Author Topic: Constipation  (Read 2237 times)

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Offline Kaaris

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Constipation
« on: March 06, 2019, 02:42:42 am »
Hi guys. I’ve been following a raw primal diet for over a month now, and I must say that I feel much better when compared to the period in which I used to follow a cooked paleo/primal diet. I only eat organ meats, muscle meat, raw eggs, raw dairy, seafood etc. Water intake has drastically been reduced, as I naturally don’t feel the need to drink water. i would say I drink about 250 ml a day, if not less. Similarly, salt intake has dwindled as well to the point that I don’t consume any salt.

I have absolutely no issues, except for constipation. Initially I was looking for a culprit, so I assumed dairy must be the one to blame. But as I’ve stated before, I don’t experience any other issues aside from constipation, so I don’t necessarily think dairy is the problem. I’ve grown taller, I have a clear skin, and I have no mental fog or mucus. No sinusitis, gas or anything.

I thought perhaps because salt intake must be relatively high to produce HCL and other enzymes to break down protein that I must include more sodium in my diet. It turns out that doesn’t happen to be case, as my experiment with 4g of salt hasn’t made much of difference in my bowel movements, and as a result I  ended up retaining some water.

Next, I began to drink more water, 2 liters or more. Didn’t seem to work that much, but then again I am not very inclined to drink as much water as in the past, so I haven’t carried on with that practice for that long to notice any results in the long term.

I thought of eating kimchi, as I have learned that these types of fermented foods aid in digestion. Even though I know plant foods are wreak havoc, given the circumstances I am reconsidering giving it a try. As far as other fermented foods, Raw kefir didn’t quite work, but I only drank a quart of it.

I would like your opinion and I would appreciate any input. This is the only thing that I want to solve, as I’ve only had fantastic experiences with the diet. Thank you

Edit: there’s blood in my stool
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 03:12:38 am by Kaaris »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2019, 03:21:27 am »
Blood in the stool sounds bad. I had that a lot pre-RPD diet. Why not try to consume more raw plant food in your diet. Also, another point is that raw ketogenic types reported hardly ever having stools - this was not constipation, just a matter of the body digesting 99% of the raw animal food. Not sure re this, but I also noticed a total lack of no2s/stools when I didseveral days of only eating only high-meat.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2019, 03:44:38 am »
AV had little to say regarding constipation except that it can take many years to solve this problem, sometimes decades.

He had many suggestions in his books, I don't know if you've read them.

He also said parasites can be very helpful here.

Personally I just eat more bland fruits for fiber, even though AV didn't recommend that.

One thing you might be lacking is vegetable juice. Even though the juicing process gets rid of a lot of the fiber, it doesn't get rid of all. And AV did blend in a little whole cucumber (or zuccini?) with his juice for extra fiber.
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Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2019, 04:02:15 am »
Blood in the stool sounds bad. I had that a lot pre-RPD diet. Why not try to consume more raw plant food in your diet. Also, another point is that raw ketogenic types reported hardly ever having stools - this was not constipation, just a matter of the body digesting 99% of the raw animal food. Not sure re this, but I also noticed a total lack of no2s/stools when I didseveral days of only eating only high-meat.

Interesting. I definitely noticed the lack of bowel movement, but in the beginning I was having at least once every day, or rarely every other day. I do believe in the idea that the body must be digesting foods more efficiently, thus contributing to the almost complete absorption of the nutrients. I have yet to try high meat but I’ve been tempted to do it. I never thought abou consuming plant foods, as they have the anti-nutrients and we can’t digest the fiber anyway. That’s the only reason why I consider kimchi, as the vegetables are already fermented for us. I’ll buy some in the market right now and see what happens. But I’d much rather keep looking for solutions in the animal kingdom.

Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2019, 04:06:32 am »
AV had little to say regarding constipation except that it can take many years to solve this problem, sometimes decades.

He had many suggestions in his books, I don't know if you've read them.

He also said parasites can be very helpful here.

