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Messages - avalon

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General Discussion / Liver to Go
« on: January 16, 2009, 06:05:23 am »
Just wanted wish everyone a fond raw farewell. I'm off to try and live for a while in the real world. I've been a little addicted to several forums so it's time to make a break. On that note here is my farewell dish. This evening- Raw Chicken Liver with Basil, Tarragon and Soy Sauce.

Besh wishes to all,
Xeta  ;D

General Discussion / Re: Urgent Message re raw foodism page on wikipedia
« on: January 15, 2009, 07:15:27 am »
I'm on it!  :D

Hot Topics / Re: Irritating internet laws
« on: January 02, 2009, 07:21:07 am »
Betamax is great! I love Betamax! What is Betamax?  ???

Just kidding  :D

What is Porn?  -d

Hot Topics / Re: Longevity- Calorie Quality vs Calorie Quantity
« on: December 30, 2008, 09:25:10 pm »
Yeah, I know you feel this way- this is about the flies  ;)

oh and the worms!

I find this particularly interesting.

If roundworms sense that food is abundant, their metabolism adjusts accordingly.  Their bodies respond to promote rapid ingestion, rapid growth and rapid aging, Kornfeld explains.  In contrast, when the worms sense a shortage of food, they make “metabolic decisions” to delay growth, delay energy use and extend lifespan.

Best wishes,
Avalon  ;D

Hot Topics / Re: Longevity- Calorie Quality vs Calorie Quantity
« on: December 30, 2008, 09:18:51 pm »
Let me add this fly to the mix.

Brown University ecologist Marc Tatar says the current study, published in this week's Science, provides "really profound evidence" that longevity is controlled not by actual resources but rather by hormones that are cued to resources (such as the way plants sense winter by sunlight changes). "It's like the whole system doesn't actually function on the currency of resources anymore, it all functions on virtual data about what the resources should be like," he says. "It's mind over matter."

fun stuff

Hot Topics / Longevity- Calorie Quality vs Calorie Quantity
« on: December 30, 2008, 09:06:37 pm »
I found an interesting article this morning and I thought I'd share in case you've never seen it  ;D

In April, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released a study challenging the conventional wisdom that eating less promotes longevity. The study found that the very thin run roughly the same risk of early death as the overweight. And now the tide seems to be turning against a common explanation for the long-standing observation that restricting food in lab organisms from yeast to mice prolongs life.

Off Topic / Re: Star Wars Fans!!!
« on: December 30, 2008, 01:31:01 am »
It was 1966! Not 1980 when 7 was on  ;D And please! You are so funny!

This is fun:

They were both great shows. STOS was brilliant for its time- way ahead of many shows and GREAT SCI FI ideas. Not always- Way To Eden puke city, but still for what they were at the time, they were amazing and many hold up today.

And only ran 3 years! With a new incarnation on the way in MAY! I can't wait! OMG!  :P

I thought I'd lost all hope, but you have given it back to me Tyler. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you  :'(

Off Topic / Re: Star Wars Fans!!!
« on: December 29, 2008, 11:43:28 pm »
I am a big Blake's Seven Fan! And that was less corny than STOS? How can you put down the special effects in STOS? Compared to B7?

And I liked Babylon 5 in the beginning with Jeffery Sinclair. I did watch other seasons but missed him a lot.

I just turned 52, so I suppose that says something. Now go play in the meat market little one  ;)

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 29, 2008, 11:34:18 pm »
As regards the comment re AGEs in soups/broths, that's meaningless as peoples' diets nowadays include a vast range of foods, not just broths/soups, and I doubt that even hunter-gatherer tribes soley ate broths and soups for their cooked-foods - indeed, they ate plenty of
meats cooked without water on spits.

Soups and broths may not be meaningless if that is your only source of cooked food.

As regards the raw/cooked issue, I made a good point, there. Very few people mix cooked and raw at the same meal, nowadays. The average restaurant meal will  feature cooked meat and cooked veg, with a dessert involving pasteurised dairy or some such. Only rarely will people nowadays include a bit of raw fruit or raw veg at the same meal.

