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Offline The Barbarian

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Eating frequency
« on: August 22, 2009, 01:27:03 am »

 I'm wondering what some of you would have to say about the advantages of eating large lees frequent meals on a raw meat diet. Say 2 meals a day  one morning  one at night   over    eating smaller amounts frequently throughout the day. Any info. on this would be appreciated as I feel there is some significance to this issue  I'm just not sure what it is,  thanks in advance for any knowledge you may share.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 01:29:26 am »
Most raw, zero-carbers(and many low-carbers like myself) prefer eating 1 large meal a day. This is partly for convenience reasons(ie less time wasted on eating throughout the day), and partly because the high-fat-content of the raw meat they eat lets them last, hunger-wise, for 24 hours, very easily.3 meals a day is just a symptom of cooked-diets, IMo.
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Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 01:46:02 am »
I eat constantly whether I'm eating mostly meats or mostly fruits & veggies. I love food!
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2009, 05:49:25 am »
I eat constantly whether I'm eating mostly meats or mostly fruits & veggies. I love food!

Not me, I stop eating while I'm sleeping  ;)
No, as a matter of fact I eat twice a day, once around noon and once in the evening (and also when I see some good food, and when I'm hungry between the meals and even when I don't know what to do and when I wake up at night and also when I'm angry and when I'm fed up and...) Seriously, twice a day is enough, it works fine for me and for most others. If I eat more often, I do not feel so well.

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Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2009, 08:07:23 am »
I eat as often as I'm even a little hungry, because I'm trying to bulk up a bit, which tends to be 3-4 times per day. When I tried 1 meal a day I lost too much weight.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 09:08:12 am »
Thats interesting I was expecting to hear the opposite. I actually imagined that eating smaller amounts more frequently would speed the matabolism and make you lose more wher as 1 huge  or 2  large meals a day would cause your metabolism to slow down  and then that one big meal would cause you to bulk up more. Anyone else have any ideas or expiriences on that issue?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009, 09:33:22 am »
I thought it would too, but one thing I found is there is only so much I can get down in a single short time span. I have more time to consume more food if I spread it out over the day--grab a quick breakfast of raw eggs (takes about 3 minutes to crack em and get em down) and some jerky; shove some of the jerky into my pocket and eat it during the walk to work; eat some jerky with tallow while reading my morning emails; eat some more at lunch; then eat a big meal of raw meat and sliced suet at night. I can eat nearly all day long and don't get overfull if much of it is jerky and tallow. Plain ground raw meat does fill me up, though. The concentrated flavor of the jerky keeps me wanting more (yum yum!) and I can get the semi-soft tallow down faster than I can the hard, fibrous suet.

I heat my jerky and tallow at low temps in an effort to be as raw as possible, but I find I do need it so far to avoid losing weight.

I still need to eat more, though, so I plan on doing a raw-egg blasting approach soon, as that seems to be the easiest way for me to get calories (though expensive).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009, 10:03:21 am »
What is tallow?

Do you make your own jerky?

How much do u weigh?

Do you work out?  if  so  what do you do?

Just curious :-)

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 01:17:55 am »
Tallow is rendered suet or bone marrow--usually suet. Yes, I make my own low-temp jerky. The only gluten-free jerky I've ever seen offered for sale was priced around $50/lb, as I recall and commercial jerky is usually heated at too high temps and way too salty. I also make my own pemmican, as I much prefer it to the US Wellness brand, and it's cheaper. I render the tallow at low temps to keep it essentially raw. It means it can't be preserved for as long, but I make small batches that don't need to be preserved long anyway. So, no need for arguments over whether pemmican is sufficiently raw--it's a win-win.

My weight had fallen to 122 lbs several years ago while on a low-carb, moderate-fat Paleo diet that still included some stuff like nightshades and allegedly "Paleo" carbs like bananas (inedible during Paleo times) that I hadn't figured out I should eliminate yet. I've got it up to 133 now. Ironically, I was lifting weights when I weighed 122 lbs, including squats, pull-ups, shoulder press, bench press and dead lift, and I'm not now (for strength exercises I'm currently just doing calisthenics). In retrospect, I think the bad-for-me foods I was still eating (without knowing they were bad for me) were sickening me and offsetting any benefit of lifting. Another factor is that no one in my family has big muscles. Even though my grandfather was as strong as an iron rail, he was as thin as one too.

The female head trainer at the weight room I used was thin like me despite lifting enormous weights and being a champion lifter, and the same was true for one of the stars of the gym, a young boy who was also a champion lifter and nearly as thin as me. Seeing those folks was pretty demoralizing, as I was lifting to try to bulk up, not to win contests. One of the strange things is, they did some of the types of lifts that are supposed to bulk you up, like squats, and they lifted massive weights.

