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Members' Journals => Journals => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on July 26, 2009, 11:36:34 pm

Title: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 26, 2009, 11:36:34 pm
Never thought I would do one of these, but this forum has been such a wealth of info for me, and I've gotten such good feedback on my posts, that I think it might be both a way for me to repay this forum and learn more. Plus, I think I finally am following an approximately optimal diet for me that is producing amazing benefits that are so exciting I feel the urge to blurt them out to someone (friends and relatives get tired of hearing about my success stories after a while ;-), especially if they aren't following the diet and therefore aren't experience the same benefits). Thanks especially to Lex Rooker, who's journal and other posts are a goldmine of information.

Ironically, sharing my success in this way might encourage others to do the same and thus drive up the costs of the foods I eat. However, I doubt I'll actually influence many people, so it's a tiny risk. :)
Title: Abbreviations; Health Stats
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 26, 2009, 11:41:15 pm
Some abbreviations I'll be using:
HG: Hunter Gatherer
RP: Resting pulse
TSC (mg/dl): Total Serum Cholesterol (the Inuit in 1978 had an outlier value of 208, far above the avg for HGs, but indicative that such high numbers do not necessarily suggest heart disease)
HDL (mg/dl)
Tri (mg/dl): Triglyceride
LDL (mg/dl)
LCLDL (mg/dl): LDL per an Iranian formula more accurate for Low Carb dieters
CRP: Serum C-Reactive Protein
Glucose-f (fasting) mg/dl
Glucose-r (random) mg/dl

The standard Friedewald LDL equation tends to overestimate the LDL of low carbers, so Iranian scientists developed an alternative LDL equation for low carb dieters: LDL = TC/1.19 + TG/1.9 - HDL/1.1 - 38 (there is a calculator that you can plug your data into here: http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~geoff36/LDL_mg.htm). I wouldn't worry too much about high LDL numbers anyway, because triglycerides, HDL and non-HDL cholesterol, and CRP have all been found to be better predictors of heart disease than LDL.

What health stats should I shoot for?
The following are adult male data, with "normal" ranges according to my lab results reports followed by ranges found across hunter-gatherer populations per the ethnographic encyclopedia and other sources, with the following exceptions: HG triglyceride range is based on Inuit measurements only, the resting pulse number is for trained athletes, and the glucose #'s are those recommended by Dr. Richard K. Bernstein (rumor has it that Dr. Bernstein said that healthy low carb dieters may be able to maintain their health at somewhat higher levels of blood glucose--any documented confirmation of this would be greatly appreciated). Note how much better the HG numbers are than the so-called "normal" lab ranges. What is "normal" in the modern world is not necessarily "natural" or "optimal." If my diet is optimized, my numbers should move toward the HG numbers, which they indeed have been doing.

................Lab....vs...HG
Systolic...110-130...100-117
Diastolic...70-80...64-72
RP...........60-80...40-60   
TSC.........140-200...~90-150
Tri..........35-160...35-60
HDL.........>40...~100+
LDL.........<130...30-70
LCLDL.......62-178...2-29   
Non-HDL....100-160...30-50   
TSC/HDL....<5.1...1.5
CRP..........<0.5-1.0...??   
Glucose-f...74-106...70-83
Glucose-r...<200...70-100
BMI..........20-25...19-24
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:17:12 am
OK, here begins my story. Sorry about the long length--you can skim through it by reading the bolded text and a few of the stats in each post.

I had been extremely thin my in my youth and teased and criticized about it ("Doesn't your mother feed you?" "You look like a concentration camp survivor/Ethiopian/etc.," ...), but at age 30 I started to put on some weight for the first time. This thrilled me, but my lifelong GI issues started to gradually worsen (and would eventually be diagnosed as IBS-C with D, GERD, gastritis and gluten-sensitive enteropathy), none of the prescription drugs could control my chronic, painful, cystic acne (not even Accutane), and I seemed to develop another new chronic health problem every year or so. Like many modern people, as I reached early middle-age I felt like my body was falling apart. I attributed much of it to unavoidable, "normal" aging.

Here is what my health stats were before I started getting serious about my health, in 1997 - 1998, not long after my general practitioner started expressing concern about my numbers (I had earlier worse numbers than these, but they were skewed by a Px drug I was taking at the time):

1997-1998 Standard American Diet (falling apart)
Systolic 137
Diastolic 74
RP 60
TSC 194
Tri 269
HDL 32
LDL 162
LCLDL 238
Non-HDL 162
TSC/HDL 6.1
CRP ??
Weight 172
BMI 24.3
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:18:15 am
I reached my highest weight measurement in 2002 (SAD; not an enormous weight, but very flabby):
Weight 179
BMI 25.3

My BMI was only barely above the clinical "normal" range of the labs, but it looked ridiculously flabby on me, because I was born fine-boned without much muscle and thin limbs, so the weight was mostly flab and in the wrong places, with my belly bulging out over my belt, a fat front neck that made people think I had mumps, love handles, etc. My fat would jiggle when I jogged. Exercise had little impact on my weight or health stats. Up till now I had attributed my weight gain to "normal" slowing metabolism, but I realized I was also eating unhealthy and too much. I had numerous health issues and felt miserable.

People gave me the standard advice for my health issues and flab of "exercise more," "eat less," take this or that supplement or fiber bar. I tried everything, but none of it seemed to help them, much less me.

On the bright side, I had a new GP who spent more time answering my questions and seemed more genuinely concerned about my well being. My doctors up to this point had been pretty poor.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:32:47 am
In 2003 my GP was concerned about my health stats, which continued to be bad, and gently suggested I may need to soon consider taking drugs to treat my cholesterol and triglycerides. I wanted to give diet and exercise another chance before giving into the drugs. He agreed and referred me to a nutritionist. In the meantime I cut down my portion sizes, soda pop and snack foods and thus reduced my weight some before I saw her. She prescribed a near-vegetarian diet with no red meat, low fat, very high carb, lots of whole grains (which I was aready eating), fruits, veggies, soy burgers instead of hamburgers (which I wasn't eating much of anyway), soy powder as a supplement, soy milk and some low-fat cow's milk. The diet stunk, which helped me to lose more weight and my stats did improve some, but they were still bad and I had worsening problems with my GI tract and nearly every other part of my body:

March 2003 Near-Veggie, lower calorie (somewhat better stats but feeling worse)
TSC 206
Tri 210
HDL 37
LDL 127
LCLDL 212
Non-HDL 169
TSC/HDL 5.6
CRP 1.2
Weight 165.0
BMI 23.3

At one point my acid reflux got so bad that I vomited in my sleep, but luckily woke up during this so that I didn't suffocate in my own vomit. I was desperate for help and I knew I had to get serious. My GP gave me a stronger reflux drug and said it was time to take the cholesterol drugs, but I said there was one last thing I wanted to ask about first, which was that I had done online research and found that people who had the GI and other issues I had reported dramatic improvements when they cut out gluten grains and dairy from their diet. I also found studies linking gluten grains and dairy to GI issues and other problems. I asked if I should get tested for gluten and lactose intolerance. He instead recommended dietary elimination challenges as superior to lab tests (which can provide false positives and false negatives)--eliminate dairy for 2 weeks, then eliminate gluten for 2 weeks "and see how you do." I later realized that this was the best advice a doctor had ever given me.

I believe that his training in Russia and Israel probably accounted for his greater willingness to consider nutritional therapy than the American-trained doctors who had only recommended drugs, surgery, taking more and more fiber, and drinking more and more water (to try to prevent my chronic urinary tract infections and chronic kidney stones--to no avail). When I asked American doctors about diet I either got angry denials that diet could do anything ("That's an old wive's tale!") or brief angry quips to "eat more whole grains" (which I was already eating a ton of), drink more water (I could already hear the water sloshing around in my gut I was drinking so much), or "eat cooked corn" (fresh cooked corn already being one of my favorite foods--and I'd never heard of eating raw corn, what the hell???), often followed by the doctor running off to the next patient before I could explain I was already doing that nonsense (plus I was still too cowed by the magical aura of doctors at that time to argue with them, not yet having learned that American doctors know next to nothing about nutrition and preventative medicine).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:39:25 am
Going dairy-free produced some benefits. After just 3.5 weeks of going gluten-free, I experienced miraculously positive results (and I had decided to stay dairy free too). Here are my stats after 1.5 months of being dairy and gluten free (about 2 months dairy-free):

February 2004 (dairy- and gluten-free; miraculous improvements):
TSC 181
Tri 67
HDL 59
LDL 109
LCLDL 96
Non-HDL 122
TSC/HDL 3.1
CRP <0.5
Weight 160
BMI 22.3

I did more online research via www.beyondveg.com, medical research, etc., and learned about Boyd Eaton's theory of Paleolithic nutrition and hypothesis of biological discordance. Light bulbs went off when I read that and things started to fall into place for me. For the first time, so many questions about diet, health and lifestyle had intuitively obvious answers. Through Beyondveg I learned about the NeanderThin and The Paleo Diet books and bought them both, reanding NeanderThin first. I started adopting a modified Paleo diet in March of 2004 that combined elements of NeanderThin and the Paleo Diet, with my own modifications. My health improved to the best it had been in my life and I would even get waves of euphoria at times--such as after I first ate a large portion of wild salmon.

April 2004 (Paleo; feeling better than ever):
Systolic 102
Diastolic 56
RP 57
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:40:55 am
Under social pressures I gradually started to include more carbs in my diet. Most of my health stats continued to improve a bit more, though my HDL fell. I figured that my initially higher HDL was because of a temporary boost due to the dramatic improvement in my diet (I later realized it was because I was eating less carbs and more meat and fatty fish during that initial stage). My weight fell to a level that most people would consider extremely thin, but it was actually a return to my usual weight from the age of around 19 to 30, although I did hope that I would eventually be able to boost my muscle mass.

July 2005 (Paleo with increased carbs; feeling off my peak, but still far better than on SAD or near-veggie):
Systolic 98
Diastolic 60
RP ??
TSC 158
Tri ??
HDL 46
LDL 100
LCLDL ??
Non-HDL 112
TSC/HDL 3.4
Weight 135
BMI 18.3
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:44:31 am
Some of my old symptoms had started to gradually return, but I still felt so much better than I had before Paleo that I didn't pay much attention to it until things got noticably worse again in 2006-2007, despite my stellar health stats. I discovered one contributing factor was that prescription daily low-dose Glycolax for my IBS-C with D had given me severe chronic potassium deficiency (which I learned is why in Europe it is required that it include electrolytes). I took potassium for my cramps and zinc to keep my remaining acne at bay (which had never worked while eating SAD, but now worked in concert with a Paleo diet).

At the time I read NeanderThin and the Paleo Diet, Ray Audette's advocacy of raw and briefly-seared meat and animal fats, including pemmican, had made more intuitive sense to me than Loren Cordain's stress on lean, cooked commercial meats. I figured I could have the best of both worlds by eating pasture-fed meat and fat, but multiple factors caused me to put off trying anything beyond the occasional home-made beef jerky or store-bought grass-fed ground beef until I later got desperate again.

I supplemented with fish and flax oil and my HDL stat improved, though my weight dropped further to below normal even for me and I was feeling worse...

June 2007 (fish oil increases my HDL, but still eating significant carbs and feeling worse):
Systolic 98
Diastolic 60
RP 65
TSC 169
Tri ??
HDL 66
LDL 92
LCLDL ??
Non-HDL 103
TSC/HDL 2.6
Glucose-f 72
Glucose-r 87
Weight 127
BMI 17.7
urine pH 6.8 to 7.2
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 03:51:41 am
Tired of increasing health problems and with the new year approaching, I vowed to get more disciplined about my diet. Cutting back on nightshades and winter squashes in late 2007 and early 2008 gradually improved my health symptoms and how I felt again, with better sleep, lessened GI issues, etc., but I had a ways to go and I was too busy with an intensive training program I was in to devote time to improving my diet dramatically yet.

November 2008 (feeling bad, so begin to cut down on nightshades and winter squashes and start doing better soon after this):
Systolic 114
Diastolic 77
RP 70

After the training program was over and I had settled into my new job somewhat, and I had seen how small dietary changes enabled me to maintain my health even during a stressful, intensive program, I got more motivated to try pemmican again. I had trouble digesting animal fats and coconut oil, but I figured pemmican would be more digestible. Ray Audette was too vague about how to make pemmican, so I searched online and most other people were annoyingly vague as well, with widely varying advice and recipes. In the meantime I bought some pemmican online which was musty and salty and I hated it, with most of it going moldy before I could eat it and the price being too high for me anyway.

So I searched online again and found a discussion of pemmican at another forum by a guy calling himself DelFuego. The results that he and his family achieved on home-made pemmican were even better than I had expected and they loved it. Now I was really motivated to get going on making my own. At the same forum I came across Lex Rooker's writings on pemmican and his Pemmican Manual, which was the first really clear and detailed explanation of how to make it I had encountered.

So I made my first pemmican--disaster. Tried again--success. At the same time I began biting the fiscal bullet and buying what I figured were healthier foods, regardless of the cost. I was determined to get healthier no matter what.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 04:04:22 am
In 2009 I gradually restricted my diet to the following with amazing benefits in all my health issues:

By adopting this diet I no longer needed potassium supplements for toe and foot cramps or zinc to keep acne at bay, my loose teeth firmed up, gums stopped bleeding, dry skin and dandruff disappeared and I experienced other benefits.

Brief SuperInfinity "fruitarianesque" experiment bombs:
I spent 1 week on an experiment, at the urging of fellow forum member SuperInfinity, in which I increased the amount of fruits, nuts, dried fruits and canned fish I consumed and reduced red meat and fat, to clean out my pantry, see how quickly my symptoms would return and confirm that I should eliminate fruits and nuts. It only took a couple of days for me to notice worsening skin, crud on my teeth, return of mild nightmares, morning muscle aches, etc. After a week, one of my teeth started to wobble again and I ended the experiment.

Near ZC, mostly RPD: here are some of my current health stats (feeling great; weight back up a bit):
Systolic 110
Diastolic 69
RP 65
Weight: 132
BMI: 18.4
Urine pH: 5.8 (apparently normal for carnivores)

So that's the gist of the story up to now. I'm trying to further transition to all-raw and all-zero-carb.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: lex_rooker on July 27, 2009, 06:13:32 am
Thanks for posting this Phil.  It adds another beacon of light to help guide others.

Lex
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2009, 06:28:34 am
Thanks Lex.

Tip for newbies: venison sausage is one of the easier things to eat raw--expensive, but cheaper than the finer cuts of beef. It only took a few tries of this for me to like it quite a bit, and it tastes much better raw than cooked. It has some fat in it, but not nearly as much as commercial pork sausage, so it's easier to digest--plus it doesn't have the gristle of commercial pork sausage. Only downside is, the local people that make it and sell it in local health food markets put too much sage, salt and pepper in it, but we can't have everything I suppose. If it was unseasoned it would be pure heaven.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on July 27, 2009, 05:54:45 pm
Brief SuperInfinity "fruitarianesque" experiment bombs:
I spent 1 week on an experiment, at the urging of fellow forum member SuperInfinity, in which I increased the amount of fruits, nuts, dried fruits and canned fish I consumed and reduced red meat and fat, to clean out my pantry, see how quickly my symptoms would return and confirm that I should eliminate fruits and nuts. It only took a couple of days for me to notice worsening skin, crud on my teeth, return of mild nightmares, morning muscle aches, etc. After a week, one of my teeth started to wobble again and I ended the experiment.

Thanks for the detailed report, Phil. Gosh, you suffered a lot ! Just two remarks:
- Why canned fish? There is than a (perhaps remote, but it is there nevertheless) possibility that your troubles aren't due to the increased fruits intake, but to the canned fish ! 
- Short term experiments may be misleading since there are many phenomenons and parameters which could lead to wrong interpretations, in particular detoxination and food quality.

Cheers
Francois 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 28, 2009, 10:18:16 am
- Why canned fish? There is than a (perhaps remote, but it is there nevertheless) possibility that your troubles aren't due to the increased fruits intake, but to the canned fish ! 
Not likely. I ate it all in a couple days and had no increase in problems from that. In contrast, the days after I gorged on fruits or nuts I experienced a big increase in symptoms. I ate the canned fish to mostly clean out my pantry so I can go fully raw ZC without many temptations around, plus so I could test the recommendation of SuperInfinity to eat more like his zany diet (he gave me the idea to eat lots more fruits and nuts and less red meat and fat and he eats canned fish) and so I could start sooner on my meat/organs/fat diet, which so far has had far better results for me.

I'm sorry to disappoint the fruit and veg fans out there, but time and time again I have done better as I've increased the meats and fats in my diet and cut back on the carbs and modern foods. First when I cut out the dairy, then gluten grains (very big improvement there), then processed foods and legumes, then nightshades and winter squashes, then juices and dried fruits, then fresh fruits and most remaining veggies (except for some spring greens, broccoli and cauliflower at this point--which I haven't noticed any ill effects from). Each step along the way I've experienced improvements, in spite of people like SuperInfinity and other plant-food fans and 99% of the experts claiming I would do worse. They lose more credibility with me each time they turn out to be wrong, whereas Lex Rooker, William and other VLC and ZC dieters continue to gain credibility in my book--even though I was a bit skeptical of some of their claims at first. I keep trying to find something that Lex is wrong about when it comes to my experience or research, but so far I've failed. I'll get him yet! ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 28, 2009, 10:23:51 am
Thanks Lex.

Tip for newbies: venison sausage is one of the easier things to eat raw--expensive, but cheaper than the finer cuts of beef. It only took a few tries of this for me to like it quite a bit, and it tastes much better raw than cooked. It has some fat in it, but not nearly as much as commercial pork sausage, so it's easier to digest--plus it doesn't have the gristle of commercial pork sausage. Only downside is, the local people that make it and sell it in local health food markets put too much sage, salt and pepper in it, but we can't have everything I suppose. If it was unseasoned it would be pure heaven.
OK, I found near pure heaven--raw ground venison meat. It tastes very much like the venison sausage without the added spices. It's my favorite raw meat so far. Not surprising, given that it was my favorite cooked meat too. Unfortunately it's probably partly grain fed. Now if it was 100% pasture fed, that would really be pure heaven!  ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Raw Kyle on July 30, 2009, 09:55:50 am
Excellent journal so far. I wish you continued success.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 30, 2009, 10:16:14 am
Excellent journal so far. I wish you continued success.
Thank you raw brother! :D

Where did the crud and tartar go? When I ate high carb or even low carb I used a metal scraper to scrape the crud and tartar off my teeth every couple of days. I tried it the past 3 days and there was no crud or tartar to scrape! My teeth feel as smooth as polished ivory! What kind of voodoo magic is this? Heh heh.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 31, 2009, 08:57:26 am
I'll record this before I forget when it was I started. I used to take potassium and zinc supplements every day to avoid foot/toe cramps and acne. Since going mostly raw Paleo ZC I have not needed them.

No potassium supplements since July 19
No zinc supplements since July 21

I did have a couple of minor cases of potassium cramps and acne breakout (which were not nearly as bad as past instances), but they quickly resolved after I ate some raw meat, so supplements have been unnecessary.

I do find that I sometimes need to either eat a big breakfast or have something hot to drink in the morning to keep the bowels moving, and too much water is drawn out of them if I don't, but that was even more true before ZC RPD. I haven't noticed any decrease in quantity or frequency on ZC RPD like so many others have reported...just improvements.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 04, 2009, 08:30:43 am
I skipped three meals and only had a mild toe cramp, so my potassium levels appear to be continuing to improve. It also confirms that I should continue to eat regular meals, probably more than once a day. I seem to do best when I eat 3 meals a day, though 1 or 2 meals can be small as long as I have some raw meat at them.

ANOTHER PAST VEGETARIAN EPISODE I FORGOT:

After talking to a friend I realized I forgot an important part of my history that makes sense to me now. I had another vegetarian episode where I had to live in a vegetarian household for about 3 months after college. The strictest of the vegheads was an unpleasant, dour individual with a temper who went berserk when one time I cooked a tiny bit of meat in the house. I had thought the house was vegetarianism-optional, but it was actually required. I had still been occasionally eating meat outside the household too, but I decided to treat the experience as an opportunity to try vegetarianism more thoroughly after having experimented with it for only a week in college. One thing I remember is how tired I was during that time, but I thought it was because I had an uncomfortable sleeping arrangement (since then I've learned I can sleep well on nothing but a small pad when eating carnivorously).

Even after I moved out I continued to eat mostly plant foods for a while, in part because I had little money and they were cheaper than meats. I was quite shocked when at my next dental visit I had to get a bunch of cavities filled, and never made a connection, because I still thought vegetarianism was supposed to be healthy.

With my new knowledge of how much damage carbs can do to the teeth and how rapidly it can happen, I think my diet at the time was the main cause of all the cavities I got.

As I made more money I started eating more meats. I never had that many cavities at a single dental visit again after that, but I did develop gum disease and some loose teeth.

Since going carnivore, my loose teeth have firmed, a big hole in one tooth has partly filled in and my gums are much healthier, with no more noticeable bleeding.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 05, 2009, 01:26:07 pm
Yay, I like raw, ground grass-fed beef now. When I first tried it, it tasted sour and musty and I didn't like the texture. Not any more. That makes things easier and cheaper.

Here was the secret for me: I ate ground domestic venison sausage and venison meat first (the ground venison meat tasted best) at about 4-5 meals, which tasted pretty good right from the start, then ground grain-finished bison meat once, which is about half-way in taste between venison and beef, then tried the beef and this time I liked it.

Now I just have to get used to raw suet and I should be able to eat large orders of Slankers, though I should probably continue the transition period longer, so I don't lose weight by trying to eat too high a % of raw too early.

I noticed a very subtle and unusual benefit of this diet. In my work I draw lines to cross out lines of data in lists, to keep my place. I've never been able to draw straight lines well--going back to 1st grade art class where I marveled at how straight my the lines of my teacher and some other students were. Over about the last week it seems to be easier to draw straight lines. My handwriting had improved slightly months ago, and this is a further improvement in that area. My skin continues to improve to the point where it feels enjoyable to rub--very soft and smooth--and additional tiny bumps that had been on my forehead for decades have disappeared (I thought those were going to be permanent--there are still a few very tiny ones that no one would ever notice).

Coincidentally, children with autism are known to tend to have very poor handwriting, which in at least one case was dramatically improved with dietary change.

Interestingly, each time I've eaten significant amounts of cooked meat I've had a tiny acne breakout. I searched on it and found that other raw eaters have experienced this also. Bummer--looks like even somewhat small amounts of cooked meat can have mild negative effects on me as I go increasingly raw.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 10, 2009, 06:31:27 am
Raw suet doesn't turn me off anymore and I ate some plain and liked it and digested it fine, though I still prefer tallow because it doesn't have gnarly and hard-to-chew stuff in it. I figure I'll get more gnarly myself over time and be able to eat more of the pure raw stuff. Heck, people in the real world and at the ZC forum already think I'm gnarly for eating raw meat and eggs, so I may as well go the whole way!  ;D

I tried rendering tallow at the higher setting on my crock pot, but it gave it a burnt flavor after just a couple hours. So I'll stick to the low setting, though I suspect I'll have to run it for a very long time to avoid spoilage of larger batches and may need to use the stove instead if I do really big batches.

I've had a return of constipation and a tiny amount of dry skin, which may be related to skipping breakfast (breakfast helps get things moving in the morning) and the big increase in cooked meats and occasional cup of coffee I've been eating to be sociable at work and home. My dandruff has stayed in check, though, with only small amounts of extremely tiny specks of it visible even on a dark jacket (and I had it since high school before ZC). I'm going to try to eat less cooked meats and avoid coffee this week.

I noticed that tea tree oil - treated toothpicks generate lots of saliva. I suspect that this is part of its therapeutic action--killing and washing away harmful bacteria with saliva. Aboriginal peoples and chimps are known to use tree bark and twigs t clean their teeth. I suspect the oil used in tea tree oil has the same or similar active ingredients and may even come from the same tree that some of these aborigines and/or chimps use.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 10, 2009, 09:22:00 am
WATER IS NEARLY MY ONLY BEVERAGE NOW AND I'M LIKING WATER MUCH MORE AS A RESULT
Giving up near-daily tea required getting over mental resistance to this. Occasional heartburn from it helped me to make the switch. Unsurprisingly, as with most things, it turns out to be not as bad as I expected. By continuing to drink some juice and lots of tea with my water and then tea alone with my water, it resulted in water tasting very bland to me. By eliminating the other beverages my taste buds have apparently become more sensitive and water tastes slightly sweet to me (don't understand that fully).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on August 10, 2009, 10:40:41 pm
I get water from the lake before my house, and filter it because otherwise in summer it tastes, um, sort of slippery and is now yellow. Lots of life in the lake, which is in a wild forest far from the madding crowd, this is probably why it turns slightly yellow in late summer.
I filter it with a large activated carbon filter because there is a limit  to how much raw paleo I can stand. it's OK to drink it straight.

Still drink coffee, home roasted and ground, organic Colombian because that has never caused health problems.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 11, 2009, 05:24:35 am
Already cheated some by drinking 2 cups of coffee today because I was tired. Oh well, I guess I don't have quite the discipline that Lex does. Too bad I can't control what is available at work. ;) Got some heartburn from it because I drank it between meals when my stomach was pretty empty--just like with the tea.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on August 11, 2009, 10:18:33 pm
The easiest way to proceed is to decide one day to no longer eat or drink anything processed, mixed or heated over 40°C (104 °F). It's similar to stop smoking or stop taking any kind of dope: you have to stop totally to keep things nice and easy, otherwise you're likely to fall back. Cooked food is addictive, just like any dope.  -d

Quote
Cooking food also generates thousands of chemicals. There are over 1000 chemicals reported in a cup of coffee. Only 26 have been tested in animal cancer tests and more than half are rodent carcinogens; there are still a thousand chemicals left to test. The amount of potentially carcinogenic pesticide residues consumed in a year is less than the amount known of rodent carcinogens in a cup of coffee.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/A/Ames_Causes.html


Cheers
Francois
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 15, 2009, 09:05:53 am
I'm almost there, Francois. At this point I just allow myself the occasional cup of coffee or tea when I'm tired. Otherwise, I drink water. Because I rarely drink anything other than water, simple tap water has come to taste very good to me. Strangely, it even tastes sweet. This is quite a cost savings and convenience as well.

My bowels are returning to normal again now that I'm back to eating almost-all-raw meat after several days of excessive cooked-meat eating due to company BBQ and family get-together. It seems to be more than just coincidence.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: primavera on August 15, 2009, 11:03:38 pm
I've noticed that with water, too. It only tastes sweet when I'm thirsty. When I'm not, I feel the taste further back on my tongue, in the bitter regions.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on August 16, 2009, 12:32:12 am
Because I rarely drink anything other than water, simple tap water has come to taste very good to me. Strangely, it even tastes sweet. This is quite a cost savings and convenience as well.
Isn't tap water chlorinated at your place ? Chlorine is very noxious... but anyway, chlorinated water is not as bad as coffee !

Cheers
Francois
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 16, 2009, 05:33:45 am
I've noticed that with water, too. It only tastes sweet when I'm thirsty. When I'm not, I feel the taste further back on my tongue, in the bitter regions.
Yeah, I wonder what the biological processes are behind that? Apparently the taste buds are activated in a certain way and different taste buds kick in at different times?

When I haven't eaten suet or tallow for a while, it sometimes tastes sweet too, though that's pretty rare now, because I eat it nearly every day.

Isn't tap water chlorinated at your place ? Chlorine is very noxious... but anyway, chlorinated water is not as bad as coffee !

Cheers
Francois
Yeah, I've thought about getting an activated carbon filter, but I had one in the past that I was not thrilled with. It took up counter space, it was annoying to have to switch back and forth between filtering and not, and the inside of the tube that connected to the faucet got coated in gunk, which seemed to defeat the purpose of having the filter. Anyone have any filter recommendations?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on August 16, 2009, 06:27:34 am

Yeah, I've thought about getting an activated carbon filter, but I had one in the past that I was not thrilled with. It took up counter space, it was annoying to have to switch back and forth between filtering and not, and the inside of the tube that connected to the faucet got coated in gunk, which seemed to defeat the purpose of having the filter. Anyone have any filter recommendations?

I use one of these for all drinking and cooking water:
http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/SecWebOrderPg.htm
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 20, 2009, 06:01:31 am
Thanks, William.

My bowels have optimized again, now that I've been back to eating more raw meat after several days of eating cooked meats socially. It could be coincidence, but it makes intuitive sense, given that cooking meats drives water out of them, condenses them and makes them harder to digest. This could be one reason why so many ZC cooked-meat eaters feel the need to drink lots of water.

I got a foot cramp this morning after not having any for a record time of around a couple weeks, I think. It was mild and a potassium supplement took care of it quickly. I had two very light meals in a row and was eating less than usual, so this suggests to me that I need to keep the consumption of meat pretty high and keep it as raw as possible to avoid a return of the cramps that used to be severe unless I took daily potassium on a low-carb diet and are mostly gone on a raw (nondairy) carnivorous diet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 22, 2009, 08:25:54 am
Occasional mead (honey wine) or wine were the alcoholic beverages I had been limiting myself to. I had been noticing at social occasions that mead doesn't seem to have any noticeable negative effects on me, for some reason. So I did a little Lex-Rooker-type self experimentation ;). I drank an entire bottle of mead over a two day period, including about 3/4 of it in one sitting on the second night. I got rather buzzed the second night, but only felt high and good and it actually felt like I was more energetic and stronger. I had always been a lightweight when it comes to alcoholic beverages, so I was surprised to find I had absolutely no hangover the next day despite drinking way more in one sitting than I have in many years and I slept quite well. So I experimented some more for comparison and to see what other alcoholic beverages I can handle better than I used to--big mistake! :D

I bought a bottle of organic, sulfite-free red wine and drank about half of it. I figured if it's organic and sulfite free I should have a similar experience, right? Wrong! This time I got tipsy. I felt unpleasantly dizzy and lethargic. Before I could even drink half the bottle my throat started to burn and every sip was like pouring gas on a fire. I gave up and dumped the rest of the bottle out. Lucky thing I did, because I woke up around 4 am from a bad dream and feeling miserable, with nausea and malaise. After an episode of diarrhea I felt a bit better. Eating some jerky with tallow proved to be an excellent hangover cure, which I discovered once before. No more organic, sulfite-free red wine for me!

I did some searching and found a couple of claims by others that unflavored mead does not cause hangovers, whereas red wine is known to cause bad hangovers. Does anyone know why red grape wine would cause hangovers but honey wine not, or much less?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on August 22, 2009, 08:36:31 am


I did some searching and found a couple of claims by others that unflavored mead does not cause hangovers, whereas red wine is known to cause bad hangovers. Does anyone know why red grape wine would cause hangovers but honey wine not, or much less?

Do you have a mead-making recipe?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 22, 2009, 08:41:07 am
 :) No, I buy my mead from a local apiary. It's probably not good that I found this stuff, because it is amazingly good. Very clean and crisp with no aftertaste, no dizziness, no mental fog, and no hangover effect (I actually felt like I could beat someone up, which may be why Gaulic warriors drank the stuff before battle :) ). For the life of me, I can't figure out why Europeans ever gave up mead for wine, other than profit. I only initially tried it out of curiosity, just because it's the most ancient of all alcoholic beverages, dating back at least 10,000 years. Once again our ancestors apparently knew best. ;)

BTW, mead is making a comeback in Ireland, according to one article I read.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 22, 2009, 05:12:01 pm
I'm not surprised that anyone would react to red wine(or wine in general). It's been recently admitted that wine-makers routinely add all sorts of crap to wine such as dairy products, sugar and all sorts of artificial chemicals(probably even with organic wines, albeit to a lesser extent).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on August 24, 2009, 04:27:58 am
Hi PaleoPhil!!

You wrote on another thread about yoga positions you particular dislike and like... can you be more specific?  I had gotten into hot yoga for a while, I liked it a lot and the hot room was like heaven for me because I am always cold so I felt like I could really work well that way.  I really want to be able to the advanced poses that require you to be able to support your full body weight.  I'm not there yet, but I'd like to achieve that. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 24, 2009, 08:51:37 am
I'm not surprised that anyone would react to red wine(or wine in general). It's been recently admitted that wine-makers routinely add all sorts of crap to wine such as dairy products, sugar and all sorts of artificial chemicals(probably even with organic wines, albeit to a lesser extent).
It was Our Daily Red, by American Canyon, winner of the 2008 international Green Wine competition. They claim it is organic, "vegan-friendly" (I assume that would mean it is free of dairy), and free of sulfite, chemicals, and preservatives. Do you know of any additives in their wine?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 24, 2009, 09:19:18 am
Hi PaleoPhil!!

You wrote on another thread about yoga positions you particular dislike and like... can you be more specific?  I had gotten into hot yoga for a while, I liked it a lot and the hot room was like heaven for me because I am always cold so I felt like I could really work well that way.  I really want to be able to the advanced poses that require you to be able to support your full body weight.  I'm not there yet, but I'd like to achieve that. 
The main ones I avoid involve hyperextension and compression of the spine and unsupported standing toe touches. I also try to avoid doing things that involve stretching if I am not warmed up. Stretching has also come under increasing question in general, so my favorite poses tend to focus more on balance and strength and the stretching I occasionally do is more to check how flexible my muscles and joints are--and they continue to grow increasingly flexible and more-balanced without regular yoga. For example, I can now do the Gomukhasana (cow face (http://www.syvum.fr/iosundry/fun/yoga/yoga_pose_cow_face_gomukhasana_b.jpg)) pose nearly equally well with both arms--fully grasping the hands behind my back from either the left or right side, whereas it used to be that my hands did not touch at all when I did it with the left arm raised. This improvement occurred solely through dietary change.

Most of the people in my yoga class also had more difficulty with one side and the instructor said that this was common. I now suspect that everyone who has that problem has a suboptimal diet.

My favorite poses to check how my balance is doing are awkward pose, eagle pose, tree pose and toe stand pose.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 24, 2009, 04:41:26 pm
It was Our Daily Red, by American Canyon, winner of the 2008 international Green Wine competition. They claim it is organic, "vegan-friendly" (I assume that would mean it is free of dairy), and free of sulfite, chemicals, and preservatives. Do you know of any additives in their wine?

No, but I'm sure they use some plant-derived chemical in there, somewhere. When I look at so-called "organic" juices etc, (when they have any listed ingredients), there's almost always at least 1 nonorganic ingredient somewhere.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 25, 2009, 05:12:17 am
Not the ones I used to buy. When I bought juice I made sure it didn't say "natural flavors" or any kind of added flavors or sweeteners at all. Just juice or pulp and water.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 25, 2009, 06:57:14 pm
Hmm, you know I might try buying a bottle of organic mead.I once had it as a child, decades ago, and it was quite good.Alcohol seems to be my only "sin" these days, and doesn't affect me anywhere near as badly as cooked foods do(re burping/vomiting/farting and other side-effects etc.)

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 26, 2009, 08:55:18 am
Warning: for the heck of it, and because it came in a small bottle, I tried the sweet version of mead that my local apiary makes. It tasted pretty bad and it gave me a slight feeling of malaise that didn't completely go away until mid-morning the next day--though it didn't give me a full hangover. It's surprising how much more negative a food can be for me with just an increase in sugar level.

I've had problems with acidic foods in the past like tomato sauce and orange juice. I wonder if that could have contributed to my problem with organic, chemical-free red wine?

My teeth continue to get firmer. I almost don't need my retainer--which I've been using for years--to keep my loosest teeth standing straight anymore.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 28, 2009, 09:12:00 am
BTW, I had very mild toe cramping the morning after drinking the sweet mead, whereas the less-sweet meads didn't have that effect on me and a smaller quantity of red wine caused worse cramps. So sugars seem to contribute to the cramping, and perhaps something else in the wine as well, and potassium supplements or raw beef resolves it.

Other than the recent mead and wine experiments, I've been good about just eating raw ground bison and venison, raw grassfed beef, raw suet, jerky and melted suet heated below 40 degrees celsius, and water, and I'm feeling quite good as a result.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on August 28, 2009, 09:43:23 pm
Potassium is supposed to be used for carbohydrate metabolism, so if you are close to mineral deficiency it seems reasonable that consumption of anything sweet would push you over the edge and cause a symptom such as cramping.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 29, 2009, 07:20:11 am
Fascinating! I did not know that. So carbs CAN deplete potassium and the mechanism is known. Thanks William! Do you have a reference where I can learn more about this?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 29, 2009, 09:52:00 am
OK, I completed a 5-day rotation off of eggs (8/22 - 8/27), so this afternoon I had 3 eggs and I'm going to try to eat a lot of raw eggs and see whether I bulk up at all and how my health fares. If whole raw eggs are half as bad as some people have claimed at this forum and another one, this should kill me pretty quickly.  ;)  Hey! Why are you dancing?  :o
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on August 29, 2009, 10:08:15 am
Fascinating! I did not know that. So carbs CAN deplete potassium and the mechanism is known. Thanks William! Do you have a reference where I can learn more about this?

I learned this while a member of http://www.afibbers.org/toboards.htm ,but I don't remember who found it or where.
Many of them use the three supplements to keep their hearbeat steady, and have experienced the symptoms of carb eating as atrial fibrillation. (Potassium, magnesium, taurine)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 29, 2009, 10:45:02 am
I learned this while a member of http://www.afibbers.org/toboards.htm ,but I don't remember who found it or where.
Many of them use the three supplements to keep their hearbeat steady, and have experienced the symptoms of carb eating as atrial fibrillation. (Potassium, magnesium, taurine)
Interesting, I've had numerous symptoms of magnesium deficiency in the past too, and still have some minor symptoms suggestive of that.

*****************

I was reminded by another thread of a couple other changes I've noticed since going mostly-raw carnivore: the white spots have disappeared from my fingernails (linked to zinc deficiency) and some of my vertical fingernail ridges are disappearing (linked to mineral and protein deficiencies).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 31, 2009, 12:57:07 am
I sometimes get into heated debates, so maybe it's a good idea if I explain some more of what brought me here and my thinking.

I've found a near-ZC (carnivorous), near totally raw approach to be best for me so far and I came to it by learning about Paleo diets through Don Wiss, Beyondveg.com, Ray Audette, Loren Cordain and others. However, there is no forum that is both carnivorous and raw, so I did much of my exploration and sharing at two forums--a ZC one (which is the closest approximation to a carnivorous forum I've come across, other than a carnivorous thread/subforum or two at other forums, including this one) and this raw Paleo one. My diet and views are similar to Lex's, which is what led me here, so it's not surprising that like him I've found my experiences and views a bit better accepted here than the other forum, as both Lex and I ran into some criticism for stating things that didn't follow the party line there (though I think we probably would have gotten less criticism if we restricted our comments to journals--but you apparently have to post there quite a while before you can start a journal). It wasn't really bad treatment or anything, and understandable given the goals of that other forum. I just tend to go where I will learn the most (such as from Lex) and where my input is most welcome.

However, my experiences and views can sometimes cause heat here as well, since some people didn't do well on ZC or VLC, so I don't claim to speak for everyone and welcome non-carnivores and significant carb eaters to this forum and hope they can tolerate a carnivore who enjoys sharing what I learn about the carnivorous aspects of human, hominid and primate diets. I've learned a lot from this forum so far and like the generally friendly atmosphere.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 31, 2009, 07:54:10 am
I have found balance and flexibility to be good markers for how "balanced" (aka healthy) my diet is. I test them now and then with balancing yogic postures. When I eat foods that are bad for me, my balance and flexibility worsen. So worsening balance and flexibility can signal to me that I am eating a food that does not agree with me, whereas improvements in the same signal I am eating right. Right now my balance and flexibility are better than any other time I've ever tested them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Raw Kyle on August 31, 2009, 10:04:59 am
Do you practice that stuff? The time my balance and flexibility is the best is when I train it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 31, 2009, 10:22:17 am
I used to practice it and experienced only slight improvement. Now that I eat right, my balance and flexibility have improved dramatically, despite not practicing it to any significant degree.


I discovered that my local health food market carries fertilized eggs--yay. So I'm getting my egg experiment going in earnest. I had 8 fertilized chicken eggs and 2 quail eggs tonight. The fertilized eggs tasted a little lemony, which will take some getting used to, whereas I found that the omega-3 unfertilized eggs had vanilla notes.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on August 31, 2009, 10:14:53 pm
Good one. I note improvement in balance and flexibility as lack of broken toe nails/less clumsy walking.

Complicated by poor balance when I had partial deafness due to old earwax buildup.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 01, 2009, 07:08:26 am
Yes, my earwax buildup is less now too. I used to get it chronically in one ear.

I have a theory on that--I think it's similar to the buildup of mucus in the throat, sinuses and bowels when biologically inappropriate foods with antigenic and inflammatory effects are ingested and the body tries to put up a protective barrier against them, as well as get rid of them by sneezing and coughing (allergies, asthma, bronchitis), defecating (IBS-D), and/or urinating (type 1 diabetes).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 03, 2009, 07:27:11 am
I've been good about eating raw and not cheating much and haven't had any cramps lately.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on September 03, 2009, 09:23:04 am
A very interesting history Phil.
I look forward to seeing how things go for you the longer you're on a ZC/raw diet. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 03, 2009, 09:57:10 am
Thanks!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 08, 2009, 06:53:05 am
OK, I've been generally eating 3-8 eggs a day; no ill effects, but no weight yet gain either.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 09, 2009, 11:17:26 am
OK, now for a gross topic. ;D

My stool volume has decreased, as other people reported. This suggests to me either that my GI tract is digesting better, or a raw carnivorous diet is easier for me to digest than moderate-carb mostly cooked Paleo and half cooked near-ZC, or both.

The downside is I got a bit constipated as a result, because my colon tends to suck water out of its stool contents at a rapid rate and less volume has meant going less often, with some drying of the stool as a result. It's not nearly as bad as it was in my carby days, though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on September 09, 2009, 12:18:00 pm
Try squatting instead of sitting on the toilet, might help.

"The principal cause of constipation is the result of the awkward nature of the angle of rectum (bottom) when defecating in the sitting posture normally used in western method of defecation. The only or the best normal defecation position is squatting posture allowing smooth bowel removal."


http://hubpages.com/hub/Health-benefits-of-squat-toilets
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 10, 2009, 07:06:24 am
yes, I agree that squatting is best (it's the way most of the world still does it, since most Chinese and Indians still squat, I believe), though I sometimes forget

thanks for the article; I can use that study to help convince family
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on September 11, 2009, 10:28:45 am
an increase of fat can help.  Most of a stool from a carb eater is bacteria
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 11, 2009, 10:38:56 am
Yeah, but I cut back on fat a bit because I was getting saliva that was so sweet it was gross. That may have contributed to the mild constipation, but I wanted a break from the saliva.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 12, 2009, 09:11:12 am
Wow! My teeth have really firmed up. It used to be that my retainer was easy to put on, because my teeth would simply move into place if it was slightly off as I pushed it into place. Now my teeth are rock-solid and I have to place my retainer on perfectly to get it on. My teeth no longer budge at all.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 15, 2009, 09:52:32 am
Quote
My teeth no longer budge at all."
Quote
I mean they don't budge when I put my retainer on. I can still move my loosest tooth with my fingers a little bit, but it doesn't wobble like it used to and my tongue can't move it.

I cheated today and ate some 2 cooked bison burgers, 3 cooked eggs and 3 strawberries with lettuce and olive oil because I was too hungry after work to wait until I got home, so I ate at a cafeteria. I was still hungry later and ate some raw meat and melted suet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 16, 2009, 08:04:26 am
I've had a big drop in remaining dandruff in recent days; don't know whether the tea tree oil shampoo I've been using helped at all or not or if this is just continuation of the improvement from diet.

My spine has straightened noticeably more. Pretty amazing how rapid the improvement is since going carnivorous.

I noticed that the grassfed suet I've been getting recently seems to have less of the fibrous, connective tissue stuff and gnarly bits than the grainfed stuff. More pure suet. It's definitely more yellow too, like people said.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 17, 2009, 05:36:17 am
This thread: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/iris-colour-change-on-a-raw-animal-food-diet/msg17163/#msg17163 people were talking about their eye color changing from brown to green, blue, etc. on a Paleo diet. I was convinced my eyes couldn't have changed color because they've been solid brown my whole life. I just looked and, sure enough, the outer edge of my iris has turned dark blue-green, and I've only been eating mostly-RPD for about a month. Simply amazing.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 18, 2009, 07:31:06 am
I took my first ketone measurment: small-moderate (15-40 mg/dl), so I guess I'm not fully ketone adapted yet.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 21, 2009, 07:28:35 am
I lowered my fat intake and ketones dropped to trace amounts (about 5 mg/dl) and the sweet saliva went away. My weight is up to 137 lbs now, possibly in part due to some rare-cooked steak and a little bit of french fries I ate on a couple of social occasions.

I visited my parents and my mother said the ring around my eyes is blue, so I think my original identification of it as blue-green is probably right, but maybe more blue than green. It turns out my father has a blue ring around his eyes that he wasn't aware of and neither of them could remember whether I had one before or not, so maybe I had it and wasn't aware of it. It's possible, given my partial color-blindness. I'll try to remember to check it every now and then and report any changes.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 23, 2009, 05:39:39 am
Yesterday I walked to work wearing a short-sleeve shirt in 46 degree weather with a "real feel" of 46 degrees without shivering. I think that's the coldest weather I've handled coatless without shivering in my lifetime. I could see my breath. Granted, walking warms the body, but it was still remarkable given how sensitive to the cold I used to be.

I read an article which, as I recall, attributed the ability of the Inuit to go shirtless in 50 degree weather without shivering to the slightly higher levels of internal abdominal fat they have, but I am skin-and-bones and I came close to their feat, so I think diet is a much bigger factor. Animal fats seem to be the key.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on September 23, 2009, 06:01:11 am
Yesterday I walked to work wearing a short-sleeve shirt in 46 degree weather with a "real feel" of 46 degrees without shivering. I think that's the coldest weather I've handled coatless without shivering in my lifetime. I could see my breath. Granted, walking warms the body, but it was still remarkable given how sensitive to the cold I used to be.

I read an article which, as I recall, attributed the ability of the Inuit to go shirtless in 50 degree weather without shivering to the slightly higher levels of internal abdominal fat they have, but I am skin-and-bones and I came close to their feat, so I think diet is a much bigger factor. Animal fats seem to be the key.

I do agree that (raw) animal food in large quantities does protect against the cold and is very useful for me when skiing, but it's a problem in summer, of course. In summer, I usually have to cut down considerably on raw animal food consumption and either just eat very little or greatly increase the amounts of raw plant foods in the diet - otherwise, I start sweating pretty heavily, which is unpleasant. of course, 1 major problem re all this is that in palaeo times we didn't wear clothes(except perhaps simple furs, though I doubt it), so I'm sure that if I wandered around stark naked in summer, the issue re  raw meats making me hotter would be irrelevant. Sadly, we will need major cultural changes before I can do that.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 23, 2009, 06:25:16 am
I do agree that (raw) animal food in large quantities does protect against the cold and is very useful for me when skiing, but it's a problem in summer, of course. In summer, I usually have to cut down considerably on raw animal food consumption and either just eat very little or greatly increase the amounts of raw plant foods in the diet - otherwise, I start sweating pretty heavily, which is unpleasant....
I thought overheating in the summer would be a problem for me too and was prepared to reintroduce some carbs like berries, but it didn't happen. One thing that helped is that it was a cool summer, but even hot temps, whether outside or in my stuffy office, did not bother me. I started thinking about this after my post on handling the cold better. How is it that I also handle heat well too? It's like my body's thermostat is working better or something. Anyone else experience this? I think Lex mentioned something along these lines.

I don't sweat much, but I never did, so not much change there other than maybe a tiny bit more sweating (which is probably more natural and aids cooling--the idea of trying to eliminate sweat with antiperspirants is an unnatural modern notion, of course, though that's easy for me to say given that I don't have to deal with heavy sweating).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on September 23, 2009, 10:42:01 am
One day in winter in Inuit country we had a heat wave - temp went up to about -10F, so I did a photo op.
Went out wearing army mukluks, snug swim shorts and earmuffs, carrying the ice chisel which is about 6' long.
The trick is to bathe & dry  first - if there is no wind blowing, the dry fine body hair in abundant sunlight are enough to keep us warm. The ear in shadow will freeze, so earmuffs. I am not considered hairy.

I was eating a lot of pork then.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 28, 2009, 11:00:54 am
My dental visit went pretty well. I had no significant pain despite having stopped taking prescription fluoride (which had deadened the pain in my exposed root in the past, that had been very painful to clean) over a month before. I cannot remember the last time there was no pain in a dental cleaning.

I still had quite a bit of tartar on my lower teeth, which are prone to it, as with past visits, probably in part because I stretched my visit beyond the normal 3 months to 4 and was not as thorough about my dental hygiene as I had been in the past. The hygienist was surprised that the high-pressure-water cleaning did not hurt in the slightest, as it does many of her other patients. Both my teeth and gums are less sensitive than they were in the past, although the pressure cleaning had been only slightly painful in the past.

When I told my hygienist that my loose teeth were no longer wiggling, she said it could be the tartar. Yet, after she cleaned away the tartar, my teeth were still not wiggly. My gum bleeding was lessened, but there was still some, which my hygienist attributed to insufficiently thorough flossing.

Then my dentist came in and checked me out and couldn't move the formerly wiggly teeth that he and the hygienist had wiggled before. When I mentioned that they were no longer wiggling, he attributed this to proper flossing and brushing, despite the fact that the hygienist had attributed the bleeding to inadequate flossing. Like Lex, I didn't bother to disabuse him of his notion or point out the contradiction. Neither of them seemed to remember the extent to which my teeth had wiggled in the past, for which I don't blame them, because it's probably a minor issue to them and they have many patients.

I tried the 9" foot stool that Lex suggested for the toilet (to convert it into a more natural squat toilet). It's amazing how much easier it made things. At 9" it still felt a little low and awkward. I think that even-with-the-rim and to the sides instead of the front would be more natural, but a 9" stool does seem to produce a major improvement.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 30, 2009, 09:36:19 am
To help prevent tartar, I was thinking of getting something like this:

Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls 60 Pearls
by Nature's Way
Price: $16.39

It contains lactobacillus reuteri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_reuteri). Reuteri has been shown in studies to have dental  benefits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_reuteri#Clinical_results_in_humans). Probiotics seem more in keeping with a Paleo/Primal approach than processed sugar alcohols like xylitol. What do you think? I suppose high meat bacteria would be even better, so I will try to learn more about high meats and eventually try more of them. I also started taking some magnesium supplements again--I think I went down to zero too fast.

Another change I noticed from the RPD is that even when I haven't gotten much sleep and am very tired I yawn less than I used to and my yawns are much smaller and briefer. Anyone else notice that?

I also continue to handle cold and hot temperatures better and better. It's like my body's thermostat is getting better tuned on a higher-fat diet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on September 30, 2009, 09:55:11 am
Another change I noticed from the RPD is that even when I haven't gotten much sleep and am very tired I yawn less than I used to and my yawns are much smaller and briefer. Anyone else notice that?

I hadn't noticed it myself but now that you mention it I do believe I've been yawning less lately.
On the other hand I've been getting regular aerobic exercise daily (jogging) with anaerobic sprints so I might just be processing oxygen better...
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on September 30, 2009, 11:28:17 am
To help prevent tartar, I was thinking of getting something like this:

Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls 60 Pearls
by Nature's Way
Price: $16.39

It contains lactobacillus reuteri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_reuteri). Reuteri has been shown in studies to have dental  benefits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_reuteri#Clinical_results_in_humans). Probiotics seem more in keeping with a Paleo/Primal approach than processed sugar alcohols like xylitol. What do you think? I suppose high meat bacteria would be even better, so I will try to learn more about high meats and eventually try more of them. I also started taking some magnesium supplements again--I think I went down to zero too fast.

Zero carb seems to be all I need for clean teeth.

Quote
Another change I noticed from the RPD is that even when I haven't gotten much sleep and am very tired I yawn less than I used to and my yawns are much smaller and briefer. Anyone else notice that?


Yes, me too. I suppose the body is better oxygenated, greatly reduces chance of cancer.

Quote
I also continue to handle cold and hot temperatures better and better. It's like my body's thermostat is getting better tuned on a higher-fat diet.

Yes! I could work up to my waist in the cold springtime lake water while others complain when they have to keep their hands in it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 01, 2009, 07:05:02 am
Yes, me too. I suppose the body is better oxygenated, greatly reduces chance of cancer.
Yes, and it's interesting that both cancer cells and bacteria that cause cavities and gum disease are anaerobic.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 02, 2009, 10:28:46 am
Hooray! The information I shared is finally having some influence on a very good friend of mine who has endometriosis. She cut way back on wheat--eliminating bread, for example--and started eating plenty of fat-rich avocado. She doesn't like the idea of eating lots of animal fats, so I told her about plants that have similar fats, such as avacodos--they are not quite as good as wild or pasture-fed animal fats, in my experience, but far better than pro-inflammatory cooked high-carb, low-fat, grain-heavy diets. Her symptoms are markedly reduced. Her diet is still far from perfect, but most people will never attain dietary "perfection," if that is even possible.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dictate diet to her. I tell her what has worked for me and others I know of and share tidbits of research I come across now and then and suggested she listen to what her body tells her. She noted that when she cut back on wheat her bloating improved quickly, and when she added avocado her symptoms improved further, such as reduced pain.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 02, 2009, 11:51:20 am
That's great. Phil.  She may want to try raw olives, virgin coconut oil, or raw palm oil.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 04, 2009, 01:17:04 am
Thanks.

I've read how wolves and dogs and some people here drink lots of water after eating meat. I don't seem to get the same signal to drink lots of water and I'm wondering if there's a problem with my body's signals. Should be forcing myself to drink more water?

I do drink more water when I've eaten a small excess of fat and my saliva becomes slightly sweetened by the resulting ketones (too much ketones makes water taste sickeningly sweet). Could this mean some ketone production is actually a good thing?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on October 04, 2009, 05:13:57 am
Should I be forcing myself to drink more water?

I do drink more water when I've eaten a small excess of fat and my saliva becomes slightly sweetened by the resulting ketones (too much ketones makes water taste sickeningly sweet). Could this mean some ketone production is actually a good thing?

No! Force not the body - it knows what it is doing, even if we don't, and is never wrong.

I drank lots of water when I ate cooked meat, and drink some after eating pemmican/jerky, but raw "fresh" meat has almost all the water we need. And there is the word of A. Vonderplanitz and Dr. Bernarr (healself.org).

I've never had sweet saliva. Maybe because you are of the lucky who get the right fat, or carry a different burden of pollutants.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 04, 2009, 09:28:18 am
Thanks for the info, William. I think the sweet saliva is from ketones, because when I get it I also test positive on the keto sticks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 06, 2009, 09:02:25 am
I didn't get much sleep Saturday night, yet I only yawned twice the whole next day--and very brief, small yawns at that. Even when I started to nod off during the day I didn't yawn. This is unheard of for me. Normally I would be making frequent, big, gaping yawns the next day. I also noticed that when other people yawn I no longer get that "contagious" yawn that people laugh about, which used to be unavoidable for me, even if I tried to stifle it. This minimal yawning phenomenon is completely unexpected. I've never experienced it before or heard of it. It's interesting that others report the same thing. I seem to recall lions yawning gapingly, but I don't recall if they were wild or zoo animals. Strangely, I also felt energetic and could walk and run nearly as fast as when well rested, despite being dog tired. It's curious. For those here who are yawning much less, what foods do you eat and in what general proportions?

My spine has straightened enough now that my left arm and shoulder are nearly as flexible as my right, for the first time since I was a teenager, and there is a bit more strength in my left arm. A chiropractor had explained to me that the left arm weakness was due to my curved spine pinching off some nerve connections and reducing or preventing their signals from getting through to my left side (I have a weak left leg and ankle too--although the ankle has gradually been strengthening over the past several years too). He used to demonstrate this by testing my left arm strength, then giving me an adjustment, and then testing my left arm strength again--it would always increase after an adjustment. The adjustments didn't last long, unfortunately, but now I've been making my own, longer-lasting adjustments through dietary change.

When I was around 19 or 20 I asked a physician if there was anything I could do for my increasing curvature short of surgery and if chiropractic helps. He said there is absolutely no way to straighten a curved spine short of surgery, unless I wanted to "abandon all faith in medical science." The fact that he said with an arrogant and derisive tone and didn't provide any further explanation or indication of the slightest interest in seeking out other possibilities helped inspire me to try to prove him wrong. Increasingly, it's looking like I finally am in the process of doing so, though I don't know how straight my spine will get.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 06, 2009, 10:08:41 am
Phil, you might want to take a look at this video from Esther Gokhale--www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yYJ4hEYudE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yYJ4hEYudE)

This, plus the Alexander Technique and Neurocranial Restructuring, have really, really helped my flexibility, strength, and general well-being.  I recommend all of them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 06, 2009, 10:23:59 am
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm sure the posture work helped you quite a bit and I've tried some posture work myself in the past, as well as yoga, osteopathic physical therapy, chiropractic, accupuncture, accupressure, stretching, weight lifting, etc., and diet has been what has worked best for me. One reason I'm using only diet to treat my curvature is because if I combine it with other things, critics will claim it was the other things that straightened me, not the diet. So I hope that explains it somewhat and I do appreciate the help.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 08, 2009, 09:14:08 am
I forgot to mention that a few days ago I decided to try to finish off the refrigerated raw ground flax seeds I had left over from my plant-eating days. There was a substantial amount, so I added raw egg and a little bit of raw honey to make it palatable. The next morning I had a return of some dental pain, increased dry skin, and milk lower extremity pain. It's amazing how quickly carbs, even ones that don't seem that bad, bring back a return of symptoms for me. I'm guessing that the honey was the biggest culprit.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on October 08, 2009, 10:00:46 am
had any of those foods been in your diet recently? maybe eggs?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 08, 2009, 10:40:03 am
Yes, I'm still eating lots of raw eggs, so only the flaxseeds and local unheated, unfiltered honey were a change from my usual current diet. For whatever reason, I've experienced no negative effects from raw eggs, even when I've eaten 8 at once or a dozen in a day. They haven't been a big weight gainer for me, but I have gained a little, so maybe they've helped a bit. The best thing about them is they are a good fast food for me, which is useful for breakfast, and they provide a goodly amount of fat if I need it (though I usually have plenty of suet around), as well as lutein and zeaxanthin (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/nutrients-in-egg-yolks-help-prevent-macular-degeneration).

Then there's also the interesting changes in iris color that eggs promote which we have discussed here. That same Eades link provides this additional example:

Quote
Ethyl D, 10. October 2006, 6:19

When I changed to a low-carb diet a few years ago, within a week I noticed a change in my eye color from pale grey-blue to a much deeper turquoise blue. I assumed this change resulted from either the additional eggs or increased fat in my diet. Does this seem likely?
So that is another indicator that eggs are a key factor in the eye color change. I don't find Eades' explanation very compelling (I don't dismiss it, but I think the idea of increased nutrients causing reduction of melanin suggested in this forum makes more sense to me), but even if he's wrong, at least he didn't dismiss or ignore this lady's report.

There are also reports there of improved vision from low carbs and eggs. Dr. Eades' explanation is: "a decrease in swelling [ie, inflammation] of the lens with the carb reduction." Since carbs are connected to inflammation, especially modern refined carbs, this does sound plausible.

There are a lot of dire warnings on the net from people saying raw eggs will deplete your biotin or give you nasty bacterial infections, but when I tried to find the sources they turned out to be based more on urban legend than studies or specific actual cases, so I decided to try eating more eggs, with more than half of them being fertilized (just to be somewhat on the safe side, since fertilized eggs are not believed to deplete biotin). So far no noticeable problems.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 09, 2009, 09:50:53 am
Thanks again for the Esther Gokhale vid, cherimoya_kid. I like how her posture training was inspired by the best role models--traditional and ancient peoples and babies who display a natural posture.

Interesting that she first learned about this sort of stuff from the Institute Aplomb of Paris, France. Once again France is at the forefront of Paleo/Instinctive lifestyle and nutrition among the modern nations. Vive la France!

My dandruff is further reduced today. Almost no flakes fell on my eyeglasses (they used to get covered in them by the end of the day).

On the down side, I was lambasted yet again today by a good friend for eating raw Paleo. She interrogated me about what I was eating and acted as if it was the first time I had told her, despite telling her several times before that I was eating this way. I guess the bright side of it is that insults from my friends may help gird me against the worse insults that are likely to come in the future from my adversaries. This WOE challenges much of the modern way of life, so if it gets noticed above the daily noise it will generate a harsh reaction.

Raw grassfed ground beef is beginning to taste really good to me, especially when eaten with the suet. It's a good development, because now I don't have to pay more for bison and venison to eat meats I really love.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: invisible on October 09, 2009, 12:28:54 pm
I found I was really thirsty after eating if I was eating too much protein and not enough fat. 80% fat = no thirst.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on October 09, 2009, 04:59:32 pm

Raw grassfed ground beef is beginning to taste really good to me, especially when eaten with the suet. It's a good development, because now I don't have to pay more for bison and venison to eat meats I really love.

That's good news. How long have you been eating raw meats? The taste-change usually takes c.8-12 months of eating largely raw.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 09, 2009, 11:34:47 pm
Thanks again for the Esther Gokhale vid, cherimoya_kid. I like how her posture training was inspired by the best role models--traditional and ancient peoples and babies who display a natural posture.


Indeed.  It makes a good counterpoint to the Alexander work, as well as Trager Work.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 10, 2009, 06:42:12 am
That's good news. How long have you been eating raw meats? The taste-change usually takes c.8-12 months of eating largely raw.
Thanks. I had read people here, like Lex, claiming it took quite a while to come to enjoy raw grassfed beef, so I was surprised, because I've only been eating the raw ground grassfed beef for a couple of months. Of course, I was eating some low-heated jerky, raw eggs and VLC before that for several months. Plus, raw venison sausage tasted good to me the second or third time I tried it and raw ground venison tasted very good to me the first time I tried it. I think that the only reason the raw venison sausage tasted only OK the first time I tried it was that it was overly spiced. It's as if I was made for this diet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: unthink on October 11, 2009, 12:24:53 am
You might want to look in to structural bodywork, structural integration as well. Combined with proper pilates or other things already mentioned, its definitely  possible to get some proper permanent change. Don´t ask the doctor as they live in a obsolete mould, when it comes to these things.  As structural bodyworker I see the change in people everyday.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: DeadRamones on October 11, 2009, 12:52:35 am
In The Warrior Diet they explain that, feeling more thirsty than hungry(while eating) is a sign that your body is satisfied & suggest to stop eating at that point. I've tried it. Seems to help with that bloated feeling you get after eating big meals. I haven't done it long term to really come with a better conclusion though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 11, 2009, 01:39:11 am
I found I was really thirsty after eating if I was eating too much protein and not enough fat. 80% fat = no thirst.
I actually desire to drink more water when I've eaten more fat, not less, as a bit too much fat makes produces some ketones that make the water taste slightly sweet and more enjoyable. However, too much fat makes it taste too sweet. I don't have a scale to measure my ratios, so I eat lots of fat, but cut back a bit if my saliva starts getting overly sweet. It's my current natural signal to go easier on the fats.

In The Warrior Diet they explain that, feeling more thirsty than hungry(while eating) is a sign that your body is satisfied & suggest to stop eating at that point. I've tried it. Seems to help with that bloated feeling you get after eating big meals. I haven't done it long term to really come with a better conclusion though.
I don't get bloated regardless of how much I eat--not even from 2 lbs of meat and fat at a single extended sitting. I also don't get thirsty much, but I suspect that I should be drinking more water, given the reports of others and given people's reports here about wild carnivores drinking lots of water after eating. I think some natural signal may not be functioning fully in my system, though it's just speculation at this point.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 13, 2009, 09:45:43 am
My dandruff has diminished further. There were just a couple of teeny flakes on my eyeglasses today. When I scratch my head to check for flakes there are far fewer and they are tinier.

My hair loss has also slowed down further. Recently there have only been a couple hairs coming off on my comb each day instead of half a dozen or more.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on October 13, 2009, 01:43:22 pm
  Using baking soda for shampoo  ( a tablespoon mixed with water and applied to your scalp and left in place for about 5-10 minutes, then massaging it and rinsing very well with warm water) will take care of the dandruff/fungus and leave the sebum glands clean and open, thus preventing the hair follicles from getting choked from inflamed sebum glands.  Have personally only used baking soda for shampoo for  almost twenty years.  It works.  Also raw egg yolks, the healthy green and bug fed kind, will also save your hair.  Also have done this for about twenty years..   But you probably already eat yolks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 13, 2009, 10:05:56 pm
Thanks, I did try using baking soda and didn't care for it. It left my hair matted and feeling unclean and looking nasty and I didn't notice any decrease in hair loss. I have, however, noticed decrease in hair loss the longer I stick with grassfed raw meat and suet. Maybe I just need to give baking soda more time or something? Maybe I can cut my hair real short so it's not as noticeable how bad it looks, until my hair gets used to the baking soda? I also found it inconvenient and difficult to use, probably due to inexperience. I tried mixing varying amounts of water to get a good consistency, but none of the mixes seemed to work well. Can you give more details on how to use it: What container do you keep it in? How much water do you mix in? etc.

I'll try to remember to try the eggs. What do I do, whip an egg yolk in a bowl and then take the bowl into the tub with me, then dump it on my head and rub it in? Then turn on the shower? What do you mean about green egg yolk? One that has been left out in the open air for a certain time to rot?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on October 14, 2009, 01:07:36 am
What do you mean about green egg yolk? One that has been left out in the open air for a certain time to rot?
He was referring to a chicken that fed on greens and bugs. Just worded kind of funny. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 15, 2009, 08:51:18 am
I ate a big portion of raw chicken liver for the first time (I had only sampled it in the past) and I got quite a good euphoria response from it. I suspect there may be a nutrient in liver that I'm a bit low on.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on October 15, 2009, 11:06:31 am
  HI,  I had to laugh about the green egg...  No,  I meant that the chickens eat green food all day along with bugs.  Pretty hard to find these days.    I have never put the yolk on my head/hair.     You may have hard water, which makes it hard to rinse all the baking soda out of the hair.  Yes,  having short hair is easier to wash and keep looking ok with baking soda.  It probably won't look as shiny as commercial shampoos and conditioners.  I use between a teaspoon and a tablespoon.  Try wetting hair real good, then take a teaspoon of bs and spread it out on your hands and then rub it into your hair.  The focus should be in getting it down to the scalp level.  you can take a little more water into your hands and apply that to your head.  Then gently work on your scalp, rubbing it into your scalp.  Let it sit for around five or ten minutes while you shower or whatever.  Then before rinsing it off, massage some more.   Bs has the ability to dissolve not only the oils but the crud in you scalp.  Then while massaging, rinse very well with just warm water.  Too warm, and you'll lose too much natural oils from your hair.  That is why  I have gone down to a teaspoon or table spoon.  Too much strips your natural oils.  I also brush my hair,  short hair, with a bristle brush twice a day.  YOu have to get down to the scalp and stimulate it along with exfoliating it with the bristles.  I also massage my scalp first thing in the morning with my finger tips before getting out of bed.  I think a lot of it is getting blood flowing/nutrients.    It's really not that hard to do once you've got it.  I use a tupper ware plastic container with lid for the bs.     It also is amazing to use it in replacing soap for your arm pits.  Let it sit in their for several minutes too.  Really works, hardly ever smell.  I haven' had atheletes foot, but am believing soaking feet in high concentrations of bs would chase it away.  Have you seen the Italian oncologist's work who treats cancer with bs.  He believes all cancers are clusters forms of cancer, and the the high ph of bs dissolves the micro clusters of cancer/fungus.     Let me know if anything needs further clarification.  I at one time was thinking about coming out with a hair loss shampoo based on bs, but realized it' far to easy to copy...
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 16, 2009, 07:06:28 am
  HI,  I had to laugh about the green egg... 
Yeah, made me think of Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham. ;)

Yes, we do have very hard water here in Vermont, generally, so I probably do have it here at my apartment.

Ah, so you eat the eggs, yes? Me too. I eat about 4 or more raw fertilized or omega 3 eggs a day, and sometimes quail or duck eggs.

Five or ten minute showers?  :o I usually take navy showers--more like 3 - 5 minutes total. I don't get too dirty doing office work and I don't sweat much, especially during the winters, so longer would be a waste of water, in my view. Do you mean just to start with, until my hair adjusts? What do you mean by crud in the scalp, dandruff?

Quote
I also brush my hair,  short hair, with a bristle brush twice a day.  YOu have to get down to the scalp and stimulate it along with exfoliating it with the bristles. 

LOL I don't have enough hair to brush. :D

I am noticing quite a slowdown in hair loss on raw carnivore. It's nearly to the point of stopping, as Lex, Charles and numerous other carnivores/ZCers have reported.

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 17, 2009, 03:47:24 am
On standard cooked Paleo and VLC raw Paleo I took cod liver oil or fish oil, magnesium, potassium and zinc supplements. I took the cod liver for vitamin D (and other benefits), as I don't get a lot of sunshine, and I took the others because I found they were effective in treating various symptoms without side effects (whereas the prescriptions I had been given DID cause side effects, including the muscle cramps that necessitated me taking the potassium supplements to begin with).

Several weeks after I went raw carnivore, I found that my acne and muscle cramps diminished to the point where I no longer needed zinc or potassium supplements. However, I just started taking some magnesium again because my fecal output decreased to about 1/3 of what it was, just like Lex said it would, and I have started to get some dry/hard constipation again (although not as bad as prior to carnivore and without the mucus, cramps, reactive diarrhea and other associated problems I had while still eating plants). I figured it also might further improve my dental health.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 23, 2009, 08:36:36 am
I increased my fat intake to help keep things flowing in the GI tract and I do have moderate urinary ketones (around 40 mg/dl), but noticed I haven't been getting the usual result of sweet saliva. That may take a somewhat higher level of ketones, I guess.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 28, 2009, 09:19:50 am
Quote
no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked for them. There are too many social restrictions against raw-foodism for there to be any other reason.*tylerdurden*
So true in my case that I decided to add it to my profile for the time being, although I think most of the social restrictions are against raw meats rather than raw plants.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 02, 2009, 07:23:55 am
Even increasing my fat levels and ketones higher didn't give me the sweet saliva, and Lex doesn't get it at very high ketone levels, so I think it was a temporary phenomenon due to my not being fully adapted at the time.

I may be moving in the near future and my local healthstore usually has grassfed ground beef and mostly grassfed ground bison and grassfed suet in stock at prices not much more than Slankers (the grassfed suet is actually about half the price locally, though the meat is more expensive), so I think I'll stick with using them for the near future. 85% of calories as fat seems like a good level for me and around 2500 total calories per day, which should help me gain weight even if I get more active.

Here's a sample daily menu, have I got the figures right?

Moderately active
159 lbs         
2560 calories/day according to http://nutrition.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Daily-Metabolism

breakfast/lunch   
1/4 lb   bison 164 calories   
.09 lb   GF beef suet   335 cals.
tap water   
         
Supper   
1 lb           bison   656 calories
.35 lb   GF beef suet   1341 cals.
2 oz         chicken liver or high meat 64 cals.
nonsparkling mineral water
         
Occasional snacks/dessert/variety:
beef jerky with tallow      
occasional raw eggs, venison, sashimi, wild clams, etc.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: phatdave on November 02, 2009, 09:20:15 am
That sounds FAN-TASTIC. Now I am jealous of you Paleophil  :)

And how are you feeling on such a delicious diet? I think my reaction is to the word 'Bison' (which I have never tried) and 'wild clams'!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on November 02, 2009, 09:38:42 am
Here's a sample daily menu, have I got the figures right?

Moderately active
159 lbs         
2560 calories/day according to http://nutrition.bizcalcs.com/Calculator.asp?Calc=Daily-Metabolism

breakfast/lunch   
1/4 lb   bison 164 calories   
.09 lb   GF beef suet   335 cals.
tap water   
         
Supper   
1 lb           bison   656 calories
.35 lb   GF beef suet   1341 cals.
2 oz         chicken liver or high meat 64 cals.
nonsparkling mineral water
         
Occasional snacks/dessert/variety:
beef jerky with tallow      
occasional raw eggs, venison, sashimi, wild clams, etc.

    Thank you.  Cool seeing a day's menu.  I think of going ZC, but this makes me feel like I have a better picture of what I may eat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 02, 2009, 10:51:47 am
I'm feeling great on this diet thanks. Best diet I've tried yet. I do wish venison was still available now and then, though it's easier on my wallet when it's not :D (though it's only a buck a pound more than the bison, surprisingly).

I love the wild clams, though I've been too chicken to try them raw yet and they are really tiny, so they're more of a snack to go with my ground bison than a meal.

I wouldn't be surprised if I screwed up the numbers somewhere. If so I hope a math wiz like Lex helps me fix them. :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: phatdave on November 02, 2009, 07:18:05 pm
I was scared to eat scallops uncooked but they were absolutely delicious. It makes a huge difference how fresh. I would love to get a steady supply of venison too, purely because I fantasize about its paleo-ness. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 02, 2009, 08:21:49 pm
I just like its tastiness. :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 07, 2009, 09:36:34 am
Recently I had my first bought of diarrhea since adopting RPD. I had eaten more raw liver than ever before the night before, along with a little bit of raw beef heart. That was the only change from my usual routine. I also had a mild feeling of malaise. The mild malaise started in the morning around 4 am. The diarrhea started a few hours later and was cleaned out by mid-day. The malaise and resulting weakness and slight dizziness cleared up when I felt like eating again that evening and ate my usual raw ground bison and suet with mineral water.

The next morning I was back to my usual feeling of well-being. That night I checked the liver and found that it now smelled bad (it hadn't when I ate some of it). I threw it out rather than test it. I did try some more raw beef heart without problem. The liver container was a tightly-sealed plastic container. I suspect that perhaps there was some pathogenic anaerobic bacteria in it (like salmonella). So the next time I bought liver I transferred it to a glass container that doesn't seem quite as tightly sealed, in case bad bacteria was the problem. Alternatively, perhaps the issue was I just wasn't used to raw liver. On the bright side, while it didn't feel good for 1/2 a day, it was relatively mild. So if that's the worst that bad bacteria can throw at me, I can live with that on occasion. I hope it doesn't get worse than that, though. My guess is that as my health improves over time, I'll actually become less sensitive to bad bacteria.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on November 07, 2009, 05:19:46 pm
It could be due to bad bacteria or something else. I once did an experiment, eating just raw liver every alternate week, and, after a while, I started getting diarrhea/loose stools quite often. My reading on this is that my body had eventually  gotten enough of the necessary nutrients from raw liver, and decided not to absorb them properly any longer, so that I subsequently got diarrhea/poor absorption from further raw liver-consumption. At any rate, I don't do badly on raw or aged, raw liver any more as long as I minimise the amounts taken in every so often.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 07, 2009, 11:15:11 pm
It was only the third time I had tried raw liver, I think, so I don't think my reaction came from long-term overeating of liver, and it wasn't a huge serving, probably only about 3-4 oz. or so, but it was more than my first tries of raw liver (which were just a few tiny chunks). Maybe my body just needs time to adjust to such a nutrient-rich food?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on November 08, 2009, 04:50:38 am
I feel that our bodies (AKA immune system) are wiser than we, and don't need to be bullied into accepting stuff that is rejected.
Best to show some respect for that wisdom. IMHO
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 10, 2009, 08:42:39 pm
I've been getting another health benefit--my skin used to be too sensitive and too easily cut to use a safety razor, but now I find it has strengthened enough that I can use a safety razor again for the first time in over a decade.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on November 10, 2009, 08:59:04 pm
Is shaving paleo?    :D  (How to do the horned imp icon?)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on November 10, 2009, 11:04:27 pm
this one -d is - and d

this one is >D > and D

is that what you meant?

I suppose paleo people could have sharpened a stone.

I'm glad you're able to shave more easily again, that's wonderful!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 11, 2009, 07:43:50 am
Thanks.

I read somewhere that some Stone Agers shaved by plucking or by using flint blades. Ouch!  :o

I ate some meat that hadn't fully defrosted yesterday and found I liked it better that way. Maybe it was just because of the variety, though I have read that the Nenets generally prefer to eat their meat and fish frozen and that the Inuits sometimes eat frozen fish, though that could be just because they were raised on it.

Another health benefit to report: I've been noticing lately that I've been breathing yogically (in through the nose and out through the mouth) as my ordinary breathing when walking or running, whereas I used to do a lot of mouth breathing (and get a dry mouth as a result). I think it's because my sinus passages are much clearer and less swollen so it's much easier for me to breath through my nose now. Perhaps yogic breathing is just the natural way of breathing and is only special to moderners whose nasal passages are slightly too clogged/inflamed to do it without focusing on it? When I'm sitting down I tend to breath through the nose only.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on November 11, 2009, 10:12:17 am

Another health benefit to report: I've been noticing lately that I've been breathing yogically (in through the nose and out through the mouth) as my ordinary breathing when walking or running, whereas I used to do a lot of mouth breathing (and get a dry mouth as a result). I think it's because my sinus passages are much clearer and less swollen so it's much easier for me to breath through my nose now. Perhaps yogic breathing is just the natural way of breathing and is only special to moderners whose nasal passages are slightly too clogged/inflamed to do it without focusing on it? When I'm sitting down I tend to breath through the nose only.

