Author Topic: PaleoPhil's Journal  (Read 273379 times)

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Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #800 on: June 04, 2014, 10:54:14 pm »
Journal update and random jottings

My vision is especially good today, having gradually improved over the last week or so. My best guesses for the source(s) of the improvements is(are): resistant starch sources (especially mung bean starch, and also other sources like raw dried semi-ripe plantains and semi-ripe bananas), Primal Defense probiotic, and vitamin A (from a liquid form I apply to my lip to prevent chapping and from food sources like raw liver).

There are also indications that my cellular respiration and carb tolerance continues to gradually improve. For example, in the past while VLC, I noticed a slight increase in warmth when eating some fermented raw honey. Now I notice it from unfermented raw honey too and it's more noticeable--and I'm getting higher readings on the thermometer afterward. Perhaps this also contributes to the improvement in night vision and myopia.

Meat prices continue to rise and several of the meats, bones and animal fats I used to buy are gone from local markets. Thank goodness I learned about the pitfalls of excessively chronic ZC/VLC and eventually found a way to improve my carb tolerance some. I feel for ZCers, some of whom must be taking quite a hit from these prices.

Phil,, I'm wondering how in actuality you've lowered your food bill?  Don't want to make wrongful assumptions about how many carbs you're including in your diet, and possibly what plant proteins or plant fats you're substituting to reduce costs?
    But all foods are skyrocketing.   If you've tried to buy raw organic almonds for instance, or brazil nuts, or avocados, or even raw coconut oil is way more per pound than I'm able to buy back for for instance.    And then you mention butter oil, and cod liver oil, the brand you take, both extremely high priced, but of course you only use small amounts.  Honey is another high price food lately.  Then there's the price of Tuna or other popular fish prices, sky high. 
  My advice, and I think most of us are able to do this, is to support your local rancher wherever possible.   So unless you're substituting fat for low priced carbs such as potatoes and or some of your animal protein and fat for say beans,, well I'm just wondering..?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #801 on: June 05, 2014, 05:52:29 am »
Please note: this is a personal journal, not a debate thread.  ;D  Warning: ZCers and their cheerleaders may find the following to be unpleasant.  -d You are advised to move on if you think you may find it upsetting.

  Disingenuous nonsense.
Tyler, Didn't you admonish people in the past to play nice in other people's journals? Perhaps you didn't notice that this was my journal?  ;D

if meat-prices are going up, then why would some meats/cuts/organs no longer appear on the market?
It's called the law of supply and demand. If the prices go too high, they can surpass much of the demand at lower prices, and when items have limited numbers of customers, this can eventually result in the market dropping the item. Not everyone can afford to pay any price.

Have meat prices not risen significantly in the last few years in the UK? Where I live they certainly have. I know that some of it is due to special factors in the USA, such as some major droughts in recent years.

As I mentioned before, some of the items I was buying did have a rather limited market and I my guess is that people were doing what I was doing and buying less of them as the prices went up, until it was no longer worth to the markets to carry them.

In case you haven't noticed, some others in this forum have also started to note the rising meat prices in the USA, so it's not like I'm making this up or something.

After finding a cheap source of fat, I've been able to lower my monthly food costs to just $157.00 USD per month.
That's great! Thanks for sharing. Would you please share what your most commonly purchased foods are, and their price/lb and where you get them? With the price increases, I'm forced to focus more on economizing.

A Trader Joe's opened recently and they have 19 cent/lb bananas, so I've been buying more bananas than usual. It would be so ironic and humorous if someone like me who tried ZC in the past ends up eating lots of bananas, more like the hated DR! It would be sure to confuse my friends and relatives.  LOL >D   DR is so annoying  -v , but I'm hoping that he's right about bananas being an uber-healthy food, given the super-cheap price and now that I can tolerate some more carbs. I still can't handle anywhere near as much cheap carby foods as he can, unfortunately (nor do I ever intend to eat as much of them as he does, of course).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 06:02:31 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #802 on: June 05, 2014, 06:03:55 am »
Tyler, Didn't you admonish people in the past to play nice in other people's journals? Perhaps you didn't notice that this was my journal?  ;D
I presume I was provoked. Besides,  I only used two words rather than rehashing lengthy past arguments etc.
Quote
It's called the law of supply and demand. If the prices go too high, they can surpass much of the demand at lower prices, and when items have limited numbers of customers, this can eventually result in the market dropping the item. Not everyone can afford to pay any price.