But your point is mute. Why? Because you're totally dissing all the people! I guess only this forum can change their diet and be healthy when MOST people are out eating in restaurants and BADLY! We just pray and hope they stumble onto this site and save their sorry meaningless asses  >D God forbid someone other than the people here at Raw Paleo should have the strength to balance raw and cooked foods beyond 10%. Hell, very few people eat Raw Paleo! Do you have any idea how what you say sounds?

Long Live Raw Paleo!

And everyone else who's doing well eating the way they eat and stuff  ???


Off Topic / Re: Star Wars Fans!!!
« on: December 29, 2008, 04:24:36 am »
I grew up with Star Trek TOS (the only worthy Star Trek) though I did watch other incarnations... and loved the first two Star Wars Movies, Empire kicking ASS! Loathing these things means WAR Tyler  ;) How old are you by the way.

Off Topic / Re: Ethel Merman
« on: December 29, 2008, 04:20:44 am »
Fun  :D

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 29, 2008, 04:14:19 am »
OK, first of all, let's examine BYV's notion that since all human cultures eat (some) cooked-food and that that implies that we need it or have to have it. This is a false conclusion as the only way one could conclude that cooked-food is essential/necessary for human health and that raw food is unnecessary or toxic is if we could encounter a human culture that only ate cooked-food and no raw food whatsoever (no such culture exists, to my knowledge as all humans need to eat raw fruit for vitamin C etc., and the Eskimos on their 99% meat diets would eat some of their meats raw, also for the vitamin C among other nutrients) . I should also point out that since all non-human species do not cook their foods and thrive in that state, that humans don't need to cook their food, either.
There has not been an all Vegan Civilization either, but that's not stopping them from believing meat is necessary in Man's diet. Many claim to be thriving as you do. I don't think BYV's conclusion is false by any means. I think merely, it is their own conclusion and not yours.

Re BYV's mention of Maillard molecules in stored, raw food:- This is an exaggeration as the Maillard molecules in raw food are never anywhere near as high as those in cooked-foods.
After reading Jeff Novick's list, it appears your comment might not be true. Unless you can fins a different list- which I wouldn't mind seeing by the way. The raw Avocado was more than a boiled potato. Obviously it might be good to track down the origin of that list.

One problem is your claims are wide-spread and I don't think you can make such statements because so many people are eating so many different types of food- cooked and raw. Not everyone eats SAD. How many people  eating a whole foods traditional God forbid Weston Price-ish diet have been studied recently?

The claim that cooking either reduces or doesn't affect the allergenicity of food seems to be misguided. Here's a relevant quotation from the Wikipedia entry for AGEs:- Advanced Gycation End Products. This article is backed up by a reference to a study:- "AGEs may be less, or more, reactive than the initial sugars they were formed from. Foods may be up to 200 times more immunoreactive after cooking". This would seem to imply that allergenicity is worse as regards cooked-foods than the raw version.

Which foods though? Some foods shouldn't be eaten raw. Maybe some foods shouldn't be cooked or, too much. Lord, what if some foods can be cooked without incident? Are there any? Are we still talking grilling and all the nasty cooking methods or are we still talking 'boiling'?

The only genuine statement that BYV makes here is that eating some raw food (10% apparently) along with the cooked-food minimises the leukocytosis reaction. But since most people nowadays in the Western world don't automatically eat raw and cooked food at the same meal, this is meaningless.
This is hardly meaningless if one eats 30-50% raw/cooked. And how can you make the blanket statement that 'MOST' people don't eat raw and cooked at the same meal... ehh, okay don't answer that... but it is not meaningless! If people are uneducated about the issue, of course they won't know what they are doing is wrong. And why is that? Because, ehh OH FRAK! It's complicated. This Family raises that Family- God help me like the Bear said- Acculturation is a mighty force. And if you have read him, you'll know he says most will fail because of Acculturation. I detest people who tell people they will fail. It is not constructive. It is very possible that there are people eating raw and cooked and many are over at McDougall... and with out the meat heh heh.