Yes, indeed.  I found this happened for me as well, as soon as I went mostly/all raw.  I nearly always breathe only through my nose, except when doing heavy exercise.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 23, 2009, 02:42:46 am
I tried using a blender on my raw suet, but it just melted and clumped and clogged up the blender. I don't have room for both a food processor and meat grinder, so I think I will continue to chop my suet until I get a grinder, which I already want for grinding bones and meats. Buying a food processor just to grate suet does not appeal much to me at this time. Maybe some day when I have more room.

My ketones have been ranging from small to trace amounts--mostly trace. It seems like I'm becoming keto adapted after about 3.5 months eating raw carnivore.

My sister also noticed that my shoulders are less stooped and my back straighter. However, she is very frightened of bacteria and believes that the "high" effect of "high meat" is a bad sign, akin to psychoactive drugs, with their negative side effects when abused. I tried to explain that this high is reportedly different--a healthy well-being sort of high, but she was not convinced. I have not yet experienced it myself anyway, so I pursued the question no further.

Two days ago I started taking Dr. Ron's bone meal, fermented cod liver oil and Doc's Best multi for the calcium, magnesium, A, D3 and K2, which are supposed to have a synergistic benefit on dental health and bone density.

I picked up half my shipment of red deer ground meat and heart that came from a local farm and tried some of both yesterday. I ate it cooked at my sister's (I told my brother-in-law he doesn't have to cook my portion when I visit, but he just laughed) and then tried the ground meat raw at home. I find the heart tastes better than beef heart--more tender, less crunchy and rubbery--but the meat doesn't taste as good as ground venison sold at my local health food market. It's too bland for my tastes.

Yet another Paleo-type diet book has come out: The Jungle Effect: Healthiest Diets from Around the World--Why They Work and How to Make Them Work for You by Daphne Miller. Based on one review it apparently makes an unfortunate recommendation for low-fat. There is quite a bandwagon now of people writing Paleo-type diet books and articles. The raw aspect of RPD is still not generating many books.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on November 23, 2009, 10:46:06 am
Hi, Phil, Katelyn from ZIOH. Just wanted to let you know I'm reading with interest  :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 23, 2009, 10:53:55 am
Thanks Katelyn.

Hooray! I have one supporter. LOL

Fair warning: I'm a contrarian, so I usually end up disagreeing with pretty much everyone, ;) though I try to be polite about it. If too many people start agreeing with me, I get suspicious and think I must have got something wrong. :D

Be sure to read Lex's journal too, if you haven't yet, as his is better than mine and heavily influenced me--even though he goes out of his way to say that he's not advocating his WOE for anyone else--which is part of why I like it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 26, 2009, 07:07:48 am
The pitting, grooves, and rough edges in my teeth, from past diet (possibly acidic and carby plant foods like fruits and fruit juices--because I've noticed that pitting is reported fairly commonly by fruit-heavy vegans/vegetarians on the Web and by one in my personal life) and past nighttime grinding, is almost completely smooth now from my raw carnivore diet. I never knew teeth had this level of regenerative power. Who else here has experienced this?

The gum cream appears to have a minor side effect of some teeth staining, but it seems to be working well to keep my teeth feeling polished.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 30, 2009, 10:26:01 am
I brought beef jerky and pemmican to the Thanksgiving meal, initially just for myself, in case there wasn't enough food there for me to eat, and because I'm not fond of turkey due to it being overly-lean and usually rather dry--which it was--but of course everyone lied and said how great it was. How ironic that the primary food at the first Indian/pilgrim Thanksgiving was lovely venison. When I got there I felt it would be strange to eat my own foods on my own and possibly insulting to the host/chef, so I instead put it out as my contribution to the pre-meal snacks. I didn't expect anyone to eat it, but this way I could snack on it without being too obvious, and I also figured it would be a good test to see if jerky will work at my upcoming employee Christmas pot luck.

Three people tried the jerky and one tried the pemmican. One seemed to like the jerky but the other two said they prefer it with spices. The one who tried the pemmican didn't like it at all and two people thought it looked unappetizing, even when cut up and put in a nice serving bowl.

I'm thinking I'll try spiced jerky for the pot luck, though I've never cared that much for spiced versions I've made in the past. What spices do you folks recommend? Have you ever shared spiced jerky and had multiple people like it?

The host made a big to-do about what foods I couldn't eat, which was considerate but embarrassing.

It's interesting that I found brown turkey meat to be tastier than white, because of the higher fat content and moistness. When I was a kid I preferred brown meat--especially the legs of chicken and turkey (probably in part because the legs were my allotted pieces that I was used to). Then I came to prefer white meat and now I'm back to brown meat again.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 04, 2009, 09:36:54 pm
PaleoPhil, may I ask you how long you have been eating raw meat & fat + raw eggs (paleo?)? Do you eat the whole egg and can you compair this between eating cooked egg (and cooked meat)? Other members on the zerocarb forum do not do well with cooked eggs / cream / cheese; a few like Jeff (he does not drink much more than coffee and "some red w.) seem to eat it all - raw or cooked and don't "notice" a thing (never mention poo, gas, bloat).

I still do not "get" the picture - if one is to eat protein (raw or cooked) and fat (raw or cooked) and drink "more water than you feel you need" then how can things not get runny. Delfuego called his discharge runny and find this "normal" but I don't!

Some times I can get on with it but so many people seem to have a different result (most call it detox) of "this healthy diet".

Sorry, but do you do much sport; this must change the picture again...

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 05, 2009, 07:13:20 am
PaleoPhil, may I ask you how long you have been eating raw meat & fat + raw eggs (paleo?)? Do you eat the whole egg and can you compair this between eating cooked egg (and cooked meat)?
I've been raw carnivore with occasional cheating for almost 4 months now, and partly raw VLC for a while before that.

Yes, I eat lots of whole raw fertilized chicken eggs from a local farm that are sold in the healthfood market, and some quail eggs and once in a while duck eggs. Since quail eggs are wee little things I usually eat a whole package at one go, but rarely buy more than one package per week because they're pricy. Raw eggs taste sweeter, juicier and more flavorful to me than cooked, though I also like the taste of lightly cooked eggs. My least favorite is overdone hardboiled eggs, which I occasionally eat at the cafeteria with cooked bison when I've run out of food at work and am too hungry to wait till I get home--I add olive oil and mix them with the bison to make them palatable.

I find I add weight and feel stronger and more energetic when I eat 2 or 3 large meals a day. I think it's because of my history of mineral deficiencies. Even now if I go too long without red meat I start getting mild potassium (cramping) and probably magnesium (vertigo--I think I've finally figured out that magnesium deficiency was causing my vertigo when I tilted my head too fast--which improved when I went raw carnivore and it has been diminishing to rarely noticeable any more) deficiencies again. Luckily I've been keeping well stocked with raw meat lately and my officemate doesn't mind me eating it (and my other office mate who probably would mind rarely uses the office any more), so I've been able to maintain a fully raw diet most of the time and have been able to eat fully raw meat with suet melted at around 80 degrees F at work instead of jerky with heated 200F tallow.

Quote
Other members on the zerocarb forum do not do well with cooked eggs / cream / cheese; a few like Jeff (he does not drink much more than coffee and "some red w.) seem to eat it all - raw or cooked and don't "notice" a thing (never mention poo, gas, bloat).
I find cooked eggs harder to digest, but I don't get as much of the sulphur burps from them as I used to, so I think my digestion is continuing to improve. I prefer raw eggs. It digests very easily and I can't even tell that I've eaten anything, except that I become less hungry. I also like the fact that raw eggs don't make a lot of mess like scrambled eggs do. I like the fattiness of egg yolks. If I run out of suet I eat more eggs until I get more suet.

Quote
I still do not "get" the picture - if one is to eat protein (raw or cooked) and fat (raw or cooked) and drink "more water than you feel you need" then how can things not get runny. Delfuego called his discharge runny and find this "normal" but I don't!
Perhaps his discharge may be runny because he's digesting a high percentage of the meat, which is his claim, though I'm not sure. We'll know better the longer more people have been on ZC, RAF and raw carnivore.

I tend much more to constipation than runny bowels, probably because of my history of magnesium deficiency--probably largely from my gluten intolerance. I've had to cut back on bone meal because I think the calcium has been constipating me. I haven't had any diarrhea on raw carnivore except for one morning after I ate raw liver and it apparently affected me for some reason, though it hasn't done that again since (except for getting the same brief stomach upset and mild malaise the next day after eating raw liver another time, but without the diarrhea).

High meat hasn't had any noticeable effect at all on my bowels so far, but this is not particularly surprising, since I can drink an 8 oz glass of flaxseed oil or consume a whole box of probiotic supplements without it having any effect whatsoever on my bowels, whereas other people report getting the runs on much less. What has surprised me a little is I haven't gotten any "high" feeling (mild euphoria) at all from up to 4 or 5 small chunks of high muscle meat or heart, but I do from a couple teaspoons of ground red grassfed meat. So I get a bit of euphoria during and after most meals, since I eat ground red grassfed meat a lot.

Quote
Some times I can get on with it but so many people seem to have a different result (most call it detox) of "this healthy diet".
I've only had the two brief episodes of what some might call detox and I'm not sure what caused them (though I did have raw liver the day before on both occasions--but it hasn't caused the problem other times).

Quote
Sorry, but do you do much sport; this must change the picture again...

Nicola
Not really, though I walk and briefly sprint to and from work (about half a mile) and walk up and down 3 flights of stairs at work and sometimes walk downtown (which involves going down and then back up a large, steep hill). I prefer incorporating most of my exercise into my routine rather than running around in circles on a track or on a treadmill or driving through traffic to a gym to work out (running tracks and gyms always seemed artificial and strange to me, even before I went Paleo, though I did try it myself at various times from early on, because my father was a physical education professor, coach and athletic director). I bought some snowshoes, so I plan on doing some snowshoeing once we get some snow on the ground.

I used to mostly prefer running around in the woods as a kid, so by taking up a Paleo diet and fishing in the summers and walking more than driving I've basically been returning to my childhood love of natural outdoor living (though I also liked to play basketball and jump around on a trampoline in the gym and play soccer and other games outdoors). I also do calisthenics similar to what others do here and occasional yoga. I'm good at walking and slow long distance running, but poor at sprinting because I've never had much muscle.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 05, 2009, 09:26:32 pm
Thanks for you kind words - everybody has a different story -[

Tom G. posted that he digests raw meat and fat with no problem (on one of the topics on this forum); on zerocarb he posted the following:

I've been trying to eat raw or rare beef as much as I can to see if there is an issue with uncooked meat. The undercooked crab was not part of my plan. I'm not comfortable eating raw chicken, pork, or fish.
post 84 http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2542&page=9

This is why we turn in surcels >:

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 06, 2009, 08:39:23 am
This is why we turn in surcels >:
Well, I wouldn't say I turn in circles, Nicola, but I like the cute grumpy face :).

I've been doing rather well on below 40C melted suet, raw ground meats, raw eggs, raw organ meats, raw seafood and mineral water. My main remaining issues have been a returned tendency toward the constipation I had on past diets after early resolution of it by raw carnivore (it's still improved; that is, it's not the full-blown IBS-C with D that it was in the past) and potential concerns given my history of calcium oxalate stones, both of which could be explained in part by my historical tendency toward magnesium deficiency symptoms. I could address both with magnesium supplementation, but that tends to be looked down on here and I'm doing a carnivore experiment right now, so I don't want to resort to plant-sources of magnesium right now.

I'd rather not have to wait for months for the bowel issues to resolve, like Lex apparently did. Poorly-absorbed magnesium oxide works pretty well for me for constipation, whereas magnesium citrate is supposed to be best for calcium oxalate stone prevention. Can anyone here suggest alternatives that might be less controversial here? Are there any acceptable magnesium supplements? I hate to give up what works for me just because it's controversial. The bone meal seems to be constipating me more, probably due to its high calcium content, and the high meats haven't been having any noticeable effect re: constipation or anything else. How much high meat does one have to eat for it to work to end constipation or give euphoria? I've tried up to 5 small chunks at a time so far. I might try raw liver again soon, which sometimes seems to get things moving, though it also seemed to trigger diarrhea once.

After Tom's comments, larrymagee wrote: "I ate only pemmican for 6 weeks. I had nausea and light colored stools for several weeks. These symptoms went away but I still had burping issues up until the end. I think it just takes a while for the body to adapt."

So, much of Larry's problems with pemmican went away after 6 weeks. Luckily, I haven't had any problems at all from my raw pemmican. I digest it extremely easily and don't get any noticeable fat in my stools or discoloration of stools or even burping (I do get sometimes get burping from drinking water--perhaps I'm accidentally gulping down some air with it at times). Maybe it's because I heat my jerky and suet so low or maybe I've adapted well to digesting fats? I still have trouble chewing, swallowing and keeping down straight unmelted raw suet because of the connective tissue and the "musty" flavor. I'm hoping that once I have a heavy duty grinder and grind raw suet together with meat like Lex does, it will make it easier for me to eat without needing to use (below 40C) melting.

I tried some pemmican made by one of the folks at the ZC forum and it tasted burnt to me, probably because I heat both my jerky and suet at very low temps. To some of them, my pemmican might taste undercooked.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on December 06, 2009, 10:07:41 am
don't know if you've seen my posts regarding mg. in ionic form from the great salt lake,  from Trace mins.  Been using them for around three years now.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 06, 2009, 03:45:03 pm
Well I got this PM from Tom (I don't like to hide answers that all help to the picture we are looking for - and may never find -X)

Hi Nicola. Most of the time I eat beef raw. If we go out for supper, it will be rare. From what I've read, it's reasonably safe to do so. I'm really not sure about other meats. Probably chicken would be ok. I don't know. It's also odd that the one time I eat some undercooked, or raw crab, I had a big problem.
 
  Pemmican for some reason, or a combination of factors causes indigestion for me. I try various different things for a few days, switch it, and compare.
 
  Since I believe pemmican is just a dehydrated steak, I should be able to digest it the same as any raw chunk of beef. What I believe we should be eating, and what actually agrees with my stomach are different things.
 
  If it sounds confusing to you, that is because it is confusing to me as well. In order for something to be true, it must be able to be proven correct. If eating raw is the natural way to eat, it should be able to be done with no problems. The more raw I try to eat, the more problems I have. But, I eat pemmican at the same time as I eat raw. Maybe that's the problem. There are lots of variables.
 
  I post my thoughts to try and find answers that may not really exist. If you are worried, please don't be. When I decide that something is not right, I will change it. All I'm doing right now is trying to find consistancy with what makes sense, to what actually works


So now it seems that only Lex has "no problems" and a normal bowel movement (every day?). I know of other people taking magnesium but to me a healthy diet should not need supplements? I don't see the mineral part in bone meal; I look at it as extra volume in the intestines. Larry has runny stools too so I would not think that he has found "the answer".

With not much movement you may be "missing" some runny stools :P

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 06, 2009, 11:23:43 pm
I think Tom is right that one needs to find out what works best for oneself. Yes, much of this will probably remain a mystery always. I see science as more of a serious of endless questions than a bunch of final answers. It's not very satisfying, comforting, or practical, I know, so I make my best guesses based upon the available info and try out what seem to be the most likely options.

I've always been prone to constipation, and it had developed into IBS-C with D, so it's actually much improved now. It had even seemed to completely resolve for several weeks for the first time ever during the early period of raw carnivore. However, the reduction in fecal output due ironically to an improvement in my digestion of meat has resulted in a tendency toward constipation again. Lex reported that the body eventually adjusts, but it's an unpleasant transition and I suspect my transition is a bit worse than his was, given my history of Mg deficiency and GI issues. So I'm going back to taking some Mg supplementation again and cutting out the bone meal (which I was trying for dental health) for now.

What I do may not work for you, as your system is likely different from mine. So you may want to keep trying to find what works for you, and don't worry too much if you don't hit it right immediately. It took me about 20 years to figure out that diet was underlying my chronic health issues and then it took about another 5 years to figure out that raw carnivore worked better for me than standard Paleo, and I'm sure there's still a lot I have left to learn.

People's problems with dietary experiments can sometimes be more instructive than their successes. When I experimented with vegetarianism, I can remember being surprised at how ornery and dogmatic a number of the vegetarians seemed to be and at how some of them were taking megadoses of many vitamin supplements. I thought to myself, if vegetarianism supposedly makes you a more peaceful, healthier person, then why do these folks seem so nasty and have to take so many supplements? My own need to take supplements has decreased substantially since starting raw carnivore, so I see that as a positive sign that it's working for me. Time will tell I guess. As I've said before, I actually want to eventually add some foods back into my diet, but I'm trying to keep the variables at a minimum right now.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on December 07, 2009, 01:45:29 am
Poorly-absorbed magnesium oxide works pretty well for me for constipation, whereas magnesium citrate is supposed to be best for calcium oxalate stone prevention. Can anyone here suggest alternatives that might be less controversial here? Are there any acceptable magnesium supplements?

After years of experimenting by thousands of people. those with heart arrhythmia found that the best absorbed and tolerated form of magnesium is that sold as "Chelazome" (TM) , an amino acid chelate, available here:
http://www.abacohealth.com/index.php/prodid/TRO030 and elsewhere, as long as it is Albion Process it's OK.

There should be enough Mg in the raw meat, so either you are somehow blocking absorption or you are not yet perfect.


Quote
After Tom's comments, larrymagee wrote: "I ate only pemmican for 6 weeks. I had nausea and light colored stools for several weeks. These symptoms went away but I still had burping issues up until the end. I think it just takes a while for the body to adapt."

I had been on pemmican only for three months, and well pleased with the splendidly formed turds which were produced regularly though not often (every 3 to 5 days). Then I stupidly ate Christmas dinner, had a stroke, ate nothing for two days, and subsequently noticed pale turds for maybe 10 weeks. (no stools for me - always thought excreting the legs would be painful  ;) )
So the paleness indicates a healing/detox reaction AFAIK. No burping, but I don't anyway, my reaction is and has been musical tummy/melodious gut.

Adaptation looks like a good bet.



 
Quote
To some of them, my pemmican might taste undercooked.


Pemmican made with tallow rendered at  170-200°F  doesn't really taste cooked. I think that taste may be of unfiltered connective tissue or the solids that escaped filtering.  I assume that the solids are proteins, and of course grossly overheated, so poisonous to me.

The reason for rendering at that temp is fear of the fat becoming rancid. If you don't make it for long term storage, that reason does not apply.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 07, 2009, 03:56:10 am
There should be enough Mg in the raw meat, so either you are somehow blocking absorption or you are not yet perfect.
Yes, I think it's the latter, as my Mg deficiency symptoms are much reduced over what they used to be. Other than the constipation I only get vertigo, and even that I only appear to get when I've gone nearly a day or longer without eating red meat. My first chronic vertigo developed and got pretty bad when I followed my GI doc's advice and took an artificial Px fiber supplement that it turns out causes electrolyte deficiencies (particularly potassium and Mg for me). Luckily, these deficiencies have been improving dramatically on raw carnivore (even VLC was insufficient), but I still appear to have a little ways to go--and the fecal volume reduction appears to have exacerbated things a bit for the moment (and possibly the bone meal also).

I have responded very well to raw pemmican myself, which was a surprise to me, because I had a lifetime of not liking fat, not digesting it very well and getting gas from fatty meats like sausages--even when they were not heavily spiced.

Quote
Pemmican made with tallow rendered at  170-200°F  doesn't really taste cooked. I think that taste may be of unfiltered connective tissue or the solids that escaped filtering.  I assume that the solids are proteins, and of course grossly overheated, so poisonous to me.

The reason for rendering at that temp is fear of the fat becoming rancid. If you don't make it for long term storage, that reason does not apply.
I think she rendered her tallow at much higher temps than that (I was referring to my own usual past practice when I mentioned the 200F tallow) and likely dried her jerky at much higher temps than I do also. The tallow was well filtered, but the pemmican definitely tasted burnt to me. I think she prefers that taste because she also likes to eat her meats well done--and well done meats also taste a little burnt to me at this point. To each their own--I'm not complaining or criticizing, just explaining the differences.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 07, 2009, 08:36:09 pm
How do you know that you are constipated - I mean William talkes about 10 weeks; how the hell is that possible?

Perhaps the eggs are not a good thing every day (not paleo)? Perhaps eating more like Lex or Andrew would help you better? I wonder why Tyler sounds as if he never has problems (ex. for eating rice :D) - perhaps some see problems when they are not really "the problem"? Perhaps the-bear@thebear.org can tell you more about carnivores and rest...

On the zerocarb forum you wrote in Dan's journal that you are 54 years! I think you meant 45 years?

Nicola

The bear answer to me (I asked why many are having problems with a carivores diet / needing HCI, constipation, runny stooles...)

Ignore
others who complain- send them the rules.
 
A newborn baby can DIGEST MEAT, the only other food besides human
breast meat it can handle.  Meat is SO easy.
 
The answer to those who have 'problems' is:  STOP OBSESSING OVER YOUR FOOD.
 
Or go back to food you are comfortable with.

--
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 07, 2009, 11:01:38 pm
Have you read Danny's blog - it might be a help to learn from him, his problems and the answers (also from Lex, Delfuego...)

http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/12/6/one-meal-a-day-romanticism.html#comments

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on December 08, 2009, 02:58:07 am
How do you know that you are constipated - I mean William talks about 10 weeks; how the hell is that possible?

It is not possible. I take 3 to 5 days.
The 10 weeks was for something else.

Quote
I wonder why Tyler sounds as if he never has problems (ex. for eating rice :D) - perhaps some see problems when they are not really "the problem"? Perhaps the-bear@thebear.org can tell you more about carnivores and rest...

TD never has problems because he is perfect. Um, that is, except for his obsessions with tallow, and mercury in fish - there may be another, I forget (that's because I'm not perfect. Yet ;) )



Quote
The bear answer to me (I asked why many are having problems with a carivores diet / needing HCI, constipation, runny stooles...)

Ignore
others who complain- send them the rules.
 
A newborn baby can DIGEST MEAT, the only other food besides human
breast meat it can handle.  Meat is SO easy.
 
The answer to those who have 'problems' is:  STOP OBSESSING OVER YOUR FOOD.
 
Or go back to food you are comfortable with.

--


Bear gave you a good answer, except for the usual exception of the Unspeakable Forbidden Knowledge, to wit: fat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 08, 2009, 07:40:01 am
Perhaps the eggs are not a good thing every day (not paleo)? Perhaps eating more like Lex or Andrew would help you better? ....
Perhaps, but my experience has been that I do fine eating them. I've never had the negative symptoms from raw eggs that Tyler and others reported--even when I tried eating 8 at once (on top of 4 I had earlier that same day).

The only way you'll find out for sure is to find out what works for you. I can't tell you what to eat, because I don't know what you do best on.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 13, 2009, 09:47:28 pm
...On the zerocarb forum you wrote in Dan's journal that you are 54 years! I think you meant 45 years?

Nicola

The bear answer to me (I asked why many are having problems with a carivores diet / needing HCI, constipation, runny stooles...)
...
I found the post referencing age 54 and it is one of Phil H's, not mine (you can see it here: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2747&pid=167894#pid167894).

When you get the runs have you tried something calcium-rich like bone meal?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 13, 2009, 10:12:20 pm
I found the post referencing age 54 and it is one of Phil H's, not mine (you can see it here: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2747&pid=167894#pid167894).

When you get the runs have you tried something calcium-rich like bone meal?

Sorry, I thought of Phil H. when I was out swimming - I got you two mixed up!

I am a bit mad with this water in my bowel; it can only be all the meat and fat plus the water I am drinking; the muscle fat I ate around midday on Saturday plus the water I drank many hours after swimming and riding again made me feel kind of watery-sick at night and gave me more trouble today - only threw running and riding do I notice this. If we drink more water than the body can take up and only eat protein and fat...well some call this "normal" - even Delfuego (he has runny stools) has noticed a difference between muscle fat and suet.

Bone meal is only volume and I can not see paleo = bone meal.

I think I am going to talk to this man (who makes this osmose gadget to clean my water) again about inorganic minerals like they are in mineralwater and kidney stones. I would just like to get peace of mind.

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on December 14, 2009, 01:43:37 am
  Just a thought,  Nicola, maybe it's the chemicals in the water in the pool where you swim.  Have you ever noticed a correlation between swimming and watery stools.  Some people 'drink' more water when swimming than they now about.  Here in the US almost everyone uses Chlorine to disinfect pools.  You might be highly sensitive to it, and of course it could be disinfecting  your intestines.   Just a thought....
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 25, 2009, 01:33:51 am
Thanks again for the magnesium recommendations, which I've reviewed.

The Trophic Magnesium Chelazome contains magnesium stearate, which Tyler seems to view as extremely toxic and Dr. Ron sent me a fairly persuasive handout on its problems, so I'm trying to avoid it.

Trophic Magnesium Chelazome Ingredients: Each Caplet Contains: magnesium Amino Acid Chelate...560mg(Providing Elemental Magnesium...100mg)Excipients: microcrystalline cellulose, dicalcium phosphate, magnesium stereate (all from vegetable source).

[Side note: For vegetarians/vegans "from vegetable source" is a health claim--to me that reads as more likely unhealthy.]

For a salt lake trace minerals product I found this:

Trace Minerals Research Liquimins Ionic Magnesium, 400 mg
Magnesium (ConcenTrace®)   400 Milligrams   100%
Chloride (ConcenTrace®)   1140 Milligrams   34%
Sodium (ConcenTrace®)   15 Milligrams   <1%
Potassium (ConcenTrace®)   10 Milligrams   0%
Sulfate (ConcenTrace®)   90 Milligrams   *
Boron (ConcenTrace®)   1.6 Milligrams   *
*Daily value not established.
Other Ingredients: ConcenTrace®. This product also contains the full spectrum of naturally occurring minerals and trace minerals from ConcenTrace®, as found in the Great Salt Lake, an inland sea.

It looks more natural but has a fairly high level of chloride that I wasn't looking for. Is there some benefit of ingesting lots of chloride? Dr. Cordain is actually negative on it, though he didn't support his view with anything other than its acidifying nature (and my diet is already acidified, resulting in a urine pH of around 5.5 usually, without any apparent negative effects, so I find that unpersuasive). It also doesn't specify the type of magnesium.

I prefer a less-absorbable form of magnesium, such as magnesium oxide, because that can treat both of my two remaining noticeable Mg-deficiency-type symptoms (the others having appeared to resolve): constipation and mild vertigo if I go too long without any Mg supplementation. It works well for me on both.

This is what I'm leaning to getting for my next magnesium supplement order--it's the purest form of Mg oxide I could find:

Magnesium Oxide Powder - 100% Pure
by Now
8 oz
Contains only pure magnesium oxide from ancient ocean deposits.
http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp405119/r04

My hygienist said that my tartar is probably from excess calcium or phosphorous in my saliva, which is supported here:

"excess calcium can contribute to tartar build-up. Calcium that is naturally present in saliva can be a source of excess calcium. Tartar control agents in toothpaste work by slightly changing the chemistry of saliva and teeth to inhibit the build-up of calcium on teeth. These changes inhibit calcium from crystallizing into tartar once the calcium binds to plaque. In this way, less tartar forms, and the tartar that does form is often easier to remove." http://science.howstuffworks.com/chemistry-in-a-tube-of-toothpaste-info.htm/printable

I asked her if Mg would help offset that and explained that I have a history of multiple Mg-deficiency symptoms (I also have a history of decades of eating wheat with a gluten intolerance, to which Mg deficiency is associated). She said no, but didn't explain why.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on December 25, 2009, 01:54:33 pm

My hygienist said that my tartar is probably from excess calcium or phosphorous in my saliva, which is supported here:



Vitamin D-3 really reduces my tartar/plaque buildup.  You might want to experiment with some D-3 softgels. You can always switch to a more natural form later, if you find that it works for you.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 25, 2009, 10:23:23 pm

I prefer a less-absorbable form of magnesium, such as magnesium oxide, because that can treat both of my two remaining noticeable Mg-deficiency-type symptoms (the others having appeared to resolve): constipation and mild vertigo if I go too long without any Mg supplementation. It works well for me on both.

This is what I'm leaning to getting for my next magnesium supplement order--it's the purest form of Mg oxide I could find:

Magnesium Oxide Powder - 100% Pure
by Now
8 oz
Contains only pure magnesium oxide from ancient ocean deposits.
http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp405119/r04



Is magnesium oxide not "(man)-made"? ...http://www.magnesiaspecialties.com/students.htm
how do you know you need magnesium and wouldn't supplementing cause an unbalance? I mean if a natural diet needs all kinds of processed supplements then we would all have to rethink things?

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on December 25, 2009, 10:48:30 pm
Is magnesium oxide not "(man)-made"? ...http://www.magnesiaspecialties.com/students.htm
how do you know you need magnesium and wouldn't supplementing cause an unbalance? I mean if a natural diet needs all kinds of processed supplements then we would all have to rethink things?

I'm sure all of agree that we'd like to keep man made products to a minimum in our diets. The problem though is that all of us have eaten significant amounts of unnatural man-made foods for decades which has literally weakend and sometimes destroyed our bodies natural ability to do what it does. Take for instance some one who has had all their teeth fall out. Getting new man-made teeth, though entirely unnatural, is an absolute necessity. Unnatural supplementation could ultimately be the answer and is something that should not be automatically ignored, though I'd rather avoid it myself.  That said, I have no clue as to whether magnesium oxide would cause any inbalances.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 25, 2009, 11:05:02 pm
Well I once again got hold of this "OXY-POWDER" new age magnesium - it's quite an interesting read...I mean eating raw is one thing -\

It may help in many ways - like kidnee stones, black tears, IBS...

http://www.webspirit.com/kahuna/produkte/oxypowder.htm

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 26, 2009, 11:08:23 pm
Vitamin D-3 really reduces my tartar/plaque buildup.  You might want to experiment with some D-3 softgels. You can always switch to a more natural form later, if you find that it works for you.
Yes, I take two D3 softgels per day along with the one raw CLO gel, so I can get 5000 IUs of D3 without overloading on vitamin A.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 26, 2009, 11:12:51 pm
Is magnesium oxide not "(man)-made"? ...http://www.magnesiaspecialties.com/students.htm
how do you know you need magnesium and wouldn't supplementing cause an unbalance? I mean if a natural diet needs all kinds of processed supplements then we would all have to rethink things?

Nicola
Here's what that source says:

"The majority of magnesium oxide produced today is obtained from the processing of naturally occurring minerals such as magnesite (magnesium carbonate), magnesium chloride rich brine, and seawater."

Here's the ingredients from http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/oxy-powder/ingredients.html:

Ozonated magnesium ("ozonated" sounds to me like a bogus way to charge more)
Organic Acacia Gum (I don't want this legume crap that I tried in the past with no benefits)
Kosher certified vegetarian capsules (not a selling point for me)

The dosage (2746mg) is WAY more than I take. I take Mg as a nutrient replacement to temporarily make up for the remnants of a deficiency from a past so-called "healthy" diet--not as a violent cleanse. I believe it would be dangerous to take that level of Mg on a regular basis.

Well I once again got hold of this "OXY-POWDER" new age magnesium - it's quite an interesting read...I mean eating raw is one thing -\

It may help in many ways - like kidnee stones, black tears, IBS...

http://www.webspirit.com/kahuna/produkte/oxypowder.htm

Nicola
Thanks for trying to help, but that web page looks like it is written in German, Nicola. I doubt I could order from it and I can't read what the ingredients are.

I hadn't heard of black tears until Tyler mentioned it. What is it?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on December 27, 2009, 10:33:14 am
HI, Phil  ;)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 27, 2009, 11:20:19 am
Hi Katelyn. Glad to hear you're doing well. Doing rather well myself.

Saw "Legends of the Fall" movie video. Brad Pitt did a good job as a "wild" young man who liked the lifestyle and ethics of Native Americans like his Cree friends and wife. I Wish that there had been more about the Native American characters, Pitt's character and his father (Anthony Hopkins) and less about the floozy Susannah and the others. In this as in too many other movies, Native Americans are just little-known bystanders who get casually murdered with little fanfare or are one-dimensional--even though the movie was narrated by one of them.

At the end Tristan's civilized brother Alfred tells the wild Tristan "I followed all the rules, man's and God's. And you, you followed none of them. And they all loved you more." In reality, Alfred sold his soul for money and power, broke his father's heart in the process and left his wife soulless and unfulfilled. Whereas Tristan never gave up his honor, loyalty, family, friends, pride, independence, and wildness.

I felt like saying to Alfred. "You followed the wrong rules. Tristan followed the right ones...the old rules, the old ways." The movie had the right moral.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: moises on December 27, 2009, 09:03:36 pm
Phil,

Like you I have IBS, but, unlike you, it's predominantly diarrhea. Like you, I have been ZC for a while (>6 months, in my case). Unlike you, I eat cooked meat. Like you, I have been plagued with muscle cramps. I get them at night in my legs and in the day in my toes. Like you, I experimented with electrolytes.

I had read a few places that I could increase my intracellular magnesium, without getting diarrhea, by bathing in epsom saltwater. This studyhttp://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:KO8yMO7uJtAJ:www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf+absorb+magnesium+through+skin&hl=en&gl=us (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:KO8yMO7uJtAJ:www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf+absorb+magnesium+through+skin&hl=en&gl=us) didn't measure intracellular magnesium, but it is suggestive. Bathing in epsom salts purportedly has the additional benefit of improving one's skin.

So, I decided to replicate the study I linked to and take an epsom salt bath nightly for a week. After about 4 days I got very, very bad diarrhea. I strongly suspect that the diarrhea was caused by the baths. I stopped the baths and the bad diarrhea ended as well. At some point I will need to test this further by taking the baths nightly again to see if I can replicate the bad diarrhea. But I am not ready for that yet.

In any case, I just wanted you to know that a 12-minute bath in warm or hot water, with 2 cups of epsom salt added can (1) increase your intracellular magnesium and (2) provide you some relief for constipation and (3) help with your acne, if it's on your body and (4) do all the other things that oral magnesium does with regard to muscle relaxation and the cardiovascular system.

I am new to this forum, and I am not a paleo zealot. But I suppose one could make the case that bathing in epsom salt is something that a paleo person could have done if she was fortunate enough to have lived in one of the few spots where there are high concentrations of the stuff. But she could not have taken magnesium as an oral supplement (unless there is some high-magnesium substance that exists naturally).

What drew me to epsom salt bathing was that I could get the magnesium while bypassing my digestive tract. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me. It's something you might consider, however.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on December 27, 2009, 09:20:27 pm
That web page looks like it is written in German, Nicola. I doubt I could order from it and I can't read what the ingredients are.

I hadn't heard of black tears until Tyler mentioned it. What is it?

Sorry, I (my computer) can translate into all kinds of languages - also English ;D forgot that I was on an English speaking forum!

http://www.webspirit.com/kahuna/produkte/oxypowder.htm

I have never heard of black tears, but if dates are dark then I can only see that this some how found it's way to the tear glands - in a good or bad way; who knows!

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 28, 2009, 03:11:45 am
I had read a few places that I could increase my intracellular magnesium, without getting diarrhea, by bathing in epsom saltwater. This studyhttp://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:KO8yMO7uJtAJ:www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/articles/Report_on_Absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf+absorb+magnesium+through+skin&hl=en&gl=us didn't measure intracellular magnesium, but it is suggestive. Bathing in epsom salts purportedly has the additional benefit of improving one's skin.
Ah yes, I meant to try epsom salt baths. I only tried it once in the past. Maybe I should try it multiple days in a row. Thanks.

If Paleo folk could bathe in or make mud packs from natural epsom salts, then they could also ingest it for medicinal purposes: "Epsom Salt is an FDA-approved laxative. Consult the package for directions. It's always a good idea to consult your doctor before ingesting any over-the-counter medication, however." http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/about_faq.htm I thin

My acne only breaks out significantly when I occasionally eat some carbs for social reasons. It broke out recently because I had some hard cider and raw honey to be social and celebratory for the holiday. I find that zinc helps greatly with it, but haven't noticed Mg helping any and it only broke out on the face, so I'm not sure if epsom salts would help at all.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 29, 2009, 06:51:24 am
I also got a little bit of reflux pain from the holiday carb cheating. My reaction to carbs appears to be about the same as what it's always been, no better, no worse. It hasn't calmed down like I hoped more than maybe a tiny bit, and I think the small improvement is mainly because I'm just healthier overall from going raw carnivore rather than improved digestion and tolerance of carbs, though it also hasn't gotten worse like Tyler warned about as a possible result of ZC--at least not yet.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on December 29, 2009, 10:44:56 am
Off topic, but the new Sherlock Holmes movie is fantastic.  ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 29, 2009, 11:35:55 am
Thanks, I liked the Jeremy Brett TV version of Holmes.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on December 29, 2009, 07:41:46 pm
Off topic, but the new Sherlock Holmes movie is fantastic.  ;D

Name, please?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 30, 2009, 07:30:38 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_(2009_film)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on December 30, 2009, 05:40:10 pm
For me, there are only 3 actors who could ever play Sherlock Holmes faithfully:- Jeremy Brett, Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 09, 2010, 06:14:06 am
I tried a larger amount of high meat today and this time I left it in my mouth for a while--to test how well I can handle the taste (it's not awful, but not good either)--instead of bolting it down immediately and found I got a small bit of tingling and itchiness on my palate and tongue, the way I used to with walnuts, except less and with walnuts I would sometimes get it in my throat too. Anyone ever experienced this or have any idea what it is? Is there any acid in high meat or could it be some sort of reaction to the bacteria? I'm not worried about it or anything, just curious. So there's no need to put me at ease with "don't worry about it" type comments. I plan on continuing to eat high meat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on January 09, 2010, 05:21:44 pm
Well, I've always found "high-meat" and aged raw cheese(in preRPD days) to taste very acidic. Never expereinced itchiness or tingling, though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on January 09, 2010, 05:34:15 pm
... high meat today and this time I left it in my mouth for a while--to test how well I can handle the taste (it's not awful, but not good either)--instead of bolting it down immediately and found I got a small bit of tingling and itchiness on my palate and tongue, ... Anyone ... have any idea what it is? Is there any acid in high meat ... I'm ... just curious. ... I plan on continuing to eat high meat.

    I was thinking maybe there's niacin in high meat for a second, but then I remembered meat has nicotinic acid, not niacinimide for its Vitamin B3.  I had thought niacin flushing.  Have you ever flushed from niacin?  If not, I guess I could explain it.  I think it can't be from nutrients from the animal kingdom though. 

    I'm not sure how acidic nicotinic acid from meat or high meat is.  I assume not very acidic.  I don't know if fermenting meat raises the nicotinic acid content.  I guess it would, as I think the B vitamin producing bacteria would proliferate during the meat's fermenting process. 

    I think it would be nothing to worry about, but I'm not the person responsible for your health care.  You are much more likely to know what is safe or not, good or not for you.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 09, 2010, 09:35:07 pm
I do flush from niacin, but the acidity factor seems the most likely cause to me. I wonder what type of acid meat bacteria produces and what the genus and species of the beneficial meat bacteria are. There is lots of info on dairy-eating bacteria (lactobacilli), but I haven't found anything on meat-eating bacteria. There are even bogus claims that meat eaters have "little or no friendly bacteria" (www.hps-online.com/colon-bacteria.htm).

Again, I agree that it's nothing to worry about and I'm not worried, I assure you. I just tend to have more than the avg level of scientific curiosity. :) Besides, worrying never helps anything.

In looking for info I stumbled upon this, which indicates that the much-touted lactobacilli may actually have detrimental dental effects: "Although considered beneficial, some Lactobacillus species have been associated with dental caries. [1] Lactobacillus count in saliva has been used as a "caries test" for many years. [2] This is one of the arguments used in support of the use of fluoride in toothpaste and lozenges. [3]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus)

I've reached my short-term goal of 140 lbs and 19.5 BMI (up from 125 and 17.4 before I started VLC). Unfortunately, some of it is belly and waist flab instead of muscle, so I may have to hold off on going much higher until I can get my body producing more muscle. I may get access to a weight room within months, so that could help.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 24, 2010, 10:03:50 am
I measured the temps of tallow in my crockpot. At the "low" setting it was 195 degrees Fahrenheit at the hottest area next to the sides of the crockpot, which was slightly below my guess of 200 degrees. The "warm" setting was warmer than I thought, however--about 130 degrees F. So it's not technically raw by the 104 degrees standard, but it is close to raw. If anyone has any ideas on how to conveniently heat suet at 104 or below without having to constantly stand over it, let me know. Until then I'll stick with my 130 degrees compromise.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on January 24, 2010, 10:15:46 am
If anyone has any ideas on how to conveniently heat suet at 104 or below without having to constantly stand over it, let me know.

If you mean render, it can't be done. I tried it, the stuff smelled rotten so I threw it out. Delfuego tried it too, and failed.

I have an advantage, in that I care if it is healing, and does not make me sick, which is after all the purpose of paleofood, as well as Hippocrates' advice.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 02, 2010, 10:10:55 am
In the past someone mentioned a device that the crock can be plugged into, which can be set to keep the crock pot temperature lower. Can someone please tell me again what it's called? Thanks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on February 03, 2010, 03:41:09 am
Heh, it was me,  it's called a reostat, the dial you dim lights with.  Just wire it inline with the plug, and you can adjust the wattage/voltage/ temp to what ever you want.  I think I mentioned earlier, you might like to try it with water in to simulate the fat, instead of just being empty, and then when you've found your setting, fill it with fat and try it again.    ps  they have those plastic screw caps that screw over the connected wire strands, much better than wrapping with electrician's tape.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 10, 2010, 10:42:06 am
Ah well, my lady friend was considering aloud and said she can't ever marry me because I'm crazy on account of the raw meat. She has said it briefly before, but she sounded more serious this time.

Lex warned me not to low-heat and filter suet because I lose some fatty acids that way. So right now I'm not heating my suet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 12, 2010, 07:55:15 am
I think William suggested that dehydrated fat tastes better, so I tried air-drying my suet and sure enough, it does seem to taste better and have a less-tough, more crumbly texture. It has less of the sort of musty-strong-taste to it. Maybe that comes from moisture while in the plastic packaging.

To me suet seems a bit too dry to start with, so I was surprised that drying it further actually seems to make it taste better. Maybe I won't need to make as much tallow anymore, which would be a time saver and enable me to be more truly raw. Thanks William.

I recently bought some brilliantly yellow organic suet that looked like GS's but wasn't 100% grass fed, to see what it was like and maybe get more iodine. Big mistake. It was rather gross, with the same excessive connective tissue and brown bits and less pure suet and less tasty. My regular suet is 100% grassfed but doesn't have the brilliant yellow color, but the farm says it's because of the type of pasture they feed on. The nature of that grassfed suet matches the other grassfed suet brand that's sold at my market, whereas the yellow fat was much closer to supermarket suet other than color, so the farm's claim seems reasonable.

So apparently grassfed is more important than organic or yellow when it comes to suet taste and quality, but I could be wrong because I'm not well versed on the subject.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on February 12, 2010, 10:20:02 am
Could we please have some more terms than suet? It is hard to know what people are talking about... Suet is the fat around the kidneys, but people use it to talk about other stuff. Could we please find, or come up with some more terms. i.e. a general one for all the fat which is like suet, and ones to describe the suet-like fat from specific places..?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 12, 2010, 10:34:06 am
We could call it kidney fat, though that's a little misleading, since it's not fat from a kidney, but the fat surrounding the kidney and adjacent organs. Perinephric fat is another term, but most folks don't know what that means (around the kidneys). I've only ever seen it labeled as suet in markets.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on February 12, 2010, 11:35:57 am
Jersey cows and older females produce more yellow fat
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on February 12, 2010, 12:54:11 pm
Could we please have some more terms than suet? It is hard to know what people are talking about... Suet is the fat around the kidneys, but people use it to talk about other stuff. Could we please find, or come up with some more terms. i.e. a general one for all the fat which is like suet, and ones to describe the suet-like fat from specific places..?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suet
Main Entry: su·et
Pronunciation: \?sü-?t\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sewet, from Anglo-French suet, siuet, from seu, su hard animal fat, from Latin sebum
Date: 14th century
: the hard fat about the kidneys and loins in beef and mutton that yields tallow
Learn more about "suet" and related topics at Britannica.com

I use the fat from the back just in front of the tail; makes better tasting tallow. Just call it back fat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on February 12, 2010, 04:15:18 pm
Jersey cows and older females produce more yellow fat

    Could that be due to rancidity or dysfunction of the liver?  Or is it like brown fat?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on February 13, 2010, 04:22:11 am
 I think it's completely due to the way it is.  Something to do with the way they process caratonene,  or however you spell the word.  I know for fact that it tastes far superiour  to white fat,  at least I want to think so.  No, it really is yummy.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 13, 2010, 06:11:45 am
The grassfed nearly-white kidney fat (the yellow is only easily visible if you melt it) I buy tastes much better than the gooey, connective-tissue-filled yellow organic grain-finished kidney fat. So the yellow color doesn't seem to make as big a difference on taste as the [100%] grassfed aspect.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on February 13, 2010, 07:01:58 am
I've been confused about the fat-labeling as well. I used to be able to acquire suet that was indeed suet from local farms but it was always frozen. I've never seen anything labeled suet in conventional markets like WF, although usually displaying organs (other than perhaps chicken liver or maybe heart) is also quite rare. For people in the US, are you acquiring these directly from farms or do you have relationships with butchers that carry grass-fed? are fats and organs the kind of thing markets like WF separate on site or do all their muscle meats get shipped as it? I think in the past I've asked for various fats only to get blank stares.

It seems the majority of people here object to frozen in most cases but I also see alot of posts from people in the US ordering from sites farms like Slankers or US wellness. I personally had no problems with frozen suet but it wasn't the staple of my diet and thus not consumed in larger enough quantities to determine.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 13, 2010, 07:19:43 am
I can buy conventional grain-finished kidney fat labeled as "suet," as well as marrow, at one of the Hannaford conventional supermarkets (a New England, USA chain).

I can buy organic grain-finished kidney fat and 100% grass-fed kidney fat, both labeled as "suet" or "miscellaneous" at the local Healthy Living healthfood market. There is also very expensive duck fat at Healthy Living. At both Hannaford and Healthy Living the fat is wrapped in standard plastic and Styrofoam meat packaging.

I thought that the slightly musty/gamey smell and taste of grassfed meat and fat and grain-finished fat (but not grain-finished meat) was inherent to it, perhaps due to the hay the animals eat or something, but I've noticed that it disappears if I leave the meat and fat out overnight so that it air-dries. I wonder if the fact that it sits in sealed plastic for a while produces some or all of the mustiness/gameyness? Doesn't explain why I don't notice it in plastic-wrapped grain-finished meat, though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on February 13, 2010, 08:19:52 am
For people in the US, are you acquiring these directly from farms or do you have relationships with butchers that carry grass-fed? are fats and organs the kind of thing markets like WF separate on site or do all their muscle meats get shipped as it? I think in the past I've asked for various fats only to get blank stares.
Most places just order muscle meat and butcher these as opposed to whole carcasses so you'll rarely if ever find organs outside of liver. Of course you can scout out the supermarkets in poorer areas as these tend to have more organs in my experience (a local ShopRite store stocks liver, heart, tripe, tongues, and occasionally kidney but it's invariably grainfed). Then you have the more specialty markets who do get who animals but it's hard to find one getting grassfed animals.
Most "butchers" aren't real butchers, they're just meat jockeys. They have no clue about half of the terms you could throw at them. It's a dying art and not surprising you get blank stares.

Quote
It seems the majority of people here object to frozen in most cases but I also see alot of posts from people in the US ordering from sites farms like Slankers or US wellness. I personally had no problems with frozen suet but it wasn't the staple of my diet and thus not consumed in larger enough quantities to determine.
IMO frozen meat is denatured. It doesn't nourish the body as thoroughly as fresh grassfed meat but frozen grassfed is tons better than fresh grainfed. It's a case of the less of two evils. I personally order supplemental fat and organs from Slankers but get as much fresh muscle meat & fat as I can from my local supplier. I can only get fresh liver from them though so if I want say a tongue I need to call up Slankers.
As far as frozen suet I find it less damaged by the freezing than other fats. It's more saturated nature holds up better. I probably eat frozen suet 22+ days out of every month and have no ill effects as a result. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on February 13, 2010, 10:18:52 am
Hey Phil. I don't leave it out overnight, I just leave it out on the table for a bit before I eat it, wave it around a bit, blow on it and turn it over =D And yea, any unpleasant taste/odour is gone so it's not something that should be there. i.e. if you either freshly killing an animal, or you just covered it with a breathable skin/hide or whatever it wouldn't have that... It builds up because there's no air-flow. Waste products from bacteria digesting the meat I suppose.

If I leave it out overnight, I have to cover it, and then I'm just leaving it again, sitting on one side... Unless you can hang it by a hook I don't see how leaving it out would do much good? It'll just get more decomposed.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 13, 2010, 10:19:34 pm
...If I leave it out overnight, I have to cover it, and then I'm just leaving it again, sitting on one side... Unless you can hang it by a hook I don't see how leaving it out would do much good? It'll just get more decomposed.
For those who think that high meat and stink fish may be healthy, more digestible stuff, decomposed is a good thing, not bad (as long as it is done in an oxygen-rich environment). Yes, hanging would be optimal, but a the carcass of a lion's kill is just left lying on the ground (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiJBjsHEi1w--notice also that the more rotted their meat the more jealously the lions appear to guard it), so hanging isn't essential. I've been trying to think how I would hang my meats/fats. Maybe a big wooden box with hooks in it. I probably don't need the refrigeration of commercial meat lockers, since it rarely gets very hot in my home and people in Africa hang meat outdoors in hot temperatures.

Thanks for letting me know that it only takes a brief period of blowing air to get rid of the mustiness. Try air-drying a piece of suet overnight (yes, hanging is best, but it works just by leaving it on a table too) and I think you'll see what I'm talking about. I find it to be even tastier, but it may be a personal preference. A hide would be better to store in than plastic, yes. I think anaerobic, moisture-holding plastic combined with a moisture-promoting environment like a fridge is the source of the mustiness.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on February 13, 2010, 11:01:18 pm
Nice vid! I wonder if the maggots would add or detract to the nutritional goodness of the meat. I've left some of my meat out at room temperature for a few days on plates making sure to rotate it every once in a while to keep it oxygenated with good results. Unfortunately the smell was too strong for the other people in the place I'm staying in so it had to go and I'm back to fresh defrosted meat again. I actually didn't think there was anything wrong with the smell.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2010, 01:40:38 am
Yes, the social factor vs. the need to oxygenate is what I'm trying to figure out how to deal with as well. I'm thinking that a solution might be a large sealed wooden box with hooks to hang meat/fat from, maybe with the meat coated in spices if necessary and/or topped by a fragrant plant for added insurance against odor (and insects in the case of the spices).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on February 14, 2010, 03:30:52 am
Before refrigeration was invented, everybody kept their meat in the coolest place possible, down to 5°C, and butchers still do this to get the best tasting meat.
On ZIOH they are raving about the excellent taste of this, calling it dry aging.

Maggots probably do nothing for the meat except eat it, so they are just competition.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2010, 03:58:36 am
Before refrigeration was invented, everybody kept their meat in the coolest place possible, down to 5°C, and butchers still do this to get the best tasting meat.
Everybody? Including people living in the Sahara and Kalahari deserts with no electricity? Cooling may be beneficial, but I'm not convinced it's essential. I saw a video on Bushmen hunting and they just dried the meat on tree branches, without any added cooling techniques beyond a little shade from the tree. I emailed my father to ask how my Irish relatives did it before they got their refrigerator in the 1970s.

Quote
On ZIOH they are raving about the excellent taste of this, calling it dry aging.
Yes, I like the taste too.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on February 14, 2010, 04:23:32 am
I saw a video on Bushmen hunting and they just dried the meat on tree branches, without any added cooling techniques beyond a little shade from the tree.
In a tree is the coolest place possible.
Fresh meat is wet. Meat dries by evaporation. Evaporation cools. I learned this in school.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2010, 04:34:28 am
In a tree is the coolest place possible. ...
A little shade from a scraggly tree in the Kalahari desert isn't going to bring the temp down to 5°C.


Journal note:

I was recently low on fat and cheated by making up for the fat shortage by eating a small bowl of raw fruit (berries, red grapes, pineapple and melon, with a handful of spring greens) two days in a row and developed a nasty cancer sore--which was the first [canker] sore I've had since going raw carnivore, so I suspect it may have been related--pineapple is my biggest suspect because it seems acidic and acidic foods have done a number on me in the past. Since laying off the fruit again my [canker] sore has been healing.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on February 14, 2010, 08:16:33 am
Canker sore?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2010, 09:53:19 am
LOL! Yeah, thanks for the catch. Blunder number 2,000 for me. :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on February 16, 2010, 09:55:40 am
Phil:

Can I have your opinion on two things re: raw eggs? I really value your opinion, as you know.

1.  Is there a benefit to eating the shell? I could break up the shell into my beef bowl is there is. I'm eating Eggland Best Eggs, so not the typical supermarket brand. I'd love to get the fertilized or pastured eggs you mention.
2.  I read that soaking eggs in warm water is enough to unbind the avidin. Some suggested running the egg under hot water before using it raw.

What do you think?
Thanks, Phil!

 ;D Kate
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 18, 2010, 06:24:01 am
Phil:

Can I have your opinion on two things re: raw eggs? I really value your opinion, as you know.

1.  Is there a benefit to eating the shell? I could break up the shell into my beef bowl is there is. I'm eating Eggland Best Eggs, so not the typical supermarket brand. I'd love to get the fertilized or pastured eggs you mention.
I don't know. I've tried it and didn't care for it and never heard of hunter-gatherers do it, so my suspicion is that they don't. I do know that they tend to chew on bones and consume small, soft bones and bones made soft from fermentation (such as from stink fish, yay!--love every chance I get to say "stink fish").

Quote
2.  I read that soaking eggs in warm water is enough to unbind the avidin. Some suggested running the egg under hot water before using it raw....
Interesting. Hadn't heard that one. I doubt it, since the interior of the egg likely wouldn't be heated much. I could be wrong, though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on February 20, 2010, 06:45:37 pm
I don't know. I've tried it and didn't care for it and never heard of hunter-gatherers do it, so my suspicion is that they don't. I do know that they tend to chew on bones and consume small, soft bones and bones made soft from fermentation (such as from stink fish, yay!--love every chance I get to say "stink fish").


The first & only hit I got from ixquick was:
stink fish
fish member of the family Callionymidae. Cause immediate, forceful vomiting.
Hmm, thought I, PaleoPhil is weirder than I thought.  :)
Then I tried scroogle, and it said it's a traditional Inuit delicacy in Alaska. Wonder if they could be persuaded to sell some?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 22, 2010, 03:23:12 am
The first & only hit I got from ixquick was:
stink fish
fish member of the family Callionymidae. Cause immediate, forceful vomiting.
Hmm, thought I, PaleoPhil is weirder than I thought.  :)
Hahahaha! Yeeeheee!

Quote
Then I tried scroogle, and it said it's a traditional Inuit delicacy in Alaska. Wonder if they could be persuaded to sell some?
Are there some Inuit near you?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on February 22, 2010, 04:40:45 am

Are there some Inuit near you?

Well, there is the federal minister of health, probably some others. All too civilized.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 22, 2010, 06:53:33 am
Andrew Zimmern ate some stink heads in his Alaska video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUUy0ZiUnMc&feature=related) made by Lucy Crow. I like her spirit.

You can tell from Andrew's response that he didn't care for the stink head, but he tries to be diplomatic. I think I would wait until high meat tastes OK before trying stink fish/heads.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 05, 2010, 10:18:33 am
My increasing constipation and still too-low urine pH convinced me to broaden my experiments ahead of schedule. I've been experimenting with dairy, fruit and raw honeycomb with poor results. It stinks. :(

I tried making ghee from pastured cultured butter on Sunday night and ate some, finding it to taste good even though I overcooked it a bit. However, Monday morning I woke real early feeling miserable and had to call in sick. I'm surprised that only 3 or so oz. of slightly overdone ghee had such a negative effect. I'll bet I didn't get all the casein and whey out of it. Ghee tastes better than cultured butter, but is too expensive, too finicky, and appears to be too risky for me to mess with it much.


2 days ago I tried a bigger bowl of fruit and greens at work, this time leaving out tropical fruit and only including frozen strawberries and blueberries plus grapes. Later that afternoon I yawned three times in a row. It was noticeable because that's the first time in months I've yawned that many times in a row and they were gaping yawns like I used to get before I went VLC. When I eat carnivore, no matter how tired I am I rarely yawn at all and when I do it's never more than a single yawn at a time and they are always small little yawns that last hardly half a second, instead of gaping yawns.

It occurred to me--carbs provide anaerobic fuel to cells, including cancer cells that are anaerobic cells, whereas fats provide aerobic fuel. I heard that yawning is supposed to be caused by oxygen depletion in combination with tiredness. Could carbs actually deplete oxygen? I'll try to monitor this some more in the future.

I bought a pint of blueberries yesterday and ate some yesterday and today. I also added about 1/2 a tsp of raw honey to some herbal tea and ate a small chunk of the truly raw honeycomb that Tyler recommended (it is indeed different from the store stuff and tastes excellent) for an additional boost to the urine pH. It wasn't a lot of total carbs, but it was enough to get my urine pH up to 6.4. However, I also got a slight rash that was mildly itchy and dry skin on my right arm and more dry skin elsewhere, including mildly chapped lips, and a small skin irritation in my beard. Plus, a film formed on my teeth that was difficult to brush away and I developed morning breath. It's amazing how little carbs it seems to take to bring out some symptoms. The symptoms are no worse (nor better) than before, it's just easier to recognize them after getting my overall symptom threshold so low with raw facultative carnivore. I was low on fat, so I only added a little fat to the blueberries; maybe more fat would have helped.

I also ate some greens the last 3 days (and a tiny bit of kelp one day) and was hoping this might help with my constipation, but no such luck. At least I didn't notice any negative symptoms from them, and I doubt they contributed to the skin issues like the carbs may have, but I can't know for sure, since I tended to eat the greens either with the fruit or not long before or afterwards.

So far raw carnivore is the only thing that keeps all my symptoms--except for acidic, bubbly urine and constipation--away. Raw fruits bring the urine pH up, but appear to cause multiple other problems and don't help with the bubbles or constipation.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on March 05, 2010, 05:29:45 pm
I'm afraid it's a myth that one can make ghee that is 100% devoid of lactose or casein. There are always trace amounts left which will cause problems for those with particular sensitivity to dairy. It's worse, IMO,for those with only slight food-intolerance to dairy, as they might be able tolerate ghee in the short-term re no immediately observable symptoms, but be unaware of the longer-term harm done by ghee  until it's too late.

Are you sure it's constipation as in stools refusing to come out? My own experience when doing without carbs and just eating 1 large meal a day is that it can easily happen that I have a bowel movement once in a 3 or 4 day period, though more usually, it's more frequent than that, of course.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 06, 2010, 07:50:42 am
I'm afraid it's a myth that one can make ghee that is 100% devoid of lactose or casein.
You may be right. Some very believable people report being able to handle ghee despite problems with butter, but perhaps I'm more sensitive, because I did score nearly off the charts in antibody count to every dairy component that was in the test (casein, whey, lactose and "dairy"--whatever that one referred to--as I recall). It's too much of a pain anyway for me to deal with making ghee and trying to get every bit of milk solid out of it.

Are you sure it's constipation as in stools refusing to come out? My own experience when doing without carbs and just eating 1 large meal a day is that it can easily happen that I have a bowel movement once in a 3 or
4 day period, though more usually, it's more frequent than that, of course.
I don't determine it by # of times/day, I determine it by the Bristol Stool Scale and how hard it is and how difficult to pass. Lately it's been ranging from #1 to #3 on the scale. There is a correlation--the longer between BMs, the lower on the scale it goes--but I base it on the scale rather than the frequency. The good news is there isn't visible mucus like there used to be when I was eating cooked and more carbs, so my colon seems less irritated by the stools staying in it.

I see reports of people going 3 or more days without a BM and not having it go down to #1 - #3 on the scale, which I find amazing. There must be something wrong with my system that causes it to dry out the stools rapidly and causes the colon to get irritated. The latter is much improved, so that confirms it as far as the irritation goes. My stools initially normalized not long after I went ZC (I could handle a couple days without a BM and not get much constipated), but worsened again when my fecal volume declined.

It's not just a matter of not getting enough fluids, because I'm drinking more now than when I was less constipated, though I do think I'm drinking less than optimal for carnivorous diets. Part of the problem is, my bladder gets painfully bloated if I try to drink as much as Lex does--especially overnight. Maybe Inuits had bigger bladders or something. I also so far don't get thirsty enough to drink a lot more and it's time consuming to frequently drink and urinate and easy to forget to do it.

The other problem is, adding back in some carbs triggers my old skin and other symptoms, takes away the feeling of health and wellbeing, and doesn't help with the constipation. Greens haven't noticeably hurt anything, but they haven't helped either.

I think I'll try this approach: try to remember to take water, Mg and greens every day, with monthly clay for detoxing the antinutrients from the greens if I take them for long, and keep trying to increase my water intake. If my pH gets below 6.0, I may do occasional doses of carbs to get it back up again, unless the symptoms from carbs get too bad. Lex thinks the urine pH may not be a problem. I need to order the Multistix to check the urine specific gravity.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on March 06, 2010, 10:11:31 am
Phil,  you might try various forms of sit up and abdominal exercises.  They work for me.  Also shoulder stand with rapid breath of fire breathing really massages your stomach. As well as any yoga postures that stretch and strengthen abdominal area.   Also trampolining works well for me.  Water should be throughout the day.  Have read where if you need water and don't drink it, the moisture will then be obtained from intestines.  And then there's deep abdominal massage, looking or feeling for hardness of tissues, tendons, muscles etc. that can be energy or peristaltic inhibitors.  Exercise till inducing deep breathing, and belly breathing throughout the day helps.  You might try eating a few leaves of cabbage or spinach at various times in the day.  I like the white parts of lemons for soft bulky fiber, with little carbs and lots of bioflavinoids. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: wodgina on March 06, 2010, 10:27:32 am
It took Ioanna 2 months of nothing but raw bison and water to clear up her IBS? It took just one cooked chicken breast to send her back to square one. To be honest I've been in denial about my own IBS and how sensitive I really am.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 07, 2010, 07:52:09 pm
One possible contributor to my constipation issues is that my abdominal muscles are still partly disengaged because of my remaining spinal curvature. I think this also partly accounts for my lack of defined abdominal muscles, whereas I've seen other people effortlessly develop them through diet alone. I try to remember to manually engage my abs when walking, running or doing calesthenics, and it also helps to promote proper alignment. On the bright side, I can do a lot more crunches and sit ups than I used to be able to. When I was a kid I couldn’t even do ten sit ups to get my Webelos’ physical fitness award (or whatever it was called), so I basically cheated and kept my legs straight to make it easier. That was still considered an OK situp by some people back then (though I knew better), so I got away with it. One kid complained that I should be disqualified, though. ;D

I don't think I would call what I have IBS any more (I used to have IBS-C with D). It’s more straight constipation now, and with less other side effects (no reactive diarrhea, mucus, cramping, nausea, headaches, etc.). The biggest bummer is it resolved nearly completely without any treatment other than diet for a few weeks for the first time in probably decades, then the constipation gradually kicked in again when the fecal volume declined. I think the volume is too little to trigger my colon's smooth muscle tissue, which is probably still lax from past damage from consuming glutenous wheat and other damaging foods.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on March 07, 2010, 09:18:37 pm
Heavy squats and deadlifts are going to strengthen your core in a more functional manner than crunches or sit-ups or whatever ab exercise ever will.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on March 08, 2010, 01:20:12 am
another volume producer is psylillium husks or flax.  Both I have soaked in water first.  The flax to get rid of hopefully most of the anti-nutrients, the psyl. to prevent it from soaking up the juices in my stomach etc.  It shouldn't take much, maybe a teaspoon once or twice a day.    Oh, with the flax, I always chewed it to the point of dissolvement, or blended it.  One can soak and sproat them, and lay them out to dry, which then is much easier to chew until liquid.    But this was years ago. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ForTheHunt on March 08, 2010, 03:21:03 am
Psyllium husk and fiber like that makes me constipated like nuts.

If you have constipation issues then it's usually because you are over eating. You need to wait until you are very hungry until you eat and then only eat till you're not hungry any more.

On raw paleo you don't need as much food as before to get the nutrients and energy you need. When I have most energy is when I am careful not to over eat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 08, 2010, 04:13:08 am
Heavy squats and deadlifts are going to strengthen your core in a more functional manner than crunches or sit-ups or whatever ab exercise ever will.
Sure, I don't have room for weights in my apt. or money for a gym membership, but I make do, in part based on the advice given here, and do single-leg squats, frog squats and standard squats. I also sometimes squat-sit when sitting down and always when doing a BM, as it is a natural and beneficial human movement that should be incorporated into everyday practice, not just in special exercise times. I also do other ab exercises that have been demonstrated to be highly effective in exercising the abdominals, like the bicycle crunch and vertical crunch (http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/abdominalcorestrength1/qt/Bicycle_Crunch.htm). I actually find the U-sit to be the most effective exercise in stimulating my bowels. It's strange that I can now do hundreds of regular crunches, whereas ten or twenty used to be a struggle, yet my ab muscles don't look substantially larger. My grandfather was like this. Up until his seventies he was as strong as iron, yet very thin and spindly looking.

What really amazed me was that some folks at the ZIOH forum developed muscular, defined abs through diet alone. I suspect some of them may already have had them underneath the fat and just had to lose weight to reveal them. Plus, some people may respond very well to the increased meat and/or dairy hormones and low level of antinutrients in the ZC diet.

another volume producer is psylillium husks or flax.
Thanks, but I tested those two things probably more extensively than 99% of the people on the planet with little to no benefit and they seemed to exacerbate my problems in the longer run. Between the two, the most effective thing to promote movement for me was to just eat plain flax seeds, perhaps because they irritated the colon. After a while, that was no longer very effective. Check out the video "Fiber Menace" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz53dawDtJ8) for why they're both harmful. I do find flaxseed oil to be effective on the skin and muscles (I witnessed it literally make my fathers red, inflamed muscle pull literally disappear before my eyes as he wiped it on--I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it), but I no longer ingest any flax products. After I got tired of several people insisting I was not taking enough flaxseed oil, seeds or meal I drank a whole 16 ounce glass of it, plus ate a bunch of soaked flaxseeds and flaxseed meal to settle it once and for all. Those people were shocked when I reported that absolutely nothing happened. They were sure that it would give me bad diarrhea to take that much. Yet no matter how much I took and how often it failed, they continued to insist it would eventually work. They were kind of like the raw vegans in their blind faith in this, and still are. I can't believe how much time and money I wasted on flax products. As you can probably tell, this was one of my major mistakes and I regret suggesting to others that they try ingesting it based on the amazing things it did on the surface and on the advice of Cordain and others, despite my own lack of success with it re: internal purposes. I still think it might be medicinally beneficial for some if used over brief periods, but is not advisable to ingest over longer periods. I find I benefit more from animal and seafood fats.

Quote
Both I have soaked in water first.
Just soaking psyllium in water would likely constipate me pretty badly. You're supposed to mix it in a liquid to avoid it getting too dried up and stuck in your colon.

Quote
  The flax to get rid of hopefully most of the anti-nutrients, the psyl. to prevent it from soaking up the juices in my stomach etc.  It shouldn't take much, maybe a teaspoon once or twice a day.    Oh, with the flax, I always chewed it to the point of dissolvement, or blended it.  One can soak and sproat them, and lay them out to dry, which then is much easier to chew until liquid.    But this was years ago. 
If one is going to eat flaxseeds then it does make sense to sprout them, because they contain antinutrients of their own.

Psyllium husk and fiber like that makes me constipated like nuts.
Yeah, they helped me a little bit at first, but then made things worse.

Quote
If you have constipation issues then it's usually because you are over eating. You need to wait until you are very hungry until you eat and then only eat till you're not hungry any more.

On raw paleo you don't need as much food as before to get the nutrients and energy you need. When I have most energy is when I am careful not to over eat.
Problem is, if I don't eat a lot I lose weight and end up looking emaciated. I also notice that my constipation actually tends to worsen when I eat less, probably because even less feces is produced.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on March 08, 2010, 05:26:43 am
sounds like you've had your fill of remedies but for what its worth I think chia seed is supposed to be far better for constipation. I know AV recommends to blend soaked chia with whole lemon and butter to be effective. but I think vegans will consume the gel (soaked in water it becomes gelatinous w/o additives) a few times a day. I've tried the AV formula and it doesn't seem to work miracles for myself, but would definitely be my choice over the dangerous flax and psyllium.

The other thing that works very well (although could be disastrous in other ways) as a last resort is fasting for a large part of a day, and eating an entire smallish watermelon, or as much as possible.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ForTheHunt on March 08, 2010, 05:30:14 am
I don't think that you'll become emaciated.

On such a high fat/protein diet I have a hard time believing you'd lose muscle.

I find that when I under eat my skin clears, my energy increases and I become more defined and healthy looking with out losing any muscle.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 08, 2010, 07:13:58 am
I don't think that you'll become emaciated.
I appreciate the suggestions, but the problem is I already lost some weight when I tried doing one meal a day and let the calories fall down to around 3000/day, and I'm very thin to begin with. I'm trying one meal a day again, but this time if I don't get enough calories in the one meal I eat another. Even now people are telling me I need to add still more weight and I've already lost a few pounds limiting myself to 1-2 meals (my last weighing said I added weight, but it must have been off). At least my strength and overall physical fitness is still gradually improving. I'm hoping that IF plus vitamin D3 (a steroid-type hormone) plus the squats, chin ups, push ups, etc. done in the ways recommended in this forum might trigger muscle growth.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 08, 2010, 09:21:55 am
Another benefit I experienced since going Paleo and then further since going raw carnivore is less light sensitivity. I used to be extremely sensitive to light, to the point that eye exams were difficult. It has now gotten to the point where I can handle sunlight better than most people, so when my officemate asked if the harsh lights in our office were bothering me I said no, forgetting that I handle light well now. When I remembered that and learned that she wanted to dim some of the bulbs I agreed. I also am not bothered when the office gets hot or cold (unless I've worked up some heat carrying stuff and walking up and down steps), but everyone else who visits the office complains about the temps one way or the other. My body's thermostat has been working well.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on March 08, 2010, 10:43:39 am
You and I are meant to be ectomorphs, Phil.  :D I love not having to worry, within reason, about gaining weight easily. That said, your metabolism might be higher than mine because you are a male. However, I do active weightlifting. I have no problem getting 2000 calories in my window for workout days. But I don't need as much as you of course.  :D

Oh, guess what? I went to a nearby farm today and got PASTURED eggs and PASTURED lard. Check this place out: http://peteandjensbackyardbirds.com/default.aspx.

I haven't tried the eggs yet, but the lard is delicious! Let me know if you are in the area sometime and I can get you some. I think I'm going to be a regular there.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Hannibal on March 08, 2010, 02:36:30 pm
I appreciate the suggestions, but the problem is I already lost some weight when I tried doing one meal a day and let the calories fall down to around 3000/day, and I'm very thin to begin with. I'm trying one meal a day again, but this time if I don't get enough calories in the one meal I eat another.  
Maybe you try to eat this one meal in the short period of time? My one meal lasts up to 6 yours and I eat several times during that period.
What is really important in IF is the amount of time when you don't eat - in my case it's usually 18-20 hours. I find it the best way to eat.
Eating 3000 calories in 30 minutes would be really a bad idea. I tried that couple of times and I didn't feel good
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 09, 2010, 07:03:04 am
...Eating 3000 calories in 30 minutes would be really a bad idea. I tried that couple of times and I didn't feel good
Yes, I agree. Right now I'm trying to eat one meal within a 3 hour evening window, but sometimes go overtime and if I don't get enough food I'll allow myself a 2nd small breakfast or lunch meal.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 10, 2010, 08:14:14 am
I tried pastured raw beef ribs for the first time. That was some tough meat! My teeth and jaw aren't strong enough to get more than a little off and couldn't eat them, so I cooked them and it was much easier.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on March 10, 2010, 08:29:44 am
I've noticed this too. The boneless beef short ribs I got from slankers infuriated me with the horribly long time it took me to eat it raw. I'm not sure I'll be ordering them again.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on March 10, 2010, 09:52:03 pm
Phil, I believe that magnesium and other minerals (as you mentioned in Tylers journal - I don't need to tell him because he knows it all better) add to the full picture; I notice that a little magnesium and other minerals (ocean gold) could be helpfull.

Kelso has never mentioned any trouble...so I don't just listen to one person; as I said, it is often the attitude - the way we deal with life.

Are you taking vitamin D3 - I found out yesterday that that is cholesterol.

Nicola
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 11, 2010, 03:26:51 pm
Phil, I believe that magnesium and other minerals (as you mentioned in Tylers journal - I don't need to tell him because he knows it all better) add to the full picture; I notice that a little magnesium and other minerals (ocean gold) could be helpfull.

Kelso has never mentioned any trouble...so I don't just listen to one person; as I said, it is often the attitude - the way we deal with life.

Are you taking vitamin D3 - I found out yesterday that that is cholesterol.

Nicola
You must be a mind reader, Nicola, because I did up my magnesium intake, although I was reluctant to do so, and it has helped some. I also learned that coffee binds magnesium as well as zinc (duh, I should have guessed that), so that's another reason for me to stay off that. I hadn't been drinking a lot, but maybe I'm more sensitive to it than the avg person. I drank some tonight, though, because I was up late showing support for my union at a contract negotiation meeting and it was successful, thankfully.

It seems I have to face the fact that some of my nutrient deficiencies and antinutrient sensitivities to foods that many people think of as harmless (or nearly so) are still significant, though the improvements so far gives me hope that they'll resolve more fully in the not-too-distant future.

Yes, I take cod liver oil plus some additional D3, per the reasonable-sounding recommendations of Dr. Harris, Dr. William Davis, Peter of Hyperlipid, Stephan Guyenet, and others. D3 also acts as a safe steroid hormone and can reportedly boost muscle development, which would be a boon for me. It can also bind with excess calcium and in doing so make it more absorbable and avoid accumulation of excess free calcium in the bodily fluids and avoid calcium deposits in plaque on the teeth, calcium oxalate kidney stones in the kidneys (both problems that I have a history of), arterial calcium deposits, and calcifications in the joints, bursa sacs, brain, and other areas of the body. I also have a high sensitivity to dairy foods, which suggests that my body is probably designed to not need much calcium intake, as with the Neanderthals, Inuits, etc. Very high avg intake of D3 is probably one reason most Inuit didn't need to consume much calcium to avoid deficiencies in it. So I have many reasons to take D3 that I should have recognized long before this. There's just so much to learn it's overwhelming at times.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nicola on March 11, 2010, 10:38:46 pm
Hi Phil, what have you noticed by taking more magnesium and what kind are you taking? I'm only taking this "ocean gold"; it's not like one of those supplements with a lot of magnesium (we wouldn't be getting that in nature). William mentioned that C. Louis Kervran tested oil workers in Algeria in the 1960s, and found that although their diet was very low in magnesium, their body wastes had lots of it. This was part of the database that he used to show that transmutation of the elements by microbes happens in the human body.

How much vitamin D3 are you taking - Dr. Harris once again; http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/9/vitamin-d.html

I still don't know how people can drink big amounts of water just sitting - it doesn't feel right! Do you drink after/with eating raw meat? How did the cooked meat digest?

Nicola

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 12, 2010, 08:24:19 am
With that out of the way, Mg moderates my constipation and seems to make my muscles less prone to tenseness and soreness even when tired from sleep shortage or extensive workouts. I'm hoping it will also contribute to less calcium in my saliva (and possibly urine), in conjunction with vitamins D3, A and K2 through food and foodlement sources. Of course, you shouldn't take something just because I do.

Quote
How much vitamin D3 are you taking - Dr. Harris once again; http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/9/vitamin-d.html
Don't go by how much I take. You're better off reading Dr. Harris'
recommendations and figuring out the best dosage for you. Dr. William Davis also provides advice on intake levels. It's best to get your level measured, of course.

