Different fat

[van]

I tend to disagree from experience.  First raw wheat germ, eaten years ago, goes rancid in the fridge in a week.  This was from a wheat germ that was milled, shipped and placed in a health food stores fridge within two days.  One week later, when the new batch would come in, you could sample the one week old versus the newly milled germ.  HUGE difference.  The week old left a burning sensation in the back of the mouth.  The other is a similar experience ordering flax oil directly from Barleans, shipped the day after they cold pressed their flax into oil.  Put it in the fridge, not freezer, and within weeks it has turned.  IN the freezer it keeps much longer.  Same experience with fish oils.   The common denominator here is processing; crushing open natures protective cell barrier, allowing oxygen to get to the oils.  Nothing burns the back of my throat more than Blue Ice cold liver oil.  Can't help but be suspect that oxygen is also involved during the fermentation process, like when they put the livers in the barrel, entrapping air etc.... No other ferments as in saurkraut has this effect.

[Michael]

My only concern is that I believe there is a significant amount of oxidation that occurs when processing and then heating.

I agree, van, that this is a very valid concern!  I don't eat ground meat either for the same reasons but, strangely, I hadn't considered this aspect regarding processing of suet.  I need to think about this as I'm effectively grinding all of my suet in bulk for my meals for 5 days at a time!  The least I should do is freshly grind for every meal as I had always considered in the past when grinding meat, flour etc.  Obviously, from an oxidation perspective, best not to do it at all!

Nothing burns the back of my throat more than Blue Ice cold liver oil.  Can't help but be suspect that oxygen is also involved during the fermentation process, like when they put the livers in the barrel, entrapping air etc.... No other ferments as in saurkraut has this effect.

Yes, Blue Ice burns the back of my throat too but I've still been taking it regularly.

I wonder which is the most detrimental to health - not having the particular nutrients or exposing ourselves to potentially oxidised fats?

...but the "butter oil" derived from further refinement is not solid at room temp like a saturated fat should be. Hmm.

When I've purchased Green Pastures butter oil in the past it was solid at room temperature.  I've never made my own.  Which butter oil are you referring to livingthelife?

[William]

I agree, van, that this is a very valid concern!  I don't eat ground meat either for the same reasons but, strangely, I hadn't considered this aspect regarding processing of suet.  I need to think about this as I'm effectively grinding all of my suet in bulk for my meals for 5 days at a time!  The least I should do is freshly grind for every meal as I had always considered in the past when grinding meat, flour etc.  Obviously, from an oxidation perspective, best not to do it at all!

Fat this is bad for us is called rancid, not oxidized, we can smell or taste it and nobody in their right mind will eat it. Still, we are concerned about proper nutrition, so oxidized fat should not be eaten - so how do we know that it is oxidized?

It looks like fat has traditionally been used to prevent oxidation or spoiling of food, always when the water has been driven out of it.

Yes, Blue Ice burns the back of my throat too but I've still been taking it regularly.

I wonder which is the most detrimental to health - not having the particular nutrients or exposing ourselves to potentially oxidised fats?

The "oxidized" concern is starting to look like a red herring, when we should IMHO be concerned about purity of fat.
Pure fat is so important - it's an essential nutrient after all - that we are designed so that we can smell and taste the wrongness easily.

Since we get all but one essential nutrient from proteins, it makes sense to take a close look at the other one, namely fat, but I have not yet seen any credible scientific study of what to avoid.
 

[van]

I haven't either, so I tend to go with what tastes right to me.  start ignoring that and there's not much left to trust.

[Michael]

Fat this is bad for us is called rancid, not oxidized, we can smell or taste it and nobody in their right mind will eat it.

I agree that rancid fat is best avoided William but, to be honest, I thought fat was rancid because it had become oxidised?!  So, I've just googled it.  According to wiki, there are 3 forms of rancidification.  One of these is, indeed, oxidisation or as they put it :

Oxidative rancidity occurs when the double bonds of an unsaturated fatty acid react chemically with oxygen

The others are hydrolytic and microbial.

