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Messages - PaleoPhil

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5901
General Discussion / Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« on: July 16, 2009, 06:53:45 am »
So much for the claims of the infamous Sussman, who argued in Man the Hunted that "early man was not an aggressive killer" and did not develop "a modern, systematic method of hunting until as recently as 60,000 years ago." So Sussman thinks that humans didn't know how to hunt effectively and weren't even aggressive enough to hunt for millions of years, whereas chimps hunt with great relish. LOL Sussman, outsmarted by chimps!

5902
Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Need Tips for the Lex WOE in tiny apartment
« on: July 16, 2009, 06:12:52 am »
Thanks Lex. It sounds like the freezer will be livable. I sorta convinced myself as I was writing the last post too.

As for visitors, I was thinking more along the lines of a lady friend, who notices I eat some weird stuff, opens the freezer out of curiosity to see WTH else I eat and sees nothing but beef, fat, and "PET FOOD!?!--he doesn't have a pet!", and runs the hell out the door. LOL


RawZi, the pet food is indeed meat and organs and is not held to the same standards as those intended for humans (I think Lex said it tends to come from older animals), but Lex has been eating it for years and grassfed old animal is probably safer than grainfed young animal, so I'm game. It conveniently has a nice mixture of organs.

5903
Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Need Tips for the Lex WOE in tiny apartment
« on: July 15, 2009, 11:56:24 am »
Given my increasing benefits as I move toward a Lex Rooker / Genius ;D / Slankers Way of Eating, I want to figure out how I can go whole hog in a tiny 1 BR apartment that I live alone in. I would appreciate any tips from Lex or anyone else.

Freezer:
The maximum floor space I can devote to this is about 4 ft x 2.5 ft, the less the better. I was thinking of getting a small, 2.5 - 3.5 cu. fot tall and thin freezer instead of the usual wide and low type, but Lex's freezer is 7 cu ft so he can store 3 months worth of Slankers' meats. The dimensions of Lex's freezer (31 1/2"W x 36 3/8"H x 24"D) would fit in my available space. The tall and narrow ones tend to have side-doors, which are less efficient, though some have top lids. Should I go with the 7 cu footer and just deal with the way it will dominate my kitchen and likely generate laughter from visitors (though getting laughed at doesn't bother me given the calmness and tranquility that a meat/fat based diet gives me and I tend to laugh right along with people), or should I go smaller and order more frequently? Opinions?

I also have a very tiny dorm-style refrigerator/freezer, but I think that will be enough for me to hold defrosted meats.

Raw meat acclimation issue:
I'm hesitant to buy a big order of Slankers meats until I'm more acclimated to eating ground raw meat and fat. For example, raw grass-fed hamburger from the health store still has a gross mouth feel to me. What is the best way to acclimate myself? I'm thinking I could go ahead and buy it and just start out by cooking it to medium rare and then gradually reduce that to rare.

"Pet food" and expensive grinder issues:
Eating raw meat is already quite a social turnoff. I don't like the idea of a lady friend opening up my fridge or freezer and finding something labeled "pet food," in there, given that I don't own a pet. Lex, is the Slanker's pet food you buy labeled that way? If so, do you think if enough of us asked, would Slankers come up with a ready-made raw Paleo meat/fat/organs mix labeled for humans that would make things even easier than your method of buying chili beef and grinding together with "pet food" organs and suet? Then we also wouldn't necessarily need to buy expensive food grinders. Maybe more of us would buy this Slankers product? Anyone else interested in that?

Thanks


5904
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: July 15, 2009, 11:18:00 am »
I have some pH urinalysis test paper left over from my days working in a health store, so I measured the acidity of my urine, out of curiosity, now that I am eating mostly meats and fats. Whereas on standard Paleo it was a bit alkaline, on meats & fats it is very acidic--just one step less acidic than the most acidic measure. Yet my teeth are firming, which requires plenty of absorbable calcium to be present in the body fluids and a good calcium balance, and is suggestive of increasing bone density.

Lex, you mentioned that you were skeptical of the alkaline/acidifying balance theory of nutrition and bone density. Do you have anything more to add to the below excerpts to explain why I seem to have increased bone density with acidic urine and why acidic urine is not a problem?


Thanks to xylothrill for posting these links about a year ago:

http://www.powerofmeat.com/High_Protein_Diets.htm

The claim that animal protein intake causes calcium loss from the bones is another popular nutritional myth that has no backing in nutritional science. The studies that supposedly showed protein to cause calcium loss in the urine were NOT done with real, whole foods, but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders (3).

When studies were done with people eating meat with its fat, NO calcium loss was detected in the urine, even over a long period of time (3). Other studies have confirmed that meat eating does not affect calcium balance (4) and that protein promotes stronger bones (5). Furthermore, the saturated fats that many experts believe are so evil are actually required for proper calcium deposition in the bones (6).

....

Many experts attempt to explain how meat supposedly "acidifies" the blood, leading to greater mineral loss in the urine is also incorrect. Theoretically, the sulfur and phosphorus in meat can form an acid when placed in water, but that does not mean that is what happens in the body.

Actually, meat provides complete proteins and vitamin D (if the fat or skin is eaten), both of which are needed to maintain proper acid-alkaline balance in the body. Furthermore, in a diet that includes enough magnesium and vitamin B6 and restricts simple sugars, one has little to fear from kidney stones (12).

Animal foods like beef, poultry, and lamb are good sources of both nutrients as any food and nutrient content table will show. It also goes without saying that high protein/fat and low-carbohydrate diets are devoid of sugar.


