Brief SuperInfinity "fruitarianesque" experiment bombs:
I spent 1 week on an experiment, at the urging of fellow forum member SuperInfinity, in which I increased the amount of fruits, nuts, dried fruits and canned fish I consumed and reduced red meat and fat, to clean out my pantry, see how quickly my symptoms would return and confirm that I should eliminate fruits and nuts. It only took a couple of days for me to notice worsening skin, crud on my teeth, return of mild nightmares, morning muscle aches, etc. After a week, one of my teeth started to wobble again and I ended the experiment.
- Why canned fish? There is than a (perhaps remote, but it is there nevertheless) possibility that your troubles aren't due to the increased fruits intake, but to the canned fish !Not likely. I ate it all in a couple days and had no increase in problems from that. In contrast, the days after I gorged on fruits or nuts I experienced a big increase in symptoms. I ate the canned fish to mostly clean out my pantry so I can go fully raw ZC without many temptations around, plus so I could test the recommendation of SuperInfinity to eat more like his zany diet (he gave me the idea to eat lots more fruits and nuts and less red meat and fat and he eats canned fish) and so I could start sooner on my meat/organs/fat diet, which so far has had far better results for me.
Thanks Lex.OK, I found near pure heaven--raw ground venison meat. It tastes very much like the venison sausage without the added spices. It's my favorite raw meat so far. Not surprising, given that it was my favorite cooked meat too. Unfortunately it's probably partly grain fed. Now if it was 100% pasture fed, that would really be pure heaven! ;D
Tip for newbies: venison sausage is one of the easier things to eat raw--expensive, but cheaper than the finer cuts of beef. It only took a few tries of this for me to like it quite a bit, and it tastes much better raw than cooked. It has some fat in it, but not nearly as much as commercial pork sausage, so it's easier to digest--plus it doesn't have the gristle of commercial pork sausage. Only downside is, the local people that make it and sell it in local health food markets put too much sage, salt and pepper in it, but we can't have everything I suppose. If it was unseasoned it would be pure heaven.
Excellent journal so far. I wish you continued success.Thank you raw brother! :D
Cooking food also generates thousands of chemicals. There are over 1000 chemicals reported in a cup of coffee. Only 26 have been tested in animal cancer tests and more than half are rodent carcinogens; there are still a thousand chemicals left to test. The amount of potentially carcinogenic pesticide residues consumed in a year is less than the amount known of rodent carcinogens in a cup of coffee.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/A/Ames_Causes.html
Because I rarely drink anything other than water, simple tap water has come to taste very good to me. Strangely, it even tastes sweet. This is quite a cost savings and convenience as well.Isn't tap water chlorinated at your place ? Chlorine is very noxious... but anyway, chlorinated water is not as bad as coffee !
I've noticed that with water, too. It only tastes sweet when I'm thirsty. When I'm not, I feel the taste further back on my tongue, in the bitter regions.Yeah, I wonder what the biological processes are behind that? Apparently the taste buds are activated in a certain way and different taste buds kick in at different times?
Isn't tap water chlorinated at your place ? Chlorine is very noxious... but anyway, chlorinated water is not as bad as coffee !Yeah, I've thought about getting an activated carbon filter, but I had one in the past that I was not thrilled with. It took up counter space, it was annoying to have to switch back and forth between filtering and not, and the inside of the tube that connected to the faucet got coated in gunk, which seemed to defeat the purpose of having the filter. Anyone have any filter recommendations?
Cheers
Francois
Yeah, I've thought about getting an activated carbon filter, but I had one in the past that I was not thrilled with. It took up counter space, it was annoying to have to switch back and forth between filtering and not, and the inside of the tube that connected to the faucet got coated in gunk, which seemed to defeat the purpose of having the filter. Anyone have any filter recommendations?
I did some searching and found a couple of claims by others that unflavored mead does not cause hangovers, whereas red wine is known to cause bad hangovers. Does anyone know why red grape wine would cause hangovers but honey wine not, or much less?
I'm not surprised that anyone would react to red wine(or wine in general). It's been recently admitted that wine-makers routinely add all sorts of crap to wine such as dairy products, sugar and all sorts of artificial chemicals(probably even with organic wines, albeit to a lesser extent).It was Our Daily Red, by American Canyon, winner of the 2008 international Green Wine competition. They claim it is organic, "vegan-friendly" (I assume that would mean it is free of dairy), and free of sulfite, chemicals, and preservatives. Do you know of any additives in their wine?
Hi PaleoPhil!!The main ones I avoid involve hyperextension and compression of the spine and unsupported standing toe touches. I also try to avoid doing things that involve stretching if I am not warmed up. Stretching has also come under increasing question in general, so my favorite poses tend to focus more on balance and strength and the stretching I occasionally do is more to check how flexible my muscles and joints are--and they continue to grow increasingly flexible and more-balanced without regular yoga. For example, I can now do the Gomukhasana (cow face (http://www.syvum.fr/iosundry/fun/yoga/yoga_pose_cow_face_gomukhasana_b.jpg)) pose nearly equally well with both arms--fully grasping the hands behind my back from either the left or right side, whereas it used to be that my hands did not touch at all when I did it with the left arm raised. This improvement occurred solely through dietary change.
You wrote on another thread about yoga positions you particular dislike and like... can you be more specific? I had gotten into hot yoga for a while, I liked it a lot and the hot room was like heaven for me because I am always cold so I felt like I could really work well that way. I really want to be able to the advanced poses that require you to be able to support your full body weight. I'm not there yet, but I'd like to achieve that.
It was Our Daily Red, by American Canyon, winner of the 2008 international Green Wine competition. They claim it is organic, "vegan-friendly" (I assume that would mean it is free of dairy), and free of sulfite, chemicals, and preservatives. Do you know of any additives in their wine?
Fascinating! I did not know that. So carbs CAN deplete potassium and the mechanism is known. Thanks William! Do you have a reference where I can learn more about this?
I learned this while a member of http://www.afibbers.org/toboards.htm ,but I don't remember who found it or where.Interesting, I've had numerous symptoms of magnesium deficiency in the past too, and still have some minor symptoms suggestive of that.
Many of them use the three supplements to keep their hearbeat steady, and have experienced the symptoms of carb eating as atrial fibrillation. (Potassium, magnesium, taurine)
My teeth no longer budge at all."QuoteI mean they don't budge when I put my retainer on. I can still move my loosest tooth with my fingers a little bit, but it doesn't wobble like it used to and my tongue can't move it.
I cheated today and ate some 2 cooked bison burgers, 3 cooked eggs and 3 strawberries with lettuce and olive oil because I was too hungry after work to wait until I got home, so I ate at a cafeteria. I was still hungry later and ate some raw meat and melted suet.
Yesterday I walked to work wearing a short-sleeve shirt in 46 degree weather with a "real feel" of 46 degrees without shivering. I think that's the coldest weather I've handled coatless without shivering in my lifetime. I could see my breath. Granted, walking warms the body, but it was still remarkable given how sensitive to the cold I used to be.
I read an article which, as I recall, attributed the ability of the Inuit to go shirtless in 50 degree weather without shivering to the slightly higher levels of internal abdominal fat they have, but I am skin-and-bones and I came close to their feat, so I think diet is a much bigger factor. Animal fats seem to be the key.
I do agree that (raw) animal food in large quantities does protect against the cold and is very useful for me when skiing, but it's a problem in summer, of course. In summer, I usually have to cut down considerably on raw animal food consumption and either just eat very little or greatly increase the amounts of raw plant foods in the diet - otherwise, I start sweating pretty heavily, which is unpleasant....I thought overheating in the summer would be a problem for me too and was prepared to reintroduce some carbs like berries, but it didn't happen. One thing that helped is that it was a cool summer, but even hot temps, whether outside or in my stuffy office, did not bother me. I started thinking about this after my post on handling the cold better. How is it that I also handle heat well too? It's like my body's thermostat is working better or something. Anyone else experience this? I think Lex mentioned something along these lines.
Another change I noticed from the RPD is that even when I haven't gotten much sleep and am very tired I yawn less than I used to and my yawns are much smaller and briefer. Anyone else notice that?
To help prevent tartar, I was thinking of getting something like this:
Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls 60 Pearls
by Nature's Way
Price: $16.39
It contains lactobacillus reuteri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_reuteri). Reuteri has been shown in studies to have dental benefits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_reuteri#Clinical_results_in_humans). Probiotics seem more in keeping with a Paleo/Primal approach than processed sugar alcohols like xylitol. What do you think? I suppose high meat bacteria would be even better, so I will try to learn more about high meats and eventually try more of them. I also started taking some magnesium supplements again--I think I went down to zero too fast.
Another change I noticed from the RPD is that even when I haven't gotten much sleep and am very tired I yawn less than I used to and my yawns are much smaller and briefer. Anyone else notice that?
I also continue to handle cold and hot temperatures better and better. It's like my body's thermostat is getting better tuned on a higher-fat diet.
Yes, me too. I suppose the body is better oxygenated, greatly reduces chance of cancer.Yes, and it's interesting that both cancer cells and bacteria that cause cavities and gum disease are anaerobic.
Should I be forcing myself to drink more water?
I do drink more water when I've eaten a small excess of fat and my saliva becomes slightly sweetened by the resulting ketones (too much ketones makes water taste sickeningly sweet). Could this mean some ketone production is actually a good thing?
Ethyl D, 10. October 2006, 6:19So that is another indicator that eggs are a key factor in the eye color change. I don't find Eades' explanation very compelling (I don't dismiss it, but I think the idea of increased nutrients causing reduction of melanin suggested in this forum makes more sense to me), but even if he's wrong, at least he didn't dismiss or ignore this lady's report.
When I changed to a low-carb diet a few years ago, within a week I noticed a change in my eye color from pale grey-blue to a much deeper turquoise blue. I assumed this change resulted from either the additional eggs or increased fat in my diet. Does this seem likely?
Raw grassfed ground beef is beginning to taste really good to me, especially when eaten with the suet. It's a good development, because now I don't have to pay more for bison and venison to eat meats I really love.
Thanks again for the Esther Gokhale vid, cherimoya_kid. I like how her posture training was inspired by the best role models--traditional and ancient peoples and babies who display a natural posture.
That's good news. How long have you been eating raw meats? The taste-change usually takes c.8-12 months of eating largely raw.Thanks. I had read people here, like Lex, claiming it took quite a while to come to enjoy raw grassfed beef, so I was surprised, because I've only been eating the raw ground grassfed beef for a couple of months. Of course, I was eating some low-heated jerky, raw eggs and VLC before that for several months. Plus, raw venison sausage tasted good to me the second or third time I tried it and raw ground venison tasted very good to me the first time I tried it. I think that the only reason the raw venison sausage tasted only OK the first time I tried it was that it was overly spiced. It's as if I was made for this diet.
I found I was really thirsty after eating if I was eating too much protein and not enough fat. 80% fat = no thirst.I actually desire to drink more water when I've eaten more fat, not less, as a bit too much fat makes produces some ketones that make the water taste slightly sweet and more enjoyable. However, too much fat makes it taste too sweet. I don't have a scale to measure my ratios, so I eat lots of fat, but cut back a bit if my saliva starts getting overly sweet. It's my current natural signal to go easier on the fats.
In The Warrior Diet they explain that, feeling more thirsty than hungry(while eating) is a sign that your body is satisfied & suggest to stop eating at that point. I've tried it. Seems to help with that bloated feeling you get after eating big meals. I haven't done it long term to really come with a better conclusion though.I don't get bloated regardless of how much I eat--not even from 2 lbs of meat and fat at a single extended sitting. I also don't get thirsty much, but I suspect that I should be drinking more water, given the reports of others and given people's reports here about wild carnivores drinking lots of water after eating. I think some natural signal may not be functioning fully in my system, though it's just speculation at this point.
What do you mean about green egg yolk? One that has been left out in the open air for a certain time to rot?He was referring to a chicken that fed on greens and bugs. Just worded kind of funny. :)
HI, I had to laugh about the green egg...Yeah, made me think of Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham. ;)
I also brush my hair, short hair, with a bristle brush twice a day. YOu have to get down to the scalp and stimulate it along with exfoliating it with the bristles.
no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked for them. There are too many social restrictions against raw-foodism for there to be any other reason.*tylerdurden*So true in my case that I decided to add it to my profile for the time being, although I think most of the social restrictions are against raw meats rather than raw plants.
Here's a sample daily menu, have I got the figures right?
Moderately active
159 lbs
2560 calories/day according to http://nutrition.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Daily-Metabolism
breakfast/lunch
1/4 lb bison 164 calories
.09 lb GF beef suet 335 cals.
tap water
Supper
1 lb bison 656 calories
.35 lb GF beef suet 1341 cals.
2 oz chicken liver or high meat 64 cals.
nonsparkling mineral water
Occasional snacks/dessert/variety:
beef jerky with tallow
occasional raw eggs, venison, sashimi, wild clams, etc.
Another health benefit to report: I've been noticing lately that I've been breathing yogically (in through the nose and out through the mouth) as my ordinary breathing when walking or running, whereas I used to do a lot of mouth breathing (and get a dry mouth as a result). I think it's because my sinus passages are much clearer and less swollen so it's much easier for me to breath through my nose now. Perhaps yogic breathing is just the natural way of breathing and is only special to moderners whose nasal passages are slightly too clogged/inflamed to do it without focusing on it? When I'm sitting down I tend to breath through the nose only.
PaleoPhil, may I ask you how long you have been eating raw meat & fat + raw eggs (paleo?)? Do you eat the whole egg and can you compair this between eating cooked egg (and cooked meat)?I've been raw carnivore with occasional cheating for almost 4 months now, and partly raw VLC for a while before that.
Other members on the zerocarb forum do not do well with cooked eggs / cream / cheese; a few like Jeff (he does not drink much more than coffee and "some red w.) seem to eat it all - raw or cooked and don't "notice" a thing (never mention poo, gas, bloat).I find cooked eggs harder to digest, but I don't get as much of the sulphur burps from them as I used to, so I think my digestion is continuing to improve. I prefer raw eggs. It digests very easily and I can't even tell that I've eaten anything, except that I become less hungry. I also like the fact that raw eggs don't make a lot of mess like scrambled eggs do. I like the fattiness of egg yolks. If I run out of suet I eat more eggs until I get more suet.
I still do not "get" the picture - if one is to eat protein (raw or cooked) and fat (raw or cooked) and drink "more water than you feel you need" then how can things not get runny. Delfuego called his discharge runny and find this "normal" but I don't!Perhaps his discharge may be runny because he's digesting a high percentage of the meat, which is his claim, though I'm not sure. We'll know better the longer more people have been on ZC, RAF and raw carnivore.
Some times I can get on with it but so many people seem to have a different result (most call it detox) of "this healthy diet".I've only had the two brief episodes of what some might call detox and I'm not sure what caused them (though I did have raw liver the day before on both occasions--but it hasn't caused the problem other times).
Sorry, but do you do much sport; this must change the picture again...Not really, though I walk and briefly sprint to and from work (about half a mile) and walk up and down 3 flights of stairs at work and sometimes walk downtown (which involves going down and then back up a large, steep hill). I prefer incorporating most of my exercise into my routine rather than running around in circles on a track or on a treadmill or driving through traffic to a gym to work out (running tracks and gyms always seemed artificial and strange to me, even before I went Paleo, though I did try it myself at various times from early on, because my father was a physical education professor, coach and athletic director). I bought some snowshoes, so I plan on doing some snowshoeing once we get some snow on the ground.
Nicola
This is why we turn in surcels >:Well, I wouldn't say I turn in circles, Nicola, but I like the cute grumpy face :).
Poorly-absorbed magnesium oxide works pretty well for me for constipation, whereas magnesium citrate is supposed to be best for calcium oxalate stone prevention. Can anyone here suggest alternatives that might be less controversial here? Are there any acceptable magnesium supplements?
After Tom's comments, larrymagee wrote: "I ate only pemmican for 6 weeks. I had nausea and light colored stools for several weeks. These symptoms went away but I still had burping issues up until the end. I think it just takes a while for the body to adapt."
To some of them, my pemmican might taste undercooked.
There should be enough Mg in the raw meat, so either you are somehow blocking absorption or you are not yet perfect.Yes, I think it's the latter, as my Mg deficiency symptoms are much reduced over what they used to be. Other than the constipation I only get vertigo, and even that I only appear to get when I've gone nearly a day or longer without eating red meat. My first chronic vertigo developed and got pretty bad when I followed my GI doc's advice and took an artificial Px fiber supplement that it turns out causes electrolyte deficiencies (particularly potassium and Mg for me). Luckily, these deficiencies have been improving dramatically on raw carnivore (even VLC was insufficient), but I still appear to have a little ways to go--and the fecal volume reduction appears to have exacerbated things a bit for the moment (and possibly the bone meal also).
Pemmican made with tallow rendered at 170-200°F doesn't really taste cooked. I think that taste may be of unfiltered connective tissue or the solids that escaped filtering. I assume that the solids are proteins, and of course grossly overheated, so poisonous to me.I think she rendered her tallow at much higher temps than that (I was referring to my own usual past practice when I mentioned the 200F tallow) and likely dried her jerky at much higher temps than I do also. The tallow was well filtered, but the pemmican definitely tasted burnt to me. I think she prefers that taste because she also likes to eat her meats well done--and well done meats also taste a little burnt to me at this point. To each their own--I'm not complaining or criticizing, just explaining the differences.
The reason for rendering at that temp is fear of the fat becoming rancid. If you don't make it for long term storage, that reason does not apply.
How do you know that you are constipated - I mean William talks about 10 weeks; how the hell is that possible?
I wonder why Tyler sounds as if he never has problems (ex. for eating rice :D) - perhaps some see problems when they are not really "the problem"? Perhaps the-bear@thebear.org can tell you more about carnivores and rest...
The bear answer to me (I asked why many are having problems with a carivores diet / needing HCI, constipation, runny stooles...)
Ignore
others who complain- send them the rules.
A newborn baby can DIGEST MEAT, the only other food besides human
breast meat it can handle. Meat is SO easy.
The answer to those who have 'problems' is: STOP OBSESSING OVER YOUR FOOD.
Or go back to food you are comfortable with.
--
Perhaps the eggs are not a good thing every day (not paleo)? Perhaps eating more like Lex or Andrew would help you better? ....Perhaps, but my experience has been that I do fine eating them. I've never had the negative symptoms from raw eggs that Tyler and others reported--even when I tried eating 8 at once (on top of 4 I had earlier that same day).
...On the zerocarb forum you wrote in Dan's journal that you are 54 years! I think you meant 45 years?I found the post referencing age 54 and it is one of Phil H's, not mine (you can see it here: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2747&pid=167894#pid167894).
Nicola
The bear answer to me (I asked why many are having problems with a carivores diet / needing HCI, constipation, runny stooles...)
...
I found the post referencing age 54 and it is one of Phil H's, not mine (you can see it here: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2747&pid=167894#pid167894).
When you get the runs have you tried something calcium-rich like bone meal?
My hygienist said that my tartar is probably from excess calcium or phosphorous in my saliva, which is supported here:
I prefer a less-absorbable form of magnesium, such as magnesium oxide, because that can treat both of my two remaining noticeable Mg-deficiency-type symptoms (the others having appeared to resolve): constipation and mild vertigo if I go too long without any Mg supplementation. It works well for me on both.
This is what I'm leaning to getting for my next magnesium supplement order--it's the purest form of Mg oxide I could find:
Magnesium Oxide Powder - 100% Pure
by Now
8 oz
Contains only pure magnesium oxide from ancient ocean deposits.
http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp405119/r04
Is magnesium oxide not "(man)-made"? ...http://www.magnesiaspecialties.com/students.htm
how do you know you need magnesium and wouldn't supplementing cause an unbalance? I mean if a natural diet needs all kinds of processed supplements then we would all have to rethink things?
Vitamin D-3 really reduces my tartar/plaque buildup. You might want to experiment with some D-3 softgels. You can always switch to a more natural form later, if you find that it works for you.Yes, I take two D3 softgels per day along with the one raw CLO gel, so I can get 5000 IUs of D3 without overloading on vitamin A.
