Author Topic: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster  (Read 81921 times)

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Offline 24isours

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2014, 08:37:18 pm »
Quote
One thing that rarely gets discussed by either extreme of the macronutrient wars is that there are ways to stay ketogenic while at the same time feeding the gut bacteria. I've been exploring my notes on that a bit in the last few days. It's not necessary to starve the gut bacteria to stay ketogenic, so I don't see the point of starving them.

Absolutely and that would be the middle ground you talk about. A middle ground to me if I were to add some carbs back into my diet would probably include no more than 20-30 grams of carbohydrate. My fat and protein macro would stay the same. Usually anywhere between 20-60 grams of carbohydrates will throw someone out of ketosis.

Quote
Thanks, I'm not so much interested in persuading folks like you who seem to be doing well (who knows, maybe you are doing a type of ketogenic diet that works and doesn't starve the gut bugs) as I am in sharing some concerning info with the folks who are noticing problems (like one or more of high and rising FBG and post-prandial BG, basal temp. below 97.8, poor carb tolerance, cold extremities, etc.) and only seeing people tell them to keep doing more of the same, or "just eat more fat," or take megadoses of Mg or iodine, or such.

I suspect that eating raw and eating plenty of organs helps avoid the problems of VLC/ZC, but I don't have strong evidence re: that. It's more of a hunch. It doesn't seem to be entirely protective, however, because even Lex Rooker, a longtimer raw VLCer, and one of the more successful ones, reported high FBG and somewhat high A1C, IIRC.

There is no need to persuade me as I am open minded, believe it or not... haha. Those symptoms to me really do sound like thyroid imbalances and research shows most people are deficient in Iodine. I'm sure these people would benefit from eating seaweed or taking some extra Iodine. Btw, I am not recommending megadoses, three to six milligrams for someone on a RPD should be plenty. Even Lex's high FBG can be improved by including some in his diet. I know he did start supplementing for a while ( I believe in megadoses which I find completely unnecessary for someone on a RPD) but I think that was after he had his A1C/FBG checked. I suggest you look into all the positive results Dr. Brownstein and Dr. Abraham had with Iodine supplementation. Results have gone as far as reversing diabetes in some patients.
3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline 24isours

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2014, 08:44:45 pm »
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Could you give us clue as where about this sharp but absolutely critical threshold between ZC and very VLC would stand? Is 1 ppm (part per million) of carbs already VLC? Or would 0.01% of carbs be a minimum to cross the borderline between the ZC inferno and the VLC paradise? Or is it 1%? 10%? Percents in weight? In volume? In calories?

1 ppm... bhahaha  ;D

I would say,

ZC:     Meat, fat, organs - along the ranges of 75-85% of calories in fat and the rest protein.
VLC:   70-80% of calories from fat maybe around 5% from carbs the rest from protein..

3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline Inger

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2014, 10:28:42 pm »
I am many days ZC (0 carbs) and many days VLC. In summer/fall I can eat me full on wild berries.... I eat and eat and eat until I want no more. But the wild berries here have very little carbs... and they are crazy delicious!!! I never ever had any issues eating those. But, I cannot even eat apples from our own garden without reacting in some way. Cultivated fruit for me = not healthy. My own N=1

This discussion is getting pretty funny LOL
I am thinking like Van and 24isours, it is not about ZC and VLC, it is about being able to burn fat for fuel/ketosis. And not NEEDING carbs, but just feel great having none at all. No carb cravings. No hunger pangs. No blood sugar swings.

IMO a healthy human is able to do that without issues. Because we have faced it all the way during the evolution... times when we had nothing else as meat/fat/seafood to eat or even worse... nothing at all so we had to live on our own fat reserves. I 100% believe we are adapted to do this. And I think it is good for us too. Look how many people have started to eat LCHF here in Scandinavia, and they are thriving. They eat cooked! Especially people who live in countries with a winter season are very well adapted to this. But even in Africa etc. are times of the year where is little or no fruits to find (dry periods etc)

For me, the unnatural way is to eat heavily cultivated, overly sweet and big fruits... from around the world... totally unnatural to the climate we might live in or the season we are in. what is natural about that, in the end?