Personally I just eat more bland fruits for fiber, even though AV didn't recommend that.

One thing you might be lacking is vegetable juice. Even though the juicing process gets rid of a lot of the fiber, it doesn't get rid of all. And AV did blend in a little whole cucumber (or zuccini?) with his juice for extra fiber.

Are you recommending vegetable juices with little to no fiber, and more watery, such as the case of cucumber? Or literally any vegetable?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2019, 04:19:02 am »
Interesting. I definitely noticed the lack of bowel movement, but in the beginning I was having at least once every day, or rarely every other day. I do believe in the idea that the body must be digesting foods more efficiently, thus contributing to the almost complete absorption of the nutrients. I have yet to try high meat but I’ve been tempted to do it. I never thought about consuming plant foods, as they have the anti-nutrients and we can’t digest the fiber anyway. That’s the only reason why I consider kimchi, as the vegetables are already fermented for us. I’ll buy some in the market right now and see what happens. But I’d much rather keep looking for solutions in the animal kingdom.
  Do NOT try raw veggie juices. They are the 2nd-worst problem that RVAFers experience(raw dairy is the worst). I once tried raw veggie juice and got green diarrhea c.30 minutes after drinking the stuff. The general idea is that juicing not only breaks down the cell-walls to release many more nutrients, but also similiarly releases more of the antinutrients as well. If you do try them, then mind the usual caution of never drinking more than 1 pint of raw veggie juice.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 04:55:59 am »
Are you recommending vegetable juices with little to no fiber, and more watery, such as the case of cucumber? Or literally any vegetable?

What do you mean, little to no fiber? You mean little to no cellulose? Then yes. There's plenty of fiber in any plant foods, including cucumber.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 04:58:46 am »
  Do NOT try raw veggie juices. They are the 2nd-worst problem that RVAFers experience(raw dairy is the worst). I once tried raw veggie juice and got green diarrhea c.30 minutes after drinking the stuff. The general idea is that juicing not only breaks down the cell-walls to release many more nutrients, but also similiarly releases more of the antinutrients as well. If you do try them, then mind the usual caution of never drinking more than 1 pint of raw veggie juice.

Those antinutrients would be released when eating the vegetables normally as well. Plenty of people have the natural instinct to chew vegetables, drink the juice and discard the pulp. Using a juicer just speeds up the process and makes it easier if you have bad teeth. Also, not all juicing methods break up cell walls or introduce oxygen equally.

Finally, AV recommended no more than 3/4ths of a pint per sitting as the absolute maximum.
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Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 06:09:39 am »
  Do NOT try raw veggie juices. They are the 2nd-worst problem that RVAFers experience(raw dairy is the worst). I once tried raw veggie juice and got green diarrhea c.30 minutes after drinking the stuff. The general idea is that juicing not only breaks down the cell-walls to release many more nutrients, but also similiarly releases more of the antinutrients as well. If you do try them, then mind the usual caution of never drinking more than 1 pint of raw veggie juice.

Alright. I used to manage a cold pressed juicery, and in hindsight now I know why some of my clients would report that they would  get diarrhea from the straight veggie juices. I don’t intend to drink raw green juices anyway.

Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 06:14:20 am »
Those antinutrients would be released when eating the vegetables normally as well. Plenty of people have the natural instinct to chew vegetables, drink the juice and discard the pulp. Using a juicer just speeds up the process and makes it easier if you have bad teeth. Also, not all juicing methods break up cell walls or introduce oxygen equally.

Finally, AV recommended no more than 3/4ths of a pint per sitting as the absolute maximum.

I’m in college, and although one of my housemates has a juicer, I honestly don’t feel like making any juices. It would be a cumbersome process as well to try and extract the pulp in order to drink the rest. Also, the market on campus doesn’t have that many vegetables or fruits for that matter.