Have meat prices not risen significantly in the last few years in the UK? Where I live they certainly have. I know that some of it is due to special factors in the USA, such as some major droughts in recent years.

As I mentioned before, some of the items I was buying did have a rather limited market and I my guess is that people were doing what I was doing and buying less of them as the prices went up, until it was no longer worth to the markets to carry them.

In case you haven't noticed, some others in this forum have also started to note the rising meat prices in the USA, so it's not like I'm making this up or something.


[/quote] Hmm, still does not make sense.  I would expect some low-cost items to stay in demand even if prices went up.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #803 on: June 05, 2014, 10:49:51 am »
my jaw dropped ( well not too much, since i'm chewing on some liver and soft bone marrow presently) when I read you're buying and eating bananas from Trader Joes??   Maybe they are organic, if not, wtf?  So it sounds like you're not really vlc any more?  Or if so, what real difference would a few bananas  make if they were 19 cents a pound or 1.09 a pound?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #804 on: June 05, 2014, 11:19:18 am »
my jaw dropped ( well not too much, since i'm chewing on some liver and soft bone marrow presently) when I read you're buying and eating bananas from Trader Joes??   Maybe they are organic, if not, wtf?
They have both and I eat some of both, why? Is there some danger about Trader Joes that you know about? I learned that organic bananas are not only more expensive, and supposedly not significantly healthier, but actually often much more devastating to the environment, so I don't see much of a point to organic bananas, unless they happen to be greener, which they often do tend to be, so I probably buy more organic ones and earn a few more lashes in purgatory.  (joke) ;) I don't eat enough of them to be concerned about fungicides or irradiation.

I eat enough green and semi-green plantains that organic might be theoretically important, but there are indications to the contrary:
Quote
http://www.jesichashope.org/What%20to%20Buy%20Organic%20and%20What%20You%20Can%20Buy%20Non.pdf
"Bananas – Low pesticide residues and a thick skin made non-organic an acceptable choice."

http://www.stufftoblowyourmind.com/blog/goodbye-organic-produce-hello-banana-peels/
"foods like bananas tend to be pretty safe regardless of the growing standards, as the thick peel provides a natural barrier between harmful chemicals and the part you eat."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzWaZKqD0KE
"organic bananas are the most destructive"

Quote
So it sounds like you're not really vlc any more?  Or if so, what real difference would a few bananas  make if they were 19 cents a pound or 1.09 a pound?
I don't claim to be VLC and have warned multiple times about the risks of staying excessively VLC too chronically for too long (don't you remember responding to some of the info I shared?). My guess is that my current avg carb intake is around what Dr. Rosedale recommends, perhaps a bit more now, and some days it does exceed that level, whereas other days I eat as close to zero carb as one probably can manage while eating mostly raw. The bananas don't yet make a huge difference, which is why I said it would be funny if I ate a lot of them like DR does, not that I am now. I no longer limit myself to the occasional single banana. When I saw the cheap prices for both the conventional and organic bananas, it inspired me to try eating some more, to see how well I handle them now, and to help go as much as possible with a diversity of whole food sources of raw resistant starch, inulin and other prebiotics, rather than just use powders. So now I sometimes buy a complete bunch of them, as green as I can get. My interest is in what works for me, rather than adherence to VLC doctrines or other theoretical doctrines. Are you afraid of bananas for some reason?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 01:11:20 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #805 on: June 05, 2014, 11:22:45 am »
I presume I was provoked. Besides,  I only used two words rather than rehashing lengthy past arguments etc.
Ha ha! Yes, that is well behaved for you.  ;D