Do they taste good? Oh yes! That is why I was not able to quit eating the either. I was addicted to those sweeties  -[
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 02:10:52 am by Inger »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2014, 10:48:41 pm »
So, according to you and contrary to what Van an 24isours say, there's a fundamental difference between the outcome with raw very low carb (RVLC) which is absolutely fine and is diametrically opposed to raw zero carb (RZC), which often results in total disasters. Do I get it right this time?  :)

Could you give us clue as where about this sharp but absolutely critical threshold between ZC and very VLC would stand? Is 1 ppm (part per million) of carbs already VLC? Or would 0.01% of carbs be a minimum to cross the borderline between the ZC inferno and the VLC paradise? Or is it 1%? 10%? Percents in weight? In volume? In calories?

Not exactly. From what I have come across , RZC  results in many disasters as well as  many successes. RVLC reports very, very few problems, by contrast. No idea of what the dividing line is for each person as everyone is different. In my own case, I got away with just one banana a week or so and still did absolutely  fine on an RVLC diet. Who knows? Maybe all I need to be fine is 5 blueberries a week or so of carbs?
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Offline Inger

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #129 on: February 11, 2014, 11:24:30 pm »
even the native Americans that were pretty much ZC most of the year ate wild berries and greens and plants etc. so there might be something to it that we need those too, for optimal health. I have never been without them for long time either. I believe in using everything in nature (the natural stuff not the cultivated) but those have so little carbs you pretty much run on fat anyways.

Offline raw

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2014, 11:54:36 pm »
My kids and me myself consume regularly cultivated imported fruits. Which is NO GOOD. But parents are involved, I mean my parents. Even though they see the great result of being raw paleo dieters, still they keep reminding me that my kids are far from getting all fancy food out there. It's like a punishment for my kids. And telling me that they will break this rules (just eating raw uncooked animals ) when they will grow up more. I can imagine my self and my kids that it is possible and might be the better way to live just depending on free wild food in forest. What is carb? No need for anything... It has many proves in the past where men get lost in nature, they simply  relying on nature days, weeks, months and yrs , they survive well miraculously. Most of the time those  men are not on any pacific RPD.... The same way, me and my family never done RPD before and we started this diet trying high meat before raw meat. Nothing is written on stone.....
bugs or country chickens

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2014, 08:08:27 pm »
I get TSH, Vitamin D, and a few other blood tests done 2 - 4 times per year. My Vitamin D levels have ranged between 50 and 90 for the last 3 years. My TSH didn't budge with iodine supplementation at any level.
Thanks for sharing that, eveheart.

I haven't been seeing nearly as many success stories from iodine use as I have been from RS, such as with FBG. Like Lex Rooker and me, other VLCers and ZCers have also reported high and rising FBG:
Quote
For zero-carbers over 50, the fasting blood glucose was often somewhere between 95 and 110 mg/dl and could even go as high as the high teens. http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html
Famous VLCers Bear Stanley and Peter of Hyperlipid are a couple of the better-known examples of high FBG: http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/archive/index.php/thread-779-3.html
 
Iodine didn't help with my FBG or post-meal BG, nor with Lex's (I think Lex reported it as averaging over 100 mg/dl, IIRC), AFAIK, whereas RS quickly and easily started working for me. Hasn't Lex been using iodine for some time now? It would be good to get an update on that from him.

I had indeed seen the positive reports re: Brownstein, Abraham and past positive comments about iodine in this forum, which is part of why I tried iodine. Brownstein was mentioned here, for example:
Lex Rooker’s “5  iodine” is the same as that given by Brownstein (from “Iodine Why You Need It” 4th Edition page 55):
“Dr Lugol began using a solution termed “Lugol’s Iodine” that was a mixture of 5% iodine and 10% potassium iodide in water (...) Two drops of Lugol’s solution (0.1ml) contains 5mg of iodine and 7.5mg of iodide.”
I was particularly intrigued by Lex's report of a slight improvement in his PSA (though unfortunately no effect on his "prostate size, growth, or symptoms" - http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/msg114579/#msg114579). Yet I found RS to work much better for me on FBG and other health metrics.

