Author Topic: My merge with Raw Paleo  (Read 39197 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2009, 07:27:16 am »
Thanks for the input, Cthulhu. I think we covered almonds/nuts pretty thoroughly and I don't want to beat it to death, so I'll call it a wrap if you don't mind.

Re: exercising on ZC, I believe those who say they've had problems with it--and Lance Armstrong is an example of someone who performs very well on an extremely high carb diet, perhaps because he burns so many calories so fast (buyer beware: I don't know what long-term effects he might get from eating so many refined, processed modern foods, and he did already get cancer, so I'm not recommending his approach, just acknowledging the performance results). For whatever reason, my own ability and desire to exercise has actually been going up on raw carnivore, so I guess I lucked out. I'm certainly not knocking it. :D And I don't notice any shorter recovery time. Actually, my muscles don't seem to stay sore as long as they used to.

For any interested, I asked Charles about his recovery and performance on ZC and he gave a very different picture than what Tyler perceived (and I had perceived basically the same picture that Tyler had, but he gave a somewhat complex explanation about what he really meant that I think I understand--if you want more details on Charles' view, please ask him, as I don't want to get into relaying messages between people and trying to represent other's views, neither of which ever works well for me).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2009, 10:47:30 am »
Thanks for the input, Cthulhu. I think we covered almonds/nuts pretty thoroughly and I don't want to beat it to death, so I'll call it a wrap if you don't mind.

Re: exercising on ZC, I believe those who say they've had problems with it--and Lance Armstrong is an example of someone who performs very well on an extremely high carb diet, perhaps because he burns so many calories so fast (buyer beware: I don't know what long-term effects he might get from eating so many refined, processed modern foods, and he did already get cancer, so I'm not recommending his approach, just acknowledging the performance results). For whatever reason, my own ability and desire to exercise has actually been going up on raw carnivore, so I guess I lucked out. I'm certainly not knocking it. :D And I don't notice any shorter recovery time. Actually, my muscles don't seem to stay sore as long as they used to.

For any interested, I asked Charles about his recovery and performance on ZC and he gave a very different picture than what Tyler perceived (and I had perceived basically the same picture that Tyler had, but he gave a somewhat complex explanation about what he really meant that I think I understand--if you want more details on Charles' view, please ask him, as I don't want to get into relaying messages between people and trying to represent other's views, neither of which ever works well for me).


I agree, but, like you already said, Lance Armstrong's diet is high in processed carbohydrates, not healthy carbohydrates. You can't even begin to compare gatorade to wild, raw honey. Scientists still have not yet discovered all of the nutrients in bee products. Also, keep in mind that insulin resistance doesn't just happen out of the blue. People become insulin resistant because of the damage they have done to their pancreas by eating highly refined carbohydrates that are hard to digest and because they do not exercise much. If you are truly active, like our paleo ancestors were, then insulin sensitivity is dramatically increased, therefore your body can handle carbohydrates much better. My muscles don't stay sore much longer than they used to, although, on my very hard powerlifting days, I look forward to being a little sore because it's usually a sign that shows me I have exercised hard enough and did the exercise right. But I don't get sore like I used to, mostly because of raw meat/fat, not so much my carbohydrate intake. I am not sure what Tylers  level of fitness is. He may be pretty active, but I don't know if he is a bodybuilder or powerlifter. This is a different class of fitness. If he is a powerlifter and claims to be able to bench or deadlift an extreme amount of weight on a zero carb diet, then I do not know how that would be scientifically possible since extreme athletes REQUIRE insulin spikes, otherwise their body would be more prone to catabolism and they would lose msucle tissue, along with strength, thus defeating their overall fitness goals. If someone can remain active on a very low carbohydrate diet and it works for them, then great. But it's a time tested fact that extreme athletes require plenty of carbohydrates, otherwise it would be common to see a zero carb dieter deadlift 1000 pounds easily.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 12:46:41 pm by Cthulhu »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2009, 11:29:42 am »
Thanks for the info. I'm not an extreme exerciser like Lance Armstrong or an extreme lifter/body-builder, so if a (near) raw carnivore diet only hinders extreme levels of performance, then that's fine with me. I'll defer to your knowledge when it comes to those things, and if extreme athletes ever asked me for advice, I would refer them to more knowledgeable people like you.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 11:38:46 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2009, 01:10:01 pm »
Hey Cthulhu, I liked your post. I workout 5x a week about 2+ hours each(bjj & thai) workout & I do 3 days of lifting (5-3-1 method). If I don't eat a banana in between workouts or after. My muscles cramp up. I carb cycle as well. Glad to know I'm not the only one in this forum who's down with the PWO insulin spike lol.

