Author Topic: Advice on how to heal the gut  (Read 34405 times)

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Offline Spearhead

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Advice on how to heal the gut
« on: November 16, 2009, 08:08:44 am »
Hi everyone,

I've been lurking for a while on these forums and wanted to go ahead and take advantage of your expertise if you would be so kind. Over the last two years I've been suffering on and off from stomach cramps and indigestion, bloating, fatigue, itchiness and sporadic rashes, and heavy anxiety and nervousness when my gut is inflamed. Since early this year I have gradually been taking action to heal myself and try to break out of this vicious cycle my stomach is in. I've even consulted a Chek practitioner from the Chek institute to help me try to pinpoint the internal problems. Ironically enough I'm writing this, not because I'm concerned about getting parasites from eating raw, but rather because I believe I have a parasitic infection (almost everything else has been ruled out) and I need advise on how to approach a raw paleo diet with this in mind. In any case I have a lab coming back in a week or 2 that will confirm this with 100% certainty at which point the guy I am working with is writing me a protocol to cleanse out the gut.

I'm not entirely inclined to go 100% raw paleo until I've killed whatever is living inside of me, but I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on healing parasites through RPD or any other recommendations for what I can do to heal myself. Maybe try adding some raw organ meats in combination with my cooked regimen for the time being?

Also, I recently ate some sashimi with seaweed this week and it came out nearly undigested on the way out, is it common for raw meat and seafood to come out like this in the early stages or is this more than likely the bugs inside of me eating my food first?

I'm also curious to know if you think a Metabolic type diet as developed by Dr. William Walcott is compatible with RPD? I for one am a bit skeptical of ZC even though I believe the human diet should be largely protein based.

Any help you guys can give would be awesome.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 10:17:07 am »
The solution will depend on what you have, but here are a few remedies that have worked for me and my family:

- Try drinking chamomile tea.  Also get some chamomile oil on your tummy externally.
- Try fully cooked meat whether pork or beef to sooth inflammation.
- Try fasting, orange juice fasting did wonders for me, 3 days.  
- Try Bieler's soup daily for 5 days.
- I know a bunch of anti-parasite remedies like internal zappers, external zappers, beam ray and herbal anti-parasite stuff

Of course once I got my tummy online after some inflammation due to non-paleo food I quickly got back on the raw track.
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Offline Spearhead

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 10:43:59 am »
The solution will depend on what you have, but here are a few remedies that have worked for me and my family:

- Try drinking chamomile tea.  Also get some chamomile oil on your tummy externally.
- Try fully cooked meat whether pork or beef to sooth inflammation.
- Try fasting, orange juice fasting did wonders for me, 3 days.  
- Try Bieler's soup daily for 5 days.
- I know a bunch of anti-parasite remedies like internal zappers, external zappers, beam ray and herbal anti-parasite stuff

Of course once I got my tummy online after some inflammation due to non-paleo food I quickly got back on the raw track.


Thanks good samaritan.

I've actually been drinking lots of chamomile and this has helped a bit but by no means has it solved the problem completely. I guess I'm just curious as the RPD perspective on curing parasites or other intestinal infections as it would seem to me RPD has a lot of intrinsic healing properties, but maybe this can only happen once the gut is free of inflammation?
Anyways once I know for sure what it is I have it will make combating it much easier, unfortunately I can't take any anti parasitics until I collect my sample to avoid getting a false negative.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 11:00:27 am »
If you want to kill parasites, GoodSamaritan is your man. If you want to strengthen your body so parasites don't bother you, then if I were you I would try RPD and see how it goes.

My own approach is to get back to basics--raw red meat, animal fat, eggs and other meats and fish--and then see if I can tolerate some berries, apples, greens and one or two other things added to that. My experiment is not complete yet. YMMV
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 11:12:32 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 11:14:19 am »
I was waiting for GS to chime in here :)

Why does cooked meat sooth inflammation?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 11:27:29 am »
I was waiting for GS to chime in here :)

Why does cooked meat sooth inflammation?