Quote
Hmm, still does not make sense.  I would expect some low-cost items to stay in demand even if prices went up.
Not all of them were low-cost. Some were low cost and not particularly popular, so any significant increase spelled their demise, others were moderate to somewhat high cost that then may have become too pricey even for those willing to pay a bit more. Or maybe there's just a temporary shortage and they'll appear again in the future.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:41:35 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #806 on: June 05, 2014, 02:04:41 pm »
my response was about you saving so much money by eating plant based, and your comments on how cheap the bananas were, as if they were saving you on your food bill.   And I thought you had said that you eat vlc? Must of got it wrong, or misunderstand the definition.  I guess that's lower than R. Rosedales recommendations.    Anyway didn't know about the references to the bananas, will look at them later.  Can't help believe that regardless of how thick the peel is that it hasn't entered the fruit from the soil.   Don't know if you've ever seen commercial b. plantations.  They are massively sprayed.  Have nothing against bananas,, have eaten my share of them.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #807 on: June 05, 2014, 07:07:24 pm »
my response was about you saving so much money by eating plant based, and your comments on how cheap the bananas were, as if they were saving you on your food bill.
I didn't say I'm eating "plant based," nor that I saved "so much money." I have saved some vs. eating VLC/ZC and if I were eating like DR, I would be saving more.

Quote
And I thought you had said that you eat vlc?
Nope, I said that I currently eat LC, not VLC. It was in the past that I was eating VLC.

Quote
I guess that's lower than R. Rosedales recommendations.
Yes, I said that I think of VLC as lower than Rosedale's recommendation (and I since learned that the Atkins people say that "keto" is below 10% carbs) and that I probably eat about what Rosedale recommends. Do you eat less carbs than what Rosedale recommends? What do you think of his recommendation? Do you consider his diet "plant-based"?

Quote
Anyway didn't know about the references to the bananas, will look at them later.  Can't help believe that regardless of how thick the peel is that it hasn't entered the fruit from the soil.
The report I saw said that the amount that entered this way was minimal. I'm not particularly worried about it.

Quote
Have nothing against bananas,, have eaten my share of them.
So why the hyperbole about jaw dropping and such?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #808 on: June 05, 2014, 08:15:08 pm »
I mentioned before, that I have spoken with once for about four hours,, he indicated that he doesn't eat 20 per cent of his calories from carbs.. I eat less than that myself.  I still think that he may have indicated that so that for people starting off it wouldn't be too difficult.
    To me, eating a non-organic banana would be something i wouldn't consider. Just like I wouldn't consider eating grain fed antibiotic laced meat.   But if your articles are true, I'll shut that jaw.     Still wondering why you feel for those eating ZC, cost of food wise, if you're only eating 20% carbs.  The difference would be trivial.   But I don't need to continue with this.  enjoy

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #809 on: June 08, 2014, 04:33:26 am »
To each his own. For me, the concerns about conventional bananas seem overblown, given the protective peel, the fact that banana fruits do not grow directly in the soil or on the ground, bananas are not one of the "dirty dozen" plant foods that are recommended be purchased as organics, and given the report I recall reading that found negligible pesticide traces in the actual flesh (I don't have it handy, sorry). None of us can eat exactly like Stone Agers, so we all make compromises. Besides, I eat mostly organic bananas currently, as I mentioned, and right now the organic ones are only $.29/[each].

Speaking of bananas...
But all foods are skyrocketing.
All foods? Presumably you consider bananas a food, given that you eat some, right? Luckily, I have some old budgets in my PC and here are a few banana prices over the years. I don't have prices for organic bananas in the past, and I don't even think there were any sold in my local area back in 1990, so these are conventional banana prices.

Conventional [Cavendish] bananas, price per lb
$0.59 - 1990, Stop & Shop [supermarket], Massachusetts
[$0.40+] - Currently, Trader Joe's [discount chain market], VT (and $0.69 at Hannaford [supermarket])

Twenty four years later, conventional bananas only cost 10 cents/lb more at Hannaford and cost even less at Trader Joe's. My guess is that Trader Joe's price right now is a temporary good deal, though they've had it for some weeks now, but even after it goes up in the future, I'll bet it will be less than $.69/lb. So while a lot of foods are going up in price, they are not all going up equally.