Quote
"The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for adult men and women is 150 µg/day. The median intake of iodine from food in the United States is approximately 240 to 300 µg/day for men and 190 to 210 µg/day for women. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 1,100 µg/day (1.1 mg/day), a value based on serum thyroptropin concentration in response to varying levels of ingested iodine." http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10026&page=258
As this shows, whether one considers three to six milligrams of iodine per day to be a megadose or not (the term was used here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879 - but if that's not acceptable, is "high dose" an acceptable term to use?), it's way more than what is ingested by most people. So the question becomes, why do some people believe they need such unusually high intakes to maintain such things as normal FBG that others do not need high intakes of iodine for?

There are other key factors to consider beyond carb intake and iodine, such as whether the good gut bacteria are being fed sufficiently, and they reportedly feed on prebiotics. So one would presumably also need to get enough prebiotics and not just carbs. A wild diet that includes plenty of plant foods and honey naturally contains lots of prebiotics. The more one restricts plant food intake, the more difficult it becomes to get enough.

One of the more important prebiotics found in raw wild foods that have been consumed by humans for millions of years seems to be resistant starch. Once one recognizes that, then the question becomes how much is enough and how much is optimal? I've seen figures ranging from 15-50 g per day, IIRC. Some studies reported benefits from intakes of 15-30 grams per day (links for a couple of those studies and other basic RS info is available at this summary page: http://authoritynutrition.com/resistant-starch-101).

Based on my experience and that of others, it seems that some health metrics can also help determine whether one's gut bugs are well fed, such as FBG, post-meal BG, basal temperature, warmth of extremities and overall warmth, resting heart rate, sleep quality, dream recall, food sensitivities/tolerance, Bristol stool scale, labido, ....

even the native Americans that were pretty much ZC most of the year ate wild berries and greens and plants etc. so there might be something to it that we need those too, for optimal health.
Exactly, Inger. The lowest average annual carb intake I've seen reported for any human society was a Greenland Inuit tribe at 2%. Anyone going below that is engaging in a novel experiment, and without the aid of the large livers of the Inuit and their special foods that are unobtainable in the USA.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline 24isours

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Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2014, 09:55:35 pm »
    Quote
    As this shows, whether one considers three to six milligrams of iodine per day to be a megadose or not (the term was used here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879 - but if that's not acceptable, is "high dose" an acceptable term to use?), it's way more than what is ingested by most people. So the question becomes, why do some people believe they need such unusually high intakes to maintain such things as normal FBG that others do not need high intakes of iodine for?

    Yes, it is way more ingested by most people but has been proven to be one the most deficient minerals in ones' diet.
    I've already provided a link of research that shows low carb diets slowing down the production of T3 (thyroid hormone) - which has a large influence on glucose metabolism. Let me break down my hypothesis:

    • Carbohydrates Stimulate Thyroid Hormone (including RS as it is a carb)
    • Low Carbohydrate Diets slow production of T3 (Thyroid Hormone)
      • Thyroid Hormone is a huge player in blood glucose regulation
      • Iodine Deficiency is extremely common
        • Iodine Sufficiency leads to normalization of thyroid hormone production
        • TSH Levels can come back 'normal' on those deficient in Iodine in their blood work

      Quote
      Iodine didn't help with my FBG or post-meal BG, nor with Lex's (I think Lex reported it as averaging over 100 mg/dl, IIRC), AFAIK, whereas RS quickly and easily started working for me. Hasn't Lex been using iodine for some time now? It would be good to get an update on that from him.

      Did you or Lex take it in high enough doses long enough to reach sufficiency? Tests results would most likely not improve considerably until sufficiency levels are reached. Doses of 50mg for 3 months can be used to reach sufficiency.
      ------

      Of course this is all a hypothesis and I haven't gotten blood work since becoming Iodine sufficient and starting my RZC diet but I think one is in order.


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    *Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

    Offline Iguana

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #133 on: February 15, 2014, 07:01:56 am »
    This discussion is getting pretty funny LOL

    Ha, ha! We’ve got to have some fun, don’t we?  ;D

    1 ppm... bhahaha  ;D
    I would say,
    ZC:     Meat, fat, organs - along the ranges of 75-85% of calories in fat and the rest protein.
    VLC:   70-80% of calories from fat maybe around 5% from carbs the rest from protein..