Quote
I still don't know how people can drink big amounts of water just sitting - it doesn't feel right! Do you drink after/with eating raw meat? How did the cooked meat digest?
Yes. Both. Fine.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 24, 2010, 05:28:49 am
The no-yawning effect of ZC

I tried eating two 6 oz containers of raspberries with my meat/fat meal on Sunday night. For most of my life on a SAD diet, yawning and daydreaming were common occurrences for me. One unusual phenomenon I've mentioned in the past that I've experienced since going carnivore is near-zero yawning as long as I don't eat plant carbs. While avoiding plant carbs I only yawn at a rate of about once a week, possibly less, almost regardless of how little sleep I get, and even the few yawns I do make tend to be half-yawns, with my mouth never expanding to a full gape. Yawns are so rare for me now, that they are unusual, discrete events (rarely more than one at a time) and I can easily count count them.

Monday morning I yawned--wide, gaping yawns--7 times within an hour or so. I was quite fatigued and my muscles were slightly sore and tense. The yawning ceased after I ate plenty of suet near mid-day and I have not yawned since (despite getting less sleep than I did the night before yawning). This all may seem very minor or coincidental, but this is the third time I've replicated these results and in some investigating I did on the Web I found info indicating that at the cellular level, carbs are oxygen-depleting, whereas (at least some) fats are oxygen-promoting. Could this effect extend beyond the cellular level to the systemic level? Could carb eating deplete oxygen sufficiently to force the body to yawn and/or breathe more deeply to replace the lost oxygen, or is something else going on here?

Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on March 24, 2010, 05:42:34 am
*yawn*

...wait what did you say?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 24, 2010, 06:23:37 am
Heh, heh  :D, it does seem at first blush like a joking matter, but I suspect there is more to it than just yawning. For example, Otto Heinrich Warburg, MD won the Nobel prize for his findings on the respiration of cells, particularly cancer cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis). Warburg found that cancer cells thrive in an anaerobic environment, because they get their energy from an anaerobic fuel source. What is that anaerobic fuel source? The anaerobic fermentation of glucose into pyruvate, presumably fueled by dietary carbs (whether only certain types of carbs provide the fuel and others don't, I don't know), as Warburg indicated in his 1966 lecture at a meeting of Nobel laureates:

"Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar." ("The Prime Cause and Prevention of Cancer," Revised Lindau Lecture, http://healingtools.tripod.com/primecause1.html/)

This toxic anaerobic process apparently bypasses the mitochondria and is apparently also found in Alzheimer's disease http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis#Alzheimer.27s_disease, and doubtless other diseases of civilization as well. Because of this process, some believe that ketogenic diets are potentially effective treatments of cancer.

Believe it or not, I think that carb-induced yawning may be another (far more benign, of course) effect of this process and that it may have implications for athletic performance, since efficient oxygen use and mitochondria are so important in aerobic athletic activities. It could also just be mere fluke coincidence that I experience this no-yawning phenomenon while I avoid plant carbs, but the connections are interesting.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on March 24, 2010, 07:21:52 am
I've noticed the lack of yawns as well Phil. Unfortunately I try hard to avoid carbs, other than a bit of liver here and there, so can't corroborate the increase with additional carbs in the diet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on March 24, 2010, 09:43:06 am
sorry, couldn't resist.

I was about to concur earlier that I had diminished yawning, as I know for certain that when I yawn in front of the GF speaking that she gets rather miffed. But I yawned just earlier and I don't really consume many carbs. I do personally attribute it at least somewhat to poor quality REM sleep but the info you listed is interesting. Certainly not new to the cancer/fermentation link, but how exactly due you see the yawning being a factor, do you think see it allowing for greater uptake of oxygen as with deeper breath? Or just as some kind of negative symptom/indication of depleted oxygen? Don't dog's yawn alot -c commercially fed at least - maybe monitoring carnivorous dogs is a better control than humans who might have other issues at play?

on basic googling - not necessarily from a reliable source - it does list Insufficient oxygen in blood as a possible cause as also opioid withdrawal, so perhaps it is linked to detox on an all raw diet. I do know the Primals think berries can trigger certain kinds of detox.

Also apparently to the ancient Greeks and Mayans, yawning was a sign which indicated that the soul of the person yawning was trying to run away from the body. So maybe meat eating isn't as soulless if there is less yawning. heh
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: wodgina on March 24, 2010, 09:52:08 am
I find when I yawn it usually means I'm resetting my brain. I'm going from anxious to relaxed.

Yawning opens ups the cranuim.

If some has a heart attack and the yawns afterwards it means they are improving and things are looking up. This diet does some interesting things but most of the time you don't even notice them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on March 24, 2010, 11:24:38 am
    Very interesting. 

    When my son was vegan with this illness, he was yawning all the time and he was finding it very bothersome.  Eating a high fat animal product (dairy/honey) based diet, he rarely ever yawns and feels much better about so much less yawning.  In the early middle of this Winter we couldn't get any usable butter (nor cream).  He got lots of yawns and he did find that very bothersome.  When we got lots of cream and usable butter, the yawns went back away.

.. Otto Heinrich Warburg, MD won the Nobel prize for his findings on the respiration of cells, particularly cancer cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis). Warburg found that cancer cells thrive in an anaerobic environment, because they get their energy from an anaerobic fuel source. What is that anaerobic fuel source? The anaerobic fermentation of glucose into pyruvate, presumably fueled by dietary carbs (whether only certain types of carbs provide the fuel and others don't, I don't know), as Warburg indicated in his 1966 lecture at a meeting of Nobel laureates:

"Cancer, above all other diseases, has countless secondary causes. But, even for cancer, there is only one prime cause. Summarized in a few words, the prime cause of cancer is the replacement of the respiration of oxygen in normal body cells by a fermentation of sugar." ("The Prime Cause and Prevention of Cancer," Revised Lindau Lecture, http://healingtools.tripod.com/primecause1.html/)

This toxic anaerobic process apparently bypasses the mitochondria and is apparently also found in Alzheimer's disease http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis#Alzheimer.27s_disease, and doubtless other diseases of civilization as well. Because of this process, some believe that ketogenic diets are potentially effective treatments of cancer.

Believe it or not, I think that carb-induced yawning may be another (far more benign, of course) effect of this process and that it may have implications for athletic performance, since efficient oxygen use and mitochondria are so important in aerobic athletic activities. It could also just be mere fluke coincidence that I experience this no-yawning phenomenon while I avoid plant carbs...

    I notice some change in me too reference carbs/very low carbs, that corroborates this theory.  It's not as big of a difference in yawning for me as you guys though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on March 24, 2010, 11:58:05 am
Funny that you thought of yawning paleophil.

now that you mention it I realize I don't remember the last time I yawned...
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 25, 2010, 10:01:05 am
...I was about to concur earlier that I had diminished yawning, as I know for certain that when I yawn in front of the GF speaking that she gets rather miffed. But I yawned just earlier and I don't really consume many carbs.
I didn't mean to imply there's necessarily absolute zero yawning on ZC. I still occasionally yawn, but it's pretty rare (probably less than once a week, actually, but I haven't been tracking it carefully, so I was being conservative and granting the possibility of once a week)--I used the term "no-yawning" for simplicity (just like "zero carb", which is not literally zero carb) and hoped it wouldn't cause confusion. It's more of a mouthful to say "near-zero-yawning on ZC," but if the latter term will make things clearer, I'll use it.

Quote
how exactly due you see the yawning being a factor, do you think see it allowing for greater uptake of oxygen as with deeper breath?
That's what I remember being told as a youth by some teachers (who have loads of experience with yawning youths :D ). When I noticed not long ago that I was rarely yawning and was no longer yawning in contagious response to other people doing so, I remembered being told about yawning being due to oxygen deficiency (though I wasn't completely convinced of it at the time) and I also remembered that anaerobic bacteria are the deadly ones, and Warburg on cancer cells being anaerobic  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis)and getting their fuel from anaerobic respiration (aka anaerobic fermentation (http://science.jrank.org/pages/322/Anaerobic-Fermentation.html#ixzz0j63ANmCZ)), and wondered if there could be connections between it all.

There seems to be a general principle of oxygen = good, no oxygen = bad. Here are some more examples of no oxygen = bad:
> Anaerobic fermentation of sugars from grapes, grains, etc. produces alcohol, an addictive toxin (http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-101.html).
> Anaerobic digestion produces methane, an asphyxiating, oxygen-displacing gas (asphyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#Potential_health_effects). Cattle that eat feeds heavy in poorly digested carbs like cereal grains and soy emit higher levels of methane gas in their flatulence. Humans who eat poorly digested carbs also tend to flatulate more (I rarely flatulate any more, BTW, believe it or not).
> Anaerobic respiration/fermentation in fast twitch muscle fibers that rely on quick spurts of anaerobic fuel produces "lactic acid that accumulates within the cells [and] eventually leads to muscle fatigue and cramp." (http://science.jrank.org/pages/322/Anaerobic-Fermentation.html)

There appears to be at least one exception to this general principle: improved health benefits of foods treated with lactic acid fermentation, such as sauerkraut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerkraut#Health_benefits), yogurt (http://www.griffined.com/pages/Resp_yogurt.pdf) and kimchi, although part of the process of fermenting these foods and alcohol is aerobic. I don't do well on yogurt and I don't care for the taste of sauerkraut or any other vinegared food, so I haven't experimented with these foods myself, but others here have reported benefits from them. Interestingly, the foods that can be fermented purely aerobically (high meat and stink fish) and without producing vinegar appear to be the most healthful of all the fermented foods.

Quote
Don't dog's yawn alot -c commercially fed at least - maybe monitoring carnivorous dogs is a better control than humans who might have other issues at play?
Big cats that are obligate carnivores also yawn, and yawning among wild carnivores is the only thing that doesn't fit so far. Big cats are big organ eaters, but whether there's enough carbs in the organs they eat to cause yawning, I don't know. However, yawning cats don't answer the question of why I and some others yawn less on ZC, and why my yawning increases when I eat carbs.

Quote
it does list Insufficient oxygen in blood as a possible cause as also opioid withdrawal,
Interesting, can you share some links? It makes sense that oxygen-starved blood could be the main link between oxygen deprivation at the cellular level and at the systemic level.

It is true that cereal grains produce opioids in the body, but I wasn't aware that fruits did. Alcohol produced by anaerobic fermentation of fruits (and other carbs) does have similar effects on humans as opioids ("Alcohol and opioids: possible interactions of clinical importance," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2821747).

Quote
so perhaps it is linked to detox on an all raw diet.
I'm not a big fan of the term "detox," as it is very vague and used in multiple and even contradictory ways by different people and is frequently used by vegans/vegetarians to explain away all sorts of nasty side effects of their diets and people selling questionable products, so I don't have much interest in that avenue of exploration, but you are of course free to explore that if you wish.

Quote
I do know the Primals think berries can trigger certain kinds of detox.
I've noticed yawning is produced by all fruits I've tried, not just berries. Berries actually seem to produce less yawning than some other fruits I've tried.


Funny that you thought of yawning paleophil.

now that you mention it I realize I don't remember the last time I yawned...
Yes, as I recall, the first time I noticed I wasn't yawning much on ZC was when one co-worker yawned and then another yawned in the usual contagious fashion, but I didn't. It was one of the rare times in my life when I didn't yawn contagiously and didn't even have to stifle a yawn. I thought that was odd, then I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I had yawned. I wondered if it could be related to my ZC diet of the time. Later on when I cheated and ate some carbs I yawned quite a bit, adding some confirmation. Each time I've had significant carbs since then I've yawned gapingly within a day of eating them, while rarely yawning gapingly at any other times.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on March 25, 2010, 11:23:01 am
Quote
Interesting, can you share some links? It makes sense that oxygen-starved blood could be the main link between oxygen deprivation at the cellular level and at the systemic level.

I think I just googled "why people yawn" or something

here is the site
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/yawning_excessively.htm

its basically just a list which is why I didn't cite it. It looks like there are plenty of articles and such though.

btw, you can make sauerkraut with just salt, and I believe some people claim to make it with just cabbage if you are ever inclined :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 29, 2010, 10:49:38 pm
I received my Multistix and luckily the numbers look good today despite my facultatively carnivorous diet. That's somewhat comforting, but I'll need to do more tests to get a better idea of where I stand.

pH: 6.0
Specific Gravity: 1.015
KETONES:   40

I had a good dental cleaning today. The hygeinist used a heavy-duty scraper on the tooth hole that used to go all the way to the root and thus be extremely painful to clean. There was zero pain. Simply amazing. Unfortunately, I still have significant plaque, though it comes off more easily. I'm hoping that CLO and vitamins A, D3 and K2 will eventually help some more with that.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on March 30, 2010, 09:14:06 am
Unfortunately, I still have significant plaque, though it comes off more easily. I'm hoping that CLO and vitamins A, D3 and K2 will eventually help some more with that.

At least for me, the D-3 has immediate effects on plaque buildup, although I may be more attuned to that than most. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 30, 2010, 09:47:01 am
Yes, I think I am more prone to plaque than most, as I appear to have excess calcium phosphate in my saliva and my lower teeth are tipped, providing excellent places for plaque to accumulate. My upper teeth do have less plaque than in the past, though they still accumulate too much.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on March 30, 2010, 07:14:23 pm
Can you get plaque build-up on ZC(even if you don't brush your teeth)? How does D3 reduce it?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 30, 2010, 07:43:02 pm
Yes, especially if you don't brush your teeth. I don't remember exactly how D3 reduces plaque, but I do remember reading about it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on March 30, 2010, 08:55:16 pm
For the past ~2months perhaps I've not brushed my teeth. I have been using toothpicks though so there isn't stuff stuck in them. Do you think I am making a mistake not brushing my teeth?

I've had no sort of pain, but sometimes, it does feel like there is a sort of film over my teeth. Is this bad, and why? It seems to depend on what, and when I've eaten, whether I've had good sleep etc.. I don't know which of these affect it, but that kind of thing. I had bad sleep last night and I'm noticing it now.

By the way, if you'd rather this didn't take up space in your journal, there is a topic 'brushing teeth' where it could move to.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 31, 2010, 06:42:30 am
Q: Do you think I am making a mistake not brushing my teeth?

A: Possibly. Can't know for sure without seeing your teeth and gums. You should definitely get it checked out by a hygeinist/dentist at some point, rather than just assume it's OK.

Q: "I've had no sort of pain, but sometimes, it does feel like there is a sort of film over my teeth. Is this bad, and why?"

A: Yes. Film can lead to plaque and gingivitis.

Q: It seems to depend on what, and when I've eaten, whether I've had good sleep etc.. I don't know which of these affect it, but that kind of thing. I had bad sleep last night and I'm noticing it now.

I get very little film while eating carnivorously. Mouth breathing during sleep can dry out the mouth, which can also promote gingivitis, plaque and caries.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 31, 2010, 10:21:07 am
pH: 5.5
Specific Gravity: 1.015
Urinary Ketones: 80
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on March 31, 2010, 11:25:18 am
Can you get plaque build-up on ZC(even if you don't brush your teeth)? How does D3 reduce it?

I don't know, but there is a current scientific study going on about it.  I have been corresponding with one of the scientists involved with the study.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 02, 2010, 05:42:17 am
pH: 6.0
Specific Gravity: 1.015
KETONES:   40

OK, my multistix urinalyses have been fairly consistently negative for any bad indicators and the bubbling in my urine has reduced some (though it's still bubbly at times), so I think it's reasonably safe to say that I'm doing fine as regards the urinary system. Little or no indications of kidney stone risk despite eating a facultatively carnivorous diet for over 8 months. The pH is low compared to most people, but it's staying above 5.5 most of the time, so I'm not overly concerned about it as long as the specific gravity stays within the "normal" range.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 03, 2010, 10:33:27 pm
I did some searching and found that my specific gravity may be somewhat high for a person with a history of kidney stones. According to three of the links below, I should be trying to get my SG to below 1.010.

One thing I've learned about test values is that different labs and other sources tend to have different views on what is "normal", but I will try to increase my fluid intake and shoot for the 1.010 reading. I think getting below that would probably require too much fluid intake for me to handle at the moment. The last link questions whether reagent strips are even a valid test, but the more accurate refractometer costs over $100 and the standard urinalysis performed by most physicians involves "dip stick or tablet reagent," so most apparently feel it is sufficiently accurate for general use, though they may also use microscopy or 24-hour collections.

------

"Since the sp gr of the glomerular filtrate in Bowman's space ranges from 1.007 to 1.010, any measurement below this range indicates hydration and any measurement above it indicates relative dehydration." Specific Gravity (sp gr), ttp://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/URINE/URINE.html

"If the specific gravity of your urine is under 1.007, you are hydrated. If your urine is above 1.010, you are dehydrated." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinalysis

"For many patients it is not easy to determine whether or not their fluid intake is adequate. A good general rule of thumb is that if a patient's urine is clear, their fluid intake is adequate. If their urine becomes more yellow to brown, then they should strive to increase their fluid intake. Some patients who are highly motivated may wish to purchase urine dipsticks from their pharmacy or supermarket. Patients may check their level of urine concentration by checking the urinary specific gravity on the dipstick. Patients at risk for kidney stone formation should attempt to keep the urinary specific gravity less than 1.010." http://urologystone.com/CH07TreatmentOptions/fluidIntake.html

"In conclusion, our results suggest that the refractometer is a reliable measure of urine specific gravity. In contrast, the hydrometer and reagent strips were not reliable, nor were they valid measures of urine specific gravity when compared with refractometry. ... Future research is warranted to assess whether a urine specific-gravity measurement of 1.020 as selected by the NCAA is an appropriate cut-off value to indicate euhydration." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC314390/
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 17, 2010, 06:51:40 am
Interesting phenomenon I noticed: I seem to be exhaling more steam than I used to. This is probably related to my feeling warmer too. Both effects increase when I eat more animal fat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 21, 2010, 07:00:34 am
Some time ago I read a recommendation for Life Extension Super K (with advanced K2 complex) by Richard Nikoley of Free the Animal. Richard said it cleared up his dental plaque. Don't know for sure if it's related, but after taking about 30 of the softgels in combination with the Carlson Vitamin K2 that wasn't having any noticeable effect (I'm just using them up), I've noticed that my plaque seems significantly reduced. I think the key may be that the Life Extension brand contains fat (a small amount of "MCT oil"). Vitamin K2 is a fat soluble vitamin and consuming fats is necessary to efficiently absorb fat soluble vitamins.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 24, 2010, 05:56:30 am
I have what seems to be my first mold on air-dried 100% grassfed ground beef and amazingly it has no noticeable odor or taste. Maybe it could be some sort of exuding of fat or something. I noticed that it only occurred on the meat that had stayed damp one night because it was partially covered. Dampness suggests mold, but I've never heard of tasteless, odorless mold. I did some googling and did find links re: odorless mold found one re: nearly tastless mold.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 09, 2010, 02:20:13 am
After reading a bunch of posts about iodine and T3 in another forum and seeing that I have or used to have many of the symptoms of hypothyroid except weight gain (and I have been getting warmer, rather than colder, but in the past I was much colder than most people), I decided to try Dr. Ron's iodine and since then I have been able to digest carbs better than as far back as I can remember. It could be just coincidence, but I will continue to monitor and report.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on May 09, 2010, 04:51:58 am
I'm going to experiment with iodine too, in the form of lugols so that I can easily control the dosage. What other forums are you talking about? I've read through several pages of the curezone iodine forums with quite a few reporting positive results, though there were some that fared poorly.

Heres a good discussion on one person's iodine and dessicated thyroid adventure - http://blog.dianahsieh.com/search/label/Thyroid
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 09, 2010, 06:16:46 am
Dr. Ron's iodine is supposed to be in the same daily dosage as Dr. Lugol's original dosage. I haven't taken a full dose yet, but already seem to be improving. Thanks for mentioning dessicated thyroid--it reminded me that I forgot to mention that with my Dr. Ron's order I also got some "Organ Delight" and started to take a couple of those each night (full daily dose is 6 capsules), though I forgot on a couple days. It doesn't contain thyroid, though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 10, 2010, 10:42:32 am
I bought some certified organic lacto-fermented sauerkraut at the market, since it's supposed to help the gut flora and thereby the bowels and people in both this forum and the DC forum recommended it. It has no vinegar added, so it doesn't taste as nasty to me as the sauerkraut in delis, though it doesn't taste good either. About an hour after eating it I got the first significant throat mucus I've had in months. That has always been a bad sign for me in the past. I'm thinking it must be acidic, since acidic foods do that to me (apparently when my GI tract gets irritated my body produces mucus to protect it).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on May 10, 2010, 05:18:18 pm
I've made my own sauerkraut for years, used organic cabbage when it was available.
Good when I ate cooked pork, not so much for anything raw. YMMV
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 10, 2010, 05:19:02 pm
I tried eating some fermented sauerkraut after a few years on rawpalaeo. It didn't harm me either way, but I was unpleasantly astonished at how excessively large my stools were afterwards.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 16, 2010, 04:16:17 am
People say not to criticize things unless you've tried them. I'm also a curious sort. So after seeing many posts on the supposed benefits of foods I haven't tried before I tend to get curious about trying them. Some claim that dairy sensitive folks like me should be able to handle ghee, so I tried homemade ghee but got mildly ill. It's possible that the bad results were due to poor processing on my part, so I tried some high-quality ghee sold in my local healthfood market. Like the homemade it tasted good--like butterscotch. After 2 tbsp I started feeling the same nausea I felt after eating the homemade ghee, so I stopped (I normally eat much more fat than this when eating suet). The next morning I had a splitting headache, worsened constipation, dry lips, and mild flank pain. Both bad experiences could have been coincidences, but I don't have enough of a reason to eat dairy products to bother experimenting any more with ghee.

This still leaves raw cultured butter untried, which I may try in the future. I actually handled pasteurized cultured butter better than ghee, but it still was a net negative. Raw cultured butter is inconvenient to acquire and expensive, so I would have to do very well on it to bother with buying it regularly, but some experience with it will better inform my discussions with others on dairy and put the various points of view on dairy to the test (at least as they apply to me).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Inger on May 16, 2010, 05:21:59 am
PaleoPhil,

after reading about the oxycholesterins in Ghee, I loosed all my interest in trying it. All. It have huge amounts of oxycholesterin, much much more than butter!
That might be why you got sick..  ;)

Inger
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 16, 2010, 06:42:14 am
This article - "Does ghee contain oxidized cholesterol?" http://freeradicalfederation.com/GheeLowersCholesterol - cites a study that claims that only "oxidized ghee" was found to contain substantial oxydized cholesterol, whereas "native ghee" did not. Do you know the difference?


BTW, the headache and hangover feeling I had the morning after eating ghee was fairly quickly eliminated after I ate raw beef and suet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 16, 2010, 06:16:34 pm
I would like to add a note of caution:- One of the worst things that I encountered were Primal Dieters repeatedly telling me to try a dozen different quack remedies in order to "get used to" raw dairy. I was told to try raw butter(I was told that it was physically impossible for anyone to be allergic/have problems with raw butter); I was told to drink raw milk only at room-temperature, to eat raw  cheese as aged as possible, to put raw honey into any raw milk I drank, to only drink A2-protein-derived milk, or only drink fermented raw milk. When I tried all of the above methods(among others I can't recall) and told people online that none of the above methods worked re resolving my raw dairy allergy, I was basically blamed as being responsible with some rubbish WAPF-derived claims being made re  leaky gut and that, eventually, as I healed, I was told  I would become able to handle raw dairy with ease. That was another lie as when I last did a raw-dairy experiment 6 years later, several years after resolving the various health-problems, I again had problems with it.

In other words, I wasted a whole 6 months of my life trying out those ridiculous "methods" purely on the dubious say-so of people who assured me(likely falsely in most cases given the extreme nature of their posts) that they did fine on raw dairy. It's a generally logical assumption that if one does badly with 1 type of a raw food, then however differently it may be processed, then that food is not likely suitable for one, healthwise, in the long-term. Sure, eliminating most or all of specific toxins may resolve some immediate problems, but it's a sure bet that if you react to just 1 type of that food, that with the other types of that food you will experience, in the long-term, some nasty side-effects which creep up on you slowly without being noticed. At least, I've often had people corresponding with me re raw diets who assured me they actually did fine with raw butter but not other raw dairy, but who eventually admitted to me, years later, that their health suffered a bit as a result.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 16, 2010, 09:49:05 pm
I am very glad I dropped the ghee and lard.  I just really love eating only raw ZC foods. I not only feel and look my best, but I have a sense of well-being of eating as close to nature as possible. I really believe raw allows us to get undisturbed the protein, fat, minerals and vitamins that are altered or destroyed in cooking. I do not fear a seared, super rare steak on occasion, but anything beyond that, I only eat cooked meat and fat if I have to, which is rare!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 16, 2010, 11:22:42 pm
Yeah, thanks. Don't worry, I don't plan on doing a 6 month experiment. It will probably be a one-time thing with a small amount of raw butter that I'm hoping a friend will share with me. I'm mainly curious as to whether the negative effects will be any less than with pasteurized cultured pastured butter/ghee and raw milk. Raw cultured butter would seem to be the least problematic dairy product possible, so if I try that I think I can say I've tried the best dairy has to offer. Of course, the raw dairy advocates will say that I didn't try it long enough or make some other excuse, like they did with Tyler, but I won't let that sway me into longer term experiments.

One other interesting thing I noted was that the ghee, while overall tasting pleasantly like butterscotch (and, surprisingly, both the homemade and market-bought had a bit of sweetness to it), had a little bit of an unpleasant burnt taste to me--even the high-quality, expensive stuff from the market. I remember noticing that in my youth when eating butterscotch candies too, except now it seemed to be a little more pronounced--possibly due to my raw eating. It also seemed like the last couple times I ate tallow I liked it less than I used to. I also noticed at the gourmet brunch buffet I ate from recently that I only liked the raw/smoked foods (like lox) and still-juicy cooked foods, and the thoroughly cooked foods seemed to be more unpleasant than usual and bloated my stomach pretty badly. So I think I may be getting to the point where I may not like cooked foods that much any more. I know a lot of rawists, such as Tyler and Lex, have reported this happening. I would prefer to be able to continue eating cooked foods at social occasions and when nothing else is available. Lex seems to be able to handle that, so I'm hoping I will be able to continue handling it as well.

One classy and encouraging thing about the brunch buffett was that there were no bagels or cream cheese with the lox--just capers and chopped red onions. Years ago I would only eat the bagels and cream cheese when served with lox. Now I eat the lox and skip the bagels and cream cheese. The raw texture of the smoked salmon lox, as well as sushi/sashimi, used to bother me, but not any more. Now the thought of lox or sashimi makes me salivate a little. It also makes me wish I had fat (other than cream cheese) to go with it. They didn't have much fat at the brunch (just some bacon and a thin white sauce on a skinless chicken dish) which was the main downside along with the overcooking.

One thing I'm curious about is, while I like the taste of sweet butterscotch somewhat, the idea of eating it with meat doesn't thrill me. So I'm a bit puzzled as to why some carnivore-heavy dieters love eating ghee with their meat, though I know some folks here love raw honey with meat. I guess I should try the honey with meat thing to see if I like that at all. I've had too much of a mental block with it to try it up to this point. I have tried eating fat with honey, though, which makes sense to me because it's like eating the fatty grubcomb with the honey comb. I guess I could think of the meat as being like the protein portion of the grubs.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 17, 2010, 01:19:31 am
I found a partial answer to my question at http://freeradicalfederation.com/GheeLowersCholesterol ...

Quote
from the full text of the above cited study ["Hypocholesterolemic effect of anhydrous milk fat ghee is mediated by increasing the secretion of biliary lipids."]:

The unheated ghee contained 0.16% cholesterol, of which 1.0% of total sterols were oxysterols ; the corresponding values in oxidized ghee were 0.051% and 17.2%, respectively.

However, I've never heard of "unheated ghee." Have any of you? I'm guessing that it actually was lower-heated ghee, but I don't have access to the full text of the study.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 17, 2010, 10:10:58 am
Phil, I have also found that I'm increasingly not enjoying cooked meat. I went to a Brazilian steakhouse on a date, and could only eat the super rare meat. The meat cooked beyond that was not palatable.

I also share your experience with ghee. At first, I enjoyed the buttery flavor. Then it started making me feel sick, and putting it on my ground beef was repulsive. The same happened with lard. Both started tasting too sweet and I was not wanting them like I wanted raw fats.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 17, 2010, 06:40:39 pm
I suppose the addictive hormones in dairy are still active in ghee which would explain them being favoured by cooked ZCers.

 I've tried mixing raw honey and raw honeycomb with raw meats but I loathed the taste.There's just too much of a clash of tastes involved.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 18, 2010, 10:02:46 am
I love the subtle, not at all sweet taste of raw bone marrow. I was thinking of getting raw back fat as well. This would be pork fat that is raw and not at all rendered.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 18, 2010, 11:07:39 am
The grainfed marrow at the supermarket seems to always be too moist and musty when I buy it, possibly because it is stored in plastic and not vacuum-packed. I air-dried it for a day this time and that seemed to improve the flavor.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on May 20, 2010, 11:03:38 am
I love the subtle, not at all sweet taste of raw bone marrow.

I've had some bone marrow that was literally as sweet as sugar.  The first time it happened I kept looking at the knife I was digging it out of the bone with, thinking maybe it the knife had somehow gotten some sugar on it.

That's rare, though.  I've only gotten that super-sweet marrow twice, out of hundreds of times.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 23, 2010, 04:18:22 am
Hypodipsia - thirst signals alone are not enough for me

One of my stubborn remaining symptoms is dry, flaky skin in the scalp, eyebrows and bridge of the nose and it sometimes extends to my forehead and nose. Based on my multistix I'm still a little dehydrated, so I think that's a factor. Presumably the dry flakes in the scalp are dandruff, except that much of it looks exactly like the dry skin that sometimes appears on my forehead, so I'm not sure what the difference is, if any.

My body has difficulty staying hydrated and I don't get much in the way of thirst signals to drink. I've learned that this is called hypodipsia and one thing it has been connected to is laxity of smooth muscle tissue in the stomach and back of the throat (http://www.drugs.com/news/lack-strong-thirst-signals-leads-elderly-drink-little-10383.html#ixzz0ocFQIcg8), which is not surprising, since I have laxity in smooth muscle tissue and ligaments in multiple areas of my body. This is common in connective tissue disorders, most of which I have a history of (http://www.ctds.info). So it looks like I’ve learned a bit more about the source of one of my remaining unresolved issues. I guess I’ll need to continue indefinitely trying to force myself to drink more water than my thirst dictates. I’ve learned that for some people—including many of the elderly (who have been damaged by SAD for many years)--it’s dangerous to rely solely on thirst to determine how much water you drink.

Hypodipsia can also be “related to dysfunction of the thirst osmoreceptor in the anterior hypothalamus.” (Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 23, 2010, 10:09:20 am
I don't care about thirst or hunger signals, to be honest. I drinks TONS of water and tea all day as I fast, sometimes 3 8oz. cups per half an hour. I must average over 100-120 oz. of water/green tea/herbal teas a day.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 24, 2010, 04:07:35 am
Heated honey spikes my sugar a bit further than raw, based on a test I did today.

12:08pm fasting glucose after 14 hours 89 mg/dl
12:12pm  ate 2 tbsps McLure's of New England Clover Honey (slight burning of tongue, mild nausea)
1:12pm postprandial glucose 1 hour after eating 210 mg/dl

I forgot to do the 2 hour test until about 2.75 hours after eating the honey. The reading was down to 113 mg/dl, but that's not a fair comparison to the 2 hour test of the raw.

There does appear to be less effect on insulin by raw honey than heated, but raw honey spiked my sugar much more than one would expect if the claims of some rawists that raw honey doesn't spike blood sugar (because of some mysterious unknown "enzymes" or such in the raw honey) were correct for all.

It looks like I should severely limit or avoid all honey in my case.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: actionhero on May 24, 2010, 04:51:51 am
It looks like I should severely limit or avoid all honey in my case.

That's just how honey is. I get no blood sugar problems from any amount of fruit but honey even in small amounts starts the highs and lows like SAD candy. I think everybody experiences this on honey. Also it tastes way too strong, not pleasant at all.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 24, 2010, 05:39:46 am
I'm planning on testing my blood sugar response to some fruits too--at least berries.

Raw honey does taste far, far better to me than heated honey. I wish it had much less impact on my blood sugar, as raw honey is one of the best tasting foods I've tried, though it can cause some unpleasant burning feeling on my tongue even in small amounts and can cause a little bit of nausea if eaten excessively, though not nearly as much nausea as heated honey causes.

Heated honey also tends to give me an unpleasant scratchy feeling on the back of my throat. It always used to puzzle me when people claimed that honey soothed a scratchy throat and I found the opposite.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 24, 2010, 05:45:25 pm
That's just how honey is. I get no blood sugar problems from any amount of fruit but honey even in small amounts starts the highs and lows like SAD candy. I think everybody experiences this on honey. Also it tastes way too strong, not pleasant at all.
  Actually, quite a number of RVAFers have no such issues with raw honey.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 24, 2010, 11:29:53 pm
  Actually, quite a number of RVAFers have no such issues with raw honey.
Has anyone else measured their blood glucose after eating it? I'm curious about what results they got and whether anyone else experienced a spike in BG.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on May 25, 2010, 12:38:49 am
Has anyone else measured their blood glucose after eating it? I'm curious about what results they got and whether anyone else experienced a spike in BG.

    I've drank a bottle of glucose syrup (when I was vegan) and my bg didn't spike at all.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on May 25, 2010, 12:58:44 am
Isn't it normal for BG to spike every time you eat anything loaded with sucrose/glucose?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 25, 2010, 01:19:59 am
    I've drank a bottle of glucose syrup (when I was vegan) and my bg didn't spike at all.
Wow, that's unusual. Do you have any idea of what accounts for that?


After a couple weeks of trying sauerkraut, including eating as much as a bowlful at once, I didn't notice any benefits, didn't like the taste, and it causes belching and minor stomach discomfort in me, so I discarded the remainder.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 25, 2010, 09:30:25 am
Hey, Phil! I hope you don't find this hostile--you KNOW me--but I find your constant attempts to experiment with adding carbs--berries, honey, greens--baffling. Why bother? What possible benefit? If you are eating meat and organs, why would you want to add inferior sources of energy/nutrients to your diet, especially when they cause you distress, and you feel good on raw ZC?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 26, 2010, 09:28:09 am
I'm finding that raw ground beef doesn't air-dry well in the current warm and humid weather, so I'm back to storing it in glass containers in the fridge.

Hey, Phil! I hope you don't find this hostile--you KNOW me--but I find your constant attempts to experiment with adding carbs--berries, honey, greens--baffling. Why bother? What possible benefit? If you are eating meat and organs, why would you want to add inferior sources of energy/nutrients to your diet, especially when they cause you distress, and you feel good on raw ZC?
:D It doesn't bother me, Katelyn, no, and yes I know you and knew you wouldn't like it, and I know that Tyler and a good friend of mine think the exact opposite--that I'm too pro ZC/VLC and too anti fruits and other plant foods. My idea all along was to get down to a base that didn't cause me problems--nondairy ZC--and then see if I'm able to add back any foods to it from there, and if none of them worked out then I would be fine with ZC including some organs. I'm not yet a fan of most organs, though I'm handling liver a bit better, and while my nutrient deficiencies are much improved, some have not resolved completely, so I think it might be beneficial to include some nutrient-rich plant foods also. Some foods I added, such as young greens and herbs, don't appear to be causing me any problems and I seem to be handling berries somewhat better, though it's still too early to tell.

I also wanted to put some of the dietary claims to the test and see what works and what doesn't, at least for me. For example, I was skeptical of the claim that raw honey doesn't spike blood sugar. I put it to the test and it spiked mine. I always try to keep an open mind, so I'll do so as regards other people and I'll listen to anyone else who has tested their blood sugar after eating raw honey, but my skepticism was warranted in my own case. It is interesting that raw honey doesn't spike my blood sugar quite as much as heated, so I'm glad I did the test and found out that interesting tidbit, but it definitely is not going to become a regular food for me. By doing that test, I also think I may have discovered that I'm more insulin resistant than either I or my physicians realized (which Dr. Harris suspects why people like me and you and Lex seem to do better on ZC instead of 5% carbs like him), so that's an even more important bit of information I've learned. I'll test berries the next time I buy them and if they spike my blood sugar badly too then I'll probably be finished with fruits for the foreseeable future, unless someone can give me a good reason why I should eat something that spikes my blood sugar.

You provide a helpful counterpoint to Tyler, so I getting a fairly wide range of perspectives. I'm curious as to whether you see any problem with seaweeds which are protists (sort of in-between plants and animals), rather than plants. They apparently do contain high levels of bromine that may be a problem for people with high TSH levels, but I don't think I eat enough for that to be a problem and they don't contain antinutrients. Plus they provide some salt which might be useful given that I don't consume much blood. Satya made a pretty good case for them. Plus, it turns out that some peoples that have been eating seaweeds for a long time have incorporated the genes of some marine bactertia into their intestines, resulting in superior digestion of seaweeds (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/full/464837a.html) and since seaweeds are native to the coastal areas of the lands of my ancestors (http://www.eufic.org/article/en/artid/Seaweed-exploring-its-dietary-value/), it's possible that I may be one of the people who digests them better. I enjoy the variety they offer a little bit, but they are expensive and I could live without them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 26, 2010, 10:03:28 am
I am so glad we are friends, Phil, and we can discuss this. I have much respect for both you and Tyler, so enjoy this debate. Is it distaste for liver that is your problem, or digestion? I'd like you to elaborate on this. What makes you think you are not getting all you need from raw ZC?

I admit to my ignorance on protocists. Honestly, I think seaweed eating would have been rare, even for Eskimos. Is there much research in this area? That said, seaweeds do appear very low in carbs and high in perhaps iodine. Why is bromine needed?

My preference is to stick to ZC animal foods. That said, I have no issues with energy (if I eat enough) or digestion. I don't see any value to adding carby modern fruits.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 26, 2010, 10:13:44 am
I am so glad we are friends, Phil, and we can discuss this. I have much respect for both you and Tyler, so enjoy this debate. Is it distaste for liver that is your problem, or digestion? I'd like you to elaborate on this. What makes you think you are not getting all you need from raw ZC?
I'm still not thrilled by liver, though I think I'm getting used to it. I don't get all I need from any diet, as I still have some symptoms that suggest mild deficiencies (vitamin K and potassium and maybe iodine and who knows what). This despite the fact that I eat foods rich in these nutrients, such as shellfish and seaweed, so I also take foodlements like Dr. Ron's iodine, and fermented CLO and a partial dose of his multi.

Quote
I admit to my ignorance on protocists. Honestly, I think seaweed eating would have been rare, even for Eskimos. Is there much research in this area?
Yes, seaweed eating by coastal HGs and other traditional peoples in Arctic and temperate zones around the world has been well documented. Satya has discussed it too.

Quote
That said, seaweeds do appear very low in carbs and high in perhaps iodine. Why is bromine needed?
Don't know. I read a report that said that too much bromine from excessive seaweed can raise TSH levels. Every food can have down sides in some people, depending on genes, sensitivity, amount and frequency of intake, processing methods, etc.

Quote
My preference is to stick to ZC animal foods. That said, I have no issues with energy (if I eat enough) or digestion. I don't see any value to adding carby modern fruits.
Yes, I know, thanks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 26, 2010, 04:37:55 pm
re ZC-stance:- Perhaps it would be best not to use the slightly dodgy  phrase "tolerating carbs" to describe people who actually thrive on little or a lot of raw carbs.

As for the carb-experiments, like klowcarb, I really don't see the point re your trying carbs so soon - one should really just stick to what works re health.  makes more sense to try readding carbs after another couple of years on RZC, so as to determine whether your insulin-sensitivity issues or whatever re carbs are likely lifelong or not. Though, perhaps, you are concerned re not always having the right (high-quality raw animal) foods available all the time, and want to be able to have a more varied diet just in case.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on May 27, 2010, 10:04:02 am
The only way I can eat the liver is lightly soaked in lemon juice. It's not a favorite of mine either. Not like delicious bone marrow.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 29, 2010, 09:47:58 am
re ZC-stance:- Perhaps it would be best not to use the slightly dodgy  phrase "tolerating carbs" to describe people who actually thrive on little or a lot of raw carbs.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, TD. Can you point me to the quote where it says “tolerating carbs”? Thanks.

Quote
...perhaps, you are concerned re not always having the right (high-quality raw animal) foods available all the time, and want to be able to have a more varied diet just in case.
Yes, that's one of the reasons. There are other reasons too, such as making it easier to be more sociable and reducing the risks of exacerbating existing nutrient deficiencies or developing new ones. The more restrictive a diet the easier it is to miss out on some important nutrients, which is a point that Satya reinforced well for me. I don't eat as much organs as Lex does and I don't have access to animal blood, so being able to get the nutrients they contain in other ways might be helpful and might even enable me to stop taking the foodlements I'm taking, some of which are quite expensive.

Even the most carnivorous Inuits and wolves occasionally eat some plant carbs like berries and even some obligate carnivores eat plants--such as big cats that eat grass, possibly for medicinal reasons. So eating plants does not mean one is not carnivorous. I use the term mostly-raw facultative carnivore for a reason. Plus, some people manage to thrive on lots of fruits and veg, as you have pointed out repeatedly, so one possibility is that my carbohydrate intolerance indicates that there's some malfunction in my systems--possibly temporary. Even if Dr. Harris is right about plant carbs being totally unnecessary to the diet (which I'd rather not debate one way or the other right now), being able to eat some when meats are unavailable would make life easier.

Quote
As for the carb-experiments, like klowcarb, I really don't see the point re your trying carbs so soon ...   makes more sense to try readding carbs after another couple of years on RZC
That's ironic, you're one of the folks whose posts encouraged me to try to see if I can manage to handle keeping some carbs in my diet with your repeated warnings about the dying off of too many carb-digesting intestinal bacteria when going too long without carbs. Originally I thought that giving my system a break from carbs might reduce my carb intolerance by giving my body a chance to heal, but I found other reports supporting your claim, so there's a risk that my carbohydrate intolerance might worsen rather than improve if I don't eat any carbs and I agree with you and Dr. Harris that carbs are not pure poison for all. Based on your past posts, wouldn't going a couple of years without carbs kill off most of the carb-digesting bacteria?

Quote
one should really just stick to what works re health.
Sure, if it turns out that even raw fruits spike my BG excessively (which I will be testing next), even when eaten with fats, then I figure it will probably be best to avoid them as much as possible at this time. I don't have any plans to intentionally do things that damage my health long term, if that's what you mean. In order to stick to what works I need to find out what works for me. Have you ever tested what effect raw fruits have on your BG? It would be helpful if I had some numbers to compare to from someone who does well on fruits.

To summarize, I'm just trying to find out what works for me, both healthwise and convenience-wise. I have no preconceived notions and, like Lex, I'm not particularly interested in telling other people what to do. When I share my results it doesn't mean that I think they necessarily apply to anyone else. When I debate it's not to convince others as much as it is to learn and to put my thoughts to the test and see if they hold up to scrutiny. That's one reason why I'm not into rehashing old points with the same arguments. If I'm not learning anything new or helping someone else who's interested in learning then I don't see much point in debate. After all, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 29, 2010, 04:44:37 pm
I'm not sure what you're referring to, TD. Can you point me to the quote where it says “tolerating carbs”?

That was some time back. Don't know which post.

Quote
That's ironic, you're one of the folks whose posts encouraged me to try to see if I can manage to handle keeping some carbs in my diet with your repeated warnings about the dying off of too many carb-digesting intestinal bacteria when going too long without carbs. Originally I thought that giving my system a break from carbs might reduce my carb intolerance by giving my body a chance to heal, but I found other reports supporting your claim, so there's a risk that my carbohydrate intolerance might worsen rather than improve if I don't eat any carbs and I agree with you and Dr. Harris that carbs are not pure poison for all. Based on your past posts, wouldn't going a couple of years without carbs kill off most of the carb-digesting bacteria?

The point is that the intolerance towards carbs generally starts at a far earlier period than 2 years on VLC or ZC, more like weeks/months. Years of time on RZC shouldn't make it more difficult to readapt to carbs as all one needs is to build up enough carb-related bacteria(by simply eating lots of raw carbs) and getting the body to use the right enzymes etc.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 31, 2010, 04:09:54 am
That was some time back. Don't know which post.
If it was one of my posts you are referring to, the only thing I can think of that you might be referencing is that I discussed how I found that carbohydrate intolerance is a known medical condition. Since that is the medical term for it, I don't see a problem with it, but I'll consider any alternative medical terms you care to offer. I wasn't talking about anyone else when I was discussing my problems with plant carbs, so my posts were not meant to be a reflection on anyone else. My journal is mainly meant to be about my experience, not how I think others are doing or what they should eat, as it is not my purpose to tell anyone what to do (though if they ask for help I may try to offer some). My philosophy is similar to Lex's in this.

Quote
The point is that the intolerance towards carbs generally starts at a far earlier period than 2 years on VLC or ZC, more like weeks/months. Years of time on RZC shouldn't make it more difficult to readapt to carbs as all one needs is to build up enough carb-related bacteria(by simply eating lots of raw carbs) and getting the body to use the right enzymes etc.
I have tried to explain this to you several times, apparently without success. I had symptoms of carb intolerance before I cut the carbs down to VLC and I experienced improvements every step of the way while gradually reducing carbs. I didn't develop a carb intolerance after going VLC. If anything, the intolerance seems to be slightly less now. You seem to be bent on trying to ascribe problems with carb intolerance to VLC or ZC diets themselves for some reason. In my case it does not apply. I'll let others speak for themselves on this.

In the past I seem to recall you saying that not eating any carbs for too long would kill off the carb-eating bacteria and thus make a ZCer less able to handle carbs--and thus making eating a little bit of plant carbs from time to time a sensible approach, and thereby make VLC more sensible than ZC. Is that not right?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on May 31, 2010, 05:48:07 pm


The reference was a vague one to people who tolerate carbs, as I recall, distinguishing them from people(ie RZCers) who couldn't tolerate carbs. Whatever the case, "tolerate" isn't the right word to use in this regard as raw omnivores are fine with raw carbs, with many raw high-carbers(not raw vegans, of course) doing fine/thriving with them. "Tolerate" sounds like tolerating a poison.But who knows, maybe I'm guilty of using that word re zc diets, in the past - who knows?

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I have tried to explain this to you several times, apparently without success. I had symptoms of carb intolerance before I cut the carbs down to VLC and I experienced improvements every step of the way while gradually reducing carbs. I didn't develop a carb intolerance after going VLC. If anything, the intolerance seems to be slightly less now. You seem to be bent on trying to ascribe problems with carb intolerance to VLC or ZC diets themselves for some reason. In my case it does not apply. I'll let others speak for themselves on this.

In the past I seem to recall you saying that not eating any carbs for too long would kill off the carb-eating bacteria and thus make a ZCer less able to handle carbs--and thus making eating a little bit of plant carbs from time to time a sensible approach, and thereby make VLC more sensible than ZC. Is that not right?
No that's not right at all. I suggested that eating only a small amounts of carbs re a VLC diet(<2%?/5%?), in the long-term, meant one gradually became less able to handle raw carbs. One needs more than a tiny bit of raw carbs to ensure the right kind of bacteria-levels, use of enzymes etc. to get used to raw carbs.

As for the above claim, that's also wrong. I was talking in a general sense, that raw animal foods require totally different bacteria-levels, different enzymes etc., so that long-term periods on VLC(and shorter for RZC?)  commonly lead to increased intolerance towards raw carbs, even if there was no carb-intolerance there before that stage. Those who were already unable to do well on raw carbs, for the most part, keep on not being able to deal with carbs, and generally progressively feel worse when they increase the carb-intake once again. In other words, for the latter, it is extremely unlikely that they would regain some form of ability to handle raw carbs until many years have passed, if at all.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 02, 2010, 08:04:46 am
..."Tolerate" sounds like tolerating a poison.But who knows, maybe I'm guilty of using that word re zc diets, in the past - who knows?
OK, I can't think of better terminology to use (carbohydrate unthriving/thriving seems a lot more awkward than carbohydrate intolerance/tolerance), so I'll stick with intolerance/tolerance for now, but thanks for letting me know about potential sensitivity re: the term "tolerance." I didn't intend the negative connotation you thought of, but I'll try to remember to make that clear when I use it.

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No that's not right at all. I suggested that eating only a small amounts of carbs re a VLC diet(<2%?/5%?), in the long-term, meant one gradually became less able to handle raw carbs. One needs more than a tiny bit of raw carbs to ensure the right kind of bacteria-levels, use of enzymes etc. to get used to raw carbs.
Awe, that stinks for me. I don't handle more than a small amount of carbs well, so that's not really an option for me. I was hoping there might be some bacterial benefit from eating a small amount of carbs.

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Those who were already unable to do well on raw carbs, for the most part, keep on not being able to deal with carbs, and generally progressively feel worse when they increase the carb-intake once again. In other words, for the latter, it is extremely unlikely that they would regain some form of ability to handle raw carbs until many years have passed, if at all.
OK, then it sounds like I have no option but to stick to VLC/ZC for the rest of my life. That has been becoming increasingly clear to me too. I like fruits quite a bit, so I was hoping there might be some chance that I could handle 5-10% or so of calories as raw fruits in the future, but it was a dream rather than an expectation. Thanks for being straight with me and not sugar-coating it (pardon the pun :) ).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on June 02, 2010, 03:47:34 pm

OK, then it sounds like I have no option but to stick to VLC/ZC for the rest of my life. That has been becoming increasingly clear to me too. I like fruits quite a bit, so I was hoping there might be some chance that I could handle 5-10% or so of calories as raw fruits in the future, but it was a dream rather than an expectation.


I don't think so. You'll more likely have to stick to VLC for a further few months or years but probably not for the rest of your life. Healing logically takes time, is not a simple linear process but involves sudden decisive improvements.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 03, 2010, 07:11:46 am
Thanks, Alphagruis. I hope you're right.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: carnivore on June 04, 2010, 12:12:27 am
Awe, that stinks for me. I don't handle more than a small amount of carbs well, so that's not really an option for me. I was hoping there might be some bacterial benefit from eating a small amount of carbs.

What symptoms do you experiment when you eat fruits ?
What makes you think carbs is the culprit ? Do you have the same symptoms when you eat other source of carbs (honey for instance) ?
Have you tried different kind of fruits ? I mean there is quiet a difference between say an apple, a banana, a coconut or a watermelon. For instance the last has very few fibers and it is generally the raw fibers that gives troubles.

After one year of ZC, I was virtually enable to eat even a small amount of fruit without symptoms. Now that I have reintroduced them slowly, I can eat lots of fruits as long as I eat only a small portion at once. Otherwise the sudden excess sugar disturbs my hormonal balance.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 04, 2010, 07:25:16 am
I don't mean to be rude, but I've covered all these questions before in this journal and elsewhere in the forum and I'd rather not have to go over it all again if I can avoid it (that's partly the purpose of this journal--to not have to answer the same questions repeatedly). I do know that different fruits have different sugar and fiber levels. In my case the sugars seem to be more correlated with the problems than the fiber, but I also do better on a lower fiber diet, so fiber could be part of the problem too. Thanks for sharing your encouraging experience.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 16, 2010, 08:52:22 am
A couple of days ago I moderately enjoyed the taste of liver for the first time ever. It was a pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 16, 2010, 09:24:32 am
A couple of days ago I moderately enjoyed the taste of liver for the first time ever. It was a pleasant surprise.

It took me about 5 months to learn to like raw liver. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on June 17, 2010, 09:36:37 am
I may have mentioned this before, but,  try placing it in a ceramic or glass bowl in the fidge.  Flip it over every two days or so.  After a week or two it will have a slightly tart taste.  It's pretty good that way, also the layer on the outside gets dried out, that too is good.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 17, 2010, 11:14:30 am
Interesting you should say that, Van, because the liver that tasted good to me had been sitting in a glass container for about 4 days, I believe.

I finally got round to doing my strawberry blood glucose experiment and had rather disappointing results.

BG before eating Hudak organic strawberries (juiciest strawberries I ever recall eating; quite tasty) and after eating a little beef, suet, sorrel leaf and water shortly before and coffee about 4+ hours earlier): 101 mg/dl
Ate 2 pints of the strawberries (I didn't expect much of a BG spike, so I ate plenty -- the most I have eaten in the past, and I would normally eat some other food with them to neutralize some of the acidity and sugar). Noticeable results: a surprising amount of mild nausea, malaise, belching and reflux (belched up some acidic-tasting strawberry into my mouth) afterwards.
postprandial BG 1 hour later: 202 mg/dl
postprandial BG 2 hours later: 279 mg/dl  :o

Drat! Not an encouraging result. I was rooting hard for berries. I'm not knowledgeable in this BG stuff and so far no one has helped out with their own BG numbers for comparison  :'(, but this is suggesting possible insulin resistance to me. This could also explain why my fasting BG tends to be so low (low 70s) -- extreme lows (hypoglycemia) are apparently common among people with insulin resistance, IIRC.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 17, 2010, 10:34:51 pm
I think your results are more or less normal.
2 pints of strawberries yield about 34g of sugars.  That's almost 7 tea-spoons full of sugar.
I think it'll take some time to get rid of extra sugar.
Try doing test 3h later or more to see how long it really takes to get rid of that sugar.

I only eat that much sugars if I plan to do heavy activity, exercise, work, etc.
I would not focus on numbers, instead I would focus on how I feel.  If strawberries give me negative feedback I would simply eliminate or limit them and not worry about numbers.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 18, 2010, 11:44:44 am
Update: I developed a sore throat for the first time since I can remember. The only thing I’ve done significantly differently recently is eat a lot more raw berries than usual last night. I did used to be prone in years past to sore throats, nasal congestion, “colds”, “flus” and “allergies” when I ate plentiful grains and other plant carbs.

I think your results are more or less normal.
I hope you’re right, YS, I do like berries. :) 279 does seem high at 2h though, don’t you think, and don't mild nausea, reflux and now sore throat seem like bad signs? Maybe not everyone thrives on raw fruits.

I didn’t get any help on the postprandial numbers, so I did some checking and found this:

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What is a Normal Blood Sugar?
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php

Post-Meal Blood Sugar (Postprandial)

Independent of what they eat, the blood sugar of a truly normal person is:

Under 120 mg/dl (6.6 mmol/L) one or two hours after a meal.

Most normal people are under 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) two hours after eating.

Normal Postprandial Glucose Physiology
http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/491410_2

Postprandial glucose levels are the most important determinant of day-long glycemia.[3] Meal ingestion, regardless of the meal's size, normally results in only transient increases in plasma glucose: concentrations peak at 60 to 90 minutes, rarely exceed 160 mg/dL, and return to preprandial values within 3 hours.[4] Consequently, during a 24-hour period, the average diurnal plasma glucose concentration normally is less than 100 mg/dL.[4] This exquisite regulation is mainly the result of coordinated changes in insulin and glucagon secretion that affect the rates of release of glucose into the circulation and the rates of removal of glucose from the circulation.
Looks like my numbers after raw honeycomb and raw organic strawberries are far from good and my experience reflected the numbers.

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2 pints of strawberries yield about 34g of sugars.  That's almost 7 tea-spoons full of sugar.
I think it'll take some time to get rid of extra sugar.
Try doing test 3h later or more to see how long it really takes to get rid of that sugar.
From what I’ve read, by 3h the blood sugar should normally return to pre-prandial levels (which is why 1 and 2 hours are standard test time frames), so it should indeed be interesting to see if my BG is still elevated at that point.

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….I would not focus on numbers, instead I would focus on how I feel. If strawberries give me negative feedback I would simply eliminate or limit them and not worry about numbers.
Hmm, first you said to add a third hour measurement—now you’re saying not to focus on numbers and instead focus on “how I feel”. Which is it? ??? :) Either way, I have been tracking how I feel, symptoms, etc., in addition to the numbers in my journal and I felt mildly crappy afterward and the next day. My muscles are also more achy after exercise than usual.

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I only eat that much sugars if I plan to do heavy activity, exercise, work, etc.
Sure, but that would have skewed my test at the time. Besides, I don't ordinarily eat that much sugars since I went VLC--it was just a test and I was also planning on testing smaller amounts. I did exercise after the 2 hours and quite a bit today, in part hoping it would help me feel better, but it doesn’t seem to have helped noticeably. I also tried an Epsom salts bath to little avail.

If I could handle strawberries I would like to be able eat about ½ a small container with my meat. Less seems too little to bother with and I would want to limit it to a couple days a week rather than spread it out over many days. When I eat plant carbs for too many days in a row the problems build up. If 2 containers is giving me such huge BG numbers, then it’s not looking good for the lower levels I planned on testing either, but we’ll see. If organic berries end up a total failure, then wild berries probably won’t produce great results either. I’m not fond of some other low-sugar fruits like papaya, cantaloupes and avocado.

This is the first time I’ve managed to give my free BG meter a real workout beyond the occasional measurement since I got it years ago after a cool dude at the Paleofood forum tipped people off to it, and I never measured my own BG before that in my 40+ years, so I wouldn’t worry about my being overly focused on numbers or some such thing. With Lex taking a break from the forum we’re overdue for some BG numbers. :) Maybe I gave the wrong impression with the “shocked” smilie. I was surprised and disappointed sure, but I can live without strawberries, so I’m cool with or without them (I think ;) ). I’m having fun with it actually—I like gadgets (unless they don’t work right) and science. I do like variety in my foods, though, but may have to achieve it with other treats I like, such as Hawaiian yellowfin tuna, duck bacon, mustard greens, etc.

More on why I’m doing this testing to come…

It's looking like Kobe and the Lakers are going to beat my Celtics. It has been a very good NBA Finals and Kobe is quite a player.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: actionhero on June 18, 2010, 07:23:16 pm
and don't mild nausea, reflux and now sore throat seem like bad signs? Maybe not everyone thrives on raw fruits.

Do you get these symptoms from raw honeycomb too? From my own experiments it wasn't the sugar that was causing less than perfect digestion of raw meat/fat, it was the fiber in fruit. I thought I had perfect digestion on fruit and raw meat but it was only after cutting all fruit out that I noticed a much improved digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat. Then I tried raw honeycomb mixed with raw eggs and it did not upset the perfect digestion. So my guess is it must be the fermentation of fiber - or whatever is happening in there as a result of its presence - that is causing some problems. In my case it's just less optimal digestion and absorption of nutrients but with you it may be the same problem but slightly amplified. Maybe you could try the honeycomb+raw eggs drink to see what happens and if you are able to tolerate sugar better this way. That is, of course, if it sounds appealing to you.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 18, 2010, 11:19:55 pm
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Hmm, first you said to add a third hour measurement—now you’re saying not to focus on numbers and instead focus on “how I feel”. Which is it?

Sorry the for the confusion.
What  I meant is if you really interested in obtaining meaningful conclusions based on numbers you need to do more tests to see some repeating patterns.

But if I were in your shoes I would simply search for what works and ignore the science behind it.  But that's just me.

I like berries as well and I never had issues eating them before or now.
Have you ever had difficulties with berries or did it start after going paleo?

Another point I would like to make.  Looking at my personal experience I've had bad times combining meat and fruits/berries.  If I eat fruits/berries separately I do not experience and negative side effects.

I'm trying coconut lately (last 4 weeks), eating/drinking both water and meat.  I still can't tell if coconut is positive or neutral, but it is definitely not negative.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 19, 2010, 07:34:19 am
Sorry the for the confusion.
What  I meant is if you really interested in obtaining meaningful conclusions based on numbers you need to do more tests to see some repeating patterns.
No prob. Like you, I don't have the interest to do lots of tests and I also don't think it's necessary to go much beyond what I'm doing, though I'm open to ideas and appreciate your trying to help. I'm not looking to convince anyone else or prove things to the level Lex has, just get a better sense of what's going on in my body that experience hasn't explained and share my results in case anyone else is interested or also has some data or experiences they can share with me.

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But if I were in your shoes I would simply search for what works and ignore the science behind it.  But that's just me.
The two seem contradictory to me, but maybe that's because I've always enjoyed science and found it to be a very useful tool. For example, it was Dr. Eaton's scientific report in the New England Journal of Medicine that produced the "light bulb" that guided me to Paleo diets and a path of healing. Without science there would be no raw Paleo diet and no one would even know what "Paleo" is. It was scientists who invented the term "Paleo" and it was scientists and science-educated physicians (Eaton, Konner, Cordain, etc.) who kicked off the current Paleo diet movement from which RPD eventually sprang.

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Have you ever had difficulties with berries or did it start after going paleo?
Yes, I had issues before, but I usually didn't eat so many at once and I was eating too many other things to notice as clearly. I also was in some denial about the negative effects that fruits had on me, because I was such an addict of them. I'm still an addict, which probably helps explain why I can't resist trying to find a fruit I can include in my diet. In some ways this forum has been bad for me, because it encourages my raw fruit addiction. If I'm lucky, maybe it's just the strawberries that are an issue among the berries, because I mainly remember issues with them in the past. On the other hand, I do remember some issues with blueberry smoothies too and the reason I didn't react as much to other berries could be because they tend to come in smaller containers and I tended to eat less, so it's probably just wishful thinking on my part. My next planned test is with a small container of raspberries.

The same has been true for me with other foods as it has been with fruits. I never realized how much of an issue I had with wheat, for example, until I cut it out. All sorts of health problems improved that I had for years. Then if I ate wheat again they quickly returned with a vengeance. They didn't return because I had cut out wheat--it was because I had eaten it again. Once I cut out the wheat it also became easier to notice reactions to other foods--probably because my immune system was no longer constantly overwhelmed and much of the "noise" was removed. I've seen countless other people report the same things (here's an example: Dr. Davis' Wheat Aftermath (http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/wheat-aftermath.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/tpzx+(The+Heart+Scan+Blog))). These are phenomena that physicians familiar with gluten intolerance and celiac disease recognize, and even most Paleo dieters recognize this for certain foods like wheat and other grains. I try not to make exceptions and excuses for my favorite foods. I've repeated the following many times and probably sound like a broken record at this point, but I started experiencing improvements right from the start after each food I eliminated--the problems didn't start only after I had been VLC/ZC for a while. I wish the latter were the case, believe me. And I'm not the only one who has experienced this--other LCers have also experienced improvements fairly early on after their change. You get a better sense of this if you read forums that have more LCers in them--such as Dirty Carnivore, Paleofood, ZIOH, etc. Not everyone does well on LC diets, of course, and the Kitavans seem to fare rather well on a high carb diet. I don't claim that everyone benefits from any single approach and I'm not looking for a debate with the defenders of raw carbs--I'm happy for those that do well on them. When I do debate it's more to put my thoughts to the test and learn new things than convince someone else.

The only foods I haven't noticed significant benefits from trial elimination (that I can think of at the moment) have been (raw) meats/organs, animal fats, eggs, fish/seafood, kelp, young greens (but not organic green tea), herbs, ginger, garlic, some spices, radish and cabbage, water, and possibly certain herbal teas (though I don't drink enough of these to get a real good sense yet). No matter how long I cut these out I haven't noticed big improvements and have no problems when re-introducing them--again, no matter how long I've gone without them. On the other hand, I do seem to feel optimal when I avoid plants altogether, but I'm not certain that avoiding them all is necessarily best, I do enjoy variety, and eating some plants makes sociability easier, so I've been experimenting with reintroducing the ones that seem to affect me least. I know Katelyn doesn't like that, and maybe I'll go back to an all-animal food diet, but for now I'm experimenting with plant foods and kelp.

I seem to handle some brassica surprisingly well, even the somewhat dense broccoli heads if they're not boiled into a tough fiber (though the stalks are a bit of an issue and cauliflower, brussels sprouts and turnips don't seem to digest as well and may be too dense and/or too high in brassica lectin). Brassica lectin is supposed to be similar to wheatgerm agglutinin (http://www.springerlink.com/content/12r25g374060405k), which makes it doubly surprising that they don't bother me more, but maybe I just don't eat enough to get a noticeable reaction. I almost always eat meat with my veg these days, which may offset any negative effects from the veg and does seem to improve digestion of the veg.

Here's a question for you--if cutting out fruit for a time is supposed to be the cause of my problems with fruit, why didn't the same occur with the plant foods that I don't have much issue with? I'd rather eat berries than greens and broccoli heads, but I seem to handle the latter much better than fruits even after avoiding veg for months.

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Another point I would like to make.  Looking at my personal experience I've had bad times combining meat and fruits/berries.  If I eat fruits/berries separately I do not experience and negative side effects.
I actually get a worse reaction when I eat fruits/berries alone, as my recent strawberry experiment brought home for me once again :( . I've tried eating fat with them too, which was another suggestion, but it didn't help much. Meat and fish seem to help most when I eat berries. I was expecting fat would help more, but it didn't help as much for whatever reason. I think it may be because I still don't digest fat optimally. Meat and fish protein seem to digest best for me, but being VLC means I must eat a lot of animal/fish fat, which I do digest better than fruit & veg. One reason I've been trying to find plant foods I digest reasonably well is that my fat digestion is still not optimized and it's hard to keep the fat intake high.

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I'm trying coconut lately (last 4 weeks), eating/drinking both water and meat.  I still can't tell if coconut is positive or neutral, but it is definitely not negative.
I enjoy coconut but coconut oil makes me nauseas even in fairly small quantities and I find eating whole coconut to be too much bother, though I got one several weeks ago. I haven't noticed nausea from whole coconut meat, though I  don't eat it often and have gotten nausea from drinking too much green coconut water at once. I'm hoping that apparent digestive issues like these will improve further with time, but I won't cry if it doesn't happen. ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 19, 2010, 07:50:14 am
Do you get these symptoms from raw honeycomb too?
I do, though not as bad. You can read my reports about it in this journal. I don't get the stomach effects from honey that I do from the acids in many fruits. I do love raw honey, so once in a while I eat small amounts of it as a treat, despite the mild negative effects even small amounts produce. I try to minimize the damage by eating lots of meat and fat with it, though it doesn't offset it completely. Raw honey and raw fruit are the most addictive of the RPD foods for me. So far I've managed to strictly limit them, but if the addiction gets out of hand again I'll drop them completely again. All this talk of honey and fruit is bringing back my cravings. LOL Must ... maintain ... control. :)

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From my own experiments it wasn't the sugar that was causing less than perfect digestion of raw meat/fat, it was the fiber in fruit.
Fiber could be a factor for me too (some forms of fiber have been linked to mineral depletion, for example), but raw honeycomb, pulpless fruit juice, and all plant carbs also affect me negatively, so sugars appear to be more of a factor for me, and also acids.

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I thought I had perfect digestion on fruit and raw meat but it was only after cutting all fruit out that I noticed a much improved digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat. Then I tried raw honeycomb mixed with raw eggs and it did not upset the perfect digestion. So my guess is it must be the fermentation of fiber - or whatever is happening in there as a result of its presence - that is causing some problems. In my case it's just less optimal digestion and absorption of nutrients but with you it may be the same problem but slightly amplified.
Glad to hear of your success.

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Maybe you could try the honeycomb+raw eggs drink to see what happens and if you are able to tolerate sugar better this way. That is, of course, if it sounds appealing to you.
I did come up with that drink independently. It made for a quick calorie boost when I didn't have time to eat meat and I do enjoy it. The eggs don't completely offset the negative effects of the honey for me, unfortunately--at least not yet.

It is interesting that raw honey causes me a bit less problems than heated honey. Years ago I don't think I would have guessed that.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 19, 2010, 09:17:02 am
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Here's a question for you--if cutting out fruit for a time is supposed to be the cause of my problems with fruit, why didn't the same occur with the plant foods that I don't have much issue with?

you are funny, i am as clueless as you are and everyone else in here.

unlike many many reports of sudden progress and then falling behind, i see very very slow but steady progress.  why is it different from others - who knows?

when i started Weston Price I was producing goat-like poop, very small and very hard. since transitioning to raw meat, my stool has normalized.  i'm doing very basic things, more diverse than Lex, but not that much.  i do not seek nor i believe in some kind of magic beetle juice or any killer food combinations.  like you i was reading a lot of science papers but came to conclusion that most are either inconclusive or just theories.  so i tossed the whole science away for now.  if i run into interesting science paper i would read it but would not pay much attention to it.

i have gained around 7lb so far, i hope to increase it to 10 and then i'll post detailed report along with before and after pictures and maybe a workout video.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: actionhero on June 19, 2010, 08:59:37 pm
Raw honey and raw fruit are the most addictive of the RPD foods for me.

From a perspective of increasing your health, energy and vitality are you getting anything out of fruit? Or do you want to be able to eat them because you enjoy doing so even though they might not improve any of the above?

Something I just realized recently is that the less stimulation we have the more our health seems to grow.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 20, 2010, 09:30:02 am
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Here's a question for you--if cutting out fruit for a time is supposed to be the cause of my problems with fruit, why didn't the same occur with the plant foods that I don't have much issue with?

you are funny, i am as clueless as you are and everyone else in here.
Well, I'm glad you found humor in it, but I wasn't really trying to be funny. Didn't you expect questions would be generated by your apparent suggestion that my 279 mg/dl postprandial BG 2 hours after eating a lot of strawberries is more or less normal? I haven't seen many claims like yours before (on the contrary, I've even seen some fruitarians claim that loads of fruit doesn't spike their blood sugar or cause any of the symptoms I experience, or that such symptoms are just "detox"), so it seems to invite questions. Perhaps you're right about it, but I had little way to judge your claim, so I inquired. I also did some further searching of my own and found several sources that suggest that my numbers were not "normal" or healthy, though those sources unfortunately didn't provide quantities of food or sugars to compare to. I like to ask lots of questions. and maintain an attitude of basically questioning everything, because it's one of the ways I've learned a lot, though not everyone likes answering a lot of questions, of course, so I hope you don't mind mine.

My guess is that fruits affect me somewhat more negatively than greens and some other veggies I've listed and that fruits affect me more negatively than they do most other people (with some thriving on them, as Tyler likes to point out), but they're only guesses based largely on my experience and the reports others have made of their experiences. My problems with fruit don't appear to have started only after I cut them out. Apparently that has been the case for other people, but not for me.

I enjoy fruits quite a bit, but can live without them if need be (at least I managed to for some months and hope I would be able to manage it longer if necessary). I've been fascinated, from the standpoint of curious observer, by the amount of emotion that discussions of fruit seem to generate--along with dairy and fatty meats like pemmican (as Tyler has pointed out). Veggies that are low in starch and lean meats don't seem to generate as much emotion in discussions. Is it just coincidence that fruits, dairy and fatty meats also tend to be more tasty foods than veg and lean meats? In the cases where I've seen people say "I refuse to give up _____," I can't think of a single example where the food wasn't high in either carbs or fat. Fiber and protein don't seem to do it for people the way that carbs and fats do.
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unlike many many reports of sudden progress and then falling behind, i see very very slow but steady progress.  why is it different from others - who knows?
Right, and that's one of the basic things I'm trying to figure out--why some things don't work for me that do for others, why others work for me that don't for others, what might help me get beyond stubborn plateaus with certain health issues I still have, etc. I find that asking questions, exploring and experimenting helps me work out what really does work best for me. In this way I've managed to work out decent answers to some puzzles that seemed insolvable at first blush.

For example, I used to think that I didn't need to cut back on fruits or nuts or eat mostly raw, but I asked questions, did some searching, experimented and found I did indeed do better when I made these further changes. The vast majority of Paleo dieters outside this forum seem to think like I used to think--that they wouldn't benefit greatly from further changes like going mostly- or all- raw. Some even go so far as to ridicule what we do. But my guess is that most of them haven't actually tried it, and until they do, it seems to me that they can't know for sure (which is one reason I tried it). Maybe their assumptions are right, maybe not. As you say, who knows? And as my mother used to say, "Don't knock it till you've tried it."

I see asking questions, experimenting and observing as being part of the scientific mindset ... and the hunter-gatherer mindset, for that matter (though there are of course also differences between modern science and HG culture and wisdom). Even if my health were fully optimized I would probably still be somewhat curious about these sorts of matters, because I've always been curious and enjoyed learning (perhaps because both my parents were educators for most of their careers). I hope I don't wear out people's patience with my questions--they aren't meant to do that. For me, questions and discussions of scientific matters are generally energy-boosters rather than depleters and I enjoy it the way Lex enjoys repairing clocks.

Quote
when i started Weston Price I was producing goat-like poop, very small and very hard. since transitioning to raw meat, my stool has normalized.  i'm doing very basic things, more diverse than Lex, but not that much.  i do not seek nor i believe in some kind of magic beetle juice or any killer food combinations.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with you about not seeking any kind of magic, nor do I seek final answers from science papaers. I don't believe in magical cure-alls and try to apply skeptical questioning to extraordinary claims while still also keeping a generally open mind. To me science is not about answers and absolutism. It's about questions. The questions are the thing. It's the path that's important, more than the final destination. To me even religion, spirituality and philosophy seem at their healthiest when they are more about questions and the path (ex: Taoism, shamanism, animism, Eckhart Tolle, Socrates, ...) than answers and the destination (ex: Wahhabism, Osama bin Laden, the Jim Jones cult, the Heaven's Gate cult, ...).

As Daniel Quinn says, "there is no one right way to live" and to that I would add the corollary, "there is no one right way to find out how you should live." Your taking a break from science papers would probably be lauded by Tolle--he says that the spaces between words are important too, not just the words, and we could say that the spaces between the papers are also important (and there is certainly no necessity for scientific papers or even paper itself, for it is an invention that humans got along without for millions of years--thinking in terms of thousands or millions of years helps to put things in perspective). Even I need a break from science and learning at times and enjoy jaunts through the woods by my new home, which remind me of my childhood enjoyment of playing in the woods with friends and siblings.

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 like you i was reading a lot of science papers but came to conclusion that most are either inconclusive or just theories.  so i tossed the whole science away for now.  if i run into interesting science paper i would read it but would not pay much attention to it.
That's fine, I don't expect others to do what I do, and it would probably actually frighten me if a lot of people did. It doesn't bother me that scientific inquiries have been inconclusive or "just theories." Which should be unsurprising to anyone who knows my perspective. Plus, I utilize not just scientific papers, but also my experience, the reports of others of their experiences, the study of nature, experimentation and observation. I guess you could call it a sort of Jeet-Kune-Do approach to finding what works for me re: health and lifestyle. Human beings are fallible creatures incapable of perfection, so anything we produce, whether it be science or what have you, will be imperfect.

John Ioannidis revealed that many studies are bogus and influenced by money from interests like drug companies in  "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False." Yet, ironically, it was in a scientific research paper that he revealed this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182327/). So there's a quandary for you--scientific research is quite screwed up, but we don't have much else in the way of tools for testing claims in a way that satisfies multiple parties. I have my personal experience, but it may not do you a lot of good, so scientists attempt to put larger numbers of experiences together in studies to provide results that might be more relevant to more people, but unfortunately they need money to do it and those with the money don't tend to want to pay for things that produce results they don't like. It seems somewhat of a catch 22, but the Internet does seem to be helping people like you and me get around such problems by sharing our experiences and thoughts directly with each other in larger numbers than we could before its advent.

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i have gained around 7lb so far, i hope to increase it to 10 and then i'll post detailed report along with before and after pictures and maybe a workout video.
Cool, thanks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 20, 2010, 09:41:26 am
From a perspective of increasing your health, energy and vitality are you getting anything out of fruit? Or do you want to be able to eat them because you enjoy doing so even though they might not improve any of the above?
There are multiple reasons I've listed in the past. Some claim that fruits are crucial for health, so I'm putting those claims to the test, even some big advocates of meats/fish/animal fats say they eat 5% or so carbs, so I'm seeing if I do any better with a small amount of carbs and what the maximum I can handle is before symptoms kick in, I do enjoy the taste of fruits, so I'm seeing if I can manage to have a little fruit treat now and then without harm, I'm just plain curious, some grateful people are urging me to write a book and help others, so I'm trying to get both depth and breadth of knowledge of the subject in case I ever do, etc., etc. It's not just any one thing. I don't tend to think in terms of single answers and single inspirations. Nature seems to be a highly complex web of fractal components. We will never understand it completely or have all the answers, but that's part of what makes nature interesting and we shouldn't give up asking questions because of it.

Quote
Something I just realized recently is that the less stimulation we have the more our health seems to grow.

I think I know what you mean. I saw a documentary where there was a desert plant that manages to survive on occasional mists of moisture that ocean storms blow into the desert--despite years of no rainstorms. That plant can live to be over a thousand years old.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on June 20, 2010, 06:48:21 pm

I think I know what you mean. I saw a documentary where there was a desert plant that manages to survive on occasional mists of moisture that ocean storms blow into the desert--despite years of no rainstorms. That plant can live to be over a thousand years old.
Would that be the Rose of Jericho plant?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 20, 2010, 11:20:48 pm
It's the Welwitschia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welwitschia, which actually apparently gets most of its water from dew--I may have misheard the audio of the documentary. At any rate, it gets by on very little water and grows very slowly and I think this helps account for its reportedly living in some cases more than 2 thousand years.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 21, 2010, 12:02:56 am
I'm trying not to sidetrack other people's journals, so I'll respond to the following posts here:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36960/#msg36960
When I was on RZC, my stools were extremely infrequent and very small. I didn't view it as constipation, though, just a sign of nearly complete digestion. I'm just thinking that you might have misinterpreted your results.