From: http://www.powerofmeat.com/High_Protein_Diets.htm

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Protein powders are the culprit proteins

What is significant in the various studies of protein intake and bone density is that the studies which purported to show protein intake caused calcium loss were not conducted with real foods but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders of the sort used by low-carb dieters and athletes. The reason why these amino acids and fat-free protein powders caused calcium loss while the fat meat diet did not is because protein, calcium, and minerals require the fat-soluble vitamins A and D for their assimilation and utilisation by the body. When protein is consumed without these factors it upsets the normal biochemistry of the body and mineral loss results.[xviii] True vitamin A and full-complex vitamin D are only found in animal fats. Furthermore, saturated fats that are present with meat are essential for proper calcium deposition in the bones.[xix] It should be no surprise, therefore that vegan diets have been shown to place women at the greatest risk for osteoporosis.[xx] [xxi]

From: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/osteoporosis.html


Lex Rooker wrote at http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/lex%27s-journal/msg2126/#msg2126:

"based on x-rays my bone density has increased over the last 5 years and more than 3 of those years have been meat and fat only.  Milk is supposed to be loaded with calcium, however, most of the people that I know with bone density issues are heavy consumers of dairy products - at their doctor’s insistence - yet their bones continue to deteriorate.  Greens measure rich in calcium when tested with reagents in the laboratory, the question becomes, is this calcium available to the body - or are there anti-nutrients that block its absorption.  What role does blood glucose and insulin play in the proper absorption of nutrients?  By the way, my bone integrity was confirmed by an orthopedist.  I broke my finger a little over a year ago (compound fracture).  It healed in record time and after 8 weeks when he normally puts people with my injury in therapy, he was amazed to find that I already had 90% movement back and the break was completely healed."

5905
Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: My tooth
« on: July 15, 2009, 10:47:07 am »
I would be very interested to know this too. My dentist wants me to get a second gum graft (the first one failed when I was still eating fruits, nightshades and winter squashes, resulting in a second collapse of the gum that the graft attempted to fix). Could it be that I might not need the surgery?

5906
Hot Topics / Re: Your experience with raw dairy?
« on: July 15, 2009, 10:36:17 am »
It reminds me of the old firesign theatre comedy routine: "Everything you know is wrong!"

More and more I'm noticing that when it comes to what civilization teaches us, that often seems to be true. We are told that whole grains, fiber, low-fat dairy and lots of fruits are good for us and red meat and saturated fat are bad, whereas I have been experiencing the opposite. We are told that raw meat will kill us off in no time, whereas I have been rejuvenated by it. We are told that we must have lots of arch support and huge cushy heels in our shoes, whereas I am finding that no support and no heels has much better results for me. We are told that Paleo hunter gatherers were living lives that were "nasty, brutish and short," whereas I have learned from Paleoanthropology that their health was actually superior to that of farmers and from anthropologists and explorers I learned that traditional Inuit people had the lowest rates of depression ever witnessed when they were still eating their traditional foods. What else has civilization misled me about?

5907
Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: ARMY + ZERO CARB/RAW PALEO
« on: July 15, 2009, 10:21:11 am »
Quote from: Raw Kyle on July 15, 2009, 03:50:21 am
Who knows, maybe you could make a ton of pemmican and bring it with you.
If British troops are only allowed to keep foot lockers like the US troops, then there won't be enough room for a lot of pemmican.

5908
Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Can anyone tell me what to expect with detoxing from Candida?
« on: July 15, 2009, 10:10:33 am »
Coated tongue? Sniffles? I'm not even fully raw yet and I do not have that at all with raw (and still some lightly cooked) meat, animal fat, some eggs and greens, water and some unsweetened tea. Instead, even after a night of sleep I wake up with a clean mouth. This hasn't happened for me in decades.

I used to have nearly constant sinus congestion, post nasal drip, throat mucus, etc. Standard Paleo diet cleared up much of it and eating lots of meats & animal fats with near zero carbs cleared up most of the rest. My sinuses feel almost too dry in comparison now, because I'm not used to it.

Could it be the butter (I don't eat any dairy foods because I don't consider them Paleo--Stone Agers would only occasionally have eaten milk from the carcass of a lactating animal they'd killed, if at all, and it would probably often be partly or mostly empty from the babies drinking it down) and never processed dairy products like churned butter (there were not butter churns, of course).

What are you drinking for beverages? Any carbs in them at all? Carb beverages do coat the teeth and tongue.

I find my teeth are particularly clean after eating beef jerky. It's like the chewy pig ears people give their dogs to clean their teeth.

I did not do well with coconut oil or butter--have been doing much better with animal fat. But maybe that's just me.

5909
Journals / Re: GoodSamaritan's Experiments
« on: July 15, 2009, 09:50:09 am »
Quote from: William on July 14, 2009, 07:19:31 pm
Mixing fat meat and anything from plant source did not work for me - they fought in my stomach.

Enough tallow turned out to be essential, because I could not do the raw beef fat.
Yeah, tallow is easier for me too. It's not truly raw, but I can digest it and enjoy better as I transition to raw.

Pemmican was too time consuming for me and I would quickly run out, because I don't yet have a meat factory like Lex. ;D So I came up with a couple of shortcuts that are working well for me. I dip the beef jerky strips into the tallow like a chip dip--this and pemmican are now yummy to me even though I started out disliking pemmican--or add cold or melted tallow to raw or lightly cooked meats.

I love having my clean mouth back now that I finished up my remaining fruits and am back to meats and fats. At the work cafeteria I had burger meat, a couple hard boiled eggs and just some greens with broccoli and olive oil on top of it all--because everything there is way too lean and olive oil is the only fat there I can eat.

Hooray! It's great waking up with a clean and refreshed mouth in the morning. The carbs from fruits were probably feeding a lot of bad bacteria in my mouth who were stinking up the place. Good riddance to the SuperInfinity diet, hello meat & fat diet! Yay! I feel the positive vibes starting to flow back into my body after every meal already.

5910
Journals / Re: GoodSamaritan's Experiments
« on: July 14, 2009, 01:19:43 pm »
Quote from: lex_rooker on July 10, 2009, 12:56:54 am
GS,
I wish you all the best in your experiment.  Just remember, a change of this magnitude may cause some initial problems such as constipation, or loose bowels, and low energy as your body adapts to the new diet.  Most everyone who has made the transition successfully has gone through the same thing, including me.

...
Hmmm, maybe the gradual change approach is better, because I gradually adopted a higher-fat, lower-carb, more raw meats diet over time and it had the opposite effect--giving me small improvements in bowels right from the start until after a month and a half to two months they were better than ever before in my life. But maybe that's just me.

5911
Suggestion Box / Re: Suggestions needed for rawpaleodiet.com
« on: July 14, 2009, 08:24:12 am »
Quote from: PaleoPhil on July 13, 2009, 07:29:57 pm
That's an unfortunate view about Audette's NeanderThin, as it is the only book which mentions the Paleo diet and the theory of biological discordance and advocates eating lots of animal fats and eating nearly-raw meat (Audette just briefly seared the outsides of his steaks and also ate beef jerky, which is dried raw beef, though I don't know at what temp. he dried it at). So it seems to be the closest thing to a RPD book ever written, despite some amateur errors.