I feel bad for myself too, due to the meat price increases, not just ZCers, but it seems rather crass to say it that way, and they happen to be getting hit that much more. Every little bit helps. If you think some savings on around 20% of the diet is insignificant, that's up to you. Whatever floats your boat. I've actually been re-examining my food and overall budget to see if I can economize some more. I have economized on the types of "ZC" animal foods I buy too in response to the rising prices and scarcities (which gave me no other choice). I haven't been getting free hunting meats/organs/fats from my brother-in-law in a long while, so that is another impact for me that makes the current price increases more of a factor.

Given the good prices for bananas, I'm actually considering trying upping my consumption of those further. If it shocks or irritates chronic ZC/VLC defenders, that's not my problem, sorry.

If DR's banana prices are anything like this, then I can believe his claims about his 30-plus-bananas-a-day diet being rather cheap.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 08:04:34 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline eveheart

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #810 on: June 08, 2014, 05:03:54 am »
...so these are conventional banana prices.

Conventional bananas, price per lb
$0.59 - 1990, Stop & Shop, Massachusetts
$0.19 - Currently, Trader Joe's, VT (and $0.69 at Hannaford)...

Trader Joe's does not sell bananas for 19 cents a pound! As a matter of fact, they don't sell any produce per pound, witness the fact that they don't weigh anything at the checkstands!

Their bananas are 19 cents each, which comes out to 40-something cents per pound, still a great deal, but not a miracle!

The bananas they sell are the Cavendish cultivar.

For those unfamiliar with Trader Joe's, they are a large chain of smaller markets that feature one-brand (often their own), one-size product selection, and they do not carry any slower-selling items, so their inventory costs and profit structure cannot be compared to the traditional supermarket model.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #811 on: June 08, 2014, 05:09:15 am »
My bad in mis-remembering the banana price unit--the store is recently opened and I've only been a few times so far and they were out of bananas the last time--thanks for the correction, Eveheart. I edited my post to fix that. That's still a cheaper price than what was available to me 24 years ago, and still a reasonable price even for the organics, so I'm still thinking I may try upping the banana consumption some more, though it wouldn't be as good a deal as it looked like at first.

It's irrelevant to what I pay that Trader Joe's is a different model. I was comparing the cheapest price that was available to me in 1990 vs. now, and I also provided the Hannaford supermarket price to take care of any concern with the comparison.

I also buy plantains at Hannaford, and I think I know the per/lb price of those, but I'd better check to be sure before commenting on them.  ;D

I mentioned before, that I have spoken with once for about four hours,, he indicated that he doesn't eat 20 per cent of his calories from carbs.. I eat less than that myself.  I still think that he may have indicated that so that for people starting off it wouldn't be too difficult.
That doesn't change the fact that Rosedale recommended 20% carbs to others. So unless he's misleading people by recommending an unhealthy diet, he's perfectly fine with 20% carbs.

---

I see I missed answering some other questions--I wasn't planning on buying any more CLO. That's another area I'm economizing on. The honey is not that expensive--it actually works out to be cheaper per pound (and even more so per calorie) than the top sirloin roasts that you buy, Van--and I wasn't consuming that much (it's a medicinal for me, rather than a staple food), so it is much less of a factor for me than meats. Nonetheless, I already cut back some even on the little honey I was eating, offsetting a bit the increase in carbs from plantains/Cavendish.

Given that some portion of the semi-ripe to green plantains and bananas gets converted by bacteria to short chain fatty acids, it's hard to know what my real end-result carb and fat intake is. Barry Groves wrote an article touching on this--how even diets that seem higher carb actually work out to be lower-carb and higher-fat than one might think. The effect was bigger in other primates than humans, though I suspect he underestimated the impact for humans, because less was known in science and the mass media about the topic when he wrote the article.