135 is what I weighed for most of my adult life. I'm not looking to become a body builder, but I would like to get it to 150, which is about what my father weighs (and he's a mostly-Paleo dieter)--so that seems feasible.

Right now I do calisthenics: push ups, bicycle maneuver, crunches (vertical leg, reverse, etc.), squats (standard, frog, toe), single-leg calf raises, dips, pelvic tilts. I mix it up some for variety.

I also try to incorporate exercise into my daily life: putting some sprints into my daily walk to and from work wearing a pack, taking the stairs instead of the elevator (5 flights), lugging stuff around at work instead of using push-carts, walking downtown, using rowboats and canoes/kayaks instead of motorboats, carrying groceries instead of using a shopping cart, etc.

I'm wondering what people think of these no-damage-to-door pull up bars that seem like they would be good for my apartment if they work:

http://www.malibuwholesale.com/Exercise-Fitness/Accessories/Deluxe-3-in-1-Door-Pull-p5914202.html
http://www.seriusfitness.com/Chin-Up-Bars/105/
http://www.jumpusa.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=J&Product_Code=DOORWAYGYM&cvsfa=1182&cvsfe=2&cvsfp=DOORWAYGYM

I also do a yoga pose or two now and then (such as eagle pose, toe stand, standing cow face arms) to check the progress in my balance, flexibility and joint strength and thus make sure I'm eating right (and to demonstrate to others some of the benefits that eating right have had for me), rather than as an exercise. I became unimpressed by yoga after trying it for some years. I had taken it up as a stress reliever, to relieve back pain, and to try to improve flexibility in some of my stiff muscles, but never noticed much benefit from it other than temporary relaxation. My balance and flexibility only improved very slightly after years of doing it, whereas both improved rapidly and dramatically when I later improved my diet while not doing any yoga. Also, my father is a retired Phys. Ed. professor with a degree in exercise physiology, who taught yoga among other things, and who taught me that some of the poses are counterproductive (which I further confirmed with some research of my own). So I only do poses that I consider physiologically appropriate.

Wearing flat/flexible-soled shoes has further strengthened my calves, arches and toes. I find myself popping up onto my toes unconsciously these days, as they are very strong now and it feels good to do it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2009, 01:27:05 am »


 yoga among other things, and who taught me that some of the poses are counterproductive (which I further confirmed with some research of my own).


Which ones?  I do downward dog, cow face, headstands, shoulder stands, and plow/snail. 

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2009, 08:27:11 am »
Tallow is rendered suet or bone marrow--usually suet. Yes, I make my own low-temp jerky. The only gluten-free jerky I've ever seen offered for sale was priced around $50/lb, as I recall and commercial jerky is usually heated at too high temps and way too salty. I also make my own pemmican, as I much prefer it to the US Wellness brand, and it's cheaper. I render the tallow at low temps to keep it essentially raw. It means it can't be preserved for as long, but I make small batches that don't need to be preserved long anyway. So, no need for arguments over whether pemmican is sufficiently raw--it's a win-win.

My weight had fallen to 122 lbs several years ago while on a low-carb, moderate-fat Paleo diet that still included some stuff like nightshades and allegedly "Paleo" carbs like bananas (inedible during Paleo times) that I hadn't figured out I should eliminate yet. I've got it up to 133 now. Ironically, I was lifting weights when I weighed 122 lbs, including squats, pull-ups, shoulder press, bench press and dead lift, and I'm not now (for strength exercises I'm currently just doing calisthenics). In retrospect, I think the bad-for-me foods I was still eating (without knowing they were bad for me) were sickening me and offsetting any benefit of lifting. Another factor is that no one in my family has big muscles. Even though my grandfather was as strong as an iron rail, he was as thin as one too.

The female head trainer at the weight room I used was thin like me despite lifting enormous weights and being a champion lifter, and the same was true for one of the stars of the gym, a young boy who was also a champion lifter and nearly as thin as me. Seeing those folks was pretty demoralizing, as I was lifting to try to bulk up, not to win contests. One of the strange things is, they did some of the types of lifts that are supposed to bulk you up, like squats, and they lifted massive weights.

135 is what I weighed for most of my adult life. I'm not looking to become a body builder, but I would like to get it to 150, which is about what my father weighs (and he's a mostly-Paleo dieter)--so that seems feasible.

Right now I do calisthenics: push ups, bicycle maneuver, crunches (vertical leg, reverse, etc.), squats (standard, frog, toe), single-leg calf raises, dips, pelvic tilts. I mix it up some for variety.

I also try to incorporate exercise into my daily life: putting some sprints into my daily walk to and from work wearing a pack, taking the stairs instead of the elevator (5 flights), lugging stuff around at work instead of using push-carts, walking downtown, using rowboats and canoes/kayaks instead of motorboats, carrying groceries instead of using a shopping cart, etc.

