Author Topic: drinking milk and dying earlier  (Read 1070 times)

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Offline PaganGoy

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2019, 04:33:29 pm »
There are sources to support the claims made by ajanous regarding bone health and so on in this free pdf

https://www.wewant2live.com/shop/petition-and-report-in-favor-of-natural-milk-pdf/

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 04:55:32 am »
'fifty percent of the calcium in milk is cauterized when past...'   where does he get that number?   Are there labs on this report?   AV repeatedly made similar claims without ever showing where he got the information.  Since most of us know the word cauterized from movies or stories about how in years past wounds were cauterized on say a battlefield, the image/word carries weight and emotional strength. 
   Until I ever see any conclusive proof backing up these claims AV makes, I will simply repeat my claims that AV made up anything to back up his beliefs.  And suggest to others here to suspect the same. 
  Also question his statement that cream is the ONLY,  I repeat ONLY fat that nutrifies the brain and nervous system.  Come on think about this statement in the context of those peoples who don't keep cows.    Again, 'we' want so badly to believe him because we want so badly to have the Answer.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 04:27:43 pm »
They can "target" whatever they want. They base their whole analysis on survey data from various countries according to the comparative levels of consumption of cooked dairy. It's not me who has to prove that raw dairy wouldn't cause any problems. That's not how science works.
All this is solid evidence against dairy with multiple studies, not just surveys. By contrast, all we have are a few studies showing that raw dairy may be helpful against  asthma in some cases. Pathetic, really.
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Gotcha. So meat is very different when going from raw to cooked, but dairy isn't, because you hate dairy.
  I had simply pointd out the obvious that meat is not the same thing as dairy, whether raw or cooked.
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And the meat of a deer is meant to help the deer run around. What's that got to do with anything?
  A foolish analogy  as meat is not the same thing as raw dairy. Or to use your lack of logic ad absurdum, the leg of a deer would be useless for another species to graft on in place of a missing limb as the immune system would react against it, causing rejection of tissue, among many other health-problems.
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It's only absurd to you because you didn't understand it. All you can do is name a few species from animals of a completely different class. 
   
  Another false claim. For one thing it has been pointed out that the reason for why feral children raised by wolves could not happen in real-life is because  wolves`milk is toxic for human infants, due to excess casein in it. Also, online it has been reported that sheep, goats and chimps that are fed cows’ milk sometimes develop leukemia.

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How does that make them unscientific? Again, I think you don't understand what something being unscientific means. In fact it's you who is using unscientific reasoning by claiming to have proven that raw dairy is harmful because some people have some evidence to suggest cooked dairy might be.
  It is unscientific because cats were used not humans in the test. Cats are not humans Indeed, the thalidomide crisis was caused by the fact that the scientists were wrongly reassured by more positive tests done on animals. And the studies I mentioned did NOT focus on the issue of raw vs pasteurised but on the issue of excess calcium. Ironically, since pasteurisation makes calcium less absorbable in the body than with raw dairy, raw dairy is clearly worse as regards the excess calcium issue.
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This has nothing to do with "scientific rigor". Nobody is arguing that a diet of pure dairy is superior to other diets. That would be like telling someone who claims that some salt is healthy to put test animals on a 100% salt diet, with no other nutrients being fed to them.
  Well, that is at least something. You accept that raw dairy is not a complete food, like meat is, and is harmful  as 100% of the diet.
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The studies showed basically the same result on 2/3 dairy as 1/3 dairy.
  Wrong. The meat study showed that even including raw dairy as 1/3 of  a diet including cooked meat was not enough to counter the ill-health effects of cooked meat. Pretty useless, really.
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No, it was after. And in any case, they wouldn't have been fed dairy on a regular basis. Their feed was primarily the rodents and birds they'd catch, which is why they were kept around in the first place. They weren't pets.
  Complete bollocks. Cats were kept as pets for countless millenia and were fed by humans on the foods that humans themselves ate, including raw dairy. I could cite ancient egypt as an example, but keeping cats as pets not rodent-catchers goes WAY further back. Incidentally, you should know that human rat-catchers use terriers, not cats, for hunting rats as cats are not very good at hunting rats.
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You keep reading whatever you want into what I say. I didn't say there is more difference between a cat and a human than between a human and a cow. I said there's more difference in dygestive abilities between a cat an a cow, than between a human and a cow.
   Irrelevant, really. What we need to convince you is a study of cats fed on cat milk compared to cats fed on cows milk, all raw.
[/quote]
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That's because you're misunderstanding the actual goal of the breeding. Intelligence isn't always the best trait to have, just like for humans, it doesn't matter that much if cows aren't in perfect health, as long as they give us better health. Also, many of these problems are due to these animals being fed unnatural diets in modern times.
  It matters a great deal. If an animal is in bad health, then the meat, and especially, the milk will be harmful. For example, I have heard of mothers transmitting diseases to their babies via their breastmilk.
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Designed by who? God? Because if so, well then God probably also designed us with the ability to farm cattle and get their milk. If you mean designed by natural selection, well then again, we've selected the cows to give us better milk for us, too.
  Wrong again, human breeding, or rather inbreeding for dysgenic traits, is not the same as natural selection. It is wholly unnatural. Like we see with cooking, unnatural processes are harmful to human health.
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I didn't say it doesn't differ. Btw, in that link it kinda looks like they're not very different at all. Definitely way more similar to each other than all the other milks from all the other mammals around.