The books of Stefansson, Weston Price and Aajonus don't really claim to be Paleo and vary too much from a Paleo diet to be put into that category. Boyd Eaton's Paleolithic Prescription is the only other book that claims to be Paleo, but it's diet is much less like the RPD than Audette's. So up till now, Audette's book is the closest thing to a RPD book.

I really don't consider the mass market point to be a negative, because all of these books were aimed at laymen (ie., the mass market), rather than academicians and diet books tend to be mass market by their nature. They couldn't make any significant revenues from them (whether for profit or "humanitarian" purposes) or convince a lot of the masses if they weren't. Audette's book was written by a layman for laymen. So he accomplished its purpose.

I just ordered a book by Roy Mankovitz after akaikumo suggested it. If it turns out to be a better fit for RPD than NeanderThin, I'll let you know.

5912
Welcoming Committee / Re: Story of a veteran Paleo dieter, increasingly raw and low carb
« on: July 14, 2009, 08:21:45 am »
Quote from: PaleoPhil on July 13, 2009, 04:56:48 am
Hi! Just realized I never posted a "Hello" here. I'm a veteran of another Paleo diet forum, so it didn't occur to me to think of myself as new, really. Here is the long journey I took to arrive here:

Close to my 40th birthday, after decades of chronic minor health issues that were becoming increasingly numerous and serious, I eliminated dairy and gluten foods in late 2003 to early 2004 at my doctor's suggestion (who is an excellent GP from Russia with a far wiser approach to medicine than treating only with drugs and surgery). After trying everything else, including past experiments with vegetarianism and other dietary changes, supplements, exercise, yoga, sunlight, positive thinking and other approaches suggested by others, as a last resort I had inquired with him about the possible relation of dairy and gluten foods to my puzzling multiple health issues, based on some articles, studies and patient success stories I had found--which I likely never would have learned about without the invention of the Internet, the WWWeb and search engines. I first eliminated dairy with some resulting benefits. Then within three and a half weeks of going gluten-free, this regimen had an amazingly beneficial effect on my health. When I tried to re-introduce these foods I got very sick, and it didn't matter whether they were whole grain, organic, raw, unpasteurized, or any other of the excuses that their supporters offer up. Later testing would confirm moderate to high levels of antibodies to the antigen-like components of wheat and other grains and dairy (including gliadin, whey, casein, and others), although these tests are controversial and an elimination/re-introduction challenge is still considered the best test.

Based on the results of my dietary challenge and moderate levels of antibodies to gluten components in my blood (despite having been gluten free for weeks), my doctor diagnosed me with gluten sensitive enteropathy, an autoimmune disorder. I didn't technically have clinical celiac disease because my intestinal villi were not flattened, though I had gastroscopy-confirmed gastritis, other GI issues, and other symptoms common to gluten sensitivity. I didn't really care about the precise diagnosis anyway, except that I wish it had been made much earlier than the age of 40 (which is the precise avg age of celiac disease diagnosis, BTW)--I only cared that avoiding gluten and dairy helped me enormously.

However, I was curious as to why these supposedly healthy foods should bother me, when for years I had been told to "eat more healthy whole grains," so I looked into it and learned that some scientists hypothesized that people with my Irish background are particularly susceptible to gluten intolerance because they have ancient genes descended from hunter gatherers who haven't adapted to wheat and other grains. Curious, I searched further and found more recent articles that found that the people of most other European nations were also highly susceptible to gluten intolerance and that all of humanity's genes hadn't really changed that much since hunter-gatherer days, so it seemed to be more of a widespread human problem than an Irish issue.

I searched on with the help of beyondveg.com, which introduced me to S. Boyd Eaton's theory of Paleolithic nutrition and from there I went on to read lots of articles, research reports, Ray Audette's NeanderThin, and Loren Cordain's The Paleo Diet. Through Audette and Cordain I also learned more about Vilhjalmur Stefansson, the Inuit, the !Kung San bushmen and so on. The differences between Eaton, Audette and Cordain pointed out to me that this is a new field of study with many unanswered questions, which was good, because I think it helped me to avoid jumping to conclusions and becoming dogmatic about my diet--though I have never been the dogmatic type anyway. My instincts told me that Audette was closest to the truth, because I had independently arrived at many of the same speculations that he did and the examples of hunter gatherer peoples and my own experience seemed to match his approach most closely, but I preferred Eaton and Cordain's scientifically cautious approach to testing and confirming things, because of my own love of science. Years of experience would later validate that my instincts were more on target than my rational brain, and Audette's view of animal fat and raw meats as being crucial was more on target for me, though I recognize that Cordain and Eaton's scientific work in the field (hated as these gentle men may be in circles such as this one) is more important to the human race in the long run than the speculations and anecdotal experiences of Audette and myself--even if our experiences and speculations turn out to be more correct in the short run.

I realized later I had heard about the Paleo diet once before but the news report on it wasn't very good and it's explanatory power didn't really start to sink in until I read Eaton's hypothesis in the New England Journal of Medicine article and had a Eureka moment (which is also how Loren Cordain says he got into it). Following my own version of Paleo based on a mixture of Audette and Cordain's books and my own views (for example, I included a bit more fat than Cordain recommended, but less than Audette suggested) improved my health even more. After several months of gradually loosening my standards to meet the social pressures of relatives and friends, however, I started to have a slight return of some of my symptoms and things eventually got to the point again that I decided that maybe my diet was still not quite right.

I decided to get stricter again, and this time eliminate questionable foods, of which nightshades and winter squashes were two that I had never been sure about. I had gradual but substantial improvements, so I knew I was on the right track again. I decided that it was time to try the higher-fat, more-raw approach that Ray Audette, Vilhjalmur Stefansson and some of my colleagues at the PaleoFood forum had tried with success. Part of the reason I hadn't tried a higher fat approach before was that I had trouble digesting some fats and had never liked the mouth-feel or taste of most fats very much. But I figured that if I could gradually eat more fats, my digestion of them might improve--which turned out to be correct.