Is magnesium oxide not "(man)-made"? ...http://www.magnesiaspecialties.com/students.htmHere's what that source says:
how do you know you need magnesium and wouldn't supplementing cause an unbalance? I mean if a natural diet needs all kinds of processed supplements then we would all have to rethink things?
Nicola
Well I once again got hold of this "OXY-POWDER" new age magnesium - it's quite an interesting read...I mean eating raw is one thing -\Thanks for trying to help, but that web page looks like it is written in German, Nicola. I doubt I could order from it and I can't read what the ingredients are.
It may help in many ways - like kidnee stones, black tears, IBS...
http://www.webspirit.com/kahuna/produkte/oxypowder.htm
Nicola
That web page looks like it is written in German, Nicola. I doubt I could order from it and I can't read what the ingredients are.
I hadn't heard of black tears until Tyler mentioned it. What is it?
I had read a few places that I could increase my intracellular magnesium, without getting diarrhea, by bathing in epsom saltwater. This studyhttp://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:KO8yMO7uJtAJ:www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf+absorb+magnesium+through+skin&hl=en&gl=us didn't measure intracellular magnesium, but it is suggestive. Bathing in epsom salts purportedly has the additional benefit of improving one's skin.Ah yes, I meant to try epsom salt baths. I only tried it once in the past. Maybe I should try it multiple days in a row. Thanks.
Off topic, but the new Sherlock Holmes movie is fantastic. ;D
... high meat today and this time I left it in my mouth for a while--to test how well I can handle the taste (it's not awful, but not good either)--instead of bolting it down immediately and found I got a small bit of tingling and itchiness on my palate and tongue, ... Anyone ... have any idea what it is? Is there any acid in high meat ... I'm ... just curious. ... I plan on continuing to eat high meat.
If anyone has any ideas on how to conveniently heat suet at 104 or below without having to constantly stand over it, let me know.
Could we please have some more terms than suet? It is hard to know what people are talking about... Suet is the fat around the kidneys, but people use it to talk about other stuff. Could we please find, or come up with some more terms. i.e. a general one for all the fat which is like suet, and ones to describe the suet-like fat from specific places..?
Jersey cows and older females produce more yellow fat
For people in the US, are you acquiring these directly from farms or do you have relationships with butchers that carry grass-fed? are fats and organs the kind of thing markets like WF separate on site or do all their muscle meats get shipped as it? I think in the past I've asked for various fats only to get blank stares.Most places just order muscle meat and butcher these as opposed to whole carcasses so you'll rarely if ever find organs outside of liver. Of course you can scout out the supermarkets in poorer areas as these tend to have more organs in my experience (a local ShopRite store stocks liver, heart, tripe, tongues, and occasionally kidney but it's invariably grainfed). Then you have the more specialty markets who do get who animals but it's hard to find one getting grassfed animals.
It seems the majority of people here object to frozen in most cases but I also see alot of posts from people in the US ordering from sites farms like Slankers or US wellness. I personally had no problems with frozen suet but it wasn't the staple of my diet and thus not consumed in larger enough quantities to determine.IMO frozen meat is denatured. It doesn't nourish the body as thoroughly as fresh grassfed meat but frozen grassfed is tons better than fresh grainfed. It's a case of the less of two evils. I personally order supplemental fat and organs from Slankers but get as much fresh muscle meat & fat as I can from my local supplier. I can only get fresh liver from them though so if I want say a tongue I need to call up Slankers.
...If I leave it out overnight, I have to cover it, and then I'm just leaving it again, sitting on one side... Unless you can hang it by a hook I don't see how leaving it out would do much good? It'll just get more decomposed.For those who think that high meat and stink fish may be healthy, more digestible stuff, decomposed is a good thing, not bad (as long as it is done in an oxygen-rich environment). Yes, hanging would be optimal, but a the carcass of a lion's kill is just left lying on the ground (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiJBjsHEi1w--notice also that the more rotted their meat the more jealously the lions appear to guard it), so hanging isn't essential. I've been trying to think how I would hang my meats/fats. Maybe a big wooden box with hooks in it. I probably don't need the refrigeration of commercial meat lockers, since it rarely gets very hot in my home and people in Africa hang meat outdoors in hot temperatures.
Before refrigeration was invented, everybody kept their meat in the coolest place possible, down to 5°C, and butchers still do this to get the best tasting meat.Everybody? Including people living in the Sahara and Kalahari deserts with no electricity? Cooling may be beneficial, but I'm not convinced it's essential. I saw a video on Bushmen hunting and they just dried the meat on tree branches, without any added cooling techniques beyond a little shade from the tree. I emailed my father to ask how my Irish relatives did it before they got their refrigerator in the 1970s.
On ZIOH they are raving about the excellent taste of this, calling it dry aging.Yes, I like the taste too.
I saw a video on Bushmen hunting and they just dried the meat on tree branches, without any added cooling techniques beyond a little shade from the tree.In a tree is the coolest place possible.
In a tree is the coolest place possible. ...A little shade from a scraggly tree in the Kalahari desert isn't going to bring the temp down to 5°C.
Phil:I don't know. I've tried it and didn't care for it and never heard of hunter-gatherers do it, so my suspicion is that they don't. I do know that they tend to chew on bones and consume small, soft bones and bones made soft from fermentation (such as from stink fish, yay!--love every chance I get to say "stink fish").
Can I have your opinion on two things re: raw eggs? I really value your opinion, as you know.
1. Is there a benefit to eating the shell? I could break up the shell into my beef bowl is there is. I'm eating Eggland Best Eggs, so not the typical supermarket brand. I'd love to get the fertilized or pastured eggs you mention.
2. I read that soaking eggs in warm water is enough to unbind the avidin. Some suggested running the egg under hot water before using it raw....Interesting. Hadn't heard that one. I doubt it, since the interior of the egg likely wouldn't be heated much. I could be wrong, though.
I don't know. I've tried it and didn't care for it and never heard of hunter-gatherers do it, so my suspicion is that they don't. I do know that they tend to chew on bones and consume small, soft bones and bones made soft from fermentation (such as from stink fish, yay!--love every chance I get to say "stink fish").
The first & only hit I got from ixquick was:Hahahaha! Yeeeheee!
stink fish
fish member of the family Callionymidae. Cause immediate, forceful vomiting.
Hmm, thought I, PaleoPhil is weirder than I thought. :)
Then I tried scroogle, and it said it's a traditional Inuit delicacy in Alaska. Wonder if they could be persuaded to sell some?Are there some Inuit near you?
Are there some Inuit near you?
I'm afraid it's a myth that one can make ghee that is 100% devoid of lactose or casein.You may be right. Some very believable people report being able to handle ghee despite problems with butter, but perhaps I'm more sensitive, because I did score nearly off the charts in antibody count to every dairy component that was in the test (casein, whey, lactose and "dairy"--whatever that one referred to--as I recall). It's too much of a pain anyway for me to deal with making ghee and trying to get every bit of milk solid out of it.
Are you sure it's constipation as in stools refusing to come out? My own experience when doing without carbs and just eating 1 large meal a day is that it can easily happen that I have a bowel movement once in a 3 orI don't determine it by # of times/day, I determine it by the Bristol Stool Scale and how hard it is and how difficult to pass. Lately it's been ranging from #1 to #3 on the scale. There is a correlation--the longer between BMs, the lower on the scale it goes--but I base it on the scale rather than the frequency. The good news is there isn't visible mucus like there used to be when I was eating cooked and more carbs, so my colon seems less irritated by the stools staying in it.
4 day period, though more usually, it's more frequent than that, of course.
Heavy squats and deadlifts are going to strengthen your core in a more functional manner than crunches or sit-ups or whatever ab exercise ever will.Sure, I don't have room for weights in my apt. or money for a gym membership, but I make do, in part based on the advice given here, and do single-leg squats, frog squats and standard squats. I also sometimes squat-sit when sitting down and always when doing a BM, as it is a natural and beneficial human movement that should be incorporated into everyday practice, not just in special exercise times. I also do other ab exercises that have been demonstrated to be highly effective in exercising the abdominals, like the bicycle crunch and vertical crunch (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/abdominalcorestrength1/qt/Bicycle_Crunch.htm). I actually find the U-sit to be the most effective exercise in stimulating my bowels. It's strange that I can now do hundreds of regular crunches, whereas ten or twenty used to be a struggle, yet my ab muscles don't look substantially larger. My grandfather was like this. Up until his seventies he was as strong as iron, yet very thin and spindly looking.
another volume producer is psylillium husks or flax.Thanks, but I tested those two things probably more extensively than 99% of the people on the planet with little to no benefit and they seemed to exacerbate my problems in the longer run. Between the two, the most effective thing to promote movement for me was to just eat plain flax seeds, perhaps because they irritated the colon. After a while, that was no longer very effective. Check out the video "Fiber Menace" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz53dawDtJ8) for why they're both harmful. I do find flaxseed oil to be effective on the skin and muscles (I witnessed it literally make my fathers red, inflamed muscle pull literally disappear before my eyes as he wiped it on--I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it), but I no longer ingest any flax products. After I got tired of several people insisting I was not taking enough flaxseed oil, seeds or meal I drank a whole 16 ounce glass of it, plus ate a bunch of soaked flaxseeds and flaxseed meal to settle it once and for all. Those people were shocked when I reported that absolutely nothing happened. They were sure that it would give me bad diarrhea to take that much. Yet no matter how much I took and how often it failed, they continued to insist it would eventually work. They were kind of like the raw vegans in their blind faith in this, and still are. I can't believe how much time and money I wasted on flax products. As you can probably tell, this was one of my major mistakes and I regret suggesting to others that they try ingesting it based on the amazing things it did on the surface and on the advice of Cordain and others, despite my own lack of success with it re: internal purposes. I still think it might be medicinally beneficial for some if used over brief periods, but is not advisable to ingest over longer periods. I find I benefit more from animal and seafood fats.
Both I have soaked in water first.Just soaking psyllium in water would likely constipate me pretty badly. You're supposed to mix it in a liquid to avoid it getting too dried up and stuck in your colon.
The flax to get rid of hopefully most of the anti-nutrients, the psyl. to prevent it from soaking up the juices in my stomach etc. It shouldn't take much, maybe a teaspoon once or twice a day. Oh, with the flax, I always chewed it to the point of dissolvement, or blended it. One can soak and sproat them, and lay them out to dry, which then is much easier to chew until liquid. But this was years ago.If one is going to eat flaxseeds then it does make sense to sprout them, because they contain antinutrients of their own.
Psyllium husk and fiber like that makes me constipated like nuts.Yeah, they helped me a little bit at first, but then made things worse.
If you have constipation issues then it's usually because you are over eating. You need to wait until you are very hungry until you eat and then only eat till you're not hungry any more.Problem is, if I don't eat a lot I lose weight and end up looking emaciated. I also notice that my constipation actually tends to worsen when I eat less, probably because even less feces is produced.
On raw paleo you don't need as much food as before to get the nutrients and energy you need. When I have most energy is when I am careful not to over eat.
I don't think that you'll become emaciated.I appreciate the suggestions, but the problem is I already lost some weight when I tried doing one meal a day and let the calories fall down to around 3000/day, and I'm very thin to begin with. I'm trying one meal a day again, but this time if I don't get enough calories in the one meal I eat another. Even now people are telling me I need to add still more weight and I've already lost a few pounds limiting myself to 1-2 meals (my last weighing said I added weight, but it must have been off). At least my strength and overall physical fitness is still gradually improving. I'm hoping that IF plus vitamin D3 (a steroid-type hormone) plus the squats, chin ups, push ups, etc. done in the ways recommended in this forum might trigger muscle growth.
I appreciate the suggestions, but the problem is I already lost some weight when I tried doing one meal a day and let the calories fall down to around 3000/day, and I'm very thin to begin with. I'm trying one meal a day again, but this time if I don't get enough calories in the one meal I eat another.Maybe you try to eat this one meal in the short period of time? My one meal lasts up to 6 yours and I eat several times during that period.
...Eating 3000 calories in 30 minutes would be really a bad idea. I tried that couple of times and I didn't feel goodYes, I agree. Right now I'm trying to eat one meal within a 3 hour evening window, but sometimes go overtime and if I don't get enough food I'll allow myself a 2nd small breakfast or lunch meal.
Phil, I believe that magnesium and other minerals (as you mentioned in Tylers journal - I don't need to tell him because he knows it all better) add to the full picture; I notice that a little magnesium and other minerals (ocean gold) could be helpfull.You must be a mind reader, Nicola, because I did up my magnesium intake, although I was reluctant to do so, and it has helped some. I also learned that coffee binds magnesium as well as zinc (duh, I should have guessed that), so that's another reason for me to stay off that. I hadn't been drinking a lot, but maybe I'm more sensitive to it than the avg person. I drank some tonight, though, because I was up late showing support for my union at a contract negotiation meeting and it was successful, thankfully.
Kelso has never mentioned any trouble...so I don't just listen to one person; as I said, it is often the attitude - the way we deal with life.
Are you taking vitamin D3 - I found out yesterday that that is cholesterol.
Nicola
How much vitamin D3 are you taking - Dr. Harris once again; http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/9/vitamin-d.htmlDon't go by how much I take. You're better off reading Dr. Harris'
I still don't know how people can drink big amounts of water just sitting - it doesn't feel right! Do you drink after/with eating raw meat? How did the cooked meat digest?Yes. Both. Fine.
.. Otto Heinrich Warburg, MD won the Nobel prize for his findings on the respiration of cells, particularly cancer cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis). Warburg found that cancer cells thrive in an anaerobic environment, because they get their energy from an anaerobic fuel source. What is that anaerobic fuel source? The anaerobic fermentation of glucose into pyruvate, presumably fueled by dietary carbs (whether only certain types of carbs provide the fuel and others don't, I don't know), as Warburg indicated in his 1966 lecture at a meeting of Nobel laureates:
"Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar." ("The Prime Cause and Prevention of Cancer," Revised Lindau Lecture, http://healingtools.tripod.com/primecause1.html/)
This toxic anaerobic process apparently bypasses the mitochondria and is apparently also found in Alzheimer's disease http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis#Alzheimer.27s_disease, and doubtless other diseases of civilization as well. Because of this process, some believe that ketogenic diets are potentially effective treatments of cancer.
Believe it or not, I think that carb-induced yawning may be another (far more benign, of course) effect of this process and that it may have implications for athletic performance, since efficient oxygen use and mitochondria are so important in aerobic athletic activities. It could also just be mere fluke coincidence that I experience this no-yawning phenomenon while I avoid plant carbs...
...I was about to concur earlier that I had diminished yawning, as I know for certain that when I yawn in front of the GF speaking that she gets rather miffed. But I yawned just earlier and I don't really consume many carbs.I didn't mean to imply there's necessarily absolute zero yawning on ZC. I still occasionally yawn, but it's pretty rare (probably less than once a week, actually, but I haven't been tracking it carefully, so I was being conservative and granting the possibility of once a week)--I used the term "no-yawning" for simplicity (just like "zero carb", which is not literally zero carb) and hoped it wouldn't cause confusion. It's more of a mouthful to say "near-zero-yawning on ZC," but if the latter term will make things clearer, I'll use it.
how exactly due you see the yawning being a factor, do you think see it allowing for greater uptake of oxygen as with deeper breath?That's what I remember being told as a youth by some teachers (who have loads of experience with yawning youths :D ). When I noticed not long ago that I was rarely yawning and was no longer yawning in contagious response to other people doing so, I remembered being told about yawning being due to oxygen deficiency (though I wasn't completely convinced of it at the time) and I also remembered that anaerobic bacteria are the deadly ones, and Warburg on cancer cells being anaerobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis)and getting their fuel from anaerobic respiration (aka anaerobic fermentation (http://science.jrank.org/pages/322/Anaerobic-Fermentation.html#ixzz0j63ANmCZ)), and wondered if there could be connections between it all.
Don't dog's yawn alot -c commercially fed at least - maybe monitoring carnivorous dogs is a better control than humans who might have other issues at play?Big cats that are obligate carnivores also yawn, and yawning among wild carnivores is the only thing that doesn't fit so far. Big cats are big organ eaters, but whether there's enough carbs in the organs they eat to cause yawning, I don't know. However, yawning cats don't answer the question of why I and some others yawn less on ZC, and why my yawning increases when I eat carbs.
it does list Insufficient oxygen in blood as a possible cause as also opioid withdrawal,Interesting, can you share some links? It makes sense that oxygen-starved blood could be the main link between oxygen deprivation at the cellular level and at the systemic level.
so perhaps it is linked to detox on an all raw diet.I'm not a big fan of the term "detox," as it is very vague and used in multiple and even contradictory ways by different people and is frequently used by vegans/vegetarians to explain away all sorts of nasty side effects of their diets and people selling questionable products, so I don't have much interest in that avenue of exploration, but you are of course free to explore that if you wish.
I do know the Primals think berries can trigger certain kinds of detox.I've noticed yawning is produced by all fruits I've tried, not just berries. Berries actually seem to produce less yawning than some other fruits I've tried.
Funny that you thought of yawning paleophil.Yes, as I recall, the first time I noticed I wasn't yawning much on ZC was when one co-worker yawned and then another yawned in the usual contagious fashion, but I didn't. It was one of the rare times in my life when I didn't yawn contagiously and didn't even have to stifle a yawn. I thought that was odd, then I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I had yawned. I wondered if it could be related to my ZC diet of the time. Later on when I cheated and ate some carbs I yawned quite a bit, adding some confirmation. Each time I've had significant carbs since then I've yawned gapingly within a day of eating them, while rarely yawning gapingly at any other times.
now that you mention it I realize I don't remember the last time I yawned...
Interesting, can you share some links? It makes sense that oxygen-starved blood could be the main link between oxygen deprivation at the cellular level and at the systemic level.
Unfortunately, I still have significant plaque, though it comes off more easily. I'm hoping that CLO and vitamins A, D3 and K2 will eventually help some more with that.
Can you get plaque build-up on ZC(even if you don't brush your teeth)? How does D3 reduce it?
from the full text of the above cited study ["Hypocholesterolemic effect of anhydrous milk fat ghee is mediated by increasing the secretion of biliary lipids."]:
The unheated ghee contained 0.16% cholesterol, of which 1.0% of total sterols were oxysterols ; the corresponding values in oxidized ghee were 0.051% and 17.2%, respectively.
I love the subtle, not at all sweet taste of raw bone marrow.
It looks like I should severely limit or avoid all honey in my case.
That's just how honey is. I get no blood sugar problems from any amount of fruit but honey even in small amounts starts the highs and lows like SAD candy. I think everybody experiences this on honey. Also it tastes way too strong, not pleasant at all.Actually, quite a number of RVAFers have no such issues with raw honey.
Actually, quite a number of RVAFers have no such issues with raw honey.Has anyone else measured their blood glucose after eating it? I'm curious about what results they got and whether anyone else experienced a spike in BG.
Has anyone else measured their blood glucose after eating it? I'm curious about what results they got and whether anyone else experienced a spike in BG.
I've drank a bottle of glucose syrup (when I was vegan) and my bg didn't spike at all.Wow, that's unusual. Do you have any idea of what accounts for that?
Hey, Phil! I hope you don't find this hostile--you KNOW me--but I find your constant attempts to experiment with adding carbs--berries, honey, greens--baffling. Why bother? What possible benefit? If you are eating meat and organs, why would you want to add inferior sources of energy/nutrients to your diet, especially when they cause you distress, and you feel good on raw ZC?:D It doesn't bother me, Katelyn, no, and yes I know you and knew you wouldn't like it, and I know that Tyler and a good friend of mine think the exact opposite--that I'm too pro ZC/VLC and too anti fruits and other plant foods. My idea all along was to get down to a base that didn't cause me problems--nondairy ZC--and then see if I'm able to add back any foods to it from there, and if none of them worked out then I would be fine with ZC including some organs. I'm not yet a fan of most organs, though I'm handling liver a bit better, and while my nutrient deficiencies are much improved, some have not resolved completely, so I think it might be beneficial to include some nutrient-rich plant foods also. Some foods I added, such as young greens and herbs, don't appear to be causing me any problems and I seem to be handling berries somewhat better, though it's still too early to tell.