I don't focus so much on the grams or % of carbs consumed as whatever happens to work for me to give me good results. I do find it interesting that the carb recommendations that gurus like Rosedale and Jaminet make to others are actually closer than most people seem to realize. The macronutrient wars are much less interesting to me than the recent accumulating information about the potential risks of extreme diets, such as chronic ZC/VLC and chronic low fat raw vegan, and my improvements when I incorporated more prebiotic food sources. I even have what would probably be called "ZC" days myself, but intermittently--not on a continuous basis.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:44:36 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #812 on: June 08, 2014, 06:43:50 am »
Random unrelated journal jotting:

A neat little discussion aid that someone posted in another forum (higher up the pyramid is better):

Quote
the greatest benefit of disagreeing well is not just that it will make conversations better, but that it will make the people who have them happier. If you study conversations, you find there is a lot more meanness down in DH1 than up in DH6. You don't have to be mean when you have a real point to make. In fact, you don't want to. If you have something real to say, being mean just gets in the way.

If moving up the disagreement hierarchy makes people less mean, that will make most of them happier. Most people don't really enjoy being mean; they do it because they can't help it. - Paul Graham
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 06:52:55 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #813 on: June 09, 2014, 10:13:10 am »
The plantains come out to about $.60/lb. They are not organic.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #814 on: June 18, 2014, 06:05:09 am »
"I'll pursue a policy of reconciliation and peace. We will also reconcile with the world." - Hasan Rowhani, newly elected President of Iran

"Probably no country in the world is more mischaracterized in Western eyes than Iran. Most Americans' perceptions of Iran are limited to images of President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad delivering anti-American speeches and crowds chanting "Death to America!" with the blessing of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khameini. Yet a 2009 World Public Opinion poll found that 51 percent of Iranians hold a favorable opinion of Americans, a number consistent with other polls, meaning that Americans are more widely liked in Iran than anywhere else in the Middle East [after Israel]." http://tinyurl.com/a33fy9u

Iran/Persia is a natural ally of the USA (http://tinyurl.com/lyoxvf4). I hope we are returning to our traditional friendship after an ugly period.
Nice to see some vindication of my opinion on this, despite some squawking from the Neocon element:
Quote
Obama administration hints at alliance with Iran on Iraqi militants in policy reversal
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jun/16/obama-administration-hints-at-alliance-with-iran-o/

The ties between Indo-Aryan European and Iranian (Aryan) cultures and peoples go back thousands of years. Not something to be casually dismissed.

Let's celebrate with the heavenly voice of Marzieh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITuaErC6eJE
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Joy2012

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #815 on: July 11, 2014, 09:57:22 pm »
PaleoPhil, I just want to thank you for reporting that you have changed your mind about very-low-carb diet (in your other threads on the risks of VLC diet and on resistant starch). I regret that I did not read those threads until this past week. Still I am thankful that I read them finally. I have never done well with VLC diet but I have kept trying to go back to it because of you and other people in this forum who were/are honestly reporting their success with VLC diet. Now I feel free to  explore what really works for me. And thank you for introducing me to RS.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #816 on: July 11, 2014, 10:27:58 pm »
My vision is especially good today, having gradually improved over the last week or so. My best guesses for the source(s) of the improvements is(are): resistant starch sources (especially mung bean starch...
How do you eat mung bean starch? How does it taste? How much RS is in mung bean starch?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #817 on: July 12, 2014, 06:25:02 am »
Glad to be of service, Joy. I hope people are seeing the warning in my signature: "Beware chronic VLC problems."

I usually just add a tbsp of raw mung bean starch to sparkling mineral water. There's not much taste, though the water tastes slightly sweet to me. I don't know the RS content of raw MB starch, but raw mung beans are one of the foods higher in RS on this list: http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Joy2012

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #818 on: July 12, 2014, 11:52:54 pm »
Thank you for replying, Phil.

Do you take in high-maze resistant starch too? The Honeyville Farms brand appears to get good reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/Hi-Maize-Resistant-Starch-Pound-Bag/product-reviews/B00993APG8/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1


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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #819 on: July 13, 2014, 02:01:02 am »
(Warning to sensitive raw purists: there is non-raw text in this journal answer to a question. If it will anger you, then you may wish to skip over it.)

---*---

Nope, though a number of people have indeed reported good results from that. By coincidence, the uber-helpful Tatertot Tim Steele just posted about a similar maize food product that is nixtamalized, which was how much of the traditional maize foods were prepared:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-188.html#post1512137

http://www.bobsredmill.com/golden-masa-harina-corn-flour.html

I tried some Tibetan rice-pea-potato curry today at the Farmer's Market with no noticeable negative effects and blood glucose an hour later was only 119 mg/dl! I was also able to wolf it down with no stomach upset. Amazing what resistant starch and other prebiotics can do to improve insulin sensitivity, digestion and metabolism of carbs/plants, etc.

