Author Topic: PaleoPhil's Journal  (Read 272654 times)

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Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #825 on: July 14, 2014, 12:45:35 am »
I prefer seaweads, green leek leaves, and garlic,, foods that also have some nutritional contribution and can be eaten without processing.

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #826 on: July 14, 2014, 01:13:28 am »
I eat all of those. It doesn't have to be an either-or.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #827 on: July 14, 2014, 02:42:58 am »
right.   for some here who want to stick to foods they enjoy eating that aren't heated or processed, I included those.   I bet another food would be dried grasses, or fresh for that matter.   It's interesting to me that horses can easily eat too much sugar from young, green lush grasses ( I have horses ) and develop sugar related diseases that can kill them.  Cows on the other hand with their more complex stomachs derive their energy as I believe Phil is suggesting here from the fatty acids produced by the bacteria feeding on the sugars in the grasses.   So in fact, cows are close to zero carb eaters, and horses are sugar eaters.    I imagine there's a more accurate percentage here, meaning each utilizes more or less of each.    But back to the grasses.  For cows to derive their fatty acids ( which eventually plop on the weight and turn their fat yellow)  they have to rely on the bacteria to convert.  Might it be similar to RS promoted for humans.  Bottom line, grasses may be a missing RS food item on the commonly listed RS foods.  Certainly man has eaten grasses forever...

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #828 on: July 14, 2014, 03:45:45 am »
I'll try to simplify it...

In nature:
> cows eat fibery grasses that are resistant to simple digestion and their bacteria ferment the fibers into energy and fats.
> ancestral humans ate plant foods, such as sedge grass tubers, fruits and nuts, that contained prebiotics resistant to simple digestion (such as resistant starch, inulin and pectin) and their bacteria fermented them into energy and fats. Ancestral freshly-killed raw animal foods like raw insects, crustaceans, shellfish and small vertebrates (and later larger vertebrates, like ungulates and sea mammals) also contained prebiotics, such as animal starch (glycogen), mucins, and glycans.
 
When people speak of ZC diets, they normally mean avoiding carby foods, regardless of what fats are generated from them later on. Neither cows nor humans ate chronically ZC diets high in consumed fat, with no carbs and little or no prebiotics, for years at a time (not even the Inuit, Masai, or Nenets). There isn't a single known example of a truly ZC or near-ZC society in human or pre-human history, in the way that ZC is normally represented (such as by the main guru who sparked the ZC fad on the Internet--Bear Stanley).

It helps explain why societies that ate lots of animal foods tended to eat most of them raw when one learns that fresh (or fresh-frozen or fermented) animal foods are higher in prebiotics than cooked. Thus, the Inuit and Nenets ate lots of freshly-killed and fresh-frozen and fermented raw animal foods. Unfortunately, moderners don't have access to as much freshly-killed or fresh-frozen raw animal foods (particularly the organs, skin, connective tissues and fat depots) as traditional HG's did. Luckily, we still have access to plant food sources of prebiotics, albeit not all the ones our ancestors did.

Does that help explain it? It's an oversimplification, of course, but I hope it helps.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 03:57:39 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #829 on: July 14, 2014, 03:54:49 am »
phil, if that was for me, I don't think I need any more explaining, thanks.  Just pointing out that grasses my very well be a long time staple of RS for many peoples. 

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #830 on: July 14, 2014, 03:59:14 am »
I suspect that early on grass tubers were more important than grass seeds, and then over time the latter came to dominate, as societies gravitated toward agriculture. Grass tubers are probably more beneficial.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #831 on: July 14, 2014, 04:04:31 am »
Pre-human primates started using digging sticks at some point, which enabled them to efficiently get at the grass tubers and other roots and tubers, which the ungulates, baboons, chimps, lions, etc., either didn't eat or didn't eat as much of them (baboons and chimps also eat them, just not as much).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #832 on: July 14, 2014, 04:46:57 am »
I'm speaking about the blade of grass itself.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #833 on: July 14, 2014, 06:22:57 am »
The tubers, rather than blades, of savannah grasses, are currently regarded as the bigger source of food of ancient hominids, though who knows what future investigation will reveal.