I am so glad we are friends, Phil, and we can discuss this. I have much respect for both you and Tyler, so enjoy this debate. Is it distaste for liver that is your problem, or digestion? I'd like you to elaborate on this. What makes you think you are not getting all you need from raw ZC?I'm still not thrilled by liver, though I think I'm getting used to it. I don't get all I need from any diet, as I still have some symptoms that suggest mild deficiencies (vitamin K and potassium and maybe iodine and who knows what). This despite the fact that I eat foods rich in these nutrients, such as shellfish and seaweed, so I also take foodlements like Dr. Ron's iodine, and fermented CLO and a partial dose of his multi.
I admit to my ignorance on protocists. Honestly, I think seaweed eating would have been rare, even for Eskimos. Is there much research in this area?Yes, seaweed eating by coastal HGs and other traditional peoples in Arctic and temperate zones around the world has been well documented. Satya has discussed it too.
That said, seaweeds do appear very low in carbs and high in perhaps iodine. Why is bromine needed?Don't know. I read a report that said that too much bromine from excessive seaweed can raise TSH levels. Every food can have down sides in some people, depending on genes, sensitivity, amount and frequency of intake, processing methods, etc.
My preference is to stick to ZC animal foods. That said, I have no issues with energy (if I eat enough) or digestion. I don't see any value to adding carby modern fruits.Yes, I know, thanks.
re ZC-stance:- Perhaps it would be best not to use the slightly dodgy phrase "tolerating carbs" to describe people who actually thrive on little or a lot of raw carbs.I'm not sure what you're referring to, TD. Can you point me to the quote where it says “tolerating carbs”? Thanks.
...perhaps, you are concerned re not always having the right (high-quality raw animal) foods available all the time, and want to be able to have a more varied diet just in case.Yes, that's one of the reasons. There are other reasons too, such as making it easier to be more sociable and reducing the risks of exacerbating existing nutrient deficiencies or developing new ones. The more restrictive a diet the easier it is to miss out on some important nutrients, which is a point that Satya reinforced well for me. I don't eat as much organs as Lex does and I don't have access to animal blood, so being able to get the nutrients they contain in other ways might be helpful and might even enable me to stop taking the foodlements I'm taking, some of which are quite expensive.
As for the carb-experiments, like klowcarb, I really don't see the point re your trying carbs so soon ... makes more sense to try readding carbs after another couple of years on RZCThat's ironic, you're one of the folks whose posts encouraged me to try to see if I can manage to handle keeping some carbs in my diet with your repeated warnings about the dying off of too many carb-digesting intestinal bacteria when going too long without carbs. Originally I thought that giving my system a break from carbs might reduce my carb intolerance by giving my body a chance to heal, but I found other reports supporting your claim, so there's a risk that my carbohydrate intolerance might worsen rather than improve if I don't eat any carbs and I agree with you and Dr. Harris that carbs are not pure poison for all. Based on your past posts, wouldn't going a couple of years without carbs kill off most of the carb-digesting bacteria?
one should really just stick to what works re health.Sure, if it turns out that even raw fruits spike my BG excessively (which I will be testing next), even when eaten with fats, then I figure it will probably be best to avoid them as much as possible at this time. I don't have any plans to intentionally do things that damage my health long term, if that's what you mean. In order to stick to what works I need to find out what works for me. Have you ever tested what effect raw fruits have on your BG? It would be helpful if I had some numbers to compare to from someone who does well on fruits.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, TD. Can you point me to the quote where it says “tolerating carbs”?
That's ironic, you're one of the folks whose posts encouraged me to try to see if I can manage to handle keeping some carbs in my diet with your repeated warnings about the dying off of too many carb-digesting intestinal bacteria when going too long without carbs. Originally I thought that giving my system a break from carbs might reduce my carb intolerance by giving my body a chance to heal, but I found other reports supporting your claim, so there's a risk that my carbohydrate intolerance might worsen rather than improve if I don't eat any carbs and I agree with you and Dr. Harris that carbs are not pure poison for all. Based on your past posts, wouldn't going a couple of years without carbs kill off most of the carb-digesting bacteria?
That was some time back. Don't know which post.If it was one of my posts you are referring to, the only thing I can think of that you might be referencing is that I discussed how I found that carbohydrate intolerance is a known medical condition. Since that is the medical term for it, I don't see a problem with it, but I'll consider any alternative medical terms you care to offer. I wasn't talking about anyone else when I was discussing my problems with plant carbs, so my posts were not meant to be a reflection on anyone else. My journal is mainly meant to be about my experience, not how I think others are doing or what they should eat, as it is not my purpose to tell anyone what to do (though if they ask for help I may try to offer some). My philosophy is similar to Lex's in this.
The point is that the intolerance towards carbs generally starts at a far earlier period than 2 years on VLC or ZC, more like weeks/months. Years of time on RZC shouldn't make it more difficult to readapt to carbs as all one needs is to build up enough carb-related bacteria(by simply eating lots of raw carbs) and getting the body to use the right enzymes etc.I have tried to explain this to you several times, apparently without success. I had symptoms of carb intolerance before I cut the carbs down to VLC and I experienced improvements every step of the way while gradually reducing carbs. I didn't develop a carb intolerance after going VLC. If anything, the intolerance seems to be slightly less now. You seem to be bent on trying to ascribe problems with carb intolerance to VLC or ZC diets themselves for some reason. In my case it does not apply. I'll let others speak for themselves on this.
I have tried to explain this to you several times, apparently without success. I had symptoms of carb intolerance before I cut the carbs down to VLC and I experienced improvements every step of the way while gradually reducing carbs. I didn't develop a carb intolerance after going VLC. If anything, the intolerance seems to be slightly less now. You seem to be bent on trying to ascribe problems with carb intolerance to VLC or ZC diets themselves for some reason. In my case it does not apply. I'll let others speak for themselves on this.No that's not right at all. I suggested that eating only a small amounts of carbs re a VLC diet(<2%?/5%?), in the long-term, meant one gradually became less able to handle raw carbs. One needs more than a tiny bit of raw carbs to ensure the right kind of bacteria-levels, use of enzymes etc. to get used to raw carbs.
In the past I seem to recall you saying that not eating any carbs for too long would kill off the carb-eating bacteria and thus make a ZCer less able to handle carbs--and thus making eating a little bit of plant carbs from time to time a sensible approach, and thereby make VLC more sensible than ZC. Is that not right?
..."Tolerate" sounds like tolerating a poison.But who knows, maybe I'm guilty of using that word re zc diets, in the past - who knows?OK, I can't think of better terminology to use (carbohydrate unthriving/thriving seems a lot more awkward than carbohydrate intolerance/tolerance), so I'll stick with intolerance/tolerance for now, but thanks for letting me know about potential sensitivity re: the term "tolerance." I didn't intend the negative connotation you thought of, but I'll try to remember to make that clear when I use it.
No that's not right at all. I suggested that eating only a small amounts of carbs re a VLC diet(<2%?/5%?), in the long-term, meant one gradually became less able to handle raw carbs. One needs more than a tiny bit of raw carbs to ensure the right kind of bacteria-levels, use of enzymes etc. to get used to raw carbs.Awe, that stinks for me. I don't handle more than a small amount of carbs well, so that's not really an option for me. I was hoping there might be some bacterial benefit from eating a small amount of carbs.
Those who were already unable to do well on raw carbs, for the most part, keep on not being able to deal with carbs, and generally progressively feel worse when they increase the carb-intake once again. In other words, for the latter, it is extremely unlikely that they would regain some form of ability to handle raw carbs until many years have passed, if at all.OK, then it sounds like I have no option but to stick to VLC/ZC for the rest of my life. That has been becoming increasingly clear to me too. I like fruits quite a bit, so I was hoping there might be some chance that I could handle 5-10% or so of calories as raw fruits in the future, but it was a dream rather than an expectation. Thanks for being straight with me and not sugar-coating it (pardon the pun :) ).
OK, then it sounds like I have no option but to stick to VLC/ZC for the rest of my life. That has been becoming increasingly clear to me too. I like fruits quite a bit, so I was hoping there might be some chance that I could handle 5-10% or so of calories as raw fruits in the future, but it was a dream rather than an expectation.
Awe, that stinks for me. I don't handle more than a small amount of carbs well, so that's not really an option for me. I was hoping there might be some bacterial benefit from eating a small amount of carbs.
A couple of days ago I moderately enjoyed the taste of liver for the first time ever. It was a pleasant surprise.
I think your results are more or less normal.I hope you’re right, YS, I do like berries. :) 279 does seem high at 2h though, don’t you think, and don't mild nausea, reflux and now sore throat seem like bad signs? Maybe not everyone thrives on raw fruits.
What is a Normal Blood Sugar?Looks like my numbers after raw honeycomb and raw organic strawberries are far from good and my experience reflected the numbers.
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php
Post-Meal Blood Sugar (Postprandial)
Independent of what they eat, the blood sugar of a truly normal person is:
Under 120 mg/dl (6.6 mmol/L) one or two hours after a meal.
Most normal people are under 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) two hours after eating.
Normal Postprandial Glucose Physiology
http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/491410_2
Postprandial glucose levels are the most important determinant of day-long glycemia.[3] Meal ingestion, regardless of the meal's size, normally results in only transient increases in plasma glucose: concentrations peak at 60 to 90 minutes, rarely exceed 160 mg/dL, and return to preprandial values within 3 hours.[4] Consequently, during a 24-hour period, the average diurnal plasma glucose concentration normally is less than 100 mg/dL.[4] This exquisite regulation is mainly the result of coordinated changes in insulin and glucagon secretion that affect the rates of release of glucose into the circulation and the rates of removal of glucose from the circulation.
2 pints of strawberries yield about 34g of sugars. That's almost 7 tea-spoons full of sugar.From what I’ve read, by 3h the blood sugar should normally return to pre-prandial levels (which is why 1 and 2 hours are standard test time frames), so it should indeed be interesting to see if my BG is still elevated at that point.
I think it'll take some time to get rid of extra sugar.
Try doing test 3h later or more to see how long it really takes to get rid of that sugar.
….I would not focus on numbers, instead I would focus on how I feel. If strawberries give me negative feedback I would simply eliminate or limit them and not worry about numbers.Hmm, first you said to add a third hour measurement—now you’re saying not to focus on numbers and instead focus on “how I feel”. Which is it? ??? :) Either way, I have been tracking how I feel, symptoms, etc., in addition to the numbers in my journal and I felt mildly crappy afterward and the next day. My muscles are also more achy after exercise than usual.
I only eat that much sugars if I plan to do heavy activity, exercise, work, etc.Sure, but that would have skewed my test at the time. Besides, I don't ordinarily eat that much sugars since I went VLC--it was just a test and I was also planning on testing smaller amounts. I did exercise after the 2 hours and quite a bit today, in part hoping it would help me feel better, but it doesn’t seem to have helped noticeably. I also tried an Epsom salts bath to little avail.
and don't mild nausea, reflux and now sore throat seem like bad signs? Maybe not everyone thrives on raw fruits.
Hmm, first you said to add a third hour measurement—now you’re saying not to focus on numbers and instead focus on “how I feel”. Which is it?
Sorry the for the confusion.No prob. Like you, I don't have the interest to do lots of tests and I also don't think it's necessary to go much beyond what I'm doing, though I'm open to ideas and appreciate your trying to help. I'm not looking to convince anyone else or prove things to the level Lex has, just get a better sense of what's going on in my body that experience hasn't explained and share my results in case anyone else is interested or also has some data or experiences they can share with me.
What I meant is if you really interested in obtaining meaningful conclusions based on numbers you need to do more tests to see some repeating patterns.
But if I were in your shoes I would simply search for what works and ignore the science behind it. But that's just me.The two seem contradictory to me, but maybe that's because I've always enjoyed science and found it to be a very useful tool. For example, it was Dr. Eaton's scientific report in the New England Journal of Medicine that produced the "light bulb" that guided me to Paleo diets and a path of healing. Without science there would be no raw Paleo diet and no one would even know what "Paleo" is. It was scientists who invented the term "Paleo" and it was scientists and science-educated physicians (Eaton, Konner, Cordain, etc.) who kicked off the current Paleo diet movement from which RPD eventually sprang.
Have you ever had difficulties with berries or did it start after going paleo?Yes, I had issues before, but I usually didn't eat so many at once and I was eating too many other things to notice as clearly. I also was in some denial about the negative effects that fruits had on me, because I was such an addict of them. I'm still an addict, which probably helps explain why I can't resist trying to find a fruit I can include in my diet. In some ways this forum has been bad for me, because it encourages my raw fruit addiction. If I'm lucky, maybe it's just the strawberries that are an issue among the berries, because I mainly remember issues with them in the past. On the other hand, I do remember some issues with blueberry smoothies too and the reason I didn't react as much to other berries could be because they tend to come in smaller containers and I tended to eat less, so it's probably just wishful thinking on my part. My next planned test is with a small container of raspberries.
Another point I would like to make. Looking at my personal experience I've had bad times combining meat and fruits/berries. If I eat fruits/berries separately I do not experience and negative side effects.I actually get a worse reaction when I eat fruits/berries alone, as my recent strawberry experiment brought home for me once again :( . I've tried eating fat with them too, which was another suggestion, but it didn't help much. Meat and fish seem to help most when I eat berries. I was expecting fat would help more, but it didn't help as much for whatever reason. I think it may be because I still don't digest fat optimally. Meat and fish protein seem to digest best for me, but being VLC means I must eat a lot of animal/fish fat, which I do digest better than fruit & veg. One reason I've been trying to find plant foods I digest reasonably well is that my fat digestion is still not optimized and it's hard to keep the fat intake high.
I'm trying coconut lately (last 4 weeks), eating/drinking both water and meat. I still can't tell if coconut is positive or neutral, but it is definitely not negative.I enjoy coconut but coconut oil makes me nauseas even in fairly small quantities and I find eating whole coconut to be too much bother, though I got one several weeks ago. I haven't noticed nausea from whole coconut meat, though I don't eat it often and have gotten nausea from drinking too much green coconut water at once. I'm hoping that apparent digestive issues like these will improve further with time, but I won't cry if it doesn't happen. ;D
Do you get these symptoms from raw honeycomb too?I do, though not as bad. You can read my reports about it in this journal. I don't get the stomach effects from honey that I do from the acids in many fruits. I do love raw honey, so once in a while I eat small amounts of it as a treat, despite the mild negative effects even small amounts produce. I try to minimize the damage by eating lots of meat and fat with it, though it doesn't offset it completely. Raw honey and raw fruit are the most addictive of the RPD foods for me. So far I've managed to strictly limit them, but if the addiction gets out of hand again I'll drop them completely again. All this talk of honey and fruit is bringing back my cravings. LOL Must ... maintain ... control. :)
From my own experiments it wasn't the sugar that was causing less than perfect digestion of raw meat/fat, it was the fiber in fruit.Fiber could be a factor for me too (some forms of fiber have been linked to mineral depletion, for example), but raw honeycomb, pulpless fruit juice, and all plant carbs also affect me negatively, so sugars appear to be more of a factor for me, and also acids.
I thought I had perfect digestion on fruit and raw meat but it was only after cutting all fruit out that I noticed a much improved digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat. Then I tried raw honeycomb mixed with raw eggs and it did not upset the perfect digestion. So my guess is it must be the fermentation of fiber - or whatever is happening in there as a result of its presence - that is causing some problems. In my case it's just less optimal digestion and absorption of nutrients but with you it may be the same problem but slightly amplified.Glad to hear of your success.
Maybe you could try the honeycomb+raw eggs drink to see what happens and if you are able to tolerate sugar better this way. That is, of course, if it sounds appealing to you.I did come up with that drink independently. It made for a quick calorie boost when I didn't have time to eat meat and I do enjoy it. The eggs don't completely offset the negative effects of the honey for me, unfortunately--at least not yet.
Here's a question for you--if cutting out fruit for a time is supposed to be the cause of my problems with fruit, why didn't the same occur with the plant foods that I don't have much issue with?
Raw honey and raw fruit are the most addictive of the RPD foods for me.
Here's a question for you--if cutting out fruit for a time is supposed to be the cause of my problems with fruit, why didn't the same occur with the plant foods that I don't have much issue with?
you are funny, i am as clueless as you are and everyone else in here.Well, I'm glad you found humor in it, but I wasn't really trying to be funny. Didn't you expect questions would be generated by your apparent suggestion that my 279 mg/dl postprandial BG 2 hours after eating a lot of strawberries is more or less normal? I haven't seen many claims like yours before (on the contrary, I've even seen some fruitarians claim that loads of fruit doesn't spike their blood sugar or cause any of the symptoms I experience, or that such symptoms are just "detox"), so it seems to invite questions. Perhaps you're right about it, but I had little way to judge your claim, so I inquired. I also did some further searching of my own and found several sources that suggest that my numbers were not "normal" or healthy, though those sources unfortunately didn't provide quantities of food or sugars to compare to. I like to ask lots of questions. and maintain an attitude of basically questioning everything, because it's one of the ways I've learned a lot, though not everyone likes answering a lot of questions, of course, so I hope you don't mind mine.
unlike many many reports of sudden progress and then falling behind, i see very very slow but steady progress. why is it different from others - who knows?Right, and that's one of the basic things I'm trying to figure out--why some things don't work for me that do for others, why others work for me that don't for others, what might help me get beyond stubborn plateaus with certain health issues I still have, etc. I find that asking questions, exploring and experimenting helps me work out what really does work best for me. In this way I've managed to work out decent answers to some puzzles that seemed insolvable at first blush.
when i started Weston Price I was producing goat-like poop, very small and very hard. since transitioning to raw meat, my stool has normalized. i'm doing very basic things, more diverse than Lex, but not that much. i do not seek nor i believe in some kind of magic beetle juice or any killer food combinations.Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with you about not seeking any kind of magic, nor do I seek final answers from science papaers. I don't believe in magical cure-alls and try to apply skeptical questioning to extraordinary claims while still also keeping a generally open mind. To me science is not about answers and absolutism. It's about questions. The questions are the thing. It's the path that's important, more than the final destination. To me even religion, spirituality and philosophy seem at their healthiest when they are more about questions and the path (ex: Taoism, shamanism, animism, Eckhart Tolle, Socrates, ...) than answers and the destination (ex: Wahhabism, Osama bin Laden, the Jim Jones cult, the Heaven's Gate cult, ...).
like you i was reading a lot of science papers but came to conclusion that most are either inconclusive or just theories. so i tossed the whole science away for now. if i run into interesting science paper i would read it but would not pay much attention to it.That's fine, I don't expect others to do what I do, and it would probably actually frighten me if a lot of people did. It doesn't bother me that scientific inquiries have been inconclusive or "just theories." Which should be unsurprising to anyone who knows my perspective. Plus, I utilize not just scientific papers, but also my experience, the reports of others of their experiences, the study of nature, experimentation and observation. I guess you could call it a sort of Jeet-Kune-Do approach to finding what works for me re: health and lifestyle. Human beings are fallible creatures incapable of perfection, so anything we produce, whether it be science or what have you, will be imperfect.
i have gained around 7lb so far, i hope to increase it to 10 and then i'll post detailed report along with before and after pictures and maybe a workout video.Cool, thanks.
From a perspective of increasing your health, energy and vitality are you getting anything out of fruit? Or do you want to be able to eat them because you enjoy doing so even though they might not improve any of the above?There are multiple reasons I've listed in the past. Some claim that fruits are crucial for health, so I'm putting those claims to the test, even some big advocates of meats/fish/animal fats say they eat 5% or so carbs, so I'm seeing if I do any better with a small amount of carbs and what the maximum I can handle is before symptoms kick in, I do enjoy the taste of fruits, so I'm seeing if I can manage to have a little fruit treat now and then without harm, I'm just plain curious, some grateful people are urging me to write a book and help others, so I'm trying to get both depth and breadth of knowledge of the subject in case I ever do, etc., etc. It's not just any one thing. I don't tend to think in terms of single answers and single inspirations. Nature seems to be a highly complex web of fractal components. We will never understand it completely or have all the answers, but that's part of what makes nature interesting and we shouldn't give up asking questions because of it.