Also, keep in mind that the selection of cow milk may not be to suit the needs of baby humans the best, but adult humans.
  Cows milk is a ruminant milk. To get healthier milk, one would have to drink chimpanzee milk as a human. As regards babies,  most humans gradually develop more and more lactose intolerance over time as adults, as adult mammals are not supposed to be drinkng milk, however raw, past infancy.
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Looking at people's teeth is quick and easy, and through his studies he found that this correlated to general health in peoples whom he had studied more in deph. Also, look at Pottenger's studies again. Tooth decay corresponds with all the other health problems caused by the cooked foods diet.
  Tooth decay is also mainly caused by excess sugar and processed foods. So the absence of such foods, rather than the raw dairy is the most likely cause for good dental health. I am suspicious of WP as he was very selective in his photos. I mean, given a lack of dentists and the incidence of disease and famine, it is impossible for more than a few HGs to have had perfect teeth throughout their lives.
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They were also stronger than modern day hunter gatherers. There's many other reasons to explain this, rather than simply blame dairy. They were cooking more of their foods, for starters, even if they weren't eating much grains.[/quote]  It at least shows that raw dairy is so useless as a health-food that it cannot counteract the consumption of cooked animal foods.
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Not really. Bread and other grains and legumes have always been associated with the poor. In the middle ages the nobility would use bread as a plate to serve food in, they didn't eat it, they just gave it to the poor to eat after the meal.
This is simply not true. Poor people would poach wild animals to get meat. They would also seek out frogs legs and raw oysters and lobsters  and wild mushrooms, all of which were deemed disgusting poor-man`s food centuries ago.  And upper classes did indeed eat bread as a staple.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 04:54:26 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 04:57:05 pm »
AV was a fraud to a partial extent. When challenged, he made up claims about doing a multitude of studies showing how healthy raw animal foods were, and when asked to produce them, claimed they had all been burned in  a fire.  I mean, this is a guy who borrowed from the bible( re 40 days and 40 nights in the desert!).

Offline dariorpl

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 12:39:15 am »
All this is solid evidence against dairy with multiple studies, not just surveys.

Epidemiological studies are pretty much the same as surveys.

And again, it's all from cooked dairy consumption.

By contrast, all we have are a few studies showing that raw dairy may be helpful against  asthma in some cases. Pathetic, really.

No. Pottenger's studies clearly proved that raw dairy is health giving while cooked dairy harms health and causes all sorts of disease and degradation, which intensifies with each generation. You can say it's only so for cats, and not humans, but you can't say cooked and raw are the same.

Or to use your lack of logic ad absurdum, the leg of a deer would be useless for another species to graft on in place of a missing limb as the immune system would react against it, causing rejection of tissue, among many other health-problems. 

Lol? We are talking about food consumption, not grafts and transplants.

Another false claim. For one thing it has been pointed out that the reason for why feral children raised by wolves could not happen in real-life is because  wolves`milk is toxic for human infants, due to excess casein in it. Also, online it has been reported that sheep, goats and chimps that are fed cows’ milk sometimes develop leukemia.

Pretty irrelevant. But in any case, was this cooked dairy?

As for the casein and wolves milk, that's just a hypothesis with no backing. I also believe the story of children raised by wolves is likely fake, but not for that reason.

It is unscientific because cats were used not humans in the test. Cats are not humans Indeed, the thalidomide crisis was caused by the fact that the scientists were wrongly reassured by more positive tests done on animals.