Quote
Some hominids have grass and sedges diet
By SHAIRA PANELA, GMA NewsNovember 14, 2012 7:48am
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/282172/scitech/science/some-hominids-have-grass-and-sedges-diet
Lee-Thorp also said that A. bahrelghazali probably consumed “underground tubers, bulbs and stems, and papyrus” noting that primates usually have difficulty digesting grass blades.


Two million years ago, human relative 'Nutcracker Man' lived on tiger nuts
January 9, 2014
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm
A new study concludes that ancient ancestors who lived in East Africa between 2.4 million-1.4 million years ago mostly ate tiger nuts with additional nourishment from fruits and invertebrates, like worms and grasshoppers. The study examines the diet of Paranthropus boisei, nicknamed "Nutcracker Man," through studying modern-day baboons in Kenya to help to explain a puzzle that has vexed archaeologists for 50 years.


Ancient human ancestor 'Nutcracker Man' lived on tiger nuts
09 Jan 14
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140109_1.html
Dr Macho, from the School of Archaeology at Oxford University, said: 'I believe that the theory -- that "Nutcracker Man" lived on large amounts of tiger nuts- helps settle the debate about what our early human ancestor ate. On the basis of recent isotope results, these hominins appear to have survived on a diet of C4 foods, which suggests grasses and sedges. Yet these are not high quality foods. What this research tells us is that hominins were selective about the part of the grass that they ate, choosing the grass bulbs at the base of the grass blade as the mainstay of their diet.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #834 on: July 14, 2014, 06:45:32 am »
a lot of 'probably' in there.   I'm not suggesting for a minute that they grazed on grass.  But while hunting or foraging, chewed on especially spring grasses, just as I and many other's have done,, same with dandelion leaves and other herbs and green plants.  I still have not seen evidence  that any fibrous material with sugar or starch, making it to the large intestine isn't food for these bacteria, just as grass does for cows.    That is why I've said several times, that pieces of lettuce, seaweed, corn, carrot, the fibrous parts of oranges or other fruits, nuts,  etc. anything with starchy fiber potentially can feed these fatty acid producing bacteria.   If you know from literature or experience otherwise, please let me know.    And suspect anyone not strictly trying to go as close to Zero Carb as possible are being provided quite a host of foods for their guts. 

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #835 on: July 14, 2014, 08:15:45 am »
a lot of 'probably' in there.
Yup, there's never certainty in science. There's also uncertainty in your and my guesses. It will be interesting to see what future scientific investigation reveals.

Quote
I'm not suggesting for a minute that they grazed on grass.  But while hunting or foraging, chewed on especially spring grasses, just as I and many other's have done,,
Do you mean that probably not a lot in the way of grass blades was wholly grazed/consumed, instead just the occasional chewing/sucking of some grass stalks here and there, and the food focus was more on the tubers and possibly also the seeds? If so, I agree that that's more likely--especially the tubers, it seems, based on the research I cited above and other research and the experience of myself and others.

Quote
I still have not seen evidence  that any fibrous material with sugar or starch, making it to the large intestine isn't food for these bacteria, just as grass does for cows.    That is why I've said several times, that pieces of lettuce, seaweed, corn, carrot, the fibrous parts of oranges or other fruits, nuts,  etc. anything with starchy fiber potentially can feed these fatty acid producing bacteria.   If you know from literature or experience otherwise, please let me know.    And suspect anyone not strictly trying to go as close to Zero Carb as possible are being provided quite a host of foods for their guts.
By "sugar", do you mean fruits? I believe the primary fermentable prebiotic they contain is pectin. Sugars themselves (sucrose, glucose, fructose, galactose, maltose and lactose) are not normally classed as prebiotics, as they are mostly digested in the mouth, stomach and small intestine, rather than the colon.

Do you mean that there are other prebiotics beyond resistant starch (RS isn't yet technically classed as a prebiotic, but for simplicity's sake I'll use that term for all foods that feed gut bacteria), such as inulin, that are also converted into butyrate? If so, I agree with that and I've indicated that myself in the past. It was never about just RS and all the prebiotics are hypothesized to be beneficial in one way or another, even those that don't contribute to butyrate production. Whether they all are or not and to what degree is not written in stone and is a matter for future further investigation.