Something I just realized recently is that the less stimulation we have the more our health seems to grow.I think I know what you mean. I saw a documentary where there was a desert plant that manages to survive on occasional mists of moisture that ocean storms blow into the desert--despite years of no rainstorms. That plant can live to be over a thousand years old.
Would that be the Rose of Jericho plant?
I think I know what you mean. I saw a documentary where there was a desert plant that manages to survive on occasional mists of moisture that ocean storms blow into the desert--despite years of no rainstorms. That plant can live to be over a thousand years old.
When I was on RZC, my stools were extremely infrequent and very small. I didn't view it as constipation, though, just a sign of nearly complete digestion. I'm just thinking that you might have misinterpreted your results.
...I don't know how salty blood really is. I remember tasting my own blood sometimes after a cut and it tasted metallic like, never salty. There may be some blood in the ground beef I am buying but not very much. The little salt that was on the meat my mom prepared did cause the surface of my tongue to feel a bit sore so I'm not sure how much we really need. I can't imagine constipation on raw ZC, maybe it happens only on cooked ZC.I don't know how much is in it either, but blood does at times taste salty to me and other people have reported that it contains it. I did have chronic constipation (based on the Bristol scale) on raw ZC and still have it on raw VLC (and adding some plant foods didn't help noticeably at all). For 2 or 3 weeks I did experience near remission of the problem on raw ZC, so that was the best diet yet for it for me, but the constipation worsened again while still on raw ZC and didn't resolve completely. I was hoping that I just had to get used to the reduced fecal volume, but based on Lex's experience I think I should have had some improvement again by now, so it seems to be more of an issue than just needing to adapt to reduced fecal volume. It was worse on past SAD, vegetarian and near-vegetarian diets, when it was a more severe problem of IBS-C with D.
Start eating more fruit and I guarantee you your constipation will vanish.Thanks for trying to help, ForTheHunt, but in the days when I was eating a lot of fruit I had a more severe case of IBS-C with D, felt like crap, was badly emaciated and seemed to be withering away and becoming increasingly ill to the point where some were concerned I would die (I looked like those emaciated male fruitarians you can see images of at fruitarian forums). Granted, I was eating some nightshades and squashes too, but as I increased fruit intake my problems worsened and as I reduced it they lessened (please no one ask me to list all my negative symptoms from fruit again--please refer to my journal if you're interested, thanks), so fruit also seemed to be a factor. Plus, eating fruit didn't noticeably help the constipation aspect of my IBS. So I hope you'll understand if I'm not thrilled by the prospect of heavy fruit intake, even though I love fruit and would gladly include a hell of a lot more of it in my diet if it didn't have such negative effects on me.
Mango, oranges and pineapple are specially good. Apples, bananas (starchy fruit) not so great for constipation
“In the ongoing debate over what constitutes a healthy or unhealthy diet, the entire issue of postprandial patterns has been ignored. Yet much of heart disease develops IN THE POSTPRANDIAL PERIOD.” HTTP://HEARTSCANBLOG.BLOGSPOT.COM/2010/01/GRETCHENS-POSTPRANDIAL-DIET-EXPERIMENT.HTML?SHOWCOMMENT=1262559338074#C2684603478768420817
“High postprandial glucose values are a coronary risk factor. While conventional guidelines say that a postprandial glucose (i.e., during OGTT) of 140 mg/dl or greater is a concern, coronary risk starts well below this. Risk is increased approximately 50% at 126 mg/dl. Risk may begin with postprandial glucoses as low as 100 mg/dl.
For this reason, postprandial (not OGTT) glucose checks are becoming an integral part of the Track Your Plaque program. We encourage postprandial blood glucose checks, followed by efforts to reduce postprandial glucose if they are high.” http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/blood-sugar-fasting-vs-postprandial.html
Isn't it normal for BG to spike every time you eat anything loaded with sucrose/glucose?Sure, but apparently not as much as mine did, if the other data I found online is any indicator, and I was testing the claim of AV and others that raw honey doesn't spike BG at all because of unnamed enzymes it contains. Even though it was comb-honey made right in the container by the bees, which is even less processed than AV's hand-packed honey, it not only spiked my BG, it sent it into a range that's considered excessive even for diabetics. That can't be good for anyone, can it? If so, how and why?
I will make it through.
Repeat that you will do your best and leave the rest to God
I am whole, healthy and healed.
I embrace the mystery of each new dawn.
My immune system is getting stronger every day. My immune system is powerful and can fight off colds, flu, and diseases. I love my immune system.
I surrender to the flow of life.
I will live a long and healthy life.
Learn to deflect the stress rather than absorb it.
I will always support you, my friend. But I continue to be baffled by your justifications for wanting to eat fruit. For social reasons?Yes, I know Katelyn. Thanks again for your concern. Social reasons are just one of many reasons, as I mentioned.
I think Dr. Harris is right when he says organs are vital, fruits and vegetables are not.He could be. He even calls fruit "tree candy." I've been putting that hypothesis to the test and so far my experience appears to match his claim pretty well, though my experience doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else.
But trying to justify a "need" to eat them seems a stretchI don't feel a "need" to justify eating fruits--just trying to be polite in responding to the questions of why do it and simple curiosity is driving my experiment more than needs. It does make life easier to expand the diet a little, but, as I've said before, if it appears to threaten my health then I won't continue the experiment. The need seems to be more with other people's need to know why I'm doing it, which I'm fascinated by. It's interesting how much ruckus doing a fruit experiment or saying anything too positive or too negative about fruits stirs up. Fruits seem to inspire rather strong feelings and debates.
As for not wanting to lose weight, I do not understand why you just don't force yourself to eat more, especially raw fat.Yes, I'm doing that too. Maybe you're not familiar with Lex's period he hit where he got bored of his ZC mix and apparently lost quite a bit of weight?
You know I hope this does not come out rude. You know how I feel about ZC. I was a very unhappy vegetarian. ....Yeah, I have no desire to try vegetarianism again. I quickly found out that I did very poorly on that WOE, though it didn't occur to me to try carnivory until years later. You and the proponents of omnivory are like the angel and devil on my shoulders. Of course, both sides see themselves as the angel who is right. I'm testing the claims of both sides. Your side does seem to be winning, though there are still questions and apparent exceptions. I seem to be able to handle kelp and young greens OK, for example. I don't care for eating them alone, but I do like them in my mouth when eating bloody raw or fat-dripping cooked meats, for some reason. With the kelp I think it's in part because I have a little bit of taste for salt again, so it's like spicing the meat, and it adds a little texture variety. Coincidentally, chimps put greens in their mouths when eating meats too. I may also have acquired this preference from eating burgers with lettuce leaves instead of buns. This experiment has actually served your case pretty well, because I'm finding out that my BG appears to react more strongly to fruits and honey comb than I expected. Still, the other side could argue that if I again cut out carbs completely that more of my carb-eating flora will die off and I will become even more sensitive to carbs.
I like to ask lots of questions. and maintain an attitude of basically questioning everything, because it's one of the ways I've learned a lot, though not everyone likes answering a lot of questions, of course, so I hope you don't mind mine.
There is some evidence re detox existing
As for photos and videos, they can be a bit deceptive at times. I remember some of my old photos, pre-RPD diet making me seem quite healthy whereas I was actually in great pain.
that is that a genuine detox is one which affects one to a minor or moderate extent and lasts only a short time with one feeling slightly better afterwards than before
Katelyn, thanks again for your concern and I understand where you're coming from, but I'll be fine and won't risk major health damage while I figure out what works for me. It's useful to have strong advocates here of both ZC like you and omnivore like Tyler. I get to see both perspectives this way.
For sure, we are all different and we all have a body messed up in some way ! Results of years of cooked food don't disappear straight away miraculously without leaving long-lasting damages.Yup
Even if we are already thin at the start, we may initially loose some more weight, but after a while (maybe a year) we regain what has been lost and perhaps even more until we reach a normal weight.I gained weight early on via RPD, though I do start losing again if I don't make a conscious effort to eat hearty and I have lost some weight again since I started experimenting again with raw fruits and raw honey and people are getting concerned again with my weight. I think it has had more to do with being rather busy lately and forgetting to eat or running out of time to eat the necessary amount of food to maintain my weight than with the fruits.
By forcing yourself to eat more than you instinctively would, you get into a vicious circle of overload in some nutrient your body cannot use at the moment and you may feel therefore less and less hungry.Haven't experienced that, but thanks for the warning.
It's also very important when switching to raw food to have enough choice so that you can find what your body needs the most for the time being and to avoid overfeeding on some unneeded nutrients.Yes, I expanded my choices beyond what Lex eats in part because of this.
Nothing that could be found in the nature should be excluded a priori for theoretical or idealistic reasons.Yes, that would be anathema to me. I do what works for me.
Of course it's not perfect since we are in interaction with our environment and we live in a more or less spoiled situation. But still sufficient as long as we avoid processed food, dairy, grain and also as long as the foodstuff we may need is available.In my case I haven't found it sufficient, but this may be due largely to my damaged gut and flora.
Animals in captivity are often fed unsuitable or processed food and therefore their instinct is somehow fooled.Correct. However, instincts do not always lead to 100% "optimal" behaviors even in the wild in the sense of what modern humans think of as health optimization. To anthropomorphize: Nature is not "concerned" with optimizing health into old age--it generally just works to ensure the sexual reproduction of species and some species even naturally die out as Nature changes, for Nature is not concerned with ensuring the survival of one single species--so it doesn't always work in what we see as our best interests. We have a different perspective than Nature's. We want to ensure the survival and health optimization of the human species well into old age-especially ourselves as individuals, and even at the expense of countless other species. I am more Instincto than probably 99+% of the human race. I just don't find that it applies 100% perfectly in all cases for me. I find I also need to think consciously about what I'm doing too (such as eating enough food and drinking enough water) in some cases. I think it's important for people like me to share these exceptions to the reported rules so that others in the same boat don't rely solely on instinct and possibly risk their health. It's not meant as a criticism of the basic principles of Instincto.
I've been avoiding carbs more completely and upping my fat levels again and am amazed at the positive results. It's surprising how much negative effect just eating a little bit of carbs from local, organic raw berries and grapes one or two times a week and letting fat intake drop just a little can have. There is much less dry skin on my face and scalp, my mouth and teeth aren't coated with the layer of scum I get overnight from eating organic raw fruits, my hair loss is slightly reduced, and I feel improved. It's not that I felt sick while allowing myself a little fruit, it's just that I didn't get quite as optimal a feeling. It's hard to describe. I missed that mild sense of well being, though I get less of it than I did early on.
I can't wiggle any of them with my tongue right now
Since laying off fruit again I'm noticing less dry skin and scalp flakes and my teeth have further firmed.
were they that loose? which ones?Yes, the lower two front teeth were the loosest, and others had started to loosen.
Great news man. It's good to see that things are improving for you.Thanks
... but seeing since my other meats (or this same meat at 3 months) did not cause any burning, I imagine their potency was not enough to be so instantly abrasive but probably still therapeutic in the gut. Antifungals like alcohol for instance, usually similarly 'burn' bacteria laden tissue even though the effects on regular tissue like skin are nil. This is all just a hunch of course as my micro-biology is a bit rusty :)Yeah, I think my high meat took about 5-6 months before it started tingling my mouth. I wouldn't call it an abrasive or burning feeling, it's more like the tingling I used to get from walnuts or honey, except more pleasant--sort of invigorating, for lack of a better term--with no associated itchiness. The first few times it was surprising, and I could see how some might be startled or even turned off by it, like William was with Blue Ice CLO, but I figured it was a good sign and got used to it pretty quickly. If my experience w/ the Blue Ice is any indication, I'm guessing that the tingling from high meat will diminish over time if I keep eating it.
Goodbye SandmanI had not realized this until you just mentioned it but I've had the same results.
A symptom that disappeared that I'm not sure whether I reported in the past or not: "sand" in the eyes. I no longer ever get this, regardless of how few or many hours of sleep I get, since going VLC. So perhaps the sandman only visits those who eat substantial carbs? Any other VLC/ZCers experience this?
wild organic Maine blueberries for sale at the market I bought a pint. I ate a cup of them and measured by BG before and 1 hour postprandial. The 1 hour number was actually lower than the measure before I ate the berries!
Stop eating fruit, please! Lol, you are like a guy that keeps asking out a girl in a new way, and she keeps saying no!
Paleophil what do you mean by constipation...? If you mean you have a bloated discomfort in your guts I'd recommend eating fresh lean'ish raw beef.
omg paleophil, you're beating yourself up forcing fruits, lol.LOL, I'd like to blame it on all the talk about sweet, juicy fruits at this forum, but I know it's up to me to try to block that out and resist. There's less temptation at the Dirty Carnivore forum and they're a better influence on me, but there's still some more I'd like to learn here too about the raw and Paleo aspects of my diet. Fat helps a little, but I can eat tons and tons of fat without getting diarrhea. I shock people with this ability. For example, for years my father told me to take flaxseed oil, without any noticeable benefit. I got fed up and I drank an entire 10 oz glass of flaxseed oil to prove to him and a friend that no amount of flaxseed oil gave me diarrhea or helped with my constipation at all. LOL I think that finally convinced him--at least he doesn't bug me to take flaxseed oil any more. And wouldn't you know it, since then multiple sources have indicated that flaxseed oil is not even all that healthy after all. I even got scolded at the Paleofood forum for daring to even mention using it.
as for constipation... extra fat? can you eat coconut oil? when i used to eat it (quite a while ago), it was like an instant bowel movement for me. that's really embarrassing, btw, but i'm just trying to help :D
Paleophil what do you mean by constipation...? If you mean you have a bloated discomfort in your guts I'd recommend eating fresh lean'ish raw beef.No bloating or discomfort, no. I mean #1-2 on the Bristol stool scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale. Usually dry, hard pellets that are difficult to pass. Constipation has been a lifelong problem for me. It had gradually gotten worse over the years and become IBS-C with D, but the RPD did calm it down to just plain chronic constipation. I already eat lots of fresh raw beef and I've never heard of someone claiming that lean meat helps with constipation--usually they say just the opposite and I do find that fat helps more than lean, though not completely.
Wow, are you sure it's not stress related? anger?LOL, no I've heard that suggestion before and I've tried relaxation techniques like yoga and meditation (and still do them because I enjoy them) and even tried relaxing medications, but that didn't help noticeably with the constipation and it doesn't correlate directly with stress that I've noticed over the years--I wish it were that easy. Stress can probably worsen it some in some people, but when constipation is chronic, at most daily stressors can vary the intensity a bit in some people and in me there is little to no correlation. Stress is more another symptom than a cause. Some stressful days it will be pretty good and some very relaxed days it will be at its worst. As a matter of fact, it tends to get a bit worse on vacations, I think because I get out of my routine a bit, and going at regular times and eating at regularly times helps a bit.
you seem like a nice guy, caring , hard worker etc
This makes you prone to back pain, IBS, anxiety etc. IMO
Fat helps a little, but I can eat tons and tons of fat without getting diarrhea.
I didn't mean diarrhea... fat (not in excess, though) just makes me go, lol. For sure 10 oz any oil would hurt me -[LOL, yeah, I'm sure it would hurt a lot of people. Stuff that gives other people diarrhea either has no effect on me or acts like a mild laxative. To give you an idea of what it's like, you know how people complain about how bad it is, with sometimes violent, frequent diarrhea when they have to take that Golightly stuff and get cleaned out before a colonoscopy? For me it wasn't unpleasant at all. It was just like taking a good laxative that actually worked for me. It took quite a long time before it kicked in and it had a rather gentle effect. I was waiting for the horrible part that people told me about, but it never came. I was surprised that I even managed to get cleaned out. Eventually I was even given a Px by a gastroenterologist to take a smaller dose of that Golightly stuff on a daily basis! And it only helped a little! :o If that doesn't convince people that it's more than just some stress or anxiety, I don't know what will. :D
I had constipation for 10 years. Everyday. That was my main IBS symptom.Ah, I didn't know you were thinking of your own experience and didn't mean to give the impression that I would take your experience lightly. Feel free to share what worked for you, if you like. I was in a silly mood at the time and I guess I was chuckling at the irony of your post given that I was feeling good and jamming to some positive music at the time and thinking of the marvelous calm, serenity and at times even euphoria I've experienced over the last year or so, despite the continued constipation (although it has improved from the IBS it used to be). I have been having less of the euphoria very recently, though, so maybe that's a clue of some sort, or maybe my body is just getting used to my diet at this point. I think Tyler mentioned that the euphoria he got from high meat eventually wears off if he eats it frequently.
I know what you talk about, I am too embarassed to talk about the extreme lengths I've had to take. So my thoughts are not to be taken lightley on the subject.
Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Ascorbic Acid Controlled-Release Capsules:
Diarrhea; nausea; upset stomach; vomiting.
Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Ascorbic Acid Controlled-Release Capsules:
Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); kidney stones (eg, abdominal pain/back pain, painful urination).
Read more: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/ascorbic-acid-side-effects.html#ixzz0xbYI3Yy6
Well I'm sorry PaleoPhil.I know you were only trying to help, Alphagruis. I guess this has been a lesson for both of us--be careful what you recommend and how you recommend it and be careful what recommendations you follow and how you follow them. I suppose thorough research beforehand and increased caution by both of us might have helped in this case. I had some experience with vitamin C and had done some past research, and unfortunately put too much reliance on this and my high opinion of you. In my impatience for progress I didn't investigate further before embarking on the experiment.
I think that ascobic acid whatever the dose should be taken in solution of pure stuff in water. If the acid taste appears to be too harsh just stop drinking and intake or switch to a solution of sodium ascorbate. I do not recommand to buy capsules but rather the pure stuff in the form of powder.
In France it's available for wine growers in cheap 1kg bags. You can get it in the US for instance here:This is one of those rare instances when I can feel justified saying hell no! Never again. It would be unwise and irrational for me to do that given my experiences on both occasions I tried it and I humbly suggest that you don't recommend it to anyone without strong warnings about the potential problems of severe diarrhea and nausea and with chronic use for gastritis and kidney stones (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-vitaminc.html), which are commonly listed as side effects for high doses of ascorbic acid, and from my experience I would add stomach upset and reflux. I despised ascorbic acid in the pure-powder-with-water form. It was harsh on my stomach and even 3 g produced a little reflux with very little benefit, which are the reasons why I tried leaving it in the capsules. I could probably manage the vitamin C powder drinks, which are buffered with refined sugar, but I don't handle refined sugar well, or any sweetener for that matter, and would rather not take it as a regular treatment. My problem is not a occasional constipation, but chronic. This is an important distinction that bears repeating, as many people are only personally familiar with acute constipation and wrongly assume that all constipation is the same. I already have senna and mega dose magnesium, which I far, far prefer to ascorbic acid, for the acute cases of particularly bad constipation. I need something I can take nearly every day.
http://www.sourcenaturals.com/search/?terms=sodium+ascorbate
Now, if Vit C doesn't help maybe, as Iguana already suggested as far as I can remember, you should also give a try to cassia fistula, the fruit used by instinctos and claimed by Burger to help in body detox. This might well bear some truth and at any rate whenever I used it to this purpose it invariably triggered bowel movement in me a few hours after intake.Yes, cassia fistula is a legume, like senna and both contain quinones (the quinones in senna that are the main active ingredients are senna glycosides). Senna is readily available where I live, but I've never seen cassia fistula fruit, which is probably why I've never seen it recommended anywhere except this forum and Burger's Anopsology.
This is a legume whose fruit contains quinones well known for their laxative properties.
One eats just the sweet fruitpulp (only if attractive according to instincto stance ;)) that surrounds the seeds. The latter are toxic.If the fruit were also not mildly toxic by including milder levels of toxins like quinone glycosides, it would likely not have nearly as much of a laxative effect. This is one thing that many fruit fans don't seem to be aware of--that even fruits as well as seeds and other parts of plants can contain toxic substances. Fruits are not always totally free of toxins, they just usually contain lower concentrations of defensive chemicals and less toxic varieties. The fruit-plant strategy seems to be to include just enough insecticide-type toxins to discourage small predators that aren't large enough to consume the seeds and spread them through defecation, but not so much that the fruit becomes bitter to larger animals that can spread the seeds of the fruit.