Nobody claims that cats are humans. Pottenger certainly never did. It is interesting, however, how you bring up animal studies when they suit your biases, but discard them when they don't.

And the studies I mentioned did NOT focus on the issue of raw vs pasteurised but on the issue of excess calcium.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. "focus" is irrelevant when all the source data is coming from populations consuming cooked dairy only.

Ironically, since pasteurisation makes calcium less absorbable in the body than with raw dairy, raw dairy is clearly worse as regards the excess calcium issue. 

Are you now saying that raw dairy is worse for health than cooked dairy?

Well, that is at least something. You accept that raw dairy is not a complete food, like meat is, and is harmful  as 100% of the diet.

Not harmful, insufficient. Some people think drinking water is good for health. It would be ludicrous to propose that they show a 100% water diet is good.

Wrong. The meat study showed that even including raw dairy as 1/3 of  a diet including cooked meat was not enough to counter the ill-health effects of cooked meat. Pretty useless, really.

The studies showed that cooked milk causes disease and degeneration while raw milk prevents disease and slowly cures it and regenerates health.

  Complete bollocks. Cats were kept as pets for countless millenia and were fed by humans on the foods that humans themselves ate, including raw dairy. I could cite ancient egypt as an example, but keeping cats as pets not rodent-catchers goes WAY further back. Incidentally, you should know that human rat-catchers use terriers, not cats, for hunting rats as cats are not very good at hunting rats. 

Cats were not domesticated to be kept as pets. People back then were much more practical. If they kept an animal around, there was a material, tangible goal to it. The whole notion of keeping a pet for its own sake didn't develop in great numbers until the 19th century, and it didn't affect the masses until the 20th century .

   It matters a great deal. If an animal is in bad health, then the meat, and especially, the milk will be harmful.

Sure. but if the animal's health is only a little bit worse, but you get much more healthgiving milk out of it, then it could very well be worth the tradeoff.

Wrong again, human breeding, or rather inbreeding for dysgenic traits, is not the same as natural selection.

I didn't say its the same thing. However, there is the possibility that it's even better in some cases. For instance, do you prefer to eat wild leaves with their high toxicity, or domesticated varieties where breeding has significantly lowered the toxin loads?

It is wholly unnatural. Like we see with cooking, unnatural processes are harmful to human health. 

By that definition all human activities are unnatural, including hunting wild game. It's not simply the being natural or artificial that makes something improve our health or damage it. It's a little more complicated than that.

Tooth decay is also mainly caused by excess sugar and processed foods. So the absence of such foods, rather than the raw dairy is the most likely cause for good dental health.

Again, Pottenger's studies showed that no, cooked dairy helps cause tooth decay whereas raw dairy does the opposite.

This is simply not true. Poor people would poach wild animals to get meat. They would also seek out frogs legs and raw oysters and lobsters  and wild mushrooms, all of which were deemed disgusting poor-man`s food centuries ago.

I didn't say they ate no meats. But they ate plenty of grain. Keep in mind that the best quality meat, such as wild deer, was only for the rich.

And upper classes did indeed eat bread as a staple.

No.

We now live in a world where medicine destroys health, law destroys justice, education destroys knowledge, government destroys order, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and banking destroys the economy

Offline PaganGoy

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2019, 04:37:47 am »
@van
quote
" The cream in it is the only fat that ***completely*** nutrifies the brain and nervous system. Butter can do it about two thirds, but raw cream and milk does it 100%."

In the short time I have looked into AV I have seen far more misquotes targeted toward him then accurate ones.

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2019, 07:43:39 am »
Ok,' completely'.   No matter, still the same delusion.

Offline Grey-Cup

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 12:36:25 am »
Im curious about your total daily macro intake norawnofun? This is an impressive number of calories from dairy alone. What else do you eat and how often do you train?

Since I eat a lot of raw dairy and find it very important for my wellbeing, I started to look at the calcium issue that you posted in this link. http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm It is indeed very interesting. Then I had a look at the recommended daily calcium intake, which seems to be 1000-1200mg per day, which equals around a liter of raw milk per day http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/calcium.html.