It seems that RS may have been especially impactful among prebiotics for me and hundreds of other LC Paleo dieters because it's the one that tends to get most thoroughly excluded in such diets. That doesn't mean that the others aren't also important, just that they don't tend to get excluded as severely, from what I've seen, and they also don't tend to be as controversial. Ironically, the passionate backlash against RS only served to further draw attention to the topic at multiple blogs and forums. The primary source of the passion seems to be the word "starch," which seems offputting to many VLCers, perhaps because "starch" was so thoroughly demonized in the past (and another major uproar occurred when Paul Jaminet started using the term "safe starches"--he was criticized by a host of LC gurus, despite himself advocating a LC diet). As a result, at times the voluminous discussion about RS may seem like RS is the sole focus, but that was never the intention.

Hope that clears things up some.

Interestingly, yet another prominent LCer has started writing positively about RS and other prebiotics--Dr. William Davis, author of Wheat Belly:

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2014/07/fertilize-garden-called-bowel-flora/

He joins, Mark Sisson, Tom Naughton, Richard Nikoley, Paul Jaminet, Norm Robillard, Chris Kresser, Dr. Jack Kruse, Prof. Stephan Guyenet, Melissa McEwen and other current and former LCers (I think they all at least tried LC or VLC at some point in their lives, if I'm not mistaken) who have written at least something positive about prebiotics. As these and other folks write more and more positive stuff about prebiotics and more and more positive reports are shared at their blogs and elsewhere, and more and more research is published showing benefits from prebiotics and that they were included in ancestral diets, I'm noticing less and less negative comments about RS and other prebiotics from the fans of these folks and LCers in general. I'm not expecting Dr. Ron Rosedale, Dr. Richard Bernstein or Ray Peat (who's not a LCer, but seems to have a basically low opinion of prebiotics) to follow suit any time soon, though, but who knows, anything can happen. Heck, even Jimmy Moore said he's going to try experimenting with RS.

No doubt, more folks will also go overboard with RS and other prebiotics, as seems to happen with everything.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 09:51:35 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #836 on: July 14, 2014, 10:50:36 am »
You seem to be one of the one or two  on here who really keeps mentioning zero or low low carb.  And to my point those of us who include fibrous and starches bound up with cells of plants, i.e., grasses, sea weeds, greens, root vegetables, raw corn,   and as mentioned the indigestible fibers in fruits that pass through our bowels,,  Are getting food for beneficial bacteria in the colon,, seemingly naturally as part of our non zero carb inclusive diet.     What also isn't mentioned much, that I have seen, is the amount of protein eaten, and how it's prepared, cooked or raw.   I mention this because any undigested proteins will tend to support a different type flora as that of a heavy plant or Rs eater's flora.     I think you've most likely seen accounts of  meat protein being one of the most thoroughly digested foods.   But cook that meat, eat too much, combine it with foods that reduce the bodies' digestive juices effectiveness,  more than the body can utilize in one digestion and as with RS, particles will pass along to the colon undigested and able to support other floras.    which brings to question those cooked meat eaters, are they digesting their proteins, do they need more RS to offset the balance of an acid or alkaline colon, especially to encourage the populations of butyrate bacteria.    This is at least where my interest lies, and not the unending accounts of how many have suffered do to low low carb ...     I'm wondering what would happen if you preached RS in Washington's zero carb forum, obviously with a different name, and supply the evidence that the Inuit did eat RS in the various forms,  that the plains Indians at least when they ate fresh kill were getting animal forms of RS.  You might just save some of them over there. 

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #837 on: July 14, 2014, 07:16:50 pm »
You seem to be one of the one or two  on here who really keeps mentioning zero or low low carb.
Let's hope you're right and that chronic ZC/VLC is nearing its last death throes. It does seem to be rapidly dying out.

Recently I saw someone ask if kefir and honey are ZC. What next, pure cane sugar? ;D  Quite a far cry from the old days when even liver, eggs and brains were sneered at as too-high in carbs by many ZCers.