    Thanks. “1 ppm”, I was  kidding.  ;)

    Still I have a big problem with all those numbers, analysis and intellectual attempts to govern one’s food intake because they are based on our current tremendously incomplete knowledge, our poor understanding of the living processes and their almost infinitely complex interactions. It typically belongs to the way of thinking (“we know and we can”)  of the civilized men who think we are the masters of nature. No, sorry we don’t know! We are not the masters of nature: nature is our master!

    As Eveheart excellently puts it:
    That's where I am doubtful about long-term ZC as a true paleolithic eating practice. With tasty, attractive, great-smelling plant foods covering much of the face of the earth, which paleolithic parents would have warned their paleolithic children, "Don't eat those berries, you've already had 100g when you ate that tuber. Here, chew on this fat instead. Yummy!" They knew that bees meant honey. They knew that certain clumps of weeds meant tasty tubers down below. I don't need research studies to know this - just look at your own children as they explore their world by taste!

    Moreover, some home erectus for example, could not only find berries but also some of the biggest and sweetest fruits on the planet such as cempedaks. I guess they didn’t care about ketosis… Even myself didn’t know about it before reading this forum!  Still I don’t know precisely what contains the different foods I eat and I don’t care.  :)
    Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

    Offline van

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #134 on: February 16, 2014, 03:03:07 am »
    I think you're missing the point on measuring, weights etc..   Just as you have a few certain guidelines in instincto,, not too much red meat, go easy on the fruits, etc..  (presumably because of collected prior experience)  some here are curious about how much is too much when it comes to say meat or fat, or the ratio of each.     I doubt many here actually weigh out each meal, but use weights occasionally as a reference or as a way of collecting experience.   
       As regards being in a state of ketosis...  yes I'm sure early man/woman didn't care much.   When there was food around they ate it.  Just as you do.  That doesn't preclude the obvious possibility that they were forced into ketosis when carbs were scarce. And I'd be willing to venture that they noticed the difference when they were in ketosis and when they'd exit.  But as to whether they put two and two together,  who knows?     Something that it appears you've never experienced and are unwilling to experiment with, but continue to offer opinions about nevertheless.   And my opinion is that until you'd ever experience ketosis you won't care to.     Which brings me to a couple of recent findings that at least I've seen in the last week.. and that is the growing evidence that we can become addicted as much to sugar as drugs or alcohol, that the brain has addictive pleasure spots.  So far I haven't seen any evidence either way of what form of sugar they are making the statement for.    But it does make me think back some years of how I used to defend my belief in sugary fruits.   I had to do a cold turkey to even begin to experiment.     And my present day assumption is that those either from genetic limitations or from years of abusing one's body through any kind of sugar/carb abuse ending up with higher amounts of insulin resistance, will find immediate favor with moving towards ketosis.   And probably those like  yourself who hasn't abused your body with sugar are more than comfortable with fueling with sugar.    In other words, many do what we need to do,, and some never will. 

    Offline PaleoPhil

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #135 on: February 16, 2014, 10:40:00 pm »
    @24isours, As I mentioned in the excerpt of mine you quoted, Lex has been taking 100mg iodine and he has been doing so for much more than 3 months. You can read about it in his journal. He reported following a protocol based on the work work of the Drs. Abraham and Brownstein that you are recommending.

    My FBG and basal temp quickly and dramatically improved aftering adding more RS to my diet, whereas no dose of iodine (including Lugol's solution), even more than 100mg, had any effect from months of taking it. At this point I'm not seeing the point of continued iodine supplementation, though I have leftover Lugol's and other sources, so I may use some now and then, but I'll probably go with mostly food sources. While there could be hidden benefits like Lex's slight PSA improvement, once I started seeing benefits from RS, I lost interest in supplemental iodine. If I get a bad PSA score in the future, I might reconsider.

    Why would I want to do a diet that's so low in carbs that it slows down the production of T3 and then take unnaturally high doses of iodine to offset that? Why wouldn't I just do like Iguana, GCB, GoodSamaritan, Eric, Brady, Lowenherz, Danny Roddy (who was briefly active at the forum in the past and tried Lex Rooker's basic approach with poor results), Spanish Caravan and others and try to eat a more natural diet that doesn't suppress T3? Even Inger at least eats wild berries and greens in summer and Eveheart tries to get iodine from seaweed and seafood instead of high dose supplements from nonfood sources.