What did you mean by purity of fat?

[livingthelife]

When I've purchased Green Pastures butter oil in the past it was solid at room temperature.  I've never made my own.  Which butter oil are you referring to livingthelife?

The ghee I buy often has a golden liquid on top of the jar at room temp, sometimes quite a bit of the jar is liquid. It's grassfed organic ghee made by an Indian man according to Ayurvedic principles... Price wrote about using "butter oil" and didn't mention having to warm it when he administered it with cod liver oil.

The "cheapy" ghee I've seen in stores is much whiter and very solid.

I've just googled around and found no explanation for the liquid. I'm stumped.

[Michael]

That's interesting.  Perhaps it's related to the production temperature or fatty acid profile/nutritive value (ie grass or grain fed).  Certainly, the GP butter oil was deep yellow and very solid.  I don't recall it ever becoming liquid in form.  It was delicious although hideously expensive!  I may experiment making my own butter oil from the raw butter I buy for my partner to help determine any differences in state.  I don't consume butter myself anymore but your ghee sounds like a good source.

[livingthelife]

I was thinking now that it may be the monounsaturated fat that separates and remains liquid. Butter is pretty high in mono fat. Mono is a very healing fat, which is why olive oil gets such a good reputation, so that would explain its popularity with Price as well.

[William]

What did you mean by purity of fat?

Not tainted/polluted or whatever.

I've dried fat for 4 days at 95F, it still tasted good, so I must have super special stuff that doesn't oxidize.

[alphagruis]

If the fat doesn't oxidize and taste more or less bitter it means that it is essentially saturated fat i.e. with very little PUFA's. Saturated fatty acid molecules are quite stable with respect to light, oxidation and even temperatures up to 200 °C.

[TylerDurden]

I tend to disagree from experience.  First raw wheat germ, eaten years ago, goes rancid in the fridge in a week.  This was from a wheat germ that was milled, shipped and placed in a health food stores fridge within two days.  One week later, when the new batch would come in, you could sample the one week old versus the newly milled germ.  HUGE difference.  The week old left a burning sensation in the back of the mouth.  The other is a similar experience ordering flax oil directly from Barleans, shipped the day after they cold pressed their flax into oil.  Put it in the fridge, not freezer, and within weeks it has turned.  IN the freezer it keeps much longer.  Same experience with fish oils.   The common denominator here is processing; crushing open natures protective cell barrier, allowing oxygen to get to the oils.  Nothing burns the back of my throat more than Blue Ice cold liver oil.  Can't help but be suspect that oxygen is also involved during the fermentation process, like when they put the livers in the barrel, entrapping air etc.... No other ferments as in saurkraut has this effect.

While Blue Ice product does burn my throat that does not necessarily mean that it is oxidised.

[William]

If the fat doesn't oxidize and taste more or less bitter it means that it is essentially saturated fat i.e. with very little PUFA's. Saturated fatty acid molecules are quite stable with respect to light, oxidation and even temperatures up to 200 °C.

Eureka! So beef fat rendered at 170°F to 220°F (77°C-104°C) should be safe if pure. My guess is that the problems reported with tallow are caused by insufficient filtering. I know that I react badly to the solids (cracklings/scruncheons), and have noticed that there is a white sediment when I re-heat the tallow.
Maybe this sediment is why Ray Audette said to heat tallow twice?

The EFAs we need are supposed to be in cell walls, and should not be heated so assuming we get all we need from dried meat, the lack of them in tallow does not matter.

The burning sensation from Blue Ice is why I will not use the stuff.

[Michael]

The burning sensation from Blue Ice is why I will not use the stuff.

While Blue Ice product does burn my throat that does not necessarily mean that it is oxidised.

Has anybody ever queried this with Dave from Green Pastures or enquired further regarding his processing methods?  He's never been particularly friendly or forthcoming in my dealings with him in the past so I don't feel inclined to try myself! 