Quote
And to my point those of us who include fibrous and starches bound up with cells of plants, i.e., grasses, sea weeds, greens, root vegetables, raw corn,   and as mentioned the indigestible fibers in fruits that pass through our bowels,,
Interesting, do you eat significant amounts of grasses and raw corn? What kinds? I suspect that raw corn would contain significant RS. Have you tried to discuss this at all? I'm guessing the reaction would not be much better than the reaction to RS was early on.

On a related note, some people who have been consuming plenty of RS report that their ability to digest corn has improved dramatically. I'm tempted to try some corn myself, as my corn digestion was terrible toward the end of my pre-Paleo days, and your comment on corn has further tweaked my curiosity.

Quote
Are getting food for beneficial bacteria in the colon,, seemingly naturally as part of our non zero carb inclusive diet.
Yeah, like I indicated multiple times now, it was never a matter of RS vs. other prebiotics and fibers. It was always more along the lines of the more the merrier (though probably not so much the more modern ones, like bran).

Quote
What also isn't mentioned much, that I have seen, is the amount of protein eaten, and how it's prepared, cooked or raw.
Duck Dodgers did a good job of finally addressing that at Free the Animal. It was quite interesting.

Quote
This is at least where my interest lies, and not the unending accounts of how many have suffered do to low low carb ...
There seems to be no winning. If I don't provide plenty of examples, then the complaint is that I didn't provide enough evidence. If I do, then the complaint is that it's too much.

Quote
I'm wondering what would happen if you preached RS in Washington's zero carb forum, obviously with a different name, and supply the evidence that the Inuit did eat RS in the various forms,  that the plains Indians at least when they ate fresh kill were getting animal forms of RS.  You might just save some of them over there.
Not likely. I'd be quickly banned. Charles is quick on the trigger and warns people that his forum is only for true believers in ZC, which is his choice, as it's his forum.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #838 on: August 17, 2014, 02:46:05 am »
Recent Iodine Warnings:

A couple people warned against taking too much iodine (such as more than 0.5 mg/day) recently. Not much explanatory detail was provided and I've already expressed qualms about high doses of iodine, so I'll just post this in my journal for now in case anyone's interested and for possible future reference.

Padmaja Doniparthi, MD warned to keep iodine intake moderate because it displaces other metals, according to Jimmy Moore, who saw Doniparthi say this in a presentation at The American Society of Bariatric Physicians Spring 2014 Conference: Diagnosis to Treatment—Recognizing Obesity as a Disease
http://bariatrictimes.com/the-american-society-of-bariatric-physicians-spring-2014-conference-diagnosis-to-treatment-recognizing-obesity-as-a-disease

Ray Peat warned that taking above 0.5 mg / day of iodine taken chronically can cause thyroid dysfunction, such as hypothyroid. He has also warned that VLC diets can cause hypothyroid, so if correct then doing both would presumably risk a double-whammy.
Starting around 11:06 in part 2 of this podcast - http://oneradionetwork.com/health/dr-ray-peat-ph-d-answering-a-plethora-of-questions-regarding-health-diet-and-nutrition-january-1-2014 -
It seems there's something to these warnings. Here's a negative experience from iodine supplementation recently reported by a former patient of Dr. Brownstein:

Quote
http://chriskresser.com/iodine-for-hypothyroidism-like-gasoline-on-a-fire#comment-172293