I'm wondering what people think of these no-damage-to-door pull up bars that seem like they would be good for my apartment if they work:

http://www.malibuwholesale.com/Exercise-Fitness/Accessories/Deluxe-3-in-1-Door-Pull-p5914202.html
http://www.seriusfitness.com/Chin-Up-Bars/105/
http://www.jumpusa.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=J&Product_Code=DOORWAYGYM&cvsfa=1182&cvsfe=2&cvsfp=DOORWAYGYM

I also do a yoga pose or two now and then (such as eagle pose, toe stand, standing cow face arms) to check the progress in my balance, flexibility and joint strength and thus make sure I'm eating right (and to demonstrate to others some of the benefits that eating right have had for me), rather than as an exercise. I became unimpressed by yoga after trying it for some years. I had taken it up as a stress reliever, to relieve back pain, and to try to improve flexibility in some of my stiff muscles, but never noticed much benefit from it other than temporary relaxation. My balance and flexibility only improved very slightly after years of doing it, whereas both improved rapidly and dramatically when I later improved my diet while not doing any yoga. Also, my father is a retired Phys. Ed. professor with a degree in exercise physiology, who taught yoga among other things, and who taught me that some of the poses are counterproductive (which I further confirmed with some research of my own). So I only do poses that I consider physiologically appropriate.

Wearing flat/flexible-soled shoes has further strengthened my calves, arches and toes. I find myself popping up onto my toes unconsciously these days, as they are very strong now and it feels good to do it.




Wow, Tallow sounds like good stuff, can you advise me how to go about getting some?

Thats very interesting about the wrong foods keeping you from gaining muscle mass when you were lifting heavy. Somewhere on this forum I saw some info. about compounds in certain carbs doing damage to muscle proteins,   it sounds related. There are certain body types that just like to stay skinny (ectomorph) although they can become very strong. Good to hear that by eliminating certain unhealthy foods your body was able to add some muscle. That puts interesting theory's in my mind. At 150 pounds and actively athletic I'm wondering if you know approx. how many grams of protein and how many grams of fat you consume on ave. in a day.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2009, 08:59:41 pm »
Tallow is heated suet so is not recommended on this diet, given the heat-created toxins involved in tallow. Better to buy raw suet and eat it raw. Incidentally, I should add that tallow is also used for making  candlewax and soap.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 01:07:31 am »
Wow, Tallow sounds like good stuff, can you advise me how to go about getting some?
As Tyler pointed out, tallow is not really promoted as an optimal food here, and I am mainly using it as a practical compromise and transition food, rather than as an optimal food, because it's not socially acceptable for me to eat raw meat and suet at work, but I can just barely get away with jerky and tallow or pemmican. Plus, I need to keep my weight up and I find I can eat more jerky and tallow or pemmican than I can plain raw meat and suet/marrow.

In the context of your goal of bodybuilding, tallow and pemmican may also be appropropriate, as long as one understands that it is a compromise made to better enable bodybuilding rather than health optimization. I agree with Lex Rooker that tallow and pemmican are second-rate to raw meat and fat when it comes to general health.

Having expressed those caveats, I think it's safe for me to refer you to Lex Rooker's pemmican manual for further information on tallow and pemmican, as it is the best source I've seen on the subject: www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf -- and I also recommend reading everything you can by Lex, as he is the single best source of info on nutrition I have encountered and I owe my improving health in part to the information he has compiled and generously shared with the world. That doesn't mean he's perfect, of course, and I'm still trying to catch him making an error somewhere. :D

Quote
Somewhere on this forum I saw some info. about compounds in certain carbs doing damage to muscle proteins,   it sounds related.
Interesting. I don't recall seeing that. If you come across it again, could you PM me a link to it, please?

Quote
There are certain body types that just like to stay skinny (ectomorph) although they can become very strong. Good to hear that by eliminating certain unhealthy foods your body was able to add some muscle. That puts interesting theory's in my mind. At 150 pounds and actively athletic I'm wondering if you know approx. how many grams of protein and how many grams of fat you consume on ave. in a day.
Yes, I definitely inherited a skinny type of body. I tend to take a pretty relaxed approach to diet and exercise these days and am therefore not too good about measuring things. My main current way of keeping track is to weigh myself now and then and try to increase my food intake and strength-exercise intensity if I'm not continuing to gain weight.

