'Cooked Meat Paleo' to 'Raw Meat Paleo'

[miles]

I currently eat a paleo diet with cooked meat, and am considering trying it with raw meat. I would like to know what changes people experience as a result of switching: Positive and Negative... (e.g. Changes in energy levels/ physical 'downtime' after meals & Experiences with Bacteria/Parasites)

N.B. I am only interested in the difference between CMP and RMP, and not the difference between RMP and any other diet.

Thank you.

[lex_rooker]

I suppose this question boils down to what you mean by cooked.  If you are talking rare to medium rare then there is a good chance that most people would find little significant difference.  If you are talking medium well to well done then the differences may be more obvious.

My experience also points to the fact that time plays an important role here.  Many cooked vs raw problems (and benefits) may take years to manifest themselves.  If you are looking for a magic bullet that will cure all your ills over night, and you've already taken the most important step by moving to a paleo type diet, moving from lightly or moderately cooked to completely raw may not show much return in the short term.

I personally found that lightly cooked paleo (sometimes rare but mostly medium rare) gave me about 90% of the benefits.  There have been some incremental improvements since I moved to all raw several years ago, but it has taken 3 to 4 years for these minor improvements to occur and I can't even say that they wouldn't have occurred if I had stayed with the lightly cooked protocol. 

Probably not what you wanted to hear but it is the best information that I can provide,

Lex

[miles]

I have, so far, been using mince for several reasons: Speed of cooking(microwaving), Price(generally cheaper, I guess because it packs more efficiently), and because I can get it with a lot of fat, which I can choose to leave or eat depending on how I feel, because a lot of it comes out in the microwaving anyway.

Getting mince means I have to cook it to well-done though, as far as I know. But on the issue of time, if I were to buy solid meat and simmer the outer edge/cook rare, then it wouldn't take long anyway.

Also, I am an athlete, so any improvement is important to me.

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What about parasites and bacteria? I read that these are more prevalent in grain-fed meat than grass-fed as well.

[TylerDurden]

IMO, cooked palaeolithic diets offer some health-benefits re auto-immune-diseases etc. BUT, going fully raw confers  FAR more benefits(50%+). For example, my own health-problems were adrenal-related, so that I couldn't digest properly any cooked animal food whatsoever. The result was that cooked-palaeo did  f*ck all for me, but rawpalaeo saved my life.

[Guittarman03]

I've come to the conclusion that the real demons lie in cooked fats.  Carbs are relatively unnaffected by cooking (except enzymes and nutrient value), but the basic structure remains in tact.  I have not noticed much difference in raw or cooked fruits/veggies.  The fats however not only lose enzymes and nutrients, but their molecular structure changes and can wreak havoc on the body.  This is evidence by the fact that the body will surge white blood cells (responsible for eliminating unwanted/dangerous particles in the blood stream) when eating cooked meat, but this will not happen when eating raw.

To answer your question from a practical sense, if you start eating your meat mostly raw, you can expect better and faster digestion and absorption of nutrients (b/c of the enzymes and b/c now your body is not dealing with toxic fats).  You will be able to eat a big meal, but still feel somewhat light.  This will give your body more time/resources for recovery, and will lead to faster recovery. 

As far as grainfed parasites/bacteria, I eat grainfed almost exclusively and have no problems.  Don't get your food from Wal-Mart is a good start (they get the cheapest, lowest quality bulk stuff possible), at least go somewhere where they don't give hormone and antibiotics to thier beef (like wholefoods).  Grassfed is ideal though.

You will find eating lots of raw steak (I get chuck steaks b/c lots of fat) is actually pretty convienient.  It's easy, no prep necessary, and you can carry around alot of calories with little effort.  Just 1.5 - 2 lbs of meat is enough to at least get me through a day, though I will usually prefer a little more.

[lex_rooker]

Getting mince means I have to cook it to well-done though, as far as I know.

I only eat mince and I eat it raw and have done so for almost 4 years now and have not had a problem.  I regularly eat ground meat that is meant as pet food so it is not prepared or inspected to meet health standards - still no problem.

Also, I am an athlete, so any improvement is important to me.