Eureka! So beef fat rendered at 170°F to 220°F (77°C-104°C) should be safe if pure.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that William.  Perhaps fine from an oxidation perspective if the fat used is, indeed, low in PUFA's but what about all of the other issues with cooked fats?!

I checked NutritionData for raw suet details and it seemed low in PUFAs compared with saturated fats.  It would be nice to have data specific to grass-fed suet which, I'm sure, would greatly differ from the NutritionData grain-fed suet information - allegedly containing significant amounts of K2, Vit A etc.  After much internet searching I'm no further forward on that though.  Does anybody have links to where such data might be found?

[William]

I suggest that we keep in mind that we live in a low-fat world, and if there is not anything wrong to be discovered about cooked fat, it will be created.
Note the stuff that TD has found attempting to demonize cooked fat, for example.

I haven't found any credible reason not to eat it, as it is not a source of minerals, enzymes, vitamins or proteins. It is just a source of fat.

Self-criticism could be in order, after all the anti-fat propaganda isn't done because it doesn't work - it has obviously had an effect on most people, possibly including some here.

Back on topic, paleolithic campsites commonly had cracked skulls, and recently gov't.s have practically banned brain consumption, doubtless fearing that it would do our minds some good. So what is different about brain fat?

[MrBBQ]

I'm glad that this thread has evolved to such an extent while I've been in absentia...

Thanks for doing the productive experimentation Michael, which is really appreciated. My best results have always begun with the hand mincer.

I've spoken to Dave @ Green Pasture before and he informed me that due to the preservative/lactic acids in the fermented CLO, they could not even get a lipid peroxide reading after the bottle was left open outside the fridge for a long period. Ultimately, I suppose it's just like consuming "high" meats, which must somehow have microbially-preserved elements including the fragile/volatile fatty acids.

Does anyone here consume small quantities of plant-based PUFAs (hemp, flax, borage, evening primrose, blackcurrant seed)?

Also, I've often made my own ghee in an earthenware pot with either curry leaves or green rooibos added to minimise oxidation (that's traditionally what was done). Naturally, one can use hemp/cannabis leaf to great effect. Also, it's said that fat-dissolved herbs (like in these ghee preparations) cross the cell membrane better, although I couldn't cite any studies or anything.

I would love to make "raw" ghee from grass-fed butter without a centrifuge like GP uses, if anyone has the secret! I'm off non-raw ghee for the meantime because I can secure nice animal fats.

I consume 2ml of fermented CLO per day - the tingle is from the lactic acid (or other organic acids) content. Does anyone take krill oil?

Also, does anyone consume that AFA (blue-green algae)?

So is the consensus to keep fat in as large chunks as possible in the fridge to minimise exposed surface area? Currently, I'm mincing all of my fat for quick access (consumed within a week or so).

Also, one thing that's rarely mentioned is oxysterols (oxidised cholesterol)...These must be a major accumulation in long-stored non-raw pemmican or ghee...Anyone done much research into oxysterols?

[William]

Also, one thing that's rarely mentioned is oxysterols (oxidised cholesterol)...These must be a major accumulation in long-stored non-raw pemmican or ghee...Anyone done much research into oxysterols?

Easily done, try scroogle: "consumption of oxysterols or "oxidized cholesterols" are now emerging as the underlying drivers in cardiovascular disease."
Which is more nonsense from the low fat loonies.

Cardiovascular disease became a problem when people began to eat low fat, before that they gobbled cooked fat with impunity. Demonizing cooked fat is not so easy.

[MrBBQ]

William, can you possibly elaborate/elucidate please?

If we're concerned (in our so-called nutritional excellence) about AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs, maillard products/aromatic hydrocarbons/HCAs etc., why aren't these other oxidation molecules of worthwhile consideration?

Isn't *fresh, unheated* (and from good soil) the way to go when you're trying to clear silent inflammation while at the same time delivering/uptaking the nutrients to facilitate healing?

Long-stored ghee, powdered milk (maybe even the whey powders that the low-fat people like) and powdered egg products had considerable impact on the tissues according to the histologists, so maybe oxysterols aren't so benign - how did you form your kinesthesis for these molecules? ;-))

I realise that there're those in their ivory towers and those with profit to make, but nevertheless, I'm interested in your reasoning...