    I find health results (which biomarkers can help track, like blood work, BG measures, temperature, resting heart rate, blood oxygen saturation, and gut microbiome) more persuasive than hypotheses. Lex Rooker's slight improvement in his PSA number helped interest me in supplemental iodine (in part because a close relative has elevated PSA). If you do get some tests done, I hope you'll share your results. I wouldn't expect them to be as detailed or thorough as Lex's data, nor do I go to that extent myself. I'm hoping your results will be good and I'm hoping that I didn't do any serious long-term damage by not getting much RS for years. Fingers crossed. Who knows, maybe if your test results are stellar I'll get more interested in supplemental iodine again.
    « Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 11:05:57 pm by PaleoPhil »
    >"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
    >"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
    >Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
    Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

    Offline van

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #136 on: February 16, 2014, 11:57:18 pm »
    Phil, I am wondering if you are still using goodly amounts of honey, fermented or other?

    Offline Johan August

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #137 on: February 17, 2014, 02:04:48 am »
     I have just checked Brownstein's book on iodine and he does not mention FBG or anything related.

    I have taken Lugol's iodine for about two years now, beginning after taking an iodine loading test which showed that I was  deficient. What was, and is important to me is iodine's recognized protection value against prostate and breast cancers. I think that it is a bit misguided to take a high dose of iodine and expect it to do anything much about your FBG  and then abandon iodine supplementation when it fails to improve your FBG.


    Offline eveheart

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #138 on: February 17, 2014, 03:29:43 am »
    I have just checked Brownstein's book on iodine and he does not mention FBG or anything related.

    Dr. Brownstein is the thyroid guy; Dr. Bernstein is the diabetes guy (if this was the source of your confusion).

    Quote
    Even Inger at least eats wild berries and greens in summer and Eveheart tries to get iodine from seaweed and seafood instead of high dose supplements from nonfood sources.

    For the record, I never eat a ZC diet, only VLC - low enough to manage my insulin release and blood sugar levels. I consider VLC to be therapeutic, not paleo, if you understand the distinction.

    "I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

    Offline Johan August

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #139 on: February 17, 2014, 04:07:51 am »


    I don't think I am confusing them. I have Richard K Bernstein's book in front of me and he does not mention iodine in the index; I have read parts of his book, not all the parts relating to type 1 diabetes and the practical issues relating to it. I'm not sure what you mean. My ;point was even if there were a good reason for taking iodine for FBG, which I know nothing about, there are other excellent reasons for continuing taking it for reasons not directly related to FBG.

    Offline Iguana

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #140 on: February 17, 2014, 05:10:25 am »
    Something that it appears you've never experienced and are unwilling to experiment with, but continue to offer opinions about nevertheless.   And my opinion is that until you'd ever experience ketosis you won't care to.

    1. Why would I be a guinea pig?

    2. Even if I would, I couldn’t. As I told you – you even acknowledged that — I’ve never found enough suitable animal fat to fed my hunger in a sustainable way, and when I have some, I can’t eat more than I’m able to digest anyway.

    3. I don’t have the necessary knowledge: I don’t know exactly which foods contain or don’t contain carbs.

    4. Such an experiment would not prove much: at most that we can survive or even live quite well and feel great for a while without carbs. We already know that.

    5. I can’t experiment every possible variants of diet: it would take several lifetimes.

    6. What matters is what happens in the long run. A whole lot of people live well and feel perfectly healthy on a mainly cooked standard diet. What does it prove?

    Quote
       Which brings me to a couple of recent findings that at least I've seen in the last week.. and that is the growing evidence that we can become addicted as much to sugar as drugs or alcohol, that the brain has addictive pleasure spots.

    Such studies are based on the current and wrong belief that something wild and unprocessed, “primal”, can taste good but be bad for our health. I explained it here a few days ago:

    Gluttony doesn’t exist in normal, natural (raw paleo) situations. It’s rather the expression of our dietary instinct. 

    Yes, he wasn’t thinking about raw paleo in writing that paragraph and he’s of course in the ubiquitous current paradigm that something can taste good while being bad for our health. But this contradiction — which impregnate our whole culture and society in almost every aspect — falls with the instinctive raw paleo diet. Unprocessed wild foods either taste bad and are noxious or taste good and are beneficial.