Hi Phil,Yes, I know you meant coconuts, Hanna, thanks. Coconut water makes me nauseous and I don't like the idea of just throwing it out so as to eat the coconut meat, which I seem to handle relatively well, although I suppose I could try diluting it with water. Plus coconuts have to be shipped quite a distance (think less fresh and use of fossil fuels) and I also find it a hassle to have to open coconuts and separate the meat from the pith, so I don't think I'll ever make them a staple food, though I occasionally buy one (about once a year). It was my idea to try coconut oil again, because I can eat a tiny amount at a time, it preserves well and it provides another fat option. Fats are important to my diet because I don't eat much carbs. I doubt that I'll make coconut oil a regular part of my diet, though, for some of the above and other reasons (like expense--animal fats are much cheaper).
Of course I did not mean coconut oil, but coconuts.
And just a warning to prevent another disaster: Cassia fistula can cause abdominal pain, even if eaten instinctively.Thanks for the warning, that might explain why I've never seen anyone recommend it outside of Instinctos.
I would not eat it regularly, because it is rich in anthraquinones, which are carcinogenic and otherwise detrimental.Yes, anthraquinones is apparently the specific type of quinones in cassia fistula, if I understand what I read on it. I thought about using that term, but didn't want to possibly complicate things by using a different term than Alphagruis used. I didn't know that a carcinogenic link had already been found. Do you have any sources you can refer me to, as I couldn't find any on long-term side effects of cassia fistula consumption?
Fruits like papaya are very easily digestible and contain almost no acid.Yeah, and papaya seem low in sugar and I seem to handle them better than most fruit. One problem is they are one of the few fruits that taste bad to me. However, if it works for me like a laxative, then I would eat it. It hasn't in the past, but maybe I didn't eat enough. It's worth another try.
but I certainly don't seem to handle fruits well. For me, despite being a fruit lover and hoping they would work for me, fruits do generally seem to have the effect of tree candy, and if that pisses off some of my fellow fruit lovers, too bad.
So I certainly agree that we have to be careful and cassia for instance should certainly not be ingested routinely, whether "instinctively" or not (as instinctos often do to get rid of their more or less systematic fruit or avocado overeating.)Correct. Senna and high-dose Mg work semi-OK for me as acute remedies, and they are the most effective acute remedies I've tried so far, but I mainly need a solution for chronic symptoms--preferably one that is natural and low in toxicity, such as food(s) that can be eaten daily or near-daily. Plus, since senna sometimes has some unpleasant effects in me even when used just once and since Mg doesn't tend to work as well as senna unless I increase the dosage to very high levels and risk overdose, I secondarily also look at possible alternative acute treatments (such as my recent failed vitamin C experiment).
Thanks also to Alphagruis for your links. This is an interesting quote from the first one: "every species of plant analyzed contains its own set of perhaps a few dozen toxins". Of course, some people prefer to call them phytonutrients and claim that they are cure-alls. The debate over which plants are safe to eat, in what quantities, at what stages in their development, with what processing, how much we have adapted to various natural pesticides/phytonutrients, etc. will likely rage on long after I'm dead and gone.
Is it true that Ames found or claimed citric acid to be cancerogenic? Gcb, was this a write error?
I remember instinctive eater´s recommendation to force the cassia intake and to eat as much cassia as possible (i. e. up to the instinctive stop), even if one does not really like the cassia. So this is (or was) not originally your recommendation, gcb?
Alpha, these two articles seem to be very exciting - thanks!
...So it is clearly impossible to ingest food without any "toxins".Sure, but there are clearly also significant differences in levels of toxins and in human's evolved enzyme ability to break down the toxins. If we didn't believe that we wouldn't bother to eat Paleo and avoid the more toxic foods like grains and legumes--instead we would basically just eat whatever we liked the taste of.
Depending on plant and animal species and their present condition such as stress, animal health and ability to detox etc etc more or less plant matter can be ingested and taken advantage of.Yes, and I think genetics and epigenetics play a role also. My whole clan on both sides of the family seem particularly susceptible to the diseases of civilization from eating SAD or vegetarian diets and multiple physical features run in my family's genes that are associated with ancestral hunter peoples.
This should also be clearly realised and then kept in mind by some "raw food ayatollahs" ....I know your position on "natural nutrition", Alphagruis, and some of your criticisms of it do appear plausible, but I'd rather not have a lengthy debate between you and GCB dominate my thread, if you don't mind.
So in your case, PaleoPhil I would not definitively discard plant foods such as cassia or senna . I agree with you that the laxative properties are most likely a clear sign of the presence of toxic molecules but the overall result of its intake may be nevertheless temporarily very beneficialYes, temporarily. Like I said, I'm using senna but probably too much if anything. I'd like to reduce my use to occasional temporary use. Even if it weren't toxic, it seems with me that the effectiveness decreases the longer it's used.
I know your position on "natural nutrition", Alphagruis, and some of your criticisms of it do appear plausible, but I'd rather not have a lengthy debate between you and GCB dominate my thread, if you don't mind.
LOL, I'd like to blame it on all the talk about sweet, juicy fruits at this forum, but I know it's up to me to try to block that out and resist. There's less temptation at the Dirty Carnivore forum and they're a better influence on me, but there's still some more I'd like to learn here too about the raw and Paleo aspects of my diet.
It took me years to get over the social embarrassment of talking about it and I finally started asking about it when I tried various things and nothing worked and I was getting fed up with it. There seems to be this widespread feeling that most people who have chronic constipation don't really, so that people like me who really do have it have to answer all sorts of questions. The Bristol stool scale is a big help, because it's a single standard that nearly everyone can agree on and easily understand. Unfortunately, it means looking at images of poop, but it's the best way I've found to explain it.
Sure, but there are clearly also significant differences in levels of toxins and in human's evolved enzyme ability to break down the toxins. If we didn't believe that we wouldn't bother to eat Paleo and avoid the more toxic foods like grains and legumes--instead we would basically just eat whatever we liked the taste of.
Yes, and I think genetics and epigenetics play a role also. My whole clan on both sides of the family seem particularly susceptible to the diseases of civilization from eating SAD or vegetarian diets and multiple physical features run in my family's genes that are associated with ancestral hunter peoples.
....My point was just to warn against idyllic dogmatic views and relevant demonizations such as "plants are bad and meat is good" or "plant X is bad and plant Y is good" or even "cooked is bad or raw is good".It depends on what you mean by Paleo and there's where much of the disagreement lies. Before humans started cooking they and their hominoid ancestors survived for millions of years on all raw foods. So one thing that is debated is did humans adapt to cooked foods and if so how much? Plus, were the adaptations beneficial, as Wrangham suggests, or were they merely degenerations of the sort Weston Price talked about? I believe humans did adapt/change from gradually increased cooking but so far the evidence suggests to me that most of the adaption/change was degenerative (ex: smaller, weaker jaws, finer bones, etc.), though it's hard to know what changes occurred due to increased cooking and what resulted from changes in the foods consumed. Wrangham's main point seems to be brain size increase, but most scientists disagree with cooking as the cause. The majority of scientific opinion currently tilts toward increased raw animal fat consumption.
For instance, systematically overeating raw stuff such as dried fruits or nuts or even raw animal fats or muscles, because of various ideologies, might well not be much better and most likely be even worse than eating some cooked stuff in ones meals in limited amounts on average as our paleo HGs ancestors did.
There is indeed a genetic variability but to which extent is your present strong intolerance of fruit or plant foods to trace back to this and is there so strong a determinism? You suffer probably from some damage that is at least partly reversible. Epigenetic changes are.I think genetics, epigenetics and damage from SAD are likely all factors and I'm hoping that more healing will come.
It depends on what you mean by Paleo and there's where much of the disagreement lies. Before humans started cooking they and their hominoid ancestors survived for millions of years on all raw foods. So one thing that is debated is did humans adapt to cooked foods and if so how much? Plus, were the adaptations beneficial, as Wrangham suggests, or were they merely degenerations of the sort Weston Price talked about? I believe humans did adapt/change from gradually increased cooking but so far the evidence suggests to me that most of the adaption/change was degenerative (ex: smaller, weaker jaws, finer bones, etc.), though it's hard to know what changes occurred due to increased cooking and what resulted from changes in the foods consumed. Wrangham's main point seems to be brain size increase, but most scientists disagree with cooking as the cause. The majority of scientific opinion currently tilts toward increased raw animal fat consumption.
Fibromyalgia: Increased regular physical activity as 'exercise' in fibromyalgia
S. E. Gowans
p499 | doi:10.1038/nrrheum.2010.135
http://www.nature.com/nrrheum/journal/v6/n9/full/nrrheum.2010.135.html
Although the benefits of exercise for individuals with fibromyalgia are well known, it can be difficult for individuals to begin or maintain an exercise regimen. A recent trial examined whether defining “exercise” as increases in regular home-based physical activities might improve exercise compliance.
Maybe the strong acidity of the pineapple contributed to this?That is why I normally avoid pineapple, but I didn't think that two small chunks could have such a significant effect.
Hey Phil have you ever tried eating just {fruits}(mainly), {nuts, comb honey, bonemarrow}(Lesser) and then occasionally a smallish amount of fatty meat when you feel like it?Yes, I've tried nearly every possible combination and ratio after years of experimentation. I even recently tried a near-fruitarian diet that included a small amount of nuts and fatty fish after some wacko troll who was banned from this forum challenged me to do so and I reported my negative results in this forum. I was curious to see if my ability to handle fruits had improved at all since going raw, but it unfortunately did not. I find that every increase in fruits causes an increase in negative symptoms. Eating plentiful raw fat with raw fruit reduces the symptoms, but doesn't eliminate them.
I do best on Meat/fat only, but also well when I eat like I said above. However I don't do well if I eat meat/fat mainly, and then add in some fruit/honey. If you want to enjoy fruit maybe it would help eating like I said above now and again? I don't know.As I have reported before, I find that when I eat sequentially and avoid combining, I actual handle fruit worse, not better. That's one reason why I don't pay much attention to the Natural Hygiene advice to avoid combining. When I eat berries or coconut oil I find I digest it better in the style of Yupik Eskimo akutaq--fat mixed with berries, meat or herbs--rather than sequentially. So in this case for me the Yupik way works better than the Natural Hygiene way. I know of no traditional culture that follows rules of sequential eating or mono eating, do you? When it comes to what works for me, I put more credence in my own experience and the thousands of years of experience of traditional cultures than I do the high theory of Natural Hygiene gurus.
I'm fine combining fats with carbs, and fats with protein, but not so great combining carbs with substantial protein. So no, I don't believe any of those things, as none of them contain much protein.You're not required to believe anything. I know for myself that I experience no additional problems when I eat lean meat protein (like eye of round or top round) with fruit than when I eat fruit alone. I actually seem to do a slight bit better, though fat helps more and neither completely eliminates my problems with fruit, unfortunatetly. Eating fruit alone works worst of all for me.
Hmm if a human group has abundant fruits and can even find bones with marrow and even scraps of meat, do you think they will bother to hunt? I don't.Apparently you weren't swayed at all by the real-life HG story I shared where they went hunting immediately after they acquired a large amount of honeycomb/grubcomb and gorged on some of it. Can you name a single HG or pastoralist people that follows SE rules? I'm not convinced that my HG ancestors would have followed Natural Hygiene SE rules that weren't even developed until the 1800s, and there's no evidence that any traditional culture does SE/Natural Hygiene even today. More importantly, SE makes things worse for me, rather than better. Like Lex, I notice no benefit from SE. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
I can minimize the minor stomach gas from avocado if I mash it and mix it with some raw honey.
Even eating just 1 tbsp of raw honey with 2 avocadoes my chapped lips worsened. They never chap when I eat ZC and almost never chap when I eat no honey and just a small amount of berries once or twice a week. This stinks because honey makes the avocado palatable.
Perhaps you shouldn’t eat avocados if it’s not palatable for you without mixing it with honey. And reciprocally, one certainly shouldn’t eat honey if it’s not palatable without mixing it with something else.Thanks for trying to help, but raw honey is easily very palatable for me without anything added--too much so--and I actually experience slightly less negative symptoms when I mix it with something fatty than on its own, as I've reported before. It shouldn't be surprising because hunter-gatherers eat the fatty grubcomb along with the honeycomb. I've gone back to artificially restricting my raw honey intake, which goes against Instincto but appears to serve my health better. On this my experience backs what KD and KGH have written more than you and GCB, sorry.
Cheers
François
I find it very hard to add or even maintain weight and ameliorate constipation when doing ZC or standard VLC.
Wrangham openly lied. He pretended that it was physically impossible to survive on a diet of raw meat and get enough daily calories unless one chewed raw meats constantly for between 5.7 to 6.2 hours a day. This is such an outrageous lie, given multiple RVAFers' experience proving that, actually, one needs to eat less raw foods than cooked foods in order to survive and thrive. What is absolutely disgraceful is that Wrangham quite clearly hadn't even bothered to check raw foodists' experience and just made up an arbitrary figure, as RVAFers don't even need to spend an hour eating raw meats, let alone 5 or 6 hours to get their daily nutritional needs.
Tyler is right that raw meat is highly nutritious and has no anti nutrients. We stand in agreement. But Wrangham showed that it is difficult to get enough calories on raw eating alone, whether high or low carb.
"Alot of primal-ish stuff is good for bowel transit: raw butter, egg bombardment, ...."Yes, you've got the gist of what has worked for me re: GI function--soft foods with an emphasis on soft fats and eggs. I didn't handle butter well at last try. It's the right idea, though, because it's a soft fat. Eggs seem to be a winner for me, and marrow, mashed avocado (except for a bit of gas if I eat too much of them on their own, but much less of a stomach issue than with coconut oil), and some foods that aren't raw Paleo--tallow and lard and sometimes cooked sweet potato, though too much of the latter sits in my stomach like a lump, so it's a tertiary food for me and I'm hoping that I find other raw underground storage organs to add to the parsnips I like. I plan to buy a grater to improve the digestibility of the raw USOs, though I haven't noticed stomach or GI problems from small to moderate amounts.
"Fruits contain water, but whatever underling process of absorption can actually dry out the cells over time or in the short term."Yeah, it's puzzling that plant carbs so quickly dry out my skin regardless of how much water I consume and given that they contain water themselves. I haven't found an explanation of this yet. I can understand how fat moisturizes my skin, because skin is composed partly of fat.
"I don't know how laissez faire people are about fruits here, so I wouldn't let that pressure lead to too many drawn out experiments."Aye, I don't see it as pressure so much as somewhat of a temptation that I try to manage.
"and alot of things have their own selfish purposes and will fight for survival through you."I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs. Is that what you mean?
"how do you do on leafy greens?"They seem to be a neutral food for me, thanks. No harm (at least not from the young tasty ones) but no noticeable benefit either. I figure they probably do a small amount of good, such as via vitamin K, that's just too small to notice. And I like the chewiness and different texture that they add to my food.
"Sorry to hear that, Phil and I feel a bit guilty."
"Are you absolutely sure the honey you have is 100% correct?"No, I know it's not 100% unheated. As I've stated before, they use a centrifuge. It's the best available in the healthfood and farmers' markets locally and I fare better on it than any other honey sold locally, including the heated Manuka honey. I've ordered and tried 100% unheated honeycomb before, but the difference was so slight it didn't seem to be worth the extra cost. It would be marvelous, though, if I could eat all the unheated honeycomb I want. That would be like a dream come true. :D Maybe I'll try some more of the completely unheated stuff some day.
"Besides, I'm amazed that you still brush your teeth with toothpaste containing fluoride, which is a violent poison and would contribute to tooth fragility...."
"with seawater only- or plain water in case I have no seawater."That doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid.
Also, didn't you write that you drank coffee?Sometimes, yes, but my intake didn't increase substantially the last several months and if anything the coffee seems to provide a therapeutic benefit similar to that of senna tea. I know the normal instinctive reaction is to search for culprits other than those that challenge our cherished beliefs and desires and I'd like to blame it all on coffee, but I don't get the sense that coffee was the issue for me. I used to drink more coffee in years past than recently.
"Hope you'll get better and overcome your health problems anyhow."Thanks
I would do a stool test, preferably several, one for VLC and one for moderate Carbs to see how much and what kind of undigested matter you are passing out. the results might give you some clues.Do you have any to recommend?
For the life of me, Phil 8), I cannot understand your continuing fascination with raw fruit and honey. Ew >D.LOL Good to see you post here again Katelyn.
Just eat rare warmed meat. It is easier to digest and you get more calories that way.I do eat some crockpot cooked meaty bones occasionally, as well as rendered fat more often now, but lean meat of any sort appears to dehydrate inside me before it gets out the other end, so I've cut down on my intake. Tough, fibrous veggies also seem to be constipating for me.
It doesn't work for me with my bodybuilding to try to eat raw meat, raw eggs, everything cold, etc.Yes, that's one reason why I eat some cooked foods, fruits and honey--to keep my weight up.
Just my 2 cents. I wish you were on Facebook because I am writing series of Notes about my ZC journey and my thoughts.I'd rather that my forum persona wasn't connected with my real life persona as I say some private things in forums that I'd prefer to keep relatively private. I also like to keep the raw aspect of my diet relatively private and even the Paleo aspect somewhat private.
ys wrote:
Quote
I would do a stool test, preferably several, one for VLC and one for moderate Carbs to see how much and what kind of undigested matter you are passing out. the results might give you some clues.
Do you have any to recommend?
Do you have any to recommend?
Phil: That might be THE eye-opener for my wanting fruit/sweet stuff couple days ago after such a long time not having touched any of the stuff: maybe it's somehow dying off of old bacteria still living in my gut flora? I always have a bloated belly after eating carbs, no matter how tiny the amount/what type of carbs-so maybe candida issues? And now as the bacteria are dying off due to ZC eating I get some cravings every now and then?
I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs. Is that what you mean?
I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs. Is that what you mean?
Despite your ridiculous implication by default, my reasons for such withering attacks are instead....Heh, heh, I know I can always count on you for a rebuttal. I wrote that with tongue in cheek but didn't think to add a smiley, sorry. At any rate, while my statement was somewhat exaggerated for humorous effect, you kind of proved my point with this response. :D
a) that the anti-rawpalaeo claims usually cite some fraud like Wrangham....Yeah, I appreciate your taking time to refute Wrangham's claims, though I prefer not to try to figure out whether his motivations are fraudulent or not. My best guess is that he's just biased by his vegetarian and feminist orientation and perhaps unconsciously or semi-consciously seeking out data that confirms his biases, but it's just a guess and doesn't determine how factual his claims are.
...there is damn little info, by contrast, favouring the notion that the more one cooks a food, the healthier that food is for the human body! No studies showing that well-charred meats are always superior to raw meats or whatever.I haven't seen anyone argue in favor of that, so you seem to be tilting at windmills here. The sense I get is that some folks find, for whatever reason, that adding some temporary flexibility to their diet from 100% raw Paleo purity can help restore them to full health so that they can perhaps eat a more purely raw Paleo diet in the future if they wish. The problem is, this could also become an excuse for lack of dietary discipline, so I try to be cautious with it and I'm not recommending it to anyone else, just reporting my results. Pure raw Paleo is obviously the original hominin dietary category, but some of us have undergone years of damage from modern foods. I find that doing some processing, whether it's chopping or rendering or what have you, seems to enable me to digest some foods more thoroughly and reduce constipation. I'm hoping that it's a temporary fix or that I will figure out a more raw Paleo way of achieving the same results.
Heh, heh, I know I can always count on you for a rebuttal. I wrote that with tongue in cheek but didn't think to add a smiley, sorry. At any rate, while my statement was somewhat exaggerated for humorous effect, you kind of proved my point with this response. :DNot in the slightest. After all, your prior aim was to provoke a reaction on my part.
KD: That is a very intelligent post and makes a lot of sense: I have similar views. However: I don't know if a more varied diet than ZC would actually really be better (for me) as I had the most health benefits eating ZC. The more I reduced my plant foods the better my skin looked, the strnger my nails became, my nose was never runny anymore etc. On the other hand: I think that maybe the more "healthy" your diet becomes the more strongly you react in a negative way to substances that your body cannot handle that well. Like when you have a habit of coffee drinking: you don't notice negative effects that strong as you would if you were to stop drinking coffee fow a while and then reintroduce it back.