Tammy Kowalski
APRIL 10, 2014 AT 9:28 AM

Hello, I have Hashimoto’s, my blood test showed antibodies. I currently take about 60 mg of Naturethroid daily.I have tried iodine from Dr Brownstein, he is my mother’s Doctor. I saw him one time and he helped my thyroid symptoms by discovering that I had allergies to casein and gluten which were causing further inflammation to my thyroid. When I was on the Iodine after 6wks I developed a goiter, had horrible heart palpitations and my normally very regular menstrual cycle became erratic, I also developed painful and swollen breasts and worsening PMS symptoms, the worst part was my heart feeling like it was skipping a beat and then thumping really hard on the next beat. I also developed insomnia. After stopping the Iodine on my own suspicions everything went away after about a week or so. I have been fine on the Naturethroid now and my allergen free diet. However 2 months ago I switched my multi vitamin to one with 300 mcg of iodine in it without thinking. I missed a period, and had horrible cramping and painful swollen breasts, and started to develop bad heart palpitations and anxiety symptoms in my chest, also tightness in my chest, they kept getting worse, skipped beats and thumping about 3xs per minute all day, very scary. I finally figured out that it was the iodine in the vitamins. I also noticed my thyroid gland looked larger in my neck. I have been off the vitamins now for 3 weeks and I am back to normal. So now I know for sure that I need to stay away from iodine except for what I receive naturally in sea salt, that seems to be okay, I take a teaspoon daily of sea salt.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #839 on: October 01, 2014, 01:24:53 am »
Good news on the dental front. There was a new hygeniest at my dental cleaning visit today and I asked about the soft spot in my tooth (which my previous dentist had said was a cavity that needed to be filled right quick) that we have been tracking and she didn't know what I was talking about because she detect any hole or soft spot. The dentist checked and said that it has re-mineralized. It took a couple years, but dietary change  plus decent dental hygeine and cleanings 4x per year seems to have worked. Re: diet I combined elements from raw Paleo + Cure Tooth Decay (book) + emphasis on prebiotic foods. It ends up resembling a raw-oriented combination or cross of the traditional diets of Irish, Turkish and Hadzabe'e (hunter-gatherer) peoples--which wasn't by design, it just ended up that way after trying and testing various foods, though when I noticed the similarities and read more about those diets, they gave me ideas about what other foods to try.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 01:31:10 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #840 on: October 01, 2014, 02:27:03 am »
Can you share your dental hygeine and what to order at the dentist the kind of cleaning you need? 
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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #841 on: October 01, 2014, 08:34:13 am »
Right-o, I use these things to varying degrees in dental hygiene:

sparkling mineral water
tea tree oil toothpicks
a hydrogen peroxide + water mix in an oral irrigator gizmo
soft bristle toothbrush
Oral-B electric toothbrush
swishing or chewing centrifuged (raw) coconut oil and raw suet
eating plenty of prebiotics
limiting foods that create dental scum for me and emphasizing foods that clean my teeth
various tips from the Cure Tooth Decay guy--such as switching to a holistic dentist listed at a Website he recommended

The cleanings are typical dental cleanings--I just do them more often than most (4x per year); this wasn't enough--I had to do more, rather than rely on just that, as dental plaque accumulated rapidly (and two of my grandparents ended up with dentures)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #842 on: October 01, 2014, 09:18:25 am »
Thanks Phil!  My 13 year old boy will surely benefit from your experience. :)

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #843 on: May 13, 2015, 09:33:04 am »
But all foods are skyrocketing.
Tyler posted an article about how it's mostly the healthy food prices that are rising, with junk food prices staying low or even falling, particularly in the developing world:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/fruit-and-veg-prices-soar-while-junk-food-prices-gets-cheaper/msg130087/#msg130087

Unfortunately, folks like us tend to eat healthier foods, so this impacts us. There is very little in the way of grassfed organs or fats in the local markets around here any more these days, after the prices shot through the roof for much of it and may have killed the already limited demand, at least for now. Rather sad. There used to be quite a few items years ago. Luckily, the farmers markets are getting larger and starting to carry a bit more organs and unusual cuts of meat, though that is still rather limited. Perhaps the moderate growth in the farmers markets are also a bit of a factor in the decline of specialty meats at the markets, even though the prices at the farmers markets are actually a bit more for these foods.

The Trader Joe's that opened locally recently has been a help with the food budget. They even have a raw honey there that's not bad and cheaper than the meat Van advocated as having good pricing, though I still only consume small amounts and mostly seasonally.

The butter oil/CLO mix I was using intermittent modest amounts of ran out some time ago and I'm not planning on replacing it. I'm trying Vitamin A and D topicals now, which I learned about some months ago. I figure that may be safer than internal A & D supplements like the BO/CLO mix, though I don't know how well the topicals will work.

Van, have you looked into topical A or D at all? If so, what do you think of it? My PA wants me to get my D level up. I'm also trying to get more sun when possible.