It probably depends on what you got.
I was writhing in agony after eating a lot of non paleo sushi.
I tried many different approaches to cure my lower bowel inflammation (a slight tap of my a** and the pain radiates inside).  
Of course I tried raw meat first. (no difference)
Then tried fruit. (made it worse)
Then tried fully cooked fatty pork (that worked really fast).

I don't really know why cooked fatty pork soothed my bowel inflammation that time, but it did.  I mentioned my stumbling onto this solution to another person in a cooked paleo diet forum and it worked for him too.

Some things are just trial and error.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 03:47:14 pm »
Do you feel your heavy anxiety is caused by your gut being inflamed or do you feel anxious because it's inflamed and that worries you?

Sound like a psychiatrist  :)

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 04:25:54 pm »
It probably depends on what you got.
I was writhing in agony after eating a lot of non paleo sushi.
I tried many different approaches to cure my lower bowel inflammation (a slight tap of my a** and the pain radiates inside).  
Of course I tried raw meat first. (no difference)
Then tried fruit. (made it worse)
Then tried fully cooked fatty pork (that worked really fast).

I don't really know why cooked fatty pork soothed my bowel inflammation that time, but it did.  I mentioned my stumbling onto this solution to another person in a cooked paleo diet forum and it worked for him too.

Some things are just trial and error.


Raw fatty pork works very well for me to south bowel inflammation.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 06:19:10 pm »
Considering that I had those exact same symptoms pre-rawpalaeodiet(plus numerous others), I have my doubts as to whether a parasite is involved(in my own case, the reason was due to a near-destruction of my glandular system resulting in adrenal burnout etc. etc.)

Another point, as raised in a recent article, is that parasites are usually only an issue for those who've been eating unhealthy, cooked diets:-

http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/parasites-those-who-inhabit-us/

In other words, even in the unlikelihood that you have parasites, it would be far better for you to eat rawpalaeo and strengthen your system than to get rid of them. By all means use anti-parasitical remedies like wormwood tincture, cayenne pepper and pumpkin seeds, but that's not the real issue.

Re metabolic typing:- Largely useless when applied to rawpalaeo as we don't eat raw grains or raw dairy and the like, generally.

ZC, however raw, can be an issue for some, though others appear to do fine with it. I would suggest caution and trying something a little less extreme, for the moment. With ZC, anyway, one usually has to plan so far ahead to avoid cheating(ie buying several weeks' of high-quality raw grassfed meats beforehand so as to never be caught short).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 06:13:32 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Spearhead

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2009, 12:35:14 am »
Considering that I had those exact same symptoms pre-rawpalaeodiet(plus numerous others), I have my doubts as to whether a parasite is involved(in my own case, the reason was due to a near-destruction of my glandular system resulting in adrenal burnout etc. etc.)

Another point, as raised in a recent article, is that parasites are usually only an issue for those who've been eating unhealthy, cooked diets:-

http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/parasites-those-who-inhabit-us/

In other words, even in the unlikelihood that you have parasites, it would be far better for you to eat rawpalaeo and strengthen your system than to get rid of them. By all means use anti-parasitical remedies like wormwood tincture, cayenne pepper and pumpkin seeds, but that's not the real issue.

Re metabolic typing:- Largely useless when applied to rawpalaeo as we don't eat raw grains or raw dairy and the like, generally.

ZC, however raw, can be an issue for some, though others appear to do fine with it. I would suggest caution and trying something a little less extreme, for the moment. With ZC, anyway, one usually has to plan so far ahead to avoid cheating(ie buying several weeks' of high0quality raw grassfed meats beforehand so as to never be caught short).

Tyler, thanks for your reply. My understanding was that only certain parasites can form a symbiotic relationship with us whereas others will always be harmful. What exactly causes the parasites to drain the host organism on a cooked meat diet while not doing so on a raw diet? Is it not that there are simply more nutrients to go around but the parasite continues to drain the host regardless?
Also, what is the real cause of food poisoning? Are there no cases of food poisoning caused by raw meat?

Re metabolic typing, although Walcott follows Sally Fallon's nutritional principles pretty closely, I was more referring to how carb, protein, and fat ratios are distributed along an either predominately high protein and fat/low carb, high carb, low fat and protein, or mixed type. The claim behind it seems to be that certain people do better with different ratios and require less of one group than the other. I don't see how excluding dairy and grains would necessarily exclude the idea 100%, although I'll admit following a metabolic type has not improved my digestion or energy at all but that is likely due to other underlying causes.