Tallow is heated suet so is not recommended on this diet, given the heat-created toxins involved in tallow. Better to buy raw suet and eat it raw. Incidentally, I should add that tallow is also used for making  candlewax and soap.
In one of the posts to newbies it says that 100% adherence to a raw diet is not necessary here:

"A 100% RPD is certainly not required, as we are all on our own path to health.  In fact, within the RPD movement, there are many subgroups that exist and are welcome here." http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/welcoming-commitee/welcome-new-members!-please-read/msg5604/#msg5604

And there is also this:

"Not all RAFers/RPDers go fully 100% raw. This is understandable, given the social pressures to eat cooked-foods(indeed most 100% RAFers I know of, already have families/partners who are also 100% raw). It’s usually stated that, for the best/speediest health-recovery, it’s best to go at least 85% raw, for best results, which the majority of RAFers practise, given that better  health is the most cited reason for doing such a diet." http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/advice-on-how-to-get-used-to-raw-food-diets-and-how-to-handle-social-situations-while-doing-a-raw-palaeolithic-diet/

Despite that, I have gone out of my way to honor the raw nature of the forum and have explained that I only heat my jerky and tallow to low levels that would widely be considered raw (and thus illegal on the US market). Perhaps you assumed that I heat my tallow to cooking temps. which might damage it? Since I do not make tallow for food preservation, but rather for the reasons I listed above, I do not heat my tallow to damaging levels. Maybe it would help if I called it melted suet instead of tallow? It's more of a mouthful, but it is probably more accurate.

I choose to let the remark about candlewax and soap pass, since I wonder whether you may just be using it to irritate and I think you are too intelligent to consider it a serious point. I also doubt that anyone finds it a convincing reason to avoid melted suet, so it's probably not worthy of debate.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2009, 01:33:13 am »
Despite that, I have gone out of my way to honor the raw nature of the forum and have explained that I only heat my jerky and tallow to low levels that would widely be considered raw (and thus illegal on the US market). Perhaps you assumed that I heat my tallow to cooking temps. which might damage it? Since I do not make tallow for food preservation, but rather for the reasons I listed above, I do not heat my tallow to damaging levels. Maybe it would help if I called it melted suet instead of tallow? It's more of a mouthful, but it is probably more accurate.

I choose to let the remark about candlewax and soap pass, since I wonder whether you may just be using it to irritate and I think you are too intelligent to consider it a serious point. I also doubt that anyone finds it a convincing reason to avoid melted suet, so it's probably not worthy of debate.


Tallow can be made at below 40°C if the fat is well ground. So it can be technically said raw, even if I think it is nearly raw. It does not taste cooked or burned, and must be stored in the fridge. I have no reaction with "raw" tallow, but can't tolerate well tallow made at higher temperature (burps, headach, etc.).

Nonetheless, even if it is a good compromise, It still stands second after raw fat!

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 02:11:32 am »
Tallow can be made at below 40°C if the fat is well ground. So it can be technically said raw, even if I think it is nearly raw. It does not taste cooked or burned, and must be stored in the fridge. I have no reaction with "raw" tallow, but can't tolerate well tallow made at higher temperature (burps, headach, etc.).

Nonetheless, even if it is a good compromise, It still stands second after raw fat!
I know what you mean. One time I was making jerky and didn't pay attention to the temperature and dried it at the high temp that is usually recommended. Yuck! Much worse than my low-temp jerky.

Another time I heated tallow at high temp because time was short. Again, yuck! I think I overdid it, because it tasted burnt to me--but my nephews still loved it (maybe because they eat a cooked diet?).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 05:04:16 pm »
adherence to a raw diet is not necessary here:

"A 100% RPD is certainly not required, as we are all on our own path to health.  In fact, within the RPD movement, there are many subgroups that exist and are welcome here." http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/welcoming-commitee/welcome-new-members!-please-read/msg5604/#msg5604

And there is also this:

"Not all RAFers/RPDers go fully 100% raw. This is understandable, given the social pressures to eat cooked-foods(indeed most 100% RAFers I know of, already have families/partners who are also 100% raw). It’s usually stated that, for the best/speediest health-recovery, it’s best to go at least 85% raw, for best results, which the majority of RAFers practise, given that better  health is the most cited reason for doing such a diet." http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/advice-on-how-to-get-used-to-raw-food-diets-and-how-to-handle-social-situations-while-doing-a-raw-palaeolithic-diet/

Despite that, I have gone out of my way to honor the raw nature of the forum and have explained that I only heat my jerky and tallow to low levels that would widely be considered raw (and thus illegal on the US market). Perhaps you assumed that I heat my tallow to cooking temps. which might damage it? Since I do not make tallow for food preservation, but rather for the reasons I listed above, I do not heat my tallow to damaging levels. Maybe it would help if I called it melted suet instead of tallow? It's more of a mouthful, but it is probably more accurate.

I choose to let the remark about candlewax and soap pass, since I wonder whether you may just be using it to irritate and I think you are too intelligent to consider it a serious point. I also doubt that anyone finds it a convincing reason to avoid melted suet, so it's probably not worthy of debate.


Firstly, the point I made re tallow being used for making soap and candelwax is highly appropriate as it illustrates the point about how tallow(heated suet) isn't really suitable as a proper food on this forum.