I would like to ask you, do you think completely fasting for the day would be a good idea in situations like this? So as to give the body a way to properly process every bit of food without the constant ingestion of more food throughout the day? I thought of perhaps consuming only liquids, such as milk and eggs, and postponing the consumption of  meat and other solid foods. Either that or just carry on with my regular routine?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 06:21:27 am by Kaaris »

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 06:45:35 am »
Alright. I used to manage a cold pressed juicery, and in hindsight now I know why some of my clients would report that they would  get diarrhea from the straight veggie juices. I don’t intend to drink raw green juices anyway.

Most people mix their juices wrong. They put too much sweet root/bulb vegetables like carrots, beets, or they put sweet fruits in there, or too many dark strong leafy greens like kale that should only be used minimally if at all.

AV suggested some raw veggie juices for detoxification for everybody except ex-vegetarians/vegans or very long-term raw animal based dieters with optimal health, living in pristine environments and with few accumulated toxins in their bodies.

The way to properly mix a veggie juice is to make most of it out of mild tasting vegetables and bland fruits, such as celery and cucumber (peeled, always). I also like swiss chard, it's a lot like celery because of the thick juicy stems.

I would like to ask you, do you think completely fasting for the day would be a good idea in situations like this? So as to give the body a way to properly process every bit of food without the constant ingestion of more food throughout the day? I thought of perhaps consuming only liquids, such as milk and eggs, and postponing the consumption of  meat and other solid foods. Either that or just carry on with my regular routine?

No, I don't think fasting is a good idea and AV thought it was a terrible idea. To quote him, "every time you spend more than 4hs without eating, your cells start cannibalizing each other". He even suggested sleeping with small pieces of ground meat or organs next to your bed so you can wake up in the middle of the night, have your snack and continue sleeping. I'm not nearly this extreme about it, but that's what he thought. And he's someone that experimented heavily with long term fasting.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 06:52:37 am by dariorpl »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2019, 10:43:09 am »
AV was often wrong and not in tune with the real experiences of most RVAFers. In the case of raw veggie juice, DPL is, of course, wrong. Juicing breaks down the cell-walls , thus making not only the nutrients but also the antinutrients  in raw vegetables far more bioavailable. Incidentally, I got diarrhea, too, after consuming raw veggie-juice.

Fasting is an excellent idea, imo. Intermittent Fasting has a lot of scientific studies showing its benefits, in terms of extra longevity etc. You see, when not constantly digesting, the body finally has an opportunity to detox. This is especially important if one is eating a cooked-food diet, as the body gets an unusual extra opportunity to get rid of the toxins it has absorbed from cooked foods over the years. Also, bear in mind that wild animals routinely go in for fasting, as part of their lives. Basically, autophagy during fasting allows the body to get rid of cancerous cells, toxins et al. So, eating all the time, however raw or palaeo, is not going to help at all.

As regards AV or any other guru, I should point out to you that no human can possibly be perfect and so no one man's advice can ever  be 100% correct for anybody, let alone everyone. This is even more important  when one considers that everybody is different genetically with different allergies/immunities, different metabolisms etc. etc. Another piece of advice is to be especially wary of any RVAF diet guru who is asking for cash. Once they are cash-oriented, there is always some profit-related motive as to why they do not promote a genuinely healthy approach to a client, and instead encourage constant overeating or buying food  from selected, corrupt businesses  etc.. I'm thinking of AV, Sally Fallon and many others, over the years.After all, if a client gets healthy, they don't need to pay the guru any more....
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Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 12:24:20 pm »
AV was often wrong and not in tune with the real experiences of most RVAFers. In the case of raw veggie juice, DPL is, of course, wrong. Juicing breaks down the cell-walls , thus making not only the nutrients but also the antinutrients  in raw vegetables far more bioavailable. Incidentally, I got diarrhea, too, after consuming raw veggie-juice.

Fasting is an excellent idea, imo. Intermittent Fasting has a lot of scientific studies showing its benefits, in terms of extra longevity etc. You see, when not constantly digesting, the body finally has an opportunity to detox. This is especially important if one is eating a cooked-food diet, as the body gets an unusual extra opportunity to get rid of the toxins it has absorbed from cooked foods over the years. Also, bear in mind that wild animals routinely go in for fasting, as part of their lives. Basically, autophagy during fasting allows the body to get rid of cancerous cells, toxins et al. So, eating all the time, however raw or palaeo, is not going to help at all.