I experience the same thing as well. When I wake up in the morning and eat breakfast, I have to eat enough healthy carbohydrates or else my lifts in the gym will suffer. It's just a simple fact that glycogen is a muscles main fuel source, not protein or fat. It is the most basic, readily form of energy and that is what athletes need. In fact, trying to build a good amount of muscle is self-defeating in the long run without some foundation of energy coming from carbohydrates because if you're not spiking your insulin after working out hard, your body will REMAIN in a catabolic state where muscle tissue will be consumed for energy, not glycogen. At this point, it would be a waste of time lifting weights and/or trying to build muscle. You see, insulin is like a gun. It can be used for good things or bad things. It is not an "evil" hormone. Insulin is a very powerful tool to help athletes reach their fitness goals - it just gets absued a lot by the average SADer who is not active and eats the wrong kinds of carbs. One thing some of us lifters do who want to cycle our carbs is eat five days very low carb (under 30 grams a day) and on the last two days of the week consume a high amount of carbs (to refill depleated glycogen stores). You'd have to do two or three weeks (from what I remember) of very low carb dieting (under 30 grams a day) so that your body is well adapted to burning fat for fuel, then that's when you do the carb cycling with 5 low carb days and 2 high carb days. I often recommend this to the people I train with, including the newbie natural bodybuilders/powerlifters. The diet is called "The Anabolic Diet", I believe. Most cooked food eaters do it, but all you have to do is adjust it for your raw paleo lifestyle. This is a great alternative to the more carb sensitive crowed and you will see your lifts go through the roof. In fact, I might go back to this way of eating for a little while because it has been very good to me. Nevertheless, the truth is carbohydrates, in the natural form of fruit and honey, is healthy and essential to most athletes.

Cthulhu
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 01:23:48 pm by Cthulhu »

Offline DeadRamones

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2009, 02:38:08 pm »
Yea I'm familiar with The Anabolic Diet. Read about it on T-mag. Which is a good site, if you can get past some of the brain wash Biotest fan boys.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2009, 06:19:59 pm »
  But I don't get sore like I used to, mostly because of raw meat/fat, not so much my carbohydrate intake. I am not sure what Tylers  level of fitness is. He may be pretty active, but I don't know if he is a bodybuilder or powerlifter. This is a different class of fitness. If he is a powerlifter and claims to be able to bench or deadlift an extreme amount of weight on a zero carb diet, then I do not know how that would be scientifically possible since extreme athletes REQUIRE insulin spikes, otherwise their body would be more prone to catabolism and they would lose msucle tissue, along with strength, thus defeating their overall fitness goals. If someone can remain active on a very low carbohydrate diet and it works for them, then great. But it's a time tested fact that extreme athletes require plenty of carbohydrates, otherwise it would be common to see a zero carb dieter deadlift 1000 pounds easily.

Actually, Paleophil was talking about Charles of zerocarbage.com fame. I am one of those who had to quit zero-carb for health-reasons(and because I couldn't lift weights or do sports to any genuine extent while avoiding absolutely all carbs). Re PP's mention of me:-I think (?) that's to do with when I mentioned something a while back re Charles having stated that he took longer to recover from marathons as a result of going for a (cooked)ZC diet, - I'd thought that it was Lex who'd stated this, though, not PP. It was definitely a ZCer.
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2009, 01:42:26 am »
".....if you can get past some of the brain wash Biotest fan boys."


That's one reason why I left the website.

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2009, 01:53:52 am »
Actually, Paleophil was talking about Charles of zerocarbage.com fame. I am one of those who had to quit zero-carb for health-reasons(and because I couldn't lift weights or do sports to any genuine extent while avoiding absolutely all carbs). Re PP's mention of me:-I think (?) that's to do with when I mentioned something a while back re Charles having stated that he took longer to recover from marathons as a result of going for a (cooked)ZC diet, - I'd thought that it was Lex who'd stated this, though, not PP. It was definitely a ZCer.