Okay I'll be honest and say I read ¾ of the way down the page before collapsing from brain bleed exhaustion. I commend your rebuttal! I really do! Obviously it comes from the heart. But because there are so many variables that have not been tested, I still say nothing has been proven. In fact, some things may have been proven, but they should be listed and believe me the list will go on forever as I mentioned about the endless phone number possibilites.

As you now know, I do believe some cooking methods ARE dangerous. I am a believer in much of what you say :thumbs up:

For me to believe I would need to see studies regarding various meats in stews, soups and broths. I would need studies on various vegetables the same. Bone broths studied. I have not found these studies, Also how raw vs cooked AGEs affect the human body. Meaning a boiled potato in water vs an apple.

Let me ask you a question. If you have blood work done, do you believe the results- that you're okay within a certain range? If you believe them why? And if you can believe that certain numbers are okay- I mean over having a sttaight flat-line of 0, why would it be difficult to believe that certain numbers- say an AGE 17 of a boiled potato, might be within an acceptable range?

Do you believe the Cholesterol Myth? If you do, on so such information, why would it be a difficult leap to believe not all AGE levels are dangerous to human life, when most of the world has a different view on cholesterol.

What you've shown me does not tilt the balance away from soups broths with any concrete measure. It doesn't favor it for sure.

I do appreciate your input however.

Best wishes,
Avalon  ;D

Raw Weston Price / Re: Dr Price's NAPD Book online-free
« on: December 28, 2008, 09:33:17 pm »
Wow! I didn't know that was FREE ONLINE! I bought it a few years ago!

Have you checked out that library?

Preservation of Meat and Fish

Looks like a lot of pdfs to go through.


Best wishes,
Avalon  ;D

Primal Diet / Re: Interesting raw milk campaign
« on: December 28, 2008, 09:05:17 pm »
I appreciate you posting this link, knowing how you feel about Raw Milk. Kudos to you  :D

Wai Dieters / Re: Count me in on this Wai Diet thing...
« on: December 28, 2008, 09:00:04 pm »
There are two versions of the Diet and some controversy to boot.

There is the free acne book and then there is The Sample Diet which has become a separate Diet unto itself.

Wai the Woman was more involved with The Acne Book, which was I believe was the first incarnation of The Wai Diet. But her then boyfriend RRM decided to take The Sampl Diet, which includes no 'MUNCH Foods' and make it the mainstay of The Diet. This after Wai kind of disappeared off the forums and the scene as it were. It's rummored, or was, that they are no longer together.

I lost 40lbs following Wai's version. I ended up disagreeing with how RRM had taken over and was not quoting the original book acuratly. It was around that time The Sample Diet was made into it's own thing. Sadly, RRM left a sour taste in my mouth- ehh that doesn't sound right  :o and I left the scene myself. Still pop in once in a while to cause some trouble  -\

I also disagreed with the Orange juice, sugar and olive oil drink that is a very big part of RRM's way of getting adequate energy. And I personally could only eat one to two sweet fruits a day before I started gaining weight. And sadly the thought of eating a tomato and cucumber salad, which I once truly enjoyed nearly every day, now makes me want to gag.

I do think the Free Acne Book with With Wai is terrific and interesting and if you haven't read it I recommend it.

Best wishes,
Avalon  ;D

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 28, 2008, 02:28:18 am »
I'm impressed by your efforts so far, incidentally - at least it hasn't been boring.
Thank you, I think. Maybe that's because I'm not anti-raw at all.

Your comment about Googling is an important one and one of the reasons I'm not ready to believe your all or nothing stance on AGEs. I like Eades sometimes. But he has come across more than once as a Vegan/Vegetarian hater. Okay, maybe hater isn't the word. He's made some nasty comments about the Vegans/Vegetarians he's met at his lectures, which in my opinion doesn't count for the many people living their lives and minding their own business. I incidentaly called Jeff Novick on a comment he made because as you probably know there are fractions within fraction of fractions, fractating all over the place. His comment was that 'MOST' Vegetarian even Vegans did not eat well. I offered that the word 'MANY' was a better way to go. I don't think you can say 'MOST'- but again he was going by those he'd met on the 'circuit'.