    (...) we can eat too much of domestic animal meats such as beef and lamb, as well as we can eat to much of cultivated fruits. This doesn’t happen with unprocessed, unmixed wild foods.

    The paradox that sometimes good = bad  or  bad = good doesn’t exist in natural conditions: if it had been prevalent, animal life on this planet wouldn’t have flourished and we wouldn’t be here.

    Think about it, guys. The consequences in all social sciences and even in philosophy (ethics) are tremendous. We finally have a coherent ethic, based on facts. It’s an awesome fundamental revolution!

    An outstanding professor of philosophy told us about GCB : “ If our civilization survives, I think he’ll be recognized in the future as one of the greatest thinker of history”.

    Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

    Offline PaleoPhil

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #141 on: February 17, 2014, 05:18:13 am »
    @Van, Yes, I still consume small amounts of RF honey. It provides some nice benefit to my scalp and skin even in small amounts and it's tasty to boot (yet doesn't give me cravings, interestingly). That's a keeper. :)

    I have just checked Brownstein's book on iodine and he does not mention FBG or anything related.

    I have taken Lugol's iodine for about two years now, beginning after taking an iodine loading test which showed that I was  deficient. What was, and is important to me is iodine's recognized protection value against prostate and breast cancers. I think that it is a bit misguided to take a high dose of iodine and expect it to do anything much about your FBG  and then abandon iodine supplementation when it fails to improve your FBG.

    I wasn't claiming that Lugol's is a treatment for FBG, nor that FBG is mentioned in Brownstein's (nor Bernstein's) book. I was responding to the FBG claim from 24isours, such as here:
    Those symptoms to me really do sound like thyroid imbalances and research shows most people are deficient in Iodine. I'm sure these people would benefit from eating seaweed or taking some extra Iodine. Btw, I am not recommending megadoses, three to six milligrams for someone on a RPD should be plenty. Even Lex's high FBG can be improved by including some in his diet. I know he did start supplementing for a while ( I believe in megadoses which I find completely unnecessary for someone on a RPD) but I think that was after he had his A1C/FBG checked. I suggest you look into all the positive results Dr. Brownstein and Dr. Abraham had with Iodine supplementation. Results have gone as far as reversing diabetes in some patients.

    and his question here:
    Did you or Lex take it in high enough doses long enough to reach sufficiency?

    If you think 24isours' points re: FBG were wrong, then please take it up with 24isour, as I don't wish to get too deep into an iodine tangent in this thread.

    I'm still occasionally using Lugol's and have multiple reasons for increasingly losing interest in it (not yet completely, though) and thinking my focus should be elsewhere, but they probably aren't necessary to get into detail on for the purposes of this thread. What I am interested in that does seem relevant to the thread is an answer to my question to 24isour of why I would want to do a diet that's so low in carbs that it results in "slowing down the production of T3" (per 24isour) and then take the high doses of iodine he noted to offset that and normalize thyroid hormone production?

    I'm also noticing that people with a history of ZC or VLC diets (including myself) seem to be more into iodine, Mg and other supplements than people who eat more moderate diets (like Iguana, say). Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit strange? Don't you think it probably looks a bit odd to people like Iguana to see some folks touting ZC or VLC diets and at the same time taking or even recommending high doses of a supplement(s) that those like him eating more carby foods don't find necessary? Sure, it could be coincidence, but maybe not. Wouldn't it be nice if we could find a way to fix the issues that may require us to take more supplements than usual? What if it turns out that increasing our intake of certain plant foods might help with that and what if some of them are foods or food substances that we aren't particularly familiar with? Wouldn't we want to learn more?
    « Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 05:34:11 am by PaleoPhil »
    >"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
    >"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
    >Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
    Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

    Offline Inger

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #142 on: February 17, 2014, 11:37:36 pm »


    6..... A whole lot of people live well and feel perfectly healthy on a mainly cooked standard diet. What does it prove?



    yeah.. that is the mystery for sure. I think I know the answer now. It all depends on my redox potential. That is why someone can tolerate all kind of stuff while others can not. How do we increase our redox potential? That is the real question we should ask when it comes to health IMHO.......  :)

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #143 on: February 17, 2014, 11:39:04 pm »
    redox potential?
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    Offline Iguana

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #144 on: February 18, 2014, 12:30:01 am »
    I never thought about it as a mystery. The answer is in the first part of my point 6:
    “6. What matters is what happens in the long run.”