Nicole
Wrangham openly lied. He pretended that it was physically impossible to survive on a diet of raw meat and get enough daily calories unless one chewed raw meats constantly for between 5.7 to 6.2 hours a day. This is such an outrageous lie, given multiple RVAFers' experience proving that, actually, one needs to eat less raw foods than cooked foods in order to survive and thrive. What is absolutely disgraceful is that Wrangham quite clearly hadn't even bothered to check raw foodists' experience and just made up an arbitrary figure, as RVAFers don't even need to spend an hour eating raw meats, let alone 5 or 6 hours to get their daily nutritional needs.
Paleophil , quite rightly, pointed out previously that Wrangham had clear vegetarian biases and a (presumably related) feminist bias.Yeah, but I don't get the sense that he's deliberately lying and there's no proof of that, if it's at all possible to provide strong evidence that someone is intentionally lying inside their mind short of maybe a lie detector test. Instead, it seems more likely that like most people he may have "confirmation bias" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias [later edit: ah, good, I see below that you noticed this too]). Besides, like I suggested, it's not very productive to waste too much time trying to read peoples' minds to figure out their motivations and thought processes.
He is also highly evasive.I won't disagree with you there, but again, I think you could do more productive things than focus on criticizing others personally, such as perhaps refute their points with solid evidence. When you do that I find your posts much more persuasive and less offputting.
...then done numerous studies in which he only selectively chooses the evidence that favours his theory and discards anything opposing his notions, commonly then resulting with other scientists unable to duplicate his results and/or proving the exact opposite :-Yes, now I think you are more on the right target and it's easier, though still difficult, to provide evidence and a persuasive argument of confirmation bias than of conscious lying. I suspect that confirmation bias is the key problem that is misdirecting Dr. Wrangham, and it is a common error in scientific research. However, I acknowledge that I can't prove this. It's more of a hunch supported by what I consider fairly persuasive circumstantial evidence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Another obvious point:- a chimp's lifestyle is somewhat sedentary at certain times, so it would be perfectly possible for a chimp to chew on something for hours without necessarily needing to.This is a good point that I don't recall Wrangham addressing. Other scientists have reported that chimps like to slowly savor monkey meat, as it's apparently their favorite food (although I wonder if the chimps that eat honey prefer that). To assume that raw meat takes a long time for humans to eat because it takes chimps a long time is bogus for this and other reasons, like different jaw morphology, as you pointed out.
As for Wrangham's mention that a cooked diet isn't necessarily all that ideal, he, of course, had to say that, given that cooked diets are notorious for making people obese, whereas one of the main selling-points of a raw food diet(raw vegan especially) is that they lead to weight-loss.Yes, it is ironic that Wrangham has argued that the increased calories from cooking foods is a good thing and made humans bigger, stronger, with bigger brains, etc., but at the same time acknowledges that it contributes to the deleterious effect of obesity. It's good to see that you have touched on some persuasive facts and not just personal attacks.
I do think a varied diet can potentially be a benefit though : / and do think that variety within animals (at least including whole animals/organs if not sea or poultry etc..) probably should be the first place to turn for a craving or nutrition-skeptical carnivore.Yes, I don't understand how some ZCers who avoid or dismiss organs reconcile that with justifying their diet by claiming that humans are natural carnivorous predators, given that the favorite food of carnivorous predators like big cats and canids is reportedly offal. A diet of only muscle meats and butter doesn't have an equivalent in any wild animal or traditional human population I've read about. Even the Masai and Inuit eat organs and other foods and even Stefansson admitted that indigenous North Americans relished marrow, the liver of "loche" (loach fish) and even moose nose:
I do agree the coffee analogy does apply to many things though.Yes, that was an excellent point by Nicole. Sometimes we don't know that we are getting negative effects from consuming a food (such as the coffee example) until we avoid it for a while and then reintroduce it, or that we are getting negative effects from not eating something until we reintroduce it (as with the vegetarians/vegans and meats).
Yes, I don't understand how some ZCers who avoid or dismiss organs reconcile that with justifying their diet by claiming that humans are natural carnivorous predators, given that the favorite food of carnivorous predators like big cats and canids is reportedly offal. A diet of only muscle meats and butter doesn't have an equivalent in any wild animal or traditional human population I've read about.I totally agree with this. I eat a wide variety of different animals-and that not only means ruminants but also wild boar, pork, all sorts of different fowl and eat organs as well. Oh I also eat fish-some times a lot and several days a weak. This is also somewhat different from Lex's way of eating, who is quite happy and succesful with his theory and practice that man thrives best on red meat (beef, elk etc.) However I myself am not satisfied for a longer period of time when I have the same animal only. My hunger tends to increase after some time and I have observed also that cravings start when I eat the same type of animal for weeks on end. I assume each animal species has a different nutrient profile ???
I totally agree with this. I eat a wide variety of different animals-and that not only means ruminants but also wild boar, pork, all sorts of different fowl and eat organs as well. Oh I also eat fish-some times a lot and several days a weak. This is also somewhat different from Lex's way of eating, who is quite happy and succesful with his theory and practice that man thrives best on red meat (beef, elk etc.) However I myself am not satisfied for a longer period of time when I have the same animal only. My hunger tends to increase after some time and I have observed also that cravings start when I eat the same type of animal for weeks on end. I assume each animal species has a different nutrient profile ???Correct, they have widely differing nutrient-profiles, plus there are differences between grassfed meats depending on whether the farmer feeds them grains in winter or not, or if the farmer has grazing fields with extra nutritious herbs like clover etc..
Nicole
really tough connective tissue like raw lung
Why do you always say lung is tough? The lungs I've eaten are soft like marshmallow..Hardly. It's full of cartilage.
What's wrong with cartilage? They are only tiny short tubes.. I don't even notice them.Perhaps you cut up the raw lung into such tiny pieces that it's not a bother.
Still didn't try cassia fistula, Phil?I found a source for it at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HW5SA4/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A14UNMB2R96UBX, which is convenient for me because I buy other stuff via Amazon, and I added it to my cart. It's an organic vendor (http://www.naturalzing.com/nzaboutus.htm). It will go through with my next order.
???
Hey Phil,Yes, I used to eat and enjoy some nightshade peppers but found I did better without them. I occasionally eat garlic. Do you eat it rare? If so, how do you eat it? Garlic is very strong rare. Do you dry it?
The other day I had a single air dried hot pepper-well it was stimulating my digestive system...and that (funny...) made me think of you, as you seem to have pretty poor digestion: Have you tried eating more hot/spicy stuff along with meat (such as pepper, garlic etc?)
Nicole
It is made by adding 50ml of magnesium hydroxide (I use MoM) to one litre of carbonated soda water, any basic one will do.Yes, I know it's considered heresy here by some, but I do use small amounts of some supplemental Mg free of any stearate or additives and eat some Mg-rich foods as part of my program for dealing with chronic decades-long constipation and dental issues. I try to use supplements that are as much like foods as possible--I call them foodlements--to minimize added risk.
I occasionally eat garlic. Do you eat it rare? If so, how do you eat it? Garlic is very strong rare. Do you dry it?I eat it raw. But I am probably used to the strong taste as I have been eating it raw since childhood (people in Germany like to put raw garlic slices on bread with salami ;))
I found a source for it at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HW5SA4/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A14UNMB2R96UBX, which is convenient for me because I buy other stuff via Amazon, and I added it to my cart. It's an organic vendor (http://www.naturalzing.com/nzaboutus.htm). It will go through with my next order.
How long does cassia last before going "bad"? How do you store it? Do you eat it? If so, about how often do you eat it and about how much at one time, on average? Does it work to reverse the underlying problems that cause constipation or is it just a temporary fix that one must keep taking as constipation develops?
You can break it with a nutcracker or with the teeth and suck the soft parts, then spit the hard wooden parts and seeds.Wooden parts? :P
I suck some disks when it smells and tastes good, at least half an hour before a meal, usually in the morning or in the evening before going to sleep.How often, on avg?
In the link you provided, is $10.95 the price for one stick only? If so, it's much too expensive.OK, I'll check elsewhere, thanks.
Wooden parts? :PYes, the shell is a kind of thin wood and each disk has also a thin wood frame on each side of which there’s the soft thing to suck!
How often, on avg?You can test its smell (once the shell is broken) everyday or twice a day (or even anytime you like) and have some everyday as long as you like its taste. Personally I do long periods without it and then I have it again for some period… it doesn’t change much for me if eat some everyday or not.
... no knowledge at all about lectins, enzymes, proteins, antinutrients, etc. and moreover I don’t know whether cassia fistula is a legume or whatever. All these classification of foodstuff are artificial, like every classification. I don’t give a damn about it ...
Toxicity is always dependent on the dose.Not just dose; also frequency and duration. Toxins accumulate.
Not just dose; also frequency and duration. Toxins accumulate.
POPs are organic chemical compounds which bioaccumulate in animals and humans. (http://www.ipen.org/ipenweb/generalpublic/whatpops.html) These pollutants are primarily the products and by-products of human industrial processes.
You can break it with a nutcracker or with the teeth and suck the soft parts, then spit the hard wooden parts and seeds. I suck some disks when it smells and tastes good, at least half an hour before a meal, usually in the morning or in the evening before going to sleep. Begin gradually with 4 or 5 discs maximum and then you can double the amount everyday until you reach the instinctive stop which occurs for me with a hard, strong too sweet taste, almost mouth burning
I don't know much about the seasonality, perhaps someone else can fill me in on that.Simply that flowers only bloom part of the year so pollen is collected and honey is made at those times only. I suppose you could find hives outside of this period though.
Phil; My apologies if you mentioned this earlier in the journal but roughly how much honey are you ingesting at once to test your blood sugar?Usually 2 tablespoons (34 g carbs per nutritiondata), as mentioned above. That's enough to shoot my BG above 200 to see how well it returns to normal after 2-3 hours. No need to go higher like a pound of honey like what Brady eats. Less than 1-2 tbsps doesn't seem like enough to satisfy me. Kind of like trying to eat just one potato chip.
Also, have you tried the honey in conjunction with a fat to see how it affects your blood sugar response?Yes, I did report on that some time ago. As I recall, it had provided a small reduction in the BG spike.
I've personally had success with a very minimal amount of raw comb with a typical meal of suet & ground beef. Anything more than the scant 1/2 teaspoon with 1 pound ground and ~1/4 pound suet and I get soreness to my eyes.Interesting. I haven't had the sore eyes experience, though I do wake up with sand in my eyes sometimes if I overdo it on honey. I seem to handle 2 tbsps in a day relatively OK, with a little bit of dry skin, but I do get substantially worse dry skin, particularly dry forehead and chapped lips, when I eat well over 2 tbsps in a day.
So sorry for forgetting your past post Iguana. My memory is poor, probably due to decades of damage by modern foods.
Are the disks you speak of the dividing walls between the seeds inside the cassia bean pod? All I see is an extremely hard outer pod shell, inner dividing walls stuck to the shell, and small seeds in between the walls. Unless you had told me that cassia fistula were edible, I would never have guessed it, nor guessed which parts to eat (I would have guessed the seeds, as they look the most foodlike). I sucked on a few of the walls. They do dissolve. I don't care for the taste from the beginning (it's mildly bitter with a bit of excessive sweetness) and I didn't detect any smell. By sticking my nose right up to it I detected a mild and mildly unpleasant smell. So I guess my alliesthetic senses are telling me to not eat these. GCB advised to force oneself to eat the cassia fistula beyond what the senses indicate in the beginning, which for me was the first taste, to basically break the constipation log jam, so I did so to try it out.
I tried sucking on 4 of the little internal wall dividers last night until they dissolved in my mouth. No noticeable effects today.
What parts of these do the monkeys eat? I find it difficult to imagine that they would pick out the little wall dividers and ignore the seeds, but I have no info on this beyond what you've reported. How do the monkeys open them, by crushing them with their teeth?
djr, i find this interesting about your 1/2 tsp of honey. it seems calorically and nutritionally negligible to me, but obviously it's not. i don't get it. does it have to be honey??I don't know yet. I'll try it with something else in the future and keep everyone posted in my journal. :)
Yes, most people don’t swallow the seeds and the hard part of the disks which are between the seeds but only the brown-black soft thing which dissolves in the mouth. Some pods are not tasty, too dry, while some others are yummy.I think I got one of the dry ones. It didn't have anything truly soft in it. All I see are the hard outer shell, the inner dividers that dissolve in my mouth, and the seeds.
So, you may go up to 8 today, 16 tomorrow, 32, the day after, 64 the next day, then 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2028… (doubling the amount each day). I bet your constipation will be over before you reach 2028… ;) ;DI went up to 8 last night and it did get the bowels moving but it had the sort of harsh effect that senna pills have on me, plus it created a lot of foul smelling flatulence. I'll spare folks the graphic details, but the stools were far from optimal and also foul smelling and I felt an unpleasant sensation as they came out and had some mild cramping. I also developed a bit of throat mucus, which in my experience is my body's way of trying to expel something inflammatory or irritating that I ate, like acidic foods and high-antinutrient or poorly tolerated foods. Not so much a detox as a protox. ;D I was hoping that a senna "food" would be less harsh than the senna pills, but apparently not for me. This is the same sort of experience I have with senna pills--they go from not working at all to working harshly, with little or no in-between, although senna tea works less harshly for me, but still more harshly than avocados with eggs.
I’ve never been able to observe a monkey eating it, that’s just what I’ve been told. I guess they crush it with their teeth like I do sometimes and they spit the parts they don’t like as no one told’em spitting is not nice in society…No offense, but I can see why those people who said the monkeys eat it don't eat the cassia fistula themselves and leave it to the monkeys. ;D
Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.
If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available? Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health? Would you interrupt a bacterial illness by taking antibiotics? Would you go to a dermatologist in case you get rashes? What do you think comes out of the nose when we have a cold? How do you explain we can get colds in hot tropical climates?I saw (or rather smelled -v) it again a few months ago when I bought 6 weeks old hens which had been fed on factory feedstuffs. Their manure had a foul smell which progressively diminished and almost disappeared over a duration of one to two months, even that they were now only grazing, fed raw leftovers and a bit of organic unheated millet. So, it perfectly confirmed once again that the duration of detoxination is of the same order of magnitude than the duration of intoxination, as GCB had noticed during his 45 years experience and meticulous observations on hundreds of animals and humans.
I agree that not every negative symptom is due to detox, of course, and the examples you give show it perfectly. But it’s clearly illogical as well to jump on the opposite belief that detox doesn’t exist.Yes, it would be, but I didn't claim that "detox" doesn't exist and no two people seem to have the exact same meaning of the word, so I wouldn't even necessarily know what I was claiming doesn't exist, and thus it's not clear that anyone is jumping on that "belief". Straw men arguments are also clearly illogical.
I saw (or rather smelled -v) it again a few months ago when I bought 6 weeks old hens which had been fed on factory feedstuffs. Their manure had a foul smell which progressively diminished and almost disappeared over a duration of one to two months, ....Well it's been way more than two months since I ate SAD, so by your own standards then it's apparently highly unlikely that the symptoms I got after consuming cassia fistula were related to SAD eating years ago.
I didn't claim that "detox" doesn't exist
Well it's been way more than two months since I ate SAD, so by your own standards then it's apparently highly unlikely that the symptoms I got after consuming cassia fistula were related to SAD eating years ago.
(…) the duration of detoxination is of the same order of magnitude than the duration of intoxination (…)
On an unrelated topic that was hit upon recently in my journal, I came across something rather interesting:
"Dates contain elemental fluorine that is useful in protecting teeth against decay." (The fruit of the date palm: its possible use as the best food for the future? (http://www.noorbiotechnologies.com/The%20fruit%20of%20the%20date%20palm%20its%20possible%20use%20as%20the%20best%20food%20for%20the%20future.pdf))
Sorry, I thought you believed that no detox can occur. So, you admit detox could happen, then?I don't see everything as fitting into neat binary boxes, including "detox." I don't see it as a choice between accepting everything GCB says about detox or rejecting any notion like it completely. I believe that detoxification can happen, but my conception of detox appears to differ somewhat from yours. I find it highly more likely that the symptoms I got came from detoxing the cassia fistula I ate the day before than from modern foods eaten years ago. Cassia fistula contains known medicinal substances that the body deals with by expelling as rapidly as possible, thus contributing to its laxative effect, which can be beneficial on a short-term basis, but is generally not recommended chronically. In other words, I think it's more likely that my body was detoxing from the cassia fistula that I ate the night before than from the pizza I ate 30 years ago, which would be OK if it weren't so harsh. Sennoside therapeutics like Cassia fistula remain in my toolkit, but they are a last resort.
I don't see everything as fitting into neat binary boxes, including "detox." I don't see it as a choice between accepting everything GCB says about detox or rejecting any notion like it completely.
I believe that detoxification can happen, but my conception of detox appears to differ somewhat from yours. I find it highly more likely that the symptoms I got came from detoxing the cassia fistula I ate the day before than from modern foods eaten years ago.
Paleo dieters argue incessantly over whether wild animals are lean or fatty. Those who say they're lean point to the fact that there is much less intramuscular fat in wild and grassfed animals (and I've witnessed this myself in every cut of meat and hunted kill I've ever seen) and there are lean seasons where even the fat depots are diminished.
How much fat has a real wild bison? Does anybody here know? Unfortunately wild bison is not available in Europe. Is the hump on the back full of edible fat?
There is wild Bison in europe, it's called Wisent.
BTW: Domesticated 100% grassfed ruminants can have huge (!) amounts of intramuscular fat! It all depends on the breed. For example: Some cuts of 100% grassfed Galloway are overloaded with intramuscular fat. The myth that grassfeeding means lean meat is repeated again and again. The breed is determining the fat distribution.I don't know whether this is in response to what I wrote or not, but just to clarify what I meant, I meant grainfed vs. grassfed for the same breed of animal--in other words, all other things than the feed being equal. So, for example, a grassfed Galloway would probably have less intramuscular fat than a grainfed Galloway, though I haven't seen the meat of this breed myself. Have you seen the meat of grainfed vs. grassfed Galloway? It would be interesting to know how much difference there is and to see images of both, plus compare those to the meat of say wild water buffalo and grassfed and grainfed domesticated American bison.
Therefore it would be very interesting to analyse an Aurochs. Exactly this animal was hunted to extinction. Was it much fatter than deer and venison? But we can be very sure that there was only very little intramuscular fat in meat cuts.Likely so on both those questions, but it would indeed be interesting to have live aurochs to analyze. Some are trying to re-breed them back into existence, but they will never be precisely the same as the originals, of course.
Subject: Re: Paleo vs. Neanderthin
From: Ray Audette
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:26:19 -0600
To interpret what humans ate during Paleolithic times it is necessary to
understand the Pleistocene:
As Loren Cordain has pointed out, the primary game species of the
Pleistocene contined much more fat than even those domestic animals who have
been bred to express their Pleistocene DNA origins and store extra fat.
That the majority of large Pleistocene animals are extinct ( 60% of all
large mammal and bird species) makes it difficult to imagine the fat
available to those who inhabited their range.
This huge grassland covered a much larger portion of the earth than do the
dry grasslands of today. Studies of pollen sediments indicate that trees
and woody stemed vegetables were much rarer than they are today and grew
much slower due to the lower concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere
according to glacier gas studies) . Lush grasslands covered most of the
Earth now dominated by forrests.
Even in the dry grasslands of today the traditional people such as Plains
Indians, Tutsis and Mogols consume a diet that is far higher in fat than
even I consume. In such places edible vegetables are rare and fruit trees
don't grow at all. In such conditions one must consume at least 60% of
calories as fat to survive. Stefansson also found these conditions in the
Arctic even though the Tundra is of too high a latitude to support abundant
grasses. At lower latitude and CO2 levels even the berries that constitute
the entire Inuit vegatable food would be even more scarce and replaced by
grasses. These lush grasslands would support far more high fat animals than
all the domestic animals that we produce today and we were evolved to
utalize this bounty.
Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
Subject: Re: Vitamin Philosophy (Re: Vitamin B12 experiences
From: Ray Audette
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:37:35 -0500
From: Amadeus Schmidt >
> ... I suppose that ice age animals *were* more fatty in northern
regions.
Do you mean like Texas (which was the home to many species of Pleistocene Megafauna) or southern Asia (likewise). Durring that time the weather in Texas was very similar to today in the summer (but with more rain). Winter was brutal but very brief.
> Do *you* have any information of the fat of a
> horse, mammouth, sabbertooth tiger?
Cordain recently published an article showing how the megafauna were very high in fat. He speculated that paleo man needed no vegetable suplementation as this fat represented over 60% of calories in these animals allowing most of it to be eaten without protein poisoning ( rabbit starvation).
> For this, the animals of an african savannah should be more
representative,
> and this represents the main timeframe of paleolithicum.
The steppe-tundra of the Pleistocene was far larger than the tropical savannahs of the time and contained far more animals. Tropical regions shrunk as the temperate regions with their megafauna moved southward. Megafauna comprised over 60% of all large mammal species and far outnumbered any other species of the time.
Homo Sapiens are also Pleistocene Megafauna appearing only when the ice ages began about two million years ago to exploit the new game rich enviroment. During the warm interglacials ( about 10,000 years every 100,000 years) humans suffered as their hunting territories moved north to lattitudes where winters were less severe but considerably longer.
During the last mini-iceage (100-1400 AD), vikings living on Iceland had no vegetable foods at all and were granted a dispensation from the Pope to use dried fish as communion host. From their remains it has been determined that they were far healthier during this time than before or since.
Subject: Re: beef
From: Ray Audette
Reply-To: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:26:13 -0700
Brian Glass wrote:
>but resorted to picking on beef.
> I have been unable to find any research that proves this to be wrong.
> Does anyone else know of any studies that do?
> See Am. Heart Journal, April '62 for an article "Cardiovascular Studies
in the Samburu Tribe of Northern Kenya". This tribe eats almost nothing
but meat and milk of cows. Their average fat consumption was 60% of
calories!
It was found that they had very low cholesterol that it actually went
down with age. No heart disease was found.
Other later studies confirmed these results of an all beef diet in other
Tutsi tribes.
Is the hump on the back full of edible fat?Yes, someone reported here that the back fat of American bison tastes excellent.
What the ZIOH ZCers tend to ignore is that the wild animals of the Stone Age and today store most of their fat in depots rather than intramuscularly, yet the ZCers tend to not eat much of the fat depot fat and they claim that grainfed intramuscular fat is just as healthy, which seems like speculation. Even if there are studies on it, it's likely that we don't know all the differences. Nature is complex.
I don't know whether this is in response to what I wrote or not, but just to clarify what I meant, I meant grainfed vs. grassfed for the same breed of animal--in other words, all other things than the feed being equal. So, for example, a grassfed Galloway would probably have less intramuscular fat than a grainfed Galloway, though I haven't seen the meat of this breed myself. Have you seen the meat of grainfed vs. grassfed Galloway? It would be interesting to know how much difference there is and to see images of both, plus compare those to the meat of say wild water buffalo and grassfed and grainfed domesticated American bison.
What the ZIOH ZCers tend to ignore is that the wild animals of the Stone Age and today store most of their fat in depots rather than intramuscularly, yet the ZCers tend to not eat much of the fat depot fat and they claim that grainfed intramuscular fat is just as healthy, which seems like speculation. Even if there are studies on it, it's likely that we don't know all the differences. Nature is complex.
ZIOH is an embarrassment to me, a paleo, whole animal ZCer. In fact, I will refer to them as FZC, for frankenfood ZC.
Didn't you recommend grain-fed meat and organs recently?
Klowcarb, how can you be sure about grain-fed meat? I guess that you are on zc only a few years, right? So, no long-term experience... And in the case of toxins the effects usually become visible only after many years.
Löwenherz
You, Lowenherz, are ASSUMING that any grainfed meat has toxins in it. That is unfounded.
If you think Del Fuego is cool for feeding his kids only dehydrated meat and making sure they never socialize with other children, I'm scared :D.:o When I was reading that forum he posted about eating organs and other stuff on occasion. Is he back to eating just pemmican? I didn't know he doesn't let his kids socialize. Why does he do that, do you know? I guess it's his kids that are most remarkable, really. They have cute chubby cheeks and big smiles and always seem happy and silly. Some of the happiest kids I've ever seen, actually, along with my Paleo nephews. I do wonder whether they're getting enough nutrients for the long term, especially if they're never eating organs.
I wish I could trap you, Phil, and get you over your obsession with "needing" something other than animal foods.Huh? You don't like Del Fuego's eating just pemmican and yet you also don't like that I've added back some other foods I found I can handle? I agree that pemmican or raw meat and fat alone is not enough in the long run, which is one reason why I've worked on finding what other foods I can add to the foundation of meat and fat, starting with eggs and organs early on after I had been on the meat/fat base elimination diet for a few months and my improvements plateaued. Ironically, all the folks I know in the real world who know what I eat think I should add more foods, not subtract some.
You are never satisfied.I can't prove a negative, so I won't bother.
You admit that you feel best eating animal foods onlyYeah, the key word is "feel." I get the best euphoria when I eat raw meat and lots of raw fat, but too much of the meat worsens my chronic C and I tend to lose weight, which were additional incentives to see what other foods I could add, and so far it has helped. Hooray! Interestingly, IIRC, Matt Stone reported that he experienced the euphoria too, but also experienced underweight and other problems until he started adding other foods back. KGH also reported that he didn't have the energy to do hard manual work until he added some carbs. Tyler and plenty of other folks have reported similar things. Unlike the LC haters, I do also recognize that some people have done great with little or no carb intake and I don't find it to be a necessity to eat plants and honey for the carbs, they just happen to be softer and easier to digest than meats and fish. And like Lex I'm not wedded to any single way of doing things, so if things don't go well I adjust as necessary. I don't understand why I should see things as some sort of war between LC and higher carb.
You saw my pictures, right? You see that I can build muscle while being effortlessly lean (15% for a woman--that is in the LOW END of the ATHLETIC range!) on a highly nutrient dense ZC WOE. I am so happy eating this way.Yeah, congrats again! I'm so happy for you. You really showed those ZIOH folks that you could succeed without their psychoanalyzing.
I never yearn for honey or fruit...why? They make me hungry,That's one reason I eat them--they improve my appetite and enable me to eat more to keep my weight up. I agree that folks who are trying to lose body fat would be wise to be careful with those foods. After all, they are used by bears to put on body fat during the summer and early fall as preparation for the winter hibernation.
I don't understand your not being satisfied.I'm just finding what works for me. The ZC/VLCers think I eat too much plant foods and carbs and the tropical fruit utopians think I eat too little. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, so I don't bother trying to please others and was never big on seeking others' approval anyway. I'm more of a maverick free thinker.
Thanks for the post, you rarely fail to give me a chuckle or at least a smile, which I appreciate.
...But I would still pick a grainfed RUMINANT steak, probably lean, and supplement with grassfed butter or coconut oil if I did not have access to grassfed meat.
If I eat too much meat I get more constipated, whereas raw eggs, avocado, raw fermented honey, bone marrow, lard and berries seem to be sufficiently soft, easy to digest and fatty to promote good bowels..... plus maybe antifungal and probiotic effects? |
I did get some lip chapping last night after eating pineapple earlier in the day, but I didn't get the stomach upset I normally do, so maybe my stomach health is improving or it could be just a coincidence.
Phil =D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Well if it isn't the brotha' from anotha' mutha'. Welcome Tsurugi!
For the dry skin, have you tried the whole "no soap" thing? I'm curious if anyone else had tried it, lol.Em, no. I have a much easier and more pleasant solution: I won't eat too much pineapple or other fruits.
Do you only eat fermented honey, not just raw honey?Yes, I find that raw fermented honey treats me better than ordinary raw honey, for whatever reason. It's really bizarre that fruits and centrifuged "raw" honey dry out my skin, whereas the Really Raw brand of non-centrifuged raw fermented honey helps clear up my dry skin and scalp, though it can cause a very mild lip chapping if I eat too much. This violates nearly every dietary dogma out there. I love that about it. LOL
As for your video, I'll just pass it up, lol. Controversy calls... :DLOL, yeah, it's too bad the subject is a controversial one. It would be funny with any subject, wish I knew of a less controversial example.
"Cream, butter, eggs, and liver are good sources of vitamin A. When people supplement thyroid and eat liver once or twice a week, their acne and dandruff (and many other problems) usually clear up very quickly. It was acne and dandruff that led me into studying the steroids and thyroid, and in the process I found that they were related to constipation and food sensitivity." --Ray Peat
This opened me up for a HUGE reinterpretation of what was going on in my own body. I thought about all the vexing reactions I had to many of the foods Peat recommends for increasing metabolism. Dandruff and chapped lips, both symptoms of vitamin A deficiency (and a lot of other things), were consistently the result of consuming a large amount of orange juice, honey, and dairy.
Adding vitamin A rich foods (raw yolks, raw liver) remedied these problems literally overnight. Once again, another example of how studying Peat's work has improved my well being, even if he or I are way off.
http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/6/27/becoming-the-warmest-man-alive.html
I made some errors today.
Yesterday I had some Thai tamarind, imported, in a box, Made me fart so much and made my tummy grumble.
Hope you didn't mind my tamarind turds photo. ;DNope :D
Hi Phil, I bet one of the black berries you found last year was some type of wild cherry, or chokecherry. Was it growing on a tree, shrub, vine or herbaceous plant?IIRC, the nasty type was growing in great quantity on trees and the bland one was on bushes.
The thing about foraging wild foods that makes me think we were meant to be largely carnivores is that most any wild food eaten in quantity can have negative effects.I guess it would mainly depend on the quality of the fruits in ancestral northeastern African, Europe and West-Central Asia.
This is even true of wild raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, and certainly wild grapes. These fruits are potent and can be strong diuretics (cause you to urinate excessively) and laxatives (you know what this means already, I hope). They can also have other qualities, depending on species and growing location. Wild grapes are particularly potent, and I treat them solely as a medicinal, much like greenbriar berries.I know what you mean. I tried to see how many of the wild grapes I could eat, and it's not many. They're turning me into a sour puss. ;) Do you know how Native Americans ate them? Did they dry them and mix with meat or something to make them more palatable?
I haven't seen any plum trees. Are they indigenous to England or did they spread from planted trees?No idea, they just grew wild by the river-bank.
...banned-member William's bogus notion that people eating nutrient-rich ancestral-type diets cannot get pathogenic infections.
A pathogen (Greek: pathos, "suffering, passion" and gens (-gen) "producer of") or infectious agent - in colloquial terms, a germ — is a microbe or microorganism such as a virus, bacterium, prion, or fungus that causes disease in its animal or plant host.[1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogen#cite_note-0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogen#cite_note-0)See also:
In the Indian subcontinent, it is found in the Himalayan North Eastern states of India. In the Kullu valley in Himachal Pradesh, it is known locally as "lingri" and is famously used to make a pickle "lingri ka achaar". In the Kangra Valley of Himachal it is called 'Lungdu' in the local Kangri Pahari language. In Darjeeling and Sikkim regions, it is called ningro and is well loved as a vegetable side dish, often mixed with local cheese. It is also pickled. In Assam, it is known as 'dhekia xaak'; there it is a popular side dish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddlehead_fern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddlehead_fern)
I hope you are feeling slowly better after your loss. Truly, every moment we have is a gift.Yeah, I find I recover faster emotionally than I used to since I went Paleo, and I never considered myself excessively soft or sentimental as it was. I seem to be emotionally resilient without being excessively cold (or so I hope). I've been able to cheer up my friend who was hit very hard by this sudden death amongst our close friends, for which she has been very thankful. Raw Paleo seems to be robustifying in many ways.
That's great news about your foot! Do you have any links to good information on how to move correctly that I can share with my husband? He has injured his foot mostly through repetitive incorrect contact with the ground I think.Cushy shoes with big heels promote incorrect form and weaken the arches and other muscles. Barefoot is best in the long run and it is a growing craze, so there's tons of info on it now. Mark Sisson http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-prepare-for-barefooting/#axzz1t01bXqcL, (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-prepare-for-barefooting/#axzz1t01bXqcL,) Barefoot Ted http://www.barefootted.com/index.php?q=/, (http://www.barefootted.com/index.php?q=/,) Chris McDougall http://www.chrismcdougall.com/barefoot.html (http://www.chrismcdougall.com/barefoot.html) and others provide a lot of info, including how to transition safely.
Yeah, I find I recover faster emotionally than I used to since I went Paleo, and I never considered myself excessively soft or sentimental as it was. I seem to be emotionally resilient without being excessively cold (or so I hope). I've been able to cheer up my friend who was hit very hard by this sudden death amongst our close friends, for which she has been very thankful. Raw Paleo seems to be robustifying in many ways.
I'd say having more minerals in the bloodstream, especially magnesium and calcium, makes a big difference in the degree of calm, as well.
I'd say having more minerals in the bloodstream, especially magnesium and calcium, makes a big difference in the degree of calm, as well.Indeed, when I was working in a supplement/herb/healthfood store I noticed that my customers tended to get more benefit from the mineral supplements than the vitamins or herbs, yet not a lot tried the minerals, perhaps in part because they don't get as much advertising.
"previous research in the same journal showed that acids in citrus fruit juices (particularly lemon juice) can also erode the enamel on teeth"However, they were much more of a problem in the past for me than they are now. Some time benefiting from a solid base of a raw Paleo diet appears to robustify the body to better handle stressors like fruit acids.
NPR - Online: Energy Drinks Can Take Teeth On An Irreversible Acid Trip
05/03/2012
http://www.wbur.org/npr/151868879/energy-drinks-can-take-teeth-on-an-irreversible-acid-trip (http://www.wbur.org/npr/151868879/energy-drinks-can-take-teeth-on-an-irreversible-acid-trip)
http://www.bulletproofexec.com/steve-jobs-dr-dean-ornish-and-vegetarian-cancer/
Dave Asprey
While The Bulletproof Diet is not an anti cancer diet, if you eat it raw, it will serve that purpose. Raw meat or egg is better for you than raw vegetables.
Durgareiki
Dave, raw meats and eggs will kill you! What are you SAYING? You really need to educate yourself!
BuddhaBandit
Raw chicken or pork will give you salmonella or trichinosis respectively, both of which can be fatal. I'm assuming you're making a broad brush statement much as you do repeatedly in your article, without citing sources, providing footnotes, or backing up your claims with links, etc. Maybe you meant to say fish is better eaten raw. Nonetheless, you said something general enough to be stupidly and obviously dangerous. And by the way, get your facts right about soy. It's not soy that's bad, it's soy isolates. Consult the google machine. You might learn something Mr. Genius.
Dave Asprey
Lol – trichinosis in commercial pork that’s inspected? Hardly. Salmonella dies when you dip it in iodine, and chickens raised properly in pastures have a much lower risk of it.
I know. “The google machine” told me. It must be true.
Edamame has been linked with estrogen problems in kids and males. ALL soy protein is bad, whether or not it’s isolated or still in those nasty tasting little toxic beans.
Hey Phil. Have you ever been to the tropics and eaten coconuts right off the tree? In the Barbados and Florida I did GREAT with coconuts but by the time they get here to Texas and whatever they do to them in the process makes them into a whole different experience for me. I miss the good ones!Nope. Sounds nice.
i tried Artisana butter and did not like it. stick with the real thing. young coconut is so much better. but they are hit or miss. a lot of times i gotten spoiled ones and at $1.5 each it adds up quickly.I do indeed seem to tolerate green coconut better than coconut products like Artisana butter, but for some reason I seem to tolerate mature coconut better still, within limits, and raw fermented coconut water (Kevita http://kevita.com/kevita%E2%84%A2-good-drink-raw-food-diet (http://kevita.com/kevita%E2%84%A2-good-drink-raw-food-diet)--there's no guarantee that it isn't heated at all, but if it's considered OK for raw foodists, then one would think that it's not heated above the level that most raw foodists consider raw), which is essentially extra-mature coconut water, best of all the coconut products. I'm thinking that I might be able to handle small amounts of a coconut butter or cream that's home-made from mature coconuts OK, though the concentrating of coconut oil does appear to be an issue for me above a certain point.
I tried the Kevita and spit it out.
-v
To each their own, but I thought the stuff was vile.
Hi Phil, I was just checking out your Journal. I agree with you regarding Artisana "raw" coconut butter. I tried that a way's back and didn't like it at all. It had a dryness and grittiness to it I recall.Yes, I found that too. I found that mixing it with water and honey improves it a bit, but it's still not great. Even small amounts of it also make me nauseous without the honey.
Try the centrifuge extracted EV coconut oil. I found one from Wilderness Family Naturals (www.wildernessfamily.com (http://www.wildernessfamily.com)). It's actually a "raw" product, and is processed at low temperatures.Cool! thanks, what temp?
I agree with you on the Raw coconut water also. I find that it just tastes better. My body seems to like it over the pasteurized versions out there much better.Yeah, the difference is pretty amazing. Coconut water is one of the foods that demonstrate dramatically the difference between truly raw and near-raw.
PS: I guess were all ginny pigs to a degree on this site. It's kind of hit or miss for lots of us. I look forward to what the next topic your going to tackle. I still have a lot of back reading to do, I'll try to catch up!Neato, it's nice to find a kindred curious spirit.
I tried the Kevita and spit it out.Was it the stevia flavor? It's funny, after you mentioned it, I find I'm noticing it more! Damn! I do find that to be the downside to it, but I was so thrilled that I finally found a coconut product I could digest well, and the stevia was sufficiently mild (it's the last ingredient) that I tolerated it. Sometimes I do add honey or other stuff to it when I don't want to taste the stevia. Interesting to find someone else who like me doesn't like stevia. People seem to rave about it on the Internet and I've never come across anyone else who doesn't like it. Too sweet and artificial-tasting for me (yes, I know stevia fans, it's not artificial, it just tastes like artificial stuff to me). Give me raw fermented honey over stevia any day.
-v
To each their own, but I thought the stuff was vile.
LOL.... I've tried that before too. They sell it @ Whole Foods and Mother's Market out here. Not sure if Sprouts carries it? But I agree, I didn't like it either. It didn't do much for me @ all, to be quite honest with you! I think those drinks are a total ripoff.Yeah, they are a ripoff, LOL, but I'm hoping they may improve my ability to digest coconut foods, which I find improve my BMs more than anything, but eating just a tad too much sends me quickly over the edge into nausea, diarrhea and even vomiting, so it's worth a try--time will tell. So far I haven't noticed anything, so I may give up soon. I guess I should have included more warnings for folks. Oh well, I guess now I've messed up like the folks who told me that Artisana stuff was great and I got sick as a result, LOL. Please forgive me.
Was it the stevia flavor? It's funny, after you mentioned it, I find I'm noticing it more! Damn! I do find that to be the downside to it, but I was so thrilled that I finally found a coconut product I could digest well, and the stevia was sufficiently mild (it's the last ingredient) that I tolerated it. Sometimes I do add honey or other stuff to it when I don't want to taste the stevia. Interesting to find someone else who like me doesn't like stevia. People seem to rave about it on the Internet and I've never come across anyone else who doesn't like it. Too sweet and artificial-tasting for me (yes, I know stevia fans, it's not artificial, it just tastes like artificial stuff to me). Give me raw fermented honey over stevia any day.
I have tried different variation/brands of EV coconut oil. There all different on how there are made/produced. I never liked the fermented ones (nutiva)Fermented coconut oil? Where can I buy it? I tend to find I digest raw fermented foods better than unfermented.
Cool! thanks, what temp?
Hey Phil - I was thinking of trying to ferment some fresh raw coconut water with a tiny bit of the kevita added as a starter. Have you tried this yet?I did and it was an utter failure. I learned that coconut water is difficult to ferment--one has to add sugar to have better chance of success, apparently. I tried adding the most highly-recommended maple syrup, with horrible results, and then decided that given this and my poor history with sugary fluids, it was best not to pursue this path further.