[MrBBQ]

Furthermore, I don't know how much anyone here subscribes to the electronic nature of the contents of their plate, but doesn't cooked food (with its mildly/pronounced toxic payload) deliver electron-deficient molecules, as well as depleting spare electrons (toxins rob electrons) and anti-oxidant stores? Cooked-up molecules must be the basis for some inflammation...

I suppose cooking (along with soaking, fermenting etc.) could be considered a form of pre-digestion, but its associated apparatus and end-products could observably be deemed least natural (there's no other form that applies high temperature, except mildly in the case of fever or something like that).

The apparatus of cooking I suppose is more of an epigenetic prosthesis, but how well this reconciles (currently) with the human genome is playing itself out, of course.

I have no reason to articulate this verbiage, other than to invoke a deeper, more interesting response from you (William), possibly with a wider context.

[Michael]

I have no reason to articulate this verbiage

You're not kidding?!  Obviously demonstrating my poor education but I had to get the dictionary out for that one MrBBQ!   

I agree with what (I think!) MrBBQ was saying though William and would also appreciate elaboration of your comments.

Thanks for doing the productive experimentation Michael, which is really appreciated. My best results have always begun with the hand mincer.

I've spoken to Dave @ Green Pasture before and he informed me that due to the preservative/lactic acids in the fermented CLO, they could not even get a lipid peroxide reading after the bottle was left open outside the fridge for a long period. Ultimately, I suppose it's just like consuming "high" meats, which must somehow have microbially-preserved elements including the fragile/volatile fatty acids.

Does anyone here consume small quantities of plant-based PUFAs (hemp, flax, borage, evening primrose, blackcurrant seed)?

You're welcome!  Likewise, I'm finding this a very interesting thread on what I, at least, consider a vital subject.
Thanks for sharing the information from your conversations with Dave@GP.  That's reassuring to hear if it's credible.  With my very limited knowledge on the subject I could appreciate how the lactic acid could play a protective role.

I used to consume flax, borage and EPO and even got to the point where I bought a low-temperature oil extraction device.  This enabled me to buy (with plans to grow my own) borage seeds and create my own fresh, raw high GLA oil.  It produced an oil unrecognisable to the best quality raw commercial oils.  I tend to avoid all vegetable oils now.  Yes, the machine - like many of my other expensive gadgets - sits redundant! 

I would love to make "raw" ghee from grass-fed butter without a centrifuge like GP uses, if anyone has the secret! I'm off non-raw ghee for the meantime because I can secure nice animal fats.

I did have a milk/cream separator which may have done the job but it is no more unfortunately.  I'll experiment with different methods.  I'll let you know if I crack this one!

I consume 2ml of fermented CLO per day - the tingle is from the lactic acid (or other organic acids) content. Does anyone take krill oil?

I seem to recall that Tyler is taking the Krill oil.  Maybe he can confirm this?

So is the consensus to keep fat in as large chunks as possible in the fridge to minimise exposed surface area? Currently, I'm mincing all of my fat for quick access (consumed within a week or so).

I get the impression that is the general consensus MrBBQ.  That is certainly the opinion I have thus far formed from this discussion.  Likewise, I've been bulk processing up until now and consuming within 5 days.  Today was the first day I've started processing the suet for individual meals and, I must say, it's already proving a real pain with regard to time, extra preparation & clean up work, increased complexity preparing meals.  Therefore, I'm keen to nail if this change is absolutely essential.

[MrBBQ]

Haha, Michael, you're truly an experiential melting pot of perfectionism...Quite amusing how simplicity is usually/ironically the eventuality (although the meat+fat+water equation equals muscle cramps, rapid heart rate and one or two other unbalances for me, which I'm currently hoping will resolve when I decide to do it for a week or two again).

Gladly, I've changed to a different farm recently, with even better quality grass-fed meat at almost half the price, so my budget is more accommodating now (anyway, that's off-topic).