Since my twenties I had always been willing to eat small amounts of semi-raw and raw animal foods like those in cold-smoked lochs with bagels, sushi, sashimi, egg nogs, and eggs over easy, and recently had been eating more beef jerky (raw beef dried at low temps) and raw eggs but was skeptical (though open-minded) about whether eating most of my meats raw is really necessary for optimal health. Over time I've been moving increasingly toward more raw and less carb and have found that even relatively small amounts of carbs effect my health negatively. Eliminating nightshades and winter squashes and replacing them with animal fats seemed to have the biggest benefits for me. Dr. Cordain has since come out with interesting research reports pointing to nightshades as contributing to autoimmune diseases. It also helped to eliminate the occasional cheats of potato/vegetable chips and juice pops, and the more frequent cheats of dried fruits and fruit juices (all of which Audette and Cordain warned me about but I was too hooked on to give up until I realized that I needed to). The results were the sort of astounding success I had had back when I first cut out gluten and hope was restored.

In seeking information about pemmican, to use in my new high-fat approach, I came upon Lex Rooker's Pemmican Manual and Lex's remarkable story and other very helpful information here. Because of Lex I joined this forum. Granted, pemmican is not completely raw, so it is an unorthodox route here, but I did recognize that fully raw meat, fat and organs are probably superior even to pemmican, which Lex's diet seems to validate (though the experience of a fellow with the handle of DelFuego, and his family, as well as Ray Audette, myself and others, with pemmican suggest that it also is an extremely healthy food probably second only to fully raw meat/fat/organs).

So many thanks to you people for creating this forum, and especially to Lex Rooker, who has provided priceless help and is one of the most knowledgeable and wisest people on human nutrition I have yet encountered. I recognize that no human being is perfect, so even Lex likely gets things wrong at times, but science and hunter-gatherer culture are not about perfection--they are about experimentation, trial and error, and passing on knowledge. So I am also very grateful to the other sources that helped me along the way, even though they may not have gotten everything right. I am even thankful for what I learned from Weston Price's writings and the Weston Price foundation, despite the fact that the WAPF writes glowingly about raw dairy products and whole grains--from the two food categories that affect me worst of all and which I do not consider truly Paleo foods.

5913
Welcoming Committee / Re: Story of a veteran Paleo dieter, increasingly raw and low carb
« on: July 14, 2009, 07:34:43 am »
Thanks guys. I hesitated to do it in the past, because trolls sometimes try to find stuff to take you to task on in your personal story--especially if you're not doing great on your diet yet--and I hadn't quite found the right variation of Paleo for me yet, but I think I finally have, and it was along the lines I suspected for a while, but kept putting off because it wasn't convenient and I wasn't sure it would work well enough to be worth the effort and social ridicule. So far, so good.  ;D

5914
Hot Topics / Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« on: July 14, 2009, 07:19:26 am »
Quote from: SuperInfinity on July 14, 2009, 05:51:31 am
Why oh why does everyone want to be such a fanatic online?! ....
Well, I know you're not talking about me, because I have been consistently and gradually reducing the carbs and the reason I've been doing it is it has provided fantastic real benefits. The only change I made from this path was at your suggestion and the results were poor!

For whatever reason, it hasn't been sinking in with you that most or all of us here are experiencing marvelous improvements on a lower-carb diet than your extreme high-carb diet. Please stop criticizing us and RPD until you try the low-carb RPD or even just a significantly lower-carb, higher fat RPD than what you've been doing (with no peanuts, which are not Paleo) for at least a week, just as I tried eating a lot of fruits, nuts, fish and eggs and less land mammal meat and fat for a week when you suggested I eat more fruits and less land meats. Until then, you don't know what you're talking about. Also, your diet would be more convincing to others if you behaved in a calm and polite manner instead of like someone wired on carbs.

Please read the Welcome section which says in part, "While we do welcome disagreement with any idea, due to past experiences here, we must ask that if your sole purpose in participation is to disparage this diet or the people who follow it, that you not bother joining (In other words, trolls will not be tolerated for long here).  Also, please refrain from personal attacks and other speech that is not constructive in nature to an RPD lifestyle."

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and my diet is a lot safer and more moderate than many/most/all here....
Please speak for yourself. I tried your advice and experienced a return of some of my symptoms as a result. I've had to cut the experiment with your extremely fruity diet short because my tooth was starting to get a little loose again, in addition to the other symptoms I mentioned. Maybe you're right and the reason is the damage I experienced years ago from SAD--although my blood sugar has always measured within the normal range since I went standard-Paleo. Whatever the reason, I do much better when I eat like Lex than when I eat like you.

Just as Lex said, the changes for better or worse from diet can happen rapidly. Everything that Lex has told me has turned out to be true for me and his help has been priceless. Nothing you've recommended has worked for me. So thanks, but no thanks. I'm happy for you that you're satisfied with your diet, but to continue following your advice at this point would be a mark of insanity on my part. I hope I'll be able to handle fruits better in the future, but right now I can only handle a limited amount of low-sugar fruits, and I actually do worse on apples than I do on berries. As I've said before, I'm hoping to add berries and other occasional fruits like apples back into my diet after the Lex experiment. Lex used to do that but apparently found that he did better when he eliminated fruits entirely, though he can speak to that better than I can.

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It came today and it's extremely good from what I've seen so far. Only thing is it is 1024 pages...
Wow. Let me know if you find anything interesting in it.

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Eggs, fish aren't so bad.
If you can afford it, you could probably get some good results by eating lots of wild fish--cooked as little as you can handle--free-range eggs, greens and a moderate amount of low-sugar fruits.

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http://www.orangutans-sos.org
Thanks

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And why don't you go out and live in the savanna in Africa then and that will also help continue human life by natural workings? I'm sure many hungry leopards and lions would be delighted to welcome you there and include you in the natural workings of the circle of life.  :)
Yes! Heh, maybe you're finally starting to understand me. My dream would be to live with indigenous hunter-gatherers or free-range pastoralists who have access to plentiful big game--adopt the old ways of the human beings, before civilization caused the Great Forgetting. I would enjoy the health benefits and help them defend their way of life against the Takers (governments, corporations, PETA, vegetarians, etc.), and I wouldn't blame the leopards and lions one bit for trying to take a nip out of me now and then to see if I was good food. :D

Living with the San of inner Africa would be nice, except that their big game is growing increasingly scarce and governments are throwing them off their land and banning them from hunting. Then again, trying to bring back the big game and their way of life would be an interesting challenge, and they do have the oldest hunter-gatherer culture and genes yet discovered on earth. A more realistic goal might be to try to help the Lakota, or the Abenaki here in Vermont, or my possible Mohawk relatives in Canada, return to something resembling their old way of life. Drs. Wortman, Phinney and Rosedale have been doing that with some success with the Namgis and Inuit in Alaska (on a diet that is 80 to 83% fats from animals, fish and seafood!).