You raised this question before here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/paleophil%27s-journal/msg31038/#msg31038. As I said before, what I'm talking about is #1-3 on the Bristol scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale that tend to be hard, difficult to move, dry and occasionally have some mucus (though much less of the latter than in times past). I wasn't judging it merely on frequency or smallness. My constipation was diagnosed early in life before I even understood what the word meant--probably before I could even speak, because I think my mother spoke of it occurring at times in my infancy. 2 of my 3 siblings had it at times as well. Our first physician prescribed an ineffective laxative. I didn't mind much that it didn't work because it had a nice chocolate flavor.

The Bristol scale is generally regarded as a better measure of constipation than frequency or size alone, since frequency and size can vary between individuals and says little about the overall nature of the stools. As my symptoms worsened over the years, my clinical diagnosis was eventually upgraded to IBS and I developed other negative effects of constipation as well that I'll spare people from having to read.

Senna is providing less and less benefit over time, as I expected might happen. This seems to be the case with any treatment I've tried, so I try not to use any one treatment too often, to avoid losing what little benefit it might offer. I try to do plenty of exercise, including morning exercise, and drink plenty of water. On the bright side, my inguinal partial hernia (the smooth muscle tissue was not torn, but it was extremely weak and would poke out and become quite painful and I would have to poke it back in, but it would pop out again) is greatly improved over what it had been and there is even some muscle tone there now, where before there was just a bulge sticking out.

Sidenote re: exercise: I seem to be in better shape now, as far as walking and climbing, than I was ten or twenty years ago and tend to leave others in the dust when walking/climbing. My balance is the best it's ever been. I can balance better on fallen trees in the woods now than I could as a youth.

I don't like the fact that senna is a legume whose anthraquinone derivatives and their glucosides, like all medicines, are mildly toxic. In addition to producing beneficial bowel effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senna_%28genus%29#In_medicine), they can have side effects when used long term (such as potential exacerbation of my not yet resolved mild potassium deficiency; see also http://www.drugs.com/ppa/senna.html,
http://www.mdidea.com/products/new/new040research.html for more on side effects and toxicity).

Coincidentally, ActionHero also expressed doubt re: my constipation:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36931/#msg36931
...I don't know how salty blood really is. I remember tasting my own blood sometimes after a cut and it tasted metallic like, never salty. There may be some blood in the ground beef I am buying but not very much. The little salt that was on the meat my mom prepared did cause the surface of my tongue to feel a bit sore so I'm not sure how much we really need. I can't imagine constipation on raw ZC, maybe it happens only on cooked ZC.
I don't know how much is in it either, but blood does at times taste salty to me and other people have reported that it contains it. I did have chronic constipation (based on the Bristol scale) on raw ZC and still have it on raw VLC (and adding some plant foods didn't help noticeably at all). For 2 or 3 weeks I did experience near remission of the problem on raw ZC, so that was the best diet yet for it for me, but the constipation worsened again while still on raw ZC and didn't resolve completely. I was hoping that I just had to get used to the reduced fecal volume, but based on Lex's experience I think I should have had some improvement again by now, so it seems to be more of an issue than just needing to adapt to reduced fecal volume. It was worse on past SAD, vegetarian and near-vegetarian diets, when it was a more severe problem of IBS-C with D.

Miles seemed to question the frequently reported phenomenon of greatly reduced hunger signals on raw ZC. Hunger is indeed a valuable survival signal, so it doesn't disappear completely, but my "hunger feelings" or whatever you want to call them are also less on ZC/VLC as compared to SAD. I do forget to eat at times and can lose too much weight from my already bony frame (I have visible rib, wrist and patella bones, for example) if I don't remember to eat and if I don't force myself to eat more than I would if had my druthers. I think it's probably partly due to something defective in my system, but partly also because LC/ZC and raw foods do produce less hunger pangs than SAD or even Paleo omnivore, as others report. In the past I found I could easily put on weight if I ate plenty of carbs, but it was nearly all body fat rather than muscle and it came with many other negatives like dry, flaky skin and scalp, painful cystic acne, poor sleep with nightmares, IBS C with D and numerous other symptoms I have detailed in the past. Over time, the carbs seemed so damaging to my gut that I appeared to be losing weight from them rather than gaining it. So overall I see the reduced hunger feelings as a natural, positive aspect of raw and ZC--especially for those who are overweight--rather than a negative. It just so happens that I came from a starting point of needing to gain weight rather than lose it. I have put on some more weight on raw VLC than I managed to on cooked Paleo omnivore, perhaps due to some healing of my gut, calming of the immune system and eating foods that are easier to digest.

As others have mentioned, raw ZC hunger is different than cooked carb hunger. Have you ever heard of the old saying of feeling hungry again an hour after eating Chinese takeout/restaurant food (which tends to include lots of rice)? That never happens to me while I'm eating raw ZC/VLC and the feeling I get when hungry ZCing is much different and less unpleasant than what I used to get when eating significant carbs. It's hard to explain. One thing I notice is that there is less grumbling and stomach pains--basically none that I've noticed if I don't stray at all from raw ZC and avoid even coffee.

Based on my experience, I think what KD probably meant when he discussed how some ZCers say they don't get hungry, is that in the course of their normal lives they don't get the hunger pangs they used to on their previous WOE. However, I don't speak for anyone else, so each person would have to be questioned to know for sure.


http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36960/#msg36960
Start eating more fruit and I guarantee you your constipation will vanish.

Mango, oranges and pineapple are specially good. Apples, bananas (starchy fruit) not so great for constipation
Thanks for trying to help, ForTheHunt, but in the days when I was eating a lot of fruit I had a more severe case of IBS-C with D, felt like crap, was badly emaciated and seemed to be withering away and becoming increasingly ill to the point where some were concerned I would die (I looked like those emaciated male fruitarians you can see images of at fruitarian forums). Granted, I was eating some nightshades and squashes too, but as I increased fruit intake my problems worsened and as I reduced it they lessened (please no one ask me to list all my negative symptoms from fruit again--please refer to my journal if you're interested, thanks), so fruit also seemed to be a factor. Plus, eating fruit didn't noticeably help the constipation aspect of my IBS. So I hope you'll understand if I'm not thrilled by the prospect of heavy fruit intake, even though I love fruit and would gladly include a hell of a lot more of it in my diet if it didn't have such negative effects on me.

I do eat some raw fruit and on days I do I still notice no improvement in constipation, so I unfortunately can't say that my experience backs up your guarantee at this point. I was hoping that including some fruit and veg back in my diet might help but have not seen any positive results from it yet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 21, 2010, 01:37:04 am
I’ll try to explain what I’m doing with these BG tests besides having fun. Dr. Kurt Harris and Tyler have suggested that the reason that people like Lex and me do better on no plant carbs or near-zero rather than 5-25% is because we are probably insulin resistant. Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis to me and one I’ve considered myself in the past (it wouldn’t be surprising, as my mother and uncle were both diagnosed with insulin resistance). Dr. Harris even called fruits “tree candy”. On the other hand, I’ve seen fruitarians claim that they can eat tons of fruit (like 30 bananas) all day without spiking their BG, and make claims about the healthy fiber in fruits offsetting any problems with sugars, or that fruit sugars are somehow perfectly benign for everyone, etc., and Actionhero even recently said right here in this forum that he eats raw honeycomb to get the “pure sugar” into his system and that he was able to “have 15 bananas for breakfast alone and NOT experience a crash afterwards” and FortheHunt said “I can eat massive amounts of fruit with out any problems what so ever” (lucky them :) ). Anyone who has read this forum for more than a brief stretch of time has seen other language singing the praises of raw fruits and raw honeycomb. While some people report thriving on them, others--even quite a few fruitarians I’ve seen as well as myself--don’t seem to thrive on them as much as we’d like. I started by testing raw honeycomb and now I’m testing berries. I seem to have more problems with them than most, though apparently not a lot of people here have actually tested their postprandial BG or gone off plant carbs entirely for long that I could compare numbers and experiences with, so it’s a little difficult to get a solid feel for the extent of the differences, but those that have done the latter and reported their experiences give me the impression that I handle raw fruits worse than avg--at least as compared with other RPDers.

These extremely different experiences and conflicting hypotheses have made me curious, so I’m putting them to the test to see how I compare and to see what proves true for me rather than just accept one or the other opinion. My guess is that there’s a good chance that I am insulin resistant, given BOTH my experience and my numbers. Heck, why should I be afraid of the numbers anyway? How is doing some BG testing going to hurt me? I think postprandial BG numbers are a useful addition to my experience and the fasting BG numbers my physicians have done and Dr. William Davis concurs:
Quote
“In the ongoing debate over what constitutes a healthy or unhealthy diet, the entire issue of postprandial patterns has been ignored. Yet much of heart disease develops IN THE POSTPRANDIAL PERIOD.” HTTP://HEARTSCANBLOG.BLOGSPOT.COM/2010/01/GRETCHENS-POSTPRANDIAL-DIET-EXPERIMENT.HTML?SHOWCOMMENT=1262559338074#C2684603478768420817
“High postprandial glucose values are a coronary risk factor. While conventional guidelines say that a postprandial glucose (i.e., during OGTT) of 140 mg/dl or greater is a concern, coronary risk starts well below this. Risk is increased approximately 50% at 126 mg/dl. Risk may begin with postprandial glucoses as low as 100 mg/dl.

For this reason, postprandial (not OGTT) glucose checks are becoming an integral part of the Track Your Plaque program. We encourage postprandial blood glucose checks, followed by efforts to reduce postprandial glucose if they are high.” http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/blood-sugar-fasting-vs-postprandial.html

Besides, like always I’m also monitoring my experience, not just the BG numbers. The extent of the nausea and reflux after eating the strawberries was also somewhat of a surprise to me, but given that my BG rose to 279, it’s now more understandable. Strawberries apparently have enough sugar and acid in them to give me some issues if I eat too much of them—more so than I expected. I was planning on testing them at lower amounts too and liked the idea of a 3hour test as well that YS suggested. Love the enthusiasm for science YS showed for a bit there. :)

I found that just going solely by how I feel or just by the fasting BG numbers the docs and nurses took has been misleading at times in the past, whereas adding postprandial BG and urinary specific gravity tests has given me a fuller picture of what’s going on. I’ve seen many fruitarians claim they thrive on fruits, only to discover years later (after many “healthful detoxes”) that blood tests reveal them to be dangerously deficient in certain nutrients and to have other indicators of severe health problems. Check out Paul Nisson on this as just one example of a former extreme fruitarian who discovered this. It may be dangerous to rely only on one’s own perceptions—just as it may also be dangerous to ignore one’s own experiences and instincts. I take advantage of all the important info—useful tests, my own experience and the experiences of others, and my instincts, and I try to inform it all with science to the best of my limited understanding.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/paleophil%27s-journal/msg36417/#msg36417
Isn't it normal for BG to spike every time you eat anything loaded with sucrose/glucose?
Sure, but apparently not as much as mine did, if the other data I found online is any indicator, and I was testing the claim of AV and others that raw honey doesn't spike BG at all because of unnamed enzymes it contains. Even though it was comb-honey made right in the container by the bees, which is even less processed than AV's hand-packed honey, it not only spiked my BG, it sent it into a range that's considered excessive even for diabetics. That can't be good for anyone, can it? If so, how and why?

I would love it as much as anyone if by some miracle AV had turned out to be right in my case. Who wouldn't want to be able to eat raw honey without any negative effects? I think my results reveal the danger of accepting claims and advising other people to eat things like raw honey without first testing the claims. Imagine what it could do to a diabetic. Too often I've seen people point to some guru’s claims as if his opinion alone was strong supporting evidence or even proof. This is something that Tyler has tried to discourage. I hope I can also contribute a healthy dose of skepticism.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 21, 2010, 03:40:21 am
A recent comment about the power of positive thinking on IBS in one individual who claimed a cure from it reminded me of some very positive people who were not cured by positive thinking, through no fault of their own. This isn't directly related to the original post, so I don't intend it to be a direct reply to that. It just got me thinking about the subject and brought back memories and thus I'm posting it here instead. Positive thinking, meditation and other forms of mind-body medicine can certainly help, but we should be careful not to blame people if it doesn’t work for them and wouldn’t shouldn’t let it stop us from also eating well, exercising, getting sunlight, etc. We should also be careful to try to get our diet right for our individual needs, because what the “experts” have told us about diet (such as “eat lots of healthy whole grains”, “avoid artery-clogging saturated fat”, etc.) may not be right for all of us. A friend of mine who was one of the most positive people I've ever met had a very remarkable recovery from cancer after undergoing a fairly novel surgery. She had many positive mantras. She included many of them in her book that she had me review pre-publication for her. Some of them were:

Quote
I will make it through.
Repeat that you will do your best and leave the rest to God
I am whole, healthy and healed.
I embrace the mystery of each new dawn.
My immune system is getting stronger every day. My immune system is powerful and can fight off colds, flu, and diseases. I love my immune system.
I surrender to the flow of life.
I will live a long and healthy life.
Learn to deflect the stress rather than absorb it.

She was a big advocate of "veggie overdosing" and thought that veggies plus positivity and other factors might have cured her cancer and spread the word about her experience through her book and speeches. Unfortunately, her cancer returned and she died at a young age while she still had so much she wanted to do to help the world.

She had also taught her tips to my good friend and roommate of the time when he got leukemia. I noticed that he became more peaceful and accepting from her teachings. Like her, he had some short-term improvements but also died. However, their brief improvements using natural approaches and their examples helped motivate me further to get to the bottom of my own health issues and possibly help others as they had tried to.

I tried the approaches of my friends but didn’t get any noticeable health benefits from them, but their inspiration to search did lead me to find Eaton and Cordain’s writings on the Paleo diet, and then further on to raw Paleo, which did more to heal my acne, dry skin, anxiety, pre-hernia, nightmares, IBS C with D, periodontal disease, etc., than anything else I had tried.

So the lesson seems to be that positive thinking and mind-body medicine can help—at least in making life more enjoyable, and probably other ways (besides, chronic worry and stress only make matters worse, as I learned from my father and Dale Carnegie)—but we shouldn’t rely on it alone, nor on standard USDA or vegetarian dogmas regarding diet and lifestyle. A multifaceted holistic approach that also includes nutrition informed by evolutionary biology and other aspects of ancestral lifestyle has worked better for me and my friends and relatives and appears to be more promising overall.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on June 21, 2010, 07:52:56 am
I will always support you, my friend. But I continue to be baffled by your justifications for wanting to eat fruit. For social reasons? Don't you think a 29 year old woman of my looks and intelligence (vain, I know) would have more a "necessary" social reason to eat off plan? Yet I never do. I also don't believe fruits have any magical properties. They are mostly sugar with vitamin C and potassium attached. I think Dr. Harris is right when he says organs are vital, fruits and vegetables are not.

If you WANT to eat fruits just because you want to, go ahead. But trying to justify a "need" to eat them seems a stretch, particularly when ZC is such a fantastic WOE. No constant hunger, all foods have maximum nutrition, the slimming benefits, the taste of delicious fatty meat, etc. There is variety as one wishes or doesn't wish, and nutrition abundance.

As for not wanting to lose weight, I do not understand why you just don't force yourself to eat more, especially raw fat. You know how active I am. I did a fasted 2.5 hour hike today and have not yet eaten. You know I do lots of free weights and cables and bodyweight exercises. I make myself eat once a day, and I set the calories myself in my tracker and eat what I plan, hungry or not (often not much). Yes, I have forced myself to eat before to get in the calories? My reward? Muscle building and lowered body fat. My weight remains stable and my lifts are going up and my endurance for hiking is improving. All while eating raw meats, some cooked eggs and seared organs. No fruit, no vegetables, and I feel and look healthy.

You know I hope this does not come out rude. You know how I feel about ZC. I was a very unhappy vegetarian. I have no desire to ever eat vegetables or fruit again, let alone grains. I am getting everything I need.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on June 21, 2010, 07:55:21 am
I do feel badly about your chronic constipation, but that may be something that diet cannot fix. Adding fruit for fiber seems to be just adding more negatives than positives, in my opinion (the sugar, the fibers taking nutrients from the body, etc.).  I wish I knew how to help you. But whatever you decide to do I stand by you, but I wish you would not struggle internally with raw ZC/VLC. If this is the best WOE you have experienced, as you say, why make these other changes? Why not provide the world some examples of raw ZC/VLCers who thrive on this WOE and make it work for them, instead of bowing to social pressures and doubts?

 :P
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 21, 2010, 09:37:42 am
I will always support you, my friend. But I continue to be baffled by your justifications for wanting to eat fruit. For social reasons?
Yes, I know Katelyn. Thanks again for your concern. Social reasons are just one of many reasons, as I mentioned.

Quote
I think Dr. Harris is right when he says organs are vital, fruits and vegetables are not.
He could be. He even calls fruit "tree candy." I've been putting that hypothesis to the test and so far my experience appears to match his claim pretty well, though my experience doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else.

[quote[If you WANT to eat fruits just because you want to, go ahead.[/quote]Yes, that's another of the reasons.
Quote
But trying to justify a "need" to eat them seems a stretch
I don't feel a "need" to justify eating fruits--just trying to be polite in responding to the questions of why do it and simple curiosity is driving my experiment more than needs. It does make life easier to expand the diet a little, but, as I've said before, if it appears to threaten my health then I won't continue the experiment. The need seems to be more with other people's need to know why I'm doing it, which I'm fascinated by. It's interesting how much ruckus doing a fruit experiment or saying anything too positive or too negative about fruits stirs up. Fruits seem to inspire rather strong feelings and debates.

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As for not wanting to lose weight, I do not understand why you just don't force yourself to eat more, especially raw fat.
Yes, I'm doing that too. Maybe you're not familiar with Lex's period he hit where he got bored of his ZC mix and apparently lost quite a bit of weight?

[quoteAll while eating raw meats, some cooked eggs and seared organs. No fruit, no vegetables, and I feel and look healthy.[/quote]Glad to hear of your success, Katelyn.

Quote
You know I hope this does not come out rude. You know how I feel about ZC. I was a very unhappy vegetarian. ....
Yeah, I have no desire to try vegetarianism again. I quickly found out that I did very poorly on that WOE, though it didn't occur to me to try carnivory until years later. You and the proponents of omnivory are like the angel and devil on my shoulders. Of course, both sides see themselves as the angel who is right. I'm testing the claims of both sides. Your side does seem to be winning, though there are still questions and apparent exceptions. I seem to be able to handle kelp and young greens OK, for example. I don't care for eating them alone, but I do like them in my mouth when eating bloody raw or fat-dripping cooked meats, for some reason. With the kelp I think it's in part because I have a little bit of taste for salt again, so it's like spicing the meat, and it adds a little texture variety. Coincidentally, chimps put greens in their mouths when eating meats too. I may also have acquired this preference from eating burgers with lettuce leaves instead of buns. This experiment has actually served your case pretty well, because I'm finding out that my BG appears to react more strongly to fruits and honey comb than I expected. Still, the other side could argue that if I again cut out carbs completely that more of my carb-eating flora will die off and I will become even more sensitive to carbs.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 21, 2010, 11:45:34 am
Quote
I like to ask lots of questions. and maintain an attitude of basically questioning everything, because it's one of the ways I've learned a lot, though not everyone likes answering a lot of questions, of course, so I hope you don't mind mine.

not at all, in fact I like your persistence digging through it.  i'm sure if you had enough money and time you would do your own research with your own hired test subjects and have definite unbiased numbers in everything you can think of like BG, poop, other blood tests, etc.

unfortunately, we live in reality.  in my quest of gaining weight Lex's story impressed me with its simplicity and because it works. 

another unfortunate thing is there are only handful of us hard gainers here, and going further you are probably the only one with your set of conditions.  because of that i tend to ignore what others are claiming simply because it does not apply to me.  their conditions and bodies are very different from mine and yours.  there are too few of our kind here and that makes it difficult to share experience.

another thing i like what you are doing is you don't seem to take dubious answers like the one that was given numerous times here.  when asked about some negative side effects i've seen others reply that it is simply "detox".  to me this is pretty worthless claim, but it is very convenient to claim.  first, it gives somewhat logical explanation (baseless but there is some logic to it). second, it conforms to ones way of eating so there is no digression here.  i see some are really buying it.
 
and another unfortunate thing, most of the knowledge here revolves around "i heard this, i heard that, AV said this, curezone said that, i did this and it worked for me so it must work for you", all with no substance to back it up.  this forum needs more numbers, more success stories in pictures and videos.  i feel like i'm drowning in this sea of claims and speculations and it takes effort for my mind to filter out lots of garbage.

back to gaining weight. in my very personal opinion i think loading inefficient digestive system with more food is counter productive.  i found out that less is indeed more.  it took long time (9 months) but i believe my digestion has recovered somewhat.  if i skip a meal because i did not feel like eating i do not loose weight as before.

and speaking of power of positive thinking, i believe it is the real thing.  it is called placebo effect.  it is called effect because it works.  the same goes for all negative thinking. it makes it worse.  classic example is stress.  everyone knows how stress negatively affects our health, and stress is nothing more than a product of our mind. can't sleep at night? i guess it is not because life is beautiful, it is because we are thinking about stupid things that we think are more important than our health.  sounds simple but it is not.  it takes lots practice not to think about all that garbage.  and i believe it works.



Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on June 21, 2010, 05:47:42 pm
The large number of vague reports re RVAF diets has been very useful for most here. After all, people only take them seriously once the reports are very frequent(such as claims that raw dairy is harmful etc.)

As for photos and videos, they can be a bit deceptive at times. I remember some of my old photos, pre-RPD diet making me seem quite healthy whereas I was actually in great pain.

Re detox:- There is some evidence re detox existing. Naturally, some might mistakenly cite "detox" as a cause when something else is at fault, but that['s just standard human error.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 21, 2010, 09:35:20 pm
Quote
There is some evidence re detox existing

yes, i agree that there is some kind of evidence.  but the same thing is said about existence of aliens.  that does not prove nor disprove anything.  with such little information it goes into "belief" category.  you either believe in it or you don't.  for someone like PaleoPhil who is looking for hard evidence, this kind of answer is not enough.  that was the point i tried to make.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 21, 2010, 09:44:09 pm
Quote
As for photos and videos, they can be a bit deceptive at times. I remember some of my old photos, pre-RPD diet making me seem quite healthy whereas I was actually in great pain.

that's your opinion based on your personal experience.  and that's ok.
it's just in my opinion healthy body should either look better than average and/or can perform better than average.

and just one picture (or video) speaks louder than 100 claims.  again, this is my personal opinion.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on June 21, 2010, 10:18:43 pm
Well, there is a useful definition of a genuine detox, that is that a genuine detox is one which affects one to a minor or moderate extent and lasts only a short time with one feeling slightly better afterwards than before. More to the point, there is hard scientific evidence that the less toxin-rich foods one ingests the better one is able to get rid of one's toxin-load(I'm thinking of those studies which showed that not eating AGE-rich foods(high in heat-created toxins) helped to lower the resulting amounts of AGEs within the body. So, clearly the body does have some sort of detox mechanism(if it didn't, we'd all die just from mild poisons).

As for photos, too many people pose artificially for them, showing their best side or covering their worst parts with clothes or whatever, and that's not counting issues such as lighting etc.. So, they are a very poor indication of real health.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 21, 2010, 10:48:05 pm
Quote
that is that a genuine detox is one which affects one to a minor or moderate extent and lasts only a short time with one feeling slightly better afterwards than before

i would not know it since i never experienced it, hence my questioning. i live in industrial environment so i would think i would be loaded with toxins.
let's leave detox subject alone for now.  if PaleoPhil wants to take on it that's fine.  it's his journal after all.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 22, 2010, 07:09:26 am
Thanks, YS. Like you I prefer hard data, though not quite to the extent that you implied--perhaps you were exaggerating for humorous effect? :)

I'm also a fan of Lex's journal--it's what brought me here originally--and I also eat much like him, with some more variety. Maybe we agree more than you thought?

Katelyn, thanks again for your concern and I understand where you're coming from, but I'll be fine and won't risk major health damage while I figure out what works for me. It's useful to have strong advocates here of both ZC like you and omnivore like Tyler. I get to see both perspectives this way.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on June 22, 2010, 09:46:22 am

Katelyn, thanks again for your concern and I understand where you're coming from, but I'll be fine and won't risk major health damage while I figure out what works for me. It's useful to have strong advocates here of both ZC like you and omnivore like Tyler. I get to see both perspectives this way.

Hey, you know I'm here for you!  :-* You are one of the smartest, kindest and well-reasoned individuals I know. I love reading your journey.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 22, 2010, 11:04:25 am
Thanks Katelyn! Cool runnings!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 29, 2010, 08:40:31 am
Looks like I missed replying to this earlier post at http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully/msg37600/#msg37600

For sure, we are all different and we all have a body messed up in some way ! Results of years of cooked food don't disappear straight away miraculously without leaving long-lasting damages.
Yup

Quote
Even if we are already thin at the start, we may initially loose some more weight, but after a while (maybe a year) we regain what has been lost and perhaps even more until we reach a normal weight.
I gained weight early on via RPD, though I do start losing again if I don't make a conscious effort to eat hearty and I have lost some weight again since I started experimenting again with raw fruits and raw honey and people are getting concerned again with my weight. I think it has had more to do with being rather busy lately and forgetting to eat or running out of time to eat the necessary amount of food to maintain my weight than with the fruits.

Quote
By forcing yourself to eat more than you instinctively would, you get into a vicious circle of overload in some nutrient your body cannot use at the moment and you may feel therefore less and less hungry.
Haven't experienced that, but thanks for the warning.

Quote
It's also very important when switching to raw food to have enough choice so that you can find what your body needs the most for the time being and to avoid overfeeding on some unneeded nutrients.
Yes, I expanded my choices beyond what Lex eats in part because of this.

Quote
Nothing that could be found in the nature should be excluded a priori for theoretical or idealistic reasons.
Yes, that would be anathema to me. I do what works for me.

Quote
Of course it's not perfect since we are in interaction with our environment and we live in a more or less spoiled situation.  But still sufficient as long as we avoid processed food, dairy, grain and also as long as the foodstuff we may need is available.
In my case I haven't found it sufficient, but this may be due largely to my damaged gut and flora.

Quote
Animals in captivity are often fed unsuitable or processed food and therefore their instinct is somehow fooled.
Correct. However, instincts do not always lead to 100% "optimal" behaviors even in the wild in the sense of what modern humans think of as health optimization. To anthropomorphize: Nature is not "concerned" with optimizing health into old age--it generally just works to ensure the sexual reproduction of species and some species even naturally die out as Nature changes, for Nature is not concerned with ensuring the survival of one single species--so it doesn't always work in what we see as our best interests. We have a different perspective than Nature's. We want to ensure the survival and health optimization of the human species well into old age-especially ourselves as individuals, and even at the expense of countless other species. I am more Instincto than probably 99+% of the human race. I just don't find that it applies 100% perfectly in all cases for me. I find I also need to think consciously about what I'm doing too (such as eating enough food and drinking enough water) in some cases. I think it's important for people like me to share these exceptions to the reported rules so that others in the same boat don't rely solely on instinct and possibly risk their health. It's not meant as a criticism of the basic principles of Instincto.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on June 29, 2010, 09:35:31 am
Ignore the people concerned about your weight. They are chubby and diseased SAD eaters. I am 17.5 on the BMI, yet I have 13-15% bodyfat year round, with the rest LBM. I believe paleo man and women would have had BMIs below what is considered "normal" today. I would hate to look like a normal American woman. Gross!  -v I know you look so much better than most American men, Phil.  :P
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 01, 2010, 05:34:53 am
Thanks Katelyn, but there are some good reasons for me to try to follow their advice and eat hearty. Plentiful calories--especially fat calories--apparently stimulate the thyroid, provide necessary fats for the health of the adrenal glands, and promote testosterone (http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/5/17/diseases-of-civilization-hair-loss.html). These are all areas I might need help in, based on symptoms and current physique.

I've been avoiding carbs more completely and upping my fat levels again and am amazed at the positive results. It's surprising how much negative effect just eating a little bit of carbs from local, organic raw berries and grapes one or two times a week and letting fat intake drop just a little can have. There is much less dry skin on my face and scalp, my mouth and teeth aren't coated with the layer of scum I get overnight from eating organic raw fruits, my hair loss is slightly reduced, and I feel improved. It's not that I felt sick while allowing myself a little fruit, it's just that I didn't get quite as optimal a feeling. It's hard to describe. I missed that mild sense of well being, though I get less of it than I did early on.

The problem is that just raw meat and fat are starting to get boring for me, and I lose weight easily. So I will try to find other ways to keep my interest in food and my calories up than raw organic fruits. I will try to limit my treats to special meats/seafood except for rare occasions. I seem to manage greens and kelp OK, though, and iodine is important for the thyroid, so I will keep eating those.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on July 01, 2010, 11:32:39 am
as soon as i cut down on fruits about 3 months ago i starting seeing much better progress.
i had no idea sugar was so addictive.  before i had to have at least 2 sweet fruits a day.  now i care less about sweets.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on July 02, 2010, 03:00:52 am
I've been avoiding carbs more completely and upping my fat levels again and am amazed at the positive results. It's surprising how much negative effect just eating a little bit of carbs from local, organic raw berries and grapes one or two times a week and letting fat intake drop just a little can have. There is much less dry skin on my face and scalp, my mouth and teeth aren't coated with the layer of scum I get overnight from eating organic raw fruits, my hair loss is slightly reduced, and I feel improved. It's not that I felt sick while allowing myself a little fruit, it's just that I didn't get quite as optimal a feeling. It's hard to describe. I missed that mild sense of well being, though I get less of it than I did early on.

I am smiling at this! I always knew you just wanted fruit for flavor and didn't believe it had any nutritional value. This way of eating just meat, eggs and fat is easy for me and I never get bored of it! I have been eating a little more variety now, though, adding in some pork and lamb. How varied are your meats, Phil?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on July 02, 2010, 03:02:24 am
Would you consider eating some lightly cooked meat (which I don't think "kills" the nutrients) for some flavor and appetite over trying to get nutrition from plant food and tree candy?  -d
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 02, 2010, 09:02:03 am
Yeah, I sometimes eat duck bacon, which is likely heated. Even though producers call the process "cold smoking," it can involve heating the bacon up to 150 degrees, which is still considered uncooked but would not be considered raw by many people here. I also occasionally eat cooked bunless bison patties at work. Any fish below sushi/sashimi quality I tend to cook to make it more palatable and easier to chew. Some fish is rather tough raw but becomes so soft and flaky when cooked that it literally falls apart at the touch.

I spice my meat if I get bored of it plain. I do eat some other types of meats than beef, but unfortunately all other types of pastured meats are more expensive than beef at my market.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 09, 2010, 11:29:46 am
I think I now maybe know what was meant in this TV movie or TV show scene years ago that I vaguely recollect (wish I knew the name of the movie/show):

Native American sidekick character (looking at footprint believed to be that of a murderer): "It's an Indian."
White hero detective: "How do you know?"
NA (pointing at print): "Because he walks toes-first."

When I first saw this I thought he meant that there was little or no heel print. But having walked and run barefoot style for a while now, I think he just meant that the toe prints were more pronounced and the heel print less pronounced. It's possible my feet haven't fully adapted and developed, however.

I notice that when I walk barefoot my toes flex upward above the rest of the foot and then come down and sort of grasp the ground like I was grasping a stick. It's not something I consciously do and it's kind of funny to watch. If this is natural then this could be why Esther Gokhale advocates an exercise in which you use this movement to graps a towel or ball with your toes.

Since laying off fruit again I'm noticing less dry skin and scalp flakes and my teeth have further firmed. I can't wiggle any of them with my tongue right now, which is a first in quite a number of years. What a relief that my teeth are firming instead of loosening--one of them had gotten very lose when I was eating more carbs and my hygienist had been quite concerned that it was going to eventually fall out.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on July 09, 2010, 11:37:02 pm
Quote
I can't wiggle any of them with my tongue right now

were they that loose?  which ones?

my lower front teeth are little loose, but i can only move them with fingers.  it could be the result i'm clinching them at night. my recent visit to dentist did not reveal any bone issue.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: actionhero on July 10, 2010, 01:19:51 am
Since laying off fruit again I'm noticing less dry skin and scalp flakes and my teeth have further firmed.

Great news man. It's good to see that things are improving for you.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 10, 2010, 09:22:31 am
were they that loose?  which ones?
Yes, the lower two front teeth were the loosest, and others had started to loosen.

Great news man. It's good to see that things are improving for you.
Thanks

I was reminded of another health improvement to add to my journal. I often used to get bad shoulder and stomach cramps from fast running (just a vigorous short sprint could trigger it) years ago and would have to stick to mostly slow jogging when they sprang up. Yesterday I realized that they've been gone for many months now (since I started cutting down on carbs) when a comment about cramps reminded me of them and I've been getting more into sprinting for the first time in decades. I even enjoy sprinting now.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on July 10, 2010, 09:41:18 am
please keep reporting your teeth progress, i'm very curious.

i notice my gums behind lower teeth are progressively receding creating deeper pockets.  i really don't like it and not sure what to do about it.  i'm seeing orthodontist next month to check my bite, maybe it has something to do with incorrect bite.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 10, 2010, 09:46:46 am
Yeah, definitely get that checked out, because receding gums accelerate bone loss.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on July 11, 2010, 09:35:26 am
Yay, RZC!  ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 11, 2010, 12:02:57 pm
I still get plaque, though, but I can scrape most of it off myself now, whereas before it was so hard only the hygienist could get it off and she had to put some elbow grease into it. It used to feel like she was cutting up my gums with a razor when I got a cleaning. Now it's a somewhat pleasant feeling.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on July 16, 2010, 01:58:18 pm
The same for me, but since I eat 100% raw, almost no plaque appears and my dentist has been amazed. He congratulated my about my dental hygiene. I didn’t tell him about my diet: it’s difficult to speak while he’s working into your mouth!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 19, 2010, 09:00:53 am
I tried some high meat again for the first time in a while. I was going to swallow it as usual, but noticed it tasted kind of good. So I chewed it and it wasn't half bad. Had a sort of spicy taste to it. It did have a mildly unpleasant ammonia-like aftertaste, though. Like other recent times I've had high meat it caused a tingly/stingy feeling in my tongue and the roof of my mouth. It wasn't particularly unpleasant, though. Raw cod liver oil used to do that to, but not recently. Does anyone know what causes this tingling and why it apparently goes away after you get used to a fermented fish/meat?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on July 19, 2010, 09:14:12 am
How old is it? I didn't experience this until I started eating my 4 month old meat, not other high-meat I had, so I don't know yet if I would adjust to it. In terms of the sensation, if feels like you describe, like a somewhat cooled cigarette on the tongue for me. Only guesses as to why, but there are tons of bacteria and receptors in the mouth.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 20, 2010, 10:57:27 am
The high meat is almost 10 months old now. I have read that the Inuits say high meat starts to get real good after a year.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on July 21, 2010, 10:23:13 am
I haven't noticed too many people letting their meat go too long here (although I know some out there do), but It would be good to get more response. I can only say in my experience (inline with my argument over differences in contemporary peoples to Inuits) that I am leaning heavily towards it being an interaction between the bacteria in the meat, and the corrupt bacteria and fungal overgrowth in the mouth. 8 month being more advanced than 4 of course, but seeing since my other meats (or this same meat at 3 months) did not cause any burning, I imagine their potency was not enough to be so instantly abrasive but probably still therapeutic in the gut. Antifungals like alcohol for instance, usually similarly 'burn' bacteria laden tissue even though the effects on regular tissue like skin are nil. This is all just a hunch of course as my micro-biology is a bit rusty :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 22, 2010, 07:01:09 am
... but seeing since my other meats (or this same meat at 3 months) did not cause any burning, I imagine their potency was not enough to be so instantly abrasive but probably still therapeutic in the gut. Antifungals like alcohol for instance, usually similarly 'burn' bacteria laden tissue even though the effects on regular tissue like skin are nil. This is all just a hunch of course as my micro-biology is a bit rusty :)

Yeah, I think my high meat took about 5-6 months before it started tingling my mouth. I wouldn't call it an abrasive or burning feeling, it's more like the tingling I used to get from walnuts or honey, except more pleasant--sort of invigorating, for lack of a better term--with no associated itchiness. The first few times it was surprising, and I could see how some might be startled or even turned off by it, like William was with Blue Ice CLO, but I figured it was a good sign and got used to it pretty quickly. If my experience w/ the Blue Ice is any indication, I'm guessing that the tingling from high meat will diminish over time if I keep eating it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 22, 2010, 11:42:56 am
The way a tree survives a strong wind is to bend with it. If it's old, dried out and too inflexible to change, it will snap. Similarly, we humans need to re-learn how to make our bodies and societies more flexible and adaptable, and thus more robust. By that I don't mean in the way moderners typically think--by more rapidly adopting ever more artificial diets and lifestyles--but instead by adapting ourselves more to nature instead of always trying to mold and control nature while coddling ourselves.

While I was examining the inside of a tepee at a "pow-wow" in Florida not long after two hurricanes had ravaged the area, the guide inside it explained how the way that tepees let wind travel through them had helped them survive a gale storm during one pow-wow in years past while some nearby buildings were knocked down. Instead of standing firm and stiff against nature, like an old tree or conventional modern building, we should learn to bend and flow with nature, like a young tree or a tepee or a building designed to let hurricane winds flow through it (including the one in the image below that I learned about not long after the hurricanes--though a tepee is still more adaptable :) ):

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qVUoD9EHNdY/SYKAVs1a3YI/AAAAAAAAFLY/iLexkmcCPlw/s400/hurricane-proof-dome-house.jpg)


"In another two hundred million years will Homo sapiens sapiens still have a leading role?

The answer is almost certainly, No—for two reasons. First, if we continue to display the arrogance and profligacy that mark the behavior of so-called civilized people, we will soon have taxed the environment beyond the limits of our own adaptability, if not that of the earth itself. And second, as our condensed history of the earth shows, long-term stability for a single highly-complex species, no matter how adaptable, is biologically out of the question. In many ways our unique culture transcends our biology, and for that reason our future becomes even more uncertain than it might otherwise have been. And the power of culture is such that, rather than question the possible status of our species two hundred million years hence, we had better be concerned about developments in a tiny fraction of that time. For the human species today, two hundred years, let alone two hundred million years, is a very uncertain prospect. Now, more than ever before, we depend on the versatility of our culture to shape our daily lives. Similarly, it is upon the flexibility and strength of our culture that we shall have to rely for the future security of our kind. Through culture we have the power to create a future either of justice and compassion, or of suffering and misery. Culture has endowed us with that much choice.

By searching our long-buried past for an understanding of what we are, we may discover some insight into our future. There is much more than bones and stones buried in those fossil-bearing sediments, there are vital clues to human biology. Through an exploration of the forces that nurtured the birth of the hunting and gathering way of life perhaps three million years ago, and through studying the question of why such a long-established mode of existence was superseded, beginning some 10,000 years ago, by a sedentary agricultural society, we can hope for some insight into modern society, and with it some guide to our future.”--Richard Leakey, Origins (1977), p. 15


"[T]he [current economic] crisis provides an illustration for the need for robustness....

The idea is simply to let human mistakes and miscalculations remain confined, and to prevent their spreading through the system, as Mother Nature does. Reducing volatility and ordinary randomness increases exposure to Black Swans—it creates an artificial quiet.

My dream is to have a true Epistemocracy—that is, a society robust to expert errors, forecasting errors, and hubris, one that can be resistant to the incompetence of politicians, regulators, economists, central bankers, bankers, policy wonks, and epidemiologists."  --Nassim Taleb, http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/robustness.pdf
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 26, 2010, 10:30:18 am
After reading about experiments with HCL supplements and stomach acid deficiency info and considering that my grandmother had pernicious anemia, which results decreased production of gastric acid, I decided to try an HCL supplement. I've taken up to 15 Nature's Life betaine HCL tablets with no stomach burn. According to others this suggests I am deficient in gastric acid. I also tried biting into one of the tablets, out of curiosity, and it was only mildly sour, so I wonder how effective they actually could be, but I'll continue to give them a try.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Paleo Donk on July 26, 2010, 11:54:17 am
Have your bowel movements improved since the HCL?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 28, 2010, 08:59:56 am
No, but it's early yet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 05, 2010, 05:31:59 am
Goodbye Sandman
A symptom that disappeared that I'm not sure whether I reported in the past or not: "sand" in the eyes. I no longer ever get this, regardless of how few or many hours of sleep I get, since going VLC. So perhaps the sandman only visits those who eat substantial carbs? Any other VLC/ZCers experience this?

Wolfing Down Food
I find that I paradoxically have a greater appetite and can wolf more food down more quickly while at the same time never experiencing bad hunger or stomach upset, bloating or pain. I think this is in part because my digestion is much improved. I can eat more like the wolf, intermittently fasting and feasting, running and playing for much of the day without developing pangs of hunger and later gorge without feeling stuffed or nauseas.

Low-carb Plant Food and Seaweed Experiment
I still do have constipation and get some belching from fats, though, so I apparently have a ways to go still. I've been experimenting with small amounts of the following foods that might approximate the wild plants that Stone Agers may have eaten more commonly before they started drying and cooking tubers and eating them as staple foods (but I won't bother to continue eating ones I don't like the taste of or have other issues with—I no longer regard veg as so healthy that one should force oneself or one’s children to eat them if enough meat, fat and organs, and maybe blood or seafood or iodine and magnesium, are being consumed and no problems are being experienced)...

> seaweeds (creatures that are midway between plants and animals): kelp, seaweed salad [interestingly, seaweeds are not weeds or even plants--they're midway between plants and animals, with aspects of both]
> Asteraceae: lettuce (young), endive (chicory), dandelion root, chamomile [avoiding: sunflower, safflower, artichoke]
> Apiaceae: chervil, anise, carrot, celery, fennel [avoiding: parsley, parsnip]
> Rhizomes: ginger [avoiding: asparagus]
> Brassicaceae (aka cruciferae, crucifers): cabbage, broccoli, mustard (especially greens), radish, horseradish, wasabi, watercress, bok choy, arugula [avoiding: rapeseed, brussels sprout, kale, kohlrabi, turnip, rutabaga, cauliflower]
> Allium: scallion, leek, shallot, garlic [avoiding: onion]
> Extra virgin olive oil
> Sesame (the seaweed salad sold at my market includes it and it’s in some of the sushi dishes I occasionally eat)

Some plant foods I tried in the past that I will avoid:
Amaranthaceae: chard, spinach, beet, quinoa, sorrel (Spinach Dock) [other than sorrel, which is sweet, these plants taste crappy to me; the large sorrel sold in markets is expensive and the various species of sorrel are apparently more toxic than most greens]
Flax—works wonders on the skin and wounds but never did anything much for my insides, no matter how much I consumed

Results so far: I don't notice any benefits from these plants/seaweeds, but neither do I notice significant ill effects, other than maybe feeling a little more optimal on days that I only eat meat/fat/organs.

Fear and Avoidance vs. Courage and Robustification: Avoiding all risk vs. making onself Robust/Resilient to Risk

From Wikipedia: "Robustification is a form of optimisation whereby a system is made less sensitive to the effects of random variability, or noise, that is present in that system’s input variables and parameters."

Time and again in recent weeks I've noticed that Mother Culture preaches the gospel of fear, dread and avoidance. MC advocates trying to avoid all risks. This is an impossible feat. Paradoxically, while reducing minor risks, it tends to result in greatly increasing the chances of major risks. For example, by dreading, avoiding and killing bacteria in general, as though they were all "bad", MC has generated new superbacteria that are more virulent and harder to kill than their natural precursors.

Instead of trying to avoid all risks (ex: all bacteria), we should focus on the major ones (ex: botulinum) and robustify ourselves (eat raw meat, high meat and other probiotic foods) to them.

Brilliant folks like Nassim Taleb and Benoît Mandelbrot are applying robustification to other fields beyond diet. It has already become one of the key principles of the 21st century.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on August 05, 2010, 08:55:36 am
Goodbye Sandman
A symptom that disappeared that I'm not sure whether I reported in the past or not: "sand" in the eyes. I no longer ever get this, regardless of how few or many hours of sleep I get, since going VLC. So perhaps the sandman only visits those who eat substantial carbs? Any other VLC/ZCers experience this?
I had not realized this until you just mentioned it but I've had the same results.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 07, 2010, 08:43:55 am
Forgot to mention that last Thursday I had an eye-opening experience about how badly I still can be affected by gluten at the company BBQ. I ate 2 or 3 big pieces of chicken and 2 sets of ribs smothered in sweet BBQ sauce. The sauce likely contained some gluten because several hours later I developed nausea, was doubled over by pain, experienced weird and unpleasant daydreams, tinnitus, mucus flowing up my throat to my mouth that had to be spit out to avoid choking, and music repeating in head. The next morning I had a sore throat, sinus congestion, yuck-mouth, and mental fog. All of these are symptoms I used to get before I cut out gluten, so I suspect that the BBQ sauce had some. Last year I had some mild discomfort from the BBQ, but this year they really slathered the sauce on. Stupid of me not to at least stick to the chicken breast and take the skin off it. I'll try to remember this lesson next year.

Now the good news. I tried about a 1/4 cup of berries this morning at the cafeteria and handled it pretty well. So when I saw wild organic Maine blueberries for sale at the market I bought a pint. I ate a cup of them and measured by BG before and 1 hour postprandial. The 1 hour number was actually lower than the measure before I ate the berries! Plus, these berries didn't leave a film on my teeth like most other fruits. Not surprising, really, because they aren't very sweet. Less sweet than the usual supermarket berries--even the organic ones. So wild berries may be a fruit I can handle.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 07, 2010, 08:35:14 pm
I decided to really put these wild berries to the test and ate the rest of the pint. I did get a very mild bit of acne but it isn't even visible, and I did also get a sore throat this morning--another common issue I get from carbs--so the berries weren't totally benign for me, but not too bad.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on August 07, 2010, 08:55:44 pm
wild organic Maine blueberries for sale at the market I bought a pint. I ate a cup of them and measured by BG before and 1 hour postprandial. The 1 hour number was actually lower than the measure before I ate the berries!

    Yay!  I'm glad you found another food you may be able to eat.  :) 

    I love blueberries too.  I almost got some decent ones at a farm here, but the rains came too late, and they dried up before ripening.

    I had bbq sauce at a party too once since RAF.  It was so nice to be served a big thick raw steak, that I didn't complain about the sauce they had on it.  No noticeable reaction for me though.  Sorry it made you so sick.  That's terrible.  Bbbq sauce usually has vinegar in it.  Typical American vinegar is made from grain, but I don't know which grain.  I assume wheat.  Most vinegars make me bleed all over.  I've never been able to use most, but Braggs AppleCV is one of the few I can deal with if not overdone.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 10, 2010, 07:32:03 pm
This past weekend I went to NJ with my parents to celebrate the birthday's of my mother and aunt. I ate the closest-to-Paleo foods available, which included some berries, peaches and potatoes. I got some of the usual symptoms from plant carbs of fatigue, yawning, scum on the teeth, morning breath, etc. from the plant carbs.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 14, 2010, 06:06:34 am
Vivo Barefoot Shoes

While walking on the local river trail I removed my shoes and placed them on a log away from the trail so that I could go for a barefoot walk/sprint combo and then wade in a stream. I thought I had put them far enough out of obvious sight, but when I returned I discovered that they were gone. I had passed some youths that looked of college age and guessed that one of the boys probably threw them in the adjacent river. Sure enough, there they were. It turned out to be lucky for me, though, because when I rinsed the mud out I noticed that they have removable inserts. I removed the inserts and they now feel much better on my feet.

It's pretty ridiculous for a company that promotes barefoot walking to stick inserts in its shoes and not even mention it in the literature. I imagine that they're there for people who need time to adjust to barefoot-style shoes, but they should at least mention that they're there and can be removed.

As for the shoes--I already loved them and now I super-love them. My main complaint was that the sole was too thick and now it seems sufficiently thin to me--like a moccasin. I now get a very good feel of the ground that massages my feet more. It also caused me to notice that I was still using too much heel and my walking style rapidly adjusted.

High Meat and Food Storage Observations

Most folks unacquainted with high meat and aged meats and fats assume that all aged meat is the same and all rots in a disgusting way and all tastes awful. My experience is that these are all false assumptions. For example, grassfed suet left in plastic in the fridge for a few days gets moist and semi-gross looking and tastes awful to me, but grassfed suet aged in a paper bag in a cabinet dries a bit and tastes good and tastes better the longer it's left to age (it often eventually develops what tastes to me like a slight cinnamon note, believe it or not). As a matter of fact, air-drying suet was the only way I could get myself to eat much of it raw. (Warning: don't store air-dried ground beef in a paper bag, as it absorbs flavors and will thus absorb a paper taste--not a problem with jerky, though).

Once I left meat that was still in the original plastic too long in the fridge. The plastic bulged like a balloon (likely due to gases emitted by toxic bacteria--healthy meat bacteria emit much less gas). Foolishly, I opened the package and bit into the meat anyway, curious as to how improperly rotted meat would taste (and momentarily forgetting about the chance that there might be harmful levels of pathogenic bacteria). It tasted awful and tasted completely different from my high meat fermented for much longer in a glass jar and aired out every 4-7 days (the recommended time frame is shorter, but I nearly always forget to do it on time, but haven't had any problems).

So whatever your negative assumptions about high meat, erase them from your mind. It tastes pretty bad to begin with, but you gradually get used to it and I'm even starting to like it a little (it has reached the point where it has a spicy taste reminiscent of black pepper with a little salt, and it tingles my tongue now, like the way raw fermented cod liver oil did when I first tried it).

The longer meats and fats are left in plastic or metal containers, the worse they taste. The longer they are left in the open air, the better they taste. Time and time again, plastic and metal seem to be the key problem when it comes to storing foods. Try to avoid using them.

Nowadays, as soon as I get food home, whatever I don't put into the freezer I either remove from the plastic or open the plastic to the air. For example, with cabbage and salad greens I open the plastic bags they come in and cover the opening with a paper towel to keep them dry and avoid wilting them. If the plastic bags are left closed in the fridge, they rapidly become soggy and bad tasting. With grassfed ground beef and grassfed suet I immediately remove whatever I'm not going to freeze. Whatever beef I don't air dry I put in glass containers.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 14, 2010, 05:39:01 pm
Do you now get some of the benefits from high-meat re mood-improvement/energy-levels?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 15, 2010, 05:04:33 am
Haven't noticed any. Maybe that's because I eat plenty of raw meat and fat and fermented CLO, though that wouldn't explain why the Inuit get a high effect. Maybe they eat larger quantities at one time.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 22, 2010, 05:43:58 am
Yesterday I finished the one bag of apples I bought minus one (the last one was too rotten to eat) and eating one or two apples a day was a failed experiment. The dead skin I used to get inside my cheeks when I ate plant carbs returned, I got a painful cystic zit on my nose, my anxiety levels went up, my sleep quality deteriorated and my constipation only improved for a couple days, which could have been due to other factors I was employing. The symptoms weren't as bad as in the past, probably because my intake was limited. I noticed tiny bits of some of the symptoms within a day, but it took close to a week for them to become obvious, which explains how I didn't realize the extent of my carb/symptoms connection in the past, though I had suspected it. In the past I thought if I just kept my carbs down to what I thought were reasonable LC levels (around 20-30% of calories), that would be enough, but when I started cutting back further it quickly became apparent that further cuts helped.

Wild Maine blueberries in season, limited to 1/2 cup or so at a time, and other berries or red/black grapes limited to 1/4 cup or so, and restricted to a few days every couple weeks, seems to be about my limit for fruit.

I learned that there's a Japanese yam that can be eaten raw, though to eat the skin requires using Neolithic vinegar (but peeling resolves that issue):

Yam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(vegetable)

".... An exception to the cooking rule is the Japanese mountain yam (Dioscorea opposita), known as nagaimo or yamaimo depending on the root shape.

It is eaten raw and grated, after only a relatively minimal preparation: the whole tubers are briefly soaked in a vinegar-water solution to neutralize irritant oxalate crystals found in their skin. The raw vegetable is starchy and bland, mucilaginous when grated, and may be eaten plain as a side dish, or added to noodles. The purple yam is popular as lightly deep fried tempura as well as being grilled or boiled. Additionally, the purple yam is a common ingredient of yam ice cream with the signature purple color."
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on August 22, 2010, 08:37:34 am
Stop eating fruit, please! Lol, you are like a guy that keeps asking out a girl in a new way, and she keeps saying no! Fruit doesn't like you, stick to meat and be happy you are eating food created for mankind and not sissy tree candy.  :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 22, 2010, 04:53:53 pm
Stop eating fruit, please! Lol, you are like a guy that keeps asking out a girl in a new way, and she keeps saying no!

Men are repeatedly taught by experiment that when girls say no one day or when asked in one way they often say yes another day or when asked in an other way  ;D  
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 23, 2010, 03:50:05 am
But Tyler says that Harris' and Taubes' claims about the downsides of fruits are ridiculous! ;) LOL Some people like Tyler do seem to handle fruits better, and I won't argue with that--if it works for you go for it--but I certainly don't seem to handle fruits well. For me, despite being a fruit lover and hoping they would work for me, fruits do generally seem to have the effect of tree candy, and if that pisses off some of my fellow fruit lovers, too bad. The truth hurts sometimes. With luck they'll survive the fact that someone doesn't thrive on fruits.

The apple thing was more a fiber experiment than a fruit experiment. I'm focused on trying to resolve the constipation now, because it seems to be getting a bit worse. Unfortunately the experiment was a big failure after only a single bag of apples (that I didn't even finish). Some of the old symptoms started returning and it didn't help with the bowels. So much for the miracle of fruits.

I'm also curious about whether I can put a halt to my hair loss, the way Lex and Danny Roddy did. Its continuation tells me that my immune system is still likely attacking my hair cell proteins, which would mean that it's still a little out of control. That might involve denaturing bovine serum albumin proteins, either through heating or fermentation. Would air-drying do that at all? I'm also thinking of trying to eat more of other types of meat, if I can find my antibody test results.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on August 23, 2010, 04:42:30 am
omg paleophil, you're beating yourself up forcing fruits, lol.

as for constipation... extra fat?  can you eat coconut oil?  when i used to eat it (quite a while ago), it was like an instant bowel movement for me.  that's really embarrassing, btw, but i'm just trying to help :D 

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on August 23, 2010, 07:41:32 am
Paleophil what do you mean by constipation...? If you mean you have a bloated discomfort in your guts I'd recommend eating fresh lean'ish raw beef.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on August 23, 2010, 09:36:09 am
Paleophil what do you mean by constipation...? If you mean you have a bloated discomfort in your guts I'd recommend eating fresh lean'ish raw beef.

Really?  Fat moves me  :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 23, 2010, 09:55:58 am
omg paleophil, you're beating yourself up forcing fruits, lol.

as for constipation... extra fat?  can you eat coconut oil?  when i used to eat it (quite a while ago), it was like an instant bowel movement for me.  that's really embarrassing, btw, but i'm just trying to help :D  


LOL, I'd like to blame it on all the talk about sweet, juicy fruits at this forum, but I know it's up to me to try to block that out and resist. There's less temptation at the Dirty Carnivore forum and they're a better influence on me, but there's still some more I'd like to learn here too about the raw and Paleo aspects of my diet. Fat helps a little, but I can eat tons and tons of fat without getting diarrhea. I shock people with this ability. For example, for years my father told me to take flaxseed oil, without any noticeable benefit. I got fed up and I drank an entire 10 oz glass of flaxseed oil to prove to him and a friend that no amount of flaxseed oil gave me diarrhea or helped with my constipation at all. LOL I think that finally convinced him--at least he doesn't bug me to take flaxseed oil any more. And wouldn't you know it, since then multiple sources have indicated that flaxseed oil is not even all that healthy after all. I even got scolded at the Paleofood forum for daring to even mention using it.

People are also shocked when they see me eat suet and lots of fatty meats. Coconut oil gives me nausea and indigestion and is much more expensive than animal fat, but I may try that again some day for kicks.

Paleophil what do you mean by constipation...? If you mean you have a bloated discomfort in your guts I'd recommend eating fresh lean'ish raw beef.
No bloating or discomfort, no. I mean #1-2 on the Bristol stool scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale. Usually dry, hard pellets that are difficult to pass. Constipation has been a lifelong problem for me. It had gradually gotten worse over the years and become IBS-C with D, but the RPD did calm it down to just plain chronic constipation. I already eat lots of fresh raw beef and I've never heard of someone claiming that lean meat helps with constipation--usually they say just the opposite and I do find that fat helps more than lean, though not completely.

It's funny the way any time I mention constipation here, people tend to doubt me and I have to explain it repeatedly. I've run into this with a couple of physicians in the past too, including one who was rather rude, so I never mentioned it to him again (and I didn't like talking about it in the first place). It took me years to get over the social embarrassment of talking about it and I finally started asking about it when I tried various things and nothing worked and I was getting fed up with it. There seems to be this widespread feeling that most people who have chronic constipation don't really, so that people like me who really do have it have to answer all sorts of questions. The Bristol stool scale is a big help, because it's a single standard that nearly everyone can agree on and easily understand. Unfortunately, it means looking at images of poop, but it's the best way I've found to explain it.

Coincidentally, constipation and multiple sclerosis run in my mother's side of the family, including with my grandfather who looked a lot like me, and constipation is a common symptom of MS. I don't have MS, but I did have some other symptoms that my grandfather had and the gluten intolerance I have also runs in my mother's side of the family. So I think I still likely have some gut damage and autoimmunity. I have some other unresolved symptoms of this too--mainly underweight and continued hair loss. RPD has helped (I'm no longer withering away to near death and my hair loss slowed, for example), but I still have some ways to go.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: wodgina on August 23, 2010, 10:02:29 am
Wow, are you sure it's not stress related? anger?

you seem like a nice guy, caring , hard worker etc

This makes you prone to back pain, IBS, anxiety etc. IMO

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 23, 2010, 10:37:31 am
Wow, are you sure it's not stress related? anger?

you seem like a nice guy, caring , hard worker etc

This makes you prone to back pain, IBS, anxiety etc. IMO


LOL, no I've heard that suggestion before and I've tried relaxation techniques like yoga and meditation (and still do them because I enjoy them) and even tried relaxing medications, but that didn't help noticeably with the constipation and it doesn't correlate directly with stress that I've noticed over the years--I wish it were that easy. Stress can probably worsen it some in some people, but when constipation is chronic, at most daily stressors can vary the intensity a bit in some people and in me there is little to no correlation. Stress is more another symptom than a cause. Some stressful days it will be pretty good and some very relaxed days it will be at its worst. As a matter of fact, it tends to get a bit worse on vacations, I think because I get out of my routine a bit, and going at regular times and eating at regularly times helps a bit.

And no, I don't have a lot of anger and my anxiety is much reduced since going Paleo years ago and reduced even more when I went VLC/ZC and still a little more when I went raw, and the IBS cleared up, thank heavens, yet the constipation continues and has even gotten a touch worse after a brief period of improvement, despite continued low anxiety levels. As a matter of fact, people remark to me at how calm and serene I am and how it's difficult for anyone to get me angry or flustered no matter how much they pester me.

These are the sorts of questions I often get, though, because I think many people assume that constipation and IBS are mostly somehow mental. Like people bring it on themselves or something. It's rare for people to acknowledge that gut flora imbalances, damage to the epithelial cells in the intestine, digestive intolerances, immune system malfunction and other factors can be involved, despite hundreds of studies making the links. I guess it's just a minor burden I'll have to bear until this problem is resolved. Don't worry, though, I'm used to such questions at this point and they don't bother me.

When my IBS mostly cleared up my hopes were raised that my constipation would fully resolve too--especially when it significantly improved for a few weeks after going all raw. All I can do is keep working at it. Some things like senna and coffee do help, but I don't think it's wise to take either of those every day. Plus, the effectiveness of the senna seems to decline over time and too much coffee gives my gas and indigestion.

My grandfather had chronic constipation, and he was one of the most peaceful, happy and positive people I've known. It got worse in his later years even though he was retired and taking it easy. I think the worsening of it had more to do with his worsening MS than his demeanor.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on August 23, 2010, 11:00:11 am
Quote
Fat helps a little, but I can eat tons and tons of fat without getting diarrhea.

I didn't mean diarrhea... fat (not in excess, though) just makes me go, lol.  For sure 10 oz any oil would hurt me  -[
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 23, 2010, 11:46:10 am
I didn't mean diarrhea... fat (not in excess, though) just makes me go, lol.  For sure 10 oz any oil would hurt me  -[
LOL, yeah, I'm sure it would hurt a lot of people. Stuff that gives other people diarrhea either has no effect on me or acts like a mild laxative. To give you an idea of what it's like, you know how people complain about how bad it is, with sometimes violent, frequent diarrhea when they have to take that Golightly stuff and get cleaned out before a colonoscopy? For me it wasn't unpleasant at all. It was just like taking a good laxative that actually worked for me. It took quite a long time before it kicked in and it had a rather gentle effect. I was waiting for the horrible part that people told me about, but it never came. I was surprised that I even managed to get cleaned out. Eventually I was even given a Px by a gastroenterologist to take a smaller dose of that Golightly stuff on a daily basis! And it only helped a little! :o If that doesn't convince people that it's more than just some stress or anxiety, I don't know what will. :D

Remember, my constipation has been lifelong and runs in the family, along with MS, Parkinson's, diabetes types 1 and 2 and other diseases and disorders of civilization, so it's not just a matter of an occasional stress-triggered constipation or something minor like that. When most people think of constipation they tend to think of the occasional, minor sort. My colon was examined and found to be abnormally long, which was diagnosed as "Redundant Colon" and is one physical result of long-term chronic constipation. To make matters worse, redundant colon contributes to constipation and is sometimes even treated with surgery to resolve it ("Redundant colon as a cause of constipation," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1413317/). I probably should have mentioned that to begin with, but it's not something I'm fond of talking about, and I don't want to give up and assume I'm beyond help--I like to stay positive and hopeful and I've seen ancestral dieting do some amazing, supposedly impossible things already for me, and I did have those few weeks of marked improvement in constipation (though not total resolution), so I'm "keeping hope alive." :D

Maybe the medical community should come up with a new term for serious, chronic constipation so people don't confuse it with occasional irregularity.


On the bright side, I just noticed that a bunch more of the vertical ridges on my fingernails have recently started to disappear. Strangely, the improvement is mostly on my thumbnails. Some of the improvements from diet are rather bizarre and I never would have predicted them. If I tried to show it to a physician he would probably think I went nuts or something. :) One benefit of this is it has really opened my mind and caused me to question a lot of things, and I'm also seeing how certain phenomena apply across multiple fields of science, but most of the scientists and thinkers aren't making the connections because they're so focused on their own specialty. There are some brilliant exceptions, though, like Mandelbrot and Taleb.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: wodgina on August 23, 2010, 12:19:00 pm
I had constipation for 10 years. Everyday. That was my main IBS symptom.

I know what you talk about, I am too embarassed to talk about the extreme lengths I've had to take. So my thoughts are not to be taken lightley on the subject.



Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 23, 2010, 03:45:44 pm
PaleoPhil, I suggest you give a try to pure ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate intake in the high dose form. It's known to trigger bowel movement when dose exceeds some theshhold that might be above many g (not mg !) and vit C is anyway also a nice antioxidant that might be useful in your case.
There is essentially no risk, you can safely experiment with increasing doses beginning for instance with 1 g and increasing up to 10 or even 20g or more. I have no experience myself with it but for many people with constipation it seems to work and has probably other healing effects. Might be useful as a temporary cure or relief.

Not paleo of course, but IMO to heal damage caused by neolithic food or foolish way of life, neolithic means and orthomolecular "drugs" might well be sometimes useful and even indispensable. There is no logical contradiction of this with the paradigm of this forum.  

 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Hanna on August 23, 2010, 06:03:48 pm
Phil, re constipation/fruit: You could try melons of all sorts, coconut (!), papaya. No banana, unless they are overripe. I like banana most if their peel is already black.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 24, 2010, 07:42:07 am
I had constipation for 10 years. Everyday. That was my main IBS symptom.

I know what you talk about, I am too embarassed to talk about the extreme lengths I've had to take. So my thoughts are not to be taken lightley on the subject.

Ah, I didn't know you were thinking of your own experience and didn't mean to give the impression that I would take your experience lightly. Feel free to share what worked for you, if you like. I was in a silly mood at the time and I guess I was chuckling at the irony of your post given that I was feeling good and jamming to some positive music at the time and thinking of the marvelous calm, serenity and at times even euphoria I've experienced over the last year or so, despite the continued constipation (although it has improved from the IBS it used to be). I have been having less of the euphoria very recently, though, so maybe that's a clue of some sort, or maybe my body is just getting used to my diet at this point. I think Tyler mentioned that the euphoria he got from high meat eventually wears off if he eats it frequently.

One thing I've been doing in recent months, per the inspiration of Eckhard Tolle, is to not just take 15 minutes out of each day to meditate and breath yogically, but to incorporate meditation and yogic breathing into my daily life, the way I try to incorporate exercise into it. I use many of the little breaks during the day as opportunities for meditation, such as if I'm waiting at a stop light in traffic or waiting for a computer to finish loading a document to the screen or to run a report. Also, unless there's a need for me to speak quickly, I try to speak in a somewhat meditative way to people. I've noticed that many people are hyper and stressed out these days, and my meditative behavior seems to relax many of them as well as me. I can't go overboard with it at work, though, else I'd probably come across as slow and lazy, but several people have remarked that I don't seem to let anyone get to me.

Thanks for the suggestions, Alphagruis and Hanna. Believe it or not, I have tried multiple grams of ascorbic acid (I think it was up to 2-3 g or so in a day) on multiple occasions with zero effect on my bowels. I seem to be a mystery to medical science. I actually had a physician tell me words to that effect once. :) About how many grams would you guess I should try? Maybe I should go for a world record (joke :P ). I know Linus Pauling recommended 10 g per day, but acidic stuff like ascorbic acid is hard on my stomach and I don't care for some of the ingredients in the buffered kins.

I think I'll be going easy on the fruit for a while, Hanna, as several of my symptoms started to relapse with apples and I still haven't quite gotten back to where I was yet. I have been thinking about trying coconut oil again some day, despite the past nausea from it. If I can stomach small amounts it would give me another fat source and add some more variety to my diet, though I can't imagine it becoming a staple food--especially when animal fats are much cheaper. How do you eat your coconut and coconut oil?

Bananas do a negative number on me. I'm amazed that some people can eat 30 bananas a day without dying. I thought bananas and fruit smoothies would help with my potassium deficiency and weight gain, but they only made both issues and others worse.

Boy, you really know you're in a pro-fruit forum when people recommend fruit to you right after fruits did a number on you. ;)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 24, 2010, 04:40:47 pm
Have you tried either long-term fasting or Intermittent Fasting yet as a solution?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 24, 2010, 07:00:43 pm
I've tried IF, but I lose too much weight, so I usually eat 2x /day.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 25, 2010, 10:01:47 am
I went to the market yesterday and while there I figured I may as well buy the ascorbic acid and coconut oil and give them a shot. I made the ascorbic acid pure by dumping the pure powder out of the capsules they come in. As Dr. Ron explains, the magnesium stearate crap is a lubricant. Some of it winds up on the surface of the capsules, so if you discard the capsules, you discard the magnesium stearate. I tried 3 g. It was nasty tasting and the acid was harsh on my stomach, just as I remembered it. I also tried a half tsp of coconut oil. That little bit gave me rapid and extensive nausea, also like the last time I tried it. I had a very tiny improvement in bowels today, so I'll try 6 g of ascorbic acid tonight, but I'll keep it in the capsules to avoid worse stomach upset. I'll also try 1/4 tsp coconut oil.

The market was out of the ever-popular suet, so I grudgingly bought some lard (I know, Tyler, that means I'm going to die ;) ), which always seems to be plentiful. For the first time, I liked the taste of it, especially refrigerated into a cool semi-solid. I also bought and ate mostly raw ground pork instead of beef this time, hoping to calm down my immune system some more.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 25, 2010, 04:05:59 pm
WARNING: I do NOT recommend taking 6 g of ascorbic acid at once! I woke up in the middle of the night with reflux that was choking me and making it difficult to breathe and feeling nauseous. The ascorbic acid burned my throat as it came back up and the nasty taste of ascorbic acid filled my throat and mouth. The paralysis of sleep made it difficult to move, but luckily my nasal passages were only partially blocked off and I managed to breathe through my nose. I struggled to get up and was able to resume breathing freely. My brain was barely awake and confused about what was going on, but luckily it slowly became alarmed and kicked further into consciousness. I was half dreaming, half awake. My first conscious thought was that I was just having a bad dream in which I felt ill, but the choking persisted and in retrospect it seemed like the primitive part of my brain awakened somewhat further, with some alarm and confusion and it worked at trying to figure out what was happening.

It was the first reflux I've had in for quite a while--I can't remember when the last time was--and the 2nd worst reflux episode I've ever had. It's quite a helpless feeling to have one's muscles nearly paralyzed while one is choking. The survival reflex didn't kick in this time, so I didn't jerk up and didn't quickly come to full consciousness like I did during my worst past reflux episode years ago when the reflux quickly became a full stream of vomit and completely cut off my air. I think the fact that I was still able to get some oxygen through my nose this time, whereas I was fully suffocating during the worst episode, accounts for this.

I thought I might have had a slight therapeutic effect from 3 g of ascorbic acid and I thought that Alphagruis' recommendation of many grams of it and Linus Pauling's therapeutic treatment of 10 g per day (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/) meant that 6 g would be relatively safe to try once, but I was wrong.

Ironically, my constipation worsened, rather than improved. Overall an utter failure of an experiment. Never again for me. Lesson learned.

Here are some reported potential side effects from Ascorbic Acid Controlled-Release Capsules (I took the ordinary kind, rather than time-release):

Quote
Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Ascorbic Acid Controlled-Release Capsules:

Diarrhea; nausea; upset stomach; vomiting.

Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Ascorbic Acid Controlled-Release Capsules:
Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); kidney stones (eg, abdominal pain/back pain, painful urination).

Read more: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/ascorbic-acid-side-effects.html#ixzz0xbYI3Yy6
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: goodsamaritan on August 25, 2010, 06:12:38 pm
Constipation - colon toning and restoration - these things have worked for me:

Colon cleanser: Dr. Tam's Miracle Tea
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols-and-treatments/colon-cleansing/doctor-tams-miracle-tea/

Colon function restoration: Barefoot Herbalist MH Lower Bowel Balance
http://barefootherbalistmh.com
(took this for 1 month)

I also modified my pooping stance so I am technically more squatting than sitting on the toilet bowl.

I'm trying to back read your problem and it seems it is constipation?

LBB is wonderful as it trains the colon to be self sufficient. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 26, 2010, 04:23:19 am
Unfortunately I passed out on the floor during the night after my first bout of reflux and woke with more acute reflux and nausea. Luckily, the diarrhea finally came, so I avoided having to vomit up the burning acidic stuff, but the diarrhea was nasty. It was violent and accompanied by nausea and it was horribly foul smelling. It went on mercilessly for quite a while. I vowed during it that I would never take many grams of ascorbic acid again. To avoid another bout of reflux I slept in the tub with my head elevated, which worked rather well and I was finally able to sleep through the rest of the by now morning, though not well, and I still woke with some stomach upset, occasional mild refluxes, gas, malaise and muscle aches. The awful taste of ascorbic acid occasionally comes up my throat, reminding me of my foolish error born of frustration.

Well I'm sorry PaleoPhil.

I think that ascobic acid whatever the dose should be taken in solution of pure stuff in water. If the acid taste appears to be too harsh just stop drinking and intake or switch to a solution of sodium ascorbate. I do not recommand to buy capsules but rather the pure stuff in the form of powder.
I know you were only trying to help, Alphagruis. I guess this has been a lesson for both of us--be careful what you recommend and how you recommend it and be careful what recommendations you follow and how you follow them. I suppose thorough research beforehand and increased caution by both of us might have helped in this case. I had some experience with vitamin C and had done some past research, and unfortunately put too much reliance on this and my high opinion of you. In my impatience for progress I didn't investigate further before embarking on the experiment.

The capsules contain the pure powder, so you can just empty the capsules to get the pure powder and put it in water. There was no plain powder available at the market and I wasn't about to buy a big bottle of powder when I hadn't even determined yet that the stuff would be safe and effective for me. On the contrary, I looked for and bought the smallest quantity of it that was available, to test it first.

I do see what you mean about how taking this nasty stuff directly in water prevents you from taking too much of a dose, but this also prevented beneficial effect on my bowels. I used your method the first day and couldn't get beyond 3 g of ascorbic acid, so that would have stopped me at that level or lower if I tried the same the next day, but that level had little effect (so small that I'm not sure that it really had any effect at all, though enough of a hint of softening that I decided to try upping the dose, unfortunately), and there's no way I would drink pure ascorbic acid in water again anyway. It tasted nasty and even the 3 g was hard on my stomach, even with trying to buffer it with food. I thought that maybe taking the capsules and buffering with water and food would enable it to get past the stomach and duodenum and maybe digest better, but it didn't work.

In retrospect I wonder why is the body expelling the vitamin C with diarrhea and potentially vomiting unless it views it as very bad to have that level in the body? From a natural perspective, it seems like it wouldn't be a good idea to use megadoses of vitamin C except in rare, acute circumstances when nothing else works. On the other hand, taking excess doses of magnesium has a similar effect and that's generally regarded as safe up to a certain point. Magnesium is far less harsh for me than pure ascorbic acid powder in water, and actually settles my stomach, so between the two I would definitely choose Mg and don't recommend pure ascorbic acid powder to anyone. Also in retrospect, I should have known that ascorbic acid would not be a good idea, because even the acid of orange juice is upsetting to my stomach and tends to give me reflux. My father has the same problem with it and his doctor of decades ago told him to avoid citrus juices and coffee, after which his reflux symptoms disappeared. This is a relatively common problem, from what I've seen on the Internet, but fruit fans never seem to mention it and perhaps many of them are unaware of it. In my frustration with chronic constipation I forgot to consider this problem.

Perhaps some benefit can come out of this misery by my serving as a warning to others about the potential dangers of megadoses of ascorbic acid and about the disturbing lack of discussion of potential dangers among Burger and his followers and other highly ideological dietary groups, such as the 30-BAD crowd. Beware wherever the focus seems more on ideology and propagation of the faith than on consideration and open discussion of ALL effects--harmful as well as helpful.

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In France it's available for wine growers in cheap 1kg bags. You can get it in the US for instance here:

http://www.sourcenaturals.com/search/?terms=sodium+ascorbate
This is one of those rare instances when I can feel justified saying hell no! Never again. It would be unwise and irrational for me to do that given my experiences on both occasions I tried it and I humbly suggest that you don't recommend it to anyone without strong warnings about the potential problems of severe diarrhea and nausea and with chronic use for gastritis and kidney stones (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-vitaminc.html), which are commonly listed as side effects for high doses of ascorbic acid, and from my experience I would add stomach upset and reflux. I despised ascorbic acid in the pure-powder-with-water form. It was harsh on my stomach and even 3 g produced a little reflux with very little benefit, which are the reasons why I tried leaving it in the capsules. I could probably manage the vitamin C powder drinks, which are buffered with refined sugar, but I don't handle refined sugar well, or any sweetener for that matter, and would rather not take it as a regular treatment. My problem is not a occasional constipation, but chronic. This is an important distinction that bears repeating, as many people are only personally familiar with acute constipation and wrongly assume that all constipation is the same. I already have senna and mega dose magnesium, which I far, far prefer to ascorbic acid, for the acute cases of particularly bad constipation. I need something I can take nearly every day.

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Now, if Vit C doesn't help maybe, as Iguana already suggested as far as I can remember, you should also give a try to cassia fistula, the fruit used by instinctos and claimed by Burger to help in body detox. This might well bear some truth and at any rate whenever I used it to this purpose it invariably triggered bowel movement in me a few hours after intake.

This is a legume whose fruit contains quinones well known for their laxative properties.
Yes, cassia fistula is a legume, like senna and both contain quinones (the quinones in senna that are the main active ingredients are senna glycosides). Senna is readily available where I live, but I've never seen cassia fistula fruit, which is probably why I've never seen it recommended anywhere except this forum and Burger's Anopsology.

Senna works OK for me acutely. The bowels it produces are mildly unpleasant and malodorous, however, and become black and the odd unpleasantness increases (as though toxins were going through my bowel, irritating it and producing mild nausea, and this is apparently part of how they work) if I take a higher dose of senna--again it seems that the body is trying to get rid of it and legumes like senna are regarded as toxic in raw Paleo for the lack of human biological adaptation to them, for the lectins and other toxic antinutrients they contain, and for the fact that most of them need to be cooked to reduce their toxins to digestible levels, so I'm trying to find something less toxic to use on a regular basis and save the senna and high-dose Mg for rare occasions.