As regards AV or any other guru, I should point out to you that no human can possibly be perfect and so no one man's advice can ever  be 100% correct for anybody, let alone everyone. This is even more important  when one considers that everybody is different genetically with different allergies/immunities, different metabolisms etc. etc. Another piece of advice is to be especially wary of any RVAF diet guru who is asking for cash. Once they are cash-oriented, there is always some profit-related motive as to why they do not promote a genuinely healthy approach to a client, and instead encourage constant overeating or buying food  from selected, corrupt businesses  etc.. I'm thinking of AV, Sally Fallon and many others, over the years.After all, if a client gets healthy, they don't need to pay the guru any more....

  Do NOT try raw veggie juices. They are the 2nd-worst problem that RVAFers experience(raw dairy is the worst). I once tried raw veggie juice and got green diarrhea c.30 minutes after drinking the stuff. The general idea is that juicing not only breaks down the cell-walls to release many more nutrients, but also similiarly releases more of the antinutrients as well. If you do try them, then mind the usual caution of never drinking more than 1 pint of raw veggie juice.

Alright, I’ll keep that in mind. I appreciate your input.

You mentioned that raw dairy is the 2nd worst problem people experience. Could you detail what exactly is happening that makes it debilitating for them to continue to consume milk — to the point where they abandon dairy, or milk for that matter?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 08:45:24 pm »
Alright, I’ll keep that in mind. I appreciate your input.

You mentioned that raw dairy is the 2nd worst problem people experience. Could you detail what exactly is happening that makes it debilitating for them to continue to consume milk — to the point where they abandon dairy, or milk for that matter?
Raw dairy can cause multiple problems:- hormonal issues, calcium-related issues  etc. But the main problem is allergy/food-intolerance  to raw dairy. The way I see it, many people on cooked diets have so many toxins that their bodies are overwhelmed and cannot deal with other issues well. As soon as they switch to a RVAF diet, their bodies can finally deal with the other issues such as raw dairy. Food-intolerance/allergy can be hidden on a cooked diet. For example, many schizophrenic patients have had their symptoms reduce or disappear after avoiding consumption of grains and dairy, without even converting to raw foods. At any rate, in the heydays of AV/Primal Diet, there would be endless examples of people who would report getting negative symptoms soon  after consuming raw dairy, which they would, via AV's advice, wrongly label as detox. Basically,  detox does exist BUT if one always gets negative symptoms soon after consuming a certain food but not from others, then it cannot be detox but is a sign of something else, usually allergy,
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Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2019, 02:28:52 am »
Raw dairy can cause multiple problems:- hormonal issues, calcium-related issues  etc. But the main problem is allergy/food-intolerance  to raw dairy. The way I see it, many people on cooked diets have so many toxins that their bodies are overwhelmed and cannot deal with other issues well. As soon as they switch to a RVAF diet, their bodies can finally deal with the other issues such as raw dairy. Food-intolerance/allergy can be hidden on a cooked diet. For example, many schizophrenic patients have had their symptoms reduce or disappear after avoiding consumption of grains and dairy, without even converting to raw foods. At any rate, in the heydays of AV/Primal Diet, there would be endless examples of people who would report getting negative symptoms soon  after consuming raw dairy, which they would, via AV's advice, wrongly label as detox. Basically,  detox does exist BUT if one always gets negative symptoms soon after consuming a certain food but not from others, then it cannot be detox but is a sign of something else, usually allergy,