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Again, I do not believe we were designed to be predators. I could just as well say "Who am I to short-circuit the loop" the other way by eating something I never really wanted or would have caught.
Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn or the teachings of any hunter-gatherer people who remember the old ways and you may come to understand. I'm afraid I don't have the time to explain it all and one must be open to it to fully grasp it.

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I'd take the toxic chemicals myself.  ;) I don't know, I'd be interested in it if it was any way feasible. But it definitely wouldn't happen in the next 1,000 years that I'd be reanimated.
Not me. I'd much rather that my body be eaten by hyenas than made into a hazardous waste site. Why should humans be the only animals to not get eaten (though I would prefer after death, of course ;D) ? Besides, you wouldn't WANT to be reanimated after they pump your body full of that toxic crap--which is rather ironic. It's all for looks so the funeral parlor industry can make more dough. What else is new.

5915
Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: July 14, 2009, 06:09:59 am »
Thanks William

5916
Health / Re: What do you use for sunblock?
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:36:56 pm »
Quote from: eblythe on July 09, 2009, 02:59:36 am
I just finished a book called "The Wellness Project: A Rocket Scientist's Blueprint for Health" by Roy Mankovitz and in it, he discusses how he is funding research at The University of California Santa Barbara for a new type of sunscreen withOUT chemicals.

I was looking at the author's website and found an article he wrote in regards to sunscreen. Here is the link:
http://montecitowellness.squarespace.com/health-related-inventions/

By the way, the book is awesome. All about a detailed paleo-diet and detox plan that the author came up with. There is a LOT of wonderful information and I suggest reading it.

OK, thanks. I searched it on Amazon and it had enough interesting stuff in it for me to order it. Strangely, though, it doesn't mention Boyd Eaton, who I believe coined the term Paleo Diet and wrote the first hypothesis on biological discordance and Paleolithic nutrition in a scientific journal. Mankovitz seems to be a fan of the Weston A. Price Foundation, which could explain that, because they despise Eaton and Cordain for not supporting dairy products and for opposing saturated fats (Cordain only gets one reference). Luckily, unlike the WAPF, Mankovitz doesn't advocate dairy products or whole grains. Despite Eaton and Cordain's errors they are part of the history of Paleolithic nutrition and they continue to lead Paleolithic nutrition research. Besides, no diet book is free of errors.

On the bright side, the book mentions Stefansson, advocates animal fats and the author mentions that he only "lightly cooks" his meat. Of course, Ray Audette's NeanderThin already did all that years ago, so I'll have to compare and contrast to see whether Mankovitz's book makes an essential additional contribution beyond NeanderThin or not.

5917
Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: ARMY + ZERO CARB/RAW PALEO
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:34:48 pm »
I think warrior is an honorable occupation, but I would only become a Lakota warrior myself, because I think they might feed me pemmican ;), whereas the rations in the armies of the UK and US would make me sick -v and I would be unable to contribute. If they had pemmican as a ration, then I might be able to make a contribution.

5918
Hot Topics / Re: Pemmican
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:33:48 pm »
Quote from: TylerDurden on November 04, 2008, 02:28:18 am
Well, if you believe Loren Cordain et al, stearic acid is supposed to be the only "good" saturated fat.
It's not my job to defend Cordain, but let's be fair here. Since I'm aware of some of the rest of the story and no one else seems to be, I'll share what I know. I also heard Cordain mention in a radio interview that he had received lots of criticism about saturated fatty acids and acknowledged that there are some "neutral" saturated fats as well as the "good" stearic acid. He also said in The Paleo Diet that the omega 3, monounsaturated and Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) animal fats are healthy. His critics tend to conveniently ignore that.

I know Cordain is not liked here because of his concerns about what he sees as the "bad" saturated fats and about the possible "risks" of raw meats, but it is actually rare for an academic such as himself to admit that some saturated fats and animal fats are "good" and he seems to be inching closer to our thinking on fats.

For example, in a recent newsletter he admitted that pemmican is "nutritious" (though he would only acknowledge marrow fat as healthy and didn't address whether the perinephric fat that was even more commonly used in pemmican is healthy or not). He even acknowledged Stefansson. Here's an excerpt:


Pemmican as Part of the Diet of Native Americans                           
by Loren Cordain, Ph.D.
From: The Paleo Diet Update v5, #28 - Diet of Native Americans

"Invented by native North American people, pemmican is a concentrated mixture of fat and protein that was used as a nutritious emergency foodstuff, and an extensive review of this subject has been written.1 In his classic book, The Fat of the Land, Vilhjalmur Stefansson devoted five chapters to discussing all aspects of pemmican that were known as of 1960.

He described how the Plains Indians made pemmican.... The preferred fat was marrow or perinephral fat,1 however subcutaneous storage fat was used if marrow was limited.

The powdered muscle and fat were mixed by weight in a ratio of roughly 50:50 that roughly yields a protein/fat ratio of 20:80.1 Although such a mix at first appears to be highly atherogenic because of its high relative fat content, analysis of the fatty acid composition of wild game marrow showed this not to be the case.

...."

So while I'm not convinced by Cordain's concerns about the "bad" types of SFA's and think he overemphasizes them (and I eat pasture-fed and even grain-fed perinephric fat), and I think he talks too much about "healthy lean meats," I acknowledge that he has accepted most animal fats as being healthy or neutral: "good" and "neutral" SFAs, healthy omega 3 FAs, healthy monounsaturated fats and healthy CLA. That is probably more pro-animal fat than over 90% of the academics out there who discuss nutrition.

5919
Hot Topics / Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:32:29 pm »
Quote from: SuperInfinity on July 13, 2009, 07:44:25 am
Leafy greens, mainly different types of lettuce. You can buy lots of them in any supermarket here... don't tell me they don't sell ready-washed salads in the US...  :o
Yes, that's true. I normally eat them myself, but they'll go on the prohibited list soon when I'm done testing your semi-fruitarian advice and I begin my Lex Rooker experiment. LOL!

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I ordered the lastest edition (something like June 2009) of The Human Career, a highly revered textbook that is like the Grey's Anatomy of paleoanthropology.
Looks good; added it to my wish list, thanks.