For you because it's good to know what the enemy is thinking:
Cooking can be beneficial.
In many cases, cooking destroys some of the harmful anti-nutrients that bind minerals in the gut and interfere with the utilization of nutrients. Destruction of these anti-nutrients increases absorption. Steaming vegetables and making vegetable soups breaks down cellulose and alters the plants’ cell structures so that fewer of your own enzymes are needed to digest the food, not more. The point is that this “cooked food is dead food” enzyme argument does not hold water. On the other hand, the roasting of nuts and the baking of cereals does reduce availability and absorbability of protein.

One of the first thing I learned was about the white blood cell count rising upon eating cooked food. I remember the scary black and white photographs. Have you seen this particular beyond veg page? Do you know what's funny? When I was eating Wai they really annoyed me thos beyond people. Now, not so much  :D

Even at face value, Kouchakoff experiments not an argument against cooked food when some raw foods are also eaten. However, for the sake of discussion, let's look at the Kouchakoff experiments upon which the raw-foodist claims are based. When we do, what we first notice is that Kouchakoff's experiments are not an argument against predominantly raw diets (versus 100% raw)--or even against predominantly cooked diets that include sufficient amounts of raw food--since according to Kouchakoff [1930]:

    It has been proved possible to take, without changing the blood formula, every kind of foodstuff which is habitually eaten now, but only by following this rule, viz.--that it must be taken along with raw products, according to a definite formula.

My turn to mention missing info- and I could be wrong, but I do believe I read that cooked food, eaten after cooling does not present the same problem. I have to check into this. I do know factually that cooked potatoes- cooled in the fridge do not raise insulin like a cooked hot potato, but that's another story.

The problem we face is what is scripture and what is not. And I mentioned Furhman and those others on purpose. They may be right or wrong, but they are prominent in this whatever it is that's happening in Nutrition. People are following them- ooh, lets not forget the 80/10/10 Diet :) by Dr. Graham but he's a chiro right? Maybe?

It's hard to imagine that everyone in this Country, if you are in this Country, has a unique phone number. 7 numbers, switched around and around to achieve a different result. That's kinda how I see what's going on in nutrition right now. Anything is better than SAD. Then you have this combination that might work. It might work better than that combination, but wait! Add in some raw milk and you have a new convert! But wait! Take milk out and throw in Orange juice mixed with Olive Oil! But what if we went all fruit, nuts and leaves or just meat and leaves, or GOD! It could be anything! Some new combination that hasn't happened yet.

I'm as certain that you don't know the end all be all answer as you are certain that you do DOHHH!!! And I know I don't know, but I am totally enjoying the ride... hang on I'm not feeling so well heh heh.

I'm glad we cleared this up.

I'll try and find the cold cooked food thing just in case there's hope for you yet  ;)

Best wishes,
Avalon  :D

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 10:36:44 pm »
Last Post of the Day, yeah maybe...

Here's a very interesting list from Jeff Novick

AGE Amounts In Food (per serving)

Starchy vegetables
Corn, 20
Sweet potato, roasted, 72
White potato, boiled, 17
White potato, french fries, homemade, 694
White potato, french fries, fast food, 1,522
White potato, roasted, 45 min, prepared with 5 mL oil, 218

Bean, red kidney, raw, 116
Bean, red kidney, canned, 191
Bean, red kidney, cooked, 1 h, 298
Pasta, cooked 8 min, 112
Bran Flakes, 10
Corn Flakes, 70
Frosted Flakes, 128
Oatmeal, dry, instant, 4
Oatmeal, cooked, instant 25

Whole wheat, center, 16
Whole wheat, center toasted, 25
Whole wheat, crust, 22
Whole wheat, crust, toasted, 36
Pita pocket, 16

Apple 13
Apple, baked, 45
Banana, 9
Cantaloupe, 20
Raisins, 36

High Fat Plant Foods
Almonds, roasted, 1,995
Avocado, 473
Cashews, roasted 2,942
Olive, ripe 501
Peanut butter, smooth 2,255
Walnuts, roasted 2,366