As to ZC, I don't think I would do well on such a diet, I think my goal is to go for an Omnivorous RPD supplementing my protein and fats with plenty of vegetable and fruit carbs.

In any case, I've thought a good place to start would be to start supplementing my cooked diet by eating some raw liver and see how I do, and if it gives me the benefits I'm looking for then I can build from there. Do you think this might be a good way to help me get some relief? Incidentally, the Chek practitioner I'm working with is not against eating raw meats but he has told me that since I have a compromised gut immunity I run risks given that there are going to be unknown microbes on my meat that may harm me. Personally I think this sounds a bit questionable, what's the RPD science to refute this type of argument?

Offline Spearhead

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2009, 12:38:13 am »
Do you feel your heavy anxiety is caused by your gut being inflamed or do you feel anxious because it's inflamed and that worries you?

Sound like a psychiatrist  :)



I've been suffering from horrible anxiety since 2004. However, while I used to get anxious all the time regardless of how my gut felt, since improving my diet to a nearly Paleo diet I'm only ever anxious when my gut is inflamed, which for the last month has been almost constant.

Offline Michael

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 01:13:54 am »
Hi Spearhead,

Like Tyler, I too suffered most if not all of your symptoms years ago so I will lend you my own experiences should they prove of any use to you.

Firstly, I would suspect low stomach hydrochloric acid as evidenced by your frequent passing of undigested foods.  Betaine Hydrochloride supplements will help with this issue.  If you have suffered with low stomach acid at any point, the chances are that you have been invaded by parasites as they're usually dealt with in healthy subjects by strong stomach acid.

Anyhow, parasites are rife in most of the population due to incorrect diet.  I relieved ALL of the symptoms you describe by long scientific fasting.  Check out www.fasting.com.  This was over 10 years ago and was the beginning of my health resolution.  However, with my many years since of following raw animal food diets I'm not sure if this step is completely necessary.  RPD would probably resolve the issues over time anyway.  If Aajonous Vonderplanitz is to be believed, the parasites are doing a good job in fact by saving you from a lifetime of incorrect eating.

As Tyler mentioned, some of the ubiquitous parasite herbs will probably help but, I expect, you will need something more powerful.  I had used all of the most powerful parasite herbs before my fast.  Despite this I still removed parasites of all descriptions, literally, by the bucket load throughout my 60 day fast!

My suggestion - cleanse then rebuild with correct nutrition.
 
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline van

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 02:48:09 am »
 If I could jump in,  eat only when hungry, stop before you're full,  eat only grass fed healthy animals, know the source, don't mix meat with carbs, find a good source of grass fed fat that is tasty to you in it's raw form.  Small frequent amounts of garlic with meat and fat meals doesn't give most microbes food they want to eat.  don't expect overnight results.  And when you get your lab results you'll know more as what you may or may not have.  Good luck

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2009, 05:01:32 am »
Very good jump in van!  i agree with all of those.  I will add though, Spearhead, that I also had extensive hospital and lab tests done when I had my problems all those years ago.  They found nothing!  Months later I fasted and, as I said, shifted bucketloads of parasites from a few millimetres in size to very large garden earth worm size!!  My point - don't rely too much on the outcome of your tests!
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Spearhead

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2009, 07:45:12 am »
Why should I avoid eating carbs with meat? Is this due to ph levels in the stomach?

Also Michael, as to the lab test. I am getting pretty much the most in depth lab test that exists, but I agree that it's not by any means guaranteed to pinpoint anything. Here's a list of everything it tests for: http://www.forresthealth.com/store/GI-Effects-Stool-Profile-Complete.html

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2009, 09:01:46 am »
Quote
Months later I fasted and, as I said, shifted bucketloads of parasites from a few millimetres in size to very large garden earth worm size!!

serious?!? did you do enemas or something? and that made you better?... how do we know that parasites are bad? 