Like I said, the verbiage was appropriate self-deprecation, although I can't resist those voices sometimes.

I reserve judgement on the matter of these plant oils. I consume them as fresh as possible (pressed to order) in very small amounts daily. I recently started experimenting with Black Cumin Seed oil, which initially in 1ml doses (measured with a syringe) invoked a potent global feeling of wellbeing.

Do you know how it's possible to completely separate the milk solids from the oil without heating or an expensive centrifuge/spinner?

Would you be interested in selling the low-temp cold-presser? ;-))

Actually, I'm enjoying GP's raw ghee along with the GP CLO and NK??? krill, but other than the ghee, does anyone know any potent sources of K2 from fresh animals? I've been lacto-fermenting liver in jars of fizzy water kefir, although I don't think it's long enough to manufacture these varying quinones in the so-called sacred fermented CLO.

[Michael]

I've been lacto-fermenting liver in jars of fizzy water kefir, although I don't think it's long enough to manufacture these varying quinones in the so-called sacred fermented CLO.

It's good to know I'm not the only crazy one in this country conducting these regular in-house experiments! 

I'm glad to hear you're getting some benefits from the plant oils.  I would be reluctant to part with my oil extractor as I may later get back into experimenting with borage etc when I have some land to grow vast quantities of seeds.  As you can probably tell - I do tend to gather many weird and wonderful machines.  Maybe it's simply OCD?!  A profound observation that my intention is actually simplicity!     I'd be more than happy to lend you the extractor as I'm often lending out my gear (and it extends well beyond kitchen appliances!) to friends.  Of course, it'd only be viable if you're nearby.  I'm in Norwich, Norfolk.  Where are you MrBBQ?

Do you know how it's possible to completely separate the milk solids from the oil without heating or an expensive centrifuge/spinner?

Unfortunately, not at this point in time.  I do have a fantastic fine coffee filter that I intend to test and I'll let you know if I find any solutions.

[William]

William, can you possibly elaborate/elucidate please?

I tried pemmican and lived, and better than before. Millions have done likewise. That beats all the nay-sayers moaning about Maillard molecules, AGEs etc.
Bad reactions to properly rendered animal fats are idiosyncratic.

Re the electronic nature of our plates - tallow is an insulator. I've forgotten how to find the dielectric rating, but it works anyway.

BTW cigarette smoke is a most powerful anti-inflammatory, I read.

[PaleoPhil]

Yet this is a raw forum, William, so wouldn't it be more in harmony with the forum to at least give a fully raw diet a chance for a few weeks, or perhaps not spend so much time promoting rendered tallow and poo-pooing Maillard molecules, out of respect for the forum's objective? For example, Lex eats pemmican with tallow rendered above 40C, but he doesn't claim it's superior to his raw mix. And I say this as someone who hasn't noticed the huge differences between raw and cooked that some others have reported.

[William]

If harmony requires orthodoxy, few of us belong here, and nobody has proven that pemmican is not paleo.

I would much rather discuss a different fat than respond to the endless anti-fat posts.

[TylerDurden]

I tried pemmican and lived, and better than before. Millions have done likewise. That beats all the nay-sayers moaning about Maillard molecules, AGEs etc.

The  claims re pemmican have been few and far between and are all unverified, scientifically(and, as we've shown countless times on this and other raw forums, people do far, far better on raw animal fat than on pemmican). It is also simple nonsense to deny that AGEs and other heat-created toxins cause harm, given the mass of scientific evidence flatly rejecting your notions re heated animal fats, pemmican or otherwise.

BTW cigarette smoke is a most powerful anti-inflammatory, I read.

More childish nonsense. Cigarette-smoke contains heterocyclic amines which, just like the heterocyclic amines in cooked animal foods, cause inflammation:-

http://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/23/1/7.full

In future, please confine promotion of pemmican to the hot topics forum where it belongs - either that, or at least have the grace to routinely acknowledge that it is a 2nd-rate unhealthy food by comparison to  raw animal food/fat.