Raw or cooked will not be a significant defining difference in athletic performance.  The real choice is whether to include carbs or go Zero carb.  Both have pluses and minuses.  You will be able to handle high intensity efforts (intense weight lifting, windsprints, etc) where muscles must be efficient in anaerobic conditions better if you include carbs.  Zero Carb lends itself to long term energy expenditures where aerobic conditions are the norm.  It really has nothing to do with whether your food is raw or cooked.  If you want to spend a lot of time planning an optimal diet for athletic performance then you would want a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet (CKD) where you eat ZC 6 days per week and then add a good bit of carbs once per week.  This is supposed to give you the best of both worlds.  There are rules as to when you are allowed the carbs and how much.  The best source for information on this is Lyle McDonald.  He has a rather pricey book on the subject which is available on the web.  Just Google Lyle McDonald ultimate diet 2.0 and you'll find lots of information.

What about parasites and bacteria? I read that these are more prevalent in grain-fed meat than grass-fed as well.

My personal take is that today it really doesn't matter.  15-20 years ago e-coli 0157H was pretty much limited to feedlots where animals were grain finished.  Over the years the waste from these feedlots has been distributed all over as 'fertilizer' and therefore contaminated just about everything equally.  You see, grass fed animals will not provide the conditions to 'create' the acid resistant version of e-coli, but the acid resistant version of e-coli is equally happy in grass fed animals as well.  So today, grass fed animals will pick up the bad strain of e-coli from the environment.  There are several studies that show this.  The best you can do is find a meat supplier you trust and just don’t worry about it.  Many of us have been eating our meat raw for a lot of years and the most we ever get are occasional loose stools.  I only know of one person who actually became ill from eating raw meat and I think the final culture said he had salmonella – 1 out of several hundred over 3 or 4 years.  Not bad odds.

Lex

[goodsamaritan]

I agree with the cooked FATS is TOXIC issue.

You can eat a lot more RAW FATS because it is non-toxic.  You can safely increase your fat intake with raw fats.

COOKED FATS are TOXIC because everyone experiences what in our words is "UMAY" or a feeling of "STOP" when eating COOKED FATS... which never happens when you eat RAW FAT.

I experimented with cooked meat paleo diet last year when I was curious with homo optimus diet. My experiment wasn't too scientific though because I GRILLED commercially farmed PORK (not organic)... and I felt really bad after 30 days I had to stop my cooked paleo diet experiment.  It's unfair because when I do raw paleo diet I eat grass fed organic beef and wild ocean fish... which in the first place I cannot stand to really cook because cooking grass fed beef and wild ocean fish tastes awful and seems like a total waste of money.

I think that grilling introduces toxins / poisons with the smoke of the charcoal sticking to the meat.  You can see it when you are cooking.  Plus any burnt portions.  Cooking pollutes food.  Of course one form of cooking is more polluting than others.

When the raw vegan healers say MEAT is toxic to the body... they point to COOKED MEAT.  Not raw meat.

Downtime after a meal?  I feel sluggish and sleepy after a cooked meat meal.  I do not feel anything after a raw meat meal.  

Cooked meat makes me thirsty.  Raw meat hydrates me.

I'm not an athlete though, I do know that depending on the sport of the athlete you need a lot of carbs for explosive power. I've read before some heated discussion between Barry Groves and a cyclist athlete (Angelo?) in the raw paleo diet yahoo groups and Angelo says he needed a certain amount of carbs.

[PaleoPhil]

My experience has been similar to Lex's, although my small benefits seem to have come quickly, so maybe I have benefited more from raw. I'll know better after I've reached fully raw if I then experiment with all cooked meat, to be able to contrast very different levels of cooking. Going from majority-cooked ZC to mostly-raw carnivorous has had small but significant benefits so far, such as feeling a bit better and having a somewhat better functioning GI system. I find raw meats and eggs to be easier to digest than cooked.

Eliminating carbs provided the biggest benefits for me (especially gluten-grains and other grains, milk, legumes, tubers, nightshades, winter squashes and tropical fruits).

[wodgina]

I pretty much eat only mince, have done for 3 years and have never been sick.

[miles]

Downtime after a meal?  I feel sluggish and sleepy after a cooked meat meal.  I do not feel anything after a raw meat meal.  

I feel that way after eating cooked meat... That's the main reason I'm interested in raw.

IMO, cooked palaeolithic diets offer some health-benefits re auto-immune-diseases etc. BUT, going fully raw confers  FAR more benefits(50%+). For example, my own health-problems were adrenal-related, so that I couldn't digest properly any cooked animal food whatsoever. The result was that cooked-palaeo did  f*ck all for me, but rawpalaeo saved my life.

My experience has been similar to Lex's. Going from majority-cooked ZC to mostly-raw carnivorous has had small but significant benefits so far, such as feeling a bit better and having a somewhat better functioning GI system. I find raw meats and eggs to be easier to digest than cooked.