High Fat Animal Products
Cream cheese, 3,265
Mayonnaise, 9,470
Butter, 1,324

Frankfurter, boiled 7 min, 6,736
Frankfurter, broiled 5 min, 10,143
Hamburger, fried 6 min, 2,375
Hamburger, fast food, 4,876
Meatball, boiled in sauce, 2,567
Shoulder cut, broiled, 5,367
Bacon, microwave, 1,173
Deli ham, smoked, 2,114
Pork chop, pan fried, 4,277

Chicken breast, skinless cubes
Steamed 10 min and broiled 12 min, 5,071
Pan fried 10 min and boiled 12 min, 5,706

Chicken breast, skinless cutlet
Raw, 692
Boiled 1 h, 1,011
Broiled 15 min, 5,245
Fried 8 min, 6,651
Roasted, barbecue sauce, 4,291
Roasted, breaded, 4,102
Roasted, breaded, microwave, 1 min, 5,157

Salmon, raw, 502
Salmon, smoked, 515
Trout, raw, 705
Trout, roasted 25 min, 1,924

American, processed, 2,603
American, processed, low fat, 1,425
Brie, 1,679
Cottage cheese, 1,744
Feta 2,527
Mozzarella, part skim, 503
Parmesan, grated, 2,535

As you can see, it is not the unrefined unprocessed starchy foods, like a potato, a sweet potato, or a bowl of oatmeal, let alone a slice of whole wheat bread that is contributing to the AGE load of most people. The real culprits to the high level of AGE's in the American diet are the high fat foods, fried foods and animal products that most Americans cosnume.

Boiled white potato 17

Raw Salmon 502

Raw Chicken 692

Avocado 473

And who eats raw fruit?

duhnn duhnn duhnnn...

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 10:20:51 pm »
Here is one of the best pages I've found on our friends the AGEs  :D

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 10:10:43 pm »
As the following article suggests, it can only be speculated. Meat? Fish? I tend to lean more towards fish.

There's this also

According to Dr. Stephen Cunnane it was a rich and secure shore-based diet that fuelled and provided the essential nutrients to make our brains what they are today. Controversially, according to Dr. Cunnane our initial brain boost didn't happen by adaptation, but by exaptation, or chance.

Tyler wrote:
Secondly, it's pretty clear that you won't accept any evidence no matter how many scientific papers I show you re Advanced glycation end products, links to diabetes etc.. Fair enough, but the evidence is there, regardless, and most responsible nutritionists, as a result of such a multitude of studies,  already recommend against extreme forms of cooking such as grilling/frying/microwaving/baking so that already 1/2 to 2/3 of the pro-cooking argument is already lost.
Some believe some of this AGE business to be a natural reaction. Perhaps as- I repeat again, we go too far. I agree that grilling and frying and baking are quite possibly a bad thing. You have shown me no scientific evidence regarding Soups and Broths. And the Salmon Soup I posted never reached the boiling point.

Show me your scientific paper regarding AGEs and Vegetable Soup.

Exposure to advanced glycation end products

Another reason why typical vegetarian diets are not ideal for diabetics is they are not designed to avoid exposure to advanced glycation end products (AGEs). There is a huge body of literature documenting that the high sugar in the bloodstream in diabetics promotes the formation of AGEs in the body as the sugars react with body proteins. The formation of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) on connective tissue and within cells stiffens and ages your blood vessels and accelerates aging throughout the body. AGEs are a significant causal factor of the horrible side effects of diabetes, such as blindness, kidney failure, heart attacks, and strokes.The chemical modifications of cells that occur as a result of the accumulation of AGEs are one of the primary hallmarks of aged and diseased tissues.

But the accumulation of AGEs in the body does not result solely from increased sugar in the bloodstream. AGEs also are formed when starchy foods are cooked at higher temperatures, causing molecular rearrangement. Acrylamides are an example of AGEs that occur from cooking carbohydrates—such as potatoes and grains—in the absence of water. The higher the temperature, the more these toxic compounds are formed. Neither acrylamides nor other AGEs are formed when vegetables are steamed or cooked in soups.