Secondly, I myself inserted those statements about how a rawpalaeodiet doesn't have to be adhered to 100% as people will have various social reasons compelling them to eat cooked occasionally. However, this is not an excuse to suggest that tallow is remotely healthy(or even acceptable, except as a dire necessity re eating at work or whatever). My above statement is merely an acceptance that we occasionally have to eat very unhealthy foods (and compromise our health slightly) so as to fit in with other (SMD-eating) acquaintances, not an endorsement of a partially-cooked diet. So, best we have 100% rawpalaeo as a potential aim for the forum, if not usually attainable. The alternative would be ending up with a laissez-faire approach where we don't mind people routinely making absurd claims  about  how they supposedly do fine on cooked mcdonald's hamburgers or (pasteurised) ice-cream or semolina pudding or whatever. Vinny Pinto, more or less, openly advocates such a 50% raw/50% cooked partial approach and it doesn't work, healthwise, anyway.

Secondly, there is  the fact that this is a RAW, PALAEO forum - so, while it might be acceptable for people like superinfinity to proclaim the advantages of a raw vegan diet or cooked tallow on the hot topics forum, it's not really appropriate anywhere else(well, except the weston-price forum, I guess re tallow). Also, there is a general understanding re raw/palaeo, that the raw aspect is slightly more important than the palaeo aspect. While it's  acceptable for people to mention in passing that they consume raw dairy(as long as they personally have no issues with the stuff and don't openly advocate its use)), it's more of a faux-pas to actively recommend pemmican or other cooked guff, given that animal-fats contain huge amounts of heat-created toxins(which raw dairy , at least, doesn't have).At the least when mentioning pemmican and other cooked junk, please always make sure to mention that it is a 2nd-rate compromise food, not a health-food (or make clear that you only heat it well below the 40 degree celsius point to avoid heat-damage from cooking)- that's the main thing, as many months ago, such additional caveats were definitely not mentioned.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2009, 03:32:46 am »
Also, there is a general understanding re raw/palaeo, that the raw aspect is slightly more important than the palaeo aspectquote]

That's your personal bias, not a general understanding of all raw paleo eaters. I came from raw vegan so my bias tendency would be towards raw being more important, but my experience since then has converted me.

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 04:07:39 am »
That's your personal bias, not a general understanding of all raw paleo eaters. I came from raw vegan so my bias tendency would be towards raw being more important, but my experience since then has converted me.

I would say that both raw and animal food are of the utmost importance... just like both wings of an airplane: you can't say that its right wing is more important than the left to fly!

 ;D 
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 06:35:56 am »
Firstly, the point I made re tallow being used for making soap and candelwax is highly appropriate as it illustrates the point about how tallow(heated suet) isn't really suitable as a proper food on this forum.
Personally, I only use soaps and other personal care products that are edible or as close to it as possible. So all that tells me is that tallow might make for an excellent, healthy, nontoxic soap (which it does--and Native Americans reportedly used it as a soap as well as a food and so do some people here--that's a selling point, not a criticism). My advice is, if you can't eat your soap without getting sick, don't use it, because some of what you put on your skin absorbs into your body.

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....this is not an excuse to suggest that tallow is remotely healthy(or even acceptable, except as a dire necessity re eating at work or whatever).
Sorry, but I find that your quotes do make a certain amount of tallow and other foods that are not purely Paleo acceptable. 85% is 85%. You didn't say "85% except for tallow." I don't claim that tallow is a purely Paleo food. Like Lex, I call it a second-rate food that serves necessary purposes for some people like me and I gave the purposes. I try to be very careful about that. So, for example, if I ate raw butter I wouldn't say "raw butter is 100% Paleo and your diet isn't optimized unless it includes it." Instead I would say it's a compromise that I find it necessary and beneficial for me to make. Your mileage may vary.

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My above statement is merely an acceptance that we occasionally have to eat very unhealthy foods (and compromise our health slightly) so as to fit in with other (SMD-eating) acquaintances, not an endorsement of a partially-cooked diet.
I don't see foods as being starkly divided between very healthy and very unhealthy. I see it as more of a continuum from very unhealthy to moderately unhealthy to somewhat unhealthy, etc. I don't put modestly-heated melted suet into the "very unhealthy" category, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

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So, best we have 100% rawpalaeo as a potential aim for the forum, if not usually attainable.
Yes, I understand that and I am trying to become as raw Paleo as I can. I have found it necessary to make certain compromises right now, but I may not need to in the future.

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The alternative would be ending up with a laissez-faire approach
I agree with you that anything-goes would not be wise. That's why I've been so careful to never claim that tallow is 100% pure Paleo or right for everyone. It serves a purpose for me and some other RPDers, that's all.