To answer your question from a practical sense, if you start eating your meat mostly raw, you can expect better and faster digestion and absorption of nutrients (b/c of the enzymes and b/c now your body is not dealing with toxic fats).  You will be able to eat a big meal, but still feel somewhat light.  This will give your body more time/resources for recovery, and will lead to faster recovery.  

More suggestions that raw meat digests faster and would mean less downtime and grogginess. It seems to me that this could make rather a large difference to me...

I only know of one person who actually became ill from eating raw meat and I think the final culture said he had salmonella – 1 out of several hundred over 3 or 4 years.  Not bad odds.

Would this be because of the type of meat he ate? Or because he was already ill and his immune system was weak? I have read that something like 60% or chicken is infected with salmonella, and 60% is infected with some other equally dangerous bacteria..

As well as Cow muscle, do you consider organs, and meat from other animals such as pigs, chickens, turkeys and fish to be as safe? (For bacteria and parasites[worms])

Or will the body be able to deal with these anyway?

I pretty much eat only mince, have done for 3 years and have never been sick.

All right. I thought mince was bad because any bacteria would be mixed throughout and meat from different sources all mixed in together, but then I suppose that only matters if you're going to cook the outside of it =) It seems like it would be kind of sickly though, compared to solid meat? Possibly it would digest even easier though? But then, that is more processing and couldn't some beneficial properties of the meat that are preserved by not cooking be lost anyway?

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[miles]

Got some Irish Beef mince in the fridge, from ASDA... I am tempted to go and try it raw. The benefits I have heard sound great and am now eager to try it out.

Issues I'm still not sure on though are 1)Parasites, 2)What meats are suitable to eat raw other than Beef Muscle (different animals e.g. Fish, Pork, Chicken, Turkey/parts of animals e.g. Organs [People seem to advocated consumption of organs, but with cooked I avoided them because of the extreme levels of fat-soluble vitamins which will build up in the body) 3)How to know if the meat is grass-fed. 4) Whether organic is worth it.

Thank you for all the replies I have been receiving so far.

[PaleoPhil]

I think wild and near-wild (pasture fed) animal fats are probably the healthiest of all foods, since brains and marrow were a dietary staple for hominids (even carrion stripped of all meat and organs would have offered brains and marrow to hominids that came upon it and could crack open the bones with stones--combine this with the brains and marrow that they got from hunted kills and kills stolen from other predator animals and you can easily imagine that they ate quite a bit). That's why so many people take fish oil and cod liver supplements--even people who call themselves vegetarians!--as fish are one of the last wild animal food sources left on earth in some abundance (though even they are quickly being decimated) and fish oils are therefore one of the few sources of wild animal fats still left and study after study has shown benefits from consuming them.

Brains are hard to come by these days, but wild and grassfed sources of fat can be had: such as grassfed marrow and suet and ground or chopped meats that contain fat and wild fatty fish and fish oil / cod liver oil supplements.

[lex_rooker]

Miles,
The human animal is pretty tough.  We evolved eating meat that was full of bacteria.  For millions of years there were no refrigerators, freezers, canning equipement, or chemicals (other than salt and there is controversy to whether we used salt at all).  In short, we hunted and killed animals for food.  We dressed them on the ground with wooden sticks and crude stone tools.  Within hours the warm meat would be swarming with bacteria.  This is the way of life for all animals in the wild.  Their food, whether plant or animal based, is not aniceptic.  Many here make and eat "high" meat, which is just meat that has been allowed to grow lots of bacteria - in otherwords, it's slowly rotting.  

I do keep the bulk of my food frozen.  I defrost and prepare about a weeks worth at a time and store it in the refrigerator.  Early in the morning I pull out the days portion and let it warm up, often for 10 hours or so, and sometimes in a hot car, until I'm ready to eat it.  By the time I get around to eating it, it is often full of bacteria as evidenced by a rather sour taste (which I actually have come to enjoy).  Most of us were initially concerened with bacteria and parasites, but after a few weeks or months we found we didn't die nor did we even become sick and so we just stopped worrying about it.

I eat organs as part of the pet food I add to my food mix.  I prefer to get a wide variety of organs and mix it with regular muscle meats than to eat individual organ meats separately.  Either way is fine as the people who eat whole organ meats are doing great as well.  My way is just my preference.   About 10% to 15% of my total meat intake is from organs.  The rest is fat and muscle.