Replace the curry with salt and pepper and Indo-Tibetan curry becomes an Irish dish. Interesting that Tibetan curry has less of the curry spice than Indian, so that it's even more like Irish food.

This is the year of the horse, so the Tibetan stall was displaying prayer flags with the sacred wind horse, once a beloved spirit/god/goddess of Tibetans, Mongols, Celts and Turkic folk, stretching from Mongolia, Manchuria and Korea in the East across the great steppes to Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Celtic Britain in the West. My Irish ancestors were particularly fond of the horse spirit/goddess and horses in general and the members of my mother's clan and other related clans reportedly considered themselves half-horse, in spirit. Philip literally means lover of the horse, but I believe it's more ancient meaning is devotee of the horse goddess/spirit. At my grandfather's wake there were eleven Philips!





Here's the wind-horse design that is on those year-of-the-horse prayer flags:


The Celtic form the spirit horse more often takes is the water horse or the Púca:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_horse

Púca, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%BAca

There were some lovely white baby turnips at the FM today that are delicious raw and when some uninformed guy asked if they should be boiled or cooked in some other manner the seller even recommended that they be eaten raw in a salad.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 02:33:50 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Joy2012

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #820 on: July 13, 2014, 02:40:18 am »
Thank you for the interesting post.

Tim's writing on Masa Harina does not seem to have much to  do with RS.  He does not say Masa Harina is high on RS.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #821 on: July 13, 2014, 09:21:20 pm »
I usually just add a tbsp of raw mung bean starch to sparkling mineral water. There's not much taste, though the water tastes slightly sweet to me. I don't know the RS content of raw MB starch, but raw mung beans are one of the foods higher in RS on this list:
Is it safe to eat RAW mung bean starch? Please read the following information. Also, raw whole mung beans, if not sprouted or cooked, taste terrible. Could that be a sign they should not be eaten raw, even in isolated starch form?

Beans and other legumes are among the most nutritionally valuable vegetable foods. But they also contain a protein that can be toxic in sufficiently high concentrations if the beans are eaten raw. Kidney beans in particular contain enough of this toxin (PHA) to cause acute symptoms, even if only a few raw beans are consumed... PHA is known to be an insecticide, and plants probably developed it to keep their seeds from being destroyed by pests...Individuals vary in their sensitivity to PHA, so it is probably a good idea when cooking to treat all dried beans as if they were kidney beans, and to cook fresh mature beans (shellie beans) at least long enough to deactivate the toxin.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/2385/

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #822 on: July 13, 2014, 10:46:45 pm »
Beans and other legumes are among the most nutritionally valuable vegetable foods. But they also contain a protein that can be toxic in sufficiently high concentrations if the beans are eaten raw.
Starch is not protein. Starch is what's left after you remove the protein, cellulose, etc. As the source you quoted indicates, the toxins are proteins, not starches.

Raw mung bean starch appears to be not only safe for me, but beneficial in the doses I consume it. Whether it is safe, beneficial, or harmful for you is something that only you could determine, and there is always the unknown of long term effects with any food, so we are all rolling the dice to some degree. The scientific dig evidence, thousands of years of experience of HG's and other traditional peoples, scientific studies, knowledge from biology, chemistry and medicine, and other evidence can provide clues about what might work in the longer run.

I actually found that by just soaking mung beans, I could make them reasonably edible, though not yummy, and it took a lot of soaking, and I also changed the water at least once. They didn't taste terrible to me, though to each their own. I'll probably experiment some more with that at some point. I forget if I've tried something acidic with the beans yet, such as lemon juice or vinegar, which might also help them ferment. I might try making the sprouts some time too.

My friends and relatives tend to think that many of the paleo foods discussed in this forum taste terrible or are too disgusting to even try and that modern highly-processed junk foods taste much better. That doesn't guarantee that the latter are healthy or the former unhealthy.