Have you done any research on cassia fistula yourself and have you read any of the reports from Cordain's international team of scientists on plant antinutrients? I hope you're not just relying on Burger's recommendation. I see Cordain and his colleagues (Eaton, Bastos, Lindeberg, and others) as much more credible than Burger. I haven't seen any evidence that cassia fistula is toxic in occasional acute doses, but I haven't found any research at all on chronic use, which is concerning. After all, most people don't consider any of the non-Paleo or cooked foods as toxic, but we here know better. I'm particularly looking for something I can use relatively regularly--preferably a nontoxic food. Ascorbic acid seemed like something sufficiently benign that I could take it more than just occasionally, but boy was I mistaken!

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One eats just the sweet fruitpulp (only if attractive according to instincto stance  ;)) that surrounds the seeds. The latter are toxic.
If the fruit were also not mildly toxic by including milder levels of toxins like quinone glycosides, it would likely not have nearly as much of a laxative effect. This is one thing that many fruit fans don't seem to be aware of--that even fruits as well as seeds and other parts of plants can contain toxic substances. Fruits are not always totally free of toxins, they just usually contain lower concentrations of defensive chemicals and less toxic varieties. The fruit-plant strategy seems to be to include just enough insecticide-type toxins to discourage small predators that aren't large enough to consume the seeds and spread them through defecation, but not so much that the fruit becomes bitter to larger animals that can spread the seeds of the fruit.

Not just plants, but also arthropods take advantage of the toxic nature of quinones to defend themselves against predators:

"Some of the quinones don't get used up, but sit on the epidermis, making the arthropod distasteful. (Quinones are used as defensive secretions in a variety of modern arthropods, from beetles to millipedes. [Eisner, 1970])" (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html)

So it's not that quinones are inherently nontoxic, it's that the levels in sources like cassia fistula and senna are not concentrated enough to be toxic for large animals like humans in the short term. What effects they have over the longer term is an unknown, though the research on other legumes suggests that there may be potential for some harm.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 26, 2010, 08:15:43 am
Man, I'm feeling worse again from that ascorbic acid, with intestinal cramps, reflux burps that have that awful ascorbic acid taste and increasing malaise. I hope I don't miss a second day of work because of this.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 27, 2010, 05:32:38 am
Hi Phil,

Of course I did not mean coconut oil, but coconuts.
Yes, I know you meant coconuts, Hanna, thanks. Coconut water makes me nauseous and I don't like the idea of just throwing it out so as to eat the coconut meat, which I seem to handle relatively well, although I suppose I could try diluting it with water. Plus coconuts have to be shipped quite a distance (think less fresh and use of fossil fuels) and I also find it a hassle to have to open coconuts and separate the meat from the pith, so I don't think I'll ever make them a staple food, though I occasionally buy one (about once a year). It was my idea to try coconut oil again, because I can eat a tiny amount at a time, it preserves well and it provides another fat option. Fats are important to my diet because I don't eat much carbs. I doubt that I'll make coconut oil a regular part of my diet, though, for some of the above and other reasons (like expense--animal fats are much cheaper).

Interestingly, I was curious as to whether adding Maine wild blueberries, which I seem to handle better than any other fruit, to coconut oil might make coconut oil more digestible for me, as some sugars seem to settle my stomach. So today I made a sort of akutaq (Yupik word meaning "mix them together" that refers to soft and/or liquid fats mixed with meat, fish and/or berries) with lard, coconut oil, a little lemon fish oil, and some Maine wild blueberries. It seemed to work even better than I expected. I was able to eat much more coconut oil this way than I normally can, and didn't experience any of the usual nausea.

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And just a warning to prevent another disaster: Cassia fistula can cause abdominal pain, even if eaten instinctively.
Thanks for the warning, that might explain why I've never seen anyone recommend it outside of Instinctos.

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I would not eat it regularly, because it is rich in anthraquinones, which are carcinogenic and otherwise detrimental.
Yes, anthraquinones is apparently the specific type of quinones in cassia fistula, if I understand what I read on it. I thought about using that term, but didn't want to possibly complicate things by using a different term than Alphagruis used. I didn't know that a carcinogenic link had already been found. Do you have any sources you can refer me to, as I couldn't find any on long-term side effects of cassia fistula consumption?

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Fruits like papaya are very easily digestible and contain almost no acid.
Yeah, and papaya seem low in sugar and I seem to handle them better than most fruit. One problem is they are one of the few fruits that taste bad to me. However, if it works for me like a laxative, then I would eat it. It hasn't in the past, but maybe I didn't eat enough. It's worth another try.

All citrus is off my list except as a limited flavoring. Ideally, any fruit I eat should:

- not give me significant negative symptoms (not spike my BG, not digest poorly, not produce white scum on my teeth, not give me acne breakouts and dry skin, etc.)
- be grown locally and be fresh and organic
- taste good to me
- preferably be an old species, particularly wild, that hasn't been hybridized a lot

Wild Maine blueberries and wild tart local berries are the only fruits that come close to fitting all these bills so far, and even with these I have to limit how much I eat at a time (though eating them with fat seems to increase by a little bit how much I can handle--despite how others say eating fats with fruits makes things worse for them). I seem to handle black and red grapes OK too, but I think it's mainly because I limit them to a handful or so, and they don't fit as many of the above ideal characteristics.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 27, 2010, 11:06:10 am
The more I think about papaya, the more it makes sense to me to try it again. The fact that it tastes mediocre to me will keep me from binging on it, the low sugar aspect should minimize side effects and the high fiber may help my bowels, with luck. I'll try to remember to buy some next time I'm at the market. Thanks for the suggestion, Hanna. Are there any temperate fruits that act like a laxative and aren't sugary and low in antinutrients? I'd like to buy fresh local if I can.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on August 28, 2010, 05:28:21 am
but I certainly don't seem to handle fruits well. For me, despite being a fruit lover and hoping they would work for me, fruits do generally seem to have the effect of tree candy, and if that pisses off some of my fellow fruit lovers, too bad.

When I was a vegetarian, I loved fruits and vegetables. Now they mean nothing to me. You get over it. At least, looking at my body in the mirror now, I don't miss low calorie, high fiber, low nutrition foods.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 29, 2010, 04:29:15 am
Thanks for the info from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-anthraquinone.htm, Hanna. I was already seeking alternatives to senna, as I knew it was a legume and that it contains toxic anthraquinone, and this adds further impetus to my search (as for cassia fistula, other folks are of course free to eat it if they wish, but like all legumes I'm skeptical of it and I don't even recall seeing this fruit for sale anywhere, so it is rather irrelevant to me). I was also aware that when the body rapidly expels something that has been ingested that there is often a good reason for this and the body may be telling us that this is not something we should eat regularly. While senna may be OK to use acutely on occasion, I would rather not use it semi-regularly.

Based on what you're telling me Hanna, it looks like anthraquinone may be more toxic than I realized. It's rather startling that it has been banned in Germany. This reminds me of a Px laxative that I was assured by my American gastroenterologist was safe to use daily, then I developed a chronic mineral deficiency and researched it and found that it had been banned in Europe unless electrolyte minerals were added (which American pharmaceutical companies insisted was unnecessary). I've also noticed that Europe seemed to develop some awareness of the dangers of gluten before the USA. So I take European bans seriously and don't just dismiss them as overcautiousness, as some Americans seem to.

Thanks also to Alphagruis for your links. This is an interesting quote from the first one: "every species of plant analyzed contains its own set of perhaps a few dozen toxins". Of course, some people prefer to call them phytonutrients and claim that they are cure-alls. The debate over which plants are safe to eat, in what quantities, at what stages in their development, with what processing, how much we have adapted to various natural pesticides/phytonutrients, etc. will likely rage on long after I'm dead and gone.

So I certainly agree that we have to be careful and cassia for instance should certainly not be ingested routinely, whether "instinctively" or not (as instinctos often do to get rid of their more or less systematic fruit or avocado overeating.)
Correct. Senna and high-dose Mg work semi-OK for me as acute remedies, and they are the most effective acute remedies I've tried so far, but I mainly need a solution for chronic symptoms--preferably one that is natural and low in toxicity, such as food(s) that can be eaten daily or near-daily. Plus, since senna sometimes has some unpleasant effects in me even when used just once and since Mg doesn't tend to work as well as senna unless I increase the dosage to very high levels and risk overdose, I secondarily also look at possible alternative acute treatments (such as my recent failed vitamin C experiment).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 29, 2010, 05:36:03 pm

Thanks also to Alphagruis for your links. This is an interesting quote from the first one: "every species of plant analyzed contains its own set of perhaps a few dozen toxins". Of course, some people prefer to call them phytonutrients and claim that they are cure-alls. The debate over which plants are safe to eat, in what quantities, at what stages in their development, with what processing, how much we have adapted to various natural pesticides/phytonutrients, etc. will likely rage on long after I'm dead and gone.


It's fairly clear that upon eating plants, and even to a lesser extent food of animal origin since animals must ultimately feed on plants and are susceptible to and actually do store plant toxins in their organisms, there is always a trade off. On the one hand vital nutrients are obtained but on the other hand more or less toxic molecules are ingested too. Depending on a huge number of things the overall result is either beneficial or detrimental. In particular this is actually the basis of equilibrium in natural ecosystems since it limits predation, predator populations and thus plant and in turn subsequent animal irreversible extinction.

So it is clearly impossible to ingest food without any "toxins". Depending on plant and animal species and their present condition such as stress, animal health and ability to detox etc etc more or less plant matter can be ingested and taken advantage of.
This should also be clearly realised and then kept in mind by some "raw food ayatollahs" when one considers the detrimental effects of the toxins generated by cooking. The same basic truth holds in this case too even if cooking increases unnecessarily and in some form tremendously the amount of toxins in food.  One cannot seriously, as the instincto guru in his recent post in this thread, on the one hand claim that natural chemicals proven to be toxic when ingested in pure form become miraculously harmless when ingested in a given whole natural food and on the other hand argue on exactly the same analytic and reductionnist level that heat generated molecules proven to be toxic when ingested in pure form such as AGEs or nitrosamines make cooked food so toxic as to definitely discard them from diet.

 It is at odds with the facts and thus ridiculous to simply demonize cooked food on the one hand and idolize raw food on the other hand because the former would be definitely "toxic" whereas raw food would be definitely devoid of "toxicity". Cooked food is just usually more "toxic" than raw food.    

So in your case, PaleoPhil I would not definitively discard plant foods such as cassia or senna . I agree with you that the laxative properties are most likely a clear sign of the presence of toxic molecules but the overall result of its intake may be nevertheless temporarily very beneficial if it permits to get rid of many other toxins retained or permanently developed in colon due to constipation. I suggest you experiment with it cautiously.    
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 29, 2010, 05:56:50 pm
Is it true that Ames found or claimed citric acid to be cancerogenic? Gcb, was this a write error?

I remember instinctive eater´s recommendation to force the cassia intake and to eat as much cassia as possible (i. e. up to the instinctive stop), even if one does not really like the cassia. So this is (or was) not originally your recommendation, gcb?


Alpha, these two articles seem to be very exciting - thanks!

You're wellcome Hanna.

BTW, thanks too for your remarks, excellent as usual.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 29, 2010, 09:58:16 pm
...So it is clearly impossible to ingest food without any "toxins".
Sure, but there are clearly also significant differences in levels of toxins and in human's evolved enzyme ability to break down the toxins. If we didn't believe that we wouldn't bother to eat Paleo and avoid the more toxic foods like grains and legumes--instead we would basically just eat whatever we liked the taste of.

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Depending on plant and animal species and their present condition such as stress, animal health and ability to detox etc etc more or less plant matter can be ingested and taken advantage of.
Yes, and I think genetics and epigenetics play a role also. My whole clan on both sides of the family seem particularly susceptible to the diseases of civilization from eating SAD or vegetarian diets and multiple physical features run in my family's genes that are associated with ancestral hunter peoples.

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This should also be clearly realised and then kept in mind by some "raw food ayatollahs" ....
I know your position on "natural nutrition", Alphagruis, and some of your criticisms of it do appear plausible, but I'd rather not have a lengthy debate between you and GCB dominate my thread, if you don't mind.

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So in your case, PaleoPhil I would not definitively discard plant foods such as cassia or senna . I agree with you that the laxative properties are most likely a clear sign of the presence of toxic molecules but the overall result of its intake may be nevertheless temporarily very beneficial
Yes, temporarily. Like I said, I'm using senna but probably too much if anything. I'd like to reduce my use to occasional temporary use. Even if it weren't toxic, it seems with me that the effectiveness decreases the longer it's used.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 30, 2010, 12:46:06 am

I know your position on "natural nutrition", Alphagruis, and some of your criticisms of it do appear plausible, but I'd rather not have a lengthy debate between you and GCB dominate my thread, if you don't mind.


No problem PaleoPhil. There won't be any debate between GCB and me, neither here nor elsewhere.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Cinna on August 30, 2010, 11:20:55 am
LOL, I'd like to blame it on all the talk about sweet, juicy fruits at this forum, but I know it's up to me to try to block that out and resist. There's less temptation at the Dirty Carnivore forum and they're a better influence on me, but there's still some more I'd like to learn here too about the raw and Paleo aspects of my diet.

We love that you're here - please stay as long as possible. :)

It took me years to get over the social embarrassment of talking about it and I finally started asking about it when I tried various things and nothing worked and I was getting fed up with it. There seems to be this widespread feeling that most people who have chronic constipation don't really, so that people like me who really do have it have to answer all sorts of questions. The Bristol stool scale is a big help, because it's a single standard that nearly everyone can agree on and easily understand. Unfortunately, it means looking at images of poop, but it's the best way I've found to explain it.

I first heard about the Bristol Stool Scale here, in your journal. It actually makes me so happy that something like this exists - that people took the time to create this scale. ;D  I emailed the link to my sis straight away because I felt that she too should know about the Scale's existence. I appreciate when people talk about poop because it's something that everybody (more or less) does, it's something we all have in common, and it's interesting. :)  Thanks so much for your candidness and thorough reporting/posting.

I hope you're feeling all better from your ascorbic experience. I actually adore papaya, but I don't really buy/eat it here in the states because it's all GMO (unless organic). My sis hates papaya, but I wonder if it's a taste that can be acquired... I wish you the best though. (I'm sure starchy, cooked winter squashes are out of the question, nevermind out of season... might work for some other people.)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 30, 2010, 06:42:50 pm
Sure, but there are clearly also significant differences in levels of toxins and in human's evolved enzyme ability to break down the toxins. If we didn't believe that we wouldn't bother to eat Paleo and avoid the more toxic foods like grains and legumes--instead we would basically just eat whatever we liked the taste of.

I agree of course. It's certainly ever been the struggle of animals to avoid as much as possible the detrimental effects of plant poisons and adapt to ever evolving plant defenses. Different strategies have been, from an evolutionnary point of view, involved in this respect ranging from developing new means of detoxification at molecular level to merely adopting carnivorism or in "big brain" humans selecting their foods according to some scientific knowledge such as in our RP diet. Raw Paleo is certainly one way to drastically limit toxins intake and another one is obviously merely to eat the minimal quantity of food necessary as in Caloric Restriction. Or even better do both things simultaneously and actually one approach entails sometimes the other too as in my case.

My point was just to warn against idyllic dogmatic views and relevant demonizations such as "plants are bad and meat is good" or "plant X is bad and plant Y is good" or even "cooked is bad or raw is good".
 
For instance, systematically overeating raw stuff such as dried fruits or nuts or even raw animal fats or muscles, because of various ideologies, might well not be much better and most likely be even worse than eating some cooked stuff in ones meals in limited amounts on average as our paleo HGs ancestors did.          

Yes, and I think genetics and epigenetics play a role also. My whole clan on both sides of the family seem particularly susceptible to the diseases of civilization from eating SAD or vegetarian diets and multiple physical features run in my family's genes that are associated with ancestral hunter peoples.

There is indeed a genetic variability but to which extent is your present strong intolerance of fruit or plant foods to trace back to this and is there so strong a determinism?  You suffer probably from some damage that is at least partly reversible. Epigenetic changes are.  
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 31, 2010, 01:56:47 am
Thanks Cinna. :)

....My point was just to warn against idyllic dogmatic views and relevant demonizations such as "plants are bad and meat is good" or "plant X is bad and plant Y is good" or even "cooked is bad or raw is good".
 
For instance, systematically overeating raw stuff such as dried fruits or nuts or even raw animal fats or muscles, because of various ideologies, might well not be much better and most likely be even worse than eating some cooked stuff in ones meals in limited amounts on average as our paleo HGs ancestors did.
It depends on what you mean by Paleo and there's where much of the disagreement lies. Before humans started cooking they and their hominoid ancestors survived for millions of years on all raw foods. So one thing that is debated is did humans adapt to cooked foods and if so how much? Plus, were the adaptations beneficial, as Wrangham suggests, or were they merely degenerations of the sort Weston Price talked about? I believe humans did adapt/change from gradually increased cooking but so far the evidence suggests to me that most of the adaption/change was degenerative (ex: smaller, weaker jaws, finer bones, etc.), though it's hard to know what changes occurred due to increased cooking and what resulted from changes in the foods consumed. Wrangham's main point seems to be brain size increase, but most scientists disagree with cooking as the cause. The majority of scientific opinion currently tilts toward increased raw animal fat consumption.

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There is indeed a genetic variability but to which extent is your present strong intolerance of fruit or plant foods to trace back to this and is there so strong a determinism?  You suffer probably from some damage that is at least partly reversible. Epigenetic changes are.  

I think genetics, epigenetics and damage from SAD are likely all factors and I'm hoping that more healing will come.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on August 31, 2010, 03:27:35 am

Phil, I'm thinking of opening a thread about cassia fistula, if you would like any above post on that subject to be moved there, we can do it. Just let me know which ones.

Thanks
Francois
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 31, 2010, 09:43:33 am
These are the hairloss treatments in Danny Roddy's interesting ebook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq4SyCVwQnE) I bought that I could do more with and by coincidence recently have been trying to incorporate more into my regimen:

Pemmican
Carb load with tubers like potatoes, yams, & sweet potatoes, during the weekends
Strive for 8+ hours of uninterrupted sleep
Sunlight

Due to my past positive antibody tests for beef, being reminded by one of KGH's blog posts (and also Danny Roddy's blogging about it) that beef contains bovine serum albumin, I've been considering making pemmican again--possibly made using low-dried jerky plus raw marrow fat--but it's time consuming and I haven't gotten around to it, so instead I've been eating more of other meats and fish besides beef.

I've been searching for a raw Paleo alternative to cooked tubers, but haven't found anything I do well on that provides enough carbs to make a difference. I don't tend to handle fruits well, though I have been eating small amounts of certain fruits now and then. I eat potatoes and sweet potatoes at restaurants and at my parents' house.

The modern world makes getting enough sleep and sunlight difficult, but I'm trying to get more.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 31, 2010, 11:53:01 am
There were not papayas in my local market, but there were plums, which may even be a better alternative.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on August 31, 2010, 05:35:51 pm
In agreement with PaleoPhil, the posts concerning cassia fistula have been moved here. (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/cassia-fistula-why-when-how-much/)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alphagruis on August 31, 2010, 06:18:41 pm

It depends on what you mean by Paleo and there's where much of the disagreement lies. Before humans started cooking they and their hominoid ancestors survived for millions of years on all raw foods. So one thing that is debated is did humans adapt to cooked foods and if so how much? Plus, were the adaptations beneficial, as Wrangham suggests, or were they merely degenerations of the sort Weston Price talked about? I believe humans did adapt/change from gradually increased cooking but so far the evidence suggests to me that most of the adaption/change was degenerative (ex: smaller, weaker jaws, finer bones, etc.), though it's hard to know what changes occurred due to increased cooking and what resulted from changes in the foods consumed. Wrangham's main point seems to be brain size increase, but most scientists disagree with cooking as the cause. The majority of scientific opinion currently tilts toward increased raw animal fat consumption.


My point was that HG's from upper paleolithic were most likely usually in much better shape than modern RP dieters in spite of there being a fraction of cooked stuff in their diet and this makes sense according to my previous comments but not in dogmatic oversimplified RP (or a fortiori instincto) paradigms.

This does of course not at all mean that cooking was not already an additional toxic stress (but apparently not enough to impair seriously HG's health) or a fortiori that Wrangham is even remotely right. One may speculate in an endless manner about the influence of cooking on human evolution because archeologic data are much too scarce to get even the slightest chance to hit the target. My present guess is that cooking is the consequence rather than the cause of brain development that took place earlier in evolution.    
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 03, 2010, 11:45:49 am
I ate a teaspoon of high meat chunks and gravy today and was expecting the usual zero result, but this time a few seconds after I swallowed it, I felt a good, relaxing feeling pass through the muscles of my upper back and back of my neck and a couple minutes later I could feel a cool, good feeling in my esophagus and stomach. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I'm noting it in case it does.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 05, 2010, 08:28:05 am
One of the most important principles I've found in lifestyle changes like yoga, meditation, exercise, natural posture, barefoot-style walking, squatting, etc., is to try to incorporate them into daily life (just like a hunter-gatherer naturally does) rather than treat them as "exceptions" that you do 15 - 60 minutes or so a day and then go back to your normal bad habits the rest of the time. I know that it's easier said than done in today's modern world, but I have found it worthwhile to incorporate these sorts of natural elements into my lifestyle as much as possible.

I have done things like give away my TV years ago and spend more time in face-to-face socializing with people. I try to incorporate things into my daily routine like breathing semi-yogically lots of the time, walking as close to barefoot all the time, walking instead of driving, treating every annoying pause (such as a hung computer) as an opportunity for a brief meditation (see Eckhart Tolle, the the Benson-Henry Institute for Mind Body Medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital and other sources on this), taking yoga and Thera-band exercise breaks at work if I start to get stiff from sitting, talking less and listening and paying attention more, taking nature walks to quiet spots where I can relax and meditate, and so on. I also use some modern techniques like writing down things to do and issues to deal with in task lists and a journal, so my mind lets go of them and I get good quality sleep.

What made me think about this consciously and post about it is a study I just read about. Unfortunately, it requires paid access, so I couldn't read the full article, but here's an intro to it:

Quote
Fibromyalgia: Increased regular physical activity as 'exercise' in fibromyalgia
S. E. Gowans
p499 | doi:10.1038/nrrheum.2010.135
http://www.nature.com/nrrheum/journal/v6/n9/full/nrrheum.2010.135.html

Although the benefits of exercise for individuals with fibromyalgia are well known, it can be difficult for individuals to begin or maintain an exercise regimen. A recent trial examined whether defining “exercise” as increases in regular home-based physical activities might improve exercise compliance.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Stephanie07 on September 09, 2010, 09:18:09 am
Water is really important for us well our body needs water badly in order to function right and wash away the toxins inside our body.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 09, 2010, 09:45:56 am
Yes, I've been working on increasing my water intake--despite the warnings of the Fiber Menace guy against it (heh heh). I trust the Inuit more than I do the Fiber Menace dude, though FM does crack me up and has some good points.

Another Inuit-style strategy I've been trying is buying and eating a wider variety of fats to try to increase my intake and maybe help the bowels, and because plant food experiments have gone badly. I added krill oil to my suet, cod liver oil, fish oil and occasional EVOO and I'm eating more marrow and lard (I don't like the taste of raw pork fat, though I may experiment with spicing it). I'm eating enough now that I'm getting some mild sweetness in my saliva again, suggesting high ketone levels. With all the omega 3s I'm getting, I'm putting the claims of the fish oil critics through quite a test. So far only benefits and no negative side effects like bloody noses.

Overall I feel improved since increasing fat, water and salt--with the biggest increase (and most benefits) being in the fat (which in turn then increased my thirst and desire for water and my enjoyment of it--it's back to being my favorite-tasting beverage). I have a bit better sense of well being (which was already rather good), more alert and focused, no yawning at all, even better tolerance to both heat and cold than usual, less muscle tension from office work, better exercise tolerance; too early to tell much else. Fats definitely seem to be my most beneficial macronutrient, even though I still don't digest them 100% efficiently. Once again the Arctic /Inuit /Yupik /Namgis/ Chukchi /Ket (Deng) /Evenk /Sami/ Lex Rooker /Katelyn-style mostly-raw diet seems to work best for me. Hope Katelyn gets a chance to read this, as I know she'd get a kick out of it. :)

One downside to the lemon flavored fish oil is that the critic acid is apparently giving me mild reflux, whereas the mint CLO does not. No more citrus-flavored fish oil for me after I finish what I have.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on September 15, 2010, 07:14:18 am
Yay, you finally got back on track. Why waste time on fruit? Most people you need to socialize with won't care if you eat at all, and they are probably completely uneducated about nutrition. I eat raw meat in front of others all the time. They don't have 15% BF and the rest LBM. Their opinions are useless to me on nutrition. I will discuss any other topic but nutrition with the ignorant. Stop worrying about your weight. You are meant to be lean-embrace it!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 15, 2010, 08:04:05 am
Ha ha, I knew you'd celebrate, KLC. I'm not worrying about it so much as desiring improvements and enjoying experimenting (and I probably wouldn't be experimenting if I didn't still have some health issues) and would be pleased if I set a better example for my friends and loved ones (many folks are impressed by a slender gal like you, but not a skinny guy) so that more would join the bandwagon (some of them are sadly deteriorating). Plus, I think my skinnyness is more than just cosmetic. I think it may indicate that my gut flora, intestinal lining and immune system may not be fully healed yet. And it would make me a more credible author if I ever write a book on this stuff. I know I'll always be thin if I eat this way, but I think my natural weight is probably another 15 lbs or so.

If more improvements don't come, so be it, but I haven't given up yet--I'm an eternal optimist (with a healthy dose of skepticism thrown in ;) ). Besides, with each health/appearance breakthrough I make I learn something new and like the famous physicist Richard Feynman I love to learn things. The way Lex likes to work on clocks I like to learn new stuff and make connections and predictions (like I predict that my posture will improve further--how much, I don't know). One neat example is the way my eye color and that of others here has been changing (getting a little green in my case). It may seem like merely cosmetic and not provide any sort of advantage but it a) raises some interesting questions, b) suggests some fascinating insights as well as possible explanations for certain things and c) may suggest that unseen health improvements are occurring.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on September 16, 2010, 08:59:38 am
I put on 4 lbs. of muscle since January. I meet with a trainer ever 8 weeks for a caliper BF analysis. I use it in tandem with my bodyfat scale for bodybuilding. I put on 4lbs. of muscle and 4 inches on my shoulders, without upping fat :). I have a program that is working!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 16, 2010, 10:18:08 am
Congrats!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 24, 2010, 07:12:14 am
Krav Maga taking off in popularity in the USA
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/9025259.stm
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 28, 2010, 06:07:53 am
Reminder to self: never run out of air-dried 100% grassfed suet again. It's amazing how much better I feel now that I'm eating that again after trying to get by on lard, coconut butter, marrow and raw fermented CLO for a while after I ran out of suet. Suet seems to be my single biggest health booster. It could be coincidence, but I doubt it. Will correct my report if it turns out otherwise.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 19, 2010, 10:31:35 am
I bought some pastured marrow from the Healthy Living health food market, but it wasn't 100% grassfed and was the dry kind from narrow bones, so it was only a little better than the supermarket stuff. I rendered it to make it more palatable and re-discovered why I stopped rendering my fats: home-made rendered marrow and suet give me stomach gas when I do this. Strangely, the rendered lard from the market only gives me a tiny bit of gas. Raw marrow and suet don't give me any noticeable gas other than the occasional burp.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 24, 2010, 10:23:29 am
All the promotion of fruits lately triggered my cravings for them again, so I ate some from the company cafeteria. I thought I did well, though, by limiting myself to about 8 red grapes, a couple chunks of pineapple and about a tbsp of shredded coconut, with olive oil. Surprisingly, I had a relatively strong reaction to this small bit of fruit. My lower lip became rather chapped, which is a common reaction I get to carbs, my bladder and flanks became mildly painful, my teeth became crudded up, I slept with my mouth open (which only happens when I eat carbs) and my mouth developed a nasty taste with a yucky coating. I wonder if the couple chunks of pineapple, which I don't normally eat at all, could account for my stronger-than-usual reaction?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: MoonStalkeR on October 24, 2010, 10:44:17 am
Maybe the strong acidity of the pineapple contributed to this?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on October 24, 2010, 08:45:05 pm
Hey Phil have you ever tried eating just {fruits}(mainly), {nuts, comb honey, bonemarrow}(Lesser) and then occasionally a smallish amount of fatty meat when you feel like it?

I do best on Meat/fat only, but also well when I eat like I said above. However I don't do well if I eat meat/fat mainly, and then add in some fruit/honey. If you want to enjoy fruit maybe it would help eating like I said above now and again? I don't know.

Meat(Mostly - by mass)/fat(Lesser - by mass)=Hunter; the other one would be Scavenger & Forager.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 25, 2010, 12:35:54 am
Maybe the strong acidity of the pineapple contributed to this?
That is why I normally avoid pineapple, but I didn't think that two small chunks could have such a significant effect.

Hey Phil have you ever tried eating just {fruits}(mainly), {nuts, comb honey, bonemarrow}(Lesser) and then occasionally a smallish amount of fatty meat when you feel like it?
Yes, I've tried nearly every possible combination and ratio after years of experimentation. I even recently tried a near-fruitarian diet that included a small amount of nuts and fatty fish after some wacko troll who was banned from this forum challenged me to do so and I reported my negative results in this forum. I was curious to see if my ability to handle fruits had improved at all since going raw, but it unfortunately did not. I find that every increase in fruits causes an increase in negative symptoms. Eating plentiful raw fat with raw fruit reduces the symptoms, but doesn't eliminate them.

Quote
I do best on Meat/fat only, but also well when I eat like I said above. However I don't do well if I eat meat/fat mainly, and then add in some fruit/honey. If you want to enjoy fruit maybe it would help eating like I said above now and again? I don't know.
As I have reported before, I find that when I eat sequentially and avoid combining, I actual handle fruit worse, not better. That's one reason why I don't pay much attention to the Natural Hygiene advice to avoid combining. When I eat berries or coconut oil I find I digest it better in the style of Yupik Eskimo akutaq--fat mixed with berries, meat or herbs--rather than sequentially. So in this case for me the Yupik way works better than the Natural Hygiene way. I know of no traditional culture that follows rules of sequential eating or mono eating, do you? When it comes to what works for me, I put more credence in my own experience and the thousands of years of experience of traditional cultures than I do the high theory of Natural Hygiene gurus.

If you believe that fats and carbs should not be eaten together, does that mean you don't believe one should eat grubcomb with honeycomb or eat fruits that contain plentiful fats as well as sugars, like coconut (or at least not consume the carby coconut water at the same time as the fatty coconut meat)? When hunter-gatherers or Stone agers were successful in hunting meat and gathering fruit on the same day, do you think they set aside one or the other to avoid combining? If not, do you think they suffered serious ill effects as a result?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on October 25, 2010, 08:19:21 pm
I'm fine combining fats with carbs, and fats with protein, but not so great combining carbs with substantial protein. So no, I don't believe any of those things, as none of them contain much protein.

Fruits+Nuts+Honey+Bone Marrow I'm fine with; Meat with fat I'm better with; but meat with fruit/honey I'm not good with.

Hmm if a human group has abundant fruits and can even find bones with marrow and even scraps of meat, do you think they will bother to hunt? I don't. Like Hanna's fish-eating wolves, I think they'd go for the easier option whilst it's available.

I'm not talking well-developed groups of humans who have been without change/challenge for centuries, and have their traps set up around the island and know everything so well that a hunt takes no thought or effort. Who have fat bellies and smoke, and strange rituals and traditions.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 26, 2010, 05:05:11 am
I'm fine combining fats with carbs, and fats with protein, but not so great combining carbs with substantial protein. So no, I don't believe any of those things, as none of them contain much protein.
You're not required to believe anything. I know for myself that I experience no additional problems when I eat lean meat protein (like eye of round or top round) with fruit than when I eat fruit alone. I actually seem to do a slight bit better, though fat helps more and neither completely eliminates my problems with fruit, unfortunatetly. Eating fruit alone works worst of all for me.

Quote
Hmm if a human group has abundant fruits and can even find bones with marrow and even scraps of meat, do you think they will bother to hunt? I don't.
Apparently you weren't swayed at all by the real-life HG story I shared where they went hunting immediately after they acquired a large amount of honeycomb/grubcomb and gorged on some of it. Can you name a single HG or pastoralist people that follows SE rules? I'm not convinced that my HG ancestors would have followed Natural Hygiene SE rules that weren't even developed until the 1800s, and there's no evidence that any traditional culture does SE/Natural Hygiene even today. More importantly, SE makes things worse for me, rather than better. Like Lex, I notice no benefit from SE. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: MoonStalkeR on October 26, 2010, 05:55:56 am
Eating fruit with other food such as raw meat can reduce irritation for me too, but not with cooked starch, I get a sudden stomach pain if I do.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 13, 2010, 04:59:42 am
For some reason animal fats don't seem to be warming me as much so far this winter as compared to last. Danny Roddy found that cooked tubers made him warmer and by coincidence I've been experimenting with cooked tubers like potatoes and sweet potatoes for other reasons (such as potential help with constipation or bulking up as well as maybe helping reduce the risk of UTIs and kidney stones by reducing protein intake), but I haven't noticed any warming from tubers.

On the other hand, while tubers and other carbs haven't made me any warmer, I'm not noticing as much yawning from them as I used to. Some, yes, but not as much.

I haven't been doing a good job on keeping my water intake up. It's not easy. This is one reason I'd like to be able to eat more omnivorously if I can, to keep my risk of dehydration, super-low urinary pH, UTI's and kidney stones down.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 01, 2011, 09:35:32 am
Speaking of UTI's, I got one recently for the first time since I stopped eating a SAD diet. It started on the day after I ate more carbs than usual, but that could have been coincidence, though I did used to get them when I was eating the most carbs of my life. The symptoms were at their worst for a couple days, though not as bad as the UTI's in years past. Some symptoms lingered on, so I tried 1 tsp baking soda with water before bed on 2 consecutive nights and that did the trick better than antibiotics used to work for me years ago.

The success of the baking soda does make me wonder if there's anything to the acid/alkaline hypothesis after all.

Happy new year everyone!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 10, 2011, 12:08:27 pm
The past few days I've been eating much more raw honey than usual, intrigued by the mass-building effects others reported. Unfortunately, I have felt increasing anxiety, my teeth increasingly coated in stuff despite much more brushing than usual, I wake up with my mouth open and dry and with a crappy taste in my mouth, and the cyst on my neck is becoming painful.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 13, 2011, 09:22:20 am
A couple days ago I started experimenting with a softened version of my mostly raw Paleo diet (which was already relatively soft to begin with, but had room for further softening), to see if that would help with my lifelong chronic constipation, poor digestion and underweight. The early returns are promising, but that's no guarantee of longer-term results, so I'll see how it goes for at least a little longer before reporting on it.

I've also continued with my experiments on determining which plant foods I can add to my diet without too much in the way of undesirable side effects. Parsnips are still working out surprisingly well for me and it looks like I can minimize the minor stomach gas from avocado if I mash it and mix it with some raw honey. I certainly handle avocado better than coconut oil. It would be nice if I can add avocado to my staples, as it is both soft and fatty. I suspect that soft, fatty foods will be key to resolving the constipation issue. I'll have to try to balance that goal with the somewhat conflicting goal of minimizing dry skin, chapped lips, foot cramps, dental plaque, etc. (which I tend to get when consuming too much honey and plant carbs).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 14, 2011, 11:43:42 am
Even eating just 1 tbsp of raw honey with 2 avocadoes my chapped lips worsened. They never chap when I eat ZC and almost never chap when I eat no honey and just a small amount of berries once or twice a week. This stinks because honey makes the avocado palatable.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on January 14, 2011, 04:46:00 pm
I can minimize the minor stomach gas from avocado if I mash it and mix it with some raw honey.

Even eating just 1 tbsp of raw honey with 2 avocadoes my chapped lips worsened. They never chap when I eat ZC and almost never chap when I eat no honey and just a small amount of berries once or twice a week. This stinks because honey makes the avocado palatable.

Perhaps you shouldn’t eat avocados if it’s not palatable for you without mixing it with honey. And reciprocally, one certainly shouldn’t eat honey if it’s not palatable without mixing it with something else.

Cheers
François
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 16, 2011, 04:00:50 am
So do you have any foods to suggest beyond cassia fistula?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on January 16, 2011, 04:30:18 am
You mean a food that would be helpful in case of constipation? Some people say figs, prunes and tamarind, for example.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: riy freeman on January 16, 2011, 08:40:23 am
magnesium
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on January 18, 2011, 07:44:36 am
raw food.com has cassia sticks, of great quality.  Open and suck on two disks in the morning on empty stomach.  wait an hour before eating.  They work.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 24, 2011, 10:40:40 am

After increased experimentation with eating carb-rich non-meat foods like raw honey, fruits and underground storage organs (including experimenting a few times with cooked tubers), I experienced a urinary tract infection. I used to get UTIs chronically in the days when I was eating a carb-rich diet, so that made me wonder if increased carb intake might somehow inflame my urinary tract or feed the bacteria that cause the UTIs. Luckily it resolved fairly quickly with the help of 1/2 tsp baking soda mixed in a cup of water taken two nights in a row.

Another possibly related symptom I developed was a new dental cavity. I recently went to the dentist and he reported that I developed a new cavity since the last visit 4 months earlier that would need a filling. Things I had changed that might possibly account for it included the increase in non-meat carbs and using toothpaste and mouthwash that did not contain fluoride (which was accidental on my part--I thought one of them did contain fluoride).

I read in this forum about people bulking up and even claiming dental benefits from eating raw honey, including up to a pound a day of raw honey, and following their taste/senses/instincts. Perhaps it was wishful thinking, but I thought that maybe honey was not a culprit in my dental issues and UTI and thought that the occasional random carb binge might provide health benefits in the way that intermittent fasting and fractal exercise have benefited some folks. I fell prey to temptation and increased my honey intake on some days, letting taste and satisfaction be my guide instead of experience and wisdom. I found I could eat up to 1/3 lb of raw honey on its own in a single sitting without any "stop" signal, and at that level of intake started to experience some mild stomach upset, nausea, and feeling of lightheadedness, which I get when my bloodsugar skyrockets, though still desiring more honey and not getting any "stop". I tested and sure enough my BG had exceeded 200 mg/dl. On the bright side, being able to handle 1/3 lb of raw honey was an improvement over the past when more than a couple tbsps of raw honey could start to give me nausea.

After a few days of eating plentiful raw honey of around 1/5 to 1/4 lb per day and experiencing more and more negative symptoms, I cut down further on the honey intake to around 1-2 tbsps/day. The negative symptoms remained amazingly stubborn and my dental health worsened despite the cutback as long as I continued eating raw honey and fruits.

Then suddenly I experienced a hemorrhoid flareup. That was the last straw, I decided I had to make a major change and ignore the advice of the fruit fans and Instinctos and focus on dealing with the decades of constipation that was now more of a problem with a sensitive hemorrhoid instead of relying solely on my senses and the advice to eat lots of raw honey.

Also, with increased honey and fruit intake my lips had become increasingly dry and then painfully cracked and I was again developing dead skin inside my cheeks like in the past when eating plentiful carbs. Amazingly, just eating some avocado with a handful of chopped strawberries caused my lips to further painfully crack not long after eating it. So I switched over to eating pastured marrow with pastured ground turkey, hoping it might help reverse the damage by the next morning. Within an hour of eating plenty of pastured marrow and raw pastured ground turkey my lips had already healed significantly. If I didn't experience it myself I wouldn't have believed it were possible.

Unfortunately, partly under the influence of pro-fruit and pro-honey posts in this forum I think I may have endured unnecessary suffering and possibly done permanent damage to my teeth and posterior. I take full responsibility for it, but I hope my journal will serve as a warning to others to not view raw fruit and raw honey as without risks. Everyone does not respond to them in the same way, for whatever reasons.

In trying to rememdy constipation I had indeed been trying some of the therapies mentioned above. I tried figs, prunes and prune juice with no noticeable results from any of these. Magnesium helped a tiny bit, but nowhere near enough. To get good effects from Mg I had to risk side effects from overdose, so that wasn't something I wanted to do on a regular basis.

Senna helped to get the stools out, but the stools themselves were still visibly suboptimal (per the Brisol scale and other symptoms--I'll spare people the details), so it seemed more of a forcing of the GI muscles than an improvement in the stool itself, and at times it could make going to the bathroom a harsh, unpleasant experience. I find senna tea less harsh than senna tablets, but still a bit harsh and it stops working as soon as I stop taking it. Plus, senna and cassia fistula are legumes that contain lectins and other antinutrients that I'm not sure I want to consume on a regular basis (cassia fistula contains at least 3 lectins--CSL-1, CSL-2 and CSL-3--see http://proj3.sinica.edu.tw/~chem/servxx6/files/paper_8007_1269165892.pdf). Because they're lectin-containing legumes they don't even qualify as "Paleo" under Cordain's definition, though they might under Ray Audette's definition of "edible raw" (he claims that legumes are not edible raw, but if he knew that cassia fistula, tamarind and some other legumes are edible raw he might modify that opinion). I think they are probably fine as short-term therapeutics, but I'd rather not be dependent on them and I'd rather address the underlying issue than rely on thereapeutics.

Fiber supplements just gave me foot cramps. Increased water intake hasn't appeared to help noticeably. A large cup of coffee does help to get things moving, but like senna doesn't address the underlying problem, loses effectiveness over time, may have negative long-term side effects and also gives me short-term negative symptoms like stomach gas.

Would anyone care to guess what it is that has helped of late to reduce my constipation (though it's too early to celebrate success and some improvements in the past turned out to be temporary)? Here's a clue: when I had a colonscopy the gastroenterologist discovered that I have an unusually long colon termed a "redundant colon." This got me thinking and contributed to my coming up with my current approach.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on January 24, 2011, 11:11:50 am
sorry to hear about your negative side effects, but looking back at your journal you get burned every single time when you turn to carb binges.  i remember you saying you feel the best with meat and suet. but i'm getting a feeling you'll do another carb experiment.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 24, 2011, 11:44:41 am
Thanks and yeah, raw honey and fruits are the most addictive and hardest Paleo foods for me to give up. I don't know why some people go on about raw honey and fruits like they are pure magic with no downsides despite multiple people reporting negative effects. The forum is thick with dogma about them. I'm happy for the success of those who thrive on raw honey and fruits, but some act like anyone who reports negative effects from them is crazy or wicked. I read the people reporting all the positive results from raw fruits and honey and claiming that everyone does great on them and anyone who doesn't must be just experiencing a temporary detox or the symptoms are in their head and it feeds my addiction. I'm not making excuses, but I do hope people will keep this in mind before their next praising of the magical benefits and zero downsides of raw fruits and honey. To some here it seems to go against some sort of holy writ to report anything negative about fruits or honey in this forum. To them I say, so sue me. ;)

On the other hand, carbs do serve a purpose in encouraging me to eat more calories and have another beneficial aspect I'll get into later. I find it very hard to add or even maintain weight and ameliorate constipation when doing ZC or standard VLC. So I'm in a catch-22 situation and trying to find a "third way" that will work better for me, because neither pure unrestricted RPD (including unlimited fruits and honey), nor pure Instincto, nor pure ZC, nor PaleoNu have worked quite satisfactorily me. I tried giving the advice from these approaches more time, but wasn't seeing any progress. For example, Lex said that the constipation resolved on its own for him on his near-ZC diet and he only needed an enema device in the meantime, but that wasn't working for me (and I bought and tried the exact same device).

It's also hard to know how much of my recent symptoms is due to the recent carb experimentation and how much to years of past damage or perhaps poor ability to digest certain animal foods or other unknown factors. Certain of my symptoms are rather clearly carb related, such as the chapped lips, because I've connected them strongly to carbs in the past, with certain others it's less clear so I suppose it could be at least partly coincidence that they arose at the same time as my carb experiments intensified. Or maybe that's wishful thinking on my part, I don't know.

As I hinted, I think I've made something of a breakthrough re: the constipation that I came up with myself that I'll get into, but I'll let folks guess first, if anyone's up to it. Here's another hint--it's similar to raw Primal, but different from that too.

Perhaps you shouldn’t eat avocados if it’s not palatable for you without mixing it with honey. And reciprocally, one certainly shouldn’t eat honey if it’s not palatable without mixing it with something else.  

Cheers
François
Thanks for trying to help, but raw honey is easily very palatable for me without anything added--too much so--and I actually experience slightly less negative symptoms when I mix it with something fatty than on its own, as I've reported before. It shouldn't be surprising because hunter-gatherers eat the fatty grubcomb along with the honeycomb. I've gone back to artificially restricting my raw honey intake, which goes against Instincto but appears to serve my health better. On this my experience backs what KD and KGH have written more than you and GCB, sorry.

I've found avocado to be useful for a certain therapeutic reason and since the only way I've found that I care to eat it so far is to mix it with something sweet, I'll probably continue to do so but probably do it more with berries than honey and try to get by on as little of the sweet as possible. I need to work out whether the benefits I get from a certain aspect of the avocadoes are offset by the negatives of the carbs or not and whether there are better alternatives for me. I'm trying to find a diet where the bulk of it won't contribute to constipation without giving me excessive negative symptoms of other sorts so that I don't need to chronically rely on the therapeutic benefit of the sennosides in senna and cassia fistula and I think I may be on the right track.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on January 24, 2011, 01:08:53 pm
A pretty traditional way to eat avocado is with salt and lemon juice. I like the larger Florida kind these days, although the ones they ship are nothing like the ones I used to get off the tree which were like fatty mangos. They have less of a taste in stores here but are more water rich and should be good for internal transit. A little quality salt probably goes a long way to spice things up. I tend to just eat them plain at the end of the day sometimes with some kind of herb or other vegetables or sauerkraut which is a good compliment and salty of course.

Alot of primal-ish stuff is good for bowel transit: raw butter, egg bombardment, soaked chia seeds, the occasional greens with ACV, even juices counterintuitively can work well for some people in that regard. It seems like fresh fat (dairy fat) helps with dryness both internally and externally than just saturated fats that are frozen. Fruits contain water, but whatever underling process of absorption can actually dry out the cells over time or in the short term. You can see the older fruitarian guys/gals  like Graham, Anne Osborne etc..all dried out and leathery. The standard vegans don't have this problem (or as severely I dunno) despite their animal deficiencies.

I don't know how laissez faire people are about fruits here, so I wouldn't let that pressure lead to too many drawn out experiments. Seems like virtually everyone on this forum gives some consciousness to their sugar consumption, so thinking anyone is actually swayed by those debates is probably just a waste of time I imagine. I ate almost exclusively fruits for years and although I experienced various negatives, these types of symptoms you describe were largely absent untill I started actually starving that internal stuff of its food. That is largely what is going on IMO, which is why massive parts of the population can eat tons of carbs and have these same underlying issues without these symptoms...even if they have all kinds of other health problems that are obviously related. This also explains why health forums are filled with such people because they are already undertaking some form of this process by removing the modern fermenting sugars these things love. For many as Nation pointed out in that thread, the fresh fruits are closer to -or worse than- alcohols and modern processed foods than they are to starches and even grains in terms of these issues. For traditional or ancient peoples, there are also reasons other than just seasonality or unavailability for choosing starches over fruits, heck people are doing this research right now, and its no mystery metabolically.

The irony is people claim that all-fruit can cause deficiencies,..but people can least decades eating only fruits..yet an animal rich diet that is seen as more nutrient dense but minus any plant carbs can cause deficiencies/symptoms in weeks?....something doesn't add up there. I like to think positively generally, but most things I've experienced lead me to believe that your body isn't always all rallied together to do whats best in your interest, and alot of things have their own selfish purposes and will fight for survival through you. Its easy to say that fruit detox or whatever, and while it doesn't seem low-sugar or ZC or any of these approaches necessarily work miracles in short periods, other approaches also can just disguise symptomology which can be discovered by...heck..by removing fruits and seeing how one feels and if there is some disruption/symptoms that way too. I can see the urge to present a balanced diet, but obviously the terrain is not some even playing field for such arbitrary reasoning.


Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nation on January 24, 2011, 01:26:06 pm
PaleoPhil,

how do you do on leafy greens? I've been experimenting with them recently as i also get constipated on RZC and they really help. You could also try liquid chlorophyll which also reduced my constipation. I take 2 teaspoon of chlorophyll a day and eat a little bit of parlsey, onion and spinach or lettuce with meat and constipation is greatly reduced and i don't get candida-like symptoms as i would get if i were eating fruit instead of veggies. Well, i'm probably eating no less than 15 or 20g of carbs a day.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on January 24, 2011, 06:29:10 pm
Sorry to hear that, Phil and I feel a bit guilty. 

Besides, I’m amazed that you still brush your teeth with toothpaste containing fluoride, which is a violent poison and would contribute to tooth fragility (even that it is believed to prevent cavities to some extend) according to what I read decades ago. I cant’ stand any toothpaste and I brush my teeth with seawater only- or plain water in case I have no seawater. Also, didn’t you write that you drank coffee?

Are you absolutely sure the honey you have is 100% correct? It’s very difficult to get really natural honey not heated in one way or another, from bees never feed with refined sugar.

Hope you’ll get better and overcome your health problems anyhow. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on January 24, 2011, 11:10:15 pm
Quote
I find it very hard to add or even maintain weight and ameliorate constipation when doing ZC or standard VLC.

I would do a stool test, preferably several, one for VLC and one for moderate Carbs to see how much and what kind of undigested matter you are passing out.  the results might give you some clues.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on January 25, 2011, 04:26:42 am
For the life of me, Phil  8), I cannot understand your continuing fascination with raw fruit and honey. Ew  >D.

Just eat rare warmed meat. It is easier to digest and you get more calories that way. I stopped Raw ZC (which is why I am not here a lot) to do what I call Paleo ZC. Pure ZC that involves only highly nutritious ZC foods--meat, fish, organs, eggs, but lightly cooked, mostly grassfed. I have been eating TONS of cooked (oh noes) beef, eggs and grassfed butter, eat natural liverwurst and I feel 100% better than I did trying to get in enough food on raw ZC. I still have a little raw once in a while, but I've come to the conclusion that raw is actually nutritionally INFERIOR (oh noes!). We cannot absorb everything in raw because the calories and nutrients are not open to us. It doesn't work for me with my bodybuilding to try to eat raw meat, raw eggs, everything cold, etc.

Just my 2 cents. I wish you were on Facebook because I am writing series of Notes about my ZC journey and my thoughts.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on January 25, 2011, 06:16:21 am
While you are entitled to your opinion, klowcarb, for the benefit of newbies, I should point out that there are certain claims above which have already been thoroughly disproven :-

1) Science has already shown that cooked-meat-protein is less well digested than raw-meat-protein. I quote from beyondveg.com, which is, ironically,  a  fanatical pro-cooked-palaeo website, which mentioned 2 papers debunking the notion that cooking makes meat more digestible:-

"From Oste [1991], heating (above 100°C, or 212°F) decreases meat protein digestibility. "
and
"Seidler [1987] studied the effects of heating on the digestibility of the protein in hake, a type of fish. Fish meat heated for 10 minutes at 130°C (266°F), showed a 1.5% decrease in protein digestibility. Similar heating of hake meat in the presence of potato starch, soy oil, and salt caused a 6% decrease in amino acid content."

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-2a.shtml

There are also many other studies which show that heat-created toxins in cooked foods cause protein to be less well digested. Here's a standard example:-

http://www.ajcn.org/content/83/5/1082.full

(Excerpt from the above link:-
"Conclusions:The consumption of a diet rich in MRPs(ie ""Maillard Reaction Products", types of heat-created toxins) negatively affects protein digestibility. The possible effects of an excessive intake of MRPs during adolescence warrant attention, and long-term effects should be considered."




2) The claim that we cannot absorb the nutrients in raw meats is also wrong. Raw meats contain no antinutrients, such as are found in raw vegetables, so there is no real cause to claim that they are less well absorbed, especially in light of the above studies already mentioned. I recall an earlier thread in which it was pointed out that cooking merely seems more concentrated gram for gram as it removes the water-content, but there is actually no change in calories as regards the whole food, when raw or cooked.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Nation on January 25, 2011, 06:22:34 am
klowcarb, did you lose weight after switching to cooked zc?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on January 25, 2011, 09:23:34 am
Nation--no, in fact, I finally put on 7 lbs. of muscle. Guess what? I get my bodyfat tested every 8 weeks by a professional with calipers (because bodybuilding is my hobby). From January 2010 to my last test, November 2010, I put on 7lbs, 5 inches on my shoulders in particular, decreased my already narrow waist and raised my glutes 2 inches. All while RETAINING 15% bodyfat.

I did this on mostly grassfed ground beef and grassfed dairy. My meat is cooked very little, until just warm and "rare/raw" as I call it. I cook my eggs until the whites start forming and  the yolks are runny--hardly "cooked" in the evil sense. I eat the grassfed butter cold and unheated. I eat liverwurst, gizzards and a little fish (just for some omega 3s; my 6s are very low as I avoid pork and poultry).

So LIGHTLY cooked ZC led to (1) increased muscle mass (2)loss of inches (3) greater energy (4) maintaining body fat (5) increased availability of calories.

Tyler is right that raw meat is highly nutritious and has no anti nutrients. We stand in agreement. But Wrangham showed that it is difficult to get enough calories on raw eating alone, whether high or low carb. If I were trying to lose weight, I would eat ONLY raw as it kept me at 100lbs. and lean but I could NOT grow.


Unlike others, Phil and I are lean ectomorphs who want to BUILD muscle. So a highly nutritious ZC / VLC WOE is perfect, but cooked is so much better for muscle growth. Phil, care to join me?

Tyler, my "cookd" is really just "warming" if you could see it. I still consider it rare/raw and think that below medium is VERY IMPORTANT for health and nutrition :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on January 25, 2011, 09:44:58 am


Tyler is right that raw meat is highly nutritious and has no anti nutrients. We stand in agreement. But Wrangham showed that it is difficult to get enough calories on raw eating alone, whether high or low carb.
  Wrangham openly lied. He pretended that it was physically impossible to survive on a diet of raw meat and get enough daily calories unless one chewed raw meats constantly  for between 5.7 to 6.2 hours a day. This is such an outrageous lie, given multiple RVAFers' experience proving that, actually, one needs to eat less raw foods than cooked foods in order to survive and thrive. What is absolutely disgraceful is that Wrangham quite clearly hadn't even bothered to check raw foodists' experience and just made up an arbitrary figure, as RVAFers don't even need to spend an hour eating raw meats, let alone 5 or 6 hours to get their daily nutritional needs.

The notion re cooked meat building up more muscle-mass I know to be false, as I had, for various reasons, severe muscle-weakness/deterioration on cooked diets(even cooked, low-carb ones) which only got resolved once I switched to a rawpalaeodiet. Plus, it has been mentioned by some in the bodybuilding community that the more the food is cooked, the less absorbable it  is by the body for building up muscle(Schwarzenegger made a point re that once), so, logically, the reverse is also true, that the more raw the meat is the better it is for building up muscle.

The one thing I can agree on is that eating cooked diets cause one to gain weight(in a bad way). I have noticed this:- when I eat cooked foods, especially cooked animal foods, I gain a huge belly very quickly. AV explains this as toxins from cooked foods being stored in the fat-cells.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 25, 2011, 10:05:10 am
KD wrote:
Quote
"Alot of primal-ish stuff is good for bowel transit: raw butter, egg bombardment, ...."
Yes, you've got the gist of what has worked for me re: GI function--soft foods with an emphasis on soft fats and eggs. I didn't handle butter well at last try. It's the right idea, though, because it's a soft fat. Eggs seem to be a winner for me, and marrow, mashed avocado (except for a bit of gas if I eat too much of them on their own, but much less of a stomach issue than with coconut oil), and some foods that aren't raw Paleo--tallow and lard and sometimes cooked sweet potato, though too much of the latter sits in my stomach like a lump, so it's a tertiary food for me and I'm hoping that I find other raw underground storage organs to add to the parsnips I like. I plan to buy a grater to improve the digestibility of the raw USOs, though I haven't noticed stomach or GI problems from small to moderate amounts.
 
I know that rendered fats and cooked tubers are heresy here and I don't get the feeling of wellbeing from them that I get from raw suet and ground beef, but eating soft foods heavy in fat and low in protein and tough insoluble fiber is the only thing so far that has worked fairly consistently on the constipation without having to resort to sennoside-containing foods or coffee, though it's still too soon to tell for sure.
 
Quote
"Fruits contain water, but whatever underling process of absorption can actually dry out the cells over time or in the short term."
Yeah, it's puzzling that plant carbs so quickly dry out my skin regardless of how much water I consume and given that they contain water themselves. I haven't found an explanation of this yet. I can understand how fat moisturizes my skin, because skin is composed partly of fat.
 
Quote
"I don't know how laissez faire people are about fruits here, so I wouldn't let that pressure lead to too many drawn out experiments."
Aye, I don't see it as pressure so much as somewhat of a temptation that I try to manage.
 
Quote
"and alot of things have their own selfish purposes and will fight for survival through you."
I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs. Is that what you mean?
 
Nation wrote:
Quote
"how do you do on leafy greens?"
They seem to be a neutral food for me, thanks. No harm (at least not from the young tasty ones) but no noticeable benefit either. I figure they probably do a small amount of good, such as via vitamin K, that's just too small to notice. And I like the chewiness and different texture that they add to my food.
 
Francois wrote:
Quote
"Sorry to hear that, Phil and I feel a bit guilty."

Ah, it's not your fault. I'm an adult responsible for my own choices, and I hope reporting the bad news as well as the good might provide some insights to others. It seems to have inspired me to find a way to better manage constipation. I know Instincto works for some folks like you and my guess is that the ones it works best for probably have GI tracts and gut flora that are in fairly good shape, plus good insulin sensitivity.
 
Quote
"Are you absolutely sure the honey you have is 100% correct?"
No, I know it's not 100% unheated. As I've stated before, they use a centrifuge. It's the best available in the healthfood and farmers' markets locally and I fare better on it than any other honey sold locally, including the heated Manuka honey. I've ordered and tried 100% unheated honeycomb before, but the difference was so slight it didn't seem to be worth the extra cost. It would be marvelous, though, if I could eat all the unheated honeycomb I want. That would be like a dream come true. :D Maybe I'll try some more of the completely unheated stuff some day.
 
Quote
"Besides, I'm amazed that you still brush your teeth with toothpaste containing fluoride, which is a violent poison and would contribute to tooth fragility...."

I know some folks here feel very strongly negatively about fluoride, but my experience with it has been the opposite. I experienced marvelous reduction in pain from a hole in a tooth with a prescription-strength stannous fluoride (the organic kind of fluoride that's found in bodies of water, the natural effect of which on keeping cavities low in a Texas town was how the cavity-fighting benefits of fluoride were discovered), though it was only when I reduced my carb intake that the pain went away completely. And it was after I accidentally stopped using any fluoride that I developed a cavity for the first time in years.
 
Quote
"with seawater only- or plain water in case I have no seawater."
That doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid.
 
Quote
Also, didn't you write that you drank coffee?
Sometimes, yes, but my intake didn't increase substantially the last several months and if anything the coffee seems to provide a therapeutic benefit similar to that of senna tea. I know the normal instinctive reaction is to search for culprits other than those that challenge our cherished beliefs and desires and I'd like to blame it all on coffee, but I don't get the sense that coffee was the issue for me. I used to drink more coffee in years past than recently.
 
Quote
"Hope you'll get better and overcome your health problems anyhow."
Thanks
 
ys wrote:
Quote
I would do a stool test, preferably several, one for VLC and one for moderate Carbs to see how much and what kind of undigested matter you are passing out.  the results might give you some clues.
Do you have any to recommend?
 
 
For the life of me, Phil  8), I cannot understand your continuing fascination with raw fruit and honey. Ew  >D.
LOL Good to see you post here again Katelyn.

Quote
Just eat rare warmed meat. It is easier to digest and you get more calories that way.
I do eat some crockpot cooked meaty bones occasionally, as well as rendered fat more often now, but lean meat of any sort appears to dehydrate inside me before it gets out the other end, so I've cut down on my intake. Tough, fibrous veggies also seem to be constipating for me.

Quote
It doesn't work for me with my bodybuilding to try to eat raw meat, raw eggs, everything cold, etc.
Yes, that's one reason why I eat some cooked foods, fruits and honey--to keep my weight up.

Quote
Just my 2 cents. I wish you were on Facebook because I am writing series of Notes about my ZC journey and my thoughts.
I'd rather that my forum persona wasn't connected with my real life persona as I say some private things in forums that I'd prefer to keep relatively private. I also like to keep the raw aspect of my diet relatively private and even the Paleo aspect somewhat private.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on January 25, 2011, 10:26:07 am
Quote
ys wrote:
Quote
I would do a stool test, preferably several, one for VLC and one for moderate Carbs to see how much and what kind of undigested matter you are passing out.  the results might give you some clues.
Do you have any to recommend?

i'm sorry i do not, i'm just throwing a wild guess that by looking at the end result might reveal some clues.

if i was concerned about constipation i would start with this
http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/productslabdigestive/1162/

i would weigh in the chance of finding out something that may offer some clues and if money issues are more important.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on January 25, 2011, 10:52:44 am
Quote
Do you have any to recommend?

one place i used to work used this lab a lot.  i think they send you a kit depending on the test you want done, then you send the kit back for analysis.

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/stool.asp

isn't it obvious, though, if we are not digesting something? :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 25, 2011, 11:10:26 am
Yeah :D thanks
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on January 26, 2011, 02:45:39 pm
Hi Klowcarb.  I want to suggest to you that your newly expanded diet may actually be the reason for your muscle gains.  I think I can remember reading (not sure from which forum) where you were so happy with eating, correct me if I am wrong here, just ground beef, and raw.  I think during those days you were completely satisfied with how your work-outs were doing.  Hope you don't find this as being judgemental.   I can't tell you how many times I have fallen into the minds' trap of believing it's found 'perfection' in a diet.  Very tricky thing.  And then there's Charles who promotes basically Wallmart meat and fat at the exclusion of most anything else, including organs etc.    And extolls the notion that he is the healthiest person in the world.   We each have what seemingly works for us, at any particular time period.  And my guess is that most of us here are constantly learning, adapting and evolving as we relearn to feed ourselves.  But again, variety, as I have found offers me the greater balance or health for my body.  So Yes, for you light cooking may unlock certain nutrients you weren't assimilating before, and, or, the inclusion of the foods you now list may equally be what's feeding your 'muscles'.      For instance,  I have ducks at my farm.  I notice that I feel better when I eat at least 3-6 yolks a week, sometimes more.  However I have seen it written in forums several times that eggs don't satisfy as does meat and for that reason they are overlooked or passed by.   That's true for me too.  But my guess is that years ago foragers would never find  several dozen eggs to split amongst a tribe so that each could eat a dozen.  No, they more likely stumbled on one or a few eggs and snarfed them down right then and there, completing more of their nutritional needs.    The same logic can be applied to eating liver, heart, testicles, thymus, bone marrow, brain, kidney, eye balls, fish eggs, insects, vit-c rich fruit, whale, salmon etc. etc.   And finally reading what I have just written here,  it appears it's just as much a reminder to myself as a note to you.   Let us know how it plays out for you.  Would love to see a recent picture.   Van
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: wodgina on January 26, 2011, 03:17:42 pm
Maybe it's time to give up experimentation.

Let your body relax (or preferrably, go into a complete screaming rage) and forget about your issues for a few months just to see what happens.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on January 26, 2011, 11:56:25 pm

 I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs. Is that what you mean?
 
Phil: That might be THE eye-opener for my wanting fruit/sweet stuff couple days ago after such a long time not having touched any of the stuff: maybe it's somehow dying off of old bacteria still living in my gut flora? I always have a bloated belly after eating carbs, no matter how tiny the amount/what type of carbs-so maybe candida issues? And now as the bacteria are dying off due to ZC eating I get some cravings every now and then?
Just a thought.
Many thanks for all your help and insights!!!
Nicole
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Hanna on January 27, 2011, 12:27:31 am
>>I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs.

Hi Phil,
Could you give some details, or perhaps even links to journal articles?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on January 27, 2011, 01:05:16 am
I know that scientists have found that the dominant bacteria in your gut signal to your brain what they need, so that if your gut is dominated by carb-eating bacteria, they'll signal your brain to desire carbs. Is that what you mean?  

my take on what basically applies to this phil as well as what klowcarb observes, and rawcarni's question is that basically there are like a million different variables in terms of what is going on internally with this stuff. It is not just (digestive) bacteria, although that could very well be true as the simplest explanation. The body as I understand it is often just as much a collective of competing entities as it is a unified whole. The easiest examples for these are like parasites and overgrown fungus and so forth, but even these are just observable extremes and mutations of what is actually a very natural occurrence of 'non-compliance'. Heh. Nothing to get stressed over in it of itself.

There is no way I believe cooked food makes more calories available, but its totally plausible that:

a.) people (or some people) can use and process materials form cooked food that they cannot in raw food. I tend to think this should be able to change/improve after a shift in some of these very variables above (aka detox or whatever) but there is certainly no ruling on this either way depending on what someone desires.

b.) you are what you eat - and have eaten- so in a sense its not just digestive materials but every cell is composed of a certain type,amount and quality of tissue, and also gasses and metals and all kinds of things then can get released and cause all kinds of symptoms even when eating the most healthy foods. Craving for food on a limited diet MIGHT be as simple as legitimate cravings for raw materials, but seeing since people can go for long extended trials like ZC or 5 year OJ diets, I tend to think more often then not these are signals of trying to hold on to that old balance that that competing environment loves and thrives in. This is why I said things act for their own purposes. This is my personal belief and experience anyway.

c.) because of b.) healthy cooked foods are certainly better then overcooked meats and SAD foods, so even if your body doesn't store these toxins in fat, all tissues are still composed of these new materials which might be inferior to raw ones, or still have a net positive that is certainly acceptable as 'health', even if these cooked toxins also have other repercussions than just how they end up in muscle or fat or so forth.

I think cooked food is just as valid as any other thing if ones goal is to gain weight, but doesn't necessarily translate as better strength or fitness or health in my experience. Like Van points out, the odds are that just eating a more relaxed approach when hungry and a variety of foods without too much emphasis on how good they are...will likely lead to more efficient gains and paradoxically better overall health as Wodg mentions. At that point, one can just weight the consequences and decide what amount of micromanaging is ultimately necessary.

Personally...as a practical thing, if I was on a very limited diet, and I had all kinds of cravings, I wouldn't try to satisfy those cravings with what my body is actually craving as per the observation above with the likely culprits for such things. What I would do is eat foods I know supply similar nutrients. Like if I was craving oranges (never happens thankfully) I would get my hands on some pine pollen or something, which isn't appealing and has no abilities to ferment and feed the internal problems which beckon for such. Prior to that I might just increase my nutrition amongst RAF (organs) bones etc..and see if THAT made a difference. If these things worked in any capacity, odds are my problem had nothing o do with deficiency of sweet foods, but some kind of systemic thing that needs to be shifted.

Just my take.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on January 27, 2011, 02:33:05 am
KD: That is a very intelligent post and makes a lot of sense: I have similar views. However: I don't know if a more varied diet than ZC would actually really be better (for me) as I had the most health benefits eating ZC. The more I reduced my plant foods the better my skin looked, the strnger my nails became, my nose was never runny anymore etc. On the other hand: I think that maybe the more "healthy" your diet becomes the more strongly you react in a negative way to substances that your body cannot handle that well. Like when you have a habit of coffee drinking: you don't notice negative effects that strong as you would if you were to stop drinking coffee fow a while and then reintroduce it back.
Nicole
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 27, 2011, 04:24:05 am
Wodgina, thanks for trying to help--ironically, due to my latest experimenting I seem to have hit on some success on a couple of fronts, so no need for rages. ;D Out of desperation comes inspiration. Don't know that I should report the success in detail yet, though, because the hacks involved violate at least a couple of dogmas of this board. Folks may dismiss the successes as flukes and might be upset by the hacks.

It's interesting how my greatest breakthroughs seem to come when I get fed up with lack of progress or setback and resolve that I'm going to get to the bottom of an issue and solve it come hell or high water. The hemorrhoid was a good incentive. :) I'm trying not to count my chicks before they've hatched, though, as past improvements sometimes proved temporary.


Rawcarni, like KD wrote, there are many variables that could contribute to difficulties with carb digestion. In my case some of the symptoms I get from carbs go back as far as I can remember. One possible explanation in my case is that my GI system problems contribute to my low ability to handle carbs, perhaps due to gut dysbiosis, gut inflammation, intestinal epithelial cell damage and/or the known redundant colon. I might also have carb intolerance or fructose malabsorption, again possibly in part due to GI dysfunction.

"The more I reduced my plant foods the better my skin looked, the strnger my nails became, my nose was never runny anymore etc."

Same here, though one downside was that my constipation returned after initial improvement, and then gradually got worse. The other downside is that it's harder to add weight on pure carnivore. So I cut back on lean meat and I've added some non-meat soft and mostly fatty foods like more eggs, avocado with flavored with chopped berries, etc. and it has helped. It's closer to raw Primal than before, but not quite raw Primal either. The three aspects of foods that help me avoid constipation appear to be...

> easily digestible
> soft or liquidy foods that don't harden much when moderately dehydrated
> fatty

Eggs are a prime example that score on all three factors. They have been written off by many here as a second rate food and I had unconsciously cut back on them, but they seem to be a winner for me.


Van wrote: "I notice that I feel better when I eat at least 3-6 yolks a week, sometimes more.  However I have seen it written in forums several times that eggs don't satisfy as does meat and for that reason they are overlooked or passed by."

You read my mind. :D Whether or not eggs are second rate they seem to serve my current purposes well.


Hanna, I can't find the original article where I read about carb-loving bacteria sending signals to the brain for more carbs, but I suspect they might be the firmicutes bacteria. If you Google "firmicutes" with "carbs" or "carbohydrates" you'll find a lot of info about them.

This team has done research on firmicutes:

Research of Ruth Ley, Peter Turnbaugh, Jeffrey Gordon and colleagues at Washington University
http://gordonlab.wustl.edu/Publications.html

This article has a good summary on the but microbiota as well as leptin:

Healthy, Wealthy, Wise
By Judith Torel
Capital Region Living
January 2011
http://crlmag.com/articleDetail.cfm?id=223


KD wrote: "Like Van points out, the odds are that just eating a more relaxed approach when hungry and a variety of foods without too much emphasis on how good they are...will likely lead to more efficient gains and paradoxically better overall health as Wodg mentions."

Well said. I don't eat the exact same foods as you, but your and Van's philosophical approach seems similar to mine. I place more emphasis on health and robustness restoration than purity to raw Paleo or Instincto dietary dogma. If that means less than 100% raw Paleo in the short term and having to undergo withering attacks from Tyler, so be it.

Speaking of pine pollen, I have spruce tip tea that I like--a mild but nice flavor. I don't always heat it either--sometimes I just let teas soak in a glass of cold water.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 27, 2011, 04:47:04 am
I think where my experiments went wrong is I was focusing too much on taste/senses and maintaining weight and not enough on potential unintended consequences and the functional problem of constipation. It doesn't make sense for me to rely on the instincts of my body when it's out of whack and it doesn't make sense for me to focus on adding fuel to the machine when the machine isn't functioning properly.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on January 27, 2011, 04:51:04 am
Despite your ridiculous implication by default, my reasons for such withering attacks are instead a) that the anti-rawpalaeo claims usually cite some fraud like Wrangham or deny masses of long-published scientific data, yet are viewed with dog-like devotion by many cooked-foodists - after all, why on earth should their claims be viewed with any less rigorous analysis/criticism than the claims of raw foodists who are constantly criticised in the media re food-poisoning claims etc.?  and b) my main reason for supporting raw and palaeo is not because of some adherence to dogma but partly because my health starts suffering if I start going non-palaeo(eg/- raw dairy) or go cooked (eg by consuming cooked animal foods) -plus, there is plentiful evidence of many others having issues with such foods, whether anecdotal or scientific, whereas there is damn little info, by contrast, favouring the notion that the more one cooks a food, the healthier that food is for the human body! No studies showing that well-charred meats are always superior to raw meats or whatever.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 27, 2011, 05:14:16 am
Despite your ridiculous implication by default, my reasons for such withering attacks are instead....
Heh, heh, I know I can always count on you for a rebuttal. I wrote that with tongue in cheek but didn't think to add a smiley, sorry. At any rate, while my statement was somewhat exaggerated for humorous effect, you kind of proved my point with this response. :D

Quote
a) that the anti-rawpalaeo claims usually cite some fraud like Wrangham....
Yeah, I appreciate your taking time to refute Wrangham's claims, though I prefer not to try to figure out whether his motivations are fraudulent or not. My best guess is that he's just biased by his vegetarian and feminist orientation and perhaps unconsciously or semi-consciously seeking out data that confirms his biases, but it's just a guess and doesn't determine how factual his claims are.

Quote
...there is damn little info, by contrast, favouring the notion that the more one cooks a food, the healthier that food is for the human body! No studies showing that well-charred meats are always superior to raw meats or whatever.
I haven't seen anyone argue in favor of that, so you seem to be tilting at windmills here. The sense I get is that some folks find, for whatever reason, that adding some temporary flexibility to their diet from 100% raw Paleo purity can help restore them to full health so that they can perhaps eat a more purely raw Paleo diet in the future if they wish. The problem is, this could also become an excuse for lack of dietary discipline, so I try to be cautious with it and I'm not recommending it to anyone else, just reporting my results. Pure raw Paleo is obviously the original hominin dietary category, but some of us have undergone years of damage from modern foods. I find that doing some processing, whether it's chopping or rendering or what have you, seems to enable me to digest some foods more thoroughly and reduce constipation. I'm hoping that it's a temporary fix or that I will figure out a more raw Paleo way of achieving the same results.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on January 27, 2011, 06:45:53 am
Heh, heh, I know I can always count on you for a rebuttal. I wrote that with tongue in cheek but didn't think to add a smiley, sorry. At any rate, while my statement was somewhat exaggerated for humorous effect, you kind of proved my point with this response. :D
Not in the slightest. After all, your prior aim was to provoke a reaction on my part.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: KD on January 27, 2011, 07:20:17 am
KD: That is a very intelligent post and makes a lot of sense: I have similar views. However: I don't know if a more varied diet than ZC would actually really be better (for me) as I had the most health benefits eating ZC. The more I reduced my plant foods the better my skin looked, the strnger my nails became, my nose was never runny anymore etc. On the other hand: I think that maybe the more "healthy" your diet becomes the more strongly you react in a negative way to substances that your body cannot handle that well. Like when you have a habit of coffee drinking: you don't notice negative effects that strong as you would if you were to stop drinking coffee fow a while and then reintroduce it back.
Nicole

Sure, I was just talking about troubleshooting whether a desire for say sugar was indeed the sugar itself, or the vitamins and minerals associated with it or internal or emotional stuff or none of the above. Often even the most stubborn of nutrients can be found in certain kinds of animal foods or sunlight so I wasn't saying that one HAD to eat a varied diet (if varied means beyond animal or even paleo foods), only what I would have done in those shoes. I do think a varied diet can potentially be a benefit though : / and do think that variety within animals (at least including whole animals/organs if not sea or poultry etc..) probably should be the first place to turn for a craving or nutrition-skeptical carnivore. :)

I am wary somewhat of the purity hypothesis from past claims by vegans and my experiences, and have actually had virtually the opposite experience now, although I havn't experimented too far as far as conventional cooked or processed things at all. I seem to have less problems with foods I cook myself on occasion than I did when I started. I do agree the coffee analogy does apply to many things though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: michaelwh on January 28, 2011, 03:24:44 am
  Wrangham openly lied. He pretended that it was physically impossible to survive on a diet of raw meat and get enough daily calories unless one chewed raw meats constantly  for between 5.7 to 6.2 hours a day. This is such an outrageous lie, given multiple RVAFers' experience proving that, actually, one needs to eat less raw foods than cooked foods in order to survive and thrive. What is absolutely disgraceful is that Wrangham quite clearly hadn't even bothered to check raw foodists' experience and just made up an arbitrary figure, as RVAFers don't even need to spend an hour eating raw meats, let alone 5 or 6 hours to get their daily nutritional needs.

I don't think that's a fair statement. I've listened to an interview with Wrangham on OneRadioNetwork. I got the impression that he's quite an open-minded and honest guy. His theory about how cooking made us human might be wrong, or it might be right, I don't know, but he's definitely not a fraud or liar. He didn't make up an arbitrary figure. He talked about how he observed chimps chewing for hours. He said that he even tried to eat raw meat himself, and it took him forever to chew it.

When I first ate raw meat, I tried to chew it the same way I chew a vegetable. Took me forever. It took me at least a few weeks to learn how to eat raw meat quickly, i.e. wolf it down.