Interesting. Would the appearance of rashes or itching be considered an allergic response to dairy? Obviously there’s a confounding factor of reduced water intake, but considering that somewhat frequent itching and dry dermis (knuckles, torso, crease of hips, legs, arms) is abnormal, could that be related to milk consumption? I’ve always brushed it off because it wasn’t that bad, but I wonder why it happened. I actually increased dairy consumption but the condition didn’t happen to get any worse. In fact, I’ve actually forgotten all about it, which is strange. In the beginning, however, consuming just one serving of milk was enough to cause an onset of itching here and there. Coincidentally, it was around that time when I began to drink much less water, so I couldn’t put my finger on it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 02:36:08 am by Kaaris »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 03:08:15 am »
Interesting. Would the appearance of rashes or itching be considered an allergic response to dairy?
Yes, indeed, but there are, unfortunately, a myriad different possible symptoms. The trouble with allergies is that the symptoms can be fast-acting or very slow-acting with very small symptoms gradually increasing in severity over many years.  Lucky people get fast-acting symptoms shortly after consuming the foods they are allergic to. Unfortunate people like me can get very, very slow-acting symptoms which can take weeks/months/years to appear. Anyway, I, among other conditions,  built up constant inflammation of the skin due  to (raw or pasteurised dairy consumption), getting "prickly heat", rashes, itching, small pains(so that I could not sleep on my left side for years). All one can do, I'm afraid, is to do long-term experiments to see what works. I would recommend ditching the dairy for 6 months to see if that works for you. Basically, raw dairy is not an essential food and I have seen a number of studies which suggest that dairy reduces ones' lifespan over time, among other things, so that even those who do well on raw dairy in the short-term should be concerned.
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Offline Kaaris

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2019, 10:32:07 am »
Yes, indeed, but there are, unfortunately, a myriad different possible symptoms. The trouble with allergies is that the symptoms can be fast-acting or very slow-acting with very small symptoms gradually increasing in severity over many years.  Lucky people get fast-acting symptoms shortly after consuming the foods they are allergic to. Unfortunate people like me can get very, very slow-acting symptoms which can take weeks/months/years to appear. Anyway, I, among other conditions,  built up constant inflammation of the skin due  to (raw or pasteurised dairy consumption), getting "prickly heat", rashes, itching, small pains(so that I could not sleep on my left side for years). All one can do, I'm afraid, is to do long-term experiments to see what works. I would recommend ditching the dairy for 6 months to see if that works for you. Basically, raw dairy is not an essential food and I have seen a number of studies which suggest that dairy reduces ones' lifespan over time, among other things, so that even those who do well on raw dairy in the short-term should be concerned.

That’s very true. Perhaps the symptoms of lactose/dairy intolerance might appear depending on factors such as quantity and prolonged use/long term consumption. Since I dislike the current state in which I have been involved, before you even suggested cutting the ingestion of milk for 6 months, I had  already decided to exclude dairy indefinitely and observe if conditions improve. Instead, I’m substiting dairy for salmon and liver, so that I don’t become deficient in some of the vitamins that milk used to provide me.

Btw, is that skin/fatty part at the bottom of raw salmon edible? I had 4 oz of the flesh, but that skin is rather sturdy

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2019, 05:00:05 pm »
Can't remember, I only get farmed  skinless smoked salmon over here, so avoid that like the plague.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2019, 07:16:18 pm »
AV was often wrong and not in tune with the real experiences of most RVAFers. In the case of raw veggie juice, DPL is, of course, wrong. Juicing breaks down the cell-walls , thus making not only the nutrients but also the antinutrients  in raw vegetables far more bioavailable.

How is a slow masticating juicer like the greenstar any different in this regard than chewing? I know you're not a fan of chewing meats extensively but surely you don't think the same about fibrous plants like celery?

Incidentally, I got diarrhea, too, after consuming raw veggie-juice.

What did your juice consist of and how much did you drink?

And was that the only time in your life you had diarrhea?

And how do you know it wasn't a detox?
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Re: Constipation
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2019, 10:04:10 pm »
 A slow juicer is rather more extreme than chewing re pressure . Besides, most people don't spend ages chewing plant foods.