If you like that, then I recommend the writings of the following Anthropologists and Evolutionary Biologists on natural human diet and lifestyle:

> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and  Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Jeanne Sept, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution

If I missed any good ones, I hope someone will let me know.

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What is this, PaleoPhil being highly ignorant and wrong Day or something? All of the fruitarian sites I have EVER seen and the message board and raw food boards in general ALL talk about how much they love fruit and the taste of it.
More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?

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...I do want mandatory social welfare for the Orangutans paid for by the people that rip up their homes and lives and otherwise starve them to death...) Seriously consider donating to these guys, you say I'm your relative, THEY'RE your relatives as well. They're starving to death and becoming extinct. 
And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.

Just because I eat animals doesn't mean I don't respect them, quite the contrary. That may sound strange to a moderner, but to a hunter-gatherer (like the Inuit, Lakota, etc.) and even to some traditional pastoralists it would make perfect sense. The propagandists among plant-only-eaters tend to tell lies about meat eaters and hunter gatherers and lump us all together into extreme charicatures based on the most disrespectful and unethical of modern meat eaters. They may have told you some of these lies. Frequently, the animals HGs eat most often are the most sacred, and the first part of the animal they eat tends to be the most sacred part. They are regarded as cousins or brothers or spirit-beings, rather than as mere food. Eating sacred animals brings health and spiritual euphoria to the eater, which confirms that it is part of the design of Nature/Creator. Perhaps you experience this when you eat wild fish. It is seen as a way of continuing the life of that prey animal, rather than bringing it to a final end.

Think about it, all animals die. If they are not eaten then their corpses rot. Is rotting in the sun really so much better than being eaten by a fellow creature and thus giving life to another? Mother Nature/Gaia/Creator has designed it so that prey are eaten by predators and thus give life out of their deaths. Who are we to short-circuit that loop by attempting to remove ourselves from it? Do we really wish to place ourselves above the gods, to make gods of ourselves?

For myself, I hope my body receives a natural burial so that I may be eaten by animals or worms and other tiny creatures, so that my body and perhaps spirit may give life to them. I like what the Tibetans do, for instance. If not that, then cremated instead of being pumped full of toxic chemicals in a vain attempt to preserve my corpse, and thus turned into a bringer of suffering and death to living things.

5920
Suggestion Box / Re: Suggestions needed for rawpaleodiet.com
« on: July 13, 2009, 07:29:57 pm »
Quote from: TylerDurden on May 17, 2009, 02:20:49 am
...

I'll also, very slowly, start doing prolonged reviews of various books which are vaguely related to rawpalaeo doctrine, such as the Stefansson book "Not by bread alone", weston-price's work, and, eventually, reviews of michael eades' books, the 2 aajonus books, cordain  etc(although, IMO, cordain's and audette's books are largely worthless as they're mass-market pulp,  intended to be read by morons). All these reviews  will take months as I have other things on my mind.
...
That's an unfortunate view about Audette's NeanderThin, as it is the only book which mentions the Paleo diet and the theory of biological discordance and advocates eating lots of animal fats and eating nearly-raw meat (Audette just briefly seared the outsides of his steaks and also ate beef jerky, which is dried raw beef, though I don't know at what temp. he dried it at). So it seems to be the closest thing to a RPD book ever written, despite some amateur errors.

The books of Stefansson, Weston Price and Aajonus don't really claim to be Paleo and vary too much from a Paleo diet to be put into that category. Boyd Eaton's Paleolithic Prescription is the only other book that claims to be Paleo, but it's diet is much less like the RPD than Audette's. So up till now, Audette's book is the closest thing to a RPD book.

I really don't consider the mass market point to be a negative, because all of these books were aimed at laymen (ie., the mass market), rather than academicians and diet books tend to be mass market by their nature. They couldn't make any significant revenues from them or convince a lot of the masses if they weren't. Audette's book was written by a layman for laymen. So he accomplished its purpose.

I just ordered a book by Roy Mankovitz after akaikumo suggested it. If it turns out to be a better fit for RPD than NeanderThin, I'll let you know.

5921
Off Topic / Re: Commitment thread
« on: July 13, 2009, 06:03:51 am »
Quote from: TylerDurden on July 11, 2009, 04:10:26 pm
Errr, Last I checked lex gave up on all plant-food, in the last few years. At least that's what he told me. He does eat cooked animal food(pemmican) and cooked meats but that's it, AFAIK.
Ah, OK, thanks.

Quote
It seems that zero-carbers can quickly get issues when even eating a small amount of carbs due to not having the right bacteria(or enzymes?) to handle it after successfully adapting to 0 carb for a long time.
I get issues with carbs and I haven't gone truly 0 carb yet, and it's incredible how rapidly and positively I respond to an all-meat/fat diet. I speculate that maybe I'm descended from people who were hunters of big game and therefore heavy meat eaters or maybe the damage to my system makes me unable to handle carbs. There is apparently a history of Central Asian peoples (such as with the Tatars of steak Tartar fame and the Mongols) being heavy eaters of  the raw meats of animals like horses, cattle, reindeer and wild stags and boars in more recent days, and probably bigger beasts like aurochs and mammoths in the ancient past.

I notice that others in my family are major carb addicts and both type 1 and 2 diabetes are common among my relatives (though my own blood sugar was never measured until after I went Paleo, AFAIK), so sensitivity to carbs seems to run especially strong in my family. I know that the Irish, Welsh, Basques and others have been specified as having particularly ancient genes that are nearly unchanged from Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Central Asia, who might have eaten mostly big game animals. Its speculation, but maybe that has something to do with it. I would guess that Middle Eastern and Mediterranean peoples might tend to handle carbs a bit better than a true bloodthirsty savage like me.   >D -d 

My people were the sorts of barbarians that the Romans and other empires sought to either enslave or cleanse forever from the earth (though the Romans probably never quite made it to Ireland--legend has it that they thought Ireland was even more savage than Gaul and therefore not worth the bother of conquering). I am of the defeated peoples. :(  The ancient and doomed ones.  ;D Interestingly, we of the ancient Irish are also apparently related to other doomed hunter-gatherer peoples like the Algonquian-speaking Indians, according to DNA analysis. Which is not surprising, because many of the North American Indians have long been suspected of originating in Central Asia.