I just had an excellent dental checkup, even though I went a week longer between visits than my normal 3 month cleaning (I go every 3 months because dental plaque accumulates rapidly on my teeth and I develop increasing gum inflammation). For the first time since it was noticed years ago, my cavity is showing signs of some healing (the fact that it had gone years without seriously deteriorating was amazing enough, but this is fabulous). There's still a hole, but the probe is no longer sticking when poked into it, which pleased the hygienist and perhaps means that the soft enamel has re-hardened somewhat, maybe even refilled-in a little? She also said that my gums are less inflamed and the cleaning was easier, quicker and less painful than before (though cleanings since I went LC cooked Paleo haven't been that bad, generally). It's particularly pleasing because I was a bit concerned when my last dental visit was worse than usual and the hygienist's probe seemed to stick more in my cavity than usual and she recommended getting a filling (which was first recommended to me around 4 years or so ago).
I had been eating more carby foods than I had in a long time at the time of my last dental visit, including some of the least-bad carby foods available at the cafeteria at work. I've tried to do a better job of bringing my own foods to work so I won't end up hungry and tempted by cafeteria foods and I cut back again somewhat on my carb intake (though I still eat the ones that I've found cause me the least problems) and increased my intake of soft animal foods.
The main reason I had increased my carby-food intake was due to the problem of constipation when eating too many animal foods, so I've tried to focus on eating soft, easily-digestible animal foods and including more animal fats, organs, bones, cartilage and gelatin in my diet. This has meant doing more heating/cooking than in the past, which I know is a cardinal sin here, but the benefits have outweighed the negatives by far. From the start my goal has been to maximize my health, wellbeing and happiness, not to commit to some dogma about 100% rawness.
One thing I noticed was to pay attention to certain signs. If there was lots of sticky white crud on my gumline in the morning and my mouth tasted and felt gross, then I found through experience that I wasn't eating right for my dental health, whereas if there was little crud, my mouth felt fresh in the morning and my teeth were smooth and polished, then I was on the right track.
Warning to sensitive raw Paleo purists, the following report may be upsetting: >: :o
It's hard to tell with accurate detail, but adding or increasing these foods seems to have provided more benefits to my dental health than just raw Paleo or raw Paleo plus RF CLO, vitamin D gels, minerals and Oxysulfur:
sardine soup (heated in a crockpot on the warm setting)
marrow bone broth (heated in a crockpot on the warm setting)
liver cooked in bacon and garlic (I found it hard to get myself to eat enough raw, whereas cooked bacon and garlic give it a flavor that entices me to eat more)
This doesn't mean I think that humans are coctivores. Rather, the bone, joint, skin, and organ elements that these foods provide are less commonly available in raw foods and less enticing to my palate amongst the raw foods, so these are substitutes, and I have more dental and other damage to reverse than Paleolithic peoples normally would have had.
Plus I increased some of my raw Paleo foods:
raw fertilized eggs
raw suet (my intake had dropped and I ramped it back up after my dental health declined some)
The latter two foods seem to be my most beneficial so far.
I often notice less "dental crud", as you call it, the morning after eating some cooked food.Yes, quite different. I notice plenty of dental crud from cooked foods other than those I mentioned and I've already experienced benefits since eating more of the foods I mentioned--a healing cavity, reduced gum inflammation, teeth that feel polished--and some that I didn't mention already, like less lower extremity edema, improved sleep, and feeling improved overall.
I fear the cooked food is just delaying the detox process. I don't think it provides any health benefits.
Are your experiences different?
Yes, quite different. I notice plenty of dental crud from cooked foods other than those I mentioned and I've already experienced benefits since eating more of the foods I mentioned--a healing cavity, reduced gum inflammation, teeth that feel polished--and some that I didn't mention already, like less lower extremity edema, improved sleep, and feeling improved overall.
I will say that a universal issue with cooked food is a lack of aerobic stamina. Eating a particular food raw instead of cooked will nearly always be better for aerobic stamina.I believe it, that's why I only use cooking where raw just doesn't prove practical or sufficient for me for whatever reason, such as the fact that I don't eat much of whole animal carcasses the way our ancestors likely would have. These cooked foods are stand-ins for me for certain raw ancestral foods that some people like myself otherwise wouldn't eat a lot of nowadays if we tried to eat 100% raw. Plus, I have particular dental issues that are rather high priority for me that these foods seem to be helping with. I'll take improved health over purity any day. KD, Lex, Dorothy and others seem to have a similar view on this (please correct me if I'm wrong).
As for the specific foods you're trying, I'd watch carefully for this issue. My guess is that, if you find it affecting your aerobic stamina, you may be causing some more hidden, gradual health issues.Thanks, haven't noticed that, luckily. As Lex says, if I notice any negative effects, I'll make a change. Coincidentally, Lex recently reported adding bouillon cubes and bouillon concentrate in heated broths and salt to his diet. I think I've mentioned it before, but I also occasionally add some unheated natural salt to some foods. It made some sense given that a chiropractor told me that I had an abnormally low sodium level based on a test he did and given that I don't eat much salt-containing blood like our ancestors likely did, plus reports by several sources that too-low salt levels can be harmful in the long run, and it adds a touch of taste variety that's pleasant, though not a necessity for me.
I think I've mentioned it before, but I also occasionally add some unheated natural salt to some foods. It made some sense given that a chiropractor told me that I had an abnormally low sodium level based on a test he did and given that I don't eat much salt-containing blood like our ancestors likely did, plus reports by several sources that too-low salt levels can be harmful in the long run, and it adds a touch of taste variety that's pleasant, though not a necessity for me.
Yesterday and today I tried testing my blood oxygen saturation level with a pulse oximeter for the first time in quite a while and it's up another notch to consistently 99%, vs. in the past when it was usually 98% (though occasionally 99%). Here's to hoping that I can hit Dorothy's 100% level in the future.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. How often did she smoke? It's also curious that my blood oxygen level improved even though I've been consuming some coffee and butter, which contain the dreaded AGEs. It has been hypothesized that low levels of all sorts of deadly poisons can actually improve the health, depending on the individual, even small amounts of smoking have been connected to improved health, though I don't recall if it was in humans or lab rats.
PaleoPhil, what do you mean by teeth cleaning? I don't remember ever doing any teeth cleaning, when I go to the dentist he checks if any fillings are necessary or not and that's about it.Doesn't the hygienist clean your teeth before the dentist checks them? They use various implements, so it depends on whatever that particular office uses. At the one I'm currently going to, the hygienist uses a high-pressure water-pik-type device, then some plaque scraping/scaling and probing with metal devices, then flossing, then probing for cavities, and then the dentist follows up with probing and looking for issues, usually confirming what the hygienist reports.
Are you gaining any weight?Not recently. My budget is real tight since I bought a condo, so that hasn't been a focus lately.
Not recently. My budget is real tight since I bought a condo, so that hasn't been a focus lately.
“Life’s Mysteries" by Kun-Gay Yap in Reality Beyond Belief: Understanding Why You Believe What You Believe:I find that recognizing the infinite complexity of the universe, being able to accept the fact of my general ignorance, and questioning assumptions (including my own) helps to avoid this error.
"There is so much we could or should know but each of us has only the slightest sliver of what there is to know. This individual ignorance ensures that most of existence is a mystery for each of us, creating much awe and wonder even though it is everyday knowledge for others. The compulsion to solve such ‘mysteries’ ensures the invention of belief even though there exists quite ordinary explanations. Such ‘mysteries’ excite the mind, and the ‘solutions’ which we so ably discover or invent, please the brain.* Many fanciful and thrilling explanations are invented and held as glorious truths even though the facts are plain and mundane."
[* Footnote: "The most preposterous inventions tend to attract the most devout belief. Later a parallel is drawn between such unlikely beliefs and a high-risk gamble which may have a huge payout. Some of them may even be Black Swan events, (a theory of unexpected yet world-changing events developed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb in his book The Black Swan.) Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory.)”]
"{O}ne must attend in medical practice not primarily to plausible theories but to experience combined with reason." - Hippocrates, Precepts, Ch. 1, as translated by W. H. S. Jones (1923).This quote matches my general experience. While I enjoy learning about scientific research and theories and know they have their place, I have actually benefited much more from keeping an open and questioning mind, not blindly accepting views that are commonplace among scientists as dogma, from observations and self-reports of people's actual experience, especially time-tested heuristics that fit into the evolutionary model, and testing the most plausible ones and observing my own experience, in a sort of mad-scientist experimental-science way.
I think someone asked me a question about Brazil nut selenium content that I accidentally deleted prematurely. A single Brazil nut contains more than the recommended Daily Value of selenium, though I currently average more than one a day. They're also high in phytic acid and omega 6, so buyer beware. There's also plenty of info on Brazil nuts on the Internet that one can Google.
I found that if I overdo it on Brazil nuts I develop small patches of itchy or dry skin, which is a good incentive for me to not overdo it.
I added P5P (a highly bioavailable version of vitamin B6) to my regimen and starting on Monday, June 17, 2013 I read up on the recommended dose for people with "pyroluria" and started taking 150 - 200 mg per day, spread out in 50 mg tablet doses, with noticeable benefits within 24 hours. Since then I've noticed that I have less muscle tension at the end of the day, even after a whole day of sitting at a PC in a chair at work and even if I eat significant carbs, somewhat increased appetite, cleaner/smoother teeth, better mental clarity and performance, and mild to moderate euphoria at times (especially the first couple of days about an hour or so after taking the P5P). I even tested drinking alcohol (mead) with it and found that I had less negative symptoms the next morning (speculating--possibly due to fewer pyrroles in the urine accumulated overnight in my bladder?)--almost no symptoms. Amazing results so far.
I've also noticed that various therapies, such as going gluten-free, then going Paleo, then going LC Paleo, then raw LC Paleo, have excellent short-term effects for me, including often some euphoria in the early days, but then some of the old symptoms gradually start to creep back--so subtly it's almost imperceptible until it gets bad enough to notice.Same here, it's a lot of placebo. I hope the pyroluria therapy is not just placebo for you though.
. For example, I eat raw fermented honey and Kerrygold butter, which is apparently OK with Danny but not with most Paleo people.
There's an interesting phenomenon in Paleo circles where something negative is discovered about a food, it becomes declared "not Paleo" and possibly even demonized, and then later on some people start reporting positive stuff about the food and saying that people are going overboard, and it gradually becomes somewhat rehabilitated. On the flip side, other foods that were once generally regarded as "Paleo" and healthy have come into question. Throughout it all, it seems that honey has pretty consistently been regarded as at best a treat, despite the fact that every HG people that eats it regards it as a food.
Pyroluria, An Inborn Mistake
This disorder is connected to an abnormal production of a group of body chemicals called pyrroles. Pyrroles are a worthless byproduct of hemoglobin synthesis. Most people have very little if any of these pyrroles circulating in their bodies. We know that through measuring levels of pyrroles excreted via the urine. Some of us, however, are not so fortunate. Pyrroles are abnormally high in about:
• 30% of schizophrenics
• 40% of persons with psychiatric problems
• 11% of normals
• 25% of disturbed children
• 40% of alcoholics
- Joan Mathews Larson, Ph.D, http://www.joanmathewslarson.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/D_Hide_In_Closet.htm (http://www.joanmathewslarson.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/D_Hide_In_Closet.htm)
17:51 "[W]e need DHA, which is an omega 3 fat, that docosahexaenoic acid, so [we] can have a big brain. It's also very important in the midface development, so you have a nice, broad dental arch, straight teeth. You get this in wild fish, wild shellfish, and to a lesser degree in grassfed meat; raw, when you cook it, you do lose it. So grassfed meat does of course have more omega 3 fatty acids, but you want to have it raw. The more you cook it, the more you lose."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?
Terry Wahls, MD — Minding My Mitochondria
v=wg216KCuXSM)
34:19 "[T]he advantage to having your meat raw, you're going to have more of the vitamins, the minerals intact, and the meat will begin to autodigest in your stomach. You'll need fewer enzymes from your pancreas to digest that food. The hazard of eating your meat raw is the public health hazard of parasites and bacterial infections. Because of our conventional farming, that now becomes a much higher risk proposition. If you can buy your meat from farmers that you know and you know the health of the animal, you're decreasing the risk somewhat. If you have the meat in a deep freeze for at least 14 days, you're going to decrease the risk of parasites, but there are certainly public health concerns. Eating enzymes with your food is another way of dealing with those issues. I buy my meat directly from the farmer. I would be nervous about getting meat commercially and eating it raw."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM)
TheCalmCanary 1 month agoMany of the disorders that Dr. Wahls mentioned in her talk are reportedly benefited by vitamin B6 and often pyroluria therapy.
For B6, eat raw animal foods - raw milk, raw oysters, sashimi or ceviche, raw meat (esp. organ meats), raw pasture-raised egg yolks, etc. For more info watch "Cure Tooth Decy" with Nagel, Fallon
No B6, no dreams. No dreams, no tingling. No tingling, no nirvana.
(I was told by my neurology [sic])
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM)
Thanks Cherimoya.
I had a good dental cleaning visit today. The hygienist's poker didn't stick in the cavity like in the past and she didn't even mention it, whereas in the past she was concerned that it might need filling. When I asked about it, she indicated that she doesn't even consider it a cavity anymore, just a dip (I can't remember the exact word she used) in the tooth enamel.
At what stage of ripeness do you eat your plantains?
I wait until they are mushy and black all over.
At what stage of ripeness do you eat your plantains?When I first tried raw plantains I followed the advice or raw vegans who eat them by letting them ripen to the extent that Cherimoya does (to the point that the whole skin is black and the flesh mushy). Unfortunately, I found that the more I ripened them, the more negative effects I get. Then I learned about resistant starch (if interested, please see the thorough blog series on it at http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch/page/4 (http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch/page/4) that Richard Nikoley and "Tatertot" Tim collaborated on--please no questions unless you've first read that entire series, as they answer most potential questions in it), found that I benefit from RS (such as improved fasting, post-prandial and random blood glucose and some further small improvement in my sleep quality and ability to fall asleep quickly, which already seemed pretty good), and now I eat plantains as green as possible and avoid negative symptoms (many of the same negative symptoms I've reported in the past in my journal). It was rather surprising to me, because it goes against what people had recommended and I thought there would be more problems when they're highest in starch, rather than glucose (ripening converts the starch into glucose). To get rid of the astringency I dry them first.
Sorry to hear that. I'm surprised how well I seem to handle unripe plantains and potato starch, given my own decades long history of problems in my entire GI system.
Well, it sounds like you probably need them to be unripe. How is the P5P going? Are you part of any online forums for people on P5P? I'm curious to see what other supplements they find helpful.
PSP ? A Google search tells me :Huh? That's not what comes up with my google search:
- Polícia de Segurança Pública
- PlayStation Portable
- Professional Paintball League
- Progressive Supranuclear Palsy
???
Back to plantains, I used to like them black-overripe but now I like them best when yellow-ripe with a few black spots. I can’t eat them green-unripe.I've tried them at various ripeness and I find I prefer them just a little ripe, mostly green, and dried for more than a day or two. That way they have a mild sweetness that I find I like. I was surprised because I had read in the past that they aren't edible unless cooked, then I read that they are only edible raw if super-ripe.
Should we split this discussion about plantains from your journal ?Questions on them are OK. If it turns into a debate, there is a plantains opinions thread at http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/plantains-vs-bananas/msg61880/#msg61880. (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/plantains-vs-bananas/msg61880/#msg61880.)
How is the P5P going?Good, though because the body excretes what it doesn't need and doesn't store it, I need to take it any day that I want to benefit from it.
Are you part of any online forums for people on P5P? I'm curious to see what other supplements they find helpful.No. Nora Gedgaudas page on pyroluria is a good starting point: http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398 (http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398)
I wonder how much caffeine your getting with your method. Ive searched and searched for a caffeine tester although have yet to find one.I don't know. Why do you want to know what the caffeine content is?
I actually own a cold brew coffee company that delivers cold brew locally. We get our beans from Guatemala and they are organic. Thats why we use a big one.Interesting. What is the cold brew process you use?
Do you heat up the water after you have been soaking them?Not unless I want to melt some butter into it to make butter coffee. It's not RPD-approved, of course.
Also do you use the ordinary amount of two tablespoons per 8 oz cup?I use whole green coffee beans. About a couple handfuls.
What benefit are your trying to achieve from the coffee? Just increased energy? Or bowel movements?Both, and excellent mental clarity and focus.
What benefit do you believe you get from the RS?My fasting and postprandial blood glucose measures have improved since taking it and I fall asleep a bit more easily (which generally wasn't a problem to begin with anyway). The tapioca flour and maybe the potato starch also seem to lessen muscle tension if it gets triggered by somewhat inflammatory foods like coffee. Iodine also seems to help with that. It seems like my dreams are a bit more pleasant when I consume RS, though it's difficult to tell because I also take P5P that helps with that. Lots of people report GI benefits from RS, so I am hoping that I'm getting some improvement in that as well. My bowels do seem improved a bit, though that's probably mostly or all due to taking Mg more often.
Ah Phil! I meant to get back to you earlier on this but I tried some jicama! I ate about half the root and even though I was/am zero-carb, I noticed no ill effects or decrease in ketosis. It had a light almost green bean flavor to it. Very fresh and enjoyable. It seemed to digest well even though it was the first starch I had eaten in months and I doubt there was any bacteria to help digest it. I may have to add some in over the winter as it seems "practical" that tubers would be a winter food.I think jicama contains mostly inulin fiber, rather than starch. Inulin, like RS, is supposed to be good for the large intestine. My diet includes both.
I never did well with starches in the past, potatoes and plantains and bananas (yes the fake cultivated ones) didn't really ever digest well, giving me gas and tiredness. Maybe it was the small amount of jicama I had but it seemed okay. What sort of benefits have you noticed eating RS foods long term?
RS dosing and timing:
tatertot // Oct 21, 2013 at 16:36 http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539784 (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539784)
I personally feel that if you are taking potato starch as a supplement, it may be best to take it all at once. RS gets fermented very fast once it hits the large intestine, so taking a small dose several times a day means it is all fermented in the first (proximal, ascending) part of the large intestine. Taking a bigger bolus dose of 20-40g (2-4TBS) all at once means it will overwhelm the proximal end and force fermentation in the transverse and descending parts (distal end) of the colon.
Also, there is a study link to jn.nutrition.org (rats anyway) that shows when taking an RS supplement alongside another fermenting fiber, psyllium in this case, it shifts the fermentation sites even further.
Taking small doses throughout the day probably isn’t a waste of time, but if you are looking for a reason to take it all at once, this is probably it. Studies show that almost no human can ferment over 50g at one time, but 10g is fermented very fast. So, somewhere between 20-40g is probably the right amount to take to flood your intestine with RS and make it do it’s job and get strong in return.
---
Q: Can any of you guys who’s been getting resistant starch for a long time say when they noticed a reduction in gas?
Tatertot Tim: I think for me it was about 3-4 weeks. I started out with 4TBS/day, I usually recommend people start out with 1TBS/day and up it after a week. The studies indicate it should take 3-4 weeks for all the major changes in gut microbe communities to happen. If you are missing key microbes, it may never happen. If you find discomfort at higher amounts, back off to 1TBS/day and take it with yogurt, kefir, or alongside sauerkraut or a probiotic supplement of some sort. http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539776 (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539776)
B6 supplementation "should be balanced by vitamin B12 and biotin" http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/supplements, (http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/supplements,) which are often included in B complex supplements (though I've read that one should look for ones that contain folate instead of folic acid and Dr. Ron recently changed his Doc's Best multi-vit/mineral to include folate instead of folic acid).
Interesting, thanks, DaBoss, I'll check it out. I hadn't seen methyl folate linked to pyroluria before, but I was curious about it, because of the "methyl" name in some recommended pyroluria supplements and some pyroluria patients talking about how they also have under- or over- methylation. I don't seem to quite fit either of the under- or over- methylation symptom lists, from what I've seen, but I have been curious about it.
Right on about the folic acid; I've seen some supplement sellers replace the folic acid in their supplements with folate after learning how bad the synthetic folic acid is.