Yeah I know, Dr. Joel Fuhrman M.D. what does he know. What does Dr. McDougall know. What did Atkins and Eades know. I don't know.

The frightening new news is that eating foods with these advanced glycation products raises blood and tissue levels and increases nerve damage. Cooking with water prevents sugars from binding to proteins to form these poisonous chemicals. Cooking without water causes sugars to combine with proteins to form these advanced glycation products. So, baking, roasting and broiling cause the poisonous advanced glycation products to form, while boiling and steaming prevent them.

oops, sorry, Gabe Mirkin, M.D. (another Doctor)

I'm asking you- Show me the Evidence. Help convince me. I'm not kidding. I'm not talking about frying, grilling or nuking. I'm talking lightly cooked soups, even bone broths. How do you know that these kinds of cooking might, I say might, I'm allowed to be uncertain... where was i? ehh, might not simulate, as has been argued a kind of pre-digestion process??? Because of the liquid food combination thingy...

If you don't think I'm serious then you're off the hook. Actually, you might start sounding like The Bear- never finding those papers he'd lost. Sorry, that was a dig. My bad  -d

Best wishes,
Avalon  :D

It was a little over two years ago that I first heard of injected meat. I was eating Wai and although they don't recommed raw beef, I was experimenting. I noticed, while at Walmart, it actually said on the label injected with a something percent solution to maintain color and blah blah blah. UGH! I know, after that, I didn't buy Walmart meat. And made sure to ask at my local Publix if their meat was treated.

Just some good info on what enhanced meat means  :o

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 08:58:08 pm »
Good Morning  ;D

Here's a nice piece in defense of Raw Food, but tackles the 'live enzyme' myth.

Among raw-food enthusiasts, there is a very popular myth that enzymes are "alive" and these so-called "living enzymes" somehow (never supported with biochemistry) assist the body in digesting food.
     There is also a myth that foods are "alive" and therefore contain "living enzymes".  Well, foods are rendered quite dead upon chewing, and certainly the food's being digested would also certainly kill any living cell that was not killed by chewing.  If you think that foods are alive, then chew some seeds and plant the mush thus prepared, and wait for it to sprout and grow - does anyone really believe chewed foods can be "alive".

I don't dare assume this to be true, but I can't be the only one to feel that the argument that we are the only species to cook our food may actually explain why we are who we are and do what we do. And I don't mean kill each other and destroy the planet kinda thing. I mean every time I see a giant Hollywood explosion on film I expect the earth to shake free from its axis and spin off into space  :o  What if cooking and say fish eating were the catalysts needed to spark an evolutionary change, but then as Humans often to do- we messed it up. Took it too far. Invented Twinkies and Pop Tarts and Jelly Babies. Maybe it's as simple as some raw, some cooked. Not all cooked. Or, not.

Time for breakfast!

Best wishes,
Avalon  :D

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 09:53:38 am »
That was a very nice post Van.

Tyler wrote:
As for the age of 102, that's meaningless as plenty of people, in ill-health or otherwise, have lived till 120 or so. It could also be argued that if one at all-rawpalaeo from birth that one could live till  150.
Argued for sure as it hasn't happened yet. And in favor of Cornaro, he wasn't in ill health. Actually he was in ill health at 40, changed his ways and lived a very healthy life. If you live a very healthy life to 102, I think that will be just grand. I hope you do.

But I'm afraid to say that your 'arguments' are more smooth talk than anything. There are papers and studies contradicting everything and they aren't hard to find. Your Egyptian Soup was meant to show what? It was the cause of Egyptian ill health? 'the broths didn't save them'? Were they specifically making broth to be saved? And as with all things, it could have been a combination of foods, lack of certain foods- any number of things! Sand and pebbles in their food (no joke)! Why do some people swear by raw milk? And don't get me wrong- I'm not arguing that it's always a good thing. I'm arguing that there are people who believe differently than you in countless different ways.

Is your way of eating the only true way of eating for everyone to experience good health and a long life?