Whenever I am abroad I drink a liter of raw cows milk from (IMO) predominantly older A2 breeds with every meat meal, which means 2-3 times a day. Sometimes I drink more in between. To each meal I eat around 250 grams of raw cheese. So to summarize I have 3 liters of milk, plus 750g of cheese. So my daily calcium intake is 1200mgx3 + another lets say 1200x3 from the cheese. = 7200mg daily intake. When I am at home, I have less goat dairy but it seems that the calcium content is higher, so i might have a similar intake. Considering the fact that milk has vitamin D in it, the absorption should be ok. Then comes the calcium to phosphorus ratio (Ca/P), cows milk seems to be slightly higher than goat http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/05/is-milk-good-sheep-milk-dairy/. More on that below. Either way, thinking about it I have a extremely high daily calcium intake, so I thought if I should be concerned. But then I had a look at this:

https://www.atkins.com/how-it-works/library/articles/calcium-protein-strong-bones

And here https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/calcium-and-milk/calcium-full-story/

I found quite some people which do a carnivore diet and eat/drink lots of raw dairy, and it seems to do them very well, like me. They heal all kinds of things. Now when looking at the above one could possibly conclude that a carnivore diet, which consists of a very high intake of animal protein, needs a very good amount of calcium to counterbalance the calcium excretion by eating a good amount of raw dairy or animal foods high in calcium.

So basically one could think that a high raw dairy intake on carnivore is no problem, but it is a problem when you eat a normal low animal protein diet, like many "normal" people do, as the general consent is that animal protein is unhealthy and vegetables, whole grains and fruit are better. Then you might be in trouble. None of the links posted from some of you take a high animal protein diet such as carnivore into account. So then it´s normal that many westerners drink lots of milk, but then have big issues like osteoporosis later, because of low meat consuption, as I think that vegetables are useless for calcium intake.

And if you now say that there is no different between raw milk and pasteurized milk in terms of (Ca/P) ratio and absorption, I recommend looking into this study: http://www.jbc.org/content/79/1/283.full.pdf There are, for example, HUGE differences between dried and raw milk. I also noticed that when I eat pasteurized joghurt, my bones sometimes crack, and I get tartar. So there is no way that somebody can tell me that raw milk and heat-treated milk is the same. So all these amazing studies showing how bad milk can in my optinion, be thrown in the trash!

Offline ys

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 08:23:14 am »
A little off topic.
This picture was made by Yuri in London


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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 10:27:57 am »
what?  how round they are

Offline norawnofun

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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #35 on: Today at 03:47:54 am »
Im curious about your total daily macro intake norawnofun? This is an impressive number of calories from dairy alone. What else do you eat and how often do you train?

I never track my macros, don´t care much about that tbh. I do almost daily simple youtube exercise, no proper work-out. No time really. During my half a year carnivore experiment (still counting) I was eating meats such as beef, chicken and home cured bacon. Plus eggs, raw goat cheese and raw goat milk mainly, plus joghurt if i didnt have raw dairy. I stopped lamb. I did a 2 day water fast now, broke it today with beef, lard and an egg. The goal is to no longer do dairy until my stomach acid is back to how it was years ago. I noticed that digestion was easier without dairy today, time will tell. I´m also curious about my tartar, if that will go away. I got a lot when I ate pasteurized joghurt. Another issue was the goat dairy, it used to do me well initially, but cow dairy is way better for me. Goat milk is more alkaline, I think that was the problem as I drank it with every acidic meat meal. Plus, AV used to say that goat milk is good for obese and sluggish people, and cow is for underweight and kinda nervous ppl. In my case he was right about that. Plus its not fatty enough. Therefore I concluded goat is useless to me, for vegans it might be a good addition to their plant based diet but not for me.

The plan is incorporate more steaks, since I always ate ground due to low HCI, have more tougher meats and try liver and bone marrow (raw) again. And have butter plus hard cheeses (since some like parmigiano romano contain 0 carbs) I want my stomach acid to be top notch again. And I think the carbs in dairy was hindering that. Used to have issues with butter, but no longer I found. I think the carnivore diet gave me back certain things to digest saturated fats again.



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Re: drinking milk and dying earlier
« Reply #36 on: Today at 08:33:10 am »
chew your steaks till liquid.  Enjoy the process.  Also, as mentioned, get a really sharp knife and wetstone to sharpen as you go, and slice as thin as possible, as you chew and eat fat during the meal.  Thinly sliced meat has a better chance of becoming liquid in the mouth and tastes excellent stimulating digestive juices in the stomach.   
    Never ate lard ( rendered fat ). So can't say it will be a hindrance, but experiment, it may cause some sluggishness for raw folks.

 

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