Ahh, okay. I got a little mixed up here with names, since I am still somewhat new to the forum. That explains it. How much do you lift every week?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2009, 04:58:56 pm »

Ahh, okay. I got a little mixed up here with names, since I am still somewhat new to the forum. That explains it. How much do you lift every week?

Oh, I don't do weightlifting any more(except for the mass of food I bring home from farmers' markets which weigh a ton!). I prefer doing bodyweight training as I'm more convinced that it leads to more functional strength(I tend to make the pressups etc. more difficult by doing them from a  chair etc.)

I used to do weightlifting  two or three times a week, up to a couple of years ago, something like seven or so different types of exercises, 3 sets at a time. My one problem always was that, given my body build, squats were incredibly  easy and my legs became super-powerful, but the rest of my body took much more effort to improve.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2009, 06:00:29 am »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/my-merge-with-raw-paleo/msg18226/#msg18226
In fact, trying to build a good amount of muscle is self-defeating in the long run without some foundation of energy coming from carbohydrates
I have what I hope is a simple solution for everyone. If you don't benefit from a raw "ZC" or carnivorous diet, don't eat it. I do benefit, better so far than on anything I've tried (inclusing such benefits as increased strength and energy, some substantial straightening of my spine in less than 2 months, marvelous feelings of well being after each meal, etc.--and believe me, I tried every other level of carbs from very low to very high), so I eat it. I don't expect many people to emulate what Lex Rooker and I do. To each their own and everyone wins.

Re: Charles, if anyone wants to know why he thinks he performs better overall athletically on ZC than some carbs you can find his forum at http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com. I'd rather not get in the middle of a debate between other people. Just thought people should know that he gives a different perspective on it than the impression I got from Tyler's recollection. I'm not into extreme/serious athletics anyway, so it's irrelevant to my needs.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline unthink

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2009, 04:57:43 pm »
How many athletes has really tested ZC to the end?  I would expect no normal athlete would, because they notice how detrimental it is to them, in the beginning. And how many would go for it, if not having a real good reason to do it. The only good study a have seen is the one on charles forum, where they concluded that, there were no bigg difference, apart from sprinting capabilities. And think this was only up to 4 or was it 8 weeks..  

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2009, 10:01:28 pm »
How many athletes has really tested ZC to the end?  I would expect no normal athlete would, because they notice how detrimental it is to them, in the beginning. And how many would go for it, if not having a real good reason to do it. The only good study a have seen is the one on charles forum, where they concluded that, there were no bigg difference, apart from sprinting capabilities. And think this was only up to 4 or was it 8 weeks.. 

I think there are 2 Italian athletes(bikers) who tried raw ZC long-term and found it wanting re performance.
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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2009, 11:25:39 pm »
How many athletes has really tested ZC to the end?  I would expect no normal athlete would, because they notice how detrimental it is to them, in the beginning. And how many would go for it, if not having a real good reason to do it. The only good study a have seen is the one on charles forum, where they concluded that, there were no bigg difference, apart from sprinting capabilities. And think this was only up to 4 or was it 8 weeks..  


It looks like they mostly do it wrong, in that they increase food to match physical exertion, while Phinney has shown that this is a mistake, and it is /b/fat[/b] that must be increased, while supplementing with sodium and postassium, but never meat. If I read it right.
The confusion comes from the account of Arctic travellers with Inuit, where they write first accurately that they carried mostly fat on their travels, but later they write "meat".
 See: Phinney, S. “Ketogenic diets and physical performance”, Nutrition & Metabolism, 2004, 1:2. on the internet here:
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2009, 10:22:49 am »
Stephen D Phinney does suggest "one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics." ["Ketogenic diets and physical performance," Nutrition & Metabolism 2004, http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2]

Dr. Harris of PaNu claims that carbs are not essential for athletes, but he does acknowledge that "a moderate carb load" may be necessary for lengthy aerobic activity, which is a view similar to that of Loren Cordain's. [Harris, Kurt G. "There are no essential carbohydrates, even for athletes," Monday, May 18, 2009 at 4:38PM, http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/month/may-2009]