While growing up all the vegetable water was thrown down the drain. Boiled broccoli, green beans and on and on thrown down the drain! OMG! The horror! And people who don't know better continue this practice. It took me to 49-50 years of age to learn the atrocity of pouring away the green water. Now, if I do boil Bok Choy or Green pepper, and they aren't used in say a soup, I'll drink the water as a tea which I find quite delicious. Asparagus tea is a favorite of mine. I also like those veggies raw.

It's my belief that the evidence isn't there regarding the certain cooking methods and human health. It's my belief this makes for great arguments on the subject. What you can't do and haven't done is find the proof you need to convince me otherwise- because it doesn't exist, yet. Make a balance sheet in excel or something and show me how the balance tilts in your favor. I'll bet without smooth talking, you won't be able to do it. Because the scientific evidence isn't there. What you will have is a band of diet explorers- like Geoff and AV and The Bear and Stefansson and yourself perhaps and your neighbor all living better healthier lives than you were before. But there are countless McDougallers with the same results. There are traditional Okinawans living healthy old age lives.

I support your raw quest. I support the possibilities!

But your way the only way bunk is bunk IMO -d (for now at least)

P.S. I'm not sure I can explain what I'm about to try and explain but since I've come to believe that some cooking is okay- I just have this sense that if you don't throw the water away... if you still retain the veggies and their broth and haven't cooked it for days, then the essence of that food is still there. You can't see the air, but it moves things, erodes mountains. Things freeze and thaw and grow and rot and it's all still here, perhaps in a different form. Throwing the water out is a crime. I no longer do that. And if you haven't tried Bok Choy or Asparagus tea
they are quite tasty  ;)

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 06:48:55 am »
Here is a very nice piece about our friends the Egyptians. I don't see broth mentioned as something bad though I might have missed it  l)

I don't think they are fools over at WAPF. I don't agree with everything they say, but I do believe their approach to traditional eating habits is one of the best around.

I certainly don't mean to imply that an all raw paleo diet is a bad thing and won't achieve the results sought by it's followers. At the same time I don't think properly prepared soups and broths of vegetable, meat or bone should be demonized (yet). I'm not saying one should live only on soups and broths either(yet).

It's easy for people to read The Bear and go wow, check this guy out! Look what he's saying! How exciting! Well, think for a moment of living in the 1500s and hearing of Mr.Cornaro who again- lived to 102! Talk about that! What did he eat? A Calorie Restricted diet of mutton, soup, egg yolk and wine and he wrote a book about it! Which you can read for free!

If you could back up your claim, with any kind of documentation other than Potts cats, I'd be very interested to read it. And I would read it with an open mind. I like to learn. And as I said, my learning has lead me to believe that some cooked food, is not a bad thing. Like I have learned that carbs are not evil. It's what we do to them. Your learning has brought you hear with your beliefs. And you know, you might be right about a lot of things... ehh...  uhm... -X

It's too bad we can't all get together in a pub somewhere and have a great argument over a cold Beer or Raw Egg!

Best wishes,
Avalon  ;)

General Discussion / Re: Social gathering
« on: December 27, 2008, 02:22:21 am »

It sounds like your Family is at least ahead of the SAD game by eating Homemade food. My Step Father, who does eat processed food from time to time, eats mostly home cooked meals and just celebrated his 90th Birthday. I attribute his home cooking to keeping my Mother's Cancer at bay a while longer. I think without his cooking, she wouldn't have lived as long as she did.

Best wishes,
and Happy New year!

Hot Topics / Re: Raw fat
« on: December 27, 2008, 02:14:54 am »
Re broths/soups comment:- That's pretty clear. I mean, there were plenty of populations in ill-health such as the Egyptians who used broths, so it's unlikely that broths are such useful food. The only factors that Weston-Price noted were that the healthiest tribes both ate high amounts of animal food and also ate some of their food(animal and plant-based) raw.
It's not clear at all. It may be clear to you, in your head and that's fine, but it's not clear at all and your argument that the Egyptians were ill because of broth is almost laughable.  Scratch almost. I'm sorry but it's true. If you picked a particular broth- say cream of toad soup I'd have to look into it before responding.

Hmmm Brooottthhhhh!!!!!  :D

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