Not sure why you are concerned with toxic vitamin overload from eating organ meats.  I know of no such case ever happening on a paleo style diet.  Usually you get to the point where you just don’t want anymore of whatever food you are eating long before vitamin toxicity sets in. As an example, you might get to the point where another bite of liver and you think you’ll vomit, but kidney, heart, spleen, muscle meats and fat all sound great.  Your body knows what’s best and will not let you overdo it unless you ignore it and force yourself to go against how you feel.

Organic is a total waste of money.  It is totally meaningless as there is no standard definition for it.  Feedlot meat is by definition “organic” if the animals ate organic grains (whatever that means).  This doesn’t make them any healthier.  

There are several grassfed meat producers here in north America and they are easily accessed on the web.  Just Google “grass fed meat” and you’ll get dozens of hits.  The UK and Europe are a different matter.  Maybe Tyler can help you there since he is in the UK.

Lex

[miles]

Ok.

I do keep the bulk of my food frozen.  I defrost and prepare about a weeks worth at a time and store it in the refrigerator.  Early in the morning I pull out the days portion and let it warm up, often for 10 hours or so, and sometimes in a hot car, until I'm ready to eat it.  By the time I get around to eating it, it is often full of bacteria as evidenced by a rather sour taste (which I actually have come to enjoy).  Most of us were initially concerened with bacteria and parasites, but after a few weeks or months we found we didn't die nor did we even become sick and so we just stopped worrying about it.

I'm getting more comfortable with this now..

However, I've also read that freezing for 48hrs should kill parasites in some meats and freezing for a month should do it in others. Is it widespread within the RPD community to freeze meat for a period before consumption? Or just for convenience because you buy on bulk?

Tapeworm is pretty serious.. There are places where it's really common, I would be interested to know what communities it is particularly prevalent in. The worm eggs that wait in cysts in animal tissue are gruesome. People have mentioned bacteria, and I'm relatively happy about that now, but I don't recall anyone commenting in response to parasites yet... Or even about Pork/Poultry/Fish.. Poultry and Pork especially, people won't even eat rare usually, unlike with beef. Perhaps Pork and Poultry are unnecessary? Fish is eaten raw in Sushi, but part of the preparation is freezing for a period to kill parasites.

There are several grassfed meat producers here in north America and they are easily accessed on the web.  Just Google “grass fed meat” and you’ll get dozens of hits.  The UK and Europe are a different matter.  Maybe Tyler can help you there since he is in the UK.

Yes, I would appreciate some info on that if possible Tyler, if you read this. I'm not sure what the equivalent to grass-fed would be in the case of poultry and pork for example... maybe it'll be best to just leave them off. Fish equivalent is 'obviously' just wild.

[Neone]

Miles, for the love of god, do NOT microwave your meat! holy smokes, if you're doing this diet for health then why would you go and zap all the 'good shit' out of your meat?
I think that if you're eating a healthy (at least mostly) carnivorous diet stuff like tapeworms probobly wouldnt do too well in your intestines since there wouldnt be much for them to eat?
Fresh is best, i would rather let my meat sit in the fridge for four weeks and eat it high than freeze it..

this is all just gut instinct, take it for what its worth.

[miles]

I think that if you're eating a healthy (at least mostly) carnivorous diet stuff like tapeworms probobly wouldnt do too well in your intestines since there wouldnt be much for them to eat?

What do tapeworms eat?

Also, Neone, what sort of meat to do eat?

____________________________________

Tonight I 'cooked' ~500g 'Irish Beef Mince' from ASDA in the oven at 100ºC for about 45mins in total... It was quite hard to eat, I spent a long time and probably managed ~3/4 of the meat, but didn't touch the liquid fat in the bottom. When I say it was hard to eat, I don't mean to chew; I 'cooked' it just enough so it was all a very pale brownish colour(it seems to transition instantly from perfect raw-red to this colour at a certain temperature, so I just got all of it to this point), but to me it tasted very raw(which was kind of the idea), except that the iron smell wasn't so strong. Suitably, I was eating it whilst watching(on tv -  duh) some UK citizens eating raw reindeer on the show 'tough guy or chicken'. It was as if my body could only just handle it though, and perhaps I would have been sick if I'd eaten any more/any faster. I did also pass some silent wind, which I am guessing was something to do with the bacteria?(it went freely too.. no bloating or discomfort like what I used to get(still would if I ate it) from eating grains/legumes).