Wrangham also said that he's quite open to the idea of raw foodism today -- that the diet we evolved on is not necessarily the best one for us today.

The RAF community is quite small, Wrangham may be simply not aware that a large number of people can thrive on raw omnivorous diets. If a long-term RAFer sent him a polite email explaining this, I think he may be willing to reconsider his position.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on January 28, 2011, 07:21:26 am
Paleophil , quite rightly, pointed out previously that Wrangham had clear vegetarian biases and a (presumably related) feminist bias.

 He is also highly evasive. I once came across an interview with Wrangham in which Wrangham, in response to a question from someone on what he thought of all those studies done on heat-created toxins in cooked foods, and he just, more or less, vaguely replied that he thought we probably had adapted to them by now, and that future scientific evidence would bear him out. Given the mass of scientific data about heat-created toxins in cooked foods, one would have thought that an honest researcher would have admitted that his own stance looked rather shaky, given no evidence he could produce to support his claims.


All Wrangham has, really, to support his claims are one or two studies supposedly "showing" that a python etc. digested cooked foods better than raw foods. Trouble is, Wrangham was one of the main scientists who did the studies. Now, there are countless cases in science, where some foolish scientist has come up with what he thinks is a great-sounding theory, then done numerous studies in which he only selectively chooses the evidence that favours his theory and discards anything opposing his notions, commonly then resulting with other scientists unable to duplicate his results and/or proving the exact opposite :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

When one considers that other meat-studies have shown quite clearly that cooking meats make the protein less digestible, not more, then one can be sure that, at best, Wrangham hasn't even bothered to rigorously check such evidence before making his absurd claims.

As for the absurd claim of his re chimps chewing raw meats for hours, it makes no sense at all. I mean, some RVAFers do indeed chew all their raw meats thoroughly before swallowing them, and they don't report spending hours chewing their raw meats, either. In the past, I have even chewed  really tough connective tissue like raw lung and I still only took something like 5 minutes to chew it down to the point of being able to swallow a large chunk thereof. Granted, a chimpanzee is more raw-vegan-adapted(though much less so than gorillas) than we are, but then it is criminally irresponsible for Wrangham to suggest that chimps teeth and jaws  are exactly like those of humans, when evidence shows the exact opposite.

Another obvious point:- a chimp's lifestyle is somewhat sedentary at certain times, so it would be perfectly possible for a chimp to chew on something for hours without necessarily needing to. But, even so, that 5 to 6 hours quote is just too high for Wrangham to have seen it in the wild.

As for Wrangham's mention that a cooked diet isn't necessarily all that ideal, he, of course, had to say that, given that cooked diets are notorious for making people obese, whereas one of the main selling-points of a raw food diet(raw vegan especially) is that they lead to weight-loss. He clearly has done no research whatsoever if he mentions only weight-loss as a benefit of raw foods, though.

As for someone sending him an e-mail, he is way too biased to be able to accept any such points made. I mean, when even some truly respectable scientists hold onto cherished theories they made in their youth despite them being thoroughly debunked after some  decades, how on earth could one convince Wrangham when he, unlike the former,  has never had any decent evidence to support his own theories.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 28, 2011, 08:05:37 am
Paleophil , quite rightly, pointed out previously that Wrangham had clear vegetarian biases and a (presumably related) feminist bias.
Yeah, but I don't get the sense that he's deliberately lying and there's no proof of that, if it's at all possible to provide strong evidence that someone is intentionally lying inside their mind short of maybe a lie detector test. Instead, it seems more likely that like most people he may have "confirmation bias" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias [later edit: ah, good, I see below that you noticed this too]). Besides, like I suggested, it's not very productive to waste too much time trying to read peoples' minds to figure out their motivations and thought processes.

Quote
He is also highly evasive.
I won't disagree with you there, but again, I think you could do more productive things than focus on criticizing others personally, such as perhaps refute their points with solid evidence. When you do that I find your posts much more persuasive and less offputting.

Quote
...then done numerous studies in which he only selectively chooses the evidence that favours his theory and discards anything opposing his notions, commonly then resulting with other scientists unable to duplicate his results and/or proving the exact opposite :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Yes, now I think you are more on the right target and it's easier, though still difficult, to provide evidence and a persuasive argument of confirmation bias than of conscious lying. I suspect that confirmation bias is the key problem that is misdirecting Dr. Wrangham, and it is a common error in scientific research. However, I acknowledge that I can't prove this. It's more of a hunch supported by what I consider fairly persuasive circumstantial evidence.

Quote
Another obvious point:- a chimp's lifestyle is somewhat sedentary at certain times, so it would be perfectly possible for a chimp to chew on something for hours without necessarily needing to.
This is a good point that I don't recall Wrangham addressing. Other scientists have reported that chimps like to slowly savor monkey meat, as it's apparently their favorite food (although I wonder if the chimps that eat honey prefer that). To assume that raw meat takes a long time for humans to eat because it takes chimps a long time is bogus for this and other reasons, like different jaw morphology, as you pointed out.

Quote
As for Wrangham's mention that a cooked diet isn't necessarily all that ideal, he, of course, had to say that, given that cooked diets are notorious for making people obese, whereas one of the main selling-points of a raw food diet(raw vegan especially) is that they lead to weight-loss.
Yes, it is ironic that Wrangham has argued that the increased calories from cooking foods is a good thing and made humans bigger, stronger, with bigger brains, etc., but at the same time acknowledges that it contributes to the deleterious effect of obesity. It's good to see that you have touched on some persuasive facts and not just personal attacks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 30, 2011, 08:26:09 am
I do think a varied diet can potentially be a benefit though : / and do think that variety within animals (at least including whole animals/organs if not sea or poultry etc..) probably should be the first place to turn for a craving or nutrition-skeptical carnivore.
Yes, I don't understand how some ZCers who avoid or dismiss organs reconcile that with justifying their diet by claiming that humans are natural carnivorous predators, given that the favorite food of carnivorous predators like big cats and canids is reportedly offal. A diet of only muscle meats and butter doesn't have an equivalent in any wild animal or traditional human population I've read about. Even the Masai and Inuit eat organs and other foods and even Stefansson admitted that indigenous North Americans relished marrow, the liver of "loche" (loach fish) and even moose nose:

"To hunting man, the marrow of the long bones is the greatest delicacy he knows, except perhaps boiled moose nose or the boiled liver of the loche [which Stefansson wrote is "a fresh-water fish that, although nowhere taken in large numbers, is perhaps the favorite food fish of the Eskimos of northern Canada and Alaska. It is especially prized for its large, fatty liver."]." (FOTL, pp. 27-28)

Plus, the foods in the Bellevue study so heavily promoted by ZCers included liver, kidney, brain and marrow:

"The meat used included beef, lamb, veal, pork, and chicken. The parts used were muscle, liver, kidney, brain, bone marrow, bacon, and fat. While on lecture trips V.S. occasionally ate eggs and a little butter when meat was not readily obtainable. The carbohydrate content of the diet was very small, consisting solely of the glycogen in the meat. ... A sample menu for the day, given in raw weights follows.

Breakfast: lean beef, 190 gm.; fat, 100 gm.
Dinner: liver, 200 gm.; fat, 75 gm.
Supper: lean beef, 200 gm.; marrow, 70 gm."

(From the Stefansson all-meat Bellevue Hospital study, "PROLONGED MEAT DIETS WITH A STUDY OF KIDNEY FUNCTION AND KETOSIS.*" BY WALTER S. MCCLELLAN AND EUGENE F. Du BOIS. From the Russell Sage Institute of Pathology in Association with the Second Medical (Cornell) Division of Bellevue Hospital, New York. Received for publication, February 13, 1930. Downloaded from The Journal of Biological Chemistry Website, www.jbc.org, on July 6, 2008)

Quote
I do agree the coffee analogy does apply to many things though.
Yes, that was an excellent point by Nicole. Sometimes we don't know that we are getting negative effects from consuming a food (such as the coffee example) until we avoid it for a while and then reintroduce it, or that we are getting negative effects from not eating something until we reintroduce it (as with the vegetarians/vegans and meats).

-----

An unrelated sidebar: I modified my signature to take into account of the fact that my current diet is somewhat altered and changing and more focused now on managing longtime GI and underweight issues than on mostly-raw facultative carnivory. I had originally added the RFC label to my avatar because some folks seemed to be under the misimpression that I  had some ideological bent towards ZC, perhaps because I'm the moderator of the forum with ZC in the label or because of my past experiment with ZC (which was never intended to be permanent), I don't know. I haven't been noticing that misunderstanding as much lately and the RFC label is not a very accurate descriptor based on what I'm trying to accomplish right now, so I dispensed with it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on February 01, 2011, 05:33:24 pm
Yes, I don't understand how some ZCers who avoid or dismiss organs reconcile that with justifying their diet by claiming that humans are natural carnivorous predators, given that the favorite food of carnivorous predators like big cats and canids is reportedly offal. A diet of only muscle meats and butter doesn't have an equivalent in any wild animal or traditional human population I've read about.

I totally agree with this. I eat a wide variety of different animals-and that not only means ruminants but also wild boar, pork, all sorts of different fowl and eat organs as well. Oh I also eat fish-some times a lot and several days a weak. This is also somewhat different from Lex's way of eating, who is quite happy and succesful with his theory and practice that man thrives best on red meat (beef, elk etc.) However I myself am not satisfied for a longer period of time when I have the same animal only. My hunger tends to increase after some time and I have observed also that cravings start when I eat the same type of animal for weeks on end. I assume each animal species has a different nutrient profile  ???
Nicole
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on February 01, 2011, 06:09:40 pm
I totally agree with this. I eat a wide variety of different animals-and that not only means ruminants but also wild boar, pork, all sorts of different fowl and eat organs as well. Oh I also eat fish-some times a lot and several days a weak. This is also somewhat different from Lex's way of eating, who is quite happy and succesful with his theory and practice that man thrives best on red meat (beef, elk etc.) However I myself am not satisfied for a longer period of time when I have the same animal only. My hunger tends to increase after some time and I have observed also that cravings start when I eat the same type of animal for weeks on end. I assume each animal species has a different nutrient profile  ???
Nicole
Correct, they have widely differing nutrient-profiles, plus there are differences between grassfed meats depending on whether the farmer feeds them grains in winter or not, or if the farmer has grazing fields with extra nutritious herbs like clover etc..

I feel the same way re need for variety. I find I thrive far better if I don't stick to just 1 type of animal.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 10, 2011, 09:34:43 am
I tried raw jicama and don't care for it at all when plain and on its own. I'll try lime with it and see how that goes. Still loving the raw organic parsnips, though, and I found that the key with them is buying high quality organic parsnips. The supermarket parsnips were so bad that I threw out the last one (I wish I had a garden that I could mulch it into). That's one plant food that I can really tell the difference between organic and conventional.

Have had some more improvement in the bowel area. Mashed avocado and raw egg yolks seem to help with that and I seem to be slowly improving in handling digesting avocados so that I can eat somewhat more each time before I develop mild belching or stomach upset. It beats being at #1 on the Bristol stool scale. I definitely handle avocados much better than coconut oil, and while I don't like the taste of either, the avocado is less offputting to me and it tastes great if I add raw honey or a lot of blackberries. The downside of that is the symptoms I get from carbs (dry skin, scalp, lips, and mouth, throat, sinus and colon mucus, cystic acne, white spots on the fingernails, vertical fingernail ridges, stomach ache, white crud coating my teeth, nasty taste in my mouth, less restful sleep, flank pain, UTIs, back pain, toe cramps, etc.), so I'm trying to find a way to resolve the constipation and underweight without triggering too much of the carby symptoms. It's a bit of a catch-22, but I'm hoping to find away around or through it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 10, 2011, 04:06:42 pm
Still didn't try cassia fistula, Phil? 
 ???

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on February 10, 2011, 09:00:59 pm
Hey Phil,
The other day I had a single air dried hot pepper-well it was stimulating my digestive system...and that (funny...) made me think of you, as you seem to have pretty poor digestion: Have you tried eating more hot/spicy stuff along with meat (such as pepper, garlic etc?)
Nicole
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Johan August on February 11, 2011, 03:49:32 am
Hi Phil
I have been reading your posts here and in Lex Rooker's journal. Both of you are very helpful to a newcomer like me.

A source of "natural" magnesium could be magnesium water. It is made by adding 50ml of magnesium hydroxide (I use MoM) to one litre of carbonated soda water, any basic one will do. After adding magnesium hydroxide shake it thoroughly for thirty seconds and put into the fridge for 30 minutes and then give it a second quick shake. Then take 100ml of this "concentrate" and add it to tap water 1:9. You now have a copy of naturally occurring spring water which is magnesium rich. If you use it for all your drinking you will get a fairly good addition of magnesium carbonate. I use it to ease constipation and prevent atrial fibrillation.
If you have any questions do ask.

JA
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on February 11, 2011, 04:23:05 am
really tough connective tissue like raw lung

Why do you always say lung is tough? The lungs I've eaten are soft like marshmallow..
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2011, 04:46:08 am
Why do you always say lung is tough? The lungs I've eaten are soft like marshmallow..
   Hardly. It's full of cartilage.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on February 11, 2011, 06:14:40 am
What's wrong with cartilage? They are only tiny short tubes.. I don't even notice them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2011, 06:43:39 am
What's wrong with cartilage? They are only tiny short tubes.. I don't even notice them.
  Perhaps you cut up the raw lung into such tiny pieces that it's not a bother.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on February 11, 2011, 07:07:03 am
No I got the lungs whole, with the heart, tongue and liver attached... I don't cut up any of my meat, if I cut it's only to separate different parts e.g. tongue from lungs etc, for handling/storage, never to affect the eating. I just bite into the lungs and eat them like I would a muscle joint, a liver, a kidney, a heart, a pancreas etc... The tubes are like a couple of millimetres long each, just mixed in with the lung meat.. They cause no problem whatsoever..
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 11, 2011, 08:05:14 am
Still didn't try cassia fistula, Phil?  
 ???

I found a source for it at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HW5SA4/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A14UNMB2R96UBX, which is convenient for me because I buy other stuff via Amazon, and I added it to my cart. It's an organic vendor (http://www.naturalzing.com/nzaboutus.htm). It will go through with my next order.

How long does cassia last before going "bad"? How do you store it? Do you eat it? If so, about how often do you eat it and about how much at one time, on average? Does it work to reverse the underlying problems that cause constipation or is it just a temporary fix that one must keep taking as constipation develops?

Hey Phil,
The other day I had a single air dried hot pepper-well it was stimulating my digestive system...and that (funny...) made me think of you, as you seem to have pretty poor digestion: Have you tried eating more hot/spicy stuff along with meat (such as pepper, garlic etc?)
Nicole
Yes, I used to eat and enjoy some nightshade peppers but found I did better without them. I occasionally eat garlic. Do you eat it rare? If so, how do you eat it? Garlic is very strong rare. Do you dry it?

It is made by adding 50ml of magnesium hydroxide (I use MoM) to one litre of carbonated soda water, any basic one will do.
Yes, I know it's considered heresy here by some, but I do use small amounts of some supplemental Mg free of any stearate or additives and eat some Mg-rich foods as part of my program for dealing with chronic decades-long constipation and dental issues. I try to use supplements that are as much like foods as possible--I call them foodlements--to minimize added risk.

I don't claim that supplements/foodlements are necessary for people who are completely healthy who have access to optimal foods and I'm not trying to achieve supernormal health, I just find some foodlements (not many) to be beneficial for certain of my symptoms that are not yet completely resolved. I see them more as replacements for what I'm lacking/missing either in my body or my diet than as supplements above and beyond what can be obtained from an optimal diet. I only use them because they work for me, not out of any philosophy or ideology and I only take the minimum of foodlements I need to manage the symptoms. Plus, I study foodlements and their potential side effects before I try them. My long-term goal is to be free of any foodlements or supplements. I'm already free of all medications, which was an earlier goal. Supplements and medications add a level of complexity and unknown risk that I'd rather avoid if possible. When the choice is between medications or foodlements, I choose foodlements. I do think that it is wise to be skeptical about supplements and medications, but it's unhelpful when people jump to negative broad-brush and stereotyped conclusions about anyone who uses them. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of false negative assumptions made here and elsewhere (not by you, of course) about people (often lumping all together) who use foodlements/supplements and I hope I've put them to rest in my case.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 11, 2011, 10:06:06 am
I discovered a small Iraqi market that opened up 2 months ago a few blocks from my home. They sell honeycomb that's darker than most but it's the liquidy, sugary kind of honey I don't care much for. No exotic organ meats that I could see.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on February 11, 2011, 02:03:32 pm
I occasionally eat garlic. Do you eat it rare? If so, how do you eat it? Garlic is very strong rare. Do you dry it?

I eat it raw. But I am probably used to the strong taste as I have been eating it raw since childhood (people in Germany like to put raw garlic slices on bread with salami  ;))
Nicole
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2011, 03:57:47 pm
I love raw garlic. I absolutely adore the taste of raw garlic leaves, but most shops/stalls only ever sell the bulbs.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 11, 2011, 05:05:38 pm
I found a source for it at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HW5SA4/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A14UNMB2R96UBX, which is convenient for me because I buy other stuff via Amazon, and I added it to my cart. It's an organic vendor (http://www.naturalzing.com/nzaboutus.htm). It will go through with my next order.

How long does cassia last before going "bad"? How do you store it? Do you eat it? If so, about how often do you eat it and about how much at one time, on average? Does it work to reverse the underlying problems that cause constipation or is it just a temporary fix that one must keep taking as constipation develops?

I keep cassia sticks in my fridge. It lasts several months or even years. If it becomes too dry, we can dampen it in a wet cloth, but when stored in the fridge it's not necessary.

You can break it with a nutcracker or with the teeth and suck the soft parts, then spit the hard wooden parts and seeds. I suck some disks when it smells and tastes good, at least half an hour before a meal, usually in the morning or in the evening before going to sleep. Begin gradually with 4 or 5 discs maximum and then you can double the amount everyday until you reach the instinctive stop which occurs for me with a hard, strong too sweet taste, almost mouth burning.

In the link you provided, is $10.95 the price for one stick only? If so, it's much too expensive.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 12, 2011, 06:19:44 am
Garlic leaves sounds good. Never seen them, unfortunately.

You can break it with a nutcracker or with the teeth and suck the soft parts, then spit the hard wooden parts and seeds.
Wooden parts? :P

Quote
I suck some disks when it smells and tastes good, at least half an hour before a meal, usually in the morning or in the evening before going to sleep.
How often, on avg?

Quote
In the link you provided, is $10.95 the price for one stick only? If so, it's much too expensive.

OK, I'll check elsewhere, thanks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 12, 2011, 06:37:42 am
Wooden parts? :P
Yes, the shell is a kind of thin wood and each disk has also a thin wood frame on each side of which  there’s the soft thing to suck!
Quote
How often, on avg?
You can test its smell (once the shell is broken) everyday or twice  a day (or even anytime you like) and have some everyday as long as you like its taste. Personally I do long periods without it and then I have it again for some period… it doesn’t change much for me if eat some everyday or not.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2011, 08:28:04 pm
So even though it is a legume and contains lectins, you think it is OK to eat every day? What about the warnings of Cordain and others about the lectins in legumes?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 14, 2011, 08:49:48 pm
We eat it only as long as it remains tasty, so we don’t run into the risk of eating too much of it. Toxicity is always dependent on the dose. A stuff may be necessary at the correct dose and become noxious when in excess, even plain water (http://www.dhmo.org/dihydrogen-monoxide/). Since I’m a paleo hominid, I have no knowledge at all about lectins, enzymes, proteins, antinutrients, etc. and moreover I don’t know whether cassia fistula is a legume or whatever. All these classification of foodstuff are artificial, like every classification. I don’t give a damn about it and I just eat whatever tastes good. Whatever unprocessed paleostufff tastes good is good for me, that’s all I need to know.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on February 14, 2011, 09:11:53 pm
... no knowledge at all about lectins, enzymes, proteins, antinutrients, etc. and moreover I don’t know whether cassia fistula is a legume or whatever. All these classification of foodstuff are artificial, like every classification. I don’t give a damn about it ...

    Thinking constancy can be unhealthy for the body. We know too that eating certain foods require thinking excessively.  I'm glad to eat in a manner where calorie counting and all that don't matter (I do feel better though eating at least certain ratio fat with RP).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: RawZi on February 14, 2011, 09:14:02 pm
    But Phil, I should add the fact I like reading your well put together science :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 15, 2011, 07:05:46 am
Toxicity is always dependent on the dose.
Not just dose; also frequency and duration. Toxins accumulate.


Thanks Rawzi and don't worry, while I enjoy thinking I don't think constantly. ;D As a matter of fact, I make a point of engaging in periods of non-thinking meditation every day. I've never been a fan of calorie counting either.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 16, 2011, 04:29:14 pm
Not just dose; also frequency and duration. Toxins accumulate.

Yes, especially DDT, dieldrin, aldrin, PCBs, dioxin, furans, heavy metals, etc. accumulate while most natural organic compounds can be biodegraded, detoxified and eliminated by our body as long as the dose and frequency remains within conditions encountered in natural instinctive regulation.

It’s a matter of amount ingested against amount detoxified and/or eliminated. Of course, if the first is greater then the second, there’s accumulation.
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POPs are organic chemical compounds which bioaccumulate in animals and humans.  (http://www.ipen.org/ipenweb/generalpublic/whatpops.html) These pollutants are primarily the products and by-products of human industrial processes.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 16, 2011, 08:19:35 pm
Right, I should have written "can accumulate" to be more precise. This is the hypothesis of Eaton, Cordain and others behind how grains and legumes can still be harmful for us despite toxin reduction via cooking and/or other processing--even small amounts of toxins can accumulate over time when eaten chronically in staple foods. Plants with strong medicinal effects tend to also be more toxic as a result, just as more potent pharmaceuticals tend to have more severe side effects in the long run. Beneficial in the short run, but harmful in the long run if consumed chronically in significant amounts, and sometimes the amounts don't even have to be that much.  The same appears to hold with antinutrients. Even small amounts of antinutrients can apparently cause deficiencies when consumed as staples in the longer run.

The critics of Paleo nutrition say that there aren't enough toxins/antinutrients in agrarian foods to cause any problems, but we don't really know at what level each plant chemical becomes damaging for each and every individual and less of the constraints of nature, like seasonality, competitors, physical difficulties (such as having to climb a tree and contend with bees to get forest honeycomb/grubcomb), physical characteristics of the food itself (such as the wild honeycomb/grubcomb with grubs, bee parts, royal jelly, propolis, pollen and wax vs. commercial filtered and heated honey from less robust domesticated bees) are left in this world to guide our intakes. Even GCB admits that highly domesticated fruit should be limited with the brain, not just the instinct, as the instinctive stop has likely been negatively affected by human intervention in the makeup of domesticated fruits.

Thus while wild and organic plants can have marvelous benefits, I'd prefer not to eat the same plant every day or nearly every day if I can avoid it, particularly the more medicinal ones. Cassia fistula seems like a somewhat medicinal plant.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 20, 2011, 11:22:28 am
Iguana, since I was making an Amazon order anyway, I ordered one of the cassia fistula pods with it. How do I open it and eat some "slices"?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 20, 2011, 03:49:41 pm
You can break it with a nutcracker or with the teeth and suck the soft parts, then spit the hard wooden parts and seeds. I suck some disks when it smells and tastes good, at least half an hour before a meal, usually in the morning or in the evening before going to sleep. Begin gradually with 4 or 5 discs maximum and then you can double the amount everyday until you reach the instinctive stop which occurs for me with a hard, strong too sweet taste, almost mouth burning

Enjoy!
François
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 21, 2011, 06:12:28 am
So sorry for forgetting your past post Iguana. My memory is poor, probably due to decades of damage by modern foods. Are the disks you speak of the dividing walls between the seeds inside the cassia bean pod? All I see is an extremely hard outer pod shell, inner dividing walls stuck to the shell, and small seeds in between the walls. Unless you had told me that cassia fistula were edible, I would never have guessed it, nor guessed which parts to eat (I would have guessed the seeds, as they look the most foodlike). I sucked on a few of the walls. They do dissolve. I don't care for the taste from the beginning (it's mildly bitter with a bit of excessive sweetness) and I didn't detect any smell. By sticking my nose right up to it I detected a mild and mildly unpleasant smell. So I guess my alliesthetic senses are telling me to not eat these. GCB advised to force oneself to eat the cassia fistula beyond what the senses indicate in the beginning, which for me was the first taste, to basically break the constipation log jam, so I did so to try it out.

I tried sucking on 4 of the little internal wall dividers last night until they dissolved in my mouth. No noticeable effects today.

What parts of these do the monkeys eat? I find it difficult to imagine that they would pick out the little wall dividers and ignore the seeds, but I have no info on this beyond what you've reported. How do the monkeys open them, by crushing them with their teeth?

---

I tried a few more honeys, not because I expect any great benefits necessarily, though they are a calorically dense soft food, which addresses two of my health issues, but more out of scientific curiosity. Modern physicians, scientists and experts tell us that honey is just another sugar, yet for some reason wild honey doesn't seem to cause any obvious harm to hunter gatherers and traditional peoples. The experts claims it's only because the honey is restricted by season and difficult to get. I've seen HGs and even chimps gather wild honey and in each case they seemed unconcerned by the risk of falling and even the stings, so I doubt that difficulty was a great deterrent. The scientific research acknowledges that bee hive contents are the most highly valued food among HGs and some other primates and bears. I don't know much about the seasonality, perhaps someone else can fill me in on that.

I noted here - http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/liquid-raw-honey/msg63389/#msg63389 - that some raw wild honeys can remain liquid after being jarred for some time whereas another variety of honey from the same producer can crystallize quickly. Some honeys crystallize into soft creams whereas others turn hard. The water content of the honey is apparently a factor here, and someone also mentioned that the fructose content is a factor.

The Heavenly Organics Wild Forest raw honey is rather dark and greenish in color and has a taste reminiscent of the smell of pine trees. They mention that it comes from forests that contain neem trees. Neem is well known as good for dental health and I did notice that despite being a very liquid honey it seemed to cause a tiny bit less dental crud the next morning than some other honeys.

Their White Himalayan honey was tastier and nicely thick, soft and smooth. I think it may be my favorite tasting honey so far. It seemed to cause the more usual amount of dental crud.

Y.S. Bee Farms Super Enriched Honey is dark like the Wild Forest honey, and still greener (although I'm color blind, so it could be brown as I have difficulty distinguishing green and brown). It also seems to cause a tiny bit less of the crud and have a forest-type taste that is also a bit medicinal. Perhaps the latter is because it's enriched with bee pollen, propolis and royal jelly, which are supposed to have medicinal benefits. While I'm not thrilled by the taste, it has some of the best texture and consistency--smoothness and soft thickness--I've come across, maybe the best.

Today I also tested the effect on blood glucose of the YS Bee Farms Super Enriched Honey with Bee Pollen, Propolis and Royal Jelly, which was almost exactly the same as other honeys:
Fasting BG before consuming the honey: 97 mg/dl
Ate 2 tbsps of the honey
1 hour postprandial BG: 208 mg/dl
2 hour pp BG: 112 mg/dl
3 hour pp BG: 101 mg/dl

Interestingly, I've been getting some fasting BG measurements around the 100 mg/dl level despite including significant carbs in my diet for months. If those levels were initially caused by peripheral insulin resistance from ZC/VLC, then it's supposed to return to lower levels by adding carbs back into the diet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on February 21, 2011, 09:14:33 am
I don't know much about the seasonality, perhaps someone else can fill me in on that.
Simply that flowers only bloom part of the year so pollen is collected and honey is made at those times only. I suppose you could find hives outside of this period though.

Phil; My apologies if you mentioned this earlier in the journal but roughly how much honey are you ingesting at once to test your blood sugar? Also, have you tried the honey in conjunction with a fat to see how it affects your blood sugar response?
I've personally had success with a very minimal amount of raw comb with a typical meal of suet & ground beef. Anything more than the scant 1/2 teaspoon with 1 pound ground and ~1/4 pound suet and I get soreness to my eyes. If I eat the right amount though I seem to have better energy the next day (I add the honey at my second, dinnertime, meal). :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 21, 2011, 09:26:08 am
Phil; My apologies if you mentioned this earlier in the journal but roughly how much honey are you ingesting at once to test your blood sugar?
Usually 2 tablespoons (34 g carbs per nutritiondata), as mentioned above. That's enough to shoot my BG above 200 to see how well it returns to normal after 2-3 hours. No need to go higher like a pound of honey like what Brady eats. Less than 1-2 tbsps doesn't seem like enough to satisfy me. Kind of like trying to eat just one potato chip.

Quote
Also, have you tried the honey in conjunction with a fat to see how it affects your blood sugar response?
Yes, I did report on that some time ago. As I recall, it had provided a small reduction in the BG spike.

Quote
I've personally had success with a very minimal amount of raw comb with a typical meal of suet & ground beef. Anything more than the scant 1/2 teaspoon with 1 pound ground and ~1/4 pound suet and I get soreness to my eyes.
Interesting. I haven't had the sore eyes experience, though I do wake up with sand in my eyes sometimes if I overdo it on honey. I seem to handle 2 tbsps in a day relatively OK, with a little bit of dry skin, but I do get substantially worse dry skin, particularly dry forehead and chapped lips, when I eat well over 2 tbsps in a day.

---

Forgot to mention that I noticed that after eating a packet of those freeze dried durian I get nasty sulphurous burps afterwards.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on February 21, 2011, 10:09:55 am
djr, i find this interesting about your 1/2 tsp of honey.  it seems calorically and nutritionally negligible to me, but obviously it's not.  i don't get it.  does it have to be honey??   
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 21, 2011, 04:02:10 pm
So sorry for forgetting your past post Iguana. My memory is poor, probably due to decades of damage by modern foods.

Or else it’s because there's too much info available and we can’t remember every post and everything!  ;D

Quote
Are the disks you speak of the dividing walls between the seeds inside the cassia bean pod? All I see is an extremely hard outer pod shell, inner dividing walls stuck to the shell, and small seeds in between the walls. Unless you had told me that cassia fistula were edible, I would never have guessed it, nor guessed which parts to eat (I would have guessed the seeds, as they look the most foodlike). I sucked on a few of the walls. They do dissolve. I don't care for the taste from the beginning (it's mildly bitter with a bit of excessive sweetness) and I didn't detect any smell. By sticking my nose right up to it I detected a mild and mildly unpleasant smell. So I guess my alliesthetic senses are telling me to not eat these. GCB advised to force oneself to eat the cassia fistula beyond what the senses indicate in the beginning, which for me was the first taste, to basically break the constipation log jam, so I did so to try it out.

Yes, most people don’t swallow the seeds and the hard part of the disks which are between the seeds but only the brown-black soft thing which dissolves in the mouth. Some pods are not tasty, too dry, while some others are yummy. Therefore it’s better to have a few of them and compare their taste in a way to be able to reject the few bad ones. It’s a wild stuff and like all wild stuff there are large differences from one to the other. 

Quote
I tried sucking on 4 of the little internal wall dividers last night until they dissolved in my mouth. No noticeable effects today.

So, you may go up to 8 today, 16 tomorrow, 32, the day after, 64 the next day, then 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2028… (doubling the amount each day). I bet your constipation will be over before you reach 2028…  ;) ;D

Quote
What parts of these do the monkeys eat? I find it difficult to imagine that they would pick out the little wall dividers and ignore the seeds, but I have no info on this beyond what you've reported. How do the monkeys open them, by crushing them with their teeth?

I’ve never been able to observe a monkey eating it, that’s just what I’ve been told. I guess they crush it with their teeth like I do sometimes and they spit the parts they don’t like as no one told’em spitting is not nice in society…
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: djr_81 on February 21, 2011, 07:39:19 pm
djr, i find this interesting about your 1/2 tsp of honey.  it seems calorically and nutritionally negligible to me, but obviously it's not.  i don't get it.  does it have to be honey??   
I don't know yet. I'll try it with something else in the future and keep everyone posted in my journal. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 21, 2011, 08:18:36 pm
Yes, most people don’t swallow the seeds and the hard part of the disks which are between the seeds but only the brown-black soft thing which dissolves in the mouth. Some pods are not tasty, too dry, while some others are yummy.
I think I got one of the dry ones. It didn't have anything truly soft in it. All I see are the hard outer shell, the inner dividers that dissolve in my mouth, and the seeds.

Quote
So, you may go up to 8 today, 16 tomorrow, 32, the day after, 64 the next day, then 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2028… (doubling the amount each day). I bet your constipation will be over before you reach 2028…  ;) ;D
I went up to 8 last night and it did get the bowels moving but it had the sort of harsh effect that senna pills have on me, plus it created a lot of foul smelling flatulence. I'll spare folks the graphic details, but the stools were far from optimal and also foul smelling and I felt an unpleasant sensation as they came out and had some mild cramping. I also developed a bit of throat mucus, which in my experience is my body's way of trying to expel something inflammatory or irritating that I ate, like acidic foods and high-antinutrient or poorly tolerated foods. Not so much a detox as a protox. ;D I was hoping that a senna "food" would be less harsh than the senna pills, but apparently not for me. This is the same sort of experience I have with senna pills--they go from not working at all to working harshly, with little or no in-between, although senna tea works less harshly for me, but still more harshly than avocados with eggs.

Avocados with eggs work more gently, with just a small amount of stomach gas and the stools are well formed and it feels pleasant as they come out, so avocados and eggs still seem to be my best therapy so far. However, I have to eat quite a bit of them for it to work and I'm not thrilled by the prospect of having to eat a lot of avocados and eggs nearly every day. As was pointed out by someone else, avocados, like all plant foods (yes, even fruits, believe it or not), contain at least one toxin--persin. However, fruits tend to contain lower levels of toxins than legumes and humans are more adapted to fruits than legumes, so it's not surprising that avocados would affect me less negatively than the cassia fistula legume and I'm less concerned in the longer run too. I will continue to keep my eye out for other therapies too so that with luck some time in the future I may not have to rely as much on avocados, eggs, marrow and honey.

Quote
I’ve never been able to observe a monkey eating it, that’s just what I’ve been told. I guess they crush it with their teeth like I do sometimes and they spit the parts they don’t like as no one told’em spitting is not nice in society…
No offense, but I can see why those people who said the monkeys eat it don't eat the cassia fistula themselves and leave it to the monkeys. ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 25, 2011, 04:01:33 pm
Do you think the heat damaged and other abnormal molecules from the Neolithic and modern food you have eaten for years would come out enjoyably and with a pleasant smell ?

Cheers
Francois
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 25, 2011, 06:45:24 pm
I don't buy the claim that there's any relation to the Neolithic foods I haven't eaten in years. I find it highly more likely that the smell was created by the cassia fistula that I ate the day before than foods I ate years ago, particularly since the smell was basically the same as the smell I get any time I take a fairly big dose of senna. Does that same smell and other shared unpleasant symptoms mean that senna pills are also providing a marvelous detox benefit?

It's the same sort of claim made by proponents of any diet/food/therapy when it doesn't work for someone. They'll claim that any negative symptoms from one of their recommended foods are actually healthy "detox," regardless of how long the negative symptoms persist. Thus, for example, Aajonus kept telling Tyler to consume raw dairy regardless of how bad the symptoms were that resulted and regardless of how long those negative symptoms persisted. Eventually Tyler realized that it was the raw milk that was causing the problems, not some imaginary "detox" of foods eaten years earlier. I've even seen raw vegans claim that cavities and crumbling teeth were signs of a healthy "detox." So we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 26, 2011, 11:55:52 pm
I agree that not every negative  symptom is due to detox, of course, and the examples you give show it perfectly. But it’s clearly illogical as well to jump on the opposite belief that detox doesn’t exist.

Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.
 

If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available? Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health? Would you interrupt a bacterial illness by taking antibiotics? Would you go to a dermatologist in case you get rashes? What do you think comes out of the nose when we have a cold? How do you explain we can get colds in hot tropical climates?
I saw (or rather smelled  -v) it again a few months ago when I bought 6 weeks old hens which had been fed on factory feedstuffs. Their manure had a foul smell which progressively diminished and almost disappeared over a duration of one to two months, even that they were now only grazing, fed raw leftovers and a bit of organic unheated millet. So, it perfectly confirmed once again that the duration of detoxination is of the same order of magnitude than the duration of intoxination, as GCB had noticed during his 45 years experience and meticulous observations on hundreds of animals and humans.   
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 27, 2011, 01:58:17 am
I agree that not every negative  symptom is due to detox, of course, and the examples you give show it perfectly. But it’s clearly illogical as well to jump on the opposite belief that detox doesn’t exist.
Yes, it would be, but I didn't claim that "detox" doesn't exist and no two people seem to have the exact same meaning of the word, so I wouldn't even necessarily know what I was claiming doesn't exist, and thus it's not clear that anyone is jumping on that "belief". Straw men arguments are also clearly illogical.

I try to take a Socratic approach. I find Socratic questioning to be highly valuable and the only belief I am sure of is that I am sure of nothing with certainty.

Quote
I saw (or rather smelled  -v) it again a few months ago when I bought 6 weeks old hens which had been fed on factory feedstuffs. Their manure had a foul smell which progressively diminished and almost disappeared over a duration of one to two months, ....
Well it's been way more than two months since I ate SAD, so by your own standards then it's apparently highly unlikely that the symptoms I got after consuming cassia fistula were related to SAD eating years ago.

---*---

On an unrelated topic that was hit upon recently in my journal, I came across something rather interesting:

"Dates contain elemental fluorine that is useful in protecting teeth against decay." (The fruit of the date palm: its possible use as the best food for the future? (http://www.noorbiotechnologies.com/The%20fruit%20of%20the%20date%20palm%20its%20possible%20use%20as%20the%20best%20food%20for%20the%20future.pdf))
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on February 27, 2011, 02:57:46 am
I didn't claim that "detox" doesn't exist

Sorry, I thought you believed  that no detox can occur. So, you admit detox could happen, then?

Quote
Well it's been way more than two months since I ate SAD, so by your own standards then it's apparently highly unlikely that the symptoms I got after consuming cassia fistula were related to SAD eating years ago.

(…) the duration of detoxination is of the same order of magnitude than the duration of intoxination (…)

It means that if you have eaten cooked food for 2 months, you will more or less detox for about 2 months and if you have eaten cooked food for 30 years, your detox will last approximately 30 years. Of course it’s not linear, but gradually decreasing: intense at the beginning, barely noticeable in the end.  

Quote
On an unrelated topic that was hit upon recently in my journal, I came across something rather interesting:

"Dates contain elemental fluorine that is useful in protecting teeth against decay." (The fruit of the date palm: its possible use as the best food for the future? (http://www.noorbiotechnologies.com/The%20fruit%20of%20the%20date%20palm%20its%20possible%20use%20as%20the%20best%20food%20for%20the%20future.pdf))

Thanks. Yes, dates contain a lot of minerals, mg and ca also if I remember.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 01, 2011, 10:01:12 am
Sorry, I thought you believed  that no detox can occur. So, you admit detox could happen, then?
I don't see everything as fitting into neat binary boxes, including "detox." I don't see it as a choice between accepting everything GCB says about detox or rejecting any notion like it completely. I believe that detoxification can happen, but my conception of detox appears to differ somewhat from yours. I find it highly more likely that the symptoms I got came from detoxing the cassia fistula I ate the day before than from modern foods eaten years ago. Cassia fistula contains known medicinal substances that the body deals with by expelling as rapidly as possible, thus contributing to its laxative effect, which can be beneficial on a short-term basis, but is generally not recommended chronically. In other words, I think it's more likely that my body was detoxing from the cassia fistula that I ate the night before than from the pizza I ate 30 years ago, which would be OK if it weren't so harsh. Sennoside therapeutics like Cassia fistula remain in my toolkit, but they are a last resort.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on March 01, 2011, 03:35:06 pm
I don't see everything as fitting into neat binary boxes, including "detox." I don't see it as a choice between accepting everything GCB says about detox or rejecting any notion like it completely.

Fine.

Quote
I believe that detoxification can happen, but my conception of detox appears to differ somewhat from yours. I find it highly more likely that the symptoms I got came from detoxing the cassia fistula I ate the day before than from modern foods eaten years ago.

That’s the problem: knowing whether  the symptoms we get are due to what we  just ate or because it triggered a detox of something we ate long ago. It’s always difficult to know. That’s has been one of the focus of GCB’s research and what he has inferred is based on comprehensive observations on a lot of people and animals during several years. Of course you don’t have to believe it and you can do your own experiments and research. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 06, 2011, 07:02:25 pm
Yes, there are no objective data that can tell me whether "detox" is caused by what I ate the day before or decades ago, just my experience to go on. I've had enough experience with senna at this point that I think I recognize what effects are produced directly by it. You don't have to believe me, of course, and your own experience may be different, which is fine. There's no law that says that everyone has to have the same experience.

The definition in the lowest part of my abdomen is now better than any point in my life. I'm astounded that an area that used to be so weak that it had an inguinal pre-hernia bulge that would pop out and was painful is now one of my best-defined areas. I didn't think this was possible.

I was also amazed that a 1 lbs jar of Really Raw fermented honey (it's honey, not mead) didn't give me chapped lips, dry skin and dandruff but instead I experienced improvement in all these areas after eating it and even experienced some euphoria. I even tried to intentionally produce my usual negative symptoms of over-consumption of raw honey by eating as much of it as I could. Instead of getting negative symptoms I only got positive ones. I also got a stronger stop with this honey than most other honeys, and it wasn't an unpleasant nauseous feeling like I get with some honeys. I just couldn't eat another bite.

These fermented honey results are quite puzzling and I'm tempted to write this off to coincidence as I can't explain it. They were particularly puzzling given that the honey spiked my BG to 234 mg/dl--higher than I've ever measured from honey before. I've ordered some more, along with the regular Really Raw honey, and am curious to see what further results will be. Has anyone else tried raw fermented honey?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Josh on March 06, 2011, 08:15:29 pm
You could try eating the same amount of normal honey now to test it if you're feeling brave.

Maybe you've healed enough to be able to tolerate it?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 06, 2011, 09:44:36 pm
Yes, I did that with centrifuged honey and got the same old negative symptoms, although seemingly milder than in the past. Next I will test regular Really Raw honey vs. fermented Really Raw honey to see whether it's the fermentation or the honey itself, or just a one-time fluke.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 12, 2011, 07:21:40 am
Had some more decent benefits from Really Raw brand raw fermented honey and the fermented aspect appears to be the key, as their unfermented honey didn't provide the benefits. The biggest benefit appears to be dramatic rapid reduction in dry/flaky skin on my scalp.

I saw a lecture on osteoporosis today at work. When the physician doing the lecture talked about sardines being good for calcium the mostly female audience emitted "ews" and groans of disgust. Then when he mentioned that the sardines should be bone-in they "ewws" were doubly-loud and doubly-long. Later he mentioned that cod liver was good for vitamin D and there were more "ewws". It's seriously lame how many Americans are disgusted by a large number of foods that much of the rest of the world recognizes as super healthy and delicious (especially raw-fresh or raw-fermented, of course).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Max on March 13, 2011, 01:11:04 am
Hello PaleoPhil,

I just finished reading all of your journal, and I wanted to say, keep up the good work!  Your journal is very informative and you are good at stating the facts and how food effects you in a very scientific manner.

I might have to order some of that fermented raw honey.  (sounds delicious!)

I am looking forward to the continuation of your journal.  :)

-Max
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 13, 2011, 03:09:07 am
Thanks, Max. The fermented honey has a bit of fermented smell and taste so that it doesn't taste quite as good to me as other honeys, but still tastes quite delicious and like all naturally fermented foods, I seem to like it more the more I eat it. I'm used to eating high meat, stink fish, unflavored raw fermented cod liver oil (talk about stink fish--phew! it was quite strong-smelling and tasting to me at first, but now I'm nearly used to it) and sauerkraut, so it probably tastes less good to modern food eaters than it does to me. I can eat as much as I like of it without getting any nausea, dry skin or chapped lips (and it actually appears to clear up any pre-existing dry skin or chapped lips within a few days). Also, the more I eat of it, the more of a euphoric effect I get. I was tempted not to share my wonderful results because Really Raw is already short of fermented honey stock, but felt I owed it to the folks here who have provided me with helpful info, such as Brady, who kept my interest in experimenting with honey going. I hope that more honey makers will make fermented raw honey.

My best guess is that I have candidiasis, because reducing my carb intake greatly reduced the dryness of my skin & scalp and candida supposedly feeds off certain carbs, plus raw fermented honey rapidly gets rid of residual dryness, suggesting that it may be killing off candida fungus (which raw honey reportedly can do). Raw fermented honey is supposed to contain a higher level of lacto and bifido bacteria than unfermented raw honey, so maybe these bacteria help to kill off fungi? On the other hand, so many folks jump to the conclusion that they have candidiasis that I was reluctant to even speculate about it, but it's the only explanation I can come up with so far.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Max on March 14, 2011, 03:17:52 am
I also have symptoms that include chapped lips, dry skin and dandruff.  I have found a local source of raw honey so I think I will try that first and then buy some fermented raw honey, and see how they compare for me.

Question:  Has the fermented raw honey helped with any of your digestive problems?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 14, 2011, 06:46:39 am
The raw fermented and raw fermented cod liver oil seem to help me digest carbs better, but it's hard to tell. When I eat these foods I don't notice negative symptoms from berries, so I've been eating more blackberries, which I love.

Fermented raw honey is still acidic like all honeys, so if I eat too much I do still get some belching, but less than with regular raw honey and no other negative symptoms with it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 18, 2011, 04:57:08 am
I'm just posting my thoughts here for possible future further exploration. I don't want to spend the time researching it and providing supporting sources right now, sorry...

Paleo dieters argue incessantly over whether wild animals are lean or fatty. Those who say they're lean point to the fact that there is much less intramuscular fat in wild and grassfed animals (and I've witnessed this myself in every cut of meat and hunted kill I've ever seen) and there are lean seasons where even the fat depots are diminished. Those who say they're fatty focus on the fat depots, the fat levels during the fattiest times of the year when hunting would have been focused on, and the fact that all observed hunter gatherer societies preferred fat depots and fattier cuts like tongue to lean cuts and to the evidence that Stone Agers discarded lean portions of animals, perhaps during lean seasons (so as to get enough fat and/or avoid overdoing it on lean--there is some evidence that they tried to get 60% of calories as fat when possible).

There is truth on both sides. There are also unsupported extrapolations on both sides. The lean meat advocates appear to tend to assume that Stone Agers always or nearly always used the whole animal and didn't discard any of the lean. The evidence I've seen doesn't support this. The fatty meat advocates appear to tend to assume that if wild/pastured fat depots are healthy then intramuscular fat must also be healthy too. I have seen that muscle meat from feedlot animals is riddled with intramuscular fat and the suet depots are riddled with connective tissue and other gunk I can't even identify. The meat and fat of wild animals, which humans consumed for millions of years, does not have these characteristics. Introducing feedlot meat/fat into the human diet is a recent innovation and the burden of proof lies with those who claim it's just as healthy. We will probably never fully understand all the changes that feedlot feeding combined with generations of selection for neotenized animals has on the animals and on those humans who consume them, so that may be an impossible task. Some may decide that the added unknown risk is likely too small to discourage them from eating feedlot meats and fats, and that's their choice.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on March 19, 2011, 06:08:17 am
How have your experiments with salt gone PaleoPhil? Do you still use it?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 19, 2011, 07:38:53 am
Sometimes. Not as much as I was for a while. I mainly use salt and pepper when I want to eat more or faster. Raw fermented honey also can serve the same purpose. I don't notice anything else in particular from salt other than its ability to spur the appetite and the fact that it can cause indigestion and mild nausea if I eat too much or a food has too high a level of salt.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on March 19, 2011, 09:23:07 am
What types of salt have you tried?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 19, 2011, 10:16:13 am
French (Celtic) and American sea salt, kelp granules and Also Salt potassium chloride.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alycia on April 09, 2011, 10:37:00 am
 :) I am so happy i just saw you have a journal!  I have read a couple of (pages 40-44) also read about eggs in your post on "best paleo for bowel health".  I am not sure how you eat your eggs?  i am sure uncooked but do you just eat the whole raw egg alone or do you consume it with other food to get better results?
thanks  :)
alycia
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 09, 2011, 11:00:20 am
Howdy Alycia, I eat the raw eggs a few different ways:

1: usually just crack the shell and dump them into a big measuring cup or mug; usually discard the whites of one or more of the eggs--I don't like wasting, but I'm not thrilled by raw whites and I find I like them less over time, whereas most healthy foods I like more over time
2: sometimes I poke a hole in an eggshell and suck the egg out; I find it a somewhat inefficient method, but it saves dirtying a dish and it's a change of pace; sometimes I poke a hole in the shell and if it cracks I pull off a piece, which makes it easier to guzzle down
3: steak tartare - a yolk or two mixed with ground beef
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Löwenherz on April 09, 2011, 05:14:50 pm
Paleo dieters argue incessantly over whether wild animals are lean or fatty. Those who say they're lean point to the fact that there is much less intramuscular fat in wild and grassfed animals (and I've witnessed this myself in every cut of meat and hunted kill I've ever seen) and there are lean seasons where even the fat depots are diminished.

This is indeed one of the most interesting questions in the whole paleo sphere, IMO.

Most wild animals are very lean and their meat never shows intramuscular fat. This high levels of intramuscular fat is something very new in our history of nutrtion and the question is if this fat can be healthy for us. I'm still skeptical. Fat is not fat. The differences can be huge. There are not many studies about intramuscular fats in meat. Loren Cordain once was convinced that this fat is extremely unhealthy. I don't know if this is still his opinion today.

BTW: Domesticated 100% grassfed ruminants can have huge (!) amounts of intramuscular fat! It all depends on the breed. For example: Some cuts of 100% grassfed Galloway are overloaded with intramuscular fat. The myth that grassfeeding means lean meat is repeated again and again. The breed is determining the fat distribution.

Let's think about a raw paleo vlc diet based on 100% wild meats. Here in Germany I would be totally dependent on wild boar. All other available wild animals don't deliver considerable amounts of fat, even wild ducks and pheasants I get from hunters are usually super lean. Wild boar would be the only source of animal fat beside seals at the coast (which are not allowed to hunt). Therefore it would be very interesting to analyse an Aurochs. Exactly this animal was hunted to extinction. Was it much fatter than deer and venison? But we can be very sure that there was only very little intramuscular fat in meat cuts.

How much fat has a real wild bison? Does anybody here know? Unfortunately wild bison is not available in Europe. Is the hump on the back full of edible fat?

Löwenherz
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on April 09, 2011, 07:38:17 pm
How much fat has a real wild bison? Does anybody here know? Unfortunately wild bison is not available in Europe. Is the hump on the back full of edible fat?

There is wild Bison in europe, it's called Wisent.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Löwenherz on April 09, 2011, 09:43:37 pm
There is wild Bison in europe, it's called Wisent.

Yes, of course, I know that wisent is the european equivalent to us bison. Nevertheless meat of wild Wisents is not available in europe as far as I know. There are simply no really wild wisents left, with the exception of Bialowiska in Poland. But even there you can't meat from really wild Wisent. I have seen a report about a small population that is used for meat production, but these animals are kept on small, fenced grasslands and are fed grains.

Do you know any sources of wild wisent meat?

Löwenherz
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 10, 2011, 03:27:53 am
BTW: Domesticated 100% grassfed ruminants can have huge (!) amounts of intramuscular fat! It all depends on the breed. For example: Some cuts of 100% grassfed Galloway are overloaded with intramuscular fat. The myth that grassfeeding means lean meat is repeated again and again. The breed is determining the fat distribution.
I don't know whether this is in response to what I wrote or not, but just to clarify what I meant, I meant grainfed vs. grassfed for the same breed of animal--in other words, all other things than the feed being equal. So, for example, a grassfed Galloway would probably have less intramuscular fat than a grainfed Galloway, though I haven't seen the meat of this breed myself. Have you seen the meat of grainfed vs. grassfed Galloway? It would be interesting to know how much difference there is and to see images of both, plus compare those to the meat of say wild water buffalo and grassfed and grainfed domesticated American bison.

What the ZIOH ZCers tend to ignore is that the wild animals of the Stone Age and today store most of their fat in depots rather than intramuscularly, yet the ZCers tend to not eat much of the fat depot fat and they claim that grainfed intramuscular fat is just as healthy, which seems like speculation. Even if there are studies on it, it's likely that we don't know all the differences. Nature is complex.

Another interesting tidbit is that today's obese moderners tend to have high levels of intramuscular fat, just like grainfed animals, and it's recognized as unhealthy in humans. So if humans with high levels of intramuscular fat are essentially sick, then it's also likely that fat grainfed animals are too. It seems like it would be healthier to eat healthy animals than to eat sick ones, though wild predators do like to eat sick wild animals (though that's not the same thing as sick domesticated animals), so it's a complex issue.

Another aspect of this is that any time that we humans muck around with nature we tend to screw things up in ways that we're often not even aware of for a long time. My bias is to not muck around with nature, as I don't consider myself smarter than nature or nature's God. That doesn't mean I believe in utopian notions of nature at the other extreme either, however, like the vegan myth of an original utopian tropical nonviolent lush-sugary-fruit-filled paradise.

Quote
Therefore it would be very interesting to analyse an Aurochs. Exactly this animal was hunted to extinction. Was it much fatter than deer and venison? But we can be very sure that there was only very little intramuscular fat in meat cuts.
Likely so on both those questions, but it would indeed be interesting to have live aurochs to analyze. Some are trying to re-breed them back into existence, but they will never be precisely the same as the originals, of course.

Ray Audette has written about the subject of levels of fat in Stone Age and wild animals and in traditional animal-food-rich diets over at the Paleofood archives (http://listserv.icors.org/ARCHIVES/PALEOFOOD.HTML).

Here are some examples:

Quote
Subject: Re: Paleo vs. Neanderthin
From: Ray Audette
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:26:19 -0600

To interpret what humans ate during Paleolithic times it is necessary to
understand the Pleistocene:

As Loren Cordain has pointed out, the primary game species of the
Pleistocene contined much more fat than even those domestic animals who have
been bred to express their Pleistocene DNA origins and store extra fat.
That the majority of large Pleistocene animals are extinct ( 60% of all
large mammal and bird species) makes it difficult to imagine the fat
available to those who inhabited their range.

This huge grassland covered a much larger portion of the earth than do the
dry grasslands of today.  Studies of pollen sediments indicate that trees
and woody stemed vegetables were much rarer than they are today and grew
much slower due to the lower concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere
 according to glacier gas studies) .  Lush grasslands covered most of the
Earth now dominated by forrests.

Even in the dry grasslands of today the traditional people such as Plains
Indians, Tutsis and Mogols consume a diet that is far higher in fat than
even I consume.  In such places edible vegetables are rare and fruit trees
don't grow at all.  In such conditions one must consume at least 60% of
calories as fat to survive.  Stefansson also found these conditions in the
Arctic even though the Tundra is of too high a latitude to support abundant
grasses.  At lower latitude and CO2 levels even the berries that constitute
the entire Inuit vegatable food would be even more scarce and replaced by
grasses.  These lush grasslands would support far more high fat animals than
all the domestic animals that we produce today and we were evolved to
utalize this bounty.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"


Subject: Re: Vitamin Philosophy (Re: Vitamin B12 experiences
From: Ray Audette
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:37:35 -0500

From: Amadeus Schmidt >
> ... I suppose that ice age animals *were* more fatty in northern
regions.

Do you mean like Texas (which was the home to many species of Pleistocene Megafauna) or southern Asia (likewise). Durring that time the weather in Texas was very similar to today in the summer (but with more rain).  Winter was brutal but very brief.

> Do *you* have any information of the fat of a
> horse, mammouth, sabbertooth tiger?

Cordain recently published an article showing how the megafauna were very high in fat.  He speculated that paleo man needed no vegetable suplementation as this fat represented over 60% of calories in these animals allowing most of it to be eaten without protein poisoning ( rabbit starvation).

> For this, the animals of an african savannah should be more
representative,
> and this represents the main timeframe of paleolithicum.

The steppe-tundra of the Pleistocene was far larger than the tropical savannahs of the time and contained far more animals.  Tropical regions shrunk as the temperate regions with their megafauna moved southward. Megafauna comprised over 60% of all large mammal species and far outnumbered any other species of the time.

Homo Sapiens are also Pleistocene Megafauna appearing only when the ice ages began about two million years ago to exploit the new game rich enviroment. During the warm interglacials ( about 10,000 years every 100,000 years) humans suffered as their hunting territories moved north to lattitudes where winters were less severe but considerably longer.

During the last mini-iceage (100-1400 AD), vikings living on Iceland had no vegetable foods at all and were granted a dispensation from the Pope to use dried fish as communion host.  From their remains it has been determined that they were far healthier during this time than before or since.


Subject: Re: beef
From: Ray Audette
Reply-To: Paleolithic Eating Support List <PALEOFOOD@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:26:13 -0700

Brian Glass wrote:
>but resorted to picking on beef.
> I have been unable to find any research that proves this to be wrong.
> Does anyone else know of any studies that do?
>  See Am. Heart Journal, April '62 for an article "Cardiovascular Studies
in the Samburu Tribe of Northern Kenya".  This tribe eats almost nothing
but meat and milk of cows.  Their average fat consumption was 60% of
calories!

It was found that they had very low cholesterol that it actually went
down with age. No heart disease was found.

Other later studies confirmed these results of an all beef diet in other
Tutsi tribes.

I think "Mogols" is a typo meant to be "Mongols." To balance out Ray's pro-meat bias a little, there are berries on the Mongol steppes and apple trees in the mountains in Western Mongolia, and I've seen a movie in which Chinggis Khaan eats berries. However, Ray does appear to be essentially correct that fruits do not play a big role in the Mongol diet.

Quote
Is the hump on the back full of edible fat?
Yes, someone reported here that the back fat of American bison tastes excellent.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on April 11, 2011, 08:44:01 pm
What the ZIOH ZCers tend to ignore is that the wild animals of the Stone Age and today store most of their fat in depots rather than intramuscularly, yet the ZCers tend to not eat much of the fat depot fat and they claim that grainfed intramuscular fat is just as healthy, which seems like speculation. Even if there are studies on it, it's likely that we don't know all the differences. Nature is complex.

ZIOH is an embarrassment to me, a paleo, whole animal ZCer. In fact, I will refer to them as FZC, for frankenfood ZC.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 12, 2011, 05:04:16 am
Hi Katelyn,
It's unfortunate. There are some cool folks there still, though (AFAIK), like Del Fuego and his cute family. As long as at least one cool person remains, I will try not to give them all a negative label. It only takes one person (or black swan) to disprove a stereotype. I didn't even have any significant problems with CW, though I'm not into his way of eating or running a forum. To each their own.

I know you wouldn't approve, but I find I seem to tolerate raw fermented honey better than most fruits or cooked tubers for some reason and it even improves my skin. Rather surprising given how sensitive I am to other carbs. Apparently, it really does matter significantly what the specific form of the carb is and how it's processed. I can't overdo it, however, or it causes a buildup of gunk in my teeth, but interestingly, less so than unfermented raw honey. Also interestingly, Aajonus Vonderplanitz warns against eating too much fruit but is big on hand-packed raw honey, which nearly matches my experience (though I think he eats a lot more honey than I do and I don't think he eats it in a fermented form).

BTW, what's the brand of tanning product you use? Is it natural? It gives a natural appearance.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Löwenherz on April 14, 2011, 04:10:55 am
I don't know whether this is in response to what I wrote or not, but just to clarify what I meant, I meant grainfed vs. grassfed for the same breed of animal--in other words, all other things than the feed being equal. So, for example, a grassfed Galloway would probably have less intramuscular fat than a grainfed Galloway, though I haven't seen the meat of this breed myself. Have you seen the meat of grainfed vs. grassfed Galloway? It would be interesting to know how much difference there is and to see images of both, plus compare those to the meat of say wild water buffalo and grassfed and grainfed domesticated American bison.

Ok, yes, you are right. 100% grass-fed Galloway is very fat. Grain-fed Galloway is even fatter! But the fat of the latter tastes disgusting. And I got very sick from it.

What the ZIOH ZCers tend to ignore is that the wild animals of the Stone Age and today store most of their fat in depots rather than intramuscularly, yet the ZCers tend to not eat much of the fat depot fat and they claim that grainfed intramuscular fat is just as healthy, which seems like speculation. Even if there are studies on it, it's likely that we don't know all the differences. Nature is complex.


Absolutely! Very interesting question. There is still not much information available.

Do you know what kind of diet is Ray Audette following nowadays? I have read his book many years ago. At that time he was recommending nuts for 'healthy' fats etc., if I remember correctly.

Löwenherz
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Löwenherz on April 14, 2011, 04:16:04 am
ZIOH is an embarrassment to me, a paleo, whole animal ZCer. In fact, I will refer to them as FZC, for frankenfood ZC.

Didn't you recommend grain-fed meat and organs recently?

Klowcarb, how can you be sure about grain-fed meat? I guess that you are on zc only a few years, right? So, no long-term experience... And in the case of toxins the effects usually become visible only after many years.

Löwenherz
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on April 15, 2011, 01:43:42 am
Didn't you recommend grain-fed meat and organs recently?

Klowcarb, how can you be sure about grain-fed meat? I guess that you are on zc only a few years, right? So, no long-term experience... And in the case of toxins the effects usually become visible only after many years.

Löwenherz


ZIOH ZC is not grainfed meat and organs.  It is ENTIRELY grainfed meat, Wal-Mart meat, tons of processed and well-done meat, and organs are shunned. I was suggesting having grainfed organs over NO organs. I eat grassfed beef, but I'm not going out of my way to find grassfed organs if they are not available. I eat tons of eggs, so while I buy good eggs, no way am I paying for pastured eggs because I eat as many as 4-12 a day and that would not be money well spent. I go for nutrient density over fears of something not being pastured or grassfed entirely.

You, Lowenherz, are ASSUMING that any grainfed meat has toxins in it. That is unfounded.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on April 15, 2011, 01:48:41 am
Phil, all the cool people have left ZIOH. Who is left, really? I sometimes read over there and laugh. All they talk about is dead pemmican, Wal-Mart chuck rolls and how awful offal is :).  I am so glad I left. If you think Del Fuego is cool for feeding his kids only dehydrated meat and making sure they never socialize with other children, I'm scared  :D.

I wish I could trap you, Phil, and get you over your obsession with "needing" something other than animal foods. You are never satisfied. You admit that you feel best eating animal foods only, yet you keep experimenting with fruit, vegetables, tubers, honey. Ask yourself why? You saw my pictures, right? You see that I can build muscle while being effortlessly lean (15% for a woman--that is in the LOW END of the ATHLETIC range!) on a highly nutrient dense ZC WOE. I am so happy eating this way. I never yearn for honey or fruit...why? They make me hungry, and just have sugar with maybe a trace amount of Vitamin C or potassium. Not worth it IMO. And since you don't need to eat multiple times a day like SAD eaters, you can socialize without eating. Very easy. I don't understand your not being satisfied.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Löwenherz on April 15, 2011, 02:03:29 am
You, Lowenherz, are ASSUMING that any grainfed meat has toxins in it. That is unfounded.

I said that grainfed meat CAN be VERY unhealthy.

It's very naive to believe that humans can thrive long-term on meats from diseased animals.

And BTW: I got really sick from grainfed meat and needed years to recover from all the serious inflammations in my GI tract. I never got problems from 100% grassfed meat.

Best wishes

Löwenherz
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on April 15, 2011, 03:45:25 am
I'm sorry you got so sick. But I would still pick a grainfed RUMINANT steak, probably lean, and supplement with grassfed butter or coconut oil if I did not have access to grassfed meat. I would do this over not eating meat at all--really stupid--or eating a bunch of fruit and vegetables.

You also assume grainfed = diseased. I do not buy your premise.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 15, 2011, 07:06:15 am
If you think Del Fuego is cool for feeding his kids only dehydrated meat and making sure they never socialize with other children, I'm scared  :D.
:o When I was reading that forum he posted about eating organs and other stuff on occasion. Is he back to eating just pemmican? I didn't know he doesn't let his kids socialize. Why does he do that, do you know? I guess it's his kids that are most remarkable, really. They have cute chubby cheeks and big smiles and always seem happy and silly. Some of the happiest kids I've ever seen, actually, along with my Paleo nephews. I do wonder whether they're getting enough nutrients for the long term, especially if they're never eating organs.

Quote
I wish I could trap you, Phil, and get you over your obsession with "needing" something other than animal foods.
Huh? You don't like Del Fuego's eating just pemmican and yet you also don't like that I've added back some other foods I found I can handle? I agree that pemmican or raw meat and fat alone is not enough in the long run, which is one reason why I've worked on finding what other foods I can add to the foundation of meat and fat, starting with eggs and organs early on after I had been on the meat/fat base elimination diet for a few months and my improvements plateaued. Ironically, all the folks I know in the real world who know what I eat think I should add more foods, not subtract some.

Quote
You are never satisfied.
I can't prove a negative, so I won't bother.

Quote
You admit that you feel best eating animal foods only
Yeah, the key word is "feel." I get the best euphoria when I eat raw meat and lots of raw fat, but too much of the meat worsens my chronic C and I tend to lose weight, which were additional incentives to see what other foods I could add, and so far it has helped. Hooray! Interestingly, IIRC, Matt Stone reported that he experienced the euphoria too, but also experienced underweight and other problems until he started adding other foods back. KGH also reported that he didn't have the energy to do hard manual work until he added some carbs. Tyler and plenty of other folks have reported similar things. Unlike the LC haters, I do also recognize that some people have done great with little or no carb intake and I don't find it to be a necessity to eat plants and honey for the carbs, they just happen to be softer and easier to digest than meats and fish. And like Lex I'm not wedded to any single way of doing things, so if things don't go well I adjust as necessary. I don't understand why I should see things as some sort of war between LC and higher carb.

Quote
You saw my pictures, right? You see that I can build muscle while being effortlessly lean (15% for a woman--that is in the LOW END of the ATHLETIC range!) on a highly nutrient dense ZC WOE. I am so happy eating this way.
Yeah, congrats again! I'm so happy for you. You really showed those ZIOH folks that you could succeed without their psychoanalyzing.

Quote
I never yearn for honey or fruit...why? They make me hungry,
That's one reason I eat them--they improve my appetite and enable me to eat more to keep my weight up. I agree that folks who are trying to lose body fat would be wise to be careful with those foods. After all, they are used by bears to put on body fat during the summer and early fall as preparation for the winter hibernation.

Quote
I don't understand your not being satisfied.
I'm just finding what works for me. The ZC/VLCers think I eat too much plant foods and carbs and the tropical fruit utopians think I eat too little. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, so I don't bother trying to please others and was never big on seeking others' approval anyway. I'm more of a maverick free thinker.

It's good to have near-ZCers like you and Lex PLUS carb promoters like Tyler and others here at the same forum so I can get input and feedback from both sides. When one only gets one side of the story, it can be misleading.

BTW, don't you find it fascinating that someone like me who has such problems with most carbs actually gets benefits from raw fermented honey and isn't it an interesting coincidence that honeycomb/grubcomb is the favorite food of hunter-gatherers who have access to it and that studies of honey have shown it to be paradoxically healthy, rather than harmful like refined sugars, puzzling the scientists? I wonder what would account for raw fermented honey benefiting me, when cooked tubers and many fruits give me problems, whereas other folks say they benefit from cooked tubers? I'm of Irish heritage and I had read about HGs eating cooked tubers, so when I learned that most Paleo dieters didn't consider them Paleo I was surprised, but I gave elimination of them a try and did experience benefits and adding back occasional cooked tubers didn't go that great--though, interestingly, I haven't noticed any problems from raw soaked sweet potatoes yet (though that could theoretically just be that I don't digest them well enough for them to have a significant negative effect, so that they just pass through me). Do you think the problem is mainly the cooking, like Tyler would probably say?

Do you think it would make sense for honey, the favorite natural food of humans (which HG's and even chimps gather with amazing ease and alacrity and appear astoundingly impervious to the stings they get, BTW) to be poison? Nature is interestingly mysterious at times. "She" seems to enjoy derailing scientists' theories at nearly every turn. It would seem that in my case the "it's all about carbs" and "all sugars are the same" mantras may not hold, as well as the "artery-clogging saturated fast" mantra. I find it hard to believe that reasonable quantities of raw honey or raw saturated animal fat would be seriously harmful to most reasonably healthy humans, despite the scientific consensus believing them to be so. Of course, if they give me problems, I will adjust as necessary.

Thanks for the post, you rarely fail to give me a chuckle or at least a smile, which I appreciate.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on April 15, 2011, 07:53:15 am
Thanks for the post, you rarely fail to give me a chuckle or at least a smile, which I appreciate.


You know I loooooooove you, Phil  :-* :-* :-*. I just felt that your earlier posts read like, "I feel best eating X, but I want to try Y, Z, A, B" and they kept failing. I didn't see why you kept seeking. I'm glad you are eating mostly animal fats and proteins, and if the small amount of honey works to increase your appetite so you do not lose too much weight, I am happy. Has it helped with the constipation? I know that was one issue that you could not resolve.

Thanks for the sweet compliments, my friend!  :-* :-*
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 15, 2011, 09:11:10 am
It's not so much one thing that helps with the constipation it seems as keeping the overall diet soft and easy to digest. If I eat too much meat I get more constipated, whereas raw eggs, avocado, raw fermented honey, bone marrow, lard and berries seem to be sufficiently soft, easy to digest and fatty to promote good bowels and sufficiently tasty and calorie dense to keep the weight up. I try not to overdo it on the carbs, though, to minimize dental issues and keep more of that level of well being. It's a balancing act. Interestingly, since eating the raw fermented honey I seem to be handling carbs better, and I already had experienced some small improvement in handling carbs since trying raw ZC--almost the opposite of what a lot of folks apparently experience--and finding the carbs that give me the least problems. I think it may be because I'm experiencing some sort of healing, plus maybe antifungal and probiotic effects? I can only guess.

By funny coincidence, my best friend was telling me again tonight that I should eat MORE fruits, not less, and she was appalled when I told her that you were encouraging me to eat less of them. I get it from both sides. ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Löwenherz on April 15, 2011, 09:59:21 pm
...But I would still pick a grainfed RUMINANT steak, probably lean, and supplement with grassfed butter or coconut oil if I did not have access to grassfed meat.

Agreed. That would be the second best option.

The fat from grainfed animals is the most critical part...

Löwenherz
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on April 16, 2011, 02:01:30 am
I find I go more regularly with more salt in my diet. It has the plus that as an athlete I need more salt, and it is good for adrenals. I only eat one meal a day, so I add a lot of salt to it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 16, 2011, 05:59:51 am
Ah, you're a fine lass, Katelyn. Thanks for reminding me that I haven't been eating added salt lately. This is the sort of thing that forums are useful for and make them worth putting up with the criticisms, insults, false assumptions, straw men and dogma so common in most diet/health forums (no reflection on your posts which I know are always well intentioned and quite welcome). I was found to have low urinary sodium level and a chiropractor diagnosed me as having adrenal fatigue, though it is a non-clinical diagnosis. I also have a tendency towards unusually low blood pressure--especially in my youth, which is another potential sign of salt deficiency and adrenal fatigue/insufficiency. Plus, I used to love salt in my youth and add it to already salty foods and my grandfather used to do the same, pouring salt onto most of his foods and we both looked like JFK in his skinny youth before he started taking cortisone and filled out as a result (JFK had clinical Addison's disease). Plus, you're right that salt can help with constipation. Salt can also help with digestion by creating HCL. It's so rare to see anyone recommend salt that I tend to forget about it.

BTW, in case anyone cares, I'm not seeking perfection, just hoping to resolve health abnormalities. I'm not looking to become a bronzed Adonis or any such nonsense. For one thing, with my genetics, achieving Adonishood is extremely unrealistic. Nearly-normal would be fine with me. Not that saying this would necessarily convince anyone who has preconceived notions about me stuck in their brain, but I suppose not clarifying this might lead to others getting false impressions.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: alycia on April 16, 2011, 10:39:18 pm
If I eat too much meat I get more constipated, whereas raw eggs, avocado, raw fermented honey, bone marrow, lard and berries seem to be sufficiently soft, easy to digest and fatty to promote good bowels..... plus maybe antifungal and probiotic effects?


HI Phil, I am really enjoying reading 50+ pages of your journal  :o
It's a lot to take in  ;D but it is so helpful to a newbie!!!

I have not seen yet if you say just "how much" fat you need to eat with the meat to avoid the Big C?  I just don't get percentages, i go by metric system.  Maybe you can help me by saying just how much fat in TSP or TBLS one may want to have with 4 oz of meat? 

Also you got me curious what "probitic" you are taking and if you notice a difference  :)

BTW - I know we all have different bod's and what works well for you may not for someone else but i know we have this one thing in common so  ;) 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 17, 2011, 01:54:35 am
I haven't measured in a while, but I try to eat a lot of fat with any of the ground meats I eat. When I eat raw fish or organs I tend to eat less fat with it. Avocados also contain fat.

The probiotics I consume include raw fermented honey, raw fermented carrots with ginger, raw fermented cod liver oil, raw fermented meat (high meat) and raw fermented fish (stink fish). I don't know if the probiotic effects are doing much. The only thing obvious I've noticed is decrease in dry, flaky skin on scalp, eyebrows and forehead after eating the raw fermented honey and mildly improved dental health with the raw fermented cod liver oil.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 09, 2011, 10:57:00 am
A note: when someone asked me how much raw fermented honey I could eat at one time without major problems, I said unlimited, but I couldn't do that every day, so I wanted to clear that up. Lots of centrifuged honey consumed at one sitting usually makes my lips chap significantly, though not as bad as fully heated honey or lots of certain fruits. Lots of raw fermented honey can make my lips chap a little bit, but it rubs right off and doesn't leave a raw, sore or cracked underlayer like other carbs do. However, I still can't overdo it, as eating lots of raw fermented honey every day gives me dental problems, just less than other carbs, and too many big BG spikes is probably not good, though now and then may be OK, though I'm not certain.

The end result of modern society is converting more and more organic matter into human flesh and toxic waste, which we call "creating wealth" and "progress". Vegetarianism and veganism don't necessarily change that paradigm, despite their being linked to the green movement. Hunter-gatherers were the last people to live an organic lifestyle that produced only bio-degradable end products and didn't promote massive population growth. It's puzzling to me that vegetarianism/veganism have been connected with the green movement instead of the lifestyle of the last mostly-sustainable way of life (the one major downside was that they did kill off lots of megafauna).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 10, 2011, 08:03:19 am
Water intake seems to have almost no effect for me on skin/scalp/lip dryness and constipation, for some reason. I know, it makes no sense. I can consume huge quantities of water and most starches and fruits still dry me up. I try to remember to consume salt, though I've never noticed anything from it--at least not yet.
 
There are some carbs that I don't seem to get as much drying and chapping from: parsnips, carrots, raw fermented honey (if I eat a lot of it I get just a very light later of chapping on my lips which easily wipes away and reveals a healthy underlayer, and the dryness on my scalp actually decreases), small berries. Man do I love raw organic parsnips, and I've eaten 4 or 5 of them at one sitting without any problems of any sort, and my digestion of them is improving further. 2 or 3 used to cause my stomach to feel like it was full of them--now I can eat more.
 
The longer I eat nutrient-dense raw Paleo, it seems the better my tolerance of other fruits becomes, but apparently not of cooked grains and tubers. I tried eating more pineapple chunks today than I have in a long time, and so far no problems. Hurrah!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 11, 2011, 06:02:10 am
I did get some lip chapping last night after eating pineapple earlier in the day, but I didn't get the stomach upset I normally do, so maybe my stomach health is improving or it could be just a coincidence.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 03, 2011, 09:52:59 am
Borrowing from Bill Maher...new rule for cyberspace: if someone ends their argument with "case closed" or "check and mate" or the equivalent, they automatically lose the debate.

A humorous example of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P47OC439x88

For now I'll call it the "Self-Proclaimed Victory Rule."
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Tsurugi_Oni on June 04, 2011, 09:27:30 am
Phil =D!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Amris on June 05, 2011, 05:17:21 am
I did get some lip chapping last night after eating pineapple earlier in the day, but I didn't get the stomach upset I normally do, so maybe my stomach health is improving or it could be just a coincidence.

For the dry skin, have you tried the whole "no soap" thing? I'm curious if anyone else had tried it, lol.

Do you only eat fermented honey, not just raw honey?

As for your video, I'll just pass it up, lol. Controversy calls...  :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 05, 2011, 08:46:28 am
Phil =D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
Well if it isn't the brotha' from anotha' mutha'. Welcome Tsurugi!

For the dry skin, have you tried the whole "no soap" thing? I'm curious if anyone else had tried it, lol.
Em, no. I have a much easier and more pleasant solution: I won't eat too much pineapple or other fruits.