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on the hot topics forum, it's not really appropriate anywhere else(well, except the weston-price forum, I guess re tallow). Also, there is a general understanding re raw/palaeo, that the raw aspect is slightly more important than the palaeo aspect.
I'll try to pay attention to that, though sometimes things come up and questions are asked in the course of conversation and it's difficult to start a new thread every time that happens without causing confusion, but since tallow and melted suet are apparently such hot topics, I'll try to be more strict with those.

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clear that you only heat it well below the 40 degree celsius point to avoid heat-damage from cooking)- that's the main thing, as many months ago, such additional caveats were definitely not mentioned.
Yes, I do mention that I don't heat it to cooking temps. I don't know celsius, so I looked that up and it comes out to 104 degrees farenheit. I heat jerky to 95, so I'm OK there even by your book, and I'm pretty sure that I heat tallow below that too, but I'll see if I can confirm that with a thermometer next time, just to be sure.

I agree with the rest of what you said. I think what happens is on forums like this one, there are so many trolls like SuperInfinity that we get overly suspicious about people's motives at times--including me. I'll try to me more specific about temps and such to allay fears. I know one of my faults is being a bit too laid back about the diet and not collecting as much data as folks like Lex do, which is a very valuable service that he provides. Thanks for your patience.

Like Raw Kyle, I also came from a vegetarian orientation years ago and would have agreed more with you then, Tyler, about which are the worst foods and which are the best. I've found that for me right now it turns out that the carnivorous approach is best--which has been quite mind-blowing for me and something I'm still trying to fully digest--so that lightly cooked foods don't harm me as much as plant foods, for whatever reason. In the midst of my enthusiasm re: the benefits of this approach, I'll try to remember that some people do better on VLC and omnivorous diets than ZC or carnivorous.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 06:00:51 pm »


That's your personal bias, not a general understanding of all raw paleo eaters. I came from raw vegan so my bias tendency would be towards raw being more important, but my experience since then has converted me.

The fact is that while all raw diets are different from each other in terms of what food-categories they allow(re primal diet or raw vegan or whatever), the main emphasis is always on the raw aspect as being the critical factor. For example, the primal diet despite being vehement about raw dairy as a quality food, is even more fanatical on the issue of cooked-food in general being unhealthy.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 06:14:55 pm by TylerDurden »
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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 06:41:01 pm »
Personally, I only use soaps and other personal care products that are edible or as close to it as possible. So all that tells me is that tallow might make for an excellent, healthy, nontoxic soap (which it does--and Native Americans reportedly used it as a soap as well as a food and so do some people here--that's a selling point, not a criticism). My advice is, if you can't eat your soap without getting sick, don't use it, because some of what you put on your skin absorbs into your body.

The analogy was apopropriate. Ingredients used to make soap and candlewax shouldn't really be used as foods. I could have used an even more effective analogy:- Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, a well-known pollutant and by-product of coal- and  tar-pits, as well as a byproduct of smoking cigarettes, are also created by heat/cooking. So, every time one eats cooked food such as tallow, containing such polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, one is smoking a little(or a lot, depending) each time.

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Sorry, but I find that your quotes do make a certain amount of tallow and other foods that are not purely Paleo acceptable. 85% is 85%. You didn't say "85% except for tallow." I don't claim that tallow is a purely Paleo food. Like Lex, I call it a second-rate food that serves necessary purposes for some people like me and I gave the purposes. I try to be very careful about that. So, for example, if I ate raw butter I wouldn't say "raw butter is 100% Paleo and your diet isn't optimized unless it includes it." Instead I would say it's a compromise that I find it necessary and beneficial for me to make. Your mileage may vary.

The 85% raw figure is a bare minimum, the agreed percentage , among most RAFers,below which there is negligible health-improvement. Even then, it's generally recommended to go higher. As far as mentioning tallow as a 2nd-rate compromise food(eg:- used for travelling etc.) that's OK, it is not OK to suggest that tallow is beneficial though(except in the hot topics or weston-price forums).

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I don't see foods as being starkly divided between very healthy and very unhealthy. I see it as more of a continuum from very unhealthy to moderately unhealthy to somewhat unhealthy, etc. I don't put modestly-heated melted suet into the "very unhealthy" category, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

I agree with you that anything-goes would not be wise. That's why I've been so careful to never claim that tallow is 100% pure Paleo or right for everyone. It serves a purpose for me and some other RPDers, that's all.

My reason for going on about this is, basically, that if we allow people to just use their own individual definitions of what is healthy/very healthy  or unhealthy/toxic, then the whole forum just loses its focus, and we might as well just have this as a general healthy diet-related forum with the former emphasis on raw or palaeo being wholly submerged/ignored by new members who are pro-raw-dairy or pro-cooked-foods like mcdonald's  or pro-grainfed meats or whatever they personally think helps them. Heck, there are even 1 or 2 current members here who actually think smoking is OK, healthwise.So, there needs to be some sort of overall concensus.