5922
Hot Topics / Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« on: July 13, 2009, 05:32:47 am »
Quote from: SuperInfinity on July 13, 2009, 02:59:05 am
Thanks for that post Goodsamaritan.
Veganism has almost nothing to do with healthy eating. As I have repeatedly stated it's that hateful site beyondveg.com that calls anyone with over 75% or something like of their diet fruit a fruitarian.
I see, you were trashing both views and offering your own alternative, not being a troll. You realize, however, that by posting that wording in a Paleo forum you gave the impression you were promoting fruitarianism, right? Was that just to stir things up and get people's interest (if so it worked  ;) )?
 
Quote
This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread.  l)
Right you are, this is in hot topics. -[ I'm new to this forum myself, so either I didn't realize that popular topics apparently automatically or manually get moved to that Hot Topic category or I noticed one of your other threads. I'm old school Internet, so to me this is a thread and the whole forum is like what we used to call a "bulletin board." Ha, ha, I'm dating myself.

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I'm going to freeze blueberries this year. Apart from fruit and salads, almost nothing else right now.
K, what's in your salads?

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Just that I really believe it's right for *me* and in my own person beliefs... it would be what Australopithecus and early-to-middle paleo man ate.
Interesting. Was it Man the Hunted that caused you to focus on Australopithecus and the early Paleolithic, or Origin of Species, or what? Most scientists and doctors in Paleo nutrition focus on the last 10,000 - 100,000 years of the Paleolithic, because that's what we know best, but I agree that the earlier periods have relevance also. There will be many debates over what time frames to give most credence to, which is part of the reason most people don't talk about more than 10-20,000 years ago, to avoid that debate.

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That's true, and is why I'll never give up fruit.
Because taste is a major driver for you, it also means you'll probably never be fully accepted by the vegans/vegetarians/fruitarians, since they tend to be PETA-type-philosophy-based and very strict, which you probably know already. Taste is not very PC.  ;)

Quote
Yes I'm well-acquainted with Wrong ham's cooking theory and recent book.
Heh, it's refreshingly nice to find a plant-based dieter who agrees that Wrangham is wrong, given that Wrangham's purpose seems to have been to promote politically-correct plant-eating, feminism and neotenized/effeminate conceptions of manhood.

Quote from: SuperInfinity on July 13, 2009, 02:59:05 am
According to Wrongham they did cook. Steaming is just like cooking.
Uh oh, big mistake to quote Wrongham.  :o  I learned that one the hard way--even though I tried to explain that I don't agree with him.

5923
Welcoming Committee / Story of a veteran Paleo dieter, increasingly raw and low carb
« on: July 13, 2009, 04:56:48 am »
Hi! Just realized I never posted a "Hello" here. I'm a veteran of another Paleo diet forum, so it didn't occur to me to think of myself as new, really. Here is the long journey I took to arrive here:

Close to my 40th birthday, after decades of chronic minor health issues that were becoming increasingly numerous and serious, I eliminated dairy and gluten foods in late 2003 to early 2004 at my doctor's suggestion (who is an excellent GP from Russia with a far wiser approach to medicine than treating only with drugs and surgery). After trying everything else, including past experiments with vegetarianism and other dietary changes, supplements, exercise, yoga, sunlight, positive thinking and other approaches suggested by others, as a last resort I had inquired with him about the possible relation of dairy and gluten foods to my puzzling multiple health issues, based on some articles, studies and patient success stories I had found--which I likely never would have learned about without the invention of the Internet, the WWWeb and search engines. I first eliminated dairy with some resulting benefits. Then within three and a half weeks of going gluten-free, this regimen had an amazingly beneficial effect on my health. When I tried to re-introduce these foods I got very sick, and it didn't matter whether they were whole grain, organic, raw, unpasteurized, or any other of the excuses that their supporters offer up. Later testing would confirm moderate to high levels of antibodies to the antigen-like components of wheat and other grains and dairy (including gliadin, whey, casein, and others), although these tests are controversial and an elimination/re-introduction challenge is still considered the best test.

Based on the results of my dietary challenge and moderate levels of antibodies to gluten components in my blood (despite having been gluten free for weeks), my doctor diagnosed me with gluten sensitive enteropathy, an autoimmune disorder. I didn't technically have clinical celiac disease because my intestinal villi were not flattened, though I had gastroscopy-confirmed gastritis, other GI issues, and other symptoms common to gluten sensitivity. I didn't really care about the precise diagnosis anyway, except that I wish it had been made much earlier than the age of 40 (which is the precise avg age of celiac disease diagnosis, BTW)--I only cared that avoiding gluten and dairy helped me enormously.

However, I was curious as to why these supposedly healthy foods should bother me, when for years I had been told to "eat more healthy whole grains," so I looked into it and learned that some scientists hypothesized that people with my Irish background are particularly susceptible to gluten intolerance because they have ancient genes descended from hunter gatherers who haven't adapted to wheat and other grains. Curious, I searched further and found more recent articles that found that the people of most other European nations were also highly susceptible to gluten intolerance and that all of humanity's genes hadn't really changed that much since hunter-gatherer days, so it seemed to be more of a widespread human problem than an Irish issue.

I searched on with the help of beyondveg.com, which introduced me to S. Boyd Eaton's theory of Paleolithic nutrition and from there I went on to read lots of articles, research reports, Ray Audette's NeanderThin, and Loren Cordain's The Paleo Diet. Through Audette and Cordain I also learned more about Vilhjalmur Stefansson, the Inuit, the !Kung San bushmen and so on. The differences between Eaton, Audette and Cordain pointed out to me that this is a new field of study with many unanswered questions, which was good, because I think it helped me to avoid jumping to conclusions and becoming dogmatic about my diet--though I have never been the dogmatic type anyway. My instincts told me that Audette was closest to the truth, because I had independently arrived at many of the same speculations that he did and the examples of hunter gatherer peoples and my own experience seemed to match his approach most closely, but I preferred Eaton and Cordain's scientifically cautious approach to testing and confirming things, because of my own love of science. Years of experience would later validate that my instincts were more on target than my rational brain, and Audette's view of animal fat and raw meats as being crucial was more on target for me, though I recognize that Cordain and Eaton's scientific work in the field (hated as these gentle men may be in circles such as this one) is more important to the human race in the long run than the speculations and anecdotal experiences of Audette and myself--even if our experiences and speculations turn out to be more correct in the short run.