Quote
Do you only eat fermented honey, not just raw honey?
Yes, I find that raw fermented honey treats me better than ordinary raw honey, for whatever reason. It's really bizarre that fruits and centrifuged "raw" honey dry out my skin, whereas the Really Raw brand of non-centrifuged raw fermented honey helps clear up my dry skin and scalp, though it can cause a very mild lip chapping if I eat too much. This violates nearly every dietary dogma out there. I love that about it. LOL

Quote
As for your video, I'll just pass it up, lol. Controversy calls...  :D
LOL, yeah, it's too bad the subject is a controversial one. It would be funny with any subject, wish I knew of a less controversial example.

I've been noticing less reaction from mosquito bites in recent years. I used to get big raised welts and itchiness from them. Today a couple of mosquitoes bit me and I paid close attention to the location of the bite sites. Sure enough, there was no swelling or itching whatsoever.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Amris on June 05, 2011, 11:08:13 am
Interesting. My daughter gets HUGE welts from them.

I have no idea how I'll get her into this. So far, she's resistant to it, and she's only 4.  -[
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 05, 2011, 11:26:01 am
Most of the improvement with mosquito bites occurred before I went raw, so I doubt she has to eat all raw to achieve it. All she has to do is calm down her immune system. A standard cooked Paleo diet might achieve that, especially if it's rich in immune-calming foods like animal fats from slow and low cooked pastured meats and wild fish and eggs sunny-side up, and maybe you might eventually persuade her to try some raw animal foods like sashimi.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 12, 2011, 08:46:10 pm
I tried a product that was on sale in my local healthfood market--VitaCoco coconut water with juice mixes. I found I could drink more of this than straight coconut water before becoming nauseous, but I still did become nauseous after I drank about 20 oz. I don't care for the taste much either.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: eveheart on June 13, 2011, 12:25:25 am
Another brand is O.N.E. Coconut Water. Juices like that have to be flash pasteurized, to kill microorganisms. I don't know how alive the juice is after that process, so I avoid it unless there is nothing else around.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 13, 2011, 02:42:09 am
That's fine, it was just an experiment to see if the sugar of the other juices would enable me to drink coconut water without nausea as a possible electrolyte/energy drink alternative for my father instead of his usual molasses/juice drink and as a possible occasional electrolyte drink for myself after intensive exercise and also to see if anything would enable me to consume coconut fat without nausea and distaste. It helped a little, but not enough to bother with it, so I don't have any current plans to drink significantly more juice of coconut or other fruits or consume coconut fat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 13, 2011, 07:02:15 pm
Local Wildcat Produce Vermont organic strawberries are...

smaller
darker in color (deep red)
softer
juicier
and slightly more flavorful

...than Driscoll's California conventional strawberries, which are...

larger
lighter in color
tougher
drier
blander
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: p0wer on June 13, 2011, 08:13:23 pm
Nothing beats wild strawberries. These are tiny (equal or smaller than blueberries for example), but much more delicious than any modern varieties. Very hard to gather a significant amount though, since they are so small.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: eveheart on June 14, 2011, 02:26:33 am
Commercial California strawberry varieties are bred for large size and firmness (a good packaging quality). They don't even have to taste or smell like strawberries, as long as they look good and don't get squished in transit.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 19, 2011, 08:09:05 am
My parents had been staying with me and as a result I had been eating more fruits and veg than usual and even some sweet potato and one of my teeth started to loosen. When my parents left I continued eating more fruit and honey than usual but the tooth loosened enough that it became concerning, so I cut out almost all fruits and honey and increased intake of organs, egg yolks, cod liver oil, meats, fish, etc. and within just a few days my tooth tightened up again. Amazing. It must have been an issue with the softer tissues like the gums and connective tissue rather than bone because I don't think bone would change that rapidly.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Ioanna on June 20, 2011, 01:42:16 am
that's interesting.  so you're not eating fermented honey anymore?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 20, 2011, 02:01:57 am
I still am, I just have a better sense of where the limits are. The cutting out was temporary to enable recovery. I like the benefits it provides my hair and skin and how it enables me to eat more food and increase my calorie intake, so I'm keeping honey and fruits in my diet for now, but at lower intakes and/or frequencies.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 21, 2011, 11:08:36 pm
My best guess as to what happened with my tooth is that it was loosened due to night-time grinding. When I eat too much carbs I tend to be more prone to dreams, nightmares and night-time grinding and this would explain why only one upper tooth was noticeably loosened and not my lower teeth that were already a little loose. I noted it to my hygienist at a dental cleaning today and she also found that a tooth adjacent to that upper tooth is also a little loose, so that would also fit that hypothesis and she thinks if my bite guard is not a good fit then damage can occur even with it on. I'm going to try to avoid over-carbing to avoid the extreme grinding and have the dentist look at my bite guard to see if he can make a better one.

On the bright side, it was the easiest cleaning I've ever had. Some time ago I increased the frequency of my cleanings again to every 3 months, but I think this visit was even better than any other 3 month visit. The hygienist also could not find the cavity that 2 dentists and a hygienist noted in the past. I'll have my dentist check that at the next 3 month visit. If that has already remineralized in just 3 months, that's amazing. The main changes I made since the last cleaning 3 months ago were to start taking an MSM powder (mixed in water) my dentist recommended and to start drinking bone broths. I also continued to take Green Pastures raw fermented cod liver oil and raw butter oil (for the vitamin K2). I know these are things that Tyler and others here don't approve of, but I wanted to improve dental issues that raw Paleo alone did not seem to be resolving, so I gave them a shot and so far so good, though I know that there are too many variables to attribute the success with confidence to just these.

Today I was convinced by the holistic hygienist to try a fluoride "paint" on my teeth for added remineralization, as there is one near-cavity that is still there that she found. I know, I know, fluoride is the devil, and even she said that they don't recommend consuming fluoride, but they are OK with it topically. I figure that with the bone broths, sulfur and foods I consume that I'm also building calcium and phosphorous and not just fluoride into my teeth so it may be OK. Who knows. I'm open minded about it and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just sharing my experience.

My holistic dentist said he read Ramiel Nagel's book that I recommended to him and he liked it and recommended it to a couple of patients who apparently benefited.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 23, 2011, 05:04:02 am
I got a blue screen of death on my PC that won't go away (I think the motherboard or CPU got damaged from overheating), so I have limited Internet access currently.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 23, 2011, 05:13:49 am
On second thought, the night-time grinding hypothesis for my teeth loosening isn't making sense, because the teeth that loosened are completely covered by my night guard, which I put on my upper teeth. It might be plausible if the loosening happened on the lower teeth, but I can't imagine how it could have happened on the upper teeth. Hmmm, maybe carbs do directly cause loosening of my teeth, but then the question becomes why this time only the upper ones? Quite a puzzle.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 25, 2011, 05:31:07 am
I tried some wild growing fiddleheads in the local woods and they tasted much better than those sold in the market--softer, juicier and less bitter. The wild berries are still not ripe yet.

I noticed in some photos that I tacked up on my fridge that the eyes of my two Paleo nephews are quite Asian (narrow) in appearance now. I hypothesized that they likely have Native American ancestry on both sides of their family and mentioned this to their mother, who told me that she had indeed noticed some Native American features in them and researched the genealogy and found evidence of Native Americans on both sides of the family.

As they mature they are looking more and more like proto-Celtic/Turkic Western Asians of the Caucasian/Turkish steppes/mountains region, with both European and Asian features, though still weighted toward the European. Amazingly, within a single year the nephew that had been more badly affected by modern foods (his mother ate wheat germ while pregnant with him, on the advice of a pregnancy book, but didn't with the second son) has had his eyes go from round and bulging to narrow, without bulging, and Asian-like within a single year, and his eyes are now almost as narrow as his younger brother's. Both boys have experienced visible broadening of their jaws. In unfortunate contrast, my other two nephews that eat lots of junk food have had increasing narrowing of their jaws and skulls, especially the youngest, who is also showing increasingly prominent "buck" teeth, whereas the teeth of my Paleo nephews have been straightening and normalizing somewhat after starting out looking quite bad. It's sad to see my modern-foods nephews suffering physically and healthwise, but any time I or my father try to explain it to their mother she reacts with hostility. She was a junk-food-junkie in her youth too and thinks that we Paleo dieters are the misguided ones rather than her. She tries to find any positive thing she can in her family's health and any negative thing she can in Paleo dieters to justify her views. The slightest imperfection in a Paleo dieter is proof positive that it doesn't work, whereas horrendous health problems among modern food eaters like her own husband are irrelevant. It's amazing what cognitive dissonance can do.

So Weston Price's predictions are so far coming true, though he wasn't right about everything, of course, as Tyler has pointed out ad nauseum. My Paleo nephews don't consume dairy products, so their positive health experience seems to counter Price's view on the importance of dairy (as do the experiences of Tyler, myself and others here who don't consume significant dairy), though even Price acknowledged that some traditional peoples, like the Inuit, fared well without dairy and Price didn't seem to be as dogmatic about dairy as the WAPF is.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 01, 2011, 05:52:35 am
Raw organic carrots taste so sweet to me these days, almost like candy, except without the excessive sweetness and dental gunk.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 09, 2011, 08:35:11 am
Celery on the other hand, tends to be hit or miss. Some celery tastes pretty good, a bit like one of my favorite veggie genuses--brassicae/crucifers, but most times it's pretty "meh" and carrots/parsnips have better snappy crunch.

I try to share the bad and ugly here as well as the good. I've been absent for some days because my computer decided to die and then I got violently ill, maybe from some miso soup I had with sashimi at a local favorite restaurant. Normally I just take a sip or two and then let the waitress take the rest, but this soup tasted particularly good, so I consumed it all. The next day I was violently ill. I don't know for sure if the miso soup was the cause and it was a rather delayed reaction if it was, but it was the only thing especially different I did from the usual. I did eat some French sausage the next morning, but I've never gotten that bad a reaction from it before, whereas I have had some bad reactions from soy in the past, though not that bad (and it would be surprising, given that there were only tiny bits of tofu in the soup).

Danny Roddy shared some info that seems relevant to me, and maybe to others:

Quote
"Cream, butter, eggs, and liver are good sources of vitamin A. When people supplement thyroid and eat liver once or twice a week, their acne and dandruff (and many other problems) usually clear up very quickly. It was acne and dandruff that led me into studying the steroids and thyroid, and in the process I found that they were related to constipation and food sensitivity." --Ray Peat

This opened me up for a HUGE reinterpretation of what was going on in my own body. I thought about all the vexing reactions I had to many of the foods Peat recommends for increasing metabolism. Dandruff and chapped lips, both symptoms of vitamin A deficiency (and a lot of other things), were consistently the result of consuming a large amount of orange juice, honey, and dairy.

Adding vitamin A rich foods (raw yolks, raw liver) remedied these problems literally overnight. Once again, another example of how studying Peat's work has improved my well being, even if he or I are way off.

http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/6/27/becoming-the-warmest-man-alive.html

Could this explain why I get chapped lips and dandruff when I eat too much fruits or honey? It does seem that I'm tolerating carbs better since I've been emphasizing raw eggs, cod liver oil and liver more.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 18, 2011, 08:00:27 am
I tried tamarind today, for which I had been keeping a lookout for quite some time. It's a legume that's edible raw and is supposed to be good for constipation, as cassia fistula, another legume fruit, is. I found it to be much tastier and less nauseating than cassia fistula. Time will tell how well I handle it, as it is known to cause gas and diarrhea in some people and GS reported one less than stellar result:
I made some errors today.

Yesterday I had some Thai tamarind, imported, in a box,  Made me fart so much and made my tummy grumble.

Tamarind even looks a bit like a turd, ;D but it tastes like to me like citrus candy.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on July 19, 2011, 09:15:43 am
Ewwwwwwww, Phil!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 19, 2011, 09:19:42 am
LOL. Meh, I ate some more and got tired of them. They don't thrill me, they're sticky, they gave me some gas, and they didn't do anything positive for my bowels.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 01, 2011, 03:04:11 am
I discovered that my favorite local healthfood market carries "raw" cheeses, which I hadn't noticed before. So I bought some samples. Tres cher, but the Spanish sheep's milk cheeses were pretty tasty. I've ranked them best to worse in terms of my taste preference from top to bottom:

Zamorano Spanish raw sheep's milk cheese $17.29/lb: sharp, tangy, firm, my favorite

La Marquesa Rosemary Spanish Raw Sheep's Milk $14.29/lb: sharp, tangy, flavorful due to the rosemary spice (but it became a bit overwhelming, the more that I ate, so if I were to eat a lot, I would choose the unspiced Zamorano cheese)
Ingredients: salt, cheese culture, rennet, lysozyme, lard

Twig Farm Square Cheese Raw Goat Milk $22.99/lb: soft, creamy, mild flavor

Springbrook Farm Raclette (style) Raw Cow's Milk $17.99/lb: firmest, becomes creamier when chewed, but also gluey, blandest taste of the bunch

Caveman Blue raw cow's milk cheese $21.99/lb: soft, crumbly, too salty, the mold is also a little overpowering

I didn't notice any negative effects from these cheeses, though they were just small wedges of cheese. I didn't get the positive feelings I get from some foods, like raw red meats, raw liver and raw egg yolks. I might buy the Spanish cheeses again on occasion. The others I wouldn't bother with.

What do raw Paleos who eat cheese accompany their cheeses with, if anything? Probably not crackers, right?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: klowcarb on August 01, 2011, 04:31:26 am
I would just put the raw cheese on raw beef. Or eat with slices of prosciutto.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on August 03, 2011, 11:44:34 pm
Hey Phil,
I just wanted to tell you that I so love reading your posts! Everytime I am here or on DCF I read all the threads where your name appears as the one who posted last - I always think that must be an interesting read and in the vast majority of cases it is-love all the research and especially your philosophical side  8)
Cheers
Nicole
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 04, 2011, 06:17:16 am
You're velcome Nicole! Hope you didn't mind my tamarind turds photo. ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: rawcarni on August 04, 2011, 10:38:59 pm
Hope you didn't mind my tamarind turds photo. ;D
Nope  :D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 18, 2011, 06:06:13 am
Found some wild (feral, former domesticated) grapes growing locally today. As with the black raspberries, there only seems to be a week or two window where they are nearly fully ripe and not yet shriveled or dried up. These were already starting to shrivel on the vine so it looks like the end of the season is nearing. They are tiny and taste sour--even more so than the wild black raspberries--and contain large, hard seeds. Not something that would appeal to most people. One definitely wouldn't want to have to rely on fruits for survival here in Vermont. Grapes aren't even native to the USA, so pre-European-contact Native Americans would have had even fewer wild fruit options than Vermonters do today.

Note: the grapes in the image appear much larger than they actually are.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 18, 2011, 06:15:05 am
Over the last 6 weeks, I have been eating endless hundreds of plums from 2 trees near my local river. Suddenly, the plums have disappeared completely both from the tree and from the ground, perhaps the birds got to them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 18, 2011, 06:47:00 am
I haven't seen any plum trees. Are they indigenous to England or did they spread from planted trees?

One of the strange things is that I haven't seen any evidence yet of birds or animals eating the berries or grapes. What I didn't eat was left to shrivel up.

There's also two species of blackish berries that mature later in the year, as I recall from last year. One is bland tasting and the other nasty. I'm pretty sure the nasty ones are an invasive species, I forget what, based on what I found when I googled them last year. I've never seen a bird eating them even though there were quite a lot last year and they were also left to shrivel.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: miles on August 18, 2011, 07:01:14 am
There are berries that grow wild here. They're lots of little black balls each containing a seed, and they're all clumped together, like a raspberry but black. When they're ripe they're very nice, much better than any berries from shops. You have to get them when they're ripe though - when they're big, soft and come off the stalk very easily. You should also chew lightly so as not to break the seed, and swallow it all down. These don't ripen until September some time, though I've come across a small number which have been ripe already.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Eric on August 18, 2011, 08:07:27 am
Hi Phil, I bet one of the black berries you found last year was some type of wild cherry, or chokecherry. Was it growing on a tree, shrub, vine or herbaceous plant? Hawthorne berries also ripen late in the year, and elderberries should be ripening soon but grow as umbels.

The thing about foraging wild foods that makes me think we were meant to be largely carnivores is that most any wild food eaten in quantity can have negative effects. This is even true of wild raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, and certainly wild grapes. These fruits are potent and can be strong diuretics (cause you to urinate excessively) and laxatives (you know what this means already, I hope). They can also have other qualities, depending on species and growing location. Wild grapes are particularly potent, and I treat them solely as a medicinal, much like greenbriar berries.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 18, 2011, 08:47:41 am
Correction, it looks like the wild grapes I picked may be the vitis labrusca, aka fox grape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_labrusca), which is believed to be native to East-Central USA and Canada.

Hi Phil, I bet one of the black berries you found last year was some type of wild cherry, or chokecherry. Was it growing on a tree, shrub, vine or herbaceous plant?
IIRC, the nasty type was growing in great quantity on trees and the bland one was on bushes.

Quote
The thing about foraging wild foods that makes me think we were meant to be largely carnivores is that most any wild food eaten in quantity can have negative effects.
I guess it would mainly depend on the quality of the fruits in ancestral northeastern African, Europe and West-Central Asia.

Quote
This is even true of wild raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, and certainly wild grapes. These fruits are potent and can be strong diuretics (cause you to urinate excessively) and laxatives (you know what this means already, I hope). They can also have other qualities, depending on species and growing location. Wild grapes are particularly potent, and I treat them solely as a medicinal, much like greenbriar berries.
I know what you mean. I tried to see how many of the wild grapes I could eat, and it's not many. They're turning me into a sour puss. ;) Do you know how Native Americans ate them? Did they dry them and mix with meat or something to make them more palatable?

I did some foraging and noticed that the shriveled ones are in direct sun, whereas some in deeper shade aren't ripe yet.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 18, 2011, 10:46:10 am
Before bed I decided to do a bit more searching and found a more likely candidate for the grapes I found--Vitis riparia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_riparia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_riparia) --or River Bank Grape or Frost Grape. It's also indigenous to the Northeastern US and looks more like the grapes I found and it was growing not that far from a river, so it seems a more likely match.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: TylerDurden on August 18, 2011, 02:17:30 pm
I haven't seen any plum trees. Are they indigenous to England or did they spread from planted trees?
No idea, they just grew wild by the river-bank.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 10, 2011, 10:05:35 pm
I had a dental checkup today and I still have the cavity in the enamel of one tooth. There was additional improvement in plaque and gums.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 13, 2011, 07:25:47 pm
The wild river grapes in the shade are finally starting to dry up. They last longer than I expected. They taste a bit sweeter, less sour, than earlier in the year.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 28, 2012, 12:21:52 pm
I received a genetic report from 23andme that says that a low fat diet may increase my waist size, which it did (by adding body fat, especially in the love handles and belly, and also neck and man-boobs):

"A low fat diet may lead to increased waist circumference but a diet high in monounsaturated fat protects against increased waist circumference and may lead to reductions in BMI."

Apparently, at least this gene of mine is designed for a higher-fat diet, which matches my experience. The two biggest improvements in my health came from adding more animal and seafood fats (especially raw grass fed or wild animal/fish fats) and eliminating gluten grains.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 31, 2012, 08:33:22 am
Chris Kresser said in a podcast that there is research supporting the effectiveness of zinc tally test liquid in determining zinc deficiency and I noticed that some of my remaining symptoms matched the symptoms he mentioned indicating zinc deficiency. Plus, I know that zinc supplements helped my acne and white spots on my fingernails in the past, and I still get acne if I eat too much fruit and still get a fingernail white spot every now and then (though much less than in the past), so I figured I'm probably still somewhat zinc deficient and purchased a bottle of  zinc tally  (http://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Nutrients-Zinc-Status-Liquid/dp/B000Q3ZRL8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1327969700&sr=8-4). Sure enough, it indicates deficiency, despite the fact that I eat a lot of zinc-rich raw Paleo foods. This is pretty convincing evidence that raw Paleo diets don't always quickly resolve existing deficiencies and foodlements (or if there's not other option, supplements) may be beneficial in some cases, like mine.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on February 02, 2012, 08:43:40 am
Glad you were able to figure that out!
So what are the foods that you eat that are high in zinc?  I know that pumpkin seeds are... but you probably wouldn't eat those.

How are you feeling otherwise? Do you have any changes in your health, energy etc. to report?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 02, 2012, 07:13:41 pm
My experience doesn't match exactly the measured zinc content of foods. Zinc levels in the body depend not just on that, but also on what is actually absorbable by an individual's body and what isn't chelated away by antinutrients. In my case I don't notice any benefit to my zinc deficiency symptoms from pumpkin seeds, but I do notice it from raw red meat, and more so than any other food. Pumpkin seeds also upset my stomach if I eat more than a small amount and I'm not very fond of their taste or insubstantiveness, for lack of a better term. I like the mouth feel and savoriness of a good chunk of meat in the mouth. Fruits actually worsen my zinc deficiency symptoms, as do grains, but I haven't eaten grains beyond occasional small amounts of white rice, such as with sashimi, for a long time.

I'm feeling good, but I seem to have reached another plateau. So, for example, my dental plaque is softer, but I still get it and my gum inflammation is less, but there's still some, I have far fewer white spots on my fingernails, but I still get one or two, my acne is gone and my tolerance of carbs seems improved, but I get a new zit or three and mild foot/toe cramps and sometimes some throat and sinus mucus if I eat more than what most would probably consider a small amount of fruit. It would be nice if I could improve things further by resolving the underlying issues that are causing the remaining carb intolerance and nutrient deficiencies and perhaps improve the symptoms further. To that end I've been trying various raw fermented foods, as I suspect that lifelong gut dysbiosis inherited from my mother's inadequate gut bacteria and worsened by the SAD is a major factor.

If I don't get further improvements, then I'll live with that, but it's been my experience in the past that what can be achieved is much more than what I had thought possible. I'd reach a certain level and decide that that was the best that could be achieved and that I'd live with it, only to later discover that further improvement was possible. For example, I thought that cooked Paleo was the best one could do until I learned about raw Paleo and tried it. So I've learned not to assume that health issues can't be reversed. I'd like to get to a point where Lex is where he has found what works super well for him and can just do basically the same thing every day without spending much time or thinking on it (not necessarily eating the exact same foods every day like Lex does, but something rather simple).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on February 03, 2012, 09:19:32 am
That was a nice update.

When reading your update I had a little internal movie running of you on a ledge/plateau of a cliff resting, looking up bracing yourself for the next exertion.

I wondered if maybe hitting a plateau might mean not that something has to change to continue further, but maybe just some time doing the same thing on that plateau and when the body is ready it might make another leap up the cliff.

Those were just my little mind wanderings - but thought I'd share them. Thanks for catching us up.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 03, 2012, 11:08:37 am
No problem, you are most grateful, most grateful indeed my dear.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 05, 2012, 11:53:17 pm
[The above was a joke, BTW, if that wasn't obvious.]

Like Lex, I try to share the bad with the good. I currently have a cold (throat and sinus congestion, aches and malaise, watery eyes, possibly acquired from my co-worker who shares a tiny office who has a bad cold).  I think it's my first clear cold since 2004, in the early days of my going cooked Paleo, and my symptoms appear to be less severe than my co-workers' who I may have acquired it from, but it does add more evidence to dispel banned-member William's bogus notion that people eating nutrient-rich ancestral-type diets cannot get pathogenic infections.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on February 06, 2012, 04:50:09 am
I hope you feel better soon!

I actually couldn't tell if it was a brain fart where you got some words mixed up or if you were making a funny. I prefer the funny to the fart.  ;)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 06, 2012, 05:20:35 am
Yeah, it's a funny, but it's an old style of humor like W. C. Fields used to use that I realized that not many use today, and doesn't translate well in writing.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on February 06, 2012, 07:35:41 am
It was directed at me, and I liked it, so it worked.  :-*
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 18, 2012, 08:27:12 am
I can't remember whether I updated my journal regarding the following or not, so I'll do so now: my left foot is fully recovered now and I no longer get any pain when walking barefoot or in barefoot-style shoes on cement. I injured it when I was doing lots of walking and running in bare feet and barefoot-style shoes on cement and not paying much attention to how gently I was trodding. I kept reinjuring it when I walked more than a few days in a row on cement, so I eventually rested it thoroughly and avoided cement as much as possible and that did the trick. Now I can walk and run on cement with no problems, but I'm trying to be careful to go gently on cement, pay attention to form, and not do excessive ambulation on that hard surface. Blacktop, in contrast, gives me no problems. I wish all sidewalks were made of blacktop instead of cement.

What got me thinking about this was a podcast interview of Paleo diet blogger David Csonka in which he made the same guess that I did in the past--that cement sidewalks may have contributed to the development of cushy footware. Cement, sharp gravel and thorns are the only surfaces/materials I find somewhat problematic to walk on in bare feet. Even broken glass doesn't tend to give me problems. David even talked about a bad incident he had in which he inadvertently ran onto a horrendously thorn-plagued field with a girlfriend he was trying to encourage to run barefoot (ironically) and ended up with badly bloodied feet. The only thing I don't understand is how he ran far enough into the field that he ended up badly bloodied. I would have stopped at the first thorn or two and checked around. I guess they must have been running too fast to stop in time.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: William on February 18, 2012, 01:44:26 pm
...banned-member William's bogus notion that people eating nutrient-rich ancestral-type diets cannot get pathogenic infections.

Paleoman didn't, and I don't.
Pathogenic refers to living microbes; colds are believed to caused by a virus, which are not living.

Your cold is probably environmental, as I live in a wild forest, minimal environmental pollution/toxins/poisons and use the general purpose antidote
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 18, 2012, 10:27:23 pm
Quote
A pathogen (Greek: pathos, "suffering, passion" and gens (-gen) "producer of") or infectious agent - in colloquial terms, a germ — is a microbe or microorganism such as a virus, bacterium, prion, or fungus that causes disease in its animal or plant host.[1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogen#cite_note-0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogen#cite_note-0)
See also:
Virus Pathogenesis
http://www.microbiologybytes.com/virology/VirPath.html (http://www.microbiologybytes.com/virology/VirPath.html)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 11, 2012, 08:16:18 am
I discovered a little treasure at my local healthfood market--frozen wild Maine blueberries. Even frozen, they taste fabulous. Far, far superior to those big fat, bland, mushy California blueberries, including organic. I've noticed in the past that wild Maine blueberries give me much less negative health symptoms than most other fruits, so I really put them to the test this time. I ate most of the 17 oz container in a single sitting. The only negative effect was a brief tiny bit of nasal mucus, which I suspect was more due to the cold nature of the frozen berries than the berries themselves. Wild Maine blueberries are excellent proof that not all fruits are the same.

Blessed be the wild Maine blueberry, a little bit of heaven on earth.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 15, 2012, 09:12:04 am
Had some semi-frozen ground (100% grassfed) beef tonight, Nenets style. By chance it was at the perfect state of frozenness--not too much, not too little. Yummy, yummy, yummy, yum! And I felt a nice feeling of well being during and afterward. Blessed be the semi-frozen grassfed beef.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 19, 2012, 05:49:31 am
This is a pretty good approximation of my current staple foods:

Fertile chicken eggs and duck eggs
100% Grassfed ground beef
Fats: Bone Marrow, Suet, lard (all of them grassfed, pastured, free range, or wild and local/regional), and RFCLO
Wild fish: yellowfin tuna, salmon, large fresh sardines, clams, mackerel and other wild fish
100% Grassfed Liver, chicken hearts and other organs
Carrots and Parsnips (edible raw, though occasionally cooked on the 'warm' setting in the crockpot with bones)
Lemons (I squeeze the juice out of them)
Blackberries, wild Maine blueberries
Bone broth, usually made with pastured marrow bones or large fresh wild sardines (including heads)
Really Raw brand fermented raw honey (eating it does wonders for my hair and scalp flakes for some reason, perhaps the antifungal elements)
Raw fermented sauerkraut
Duck breast
Raw high vitamin butter oil (for the vitamin K2, as an experiment)
Water, mineral water, teas (such as Douglas fir spring tip, senna--less harsh for me than cassia fistula--Earl Grey, roasted dandelion, etc.)

My Current Secondary Foods:

Coconut water
Fresh figs (not dried--only tend to be available in the summer), raspberries, "overripe" bananas, and other fruits/berries
Pastured ground bison or pork, pork loin, top round steak, ribeye steak, wild oysters and other meats/fish/organs including occasional wild meats like deer meat, liver or suet
Raw celery and other nonstarchy veggies
Raw aged Spanish sheep milk cheese
Ginger, raw fresh or pickled
Raw or pickled horseradish
Wasabi mustard
Kelp
Sea salt, black pepper, spices
Occasional coffee
Great Lakes unflavored gelatin
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 07, 2012, 08:11:21 am
Kale chips

I don't know why several vegans and raw vegans praise kale chips like they were ambrosia. I tried making my own, following their instructions, and wasn't that impressed. So I bought some at my local market today, in case I made them wrong, and was even less impressed. If this is all it takes to impress a vegan, then their diet can't be that good. I'm puzzled. Kale chips are not all that.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on April 07, 2012, 11:54:29 am
I'm pretty much unimpressed with dried anything, except seaweeds.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 18, 2012, 09:24:55 am
A friend and good spirit who was a great friend to my best friend left this earth suddenly today while still young enough to participate vigorously in his favorite activity--tennis. He had retired very early and thus was able to do what he loved, and he died while doing it (while taking a break from a tennis match to get a drink of water). He often gave sage advice and today he has taught me to try to refocus on the important things--friends, family and good times. If only I wasn't still a wage slave. God rest ye merry.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: lex_rooker on April 18, 2012, 12:35:03 pm
Sorry for your loss.  This is the reason that I retired early as well.  So many of my friends didn't even make it to age 55.  One died of lung cancer.  He had smoked for 25 years but quit when he was 40.  He died at 54.  One died of a rare cancer where there are only a few known cases.  He never smoked, drank, or took drugs, but died at 53.  Another dropped dead at 43 while jogging after work.  By all measures he was in great shape.  Another good friend died at 36 from kidney failure.  A virus attacked his kidneys and damaged them beyond repair.  He was on dialysis for 3 years but they never found a match for a transplant and his body finally gave up and he was gone.

We are all on borrowed time and we need to make the most of every minute we have.  This is why I don't spend my time obsessing over diet.  I just make the best dietary choices I can but spend the majority of my time living my life to the fullest doing the things I love to do.

Lex 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 18, 2012, 07:21:10 pm
This is why you are one of the great minds on this forum, Lex--you have whittled things down to the crucial essence. Thanks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 23, 2012, 04:20:52 am
I was sprinting through the woods, having fun leaping over and balancing on logs and such, when I noticed that the fiddleheads (young ferns) are out in force. I bent over to pick one to eat (I find they taste best fresh-picked and raw--they become more bitter after they are picked and allowed to sit around or cooked) and noticed an Indian-looking fellow picking some plants and bagging them. I said hello and asked if he was picking the fiddleheads. It sounded like he said he was picking nuguri and showed me, and it was indeed fiddleheads. He said his people in India eat them. I said I did too and he gave me the thumbs up.

Quote
In the Indian subcontinent, it is found in the Himalayan North Eastern states of India. In the Kullu valley in Himachal Pradesh, it is known locally as "lingri" and is famously used to make a pickle "lingri ka achaar". In the Kangra Valley of Himachal it is called 'Lungdu' in the local Kangri Pahari language. In Darjeeling and Sikkim regions, it is called ningro and is well loved as a vegetable side dish, often mixed with local cheese. It is also pickled. In Assam, it is known as 'dhekia xaak'; there it is a popular side dish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddlehead_fern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddlehead_fern)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Lynnzard on April 23, 2012, 12:50:08 pm
That's funny. You never know who you'll run into out in the woods. I used to run into an elderly lady a lot in Arkansas when I was gathering hickory nuts. She was always after them, too. Close to 80 and still hammering them open like a pro.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 24, 2012, 07:38:26 pm
I've heard/read Chris Kresser, Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris and others recommend keeping blood glucose spikes below 160 mg/dl, preferably below 140 mg/dl. Heard more about it today in a Livin La Vida Low Carb podcast. Dr. Dwight Lundell said that postprandial blood sugar spikes cause inflammation and that chronically it leads to heart disease. Dr. William Davis said that the most effective weight loss tool is a glucometer. (LLVLC podcast episode 571)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on April 24, 2012, 11:20:17 pm
Hi Phil - catching up with your journal I'm going to respond to a few things not in sequence of your posting. Hope you don't mind.

I hope you are feeling slowly better after your loss. Truly, every moment we have is a gift.

I've been learning about blueberries as I'd like to grow some and bought a couple of bushes. Blueberries in the wild are actually small plants low to the ground so are harder to harvest. I plan on buying some "low" blueberries on the web if my bush blueberries survive because everyone seems to agree that they taste better. It's actually good that they are harder to harvest or the populations would have already probably been decimated. Also - in case you didn't know it - Costco (at least the one near me) carries massive bags of wild organic blueberries that are small like the ones you bought and are a real bargain. I eat them pretty much every day.

About the blood sugars - I've been thinking about blood sugar and how vital it is lately. Even though my blood sugars stay extremely constant I have learned that even a small change past or above a certain point for me radically affects my energy levels and more importantly the consistency of my energy.

That's great news about your foot! Do you have any links to good information on how to move correctly that I can share with my husband? He has injured his foot mostly through repetitive incorrect contact with the ground I think.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 25, 2012, 06:36:45 am
I hope you are feeling slowly better after your loss. Truly, every moment we have is a gift.
Yeah, I find I recover faster emotionally than I used to since I went Paleo, and I never considered myself excessively soft or sentimental as it was. I seem to be emotionally resilient without being excessively cold (or so I hope). I've been able to cheer up my friend who was hit very hard by this sudden death amongst our close friends, for which she has been very thankful. Raw Paleo seems to be robustifying in many ways.

I definitely recommend small, wild blueberries, preferably ones indigenous to your region.

Quote
That's great news about your foot! Do you have any links to good information on how to move correctly that I can share with my husband? He has injured his foot mostly through repetitive incorrect contact with the ground I think.
Cushy shoes with big heels promote incorrect form and weaken the arches and other muscles. Barefoot is best in the long run and it is a growing craze, so there's tons of info on it now. Mark Sisson http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-prepare-for-barefooting/#axzz1t01bXqcL, (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-prepare-for-barefooting/#axzz1t01bXqcL,) Barefoot Ted http://www.barefootted.com/index.php?q=/, (http://www.barefootted.com/index.php?q=/,) Chris McDougall http://www.chrismcdougall.com/barefoot.html (http://www.chrismcdougall.com/barefoot.html) and others provide a lot of info, including how to transition safely.

In my case, my left foot and leg (and my entire left side) are weaker than my right, so my left foot was more susceptible to injury from lots of walking on cement sidewalks that I was doing. Cement is unnaturally hard and flat. The weakness of the muscles in my left foot and ankle occasionally resulted in striking the ground wrong and one day this happened on a cement sidewalk and I mildly injured my left foot and kept mildly aggravating it by resuming walking on cement sidewalks again too soon. Taking a sufficient break from sidewalks and either taking the bus or walking on grass and dirt as much as possible enabled my left foot to recover and now I can walk on cement sidewalks with no problem.

Your post reminded me that my left ankle and foot also seem stronger than ever and I haven't struck the ground wrong in the months since that last incident. Years ago it was so bad from a gluten-rich diet that my left ankle would sometimes suddenly collapse while I was walking, for no apparent reason. Luckily I was agile enough to never fall, but that could have been a major problem in my elder years, especially if it had continued to progress.

I used to go to chiropractors and they told me that my left side weakness was due to my spinal curvature cutting off much of the nerves to that side. I suspect that weak connective tissues and muscles on that side also contributed (and the reduced nerve signals to that side probably contributed to weaker muscles). It's interesting that my left side strength and joint stability has improved greatly despite still having a curved spine.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on April 25, 2012, 09:23:36 am
Thanks Phil. I copied what you wrote here and set it to hubbie.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Lynnzard on April 25, 2012, 10:13:58 am
Yeah, I find I recover faster emotionally than I used to since I went Paleo, and I never considered myself excessively soft or sentimental as it was. I seem to be emotionally resilient without being excessively cold (or so I hope). I've been able to cheer up my friend who was hit very hard by this sudden death amongst our close friends, for which she has been very thankful. Raw Paleo seems to be robustifying in many ways.

It's interesting to see you say this, and I'm glad you're feeling better overall. I'm sorry about your loss. It's good that you're able and willing to be there for your friend. That so often helps in recovery for the self, as well.

I didn't even think about it until I read this, but my emotional responses have shifted, too. My Dad has ongoing, often severe health problems that have taken a real toll on the whole family over the past year. His most recent hospital trip was a few days ago, and while I was still concerned and stayed in close touch with Mom for updates, I wasn't distracted and upset like I have been with the past incidents. I felt calm and as though just taking a wait and see approach was the right way to go. Once he was back home and things were stable, I was as happy as I ever am when he pulls through these things. It was the upset half of it that was markedly different. What do you think makes the difference? Is it the increased raw saturated fat in the diet, or something else?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 25, 2012, 10:25:27 am
Yes, I think that's part of it, and avoiding the modern foods and ingredients that probably screw up the neural system.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on April 25, 2012, 10:45:47 am
I'd say having more minerals in the bloodstream, especially magnesium and calcium, makes a big difference in the degree of calm, as well. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on April 27, 2012, 06:27:01 am
I'd say having more minerals in the bloodstream, especially magnesium and calcium, makes a big difference in the degree of calm, as well. 

Cheri - have you done research into the proper ratio of magnesium to calcium for men and women by any chance?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 27, 2012, 07:14:23 am
I'd say having more minerals in the bloodstream, especially magnesium and calcium, makes a big difference in the degree of calm, as well.
Indeed, when I was working in a supplement/herb/healthfood store I noticed that my customers tended to get more benefit from the mineral supplements than the vitamins or herbs, yet not a lot tried the minerals, perhaps in part because they don't get as much advertising.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 04, 2012, 09:42:58 am
Looks like I'm not the only one for whom acidic fruit juices cause problems if consumed in excess:
Quote
"previous research in the same journal showed that acids in citrus fruit juices (particularly lemon juice) can also erode the enamel on teeth"

NPR - Online: Energy Drinks Can Take Teeth On An Irreversible Acid Trip
05/03/2012
http://www.wbur.org/npr/151868879/energy-drinks-can-take-teeth-on-an-irreversible-acid-trip (http://www.wbur.org/npr/151868879/energy-drinks-can-take-teeth-on-an-irreversible-acid-trip)
However, they were much more of a problem in the past for me than they are now. Some time benefiting from a solid base of a raw Paleo diet appears to robustify the body to better handle stressors like fruit acids.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 24, 2012, 11:42:53 pm
I try to be honest and factual and, like Lex and other good posters, report the failed experiments and health problems (even minor ones like chapped lips) as well as the successes, not just propagandize. So I'll report my less than thrilling experience with coconut foods. It's not meant as a criticism of coconut, nor as any sort of claim regarding how others will fare on coconut foods. No doubt, regardless of how I report things, some will interpret what I write negatively, but I won't lose sleep over those folks.

I find that my experience with coconut products aligns with Tyler's to some degree. Highly touted mass-produced products like extra virgin coconut oil, Artisana "raw" coconut butter, and store-bought coconut cream taste lousy to me and give me a heavy feeling in my stomach and often nausea and malaise, especially coconut oil. I'm puzzled by the acclaim these products receive even at a raw forum like this one. One of the worst recommendations I've seen on this forum, from my experience, was to eat the Artisana so-called "raw" coconut butter (I think it was even referred to as "ambrosia"). I also found that flash-pasteurized coconut water was more problematic for me than 100% raw coconut water, though I find that I need to limit my intake of even the latter. Based on my experience, I suspect that I don't digest MCT oils very well, whereas I seem to digest long-chain animal fats much better, and that even seemingly mild heating and processing of foods can have a deleterious effect, at least on me.

Recently I found that mature fresh coconut and coconut water consumed straight from the fruit were less problematic than processed coconut products, even the "raw" ones like Artisana's. I even experienced some benefits on BM's from the mature coconut, so I upped my intake somewhat but found that there are limits for me even with fresh coconut. I apparently exceeded that limit when I ate nearly half a coconut, including the water as well as the flesh, thoroughly chopped and chewed, and ended up vomiting the coconut back out. I think a contributing factor might have been that I ate lots of wild Maine blueberries after eating the coconut. The acidity of the berries plus the MCT oils and fiber might have been too much for my stomach. Won't repeat that experiment.  ;D

Despite that experience, I'm still intrigued by the beneficial effect I got from moderate amounts of mature coconut flesh, so have been continuing to eat it, but in more limited quantities. I'm also interested in the possibility that home-made coconut food products like home-made raw coconut cream might be more tolerable for me than store-bought products and might also provide some benefits in limited quantities, but the sticker shock of high-quality food processors and juicers gave me pause.

---*---

Last weekend I showed my brother my Movnat-type course in the woods and he didn't show the much interest, though he loves mountain biking, which has some interesting similarities. I also learned that his eldest son has joined a Crossfit gym. Crossfit seems to be the biggest spreader of Paleo-type stuff today.

---*---

Interesting comments from Dave Asprey on raw meat and eggs as part of an "anti cancer diet"--he even poo-pooed salmonella:
Quote
http://www.bulletproofexec.com/steve-jobs-dr-dean-ornish-and-vegetarian-cancer/

Dave Asprey

While The Bulletproof Diet is not an anti cancer diet, if you eat it raw, it will serve that purpose. Raw meat or egg is better for you than raw vegetables.

Durgareiki

Dave, raw meats and eggs will kill you! What are you SAYING? You really need to educate yourself!
 
BuddhaBandit

Raw chicken or pork will give you salmonella or trichinosis respectively, both of which can be fatal. I'm assuming you're making a broad brush statement much as you do repeatedly in your article, without citing sources, providing footnotes, or backing up your claims with links, etc. Maybe you meant to say fish is better eaten raw. Nonetheless, you said something general enough to be stupidly and obviously dangerous. And by the way, get your facts right about soy. It's not soy that's bad, it's soy isolates. Consult the google machine. You might learn something Mr. Genius.

Dave Asprey

Lol – trichinosis in commercial pork that’s inspected? Hardly. Salmonella dies when you dip it in iodine, and chickens raised properly in pastures have a much lower risk of it.

I know. “The google machine” told me. It must be true.

Edamame has been linked with estrogen problems in kids and males. ALL soy protein is bad, whether or not it’s isolated or still in those nasty tasting little toxic beans.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on June 25, 2012, 10:17:52 am
Hey Phil. Have you ever been to the tropics and eaten coconuts right off the tree? In the Barbados and Florida I did GREAT with coconuts but by the time they get here to Texas and whatever they do to them in the process makes them into a whole different experience for me. I miss the good ones!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 26, 2012, 02:06:11 am
i tried Artisana butter and did not like it.  stick with the real thing.  young coconut is so much better.  but they are hit or miss.  a lot of times i gotten spoiled ones and at $1.5 each it adds up quickly. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 26, 2012, 07:08:28 am
Hey Phil. Have you ever been to the tropics and eaten coconuts right off the tree? In the Barbados and Florida I did GREAT with coconuts but by the time they get here to Texas and whatever they do to them in the process makes them into a whole different experience for me. I miss the good ones!
Nope. Sounds nice.

i tried Artisana butter and did not like it.  stick with the real thing.  young coconut is so much better.  but they are hit or miss.  a lot of times i gotten spoiled ones and at $1.5 each it adds up quickly.
I do indeed seem to tolerate green coconut better than coconut products like Artisana butter, but for some reason I seem to tolerate mature coconut better still, within limits, and raw fermented coconut water (Kevita http://kevita.com/kevita%E2%84%A2-good-drink-raw-food-diet (http://kevita.com/kevita%E2%84%A2-good-drink-raw-food-diet)--there's no guarantee that it isn't heated at all, but if it's considered OK for raw foodists, then one would think that it's not heated above the level that most raw foodists consider raw), which is essentially extra-mature coconut water, best of all the coconut products. I'm thinking that I might be able to handle small amounts of a coconut butter or cream that's home-made from mature coconuts OK, though the concentrating of coconut oil does appear to be an issue for me above a certain point.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on June 27, 2012, 01:27:58 am
KeVita is at Sprouts and Whole Foods so I'm going to try it! I bet it's more like kombucha, miso, tamari etc. in that the base is not live but it is considered a live food because of the bacteria that is growing in it. That's a raw vegan thing that happens a lot. Live vs. Raw.

Sounds fun Phil - thanks for the link.

Btw - I get my coconut oil mostly through my skin. It "tastes" better that way. ;)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 27, 2012, 09:06:26 am
Hmm, good idea, thanks.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Chris on July 24, 2012, 04:48:04 am
Hi Phil, I was just checking out your Journal. I agree with you regarding Artisana "raw" coconut butter. I tried that a way's back and didn't like it at all. It had a dryness and grittiness to it I recall. I have tried different variation/brands of EV coconut oil. There all different on how they are made/produced. I never liked the fermented ones (nutiva), my system never agreed with them. Try the centrifuge extracted EV coconut oil. I found one from Wilderness Family Naturals (www.wildernessfamily.com (http://www.wildernessfamily.com)). It's actually a "raw" product, and is processed at low temperatures. I agree with you on the Raw coconut water also. I find that it just tastes better. My body seems to like it over the pasteurized versions out there much better. PS: I guess were all ginny pigs to a degree on this site. It's kind of hit or miss for lots of us. I look forward to what the next topic your going to tackle. I still have a lot of back reading to do, I'll try to catch up!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on July 24, 2012, 06:31:34 am
I tried the Kevita and spit it out.

 -v

To each their own, but I thought the stuff was vile.

Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Chris on July 24, 2012, 07:09:39 am
I tried the Kevita and spit it out.

 -v

To each their own, but I thought the stuff was vile.

LOL.... I've tried that before too. They sell it @ Whole Foods and Mother's Market out here. Not sure if Sprouts carries it? But I agree, I didn't like it either. It didn't do much for me @ all, to be quite honest with you! I think those drinks are a total ripoff.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 24, 2012, 07:19:56 am
Hi Phil, I was just checking out your Journal. I agree with you regarding Artisana "raw" coconut butter. I tried that a way's back and didn't like it at all. It had a dryness and grittiness to it I recall.
Yes, I found that too. I found that mixing it with water and honey improves it a bit, but it's still not great. Even small amounts of it also make me nauseous without the honey.

 I have tried different variation/brands of EV coconut oil. There all different on how there are made/produced. I never liked the fermented ones (nutiva)[/quote]Fermented coconut oil? Where can I buy it? I tend to find I digest raw fermented foods better than unfermented.

Quote
Try the centrifuge extracted EV coconut oil. I found one from Wilderness Family Naturals (www.wildernessfamily.com (http://www.wildernessfamily.com)). It's actually a "raw" product, and is processed at low temperatures.
Cool! thanks, what temp?

Quote
I agree with you on the Raw coconut water also. I find that it just tastes better. My body seems to like it over the pasteurized versions out there much better.
Yeah, the difference is pretty amazing. Coconut water is one of the foods that demonstrate dramatically the difference between truly raw and near-raw.

Quote
PS: I guess were all ginny pigs to a degree on this site. It's kind of hit or miss for lots of us. I look forward to what the next topic your going to tackle. I still have a lot of back reading to do, I'll try to catch up!
Neato, it's nice to find a kindred curious spirit.

I tried the Kevita and spit it out.

 -v

To each their own, but I thought the stuff was vile.
Was it the stevia flavor? It's funny, after you mentioned it, I find I'm noticing it more! Damn! I do find that to be the downside to it, but I was so thrilled that I finally found a coconut product I could digest well, and the stevia was sufficiently mild (it's the last ingredient) that I tolerated it. Sometimes I do add honey or other stuff to it when I don't want to taste the stevia. Interesting to find someone else who like me doesn't like stevia. People seem to rave about it on the Internet and I've never come across anyone else who doesn't like it. Too sweet and artificial-tasting for me (yes, I know stevia fans, it's not artificial, it just tastes like artificial stuff to me). Give me raw fermented honey over stevia any day.

LOL.... I've tried that before too. They sell it @ Whole Foods and Mother's Market out here. Not sure if Sprouts carries it? But I agree, I didn't like it either. It didn't do much for me @ all, to be quite honest with you! I think those drinks are a total ripoff.
Yeah, they are a ripoff, LOL, but I'm hoping they may improve my ability to digest coconut foods, which I find improve my BMs more than anything, but eating just a tad too much sends me quickly over the edge into nausea, diarrhea and even vomiting, so it's worth a try--time will tell. So far I haven't noticed anything, so I may give up soon. I guess I should have included more warnings for folks. Oh well, I guess now I've messed up like the folks who told me that Artisana stuff was great and I got sick as a result, LOL. Please forgive me.

I'll try to warn others better now--coconut products can be dangerous stuff, buyer beware! :)

BTW, I also tried store-bought kombucha and kefir and they made Kevita taste great in comparison. :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on July 24, 2012, 08:19:06 am
I love my home-made kombucha but the stuff in the store is so sweet it makes me spit too!

Quote
Was it the stevia flavor? It's funny, after you mentioned it, I find I'm noticing it more! Damn! I do find that to be the downside to it, but I was so thrilled that I finally found a coconut product I could digest well, and the stevia was sufficiently mild (it's the last ingredient) that I tolerated it. Sometimes I do add honey or other stuff to it when I don't want to taste the stevia. Interesting to find someone else who like me doesn't like stevia. People seem to rave about it on the Internet and I've never come across anyone else who doesn't like it. Too sweet and artificial-tasting for me (yes, I know stevia fans, it's not artificial, it just tastes like artificial stuff to me). Give me raw fermented honey over stevia any day.

I HATE stevia "products" but LOVE fresh raw stevia leaves! I bought a little plant and I pick the leaves and eat them with relish. Give me anything with that horrid powder in it though and  -v

I should have known better buying a drink with that as an ingredient - but like you said - last ingredient. Maybe I should put some honey in it. That's a good idea. I'll try it just so I don't waste that rip-off expensive bottle of blubby stuff.  l)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 03, 2012, 09:53:28 am
You've influenced me yet again, sweet Dorothy. I think I mentally mostly blocked out the bad taste of the stevia in Kevita because I was so excited to find a coconut product I could digest and now I notice it more and can't take it any more. I never noticed any benefit from the Kevita anyway and it's expensive, so you probably did me a service. I thought maybe it might help me digest other coconut foods after a while, but I never noticed any difference, so good riddance to it.

My local Healthy Living market had something in stock today I've never seen in a market before--wild blackberries! Yum, yum. More tart than the regular organic blackberries, but very flavorful and still delicious and a delightful change of pace. Healthy Living beats any market I've seen for high quality foods, including every farmer's market I've seen. Expensive, yes, but top rate. The owner(s) must be very knowledgeable.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on August 03, 2012, 12:13:35 pm
Wild Blackberries - Wow!

I bought some native low-growing "dewberries" which are basically the same thing as blackberries but a little more tart too - and they do make me feel amazing - a different effect than regular blackberries.

I'm jealous of that store you have there Phil!

I had coconut milk today from a young Thai coconut. It's funny but the Thai coconuts I've been getting from Whole Foods have been fine for me lately. I wonder if they aren't getting them from a new source now or maybe not irradiating? Or maybe I'm just a bit stronger? Coconut milk is such a wonderful taste. I hope that you can get to enjoy the real fresh stuff soon Phil. Good riddance to the fake stevias forever! LOL.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 03, 2012, 06:34:17 pm
I do drink coconut water from the Thai green coconuts some times and I can also buy bottles of 100% raw Thai coconut water if I want at the market (here's the brand: http://harmlesscoconut.com/Harmless_Coconut/home.html (http://harmlesscoconut.com/Harmless_Coconut/home.html)), but as I reported before, I digest the Kevita better than those or any other coconut foods I've tried so far. The fermenting apparently helps me digest it. If it didn't have stevia in it, it would be as good as it gets for me.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Chris on August 04, 2012, 01:44:04 am
I have tried different variation/brands of EV coconut oil. There all different on how there are made/produced. I never liked the fermented ones (nutiva)Fermented coconut oil? Where can I buy it? I tend to find I digest raw fermented foods better than unfermented.
Cool! thanks, what temp?

Hi Phil,

Here is some more info regarding Wilderness Family Naturals EV Coconut Oil.
The centrifuged virgin coconut oil is exposed to maximum temperatures of 40° C (about 104° F) and the cold-pressed coconut oil is processed at about 98.6° F or 37° C. Neither oil is exposed to extremely "low" or high temperatures. If you go to there website: www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com (http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com) ( I apologize Phil, I gave you the wrong web address, I forgot to add "Naturals" at the end) and go to the FAQ's you can get even more info regarding why this is the best EVCO in the market! I hope you give it a shot! My body seems to agree with this brand. Probably due to the extraction at lower temperatures. This is the ONLY EVCO I recommend!!!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on August 04, 2012, 01:54:37 am
Hey Phil - I was thinking of trying to ferment some fresh raw coconut water with a tiny bit of the kevita added as a starter. Have you tried this yet?

Chris - I'm definitely going to order some of that coconut oil in the winter. If I ordered it now by the time it got here it would be cooked in the back of the UPS truck even if the company kept it at the right temps! Thanks for that link.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 04, 2012, 06:18:07 am
Thanks for the additional info, Chris. It's so rare these days to find kindred spirits on the Internet who are more interested in sharing and learning than refuting and ridiculing. <thumbs up>

Hey Phil - I was thinking of trying to ferment some fresh raw coconut water with a tiny bit of the kevita added as a starter. Have you tried this yet?
I did and it was an utter failure. I learned that coconut water is difficult to ferment--one has to add sugar to have better chance of success, apparently. I tried adding the most highly-recommended maple syrup, with horrible results, and then decided that given this and my poor history with sugary fluids, it was best not to pursue this path further.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on August 04, 2012, 08:28:15 am
Oh - that's too bad Phil Glad I asked. I won't bother trying. The plain coconut water does so well for me that there's probably no real reason to even try anyhow. I just like playing with ferments. ;)

I did try kefir in coconut milk once and the concoction was something out of a horror movie.  :o



Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 20, 2012, 01:24:32 am
This morning as I was preparing to go kayaking on Lake Champlain, my nephew said he hoped I didn't fall into the cold water and laughed at the thought of such a calamity. I chuckled internally because I was planning to take an intentional dip, but didn't say anything, so as to surprise him. The water was wonderfully refreshing and actually not as cold as I had hoped. He was surprised when I returned and he learned that I had been swimming.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 21, 2012, 10:11:29 pm
I just had an excellent dental checkup, even though I went a week longer between visits than my normal 3 month cleaning (I go every 3 months because dental plaque accumulates rapidly on my teeth and I develop increasing gum inflammation). For the first time since it was noticed years ago, my cavity is showing signs of some healing (the fact that it had gone years without seriously deteriorating was amazing enough, but this is fabulous). There's still a hole, but the probe is no longer sticking when poked into it, which pleased the hygienist and perhaps means that the soft enamel has re-hardened somewhat, maybe even refilled-in a little? She also said that my gums are less inflamed and the cleaning was easier, quicker and less painful than before (though cleanings since I went LC cooked Paleo haven't been that bad, generally). It's particularly pleasing because I was a bit concerned when my last dental visit was worse than usual and the hygienist's probe seemed to stick more in my cavity than usual and she recommended getting a filling (which was first recommended to me around 4 years or so ago).

I had been eating more carby foods than I had in a long time at the time of my last dental visit, including some of the least-bad carby foods available at the cafeteria at work. I've tried to do a better job of bringing my own foods to work so I won't end up hungry and tempted by cafeteria foods and I cut back again somewhat on my carb intake (though I still eat the ones that I've found cause me the least problems) and increased my intake of soft animal foods.

The main reason I had increased my carby-food intake was due to the problem of constipation when eating too many animal foods, so I've tried to focus on eating soft, easily-digestible animal foods and including more animal fats, organs, bones, cartilage and gelatin in my diet. This has meant doing more heating/cooking than in the past, which I know is a cardinal sin here, but the benefits have outweighed the negatives by far. From the start my goal has been to maximize my health, wellbeing and happiness, not to commit to some dogma about 100% rawness.

One thing I noticed was to pay attention to certain signs. If there was lots of sticky white crud on my gumline in the morning and my mouth tasted and felt gross, then I found through experience that I wasn't eating right for my dental health, whereas if there was little crud, my mouth felt fresh in the morning and my teeth were smooth and polished, then I was on the right track.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on August 22, 2012, 11:37:52 am
I just had an excellent dental checkup, even though I went a week longer between visits than my normal 3 month cleaning (I go every 3 months because dental plaque accumulates rapidly on my teeth and I develop increasing gum inflammation). For the first time since it was noticed years ago, my cavity is showing signs of some healing (the fact that it had gone years without seriously deteriorating was amazing enough, but this is fabulous). There's still a hole, but the probe is no longer sticking when poked into it, which pleased the hygienist and perhaps means that the soft enamel has re-hardened somewhat, maybe even refilled-in a little? She also said that my gums are less inflamed and the cleaning was easier, quicker and less painful than before (though cleanings since I went LC cooked Paleo haven't been that bad, generally). It's particularly pleasing because I was a bit concerned when my last dental visit was worse than usual and the hygienist's probe seemed to stick more in my cavity than usual and she recommended getting a filling (which was first recommended to me around 4 years or so ago).

I had been eating more carby foods than I had in a long time at the time of my last dental visit, including some of the least-bad carby foods available at the cafeteria at work. I've tried to do a better job of bringing my own foods to work so I won't end up hungry and tempted by cafeteria foods and I cut back again somewhat on my carb intake (though I still eat the ones that I've found cause me the least problems) and increased my intake of soft animal foods.

The main reason I had increased my carby-food intake was due to the problem of constipation when eating too many animal foods, so I've tried to focus on eating soft, easily-digestible animal foods and including more animal fats, organs, bones, cartilage and gelatin in my diet. This has meant doing more heating/cooking than in the past, which I know is a cardinal sin here, but the benefits have outweighed the negatives by far. From the start my goal has been to maximize my health, wellbeing and happiness, not to commit to some dogma about 100% rawness.

One thing I noticed was to pay attention to certain signs. If there was lots of sticky white crud on my gumline in the morning and my mouth tasted and felt gross, then I found through experience that I wasn't eating right for my dental health, whereas if there was little crud, my mouth felt fresh in the morning and my teeth were smooth and polished, then I was on the right track.

I may have harped on this before, but have you tried vitamin D supplements?  I actually had the same problems with plaque as you did, before I starting vitamin D supplements.

I haven't been to the dentist in probably 5 years, and I have no noticeable tartar buildup.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 22, 2012, 06:48:32 pm
Yes, I take blue ice raw fermented cod liver oil and occasionally add some vitamin d gels, especially in the winter. Haven't noticed any difference in the plaque from it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 04, 2012, 05:54:13 am
Warning to sensitive raw Paleo purists, the following report may be upsetting:  >:  :o

It's hard to tell with accurate detail, but adding or increasing these foods seems to have provided more benefits to my dental health than just raw Paleo or raw Paleo plus RF CLO, vitamin D gels, minerals and Oxysulfur:

sardine soup  (heated in a crockpot on the warm setting)
marrow bone broth (heated in a crockpot on the warm setting)
liver cooked in bacon and garlic (I found it hard to get myself to eat enough raw, whereas cooked bacon and garlic give it a flavor that entices me to eat more)

This doesn't mean I think that humans are coctivores. Rather, the bone, joint, skin, and organ elements that these foods provide are less commonly available in raw foods and less enticing to my palate amongst the raw foods, so these are substitutes, and I have more dental and other damage to reverse than Paleolithic peoples normally would have had.

Plus I increased some of my raw Paleo foods:
raw fertilized eggs
raw suet (my intake had dropped and I ramped it back up after my dental health declined some)

The latter two foods seem to be my most beneficial so far.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on September 04, 2012, 09:46:18 am
Warning to sensitive raw Paleo purists, the following report may be upsetting:  >:  :o

It's hard to tell with accurate detail, but adding or increasing these foods seems to have provided more benefits to my dental health than just raw Paleo or raw Paleo plus RF CLO, vitamin D gels, minerals and Oxysulfur:

sardine soup  (heated in a crockpot on the warm setting)
marrow bone broth (heated in a crockpot on the warm setting)
liver cooked in bacon and garlic (I found it hard to get myself to eat enough raw, whereas cooked bacon and garlic give it a flavor that entices me to eat more)

This doesn't mean I think that humans are coctivores. Rather, the bone, joint, skin, and organ elements that these foods provide are less commonly available in raw foods and less enticing to my palate amongst the raw foods, so these are substitutes, and I have more dental and other damage to reverse than Paleolithic peoples normally would have had.

Plus I increased some of my raw Paleo foods:
raw fertilized eggs
raw suet (my intake had dropped and I ramped it back up after my dental health declined some)

The latter two foods seem to be my most beneficial so far.

I often notice less "dental crud", as you call it, the morning after eating some cooked food.

I fear the cooked food is just delaying the detox process. I don't think it provides any health benefits.

Are your experiences different?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on September 04, 2012, 04:27:35 pm
I've similarly noticed some increased dental health by eating cooked chicken bones from time to time. With some vinegar added and a bit of time, they soften and disolve at very low temperatures (I also put it on warm in the crockpot), so I don't think it's nearly bad as cooking can be (boiling, steaming, etc).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 05, 2012, 06:05:15 am
I often notice less "dental crud", as you call it, the morning after eating some cooked food.

I fear the cooked food is just delaying the detox process. I don't think it provides any health benefits.

Are your experiences different?
Yes, quite different. I notice plenty of dental crud from cooked foods other than those I mentioned and I've already experienced benefits since eating more of the foods I mentioned--a healing cavity, reduced gum inflammation, teeth that feel polished--and some that I didn't mention already, like less lower extremity edema, improved sleep, and feeling improved overall.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on September 06, 2012, 07:12:16 am
Next time I'm at a real loss for an insult, I'm going to call someone a "dirty coctivore" for kicks.

I've been making Brian slow cooked soups with marrow bone and seafood including scallops because I can't get him to eat it any other way. It sits with me quite well. 

I love how honest, open and truthful you are about your experiments on yourself Phil.

Thanks for that!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 06, 2012, 07:35:35 am
You're welcome, Dorothy, and thanks for understanding that I'm not trying to diss raw.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on September 06, 2012, 07:39:36 am
Yes, quite different. I notice plenty of dental crud from cooked foods other than those I mentioned and I've already experienced benefits since eating more of the foods I mentioned--a healing cavity, reduced gum inflammation, teeth that feel polished--and some that I didn't mention already, like less lower extremity edema, improved sleep, and feeling improved overall.

My mind is still open on the issue.

I will say that a universal issue with cooked food is a lack of aerobic stamina.  Eating a particular food raw instead of cooked will nearly always be better for aerobic stamina.

As for the specific foods you're trying, I'd watch carefully for this issue.  My guess is that, if you find it affecting your aerobic stamina, you may be causing some more hidden, gradual health issues.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 06, 2012, 07:59:19 am
I will say that a universal issue with cooked food is a lack of aerobic stamina.  Eating a particular food raw instead of cooked will nearly always be better for aerobic stamina.
I believe it, that's why I only use cooking where raw just doesn't prove practical or sufficient for me for whatever reason, such as the fact that I don't eat much of whole animal carcasses the way our ancestors likely would have. These cooked foods are stand-ins for me for certain raw ancestral foods that some people like myself otherwise wouldn't eat a lot of nowadays if we tried to eat 100% raw. Plus, I have particular dental issues that are rather high priority for me that these foods seem to be helping with. I'll take improved health over purity any day. KD, Lex, Dorothy and others seem to have a similar view on this (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Quote
As for the specific foods you're trying, I'd watch carefully for this issue.  My guess is that, if you find it affecting your aerobic stamina, you may be causing some more hidden, gradual health issues.
Thanks, haven't noticed that, luckily. As Lex says, if I notice any negative effects, I'll make a change. Coincidentally, Lex recently reported adding bouillon cubes and bouillon concentrate in heated broths and salt to his diet. I think I've mentioned it before, but I also occasionally add some unheated natural salt to some foods. It made some sense given that a chiropractor told me that I had an abnormally low sodium level based on a test he did and given that I don't eat much salt-containing blood like our ancestors likely did, plus reports by several sources that too-low salt levels can be harmful in the long run, and it adds a touch of taste variety that's pleasant, though not a necessity for me.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dorothy on September 07, 2012, 07:33:20 am
Realized after typing it all that the following post is quite long. Please let me know if you want me to edit it down for your journal Phil:
 

Yes Phil what you say is true for me. It's all about improving health and letting go of all preconceived ideas and beliefs to find out what actually works in the here and now with life and food as we can find it, afford it and tolerate it. Because we are not in raw paleo societies having eaten that way our whole lives we have to figure out what works the best for ourselves as individuals not only physically, but also in terms of our general life choices and needs. We all come to this diet with different genetics and histories and goals.

We were not raised raw paleo so that changes for us how we perceive different foods like organs taste-wise. I have very little access to organs and what I do have is frozen. Just like our ancestors we have to work with what we can get. In some ways, we're pretty lucky having the variety and resources that we do, in other ways we have more challenges. I'm pretty sure that fresh blood, organs and marrow taken directly out of a wild animal eaten warm on the spot after a lifetime of hunting along with everyone else would be a different experience than what we have to work with. 

I like how you look at trying to get as close as you can to what a complete paleo diet would have been in terms of making sure you are getting all the necessary components with as much raw as you can within the context of your life. You've taught me a great deal in this regard. Is it better to eat all raw and leave out some of the mainstay elements that our paleolithic ancestors would have had in their diets or is it better to use mild heat with water to make sure you get those elements? I think that is the question you are exploring here.

I can appreciate what you are doing completely. I know that if you ever were in a situation where you could get as much of these things as you need raw and fresh and could chew and tolerate them, you would choose that. You know that you are eating in a way that would not be the first choice if all other factors were lined up - but you ARE reaching your goals! That's what's really important.  Congratulations!

This discussion has made me think more about what I have available. The only whole animals I can get are Slanker's dog food and sometimes a whole fish. Neither Brian nor I can tolerate (modern wimps that we are) eating either of these things raw. But, now I have started to think that maybe if I could put these in a crockpot (not just the marrow and the meat of frozen seafood like I have been) it might be a very good way to get all the organs of the animals and minerals from bone that we are so sorely lacking in our diets right now. This way we could get the cartilage, the eyes, the brains, the adrenals - everything! We get none of these things now. Of course it isn't the best.... but I am starting to think that it's better than not having these things in our diets at all. I'm going to add Slanker's dog food along with the marrow bones to our next soup to try it! I'm going to put a whole fish in there when one is available. I'm going to try blending the fish like has recently been suggested elsewhere on the forum, but then adding it to the crock pot. I never thought of this before. Just adding the scallops and marrow into our diets seems to help Brian a good deal - imagine what getting all those organs might do!?

Just like it would be better if I had rain water, but I don't. So, instead I've been trying to think what I can do to create the best construction/compromise that I can. I think about what would be in rain water. Water on the earth would have lots of minerals - so I have to add clay and take minerals. Rain water would have hydrogen peroxide in it where my water doesn't, so I am starting to add a tiny bit of h202 to my water in order to approximate. I'm not out searching for food getting exercise so I have my exercise machine. I'm not sleeping on uneven ground so I have my bed at an incline. Sure I would be better off living truly naturally - but I'm doing the best I can to recreate the fundamentals within the context of my modern life.

Most everything -- if we are not living outside, sleeping on the ground, living naked in the sun  and hunting down our food full time in a pristine environment -- is an approximation -- acts of just trying to get a bit closer to things that we know are lacking to create health.

If it's working - it's working. It's good to be grateful for anything we can find or do that actually works!

I think of this as a place where people come to share what they've tried and report what has worked and what has not - as a kind of collective experiment. But often we don't know when something stopped working for someone. I appreciate that you keep on coming back and updating the changes to your diet and their effects over time.
 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on September 15, 2012, 09:10:42 pm
I think I've mentioned it before, but I also occasionally add some unheated natural salt to some foods. It made some sense given that a chiropractor told me that I had an abnormally low sodium level based on a test he did and given that I don't eat much salt-containing blood like our ancestors likely did, plus reports by several sources that too-low salt levels can be harmful in the long run, and it adds a touch of taste variety that's pleasant, though not a necessity for me.

I do use salt every once in a while.  I do notice that my taste for it goes away after a few days, only to come back after a few months.  I imagine my use of salt has become pretty instinctive, and that my taste for it pretty closely mirrors my need for it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 30, 2012, 09:24:31 am
I thought that too until I was tested. Of course, there's the possibility that what are considered "normal" salt levels are actually too high or that the test was faulty.

I discovered what looks like Japanese barberry by the river today (unfortunately, if so, it's an invasive plant). Its berries were pretty tasty; nicely tart with some sweetness. They are reportedly very high in vitamin C.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 21, 2012, 07:51:11 am
Recently, my feet have been stronger, not becoming as easily injured from walking barefoot or in barefoot-style shoes on hard surfaces like cement. I have been consuming more bone broths/stews/soups recently (not heated above the "warm" setting of my crockpot). Whether this is coincidence or something more, I do not know. It is a blessing either way.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 08, 2013, 08:29:59 am
Yesterday and today I tried testing my blood oxygen saturation level with a pulse oximeter for the first time in quite a while and it's up another notch to consistently 99%, vs. in the past when it was usually 98% (though occasionally 99%). Here's to hoping that I can hit Dorothy's 100% level in the future.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on January 08, 2013, 11:52:37 pm
Yesterday and today I tried testing my blood oxygen saturation level with a pulse oximeter for the first time in quite a while and it's up another notch to consistently 99%, vs. in the past when it was usually 98% (though occasionally 99%). Here's to hoping that I can hit Dorothy's 100% level in the future.

I used to work with a woman who smoked, but whose blood oxygen levels were consistently around 99-100%, whereas mine (at the time--I was raw vegan) were around 97%-98%.

Embarrassing.  ROFL

I'm not sure whether that shows that the raw vegan diet is kind of a failure, or that her genetics were just better.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 09, 2013, 09:06:40 am
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. How often did she smoke? It's also curious that my blood oxygen level improved even though I've been consuming some coffee and butter, which contain the dreaded AGEs. It has been hypothesized that low levels of all sorts of deadly poisons can actually improve the health, depending on the individual, even small amounts of smoking have been connected to improved health, though I don't recall if it was in humans or lab rats.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on January 09, 2013, 11:20:02 am
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. How often did she smoke? It's also curious that my blood oxygen level improved even though I've been consuming some coffee and butter, which contain the dreaded AGEs. It has been hypothesized that low levels of all sorts of deadly poisons can actually improve the health, depending on the individual, even small amounts of smoking have been connected to improved health, though I don't recall if it was in humans or lab rats.

I don't know if she inhaled or not.  I didn't watch her closely when she smoked.  People who don't inhale generally don't have nearly as much lung damage and other health problems.

As to how often, probably at least half a pack a day, if I had to guess. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 24, 2013, 01:16:53 am
I tried raw Brazil nuts because of high selenium content, as a relatively healthful and convenient snack food for work, and as a diet expander/diversifier (for a number of reasons). I discovered an unexpected benefit from it--it works better on constipation for me than anything else I've tried (and I've tried a lot). I hadn't seen this connection made before, so my openness to continued personal experimentation paid off.

For me, raw Brazil nuts have been much more gentle and effective than the legume fruit cassia fistula that has been touted by some at this forum. They also worked much better than raw cashew nuts, though those also provided some benefit. The downside of Brazil nuts is that they are excessively high in omega 6 fat and selenium and addictive, so there's the possibility of overdoing it. Thus, I try not to buy too much at once.

My recent dental visit was excellent. I was a bit concerned, because I went nearly 7 months between cleanings instead of the usual 3, which is the longest I've gone in quite some time, but I still had less dental plaque, bleeding and pain (almost no pain at all and the cleaning actually felt good at times, like a gum massage) than in years past at 3-month cleanings. Still no sign of worsening of my dental carie (a dentist told me to get it filled back in 2008 and said that it would get very bad soon if I didn't), though it didn't improve any further this time, like it had at the last visit. So bone broths/soups/stews and animal fats, including even butter, still seem to be quite beneficial for my dental health.

My dentist recommended coconut oil swishing/pulling. I had forgotten about my coconut oil (a centrifuged version by Wilderness Family Naturals that is less heated and tastier than pressed extra virgin olive oils), because I was keeping it in the cupboard. I decided to keep it in my bathroom as a daily reminder. It works better than mouthwash. By accident I found that leaving cut up coconut meat on the kitchen counter instead of the fridge dries it nicely, preserving it better than refrigeration (where mold is a big risk) and making it a bit tastier and easier to digest than fresh coconut.

Butter coffee and butter tea seem to have made maintaining dental health easier for me and I think they were the key addition that enabled me to go 4 more months between cleanings. I don't claim that they are raw Paleo or optimal, but they are another convenient way for me to keep my intake of animal fat up. I do minimize the heating--just enough to be able to melt the butter in a reasonable amount of time. I buy lightly roasted whole coffee beans, soak them overnight in a French press, then lightly heat it in the microwave and add butter. I tend to heat the tea more to make a black tea (usually assam tea, aka "breakfast tea") strong enought that it will keep some tea flavor with butter added. I may start soaking that overnight too at some point to reduce the amount of heating necessary. Interestingly, the less I heat coffee or tea, the less belching it causes. On days I drink butter coffee/tea my teeth are squeaky clean, like I just got home from the dentist's office (and even cleaner if I eat plenty of raw suet instead or in addition).

I'm digesting raw sauerkraut better and enjoying it more, especially with Gold's home style horseradish added. Now I understand first-hand why some people love sauerkraut so much. It required some adaptation, I hope beneficial, for me.

I love the way that raw parsnips get my saliva juices flowing and spices up my saliva, enabling me to savor the spicey parsnip flavor well after I've finished eating them. The thicker parts of parsnip roots are less tasty, so I throw those in the slow cooker (I know, evil cooking) along with other veggie scraps and bones to make bone broths/soups. I think I'll start experimenting with soaking my broths too, to see how little cooking I can get away with and still get a decent broth out of it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on March 24, 2013, 02:17:27 am
PaleoPhil, what do you mean by teeth cleaning? I don't remember ever doing any teeth cleaning, when I go to the dentist he checks if any fillings are necessary or not and that's about it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on March 24, 2013, 06:13:58 am
Are you gaining any weight?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 25, 2013, 03:25:04 am
PaleoPhil, what do you mean by teeth cleaning? I don't remember ever doing any teeth cleaning, when I go to the dentist he checks if any fillings are necessary or not and that's about it.
Doesn't the hygienist clean your teeth before the dentist checks them? They use various implements, so it depends on whatever that particular office uses. At the one I'm currently going to, the hygienist uses a high-pressure water-pik-type device, then some plaque scraping/scaling and probing with metal devices, then flossing, then probing for cavities, and then the dentist follows up with probing and looking for issues, usually confirming what the hygienist reports.

Are you gaining any weight?
Not recently. My budget is real tight since I bought a condo, so that hasn't been a focus lately.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on March 25, 2013, 11:50:09 pm
Quote
Not recently. My budget is real tight since I bought a condo, so that hasn't been a focus lately.

Awesome time to buy property.  Congrats!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 26, 2013, 05:27:35 am
Thanks
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 31, 2013, 03:05:45 am
Quote
“Life’s Mysteries" by Kun-Gay Yap in Reality Beyond Belief: Understanding Why You Believe What You Believe:

"There is so much we could or should know but each of us has only the slightest sliver of what there is to know. This individual ignorance ensures that most of existence is a mystery for each of us, creating much awe and wonder even though it is everyday knowledge for others. The compulsion to solve such ‘mysteries’ ensures the invention of belief even though there exists quite ordinary explanations. Such ‘mysteries’ excite the mind, and the ‘solutions’ which we so ably discover or invent, please the brain.* Many fanciful and thrilling explanations are invented and held as glorious truths even though the facts are plain and mundane."

[* Footnote: "The most preposterous inventions tend to attract the most devout belief. Later a parallel is drawn between such unlikely beliefs and a high-risk gamble which may have a huge payout. Some of them may even be Black Swan events, (a theory of unexpected yet world-changing events developed by Nassim Nicholas Taleb in his book The Black Swan.) Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory.)”]
I find that recognizing the infinite complexity of the universe, being able to accept the fact of my general ignorance, and questioning assumptions (including my own) helps to avoid this error.

Quote
"{O}ne must attend in medical practice not primarily to plausible theories but to experience combined with reason." - Hippocrates, Precepts, Ch. 1, as translated by W. H. S. Jones (1923).
This quote matches my general experience. While I enjoy learning about scientific research and theories and know they have their place, I have actually benefited much more from keeping an open and questioning mind, not blindly accepting views that are commonplace among scientists as dogma, from observations and self-reports of people's actual experience, especially time-tested heuristics that fit into the evolutionary model, and testing the most plausible ones and observing my own experience, in a sort of mad-scientist experimental-science way.