I'm certainly not suggesting any ulterior motives on your part, I know you mean well. But recall how  annoyed you got by that other, more recent  pro-raw-dairy post, because it conflicted with your own highly negative experiences re raw dairy and imagine how members like myself might react to posts, such as made in the past by various members recommending the supposed health-benefits of cooked, low-carb diets, grainfed meat or tallow(all of which I did very badly on, healthwise).

As for the issue of what is healthy or unhealthy, we will just have to agree to disagree.After all, I've found that , for me, while I suffer very badly from eating cooked fatty meats, I have no (immediately perceptible) trouble if I, instead, select a cooked vegetable dish(assuming no processed food is involved, just lightly-cooked veg).
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 08:42:04 am »
Ingredients used to make soap and candlewax shouldn't really be used as foods.
Leaving aside candles for the moment (since they introduce the added variable of inhaled smoke), are you saying that all soaps must necessarily be highly toxic? In other words, it sounds like you're saying we should never use any soaps, yes? That would explain why you might think that something that can be made into soap should never be eaten. Also, to further my understanding of what you're saying, are you still eating raw suet?

It might help if in my explaining why I personally don't find the soap argument to be convincing I explain that I have found raw suet to be one of my most beneficial foods and if I expound some more on the fact that cooked meats and animal fats have had much less negative effect on me (mind you--I'm not saying NO negative effect) than raw carbs--with grains, dairy, sugars, nightshades and acidic foods having the worst effects on me (in some cases, worse when raw than cooked, and in some vice-versa). Maybe cooked foods will have more serious negative effects on me as I eat more raw. One thing I have noticed is that some foods don't produce noticeable symptoms unless you've been off them completely for 4 days or 4 weeks or longer.

When it comes to tallow, FOR ME, the negatives of heating it don't seem to totally negate the positives of the suet. I found that eliminating grains, dairy, sugars, nightshades and tropical fruits had huge benefits for me, whereas going raw seems to have produced substantial but lesser improvements. For me, the optimal diet currently seems to be raw meat/seafood, animal (including fish) fat, and water. My guess is that raw organs would be good to add, but I am not currently able to handle them raw.

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Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, a well-known pollutant and by-product of coal- and  tar-pits, as well as a byproduct of smoking cigarettes, are also created by heat/cooking. So, every time one eats cooked food such as tallow, containing such polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, one is smoking a little(or a lot, depending) each time.
Do you have evidence that suet melted below 40 degrees celsius, over even at higher temps, contains significant quantities of that stuff? I'm gradually moving toward eating more of my suet raw anyway, but it would be good info to have to help motivate me further.

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The 85% raw figure is a bare minimum, the agreed percentage , among most RAFers,below which there is negligible health-improvement.
So up to 15% of the diet can be tallow heated to cooking temps and still be considered acceptable by this forum (if an individual can handle it, of course), yes?

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... Even then, it's generally recommended to go higher. As far as mentioning tallow as a 2nd-rate compromise food(eg:- used for travelling etc.) that's OK
Thanks. I don't recall ever claiming that tallow or pemmican was the equal of raw meat and fat. If I ever do that outside of hot topics, please do ask me to clarify.

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So, there needs to be some sort of overall concensus.
Yes, I agree.

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But recall how  annoyed you got by that other, more recent  pro-raw-dairy post, because it conflicted with your own highly negative experiences re raw dairy
I thought the other poster's characterization of my reaction was somewhat exaggerated and I was actually more put off by other things (that I won't get into to avoid starting a debate about it) than by his promotion of raw dairy. I've gotten along fine with some other people who eat and/or promote raw dairy and even pasteurized dairy at other forums--including a Paleo forum (I'm actually a big fan of Todd Moody's posts at another Paleo forum, and last I knew he was regularly eating dairy products).

So I don't even mind if someone promotes raw dairy here outside of the hot topics forum (though that is not acceptable to the forum, I know), as long as they don't act like it is equal or superior to the best RPD foods (which I don't believe I've ever done with tallow or pemmican) or behave as if raw dairy is generally accepted as Paleo. In that context I don't even mind if they argue that raw dairy is Paleo if they explain WHY they think it is and provide evidence instead of just stating absolutes as if anyone with any sense MUST accept them. If I do stuff like this I hope that people will call me on it.

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and imagine how members like myself might react to posts, such as made in the past by various members recommending the supposed health-benefits of cooked, low-carb diets, grainfed meat or tallow(all of which I did very badly on, healthwise).
Yes, I've tried to be sensitive when discussing tallow, but I guess I need to be even more sensitive than I realized.