I realized later I had heard about the Paleo diet once before but the news report on it wasn't very good and it's explanatory power didn't really start to sink in until I read Eaton's hypothesis in the New England Journal of Medicine article and had a Eureka moment (which is also how Loren Cordain says he got into it). Following my own version of Paleo based on a mixture of Audette and Cordain's books and my own views (for example, I included a bit more fat than Cordain recommended, but less than Audette suggested) improved my health even more. After several months of gradually loosening my standards to meet the social pressures of relatives and friends, however, I started to have a slight return of some of my symptoms and things eventually got to the point again that I decided that maybe my diet was still not quite right.

I decided to get stricter again, and this time eliminate questionable foods, of which nightshades and winter squashes were two that I had never been sure about. I had gradual but substantial improvements, so I knew I was on the right track again. I decided that it was time to try the higher-fat, more-raw approach that Ray Audette, Vilhjalmur Stefansson and some of my colleagues at the PaleoFood forum had tried with success. Part of the reason I hadn't tried a higher fat approach before was that I had trouble digesting some fats and had never liked the mouth-feel or taste of most fats very much. But I figured that if I could gradually eat more fats, my digestion of them might improve--which turned out to be correct.

Since my twenties I had always been willing to eat small amounts of semi-raw and raw animal foods like those in cold-smoked lochs with bagels, sushi, sashimi, egg nogs, and eggs over easy, and recently had been eating more beef jerky (raw beef dried at low temps) and raw eggs but was skeptical (though open-minded) about whether eating most of my meats raw is really necessary for optimal health. Over time I've been moving increasingly toward more raw and less carb and have found that even relatively small amounts of carbs effect my health negatively. Eliminating nightshades and winter squashes and replacing them with animal fats seemed to have the biggest benefits for me. Dr. Cordain has since come out with interesting research reports pointing to nightshades as contributing to autoimmune diseases. It also helped to eliminate the occasional cheats of potato/vegetable chips and juice pops, and the more frequent cheats of dried fruits and fruit juices (all of which Audette and Cordain warned me about but I was too hooked on to give up until I realized that I needed to). The results were the sort of astounding success I had had back when I first cut out gluten and hope was restored.

In seeking information about pemmican, to use in my new high-fat approach, I came upon Lex Rooker's Pemmican Manual and Lex's remarkable story and other very helpful information here. Because of Lex I joined this forum. Granted, pemmican is not completely raw, so it is an unorthodox route here, but I did recognize that fully raw meat, fat and organs are probably superior even to pemmican, which Lex's diet seems to validate (though the experience of a fellow with the handle of DelFuego, and his family, as well as Ray Audette, myself and others, with pemmican suggest that it also is an extremely healthy food probably second only to fully raw meat/fat/organs).

So many thanks to you people for creating this forum, and especially to Lex Rooker, who has provided priceless help and is one of the most knowledgeable and wisest people on human nutrition I have yet encountered. I recognize that no human being is perfect, so even Lex likely gets things wrong at times, but science and hunter-gatherer culture are not about perfection--they are about experimentation, trial and error, and passing on knowledge. So I am also very grateful to the other sources that helped me along the way, even though they may not have gotten everything right. I am even thankful for what I learned from Weston Price's writings and the Weston Price foundation, despite the fact that Price wrote glowingly about raw dairy products and whole grains--from the two food categories that affect me worst of all and which I do not consider truly Paleo foods.

5924
Hot Topics / Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« on: July 13, 2009, 02:29:31 am »
Quote from: SuperInfinity on July 12, 2009, 08:26:09 am
...I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. *shrugs* I don't know. You're the guys mainly saying that I am.  ...
I'm not sure what to make of this comment from someone who started a thread entitled "Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than 'zero carb'" and has repeatedly insulted anyone who eats lots of land-based meat. I don't mean any insult myself, but you've written some of the strangest and most puzzling threads I've ever seen.

If you are not a troll, then you seem to be in a state of flux re: diet--searching and experimenting, which gets you into trouble at these specialized forums of people who have mostly already decided what they want to eat. I noticed that there is one thread--the hot topics thread--that allows discussion of fruitarianism. You should probably post there if you want to talk more about it, so as to avoid getting banned, and maybe this thread should be moved there.

Can you clarify, either here or in Hot Topics, what exactly your diet is? It sounds like you are currently eating lots of fruits of any sort, with apples being your year-round favorite and blueberries eaten only in season. You also seem to eat peanuts, cooked fish, occasional eggs, coffee, tea and blueberry juice when blueberries are not in season, and probably water. Anything else?

You've talked about not liking land-based meats much and loving fruits, so taste actually seems to be the biggest driver of your diet.

BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.

5925
Hot Topics / Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« on: July 12, 2009, 07:11:45 am »
OK, SuperInfinity, you do seem pretty stressed now, so I'll try to give you a break by just responding to one of your points that you seemed to aim most squarely at me. But first I'll take a moment to find something we agree on. I think we agree that grains and dairy were not Paleo staples and are unhealthy foods--especially processed versions like biscuits and cakes. Hooray!  ;D

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And why the HELL do people take "juice"?? It's STUPID.  People give out about blood sugar and then they go and gollup down juice!!!! Juice will raise your blood sugar like it was never supposed to, (yes... even if you take it unsweetened....).
Very confusing and again with the ad hominem, although at least it's mostly passively indirect. You said yourself at the other Paleo forum: "I have often picked up delicious blueberry juice when they're out of season," and pure blueberry juice is what I was drinking--at YOUR suggestion! Did you forget? Maybe I misunderstood something?

I don't "juice" fruits or veggies like a lot of people you've apparently encountered--maybe at your raw vegan forum. I know that fruit juices are not healthy. They are also addictive and I was trying to kick the habit (and I was already consuming far better beverages in general than the average person) until you came along and started talking about "delicious blueberry juice" (though I'm not blaming you, you were just the one who gave me the idea, I put it into action). I decided to give your suggestions a try before I go fully zero carb, to see how much fruits and carbs I can handle these days, and I need to clear out my remaining carb foods before going ZC anyway. I was amazed at how rapidly they affected my health in a negative way. Luckily, I know that ZC RPD just as rapidly rejuvenates the health and I think I'm in decent enough shape to experiment with your unique diet without doing serious harm to myself.

So tell me what to eat then and I'll consider giving it a try--although I'll definitely be skipping the peanut shells ;D --and this time please don't change your mind after the fact.

BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?

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