The thing that has helped my dental health most has been Gerolsteiner mineral water--much more so than the past ZC experiment, which surprised me. It helps instantly, which also surprised me. It's also cheap at Trader Joe's, and cheaper and more effective than pricey trace mineral liquids I had tried. Wish I had known about Gerolsteiner years ago.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 10:01:54 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline kalo

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #844 on: July 13, 2015, 07:38:16 am »
Dear Phil,
Thanks for all the Gut Health info.
I am predominately Carnivore and I will be for a while. But I do not believe humans are meant to ONLY consume meat. So for months I would eat meat a couple days, then feel the need to snack on "healthy veggies" - often stomach upset and the runs followed. However, learning about FODMAPS helped greatly. I still have much to work out: like coconut oil and butter don't seem to benefit me, slippery elm tea feels great, and I have been to afraid to reintroduce FODMAPs.

But the catch is, I am therefore missing prebiotics. My problems came after two years of antibiotics, so my ruined flora almost killed me (seriously). However great I feel eating carnivore, I know the journey is not complete. Do certain prebiotics cause problems for you, which are your favorite? I got a bag of the potato starch but having started yet. I am unsure if it will just feed the bad guys in my system. I know the only true way is to listen to your own body but support and advice are two things I always appreciate.
Hope to hear back from ya, Kalo

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #845 on: July 13, 2015, 10:57:21 am »
Glad to be of service.
My problems came after two years of antibiotics, so my ruined flora almost killed me (seriously).
Yeah, my problems worsened after multiple rounds of antiobiotics in the past and I didn't make the connection until years later. I have noticed that there anecdotally seems to be a high rate of past antibiotic treatments among people with chronic health issues, particularly those who like me notice early improvements from VLC diets, which I suspect is in part because the microbes that help with metabolizing plant foods get whacked by antibiotics. The improvements on VLC then get misinterpreted by many to thinking that VLC is best. Carb avoidance unfortunately doesn't fix the underlying problems and I have now seen countless reports from VLCers that their carb tolerance further worsens on VLC, like mine seemed to do.

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However great I feel eating carnivore,
I did too early on, which I found to unfortunately be it's most pernicious aspect, as it can be quite misleading.

Quote
Do certain prebiotics cause problems for you, which are your favorite? I got a bag of the potato starch but having started yet. I am unsure if it will just feed the bad guys in my system. I know the only true way is to listen to your own body but support and advice are two things I always appreciate.
Hope to hear back from ya, Kalo
I'm not hugely fond of Bob's Red Mill potato starch, though it was the RS supplement that I first tried and got decent results from. I'm also concerned by seeing multiple people report symptoms akin to those of nightshade allergies when taking it, though some stuck it out and reported that they decreased (I'm NOT recommending that). I don't like to come across as prescribing, but since you asked, my current RS supplement faves (aside from whole foods that are rich in prebiotics, which I try to emphasize, but don't always succeed in doing so in this modern world) are tigernut flour (I have been using the Organic Gemini brand) and mung bean starch (multiple brands from Taiwan purchased at a local Thai food market--they all seem to work for me). I sift the tigernut flour through a mesh strainer, because the largest fibery bits are rather unpleasant and also as a precaution in case Ray Peat and others are right about persorption of large starch particles being dangerous. I also figure that our ancestors probably chewed and spit out the most unpleasantly gritty bits of fibery plants, though it does appear to help move the bowels, so when that's in order I'll down all of it.

The tigernut flour has been the best gentle remedy for constipation I've tried, and I've tried many, :P ;D , including ones popular at this forum like Iguana's favorite--cassia fistula (I reacted badly)--and Natural Calm magnesium powder (that plus psyllium husk powder works second best for me after tigernut flour).

The mung bean starch relaxes my muscles, gives me a sense of well being, and seems to help with my dental health, of all things (though the mineral water has been the biggest help of all on that note). I like it mixed with Gerolsteiner mineral water, as a sort of horchata. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horchata I find it to be quite pleasant--significantly more so than the BRM potato starch.