Re my raw veggie juice experience:- I had 1 pint of raw veggie juice a day for several days - I also tried other times when I drank less a day or more a day, but not all at the same time . Obviously, I have had diarrhea many other times pre-rpd diet and in the first 2-3 days of going rvaf, but this is irrelevant since the diarrhea I got in my raw veggie juice experiments always happened within 30-60 minutes afterwards. The way I see it, given my other experiments with eating only raw liver every other week, is that my body did not want the nutrients in the raw veggie juice and so got rid of them  pronto via diarrhea. Also, a real detox does not occur every time one consumes a specific food, detoxes are usually random.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2019, 10:08:49 pm »
A slow juicer is rather more extreme than chewing re pressure . Besides, most people don't spend ages chewing plant foods.

I don't see how it's more extreme, and plenty of people, myself included, have the natural instinct to chew vegetables like celery or carrots, drink the juice and discard the pulp.

Re my raw veggie juice experience:- I had 1 pint of raw veggie juice a day for several days - I also tried other times when I drank less a day or more a day, but not all at the same time .

What combinations and amounts of vegetables did the juice consist of?

And were you aware that AV never recommended more than 1/4th to 3/4ths of a pint as the absolute maximum per sitting?
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Re: Constipation
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2019, 11:15:08 pm »
Juicing exerts far more pressure and really cuts into the cell-membranes, thus releasing more antinutrients/nutrients than chewing. Bear also in mind that we do not have the kind of chewing power re teeth etc. that herbivores like sheep do.

Back in my PD group days, I used to encounter a large number of Primal Dieters who would consume more than a pint a day of raw veggie juice.As regards the veg I used for raw veggie juice, it was a wide choice of carrots, radishes, but mostly greener veg like kale cucumber or whatever. It was a long time ago, so memory isn't great. I will agree that I never had issues with raw fruit juices.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2019, 12:06:55 am »
Juicing exerts far more pressure and really cuts into the cell-membranes, thus releasing more antinutrients/nutrients than chewing. Bear also in mind that we do not have the kind of chewing power re teeth etc. that herbivores like sheep do.

Our teeth, jaws, tongue etc, if in optimal condition are perfectly capable of "juicing" most vegetables. I don't think you're talking about slow masticating juicers when you say they exert a lot more pressure or cut deeper into cell membranes.

Back in my PD group days, I used to encounter a large number of Primal Dieters who would consume more than a pint a day of raw veggie juice.

Per day yes, per sitting no. Even in his recipe book from 2002 he recommended as little as 1/4th of a pint per sitting, 3 times a day, and 3/4ths per sitting as the absolute maximum for people who needed more. And later on he started recommending even smaller amounts of juice in general.

As regards the veg I used for raw veggie juice, it was a wide choice of carrots, radishes, but mostly greener veg like kale cucumber or whatever. It was a long time ago, so memory isn't great. I will agree that I never had issues with raw fruit juices.

That's not how AV recommended to mix your juices and in fact he strictly said not to do that. Cucumber is the only one out of all those which you should have a large amount of in your juices. And he said you should never juice fruits, except in small amounts and for particular formulas, as that makes the sugars rush into your bloodstream too fast.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2019, 12:58:33 am »
I'm aware of many of AV's recommendations against fruits. He was wrong.And, like I said, we are neither herbivores like sheep with their superior chewing ability  nor do we obtain as much antinutrients by chewing than a juicer does. Anyway, my selfdiagnosis re veggie-juice  is rather more likely to be correct since I had similiar experiences with raw ox liver(grassfed) and to raw suet. Besides, tastewise, fruits are better than antinutrient-rich  raw vegetables , and, since taste/instinct works better for me  as a path to health... I guess, GCB was right in his basic concept re instincts.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Constipation
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2019, 01:21:02 am »
You can claim whatever you want, but don't say AV's advise regarding veggie juice is bad when you did exactly what he said not to do, in larger amounts than he recommended, and got the results he said you would get by doing what you did.

In synthesis, your juice was too strong and you had too much of it. Of course you were going to have issues.
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