    Some will die of a malignant tumor at 5 years old while some less unlucky ones will live in apparent fine health until they die of cancer at 50, 75 or even 100 years old.

    Some individuals may have a better partial adaptation to cooked / Neolithic foods. We are not all identical: we have differences in genetics, in physical constitution, in health, in way of living, in luck, etc.

    ( Redox potentential: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential???  l)
    Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #145 on: February 18, 2014, 10:49:04 am »
    Redox ties nicely into the gut microbiota:

    "the gut microbiota is involved in redox stress damages, motility, angiogenesis, proliferation, differentiation, and fat storage regulation (Huycke & Gaskins, 2004)."
    Intestinal Microbiota around Colorectal Cancer Genesis
    www.iconceptpress.com/download/paper/12070119594933.pdf
     
    Redox signaling mediated by the gut microbiota.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937589
    >"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
    >"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
    >Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
    Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

    Offline paper_clips43

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #146 on: February 19, 2014, 01:58:25 am »
      Yes, it is way more ingested by most people but has been proven to be one the most deficient minerals in ones' diet.
      I've already provided a link of research that shows low carb diets slowing down the production of T3 (thyroid hormone) - which has a large influence on glucose metabolism. Let me break down my hypothesis:

      • Carbohydrates Stimulate Thyroid Hormone (including RS as it is a carb)
      • Low Carbohydrate Diets slow production of T3 (Thyroid Hormone)
        • Thyroid Hormone is a huge player in blood glucose regulation
        • Iodine Deficiency is extremely common
          • Iodine Sufficiency leads to normalization of thyroid hormone production
          • TSH Levels can come back 'normal' on those deficient in Iodine in their blood work

        Did you or Lex take it in high enough doses long enough to reach sufficiency? Tests results would most likely not improve considerably until sufficiency levels are reached. Doses of 50mg for 3 months can be used to reach sufficiency.
        ------

        Of course this is all a hypothesis and I haven't gotten blood work since becoming Iodine sufficient and starting my RZC diet but I think one is in order.



    How often do you eat Thyroid Gland?
    Gnawing on bones.

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #147 on: February 19, 2014, 09:24:04 am »
    Dang, How have I missed this conversation.....

    Lethal recipe for disaster may be a bit overreaching.

    There are subtle variations in the metabolic systems of individuals which may account for why some people, including myself, native American, and Inuit do not suffer and die from a lack of carbohydrates.

    I point out the fact that the liver is capable of converting fat and protein into carbohydrate, so that even people like myself who eat around 30 to 40 carbohydrates per day, may in fact be able to produce 100 grams or more of carbohydrate each day in the liver. Which is enough to sustain good health.

    Perhaps eating above the threshold of whats considered ketogenic has a negative effect on the livers ability to produce carbs, in people who are low carb adapted...

    Also eating below a certain threshold , as in the case of ZC my also have a negative effect on the enzymatic , and metabolic systems. Though some people may have some adaptation which allows them to thrive on a diet close to zero carbs.

    I am postulating that there must be a 'sweet spot' when it comes to optimal carb intake., and this sweet spot is dependent on a number of factors which are completely subjective and must be calculated on an individual basis, and therefore its ridiculous to argue about it.
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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #148 on: February 20, 2014, 03:17:22 am »
     
    I am postulating that there must be a 'sweet spot' when it comes to optimal carb intake., and this sweet spot is dependent on a number of factors which are completely subjective and must be calculated on an individual basis, and therefore its ridiculous to argue about it.

    Yes, there’s certainly an individual and variable  “sweet spot” for the amount of sweets  :). But if we have a sufficient choice of different unprocessed raw paleo foods and if we never eat any cooked-processed-spiced-mixed foods or non paleo foods, this is automatically controlled and adjusted. How would you calculate it? 
    Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

    Offline van

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    Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
    « Reply #149 on: February 20, 2014, 05:19:45 am »
    I never saw long time instinctos eat moderately on sweet fruits, to even suggest there was some amount of moderation at play.   I doubt that the concept was present.

     

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