I also now have lots of dream recall, whereas in the past there was little or none aside from a period where there were many nightmares. Non-nightmare dream recall is turning out to be an important health marker associated with such things as redox potential and memory. It's one of the things I was not warned about by proponents of LC Paleo and wish I had been. It turns out there are many things that VLC/keto proponents either don't tell you or dismiss out of hand without much investigation. Thank goodness I also checked out other sources over the years and kept my mind open. One thing I've noticed is that the more that diet proponents repeat a mantra over and over (such as LCers saying things along the lines of "eat MOAR fat!" and "all carbs are converted to sugar and sugar is poison!", and Peatarians saying "eat MOAR sugar!"--to be fair, the latter is not nearly as common, though there is some of that), the more skeptical I should be of it. If these claims really worked so well, the proponents wouldn't have to keep repeating them over and over like religious mantras. It would become self-evident.

My recent last blood test results were the best I think I've ever had (though still room for some improvement), so I seem to be headed in the right direction. As always, your mileage may vary, and I'm not prescribing for anyone else.

It was a bit surprising to learn that FODMAP foods are actually quite healthy when one has the gut microbes to help metabolize them. It tends to get ignored, but even some propopents of GAPs and autoimmune protocol diets talk about re-introducing such foods after a temporary elimination period. It pays to dig beneath the headlines into the underlying data, and I find that our ancestors tend to be better guides (they didn't eschew FODMAPs) than the latest "science" news.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 11:14:34 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline kalo

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #846 on: August 22, 2015, 01:15:32 am »
So, if your  problems originally improved after eating carnivore style, do you think that is perhaps an important step in the process of healing the gut? The other day I pulled a raw beet from the garden and munched on it. The taste was great but I soon had a swelling feeling in my throat, which is very new for me. I fear eating mostly meat is making me more sensitive, and yes I know you pointed that out. But it feels as though, every inclusion of starch or carb feeds the bad bacteria first. I can tell with the antibiotics, acne and beneficial effects of VLC, I am clearly on a similar path that you took.

So can you think back to when your skin was still constantly breaking out and you were beginning to learn diet was the answer. What other things did you attempt? Perhaps fermented veggies or getting medical tests. I continue to eat close to ZC but I know with the right protocol, I can start getting some healthy bacteria and carbs in me again.   

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #847 on: August 22, 2015, 05:10:11 am »
wow, so I finally grew some balls and had a teaspoon and a half of PS in my slippery elm tea, with a quarter teaspoon of celtic salt. All of a sudden my constantly tight neck relaxed and my mood, which was not even bad today, improved. Pretty cool feeling.

I guess that was the next step..

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #848 on: August 22, 2015, 07:13:05 am »
So, if your  problems originally improved after eating carnivore style, do you think that is perhaps an important step in the process of healing the gut?
No way to be sure. Possibly for me. Not necessary for many others, based on their reports.

I had to take things slow and cautiously at first, carefully testing various things out.

Quote
I can tell with the antibiotics, acne and beneficial effects of VLC, I am clearly on a similar path that you took.
Sounds like it.

Quote
So can you think back to when your skin was still constantly breaking out and you were beginning to learn diet was the answer. What other things did you attempt? Perhaps fermented veggies or getting medical tests.
Yes, and topical and oral medicines, OTC remedies, supplements, home remedies and such.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline kalo

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Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« Reply #849 on: September 11, 2015, 05:08:10 am »
Quote
Yes, and topical and oral medicines, OTC remedies, supplements, home remedies and such.
I guess it is just trial and error..

Dr. BG's site, animal farm has been a new source of learning for me. However, she is big on obtaining R3 over R2. I took that to heart and have been eating more soaked, cooked, and cooled chickpeas and mung beans. But, honestly I think I just felt better eating meat and the PS. Are you also incorporating R3 into your diet?

 I can believe the Legumes are not necessarily helping my inflamed gut but healing needs to take place at the microbial level. And adding other fiber with the RS is apparently the most therapeutic (hence the fiber in beans). So my intention to weed, seed, and feed the gut is underway. The weeding, I don't want to attempt until I order the GI Effects stool tests from the doctors.. and that is not for another month  :(

So I can at least feed the gut, and will get some tigernut flour. Can you give me a name for the Mung bean starch, I live in the mountains and there really are no Thai markets around.. I don't think. Relaxing my neck muscles is a goal for me, PS helps but I think it will continue to improve.

Your help is superb. Thanks

 

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