I didn't seek out this approach. On the contrary, it found me after I first tried following the advice and prescriptions of physicians, a certified nutritionist, other "experts" and consensus scientific views. I ended up with the mad scientist experiment and heuristics approach by default, resulting in such radical therapies as a mostly raw ancestral diet (considered bad or even insane by most scientists and "experts") and fermented and probiotic foods, because it's what actually worked for me after trying everything else.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 12, 2013, 09:09:50 pm
Eggs, lemons and even pickled horseradish now taste sweet to me. Some scientists have hypothesized that this occurs when the brain connects the flavor of a strong-tasting food to some nutrients the brain has come to recognize via evolutionary adaptation as beneficial, such as carbs, fats, phytonutrients, vitamins and minerals. Another hypothesis is hormetic robustification to small amounts of toxins, such as the plant toxins/medicines in bitter plant foods like horseradish and other mustard/brassicaceae/crucifer veggies, dark leafy greens, bitter melon, cranberries, etc.  (ie, what doesn't kill me makes me stronger).

I bought some Farmers old fashioned prepared horseradish that includes mustard oil and is thus much spicier than regular pickled horseradish and tastes like the regular product used to taste to me. It very similar in strength to wasabi mustard, so it may make for a cheaper alternative to that for me, though it's too early to tell.

Interestingly, mustard oil is used in ayurvedic medicine and is similar to Lorenzo's oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_oil)), though the benefits of Lorenzo's oil could be due to the hormetic effect of small amounts of toxins, and while mustard oil is much lower in omega 6 fats than other plant oils, it still contains more than omega 3 and is probably most often a heated and refined product, so I don't intend to consume large amounts of mustard oil.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 19, 2013, 09:12:47 pm
I think someone asked me a question about Brazil nut selenium content that I accidentally deleted prematurely. A single Brazil nut contains more than the recommended Daily Value of selenium, though I currently average more than one a day. They're also high in phytic acid and omega 6, so buyer beware. There's also plenty of info on Brazil nuts on the Internet that one can Google.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 26, 2013, 06:37:50 am
I created a yummy new drink concoction on a whim, containing some of my favorite ingredients: lemon juice, lime juice and Farmers' brand super-hot horseradish. Yum! Not for the faint of heart.  ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 13, 2013, 07:36:22 pm
I stumbled on an old post in which I said I wasn't interested in earthing. It was an exaggeration. I had a little interest, I just wasn't interested in watching a David Wolfe video on it or getting into a discussion on it at the time, it was off-topic, I figured I was already getting some earthing via barefooting, and most of the people I'd seen promote it were quacks like Wolfe. After that I read a bit more on it, including quickly scanning some studies, saw more credible people write positively about it, and my interest is growing.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 18, 2013, 10:42:14 am
Got a blood test today:

Random Blood Glucose: 92
Total cholesterol: 238 (up from 169)
HDL: 81 (up from 66)
TC/HDL: 2.9 (up from 2.6)

I've been eating higher-fat, which raised my HDL up to its highest ever, but also my TC to one of the highest measures ever, maybe highest, though I don't remember the highest past #. The TC/HDL rose a bit and the TC is still below what the Technician considered a danger level of 240. I ate a fatty lunch beforehand. I wonder if that had any effect. Overall I'm pleased to see the HDL # up and not too concerned about the TC as long as it doesn't continue to rise.

Here's a question from the BCBS health assessment. There was NO option for zero grains:

Breads and Grains
* 3.5) Indicate the kinds of breads and grains you usually eat.

a) nearly always eat refined grain products
b) eat mostly refined grain products, some whole-grain
c) eat both about the same
d) eat primarily whole-grain products, some refined
e) eat only whole-grain products

Here is the macronutrient recommendation:

Carbs: 50% (342.62 grams/day)
Protein: 20% (137.05 grams/day)
Fat: 30% (91.37 grams/day)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 18, 2013, 11:47:53 am
Good, Phil.  I don't know if the fatty meal had an influence on your cholesterol.  Fat usually digests slowly, so it might depend on how long before the test you ate.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 20, 2013, 07:48:58 am
Thanks, the other major change I can think of is the addition to butter (mostly Kerrygold) in my diet. I notice that many butter eaters report very high total cholesterol, so I wonder if it ups serum cholesterol (and maybe HDL) more than other animal fats.

"[Nassim Taleb's] barbell approach ... is [that] a bit of two extremes is better than ... sitting in the middle" - Rory Sutherland Nassim Nicholas Taleb and Oglivy's Rory Sutherland on risk Cannes Lions 2013 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdfWdrDbCcc#ws)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 20, 2013, 10:16:40 am
"I'll pursue a policy of reconciliation and peace. We will also reconcile with the world." - Hasan Rowhani, newly elected President of Iran

"Probably no country in the world is more mischaracterized in Western eyes than Iran. Most Americans' perceptions of Iran are limited to images of President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad delivering anti-American speeches and crowds chanting "Death to America!" with the blessing of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khameini. Yet a 2009 World Public Opinion poll found that 51 percent of Iranians hold a favorable opinion of Americans, a number consistent with other polls, meaning that Americans are more widely liked in Iran than anywhere else in the Middle East [after Israel]." http://tinyurl.com/a33fy9u (http://tinyurl.com/a33fy9u)

Iran/Persia is a natural ally of the USA (http://tinyurl.com/lyoxvf4 (http://tinyurl.com/lyoxvf4)). I hope we are returning to our traditional friendship after an ugly period.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: ys on June 20, 2013, 11:05:11 pm
Iran was a long time US ally.  Even had normal relations with Israel.  Muslim revolution changed all of that.  US had no choice but to look somewhere else.  That's why we are with Saudis now.  US cannot have normal relations with both since they are direct rivals.  It either one or the other.

Iran also aligns with Russia and somewhat with China. Iran also can't have it both ways.
And there is no such thing as friendship between nations. Nothing personal, it's just business.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: LePatron7 on June 20, 2013, 11:45:37 pm
I think someone asked me a question about Brazil nut selenium content that I accidentally deleted prematurely. A single Brazil nut contains more than the recommended Daily Value of selenium, though I currently average more than one a day. They're also high in phytic acid and omega 6, so buyer beware. There's also plenty of info on Brazil nuts on the Internet that one can Google.

Where did you find raw brazil nuts? The info I've seen online says anything unshelled isn't raw.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: van on June 21, 2013, 12:15:50 am
try nutsonline.com
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 21, 2013, 08:35:36 am
Hi YS, whether it's called friendship or business, I'm hoping the relationship will return to where it was before the recent aberration or better. You're right that Iran was a long time US ally before the US also had diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia and even with both at the same time (1933 - 1979, before the Iranian revolution). So history shows these relationships are not necessarily mutually exclusive unless we choose to make them so and dismiss the possibility without trying it.

Hi DaBoss, I was just using the term "raw" that markets use to distinguish nuts from the roasted varieties. Van is right that raw purists can buy truly raw Brazil nuts in the shell at

http://www.nuts.com/nuts/brazilnuts/in-the-shell.html (http://www.nuts.com/nuts/brazilnuts/in-the-shell.html)

I found that if I overdo it on Brazil nuts I develop small patches of itchy or dry skin, which is a good incentive for me to not overdo it.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 22, 2013, 07:48:38 am
I added P5P (a highly bioavailable version of vitamin B6) to my regimen and starting on Monday, June 17, 2013 I read up on the recommended dose for people with "pyroluria" and started taking 150 - 200 mg per day, spread out in 50 mg tablet doses, with noticeable benefits within 24 hours. Since then I've noticed that I have less muscle tension at the end of the day, even after a whole day of sitting at a PC in a chair at work and even if I eat significant carbs, somewhat increased appetite, cleaner/smoother teeth, better mental clarity and performance, and mild to moderate euphoria at times (especially the first couple of days about an hour or so after taking the P5P). I even tested drinking alcohol (mead) with it and found that I had less negative symptoms the next morning (speculating--possibly due to fewer pyrroles in the urine accumulated overnight in my bladder?)--almost no symptoms. Amazing results so far.

High intake of vitamin B6 seems to be one of the key remaining elements I was needing and missing. Some writings on pyroluria, such as by Nora Gedgaudas, were helpful in pointing me to it. I had tried B6 in the past, but apparently at too low a dose and not sufficiently absorbable a form for it to make a difference. I'm trying not to get overly excited about it, because short term benefits don't always pan out in the longer run.

The benefits of P5P have been so remarkable so far, that it will take quite a bit of discipline not to take high doses every day. After a bit I'm going to try to use a more intermittent approach, to see if I can avoid coddling my system and thus possibly avoid further reducing my body's ability to produce B6.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: LePatron7 on June 23, 2013, 09:39:16 am
I found that if I overdo it on Brazil nuts I develop small patches of itchy or dry skin, which is a good incentive for me to not overdo it.

Do you soak them? I'm ordering a couple pounds now.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 23, 2013, 10:24:33 am
I added P5P (a highly bioavailable version of vitamin B6) to my regimen and starting on Monday, June 17, 2013 I read up on the recommended dose for people with "pyroluria" and started taking 150 - 200 mg per day, spread out in 50 mg tablet doses, with noticeable benefits within 24 hours. Since then I've noticed that I have less muscle tension at the end of the day, even after a whole day of sitting at a PC in a chair at work and even if I eat significant carbs, somewhat increased appetite, cleaner/smoother teeth, better mental clarity and performance, and mild to moderate euphoria at times (especially the first couple of days about an hour or so after taking the P5P). I even tested drinking alcohol (mead) with it and found that I had less negative symptoms the next morning (speculating--possibly due to fewer pyrroles in the urine accumulated overnight in my bladder?)--almost no symptoms. Amazing results so far.



Keep us posted.  This sounds interesting. Where did you get your P5P?  How much did it cost?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 23, 2013, 09:15:11 pm
I didn't soak the Brazil nuts, as I suspected that the plant toxins helped get things moving. It's not a sustainable long-term strategy, so I've been looking for other better solutions. If P5P helps with constipation, as I've since learned it can, I may not need to use the nuts therapeutically any more. P5P has some of the quickest and most dramatic benefits of any therapy I've tried.

I bought the P5P at the local Vitamin Shoppe. The sales clerk recommended it as the best version of B6, which my later Googling confirmed.  http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-1266#.UcZeDPnCYqI (http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-1266#.UcZeDPnCYqI)  $11.99 for 100 50 mg tablets.

I serendipitously stumbled on the B6 connection to constipation. I had started taking P5P due to many interesting connections between my chronic symptoms, personal and family history, and "pyroluria." I had investigated pyroluria before years ago when I noticed interesting correlations in the reported symptoms, but there was scarce info on it and most of it dismissed the concept and therapies as quackery. I had even tried B6 before, but bought a standard cheap version and used the recommended dose and didn't notice anything from it.

Now there is more info on the Internet about pyroluria (though still not a lot and much of it vague or dismissive). I had discovered before that it was only after I took much more than the suggested dosage on the bottles that I benefited from zinc and potassium supplements and that the more bioavailable chelated forms of zinc produced none of the nausea that cheap forms did. So I decided that maybe this could be the case for B6 too. This time I asked for the most bioavailable version and Googled for dosage recommendations for people with pyroluria. Sure enough, the suggested dosages for pyroluria were far higher than the doses on the bottle and there were multiple reports that people with pyroluria don't notice any improvement at standard doses, but people with substantial pyrroles will tend to notice dramatic improvement at high doses within a day. This all proved true for me.

I noticed one morning after taking my highest total daily dose of P5P (200 mg spread throughout the day), that I had a stronger than normal morning peristalsis signal (it's normally weak to nonexistent for me without helps like a large breakfast) and better movement. I hadn't seen a connection made between pyroluria and chronic constipation before, but I Googled it and several sources did report constipation (especially morning constipation with nausea and lack of morning appetite) and IBS. I had all these symptoms in the past--IBS-C with little or no peristalsis, morning constipation which later became constipation throughout the day and eventually IBS-C with intermittent diarrhea. Cutting out gluten improved this to just constipation with slightly better peristalsis. P5P seems to be further helping.

IBS vitamin B6 constipation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq2Xvz6xIQM#ws)

I've long suspected that something is interfering with my neural signals and thus preventing much of the normal peristalsis signal, and this notion of pyrroles seems to fit with that. I'm speculating, but if this pyroluria thing is real, then perhaps something like this is the scenario--pyrroles block neural signals including peristalsis signals, B6 binds with the pyrroles, clearing up the neural blockages and enabling the peristalsis signals to get through. I've also noticed improved mental clarity and better short-term memory, including of dreams, since taking P5P.

I've also noticed that various therapies, such as going gluten-free, then going Paleo, then going LC Paleo, then raw LC Paleo, have excellent short-term effects for me, including often some euphoria in the early days, but then some of the old symptoms gradually start to creep back--so subtly it's almost imperceptible until it gets bad enough to notice. I now suspect that the beneficial therapies reduce the level of pyrroles and other toxins in my system short-term, but then they gradually increase again. By focusing more directly on the pyrroles (assuming I have them), it may have more impact, and so far that seems to be proving out.

Another thing I've noticed over the years that I so far haven't found any info on, is that if I eat more of certain carby foods or alcohol (especially certain types of alcohol, with certain brands of mead and unfiltered sake being less of a problem), the next morning a full bladder of urine will be quite irritating and my flanks (kidneys?) may also ache. The discomfort largely or totally goes away after morning urination. Perhaps that irritation is caused by accumulated pyrroles in the urine? If I take plenty of P5P, that bladder irritation is largely or totally avoided, even if I drink alcohol the previous evening, which I put to the test.

I think I'm on to something here. This so far seems to be the biggest breakthrough for me since trying gluten-free and Paleo.

The odd thing about this pyroluria thing is that there is so little on it, the studies didn't support it, and there aren't many success stories. People post on forums or in blogs that they are going to try it or are having early success, then they stop posting. I discovered that even Chris MasterJohn reported years ago that pyroluria therapy was very beneficial for him, and he wrote a couple of snippets relevant to it, but he didn't continue to write about this. It's rather mysterious and puzzling. Do people later learn that it doesn't help long-term? Did Chris stop writing about it once he started working toward a PhD, for fear of getting in trouble because pyroluria is regarded as quack nonsense in academia?

P5P has been having more benefit re: dental scum than anything I've tried so far. I've also read that pyroluria patients tend to have too high omega 3 and too low omega 6. That would explain why RF CLO only seemed to have minor benefit--which could have all been due to other things I was doing. So I'm going to try the pyroluria therapy and go against standard Paleo recommendations and up my omega 6 intake while cutting back on omega 3. Interestingly, an important animal form of omega 6--arachidonic acid--has become popular with bodybuilders in recent years as a muscle booster (via hormetic stressing of muscle tissue).

Arachidonic acid is reportedly a key part of the anabolic process of muscle repair, healing and building. Arachidonic acid deficiency would fit with my lifelong undermuscling and below-normal response to weight lifting. It would also explain why eggs, liver and red meat seem to be some of my best foods.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 23, 2013, 09:42:45 pm
I'm glad this is working for you, Phil.  Keep us posted.

In most cases, vitamin/mineral supplementation has less dramatic effects over time, with any individual supplement.  However, sometimes the improvements are permanent.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on June 23, 2013, 09:50:10 pm
Quote
I've also noticed that various therapies, such as going gluten-free, then going Paleo, then going LC Paleo, then raw LC Paleo, have excellent short-term effects for me, including often some euphoria in the early days, but then some of the old symptoms gradually start to creep back--so subtly it's almost imperceptible until it gets bad enough to notice.
Same here, it's a lot of placebo. I hope the pyroluria therapy is not just placebo for you though.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 23, 2013, 09:58:30 pm
@cherimoya
Yes, I've already noticed that I'm no longer getting much of the early euphoria I got from taking P5P. I have noticed that the early responses to both dietary and supplement therapy are generally dramatic and then lessen over time and I doubt that pyroluria is going to be the full puzzle, but it (or something like it) so far appears to be another key element.

@ aLptHW4k4y
It is wise to take a long-term perspective and I do always consider the possibility of a placebo effect, as well as random coincidence, in addition to the common lessening of therapeutic benefit over time, and try not to get too excited. I can't write it all off to placebo at this point though, because there have been several benefits I had not read about or expected that I Googled and found to be reported by others. I also forgot to take a couple doses of P5P one day and didn't realize it until I started to feel increasing muscle discomfort again and wondered why. I was puzzled, because I thought I had taken the P5P. Then I discovered that I had set out the tablets but was interrupted with a distraction and forgot to actually take them. Once I started taking them regularly again, I again improved.

---

My patches of dry, itchy skin while eating Brazil nuts have me suspecting that I'm more sensitive than avg to phytates, which fits with the deficiency in zinc and other minerals in pyroluria that would otherwise mitigate harm from phytates by binding with them. Plus, I was trying both the Brazil nuts and green coffee mainly to see if it would improve peristalsis (as well as possible benefits from fiber or hormetic anti-aging medicinal plant toxins), whereas P5P is looking more promising for that now. I found that coffee is also high in phytates, so I'm going to stop experimenting with both Brazil nuts and green coffee for now.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 24, 2013, 08:45:47 am
The latest improvement on  a partial application of pyroluria therapy is that my day vision (myopia) also seems to be improving along with my night vision. I am now able to read this text on the PC with an old weaker eyeglass prescription for the first time in years (probably more than a decade) after about a week on an only partial application of the pyroluria therapy. The reversal of years of vision acuity decline in a matter of days is quite unexpected. These are so far the most remarkable results I've had since eliminating gluten from my diet back in 2004 (knock on wood  ;D ).

Still, I'm trying not to get carried away with excitement, because my vision also improved like this in 2004 after going gluten-free and then it gradually declined again over the years to the point where recently my newest, stronger eyeglass Px had been getting too weak and I was having to sit closer to projector screens to read the presentations on them.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 24, 2013, 10:03:12 am
Brazil nuts might theoretically help pyroluria with their selenium and phytate (which could bind with copper, but also with zinc) content, but I'm going to avoid them for at least a while, because I doubt my zinc and overall mineral status and antioxidant levels are sufficient yet to handle them well and I'm getting better results from other things like P5P.

Here's a link to Nora Gedgaudas' pyroluria questionnaire and some of the questions for anyone interested in seeing if it might apply to them:

PYROLURIA QUESTIONNAIRE

1. Little or no dream recall

2. White spots on finger nails

3. Poor morning appetite +/- tendency to skip breakfast

4. Morning nausea

5. Pale skin +/- poor tanning +/- burn easy in sun

6. Sensitivity to bright light

7. Hypersensitive to loud noises

...

read more at http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398 (http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 24, 2013, 10:34:28 am
Tonight my oral temp and resting pulse are up into the range that Ray Peat and Danny Roddy recommend for the first time I can recall.

99.3 F oral temp.
BP 123/86
resting pulse 81

I don't have a fever, I feel improved and I suspect that Peat and Roddy are right about this and conventional wisdom wrong. I didn't do it the way that they recommended, though there are interesting overlaps between what we're doing, as I've posted about before in another thread somewhere. I've even been following Danny's blog with interest, despite his recent frequent trashing of Paleo in general--or at least the way it's currently commonly practiced, which is a bit different than what I've been doing. For example, I eat raw fermented honey and Kerrygold butter, which is apparently OK with Danny but not with most Paleo people.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 25, 2013, 08:29:05 am
. For example, I eat raw fermented honey and Kerrygold butter, which is apparently OK with Danny but not with most Paleo people.

Honey isn't OK with Paleo people?  I urge people to use concentrated sweet foods like honey in moderation, but I eat it myself sometimes, and I think it can be a good adjunct to the usual diet of meat/fruit/fish that I normally eat.  Honey's been in the human diet for a long time.  Honeybees are from Africa, and even today many Africans eat wild honey regularly. We are all Africans, even though we've mixed with other hominid groups like Neanderthals, and honey-eating is in our history.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 25, 2013, 07:12:26 pm
Nonetheless, if you check other Paleo forums and blogs beyond this one, you'll find honey often regarded rather negatively. One "Paleo" diet software program I tried even said that my diet isn't Paleo at all because I eat some honey. I've seen "Paleo" people who continue to eat honey called "sugar addicts." That's probably a factor, yet it seems one-sided, because I've never seen those who say they can't live without bacon or butter called "fat addicts." Plus, regardless of whether sugar addiction played a role or not in why I tried raw honeys, fermented raw honey provides me with skin and hair benefits and the experienced positives appear to outweigh the theoretical negatives.

Ironically, many of the same people who criticize honey as not Paleo or addictive advocate for carbs being crucial. I tested all the carb foods I could and found fermented honey to be one of my best tolerated of all, more so than cooked "safe starches". So their own macronutrient advice points me to eating (fermented) honey.

There's an interesting phenomenon in Paleo circles where something negative is discovered about a food, it becomes declared "not Paleo" and possibly even demonized, and then later on some people start reporting positive stuff about the food and saying that people are going overboard, and it gradually becomes somewhat rehabilitated. On the flip side, other foods that were once generally regarded as "Paleo" and healthy have come into question. Throughout it all, it seems that honey has pretty consistently been regarded as at best a treat, despite the fact that every HG people that eats it regards it as a food.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 28, 2013, 11:58:23 am


There's an interesting phenomenon in Paleo circles where something negative is discovered about a food, it becomes declared "not Paleo" and possibly even demonized, and then later on some people start reporting positive stuff about the food and saying that people are going overboard, and it gradually becomes somewhat rehabilitated. On the flip side, other foods that were once generally regarded as "Paleo" and healthy have come into question. Throughout it all, it seems that honey has pretty consistently been regarded as at best a treat, despite the fact that every HG people that eats it regards it as a food.

HG peoples are generally eating grubcomb, are they not?

And it amazes me how much you keep up with other dietary forums and youtube posts, etc.. I guess I was like that more in the past, but now I'm lazy.  I let people like you bring all the new/useful stuff to this forum, where I can be exposed to it effortlessly. ROFL
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 28, 2013, 11:59:45 am
is the P5P still getting it done for you, Phil?  My wife and I tried it for a couple of days, but we didn't notice anything. What brand are you using?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 28, 2013, 07:17:55 pm
Yeah, HGs eat grubcomb, which is something I've talked about in this forum.

There are some tools that I find work much better for enabling other people to tip me off quickly about the latest best info than relying on a single forum. Some of it I learned about from Tim Ferris and Nassim Taleb. When I first read this forum, I read a lot of the threads, as there was a lot for me to learn.

I only read a small fraction of the threads in the forum now, as I find a lot of them to be the same old same old at this point and every forum engages in some groupthink and confirmation bias, though this forum is still the best for me because it focuses more on unusual stuff that other forums would just dismiss or ignore, and not just because it fits well with my diet. I also often listen to podcasts, including some Paleo podcasts, while walking to and from work, and the podcasters also tend to also tip me off about other stuff that they have read or heard about.

Presumably the biggest impact from P5P/B6 will happen for those who are most deficient. The effect from P5P for me now seems less dramatic than at first, which seems to be the case with pretty much anything, but it does still seem to be beneficial. I take a rather high dose, which I started doing initially because I didn't know that P5P is 5x more potent than ordinary B6. So far no negative side effects of overdose. I also started taking some of it as ordinary B6, because that is recommended, though I don't notice any additional benefit from doing that.

I've started remembering more bits of dreams and they seem to be getting a bit more pleasant, which is supposed to mean that my B6 is approaching a good level. However, it could be just because I'm paying more attention to dreams after reading about this, but I suppose time will tell.

My pulse was back down to 54 last night and my body temp at 97.8 F was below the peak, though still higher than my past avg, so maybe my high measures were a coincidental fluke. I don't want to track every number here like Lex did for a while, but I'll try to remember to report interesting trends.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 29, 2013, 10:26:30 am
Keep us posted. This is definitely worth watching.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 29, 2013, 10:01:54 pm
This morning I used my plaque scraper that I use every few days to scrape off some accumulated dental plaque and this time the plaque came off easier than ever and left me with cleaner teeth than I've ever had aside from after a cleaning at the dentist's office, even though it has been months since my last cleaning.

I can also feel my muscles a little more, like the neural signals are getting through better, and I've had a slight increase in strength without doing any more exercise than normal.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on June 30, 2013, 11:33:30 am
P5P, you think?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 30, 2013, 07:12:06 pm
Yes, I think so. We shall see if this increases further.

The brand of the P5P I use is the VitaminShoppe brand. I doubt that it's better than other brands. I've read that it can take 3 weeks for major benefits to occur from P5P. I noticed improvements in about 24 hours, though I took very big daily doses (3 to 6 of them per day, recently with one or two ordinary B6 tablets added).

---

Dr. Terry Wahls uses B6 in treating her MS and that of her patients.

"According to the graph shown during Dr. [Terry] Wahls speech, less than half of all Americans get enough vitamin B6 and magnesium in their diet. More than 70 percent do not get sufficient amounts of iodine, and a whopping 80 percent do not get enough omega-3 fat from their diet. This, by the way, is why animal-based omega-3 is one of the few supplements I recommend to virtually everyone." - Dr. Mercola, Doctor Reverses MS in 9 Months by Eating These Foods, December 23, 2011,
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/12/23/overcoming-multiple-sclerosis-through-diet.aspx (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/12/23/overcoming-multiple-sclerosis-through-diet.aspx)

People with pyroluria reportedly are deficient in B6 and often also magnesium, which fits well with the stressing of the importance of these nutrients by Drs. Mercola and Wahls. However, people with pyroluria reportedly often also retain omega 3 fatty acids very well and so tend to have too much omega 3 and not enough omega 6 (though I haven't seen any studies confirming this tendency). If Dr. Larson's numbers below are anywhere near accurate, then Dr. Mercola's advice on omega 3 may not really be true for "virtually everyone."

Quote
Pyroluria, An Inborn Mistake

This disorder is connected to an abnormal production of a group of body chemicals called pyrroles. Pyrroles are a worthless byproduct of hemoglobin synthesis. Most people have very little if any of these pyrroles circulating in their bodies. We know that through measuring levels of pyrroles excreted via the urine. Some of us, however, are not so fortunate. Pyrroles are abnormally high in about:

•   30% of schizophrenics
•   40% of persons with psychiatric problems
•   11% of normals
•   25% of disturbed children
•   40% of alcoholics

- Joan Mathews Larson, Ph.D, http://www.joanmathewslarson.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/D_Hide_In_Closet.htm (http://www.joanmathewslarson.com/HRC_2006/Depression_06/D_Hide_In_Closet.htm)

Dr. Wahls talks about the importance of raw meat:
Quote
17:51  "[W]e need DHA, which is an omega 3 fat, that docosahexaenoic acid, so [we] can have a big brain. It's also very important in the midface development, so you have a nice, broad dental arch, straight teeth. You get this in wild fish, wild shellfish, and to a lesser degree in grassfed meat; raw, when you cook it, you do lose it. So grassfed meat does of course have more omega 3 fatty acids, but you want to have it raw. The more you cook it, the more you lose."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?

Terry Wahls, MD — Minding My Mitochondria
v=wg216KCuXSM)

34:19 "[T]he advantage to having your meat raw, you're going to have more of the vitamins, the minerals intact, and the meat will begin to autodigest in your stomach. You'll need fewer enzymes from your pancreas to digest that food. The hazard of eating your meat raw is the public health hazard of parasites and bacterial infections. Because of our conventional farming, that now becomes a much higher risk proposition. If you can buy your meat from farmers that you know and you know the health of the animal, you're decreasing the risk somewhat. If you have the meat in a deep freeze for at least 14 days, you're going to decrease the risk of parasites, but there are certainly public health concerns. Eating enzymes with your food is another way of dealing with those issues. I buy my meat directly from the farmer. I would be nervous about getting meat commercially and eating it raw."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM)

A comment on Dr. Wahl's video on Youtube reveals that raw meat is important in part because of B6:
Quote
TheCalmCanary 1 month ago
For B6, eat raw animal foods - raw milk, raw oysters, sashimi or ceviche, raw meat (esp. organ meats), raw pasture-raised egg yolks, etc. For more info watch "Cure Tooth Decy" with Nagel, Fallon
No B6, no dreams. No dreams, no tingling. No tingling, no nirvana.
(I was told by my neurology [sic])

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM)
Many of the disorders that Dr. Wahls mentioned in her talk are reportedly benefited by vitamin B6 and often pyroluria therapy.

The raw meat - B6 connection is another place where a piece of the puzzle seems to be fitting for me, given my experiencing raw animal foods to be quite beneficial.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: jessica on July 01, 2013, 10:38:59 am
PaleoPhil thanks for keeping up your journal. 

Pyroluria was one of the first things I asked to be tested for 6 or so years ago before I ever even started illuminating foods(although Ive always had a better than SAD diet) and my doctor is a total pill pusher, ordered wrong test and interpreted it incorrectly.  I was so frustrated I gave up at that point and went to a raw vegan retreat/farm, uuugh!  I only wish at that time I had better guidance and all of this information readily available. 

Even if "Pyroluria" is just a bunching of symptoms due to various vitamin and mineral deficiencies, knowing what to focus on supplementing nutritionally and what to eliminate environmentally and dietarily to get the body and mind  functioning and HEALING would have been optimal at that point.  Live and learn for sure. 

I am focusing on lots of zinc, chromium, b's, selenium, mag, vit c and iodine.  I feel benefits each day and notice my recovery from stress is really coming along, I have no doubt, that with moderation and persistence, eating lots of raw animal foods with the added benefit of nutritional balancing will bring me to steady and true health.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on July 01, 2013, 04:17:13 pm
From what I've read, the theory for the dreams effect is that p5p combines with tryptophan to produce extra serotonin in the brain and elsewhere. This is especially popular with those interested to experience vivid/lucid dreams, and is supposed to work best when you take larger amount before sleep and combine with some protein rich in tryptophan (like cheese).
I tried p5p inspired by your posts, and the next day I had such a strongly vivid dream, then searched around a bit and discovered the above theory. That was the only effect I've noticed. Btw, you don't want to take above 200mg from what I read, otherwise you get numbing/tingling at the extremities, and is potentially dangerous for the brain.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 01, 2013, 06:56:22 pm
Thanks, I haven't gotten any numbness, tingling or vivid dreams yet, despite taking as much as 250 mg P5P plus 100 mg B6. This suggests a rather strong deficiency.

Regarding those side effects, could you have been reading about the pyrodixine HCL form of B6 instead of P5P? Those side effects are much more linked to pyrodixine HCL than P5P (see Pyridoxine & Pyridoxal 5'Phosphate, Thorne Research, http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/6/1/87.pdf (http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/6/1/87.pdf)). I have seen no reported clinical or study cases at all of serious harm to the brain from P5P. The P5P form was actually called "nontoxic" in one research paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4094726 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4094726)) and even a detoxifying antidote for multiple poisons in another (Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate as an antidote for cyanide, spermine, gentamicin, and dopamine, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3576625 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3576625)).

This "Dr. JM" claims to have not seen any side effects from P5P in any of her patients: http://www.remedyspot.com/showthread.php/3465259-How-high-can-you-go-with-P5P-Have-I-gone-too-high-Dr-JM-please-advise (http://www.remedyspot.com/showthread.php/3465259-How-high-can-you-go-with-P5P-Have-I-gone-too-high-Dr-JM-please-advise)!
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on July 02, 2013, 10:40:13 am
Wow.  This is really interesting. I love reading about other people's experiments.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 02, 2013, 11:57:38 am
Thanks Cherimoya.

I had a good dental cleaning visit today. The hygienist's poker didn't stick in the cavity like in the past and she didn't even mention it, whereas in the past she was concerned that it might need filling. When I asked about it, she indicated that she doesn't even consider it a cavity anymore, just a dip (I can't remember the exact word she used) in the tooth enamel.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: LePatron7 on July 02, 2013, 08:10:11 pm
Thanks Cherimoya.

I had a good dental cleaning visit today. The hygienist's poker didn't stick in the cavity like in the past and she didn't even mention it, whereas in the past she was concerned that it might need filling. When I asked about it, she indicated that she doesn't even consider it a cavity anymore, just a dip (I can't remember the exact word she used) in the tooth enamel.

What's your magnesium, calcium and vitamin k consumption like? What are some things you're doing for dental health? Brushing? Flossing, etc.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 02, 2013, 08:29:13 pm
Yes, I've tried all those things and more and B6 has so far helped much more than all those and everything else, and it did so dramatically within a week or so. It's looking like B6 is especially important in my case. This would explain why all those things that help many other folks quite a bit didn't do a lot for me (some, but not a lot). For example, a number of people reported that taking K2 supplements or butter oil resulted in a quick and dramatic reduction in their dental plaque and I was puzzled why I wasn't getting that sort of result, but continued to take it (and Ca/Mg bone minerals, Mg supplements, bone broths, animal fat, etc.) anyway, figuring it was helping a little, and I did gradually improve if I also kept my carb intake down. Then I took B6 (P5P form) and got the sort of result those folks reported from K2. The amazing thing about the P5P is I can even eat some carbs and my teeth still feel polished! That's the first time that has happened in as long as I can remember (decades).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 06, 2013, 06:28:44 am
Greetings to the Sunka Wakan Oyate and all real peoples,

I have more good news to report on the health front today. I'm not sure when this happened, but I first noticed it today--my eyes are much less bloodshot than in the past. I noticed when I looked in the mirror that the whites looked much whiter than usual. I looked closer and saw that some red spots of dense veins that I had had for decades were now greatly receded. Hoozah!

I Googled this and found that B6 deficiency has been connected to bloodshot eyes:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070717185214AAywMTK (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070717185214AAywMTK)

http://www.menshealth.co.uk/style/skin-care/q-how-can-i-get-rid-of-bloodshot-eyes-286915 (http://www.menshealth.co.uk/style/skin-care/q-how-can-i-get-rid-of-bloodshot-eyes-286915)

http://homeremediesandtreatments.com/bloodshot-eyes--which (http://homeremediesandtreatments.com/bloodshot-eyes--which) fits with my recent B6 supplementation.

I also found that some anti-redness eye drops contain boric acid (Bausch and Lomb Collyrium For Fresh Eyes Eye Washhttp://www.soap.com/p/bausch-and-lomb-collyrium-for-fresh-eyes-eye-wash-31891?site=CA&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc_S&utm_term=ABL-025&utm_campaign=GoogleAW&CAWELAID=1323253641&utm_content=pla&adtype=pla&cagpspn=pla (http://www.soap.com/p/bausch-and-lomb-collyrium-for-fresh-eyes-eye-wash-31891?site=CA&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc_S&utm_term=ABL-025&utm_campaign=GoogleAW&CAWELAID=1323253641&utm_content=pla&adtype=pla&cagpspn=pla)) and that boric acid deficiency can contribute to bloodshot eyes. Some foods that I eat, such as eggs and dates, reportedly contain boric acid (https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/1927/V17N02_066.pdf?sequence=1 (https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/1927/V17N02_066.pdf?sequence=1)).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on July 06, 2013, 08:07:38 am
All links resolve with 404 error.
Anyway, great to hear it's going so good.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 06, 2013, 09:05:13 am
Thanks a million! I think I fixed the links. Please let me know if any are still broken.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 06, 2013, 08:02:36 pm
I had the first recall of vivid color in a dream this morning. It was a beautiful tall stalk of deep purple flowers. A pleasant and slightly feminine voice from above said "foxglove," as though it were gently explaining to me what the flower is called, the way a parent teaches a child what things are named. The name of the flower sounded a bit familiar, though I didn't recall what it is. I had the sense that it was significant in some way. Then I awoke.

I Googled foxglove. It is a purple flower, though the flower in my dream was a darker purple, more like the dark spots in this floxglove image:
(http://images.meredith.com/bhg/images/plant/p_BHG189484.jpg)
It is used to treat some forms of heart disease, such as atrial fibrillation. Coincidentally, I recently learned that my brother had a-fib, though my understanding is that it went away.

That's the first time I recall having a dream like that. Is this how other people's dreams are? The only dreams I recalled in recent years were chaotic, disjointed and made no sense. My father said that the only dreams he recalls are this way too. I can't even remember the last time I recalled a dream before these most recent ones that are increasingly pleasant and now colorful. I had been grateful that I was no longer recalling the dreams of the past years, given their unpleasantness. I welcome this new, more pleasant sort of dream. I feel like a child that has seen its first flower. I enjoyed this new experience.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dr. D on July 06, 2013, 08:42:02 pm
I just stumbled upon this flower a few weeks ago for the first time in my life. I thought it sad beautiful and the were so many blooms!

Are your dreams better from P5P also? I know mine are usually gray. I've been really debating and considering pyroluria for myself and can't come to a conclusion. I'm wondering if I'm deficient in either zinc or b6, not both. Maybe I should get P5P and just see if it helps?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 06, 2013, 08:47:56 pm
This is my first recall of a pleasant and colorful dream, though maybe there were some in my childhood that I don't remember. I only remember unpleasant or neutral dreams in the past, and they were few and far between, except for during periods of illness in which there was more frequent recall and they were more unpleasant.

Nora Gedgaudas has a sample list of pyroluria symptoms that clued me in to possibly having it: http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398 (http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398) There are many more symptoms reported elsewhere. I had seen Chris Kresser list some, but it was Nora's longer list that really drove home the point for me. I think I had seen a similar list years ago, but I vaguely recall that I found most sources saying it was quackery. I think I even tried B6 before, due to some symptom connections, but not the P5P form and in a too-low dose (the recommended dose on the bottle) for it to do anything even if it had been the P5P form.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 06, 2013, 09:08:18 pm
Oddly enough, I feel like I'm standing a bit straighter since taking P5P. I searched my PC files and found this that I had saved years ago:

"Spinal Curvature and Nutrition

Scoliosis has been induced in a variety of animals through the creation of nutritional deficits and imbalances.  Not surprisingly, many of the nutritional imbalances linked to scoliosis in animals such as deficits of manganese, vitamin B6, and copper have all also been implicated as factors in osteoporosis in humans. " (Sandy Simmons, http://www.ctds.info/scoliosis.html#nutrition (http://www.ctds.info/scoliosis.html#nutrition))

Within weeks, P5P has become the single most beneficial health therapy I've ever tried, a bit more so even than raw Paleo (sorry folks).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 06, 2013, 09:44:18 pm
This lovely tune started playing in my head this morning:

One Rainy Wish
By Jimi Hendrix

Golden rose, the color of the dream I had
Not too long ago
Misty blue and lilac too
Never to grow old.

There you were under the tree of song
Sleeping so peacefully
In your hand a flower played
Waiting there for me.

I have never
Laid eyes on you
Not before this timeless day
But you woke and you
Smiled my name
And you stole
My heart away
Stole my heart away

Golden rose, the color of the dream I had
Not too long ago
Misty blue and lilac too
Never to grow old.

Golden rose, the color of the dream I had
Misty blue and lilac too
Golden rose, the color of the dream I had
Misty blue and lilac too
Golden rose, golden rose, golden rose.

It's only a dream
I'd love to tell somebody about this dream
The sky was filled with a thousand stars
While the sun kissed the mountains blue
And eleven moons played across the rainbows
Above me and you.
Golden rose the color of the velvet walls, surrounds us.

Jimi Hendrix Experience - One Rainy Wish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBxLf1COt2U#ws)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dr. D on July 06, 2013, 11:17:44 pm
According to that list I have 15 for sure, some very strong, about 3 additional that are split. I guess I better get tested.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: jessica on July 06, 2013, 11:31:59 pm
haha phil, I have been conjuring up all kinds of jimi Hendrix songs in the last months, just out of nowhere.  haven't listened to them in a good 20 years, back when I stole my sisters friends tapes, good stuff though.

I hope you start having some vivid amazing dreams.  mine came back last year after I stopped smoking weed, stoped taking 5htp and started to really allow myself to sleep and make it a healing time.  now I know I have 2 sets of dreams a night, recall on most nights.  its a great place to be, in dreams, and I can feel a lot of physical and mental healing coming through during sleep.  before I think my body was just processing all the poison I was feeding it, now I feel its actually taking the time to rebuild and reconnect.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 07, 2013, 03:58:46 am
Thanks for sharing your experience and good wishes, Jessica--and I wish you well also. In my case, I don't smoke ganja or currently take 5htp and before trying P5P I did employ the standard advice about allowing plenty of time to sleep and make it a healing, relaxing time, sleep in as much darkness as possible, and so forth.

I did try one tablet of 5htp on two occasions and had bad experiences. I took 1 50 mg tablet with a meal (supper), per the instructions. I passed out asleep within a half hour of taking them (before I intended to) and slept for much longer than usual and still felt groggy and dizzy the next morning and my legs felt they had some sleep paralysis in them, making it difficult to walk to work, whereas after P5P I need less sleep, feel much better rested and energetic, have a spring in my step and am clearer-headed). Somewhere I read that some folks with pyroluria may have difficulty metabolizing the 5htp, whereas others benefit from it, though I forget where I saw that.

One of the things that helped convince me to try B6 (in the P5P form) was that after reading about the no-dreaming indicator, I made a focused effort to try to have dreams and recall them. I got plenty of sleep, slept in, woke without an alarm, and even stayed in bed after waking, in case I might dose off again and have a dream. I also kept pad and paper available to record dreams. On a couple occasions it seemed I had dreamed, but before I could even grab the pen I instantly forgot whatever the dream was and I couldn't even remember if had actually dreamed.

I hadn't changed my sleep habits when I started recalling dreams and I was actually getting less sleep than before and the only major change I made was in supplements, particularly P5P. My guess is that this will be difficult for some folks to believe without experiencing it themselves, as conventional medicine unfortunately appears to dismiss it all as quackery.

I felt very warm and good after eating some bone broth this morning. I checked my oral temp afterwards, allowing some time for the mouth to cool down to avoid throwing off the reading. At 9:30 AM my oral temp was 99.2 F.

---

Unrelated clarifying footnote to my dream post: I'm not theistic and am not reading any supernatural or other message into my foxglove dream. For now I'm not even going to try to give my dreams a secular interpretation--like my subconscious puzzling things out while I sleep--I'm just reporting notable things and, as always, keeping an open mind. I'm also interested in other folks' dream experiences.

---

I found some ripe wild black raspberries today. There are more of them than I've seen the past several years and they were juicier and tastier than usual, perhaps due to the plentiful rain we've had.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 07, 2013, 04:46:30 am
Pyrole (pyrrole/kryptopyrrole) urine testing:

I'm no expert on this, but I've learned that pyroles are highest in the urine in the morning and one apparently should eat foods containing carbs or alcohol and avoid B6/P5P supplements for 5-7 days beforehand to increase the chances of sampling when there are substantial pyroles in the urine (which would likely result in me feeling miserable, so I doubt I'll do that, but maybe I'll do the test some day anyway to make sure that I don't have elevated pyroles even with nutritional therapy).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 15, 2013, 05:20:12 am
Muhammad Sunshine's thread here - http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649) - encouraged me to question the dismissals by LC advocates like Dr. Eades of reported benefits from resistant starch.

One interesting article I came across in searching the topic was this one from Prof. Stephan Guyenet - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html) - which contains an explanation for why certain plant foods might be superior to butter as sources of buytrate (via inulin, resistant starch, etc.) .

Recent posts on resistant starch at the Free the Animal blog (warning: explicit language and flame wars, though the resistant starch posts and comments thankfully are relatively free of that, IIRC) and Mark's Daily Apple forum have further encouraged my experimentation.

I've tried various sources of inulin and resistant starch over the years. Here's a brief summary of results up to now:
> inulin-rich foods (garlic, shallots, turnips, leeks, onions, jicama, asparagus, dandelion root, burdock root, artichokes, ...): no noticeable benefits; some difficult to digest; garlic, shallots, leeks and turnips were the best I tried for both digestion and flavor and I still consume some
> chewable inulin tablets like Fiberchoice (I think the Fiberchoice tablets were the standard original version--whatever seemed least adulterated--though it's been years since I used it): there seemed to be some improvement of constipation for 2 or 3 weeks, then little or no benefit; palatable taste
> fermented blenderized raw potatoes with yogurt and salt--the results tasted awful (it went into the trash)
> cooked potatoes (including cold mashed potatoes mixed with sheep's yogurt and allowed to supposedly ferment in the fridge and unmodified starch added to cold mashed potatoes with butter): give me the usual pyroluria-type symptoms I get from the other carb sources that I don't tolerate well, such as muscle tension, lower extremity edema and pain and flank and bladder pain in the morning
> bananas - ripe ones don't contain a lot of resistant starch; haven't experimented with dried or cooked green bananas (other than plantains, which are a type of banana); mild pyroluria-type symptoms, especially if not super-ripe
> Super-ripe (black) raw plantains: taste good and seem tolerable to my system, but I don't as yet notice any benefit from them (though my intakes have been small and intermittent, in part because they take weeks to blacken
> dried green plantains - my first batch is drying in the fridge
> unmodified potato starch (Bob's Red Mill; supposedly not high-heated): I've had a couple of intriguing drops of blood glucose to 79 mg/dl after consuming a tbsp or two, which is a rather low reading for me since I started eating LC; I also so far don't notice the negative symptoms that cooked potatoes give me
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on July 20, 2013, 06:50:15 am
You inspired me to start taking P5P which I have been now for the past week.

I feel like I have had more energy and more restful sleep although I do not recall my dreams an easier.

I also notice the pain in my wrist has decreased.

How much have you been taking? and how long now?

I just take one pill with a non animal based meal.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 20, 2013, 06:59:04 am
Glad to hear that it's helping you. I take such a huge dose that I'm reticent to share it for fear that someone might jump right to it. Instead I recommend finding the dose that works best for you. The general recommendation is to keep increasing the dose, spread throughout the day (though I try to avoid taking it after supper, as I find it can keep me awake at night; so I take some with breakfast, or upon first rising if I'm experiencing pyroluria-type symptoms, lunch and supper), until one has regular recall of pleasant dreams.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 01, 2013, 03:12:36 am
Despite paper_clips43's good experience, I should re-emphasize what I've said in the past, that I don't want anyone doing anything I do just because I've had success with it. One person has reported negative results from P5P at http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/pyroluria/msg113912/#msg113912 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/pyroluria/msg113912/#msg113912) and it sounds like he wasn't taking certain recommended precautions with it, such as what Paul Jaminet recommended here:

B6 supplementation "should be balanced by vitamin B12 and biotin" http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/supplements, (http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/supplements,) which are often included in B complex supplements (though I've read that one should look for ones that contain folate instead of folic acid and Dr. Ron recently changed his Doc's Best multi-vit/mineral to include folate instead of folic acid).

My current regimen includes the following supplements, though some days I only take the P5P, and sometimes lower doses, either because I'm too busy or to try to avoid my body becoming dependent on supplements:

GLA from evening primrose oil (just re-started this today after not taking it for a while--GLA is recommended for pyroluria and I had some good exercise performance while I was taking Nordic borage seed oil as the GLA source, but I read that EPO is a better source)
P5P
Zinc (I'm trying a liquid ionic form, which Nora Gedgaudas recommended that people with pyroluria take, as they tend not to absorb nutrients well, which is another match with my experience, and I also don't seem to absorb tablets or even capsules as well as liquids)
Potassium
Magnesium (and epsom salt baths on occasion)
Doc's Best multi vitamin/mineral or B complex
Biotin and manganese (haven't been good about taking these)

On days where I don't eat much raw plantain, I also add some Bob's Red Mill potato starch to water or sheep yogurt or another food.

Last weekend I ate some big meals of my mother's cooked food and had some negative symptoms afterwards, starting with throat mucus and reflux that seemed to be triggered by the loads of her tomato-based barbecue sauce that was put on grilled chicken. The reflux, choaking and coughing irritated my throat and for several days my body produced throat and nasal mucus. I also developed worsened constipation (perhaps from the cooked meat protein, which does seem to be constipating for me) and then I got some urinary-tract-infection-type symptoms and even the first inguinal hernia bulging I've had in a long time that luckily improved relatively quickly. I normally would limit my intake of tomato-based sauce due to past bad experience with it and go somewhat easy on thoroughly-cooked lean meat, but I was feeling good and mistakenly thought my tolerance level had improved enough to handle it. I also wasn't taking as much supplements as I do at home, including no magnesium. Lesson learned.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on September 14, 2013, 07:49:22 am
I saw Belgian endive in the supermarket. It looked yummy and nutritious (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2006-12-27/news/0612250030_1_bitter-greens-turnip-greens-dandelion-greens (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2006-12-27/news/0612250030_1_bitter-greens-turnip-greens-dandelion-greens)) to me. I do find it tasty (most SAD-fecked Americans probably won't like the bitterness, but I increasingly adore bitterness after being on a mostly-raw Paleo diet for some time and challenging my taste buds with bitter foods).
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on September 15, 2013, 10:34:35 am
I enjoy bitter greens too.  I have noticed, though, that even the bitter greens have a sweeter quality when they are high-Brix...which makes sense, since a good deal of the dissolved solids that Brix meters measure are sugars.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: jessica on September 15, 2013, 12:24:11 pm
Bitter greens are my absolute favorite, endive, radicchio, dandelion, chicory, wild lettuce, any kind of lettuce really, lettuce stems especially.  But I will admit I am also partial to them because some, especially the wild lettuce, are high in opiates :)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 09, 2013, 01:37:19 am
At what stage of ripeness do you eat your plantains?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 09, 2013, 01:50:19 am
At what stage of ripeness do you eat your plantains?

I wait until they are mushy and black all over.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 09, 2013, 04:01:47 am
ok good. I have one at that stage.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on October 09, 2013, 06:28:15 am
I wait until they are mushy and black all over.

Sometimes I do, but I also like them before that stage.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 09, 2013, 06:54:39 am
At what stage of ripeness do you eat your plantains?
When I first tried raw plantains I followed the advice or raw vegans who eat them by letting them ripen to the extent that Cherimoya does (to the point that the whole skin is black and the flesh mushy). Unfortunately, I found that the more I ripened them, the more negative effects I get. Then I learned about resistant starch (if interested, please see the thorough blog series on it at http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch/page/4 (http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch/page/4) that Richard Nikoley and "Tatertot" Tim collaborated on--please no questions unless you've first read that entire series, as they answer most potential questions in it), found that I benefit from RS (such as improved fasting, post-prandial and random blood glucose and some further small improvement in my sleep quality and ability to fall asleep quickly, which already seemed pretty good), and now I eat plantains as green as possible and avoid negative symptoms (many of the same negative symptoms I've reported in the past in my journal). It was rather surprising to me, because it goes against what people had recommended and I thought there would be more problems when they're highest in starch, rather than glucose (ripening converts the starch into glucose). To get rid of the astringency I dry them first.

My experience with plantains made me curious about glucose. I tested a near-pure glucose source (brown rice syrup) and found it to have very negative symptoms for me at even low intakes. So it's looking like glucose may be more of a problem for me than starch, fructose or sucrose.

I do it for the health benefits, rather than for taste. When not ripened at all and dried, they taste bland, sort of like crackers. Not bad, but not that good either.

I'll pre-emptively request that there please be no debates on any of this in my journal. I've seen too many flame posts on RS and other matters at other blogs and forums already. I've had more than my fill of them trying to find info in between the flame attacks. Insults and negative attacking posts don't bother me (though I would of course prefer not to get them), but they tend to be absent of any substance and a complete waste of time to have to sift through them to find the real information.

I know that there are controversial topics here, but like Lex, I want my journal thread to stay focused on my journal. If you want to debate you can start your own thread or look for an existing thread on the topic (I recall at least one past thread on resistant starch--and I was a skeptic at first). I hope people will respect this request.

As always, YMMV.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 09, 2013, 10:35:56 am
I personally have no problem with people eating plantains before they are mushy, but I get terrible burping and stomach pains if I do.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 09, 2013, 11:19:50 am
Sorry to hear that. I'm surprised how well I seem to handle unripe plantains and potato starch, given my own decades long history of problems in my entire GI system.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 09, 2013, 11:24:23 am
Sorry to hear that. I'm surprised how well I seem to handle unripe plantains and potato starch, given my own decades long history of problems in my entire GI system.

Well, it sounds like you probably need them to be unripe.  How is the P5P going?  Are you part of any online forums for people on P5P? I'm curious to see what other supplements they find helpful.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Iguana on October 09, 2013, 12:00:58 pm
PSP ? A Google search tells me :
- Polícia de Segurança Pública
- PlayStation Portable
- Professional Paintball League
- Progressive Supranuclear Palsy

 ???
Back to plantains, I used to like them black-overripe but now I like them best when yellow-ripe with a few black spots. I can’t eat them green-unripe.

Should we split this discussion about plantains from your journal ?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 09, 2013, 07:56:14 pm
Well, it sounds like you probably need them to be unripe.  How is the P5P going?  Are you part of any online forums for people on P5P? I'm curious to see what other supplements they find helpful.

PSP ? A Google search tells me :
- Polícia de Segurança Pública
- PlayStation Portable
- Professional Paintball League
- Progressive Supranuclear Palsy

 ???
Huh? That's not what comes up with my google search:

https://www.google.com/#q=p5p (https://www.google.com/#q=p5p)

All the top hits show what it is - a vitamin.

Quote
Back to plantains, I used to like them black-overripe but now I like them best when yellow-ripe with a few black spots. I can’t eat them green-unripe.
I've tried them at various ripeness and I find I prefer them just a little ripe, mostly green, and dried for more than a day or two. That way they have a mild sweetness that I find I like. I was surprised because I had read in the past that they aren't edible unless cooked, then I read that they are only edible raw if super-ripe.

Like I said, drying them (I put them on a drying rack in the fridge) gets rid of the nasty astringency. I'll bet you would find them at least not as bad when dried a bit or more, and thin-sliced.

Quote
Should we split this discussion about plantains from your journal ?
Questions on them are OK. If it turns into a debate, there is a plantains opinions thread at http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/plantains-vs-bananas/msg61880/#msg61880. (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/plantains-vs-bananas/msg61880/#msg61880.)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 09, 2013, 08:30:05 pm
I believe Iguana googled the letter S, instead of the number 5. ;)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 10, 2013, 05:15:37 am
LOL  Good thing he didn't google it with the letter C.  ;D
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 10, 2013, 06:00:25 am
indeed.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 10, 2013, 07:09:53 am
How is the P5P going?
Good, though because the body excretes what it doesn't need and doesn't store it, I need to take it any day that I want to benefit from it.

Quote
Are you part of any online forums for people on P5P? I'm curious to see what other supplements they find helpful.
No. Nora Gedgaudas page on pyroluria is a good starting point: http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398 (http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/?p=398)
It has an annoying large ad that wasn't there before. The info is below it. Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser also have some helpful info.

Manganese, Magnesium and biotin are some nutrients that can be depleted by taking a lot of the main pyroluria supplements (zinc and the P5P form of B6):

Supplement / what depletes it / source
Manganese / Zinc / a commenter
Magnesium / B6 / a commenter
Biotin / B6 / Paul Jaminet
B12 / B6 / Paul Jaminet
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 10, 2013, 10:30:36 am
Have you thought about starting such a forum?  There may be common co-deficiencies that go along with B-6 deficiencies that you're not aware of yet.  That might be a useful way for many people to share their experiences with specific supplements, foods, or herbs.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 19, 2013, 08:37:58 pm
Thanks for the suggestion, Cheri. A number of people have tried to start blogs and such about pyroluria, but not much came out of them, as the popularity has been minimal and they typically don't last long, since most people don't know they have it and have never heard of it and those who have tend to have only heard the critics and dismiss and ridicule it (for example, devotees of Danny Roddy ridiculed Chris Kresser for taking it seriously and Kurt Harris for taking Chris Kresser seriously--so the taint is so strong on pyroluria that it even extends to guilt-by-association).

Raw green coffee is so far proving to be superior to roasted coffee for me. I get a mild euphoria and mild, clear alertness with no noticeable significant negative side effects from raw green coffee, whereas I get a strong energy boost and euphoria from roasted coffee, but it's followed by jitteriness, muscle tightness and generally feeling not quite as good, and the more I drank roasted coffee, the less I got the benefits and the more I got just the negatives. Presumably, raw coffee is much lower in AGEs than roasted (I recall seeing roasted coffee listed as one of the foods highest in AGEs).

Bringing raw green coffee to work helps me avoid the temptation of the roasted coffee available all day in the cafeteria and at some meetings. To make matters worse, because it's available all day and is kept heated at very high temps, the coffee had probably sometimes been "cooked" for hours by the time I got to it.

When I get it right, I find raw coffee to taste like mildly flavored cocoa, even slightly sweet. Quite a contrast to the burnt flavor of dark roasted coffee (*see below for why I briefly tried a dark roast). I have to get the timing right for the raw coffee to taste good. I put a couple handfuls of green coffee beans in a mason jar and fill it with water and refrigerate for about 3 days. Sometimes I add a small number of roasted beans to add additional flavor, and also to use up my remaining roasted beans (before thinking of trying fully raw coffee, I first tried lightly roasted beans, which still had some negative effects and not as much of the sustained good feeling of the raw coffee).

The beans stick to the bottom of the jars, so I may try to come up with a way to keep them elevated above it on something that is easily removed and cleaned.

Loren Cordain made this raw-meat friendly statement in one of his books:

"if you can find sources of untainted meats and seafood, eating these foods raw may represent a healthy alternative when it comes to AGEs. Sushi bars (raw fish and seafood) and restaurants serving steak tartare (raw beef) have been popular for decades." (The Paleo Answer: 7 Days to Lose Weight, Feel Great, Stay Young, p. 40)

*I tried Starbucks dark roast coffee when I was first experimenting with making my own coffee and trying different beans and roasts, to see which had the worst/best health effects, energy/brain boost, etc. and which tasted the best. I did start with a bit of a bias that less-roasted beans would prove superior, but I tried to keep an open mind and palate.

Plus, the thing that gave me the idea to try the Starbucks brand in particular was that Dave Asprey created an experiment where you could test your brain function after consuming his "Bulletproof" coffee vs. Starbucks coffee. Dave attributed his coffee's superior results to lower mycotoxin content, but neglected to mention that his coffee beans are also some of the lightest (least roasted) on the market. I suspect that the latter is more of a factor. I didn't notice a big difference in mental function between the two myself, and the brain tests were so boring, time consuming and required to be done at such inconvenient times that I quit the experiment before I finished, even though there was a potential reward if I had. Overall, I wasn't impressed with Bulletproof coffee, but it was far superior to the Starbucks dark roast, which was like drinking charcoal water. It's not saying much for a coffee to best "charbucks."
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 19, 2013, 10:35:56 pm
I too have experimented with different types of coffee. I have not had it for several weeks now and hoping to go longer though. When I do partake I use a cold brew machine. Are you familiar with these? Also have you heard of this coffee company Rich Rewards? Supposedly they soak the Raw beans in a brine and then lightly roast them and then re soak them in the brine to absorb the Raw nutrients. Here is a link.

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item01609/Rich-Rewards-Breakfast-Blend.html (http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item01609/Rich-Rewards-Breakfast-Blend.html)

I found less negative symptoms with this coffee and I got high energy levels. So much so that I only consume half the recommended dose when brewing. I suspect the caffeine levels are higher.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 19, 2013, 10:40:23 pm
Heres a pic of my cold brew machine. BTW where do you get your raw beans?

http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t622/paper_clips43/IMG_0734_zpsd95affbd.jpg (http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t622/paper_clips43/IMG_0734_zpsd95affbd.jpg)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: jessica on October 19, 2013, 11:01:22 pm
Super interesting that you guys bring this up as I have a source for raw coffee beans at the moment.  I roast beans for an injured friend and could easily try an experiment.  Roasted coffee has been horrible for me in the past, but if I get my hands on some beans I'd be willing to do an experiment. 
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 20, 2013, 02:57:35 am
Hi paper clips, I hadn't heard of the Rich Rewards beans, but that gives me an idea to try brining my own, thanks! Do you know how they do the brining part of the process (not the roasting)?

Yes, I have a special cold-brew machine called a French Press. I don't bother with it anymore, as it's unnecessary when using whole green coffee beans. I tried grinding them, but it made a racket and is probably hard on the coffee grinder. It's also a lot simpler and quicker to just use the whole beans and I'm a simple, lazy man.  :P I strain out the beans from the coffee with an ordinary strainer.

Wow! That's a fancy and huge brewer you're using. Here's an image of my current cold brew machine:
(http://ian.umces.edu/imagelibrary/albums/userpics/12789/normal_ian-symbol-mason-jar.png)

:P

I get my raw beans via Amazon. I tried one pound first, to see if I like them, then 5 pounds once I determined that I do.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 20, 2013, 04:47:44 am
I wonder how much caffeine your getting with your method. Ive searched and searched for a caffeine tester although have yet to find one. I actually own a cold brew coffee company that delivers cold brew locally. We get our beans from Guatemala and they are organic. Thats why we use a big one.
Do you heat up the water after you have been soaking them? Also do you use the ordinary amount of two tablespoons per 8 oz cup?
I have always craved coffee as long as I can remember although for the most part go without. I never was sure why exactly. Maybe its the culture around it.
Anyway I unfortunately am not aware of the complete process for soaking the beans in a brine. I couldn't find anything on their website with actual details. I imagine it is some patented process though. I have considered calling Life Extension and asking.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 20, 2013, 07:45:15 pm
I wonder how much caffeine your getting with your method. Ive searched and searched for a caffeine tester although have yet to find one.
I don't know. Why do you want to know what the caffeine content is?

Quote
I actually own a cold brew coffee company that delivers cold brew locally. We get our beans from Guatemala and they are organic. Thats why we use a big one.
Interesting. What is the cold brew process you use?

Quote
Do you heat up the water after you have been soaking them?
Not unless I want to melt some butter into it to make butter coffee. It's not RPD-approved, of course.

Quote
Also do you use the ordinary amount of two tablespoons per 8 oz cup?
I use whole green coffee beans. About a couple handfuls.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 21, 2013, 01:55:54 am
This is the most active pyroluria forum I've seen. Not much activity and not much on it of interest, unfortunately.

Pyroluria Cure / Malvaria Cure Support Forum
http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=940 (http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=940)

This one has even less activity:

http://pyroluriasupport.com/forum/ (http://pyroluriasupport.com/forum/)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 21, 2013, 04:25:18 am
I just want to know the caffeine content because I feel like its not the caffeine that I crave in coffee as Decaf always fulfills my craving. I feel like the caffeine is the negative part of coffee and would rather go with out it as much as possible.

I use the cold brew machine that I posted a picture of for my company. We just fill the top part with ice water, from the local sedona spring, and 8 hours later we have a quart and a half of cold brewed coffee. Which, if you've ever had it, is much more concentrated than normal coffee.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 21, 2013, 05:08:11 am
So cold brewed just means soaked in cold water? I used to make it with a French press.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 24, 2013, 07:28:44 am
Yah essentially that is what it means.

How are you doing with your resistant starch experiments? Still consume it daily?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 24, 2013, 07:48:15 am
Nearly so, mainly with potato starch and dried very-green plantain slices. I think it makes sense to have some fractal variation.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 24, 2013, 10:14:29 am
I am starting to agree. I always thought my path to health was by giving up starch and grains. It seemed like such an easy fix. I think it might not be so easy though and I am again having to reconsider my diet.

Is the potato starch you use considered raw? Whats your opinion on juicing raw tubers?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 24, 2013, 10:35:33 am
Bob's Red Mill claims theirs is raw, though what they consider raw might not be what you consider raw. I only notice benefits from it and it's the only one available to me, so it's a moot question for me.

I haven't tried potato juice.

I'm suspecting that raw green coffee might still be too pro-inflammatory for me, presumably due to the fruit seed toxins. If so it will be unfortunate, because it does give me clear energy and alertness without jitteriness at the time of drinking it.

I'm starting to think that tapioca flour, another raw resistant starch source I use, is anti-inflammatory for me. Time will tell. It makes quite a mess, though. I wish it weren't ground quite so fine.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 24, 2013, 11:29:55 pm
Ya as much as I love coffee I have decided my life is bette with out...

What benefit are your trying to achieve from the coffee? Just increased energy? Or bowel movements?

What benefit do you believe you get from the RS?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Dr. D on October 25, 2013, 12:39:22 am
Ah Phil! I meant to get back to you earlier on this but I tried some jicama! I ate about half the root and even though I was/am zero-carb, I noticed no ill effects or decrease in ketosis. It had a light almost green bean flavor to it. Very fresh and enjoyable. It seemed to digest well even though it was the first starch I had eaten in months and I doubt there was any bacteria to help digest it. I may have to add some in over the winter as it seems "practical" that tubers would be a winter food.

I never did well with starches in the past, potatoes and plantains and bananas (yes the fake cultivated ones) didn't really ever digest well, giving me gas and tiredness. Maybe it was the small amount of jicama I had but it seemed okay. What sort of benefits have you noticed eating RS foods long term?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 25, 2013, 06:10:29 am
What benefit are your trying to achieve from the coffee? Just increased energy? Or bowel movements?
Both, and excellent mental clarity and focus.

Quote
What benefit do you believe you get from the RS?
My fasting and postprandial blood glucose measures have improved since taking it and I fall asleep a bit more easily (which generally wasn't a problem to begin with anyway). The tapioca flour and maybe the potato starch also seem to lessen muscle tension if it gets triggered by somewhat inflammatory foods like coffee. Iodine also seems to help with that. It seems like my dreams are a bit more pleasant when I consume RS, though it's difficult to tell because I also take P5P that helps with that. Lots of people report GI benefits from RS, so I am hoping that I'm getting some improvement in that as well. My bowels do seem improved a bit, though that's probably mostly or all due to taking Mg more often.

Ah Phil! I meant to get back to you earlier on this but I tried some jicama! I ate about half the root and even though I was/am zero-carb, I noticed no ill effects or decrease in ketosis. It had a light almost green bean flavor to it. Very fresh and enjoyable. It seemed to digest well even though it was the first starch I had eaten in months and I doubt there was any bacteria to help digest it. I may have to add some in over the winter as it seems "practical" that tubers would be a winter food.

I never did well with starches in the past, potatoes and plantains and bananas (yes the fake cultivated ones) didn't really ever digest well, giving me gas and tiredness. Maybe it was the small amount of jicama I had but it seemed okay. What sort of benefits have you noticed eating RS foods long term?
I think jicama contains mostly inulin fiber, rather than starch. Inulin, like RS, is supposed to be good for the large intestine. My diet includes both.

I envy your ability to digest jicama. I found that eating more than a tiny bit was somewhat hard on my stomach, whereas RS-rich foods don't seem to give me any problems in the stomach.

Jicama is interestingly similar to some wild African legume tubers that bush peoples eat.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 26, 2013, 10:48:28 am
What time of the day do you prefer to have your RS?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 26, 2013, 06:28:14 pm
I don't have any hard and fast rules, but presumably preferably not too late at night, as with all food. The Internet posts of Tatertot Tim aka Otzi are an excellent resource on all RS questions. He has already answered this and any other RS question you can think of.

Quote
RS dosing and timing:

tatertot // Oct 21, 2013 at 16:36 http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539784 (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539784)

I personally feel that if you are taking potato starch as a supplement, it may be best to take it all at once. RS gets fermented very fast once it hits the large intestine, so taking a small dose several times a day means it is all fermented in the first (proximal, ascending) part of the large intestine. Taking a bigger bolus dose of 20-40g (2-4TBS) all at once means it will overwhelm the proximal end and force fermentation in the transverse and descending parts (distal end) of the colon.

Also, there is a study link to jn.nutrition.org (rats anyway) that shows when taking an RS supplement alongside another fermenting fiber, psyllium in this case, it shifts the fermentation sites even further.

Taking small doses throughout the day probably isn’t a waste of time, but if you are looking for a reason to take it all at once, this is probably it. Studies show that almost no human can ferment over 50g at one time, but 10g is fermented very fast. So, somewhere between 20-40g is probably the right amount to take to flood your intestine with RS and make it do it’s job and get strong in return.

---

Q: Can any of you guys who’s been getting resistant starch for a long time say when they noticed a reduction in gas?

Tatertot Tim: I think for me it was about 3-4 weeks. I started out with 4TBS/day, I usually recommend people start out with 1TBS/day and up it after a week. The studies indicate it should take 3-4 weeks for all the major changes in gut microbe communities to happen. If you are missing key microbes, it may never happen. If you find discomfort at higher amounts, back off to 1TBS/day and take it with yogurt, kefir, or alongside sauerkraut or a probiotic supplement of some sort. http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539776 (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/10/resistant-ingestion-blunting.html#comment-539776)
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 28, 2013, 10:26:05 am
I was recently reminded that agave syrup tends to have a very high fructose/glucose ratio. Since I found that pure glucose (from brown rice syrup) gives me worse problems than RF honey, fruits or starchy foods, I suspected that fructose is less of a problem for me and realized that agave syrup is a way to test that (yes, I know it's not raw Paleo, I only used it for testing, not to make it part of my diet). Sure enough, I tried consuming the equivalent amount of carbs from agave syrup and didn't have any significant negative symptoms, unlike the rice syrup. Not surprisingly, my blood glucose didn't spike up with the agave syrup like it did with the rice syrup, which is a known difference.

My BG was actually down 10 mg/dl an hour after consuming the agave syrup. Oddly enough, I actually felt rather good and my appetite improved (which would be a problem for someone trying to lose weight, but a benefit for someone like me who would be happy with some increased appetite to bulk up a bit). Instead of my teeth getting scummy like they do after eating glucose, they actually felt a bit cleaner soon after eating the agave syrup. The good feeling and cleaner teeth were surprises for me, given all the demonization of fructose in the Paleosphere. Excess fructose tends to cause problems in the liver, so it may be that there were negative effects that I just can't see or feel.

So this seems to be the ranking of types of carbs for me, from best to worst:

- resistant starch (it's actually more like a fat than a carb, since gut bacteria convert it into SCFA's) -- produces mostly benefits; only problem is the minor nuisance of excess flatulence if I accidentally overdo it
- fructose -- no noticeable problems and possibly some mild benefits
- easily-digestible starch -- mild to moderate negative symptoms
- glucose -- moderate to severe negative symptoms, such as dramatic spikes in BG

This doesn't fit with popular assumptions in the Paleo sphere, which had me suspecting fructose more at first, until my personal testing showed otherwise. I suspect that "pyroluria" may have something to do with this. On the bright side, resistant starch seems to be reducing the severity of all the negative symptoms I get from glucose, not just improving my blood glucose readings. Time will tell.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: cherimoya_kid on October 28, 2013, 11:45:22 am
Interesting.

Is the P5P still working for you?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: paper_clips43 on October 28, 2013, 10:06:54 pm
Thank for the info PaleoPhil. Very very interesting and potentially groundbreaking stuff. I wonder if our appendix has anything to do with RS processing. Any info on this?
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 29, 2013, 09:07:55 am
Yes, P5P is still working. It's interesting having dream recall again after years of very little.

My understanding of the appendix is that it is a storehouse of backup bacteria in case the bacteria in the GI tract get wiped out.

Beneficial bacteria are also quite interesting. When a species starts eating something novel and somewhat-difficult-to-digest as a common or staple food, it seems to invariably be the case that if it survives long-term, it's because it acquired bacteria that help it digest the new food and/or it eats it in mainly fermented form, letting environmental bacteria predigest it. Perhaps our primate ancestors acquired new strains of bacteria that enabled them to consume more raw roots and tubers when the climate got drier and hotter and they were forced to spend more time on the savannah instead of in or near forests.

Plus, over time, adaptation to the novel food tends to produce better capacity to generate the enzymes that digest it. Thus, humans developed more and more ability to produce amylase over time, greatly exceeding other primates in this.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 31, 2013, 08:30:40 pm
I guessed that the reported benefits of the unusual, almost mystical, factor called earthing might be due to reducing oxidative stress, which along with its associated chronic inflammation is more and more looking like one of the most important health issues in the modern world. I Googled it and found this:

http://www.tomcorsonknowles.com/blog/how-earthing-can-reduce-oxidative-stress-and-inflammation (http://www.tomcorsonknowles.com/blog/how-earthing-can-reduce-oxidative-stress-and-inflammation)

I even saw one video on pyroluria in which the vlogger called pyroluria an oxidative stress disorder, which probably could be the name for any chronic modern illness.

Another interesting link is this oxidative stress chain:
Resistant starch feeds bacteria in the cecum and colon ->
which then produce SCFAs ->
the SCFAs then calm the immune system (assuring that our immune system will not kill the bacteria and calming down the overactive immune systems common amongst moderners--thus there are benefits to both the bacteria and the human host), which reduces oxidative stress and inflammation that an overactive immune system can contribute to

You might ask, "Why not consume the SCFAs, such as via butter or coconut oil?" The bacteria produce the SCFAs over a longer period, giving you a steady supply. This is one reason why RS improves sleep--it continues to provide SCFAs, which ensure there is a steady supply of glucose to the brain throughout the night, whereas the SCFAs and glucose from meals tends to run out during the night. Thus, people who wake during the night tend to benefit from RS.

Acquired Mitochondropathy-- a New Paradigm in Western Medicine Explaining Chronic Diseases: The Safety Guide for Prevention and Therapy of Chronic Ailments
books.google.com/books?isbn=940072036X
Enno Freye - 2012
"Another very rapid and effective way the body repletes the low glucose is by conversion of short chain fatty acids to glucose. ... Short chain fatty acids are used to restore circulating glucose and prevent a fall below the person's usual fasting glucose level. ... although initially alcohol helps one to go to sleep, he then wakes up in the small hours with a rebound hypoglycemia."
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 25, 2013, 08:45:14 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehwy4Gq27uY#t=11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehwy4Gq27uY#t=11)
Like many of the greats, his work will not be fully appreciated until long after he is gone.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: Inger on November 25, 2013, 03:54:26 pm
Beautiful video PP. Very touching. I think the fractal thing is magic... i started to think about love... it is fractal too.. it kind of spreads... need to get more generous with it, can only make a better word

Amazing Mandelbrot, he radiates life right before he pass away, totally clear in his brain.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: LePatron7 on November 30, 2013, 09:04:48 pm
B6 supplementation "should be balanced by vitamin B12 and biotin" http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/supplements, (http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/supplements,) which are often included in B complex supplements (though I've read that one should look for ones that contain folate instead of folic acid and Dr. Ron recently changed his Doc's Best multi-vit/mineral to include folate instead of folic acid).

I've seen that folic acid in the form "folic acid" is no good.

http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/folic_acid_dangers_and_prenatal_vitamins.aspx (http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/folic_acid_dangers_and_prenatal_vitamins.aspx)

It turns out the form of folic acids being used in multivitamins and b complex are the cheap form that serves no benefits, just like B12 methylcobalamin vs. cyanacobalamin.

I'm seeing that folate, in the form of methyl folate, plays a big role in pyloria. As well as many other functions, including glutathione production.

http://www.methyl-life.com/a-doctor-explains.html (http://www.methyl-life.com/a-doctor-explains.html)

Has some videos from a doctor describing the methyl folate and it's role in heavy metals, glutathione, autism, and various other things.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 01, 2013, 01:11:08 am
Interesting, thanks, DaBoss, I'll check it out. I hadn't seen methyl folate linked to pyroluria before, but I was curious about it, because of the "methyl" name in some recommended pyroluria supplements and some pyroluria patients talking about how they also have under- or over- methylation. I don't seem to quite fit either of the under- or over- methylation symptom lists, from what I've seen, but I have been curious about it.

Right on about the folic acid; I've seen some supplement sellers replace the folic acid in their supplements with folate after learning how bad the synthetic folic acid is.

I don't recall if I've mentioned it here yet or not, but I'm finding that some months after taking resistant starch, that I'm not needing as much P5P. I haven't heard of the P5P itself causing this improvement, so I think it's the resistant starch. Plus, even if I forget to take P5P, I do pretty well if I remember to eat plenty of RS.
Title: Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
Post by: LePatron7 on December 01, 2013, 01:10:14 pm
Interesting, thanks, DaBoss, I'll check it out. I hadn't seen methyl folate linked to pyroluria before, but I was curious about it, because of the "methyl" name in some recommended pyroluria supplements and some pyroluria patients talking about how they also have under- or over- methylation. I don't seem to quite fit either of the under- or over- methylation symptom lists, from what I've seen, but I have been curious about it.

Right on about the folic acid; I've seen some supplement sellers replace the folic acid in their supplements with folate after learning how bad the synthetic folic acid is.

I actually don't think it's so much that specifically this form of folate is a major contributor to reversing pyroluria and poor methylation. But that such a large percent of the population have difficulty converting folate into the active form (methyl folate) which is the form the body needs. So they have to take methyl folate since they're unable to convert folate into its active form.

Just like P5P is the active form of B6 and many people have difficulty converting regular B6 into its active form (same applies to B12 w/ methylcobalamin and cyanacobalamin), the same applies to methyl folate.

I'm actually noticing some improvements with methyl folate - increased energy, less sleepy, better attention. However I take no folic acid (my b complex and MV use methyl folate), the active form of B12 (methylcobalamin), and P5P B6 which are all supposed to help methylation and pyroluria.