Something else: Some(perhaps many) people here think that one should not suffer negative effects from parasites/bacteria if follow the raw-paleo diet; in that case, I would guess that animals(e.g. Cattle) would be less likely to suffer from them on their own natural diet. However(I realise there are many other cases for eating grass-fed cattle for example), in THAT particular respect, eating 'natural-fed' animals should not make a difference(if gut parasites/bacteria would not negatively affect a raw-paleo 'dieter' anyway). Hmm?

[Raw Kyle]

Hey miles, I've said this before in other threads but figured I'd put it here since it appears relevant. Every time I ever added a new raw animal flesh food to my diet I went through a period where at first it was either mildly or sometimes very revolting. By that I mean that the idea of it was scary or disgusting, I was afraid it might make me sick, and the taste and texture did not appeal to me. I would either force a bunch down or eat until I felt I couldn't anymore like you did. This always gave way to it becoming neutral, neither desirable nor disgusting. It because mechanical, chewing just to get it down with no pleasure. Then slowly it because pleasurable to eat. It happened fastest with muscle meat as this is closest to stuff I was used to (cooked meat, sashimi, things "normal" people eat these days) and slowest with organs. In fact organs are still a bit bad tasting to me, maybe bad is the wrong word, but strong in a way I don't particularly like. Fat is neutral to tasty for me now, depending on the particular variances of the fat I'm eating that day.

[phatdave]

Ive noticed one massive problem with the way i got about things. Hunger. You have to be really hungry, and out of the cycle of usual eating. I really find having food whenever i want not quite right. Wait a while, and its funny how real hunger resets things.

Anyways, thats with me anyway.

(ex. having a fridge full of raw meat whenever you are the slightest bit hungry didnt work for me, but when i worked for it - amazing!! )

[TylerDurden]

Re freezing meats:- It's not too common as Aajonus recommends against freezing and the vast majority of RPDers don't give a damn about the parasite issue. That said, some of us have noticed that raw animal fats are less affected by freezing than lean meats so I, for example, store suet and marrow in the freezer, while storing the usual muscle-meatsand other organs in the fridge. That is just for convenience and space. Hardly any RPDers freeze in order to kill parasites as it's too much of a hassle to wait 14 days, and by the time they've done the raw diet for any reasonable length of time, they start realising that the parasite-issues touted by Sally Fallon and co are just nonsense.

[Josh]

I don't recommend starting with raw mince...I found it really hard to take. It sat in my stomach and caused nausea.

I'm starting to be able to eat a bit now, after eating other things for a while.

How about a bit of steak?

[TylerDurden]

I don't recommend starting with raw mince...I found it really hard to take. It sat in my stomach and caused nausea.

I'm starting to be able to eat a bit now, after eating other things for a while.

How about a bit of steak?

The problem with minced/ground steak is that it's easily oxidised once exposed to air. Cooking does harm via lipid oxidation so I can't imagine that ground meat is ideal.

I agree re ground meat being more difficult to digest. When I first started rawpalaeo, i found, annoyingly, that I found the taste of ground meat to be less worse, but that it digested less well than raw non-ground meats or raw seafood.

[miles]

I don't recommend starting with raw mince...I found it really hard to take. It sat in my stomach and caused nausea.

I'm starting to be able to eat a bit now, after eating other things for a while.

How about a bit of steak?

I went and got some 'Beef Braising Steak' and some 'New Zealand Lamb's Liver'.

[William]

I don't see how oxidation could be the problem, as jerky must be the most oxidised for of meat, and almost nobody has a problem with it. I supect its that butchers do when they grind/mince beef. Additives?

[Josh]

I'd say the indigestibility is all the gristle and random parts. Oxidation is more a long term issue eg faster aging, no?

[miles]

I just spent about 1hr eating ~0.1kg(~0.22lb?) of raw 'Beef Braising Steak', I would usually eat ~0.5kg cooked meat in a 'sitting'. It made my throat and fingers quite 'dry', something to do with the acid of the meat affecting the oils of the throat and skin?

I have never eaten something so bland and tasteless, I don't understand it. Probably the second most bland thing I've eaten to that has been lentils(I don't eat them now ofc).

Why does it taste so bland? Furthermore, how can it ever become tasteful? I would expect raw meat to taste powerful... What's going on? If it was good I would expect it to taste strong... even if at first it would be hard to handle? I would expect organs to taste stronger, because they were considered 'delicacies' and eaten raw by tat the 'kill-site', before bringing the carcass back to the camp; but I wouldn't expect the muscle-meat to be so bland...