Our ancient ancestors ate legumes for millions of years before the advent of cooking. Many of the foods they ate millions and even thousands of years ago are not available to us today, so we make do with what is available. We can't eat the exact "perfect" diets of the past, if they were ever perfect. I used to avoid all legumes and found I did better by including some--probably still less than in the avg American diet. I do what works for me, which may not work for others. Each person will have to figure out what works for them.

Interestingly, legumes were the only food type common among all the Blue Zone healthy nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone#Characteristics). It at least appears that eating a certain amount of the legumes consumed by these societies is not associated with severely negative health.

Some legume foods available to me are edible raw, fitting NeaderThin author Ray Audette's definition of "Paleo" as being any food edible to anyone who has just a sharp stick--such as jicama legume tubers, tamarind legume pod fruits, carob legume pod fruits, and Bambara legume groundnuts. Of those, I eat jicama and tamarind. Interestingly, my ability to tolerate tamarind and other legumes seems to have improved since increasing resistant starch and other prebiotics in my det. Some legume tubers commonly eaten by hunter gatherers, such as Ekwa hasa (Vigna frutescens) and Shumuwako (Vatoraea pseudolablab) are also edible raw (Sex Differences in Food Preferences of Hadza Hunter-Gatherers, http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf). Some Instinctos, such as Iguana (Francois), eat cassia fistula legume pod fruits.

Toxins and anti-nutrients are frequently focused on in Paleo circles. Until recently, it was rare to see Paleoists discuss the anti-toxins and pro-nutrients in foods, such as resistant starch, butyrate, and so on. That has been changing. More and more people are examining both sides of the toxin/anti-toxin coin, instead of just focusing on one side, and examining resilience-promotion, not just toxin-avoidance.

(Note to readers: This is a journal, not a debate thread, and this info is meant to be an explanation in response to a question, not a debating point, so if anyone wants to debate any of this, please put it in a debate thread or start a new one. Thanks.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 11:33:44 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Joy2012

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #823 on: July 13, 2014, 11:31:13 pm »
Thank you for pointing out that raw mung bean starch contains no protein. May I ask which brand of raw mung bean starch is your favorite brand?

When I said raw mung beans taste terrible, I meant un-soaked whole beans. I actually like soaked mung beans that just start sprouting.

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #824 on: July 13, 2014, 11:36:34 pm »
Thank you for pointing out that raw mung bean starch contains no protein.
Likely very tiny amounts. Some who are super-sensitive to potato starch and developed joint pains or other symptoms reported that soaking it in acidic water overnight helped. Their theory as to why it may help is that it removes the remaining tiny amounts of plant proteins. http://freetheanimal.com/2014/07/groundbreaking-nightshade-starch.html Maybe the same would be true re: MB starch. I haven't noticed any of the reported negative symptoms, but I might experiment with it at some point out of curiosity.

Quote
May I ask which brand of raw mung bean starch is your favorite brand?
I don't have a preference.

Quote
When I said raw mung beans taste terrible, I meant un-soaked whole beans. I actually like soaked mung beans that just start sprouting.
Thanks for the explanation.

I am not averse to using soaking, nor to eating limited amounts of soaked foods. Many people even recommend soaking tree nuts, which are widely regarded as "Paleo."

Ironically, Boyd Eaton, "the godfather of Paleo," considers legumes to be "Paleo". Loren Cordain and Ray Audette shifted opinion against legumes in their books, and since then the pendulum has swung back a bit and there have been an increasing number of Paleoists considering certain legumes as "Paleo" foods.

One downside to legumes is PUFA content. It may make sense for SAD eaters to minimize or even avoid legumes for a while to allow the PUFA levels in their tissues to decrease to healthier levels, and to also give their immune systems a break from legume proteins. How long the break should be, I don't know. I'm guessing weeks for most people. For people with high prebiotic intakes, healthy microbiomes, low allergenicity, good digestion and low PUFA levels in their tissues, it may not be necessary or beneficial to take an extended break from legumes. On the other hand, maybe everyone would benefit from seasonal breaks from legumes and other foods. These are just my speculations. There isn't definitive proof one way or another.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 11:49:49 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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