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As for the issue of what is healthy or unhealthy, we will just have to agree to disagree.After all, I've found that , for me, while I suffer very badly from eating cooked fatty meats, I have no (immediately perceptible) trouble if I, instead, select a cooked vegetable dish(assuming no processed food is involved, just lightly-cooked veg).
Yes, I understood that your experience was different from mine and just added my own to the mix.

To return to the topic at hand, and summarize and clarify what I was trying to say: I eat more than once a day and eat some tallow heated below 40 degrees celsius because it helps me maintain and build my weight and for other personal reasons--not because I think it's necessarily Paleo or optimally healthy. I've noticed no ill effects from this (knock on wood).

Some evidence that was reported in this forum (such as the circadian rhythm thing) does suggest that general human biology MIGHT be more geared to two or more feedings a day than one, but I am by no means claiming that that has been proven, I have not studied it much, and am very open to other views on it. Plus, everyone's needs are not exactly the same, so there will be exceptions to the general rule anyway.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 08:50:35 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

carnivore

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 03:52:06 pm »
Our ability to tolerate different food can vary widely from one person to an other.

For instance, I can't tolerate well large amount of fruits an veggies. I do much better with cooked veggies than raw veggies, and I would prefer to eat lighly cooked meat/fat than fruits.
In consequence, I believe a rawpaleo diet is lowcarb with minimum fruits and veggies.

Tyler can eat large amount of fruits and veggies without troubles, but can't tolerate well even lighly cooked meat and fat. In consequence, he has an other idea on the subject : for him, a rawpaleodiet can be highcarbs (at leat occasionally), and considers even lighly cooked meat or fat (like tallow) to be unacceptable.

Tallow rendered at around 40°C is a good compromise for me and for now : I digest it more easily that raw fat, have no bad reaction, and it can be kept in the fridge for longer than raw fat. It seems to help me to recover my digestive ability and I hope that I will be able to do without it in the future. After all, pemmican requires a lot of work to do!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 04:14:13 pm by carnivore »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 04:56:12 pm »
Leaving aside candles for the moment (since they introduce the added variable of inhaled smoke), are you saying that all soaps must necessarily be highly toxic? In other words, it sounds like you're saying we should never use any soaps, yes? That would explain why you might think that something that can be made into soap should never be eaten. Also, to further my understanding of what you're saying, are you still eating raw suet?

Yes, I still eat raw suet. My point still stands re tallow. Something that is used to clean the body (and used to make candlewax)cannot be as effective as a food. They are 2 entirely different processes. Either 1 substance can be more effective as a food and therefore less effective as a cleaning substance or vice-versa. I note, for example, that many of Aajonus' more unusual  suggestions re using raw food as cleansing agents are rather less effective than standard soaps I use.

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Do you have evidence that suet melted below 40 degrees celsius, over even at higher temps, contains significant quantities of that stuff? I'm gradually moving toward eating more of my suet raw anyway, but it would be good info to have to help motivate me further.

It's a fact that even boiling creates heat-created toxins such as AGEs/PAHs. Some of the studies on the web show figures for boiled meats(astonishingly, there are still some fradulent websites claiming that boiling creates no toxins, despite such papers!). There is an increasing gradient of course with charcoal-grilled meats being the worst, but even boiled meats are unhealthy. The key, apparently, is that the body has enough capabilities to daily get rid of the tiny amounts of natural AGES produced within the body but can't handle the extra load of heat-created toxins(not just AGEs) taken in via cooked foods(well,unless they go in for a lot of regular whole-day fasting, of course). And cooked animal fats are, again and again, listed as the worst offenders in terms of the amounts of heat-created toxins resulting from cooking:-

http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf


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So up to 15% of the diet can be tallow heated to cooking temps and still be considered acceptable by this forum (if an individual can handle it, of course), yes?

I'm not really worried about the exact percentage - after all, we are all under different social pressures, and some husbands/wives may be forced to eat, say, only 30% raw, so as to not antagonise their spouse, or whatever. I'm only concerned if people mention keywords like "beneficial" "healthy" or whatever with regard to cooked foods or suggest, a la Vinny Pinto, that a partially-raw(eg:- 50/50) diet is as good as or better than 100% raw.Since you do seem to make clear that the tallow is heated below 40 degrees Celsius, and that you mainly use it for weight-gaining purposes , that's fine. I recall some other RAFer stating that he ate cooked potatoes in order to gain weight and another RVAFer who ate cooked potatoes for sport-related reasons, so I'm aware there are also  other concerns than just health.
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Re: Eating frequency
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 06:41:56 pm »
From the link "From a menu survey of hospital cafeteria items and local eating establishments, a total of 250 foods were determined to represent foods and culinary techniques typical of a multiethnic urban population."

Studying notoriously bad food makes the conclusion of the study worthless.

Best would be to study the result of a pemmican diet, but that has not been done, so we must go by the experience of those who actually do it.
AFAIK the result is always improvement in health.

 

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