The divergence on anaerobic vs. aerobic between these two is interesting. Then there's the mammoth hunters. I don't have the article at hand, but I read somewhere (and my sister recalls it too) that the bones of Stone Age mammoth hunters were tested and they were found to have the same composition as wolves. In other words, carnivorous and essentially ZC. Not surprising, given the massive amount of meat and fat that mammoths provided them. Hunting mammoths and carting their massive flesh home and the massive bones that they used to build their homes out of (I've seen modern men carrying just the tusks and it took two men to carry a single mammoth tusk) seems like it would require a lot of strength and effort. That would seem to require enough athletic performance to satisfy most people today, wouldn't it?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 03:14:37 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2009, 04:30:12 pm »
The bone-analysis theory though seems to be in a lot of trouble. For example, there was that study a few years back which tried to claim that Neanderthals ate an all-meat diet consisting of mostly meat from large wild game such as  mammoths. The study was subsequently found to be totally flawed with Neanderthals shown as having eaten a wide variety of plant foods as well as eating a variety of wild game not just the large mammals.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2009, 06:13:21 am »
Well I'm open to whatever works for me, so if I ever reach a point where I can't do some athletic activity without carbs, I'll try adding them and see if I can handle them without negative effects.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline DeadRamones

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2009, 12:22:50 pm »
My 1st ever No carb day. I thought I would be tired & cranky but I feel normal. Hopefully I can keep it up tomorrow. I think I'll try it for a week & see if I can cope with it.

I didn't eat much at all today though
2oz buffalo jerky
1lb ground beef w/ 1 egg
4 oz cheese(didn't bring lunch with me to work because I thought I wouldn't be hungry.) Next time I'll make more jerky & bring it with me just in case.

I haven't worked out in a month because I've been working nights & my sleep pattern is all messed up. So since I'm not training I figured I should try to stick with ZC/VLC. Might be easier to transition that way. I think I'll keep my Carbs low at 30g max. Except for training days in which I'll ingest a high carb meal after training to help with recovery.

Offline DeadRamones

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2009, 01:41:37 pm »
Another ZC day for me.This time I made 1lb of homemade fatty jerky(let it dry for one hour)to work. I left the fat in it cause I know it would be gone in 2days. Thank god I had it at hand. I started getting some carb cravings. All in all my energy seems normal. I think it's because I carbed cycle in the past. So that helps. Next week I'll start working out again & see how it effects my workouts.

-3/4 lb fatty beef jerky
-half lb raw ground beef w 1 raw egg
-6 oz of raw cheese(yes I know it's not paleo, but I have alot left over & it's hard for me to just let it go to waste

I pretty much just picked all day when I got cravings. Hopefully the cravings will go away & I can stick to 1-3meals a day.

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2009, 11:43:02 pm »
It won't work, as you are doing low fat. Cravings will strike.

Offline DeadRamones

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2009, 09:06:37 pm »
 Is there a certain percentage I should follow? I know cravings will strike, that's why I made some jerky out of ground instead of lean cuts. Very rarely is 75% ground available by me. Bone in beef shanks(marrow included) are pretty much my staple. I always ask butcher for the fatty pieces. Even before I decided to go VLC. Raw cheese & egg are about 50:50 (protein:fat).  Maybe I am getting around 50:50 in my overall diet right now. Would you suggest snacking on some fat instead of the jerky?

« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 09:34:04 pm by DeadRamones »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2009, 03:01:19 am »
50% is too much protein on a ZC diet. I've read that in the absence of carbs, protein starvation can occur when you exceed 40% protein. I think lean ground beef tends to be 40% protein, so even that is too lean.

Instead of using ground beef to make fatty jerky, I make standard lean jerky, but dip the jerky into fat (tallow in my case), or eat a gob of fat and then a piece of jerky, or eat several gobs of fat followed by a bunch of jerky.

Since raw is advocated here, I'm trying to move toward eating more of my fat, like suet, raw. One thing I've tried recently that I like is melting some suet in a pan at as low a temp as I can, and then dribbling that fat onto a portion of ground grassfed beef. It tastes great, kind of like a meat donut. As a matter of fact, it probably tastes TOO good and too much like a donut, because things that taste like that tend to be bad for us--which suggests to me that raw is best.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:06:39 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline DeadRamones

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2009, 03:14:33 pm »
William & PaleoPhil, Thanks for the heads up. At the next visit I will ask my butcher for some pure fat. I heard it's free.  I'll take a day or two to weigh & calculate calories of my food, so I can make a better judgment in the future.

Since the temp by me is getting colder. Leaving meat out at room temp still taste like it came out the fridge.  I bring a pot of water to a rolling boil, turn off heat, put meat inside the strainer & let it sit above the water, and let it steam for about 10seconds. It really warms it up & makes it easier to eat. I know it's the most beneficial to eat straight up raw, but it's to damn cold & makes me crave cook food to much. The marrow this way is freaking delicious, very sweet was like a dessert.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2009, 04:40:46 pm »
I'm not convinced that the 40% protein figure is correct. There've been times when, inadvertently, I had only access to lean, ground beef (while eating no carbfor weeks at a time, not on an official zc trial as such) and similiar lean organs and I didn't have rabbit--starvation issues.

Re adapting to cold:- Most RVAFers report finding that each year or so, their circulation etc. improves as a result of diet  so that they continually improve their resistance to cold. If you want something hot that isn't really a breaking of this diet, why not just make some hot water and drink it instead of tea, cooked foods, coffee and the like.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2009, 11:15:47 pm »
I'm not convinced that the 40% protein figure is correct. There've been times when, inadvertently, I had only access to lean, ground beef (while eating no carbfor weeks at a time, not on an official zc trial as such) and similiar lean organs and I didn't have rabbit--starvation issues.
Excellent point, Tyler. I've had the same experience over short periods when I ran out of supplementary fat. I suspect that either a margin of safety is built into the 40% figure or it takes a long time for nonlethal suboptimal protein/fat ratios like that to have negative consequences (which markers like Lex's high a1c level may forecast). There are probably individual variables too, like how much body fat is available to supplement the dietary fat. On the other hand, while 40% protein may not have lethal consequences, I think it is much higher than optimal. Lex, Wartman, Phinney and others have reported benefits from much higher levels and I am seeing the figures gravitate around the 80% fat figure (with a range of around 75 - 85%) for optimal ZC/carnivore results once keto adaptation has occurred.

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Re adapting to cold:- Most RVAFers report finding that each year or so, their circulation etc. improves as a result of diet  so that they continually improve their resistance to cold. If you want something hot that isn't really a breaking of this diet, why not just make some hot water and drink it instead of tea, cooked foods, coffee and the like.
Another excellent point. I didn't think that tea had any negative effects on me, but when I stopped drinking any other beverages other than water and unsweetened hot and cold tea I noticed that the larger quantities of tea, especially cold tea for some reason, gave me heartburn/reflux. Whereas large quantities of water, raw meat and suet do not have any noticeable negative effects on me. So I think it is good to at least put each element in your diet to the test at some point, by eliminating it and reintroducing it. For me, even seemingly benign things like tea turned out to have negative effects when consumed in significant quantities.

One must of course also be careful to get all the essential nutrients, but even here the standard assumptions can be misleading. For example, the levels of potassium (K) in raw meats are rather low when compared to certain plants, yet based on my symptoms and required supplement levels to resolve symptoms, my body absorbed higher levels of K from raw meats than from the nutrient-rich plants. So in this area I found Lex's experience with a raw meat/fat diet to be a more reliable indicator of actual nutrient absorption than the statistical data on the nutrient composition of various foods. After all, what matters when it comes to nutrients is what we actually absorb, not just what is in the food.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: My merge with Raw Paleo
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2009, 03:35:40 am »
Excellent point, Tyler. I've had the same experience over short periods when I ran out of supplementary fat. I suspect that either a margin of safety is built into the 40% figure or it takes a long time for nonlethal suboptimal protein/fat ratios like that to have negative consequences (which markers like Lex's high a1c level may forecast). There are probably individual variables too, like how much body fat is available to supplement the dietary fat. On the other hand, while 40% protein may not have lethal consequences, I think it is much higher than optimal. Lex, Wartman, Phinney and others have reported benefits from much higher levels and I am seeing the figures gravitate around the 80% fat figure (with a range of around 75 - 85%) for optimal ZC/carnivore results once keto adaptation has occurred.

I don't buy that. For example, Lex has mentioned weight-gaining problems when fat-intake is around 80% of calories or above. And then there's the obvious problem that , in Palaeo times, fat-intake was inevitably much lower, given the lack of grainfed meats etc. So, a "healthy" fat-intake should be much, much lower, even on ZC.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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