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2009, 12:01:51 pm »
Quote
It probably depends on what you got.
I was writhing in agony after eating a lot of non paleo sushi.
I tried many different approaches to cure my lower bowel inflammation (a slight tap of my a** and the pain radiates inside). 
Of course I tried raw meat first. (no difference)
Then tried fruit. (made it worse)
Then tried fully cooked fatty pork (that worked really fast).

I don't really know why cooked fatty pork soothed my bowel inflammation that time, but it did.  I mentioned my stumbling onto this solution to another person in a cooked paleo diet forum and it worked for him too.

Some things are just trial and error.

GS - So, did you eat solely fatty pork for some duration of time?... how long?  what initial foods did you go to from there?

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 12:19:17 pm »
Why should I avoid eating carbs with meat? Is this due to ph levels in the stomach?

Your body uses different enzymes to break down the carbs versus the meat & fat. If both are consumed in the same meal digestion is compromised for both. ;)

Welcome to the forum Spearhead.  :)
I think Van's really hit the basics right on the head.
So long as you eat quality raw meat and especially quality raw fat your body will heal. The other variables of quantities, percentages, etc. will resolve themselves in time. Each body is different so we can all share our experiences to help guide you but the ultimate advice is to listen closely to your body.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 06:54:29 pm »
Tyler, thanks for your reply. My understanding was that only certain parasites can form a symbiotic relationship with us whereas others will always be harmful. What exactly causes the parasites to drain the host organism on a cooked meat diet while not doing so on a raw diet? Is it not that there are simply more nutrients to go around but the parasite continues to drain the host regardless?

It's not just that. The problem is that a cooked diet also weakens the body(re immune-system etc.) making it less resistant to a parasite. Another issue is the environment. For example, RVAFers have no issues with eating "high-meat"(aged raw(ie rotting) meats) because the bacteria live in a healthy environment(ie raw grassfed meats). On the other hand, the worst thing one can do is to eat well-aged, cooked meats rich in bacteria as the bacteria then become deadly due to the unhealthy environment they are in(close contact with toxins from the cooked food) - anyway, that's why canned foods are so connected to serious food-poisoning cases.

Quote
Also, what is the real cause of food poisoning? Are there no cases of food poisoning caused by raw meat?

Again, it's a question of the environment. As pointed out previously in this article:-

http://jacksonville.com/business/2009-11-08/story/florida_oyster_advocates_fuming_over_fda_treatment_0

the people who die or are seriously affected by food-poisoning from raw animal foods are precisely those people who've been on cooked diets for years and have suffered very serious health-problems such as diabetes, heart-disease etc. etc. In other words, if they's been eating RVAF diets, the absolute worst they'd have suffered from raw animal foods would have been a slight digestive upset or the like, and then only very rarely.

Quote
Re metabolic typing, although Walcott follows Sally Fallon's nutritional principles pretty closely, I was more referring to how carb, protein, and fat ratios are distributed along an either predominately high protein and fat/low carb, high carb, low fat and protein, or mixed type. The claim behind it seems to be that certain people do better with different ratios and require less of one group than the other. I don't see how excluding dairy and grains would necessarily exclude the idea 100%, although I'll admit following a metabolic type has not improved my digestion or energy at all but that is likely due to other underlying causes.

Agreed some people have particular issues with carbs or animal fats due to unusual past health-problems.

Quote
As to ZC, I don't think I would do well on such a diet, I think my goal is to go for an Omnivorous RPD supplementing my protein and fats with plenty of vegetable and fruit carbs.

Yeah, ZC is more restrictive and more difficult to implement, among other issues.

Quote
In any case, I've thought a good place to start would be to start supplementing my cooked diet by eating some raw liver and see how I do, and if it gives me the benefits I'm looking for then I can build from there. Do you think this might be a good way to help me get some relief? Incidentally, the Chek practitioner I'm working with is not against eating raw meats but he has told me that since I have a compromised gut immunity I run risks given that there are going to be unknown microbes on my meat that may harm me. Personally I think this sounds a bit questionable, what's the RPD science to refute this type of argument?

If you look at the various websites promoting grassfed meats you'll find studies showing that bacteria in grassfed meats are more healthy than grainfed meats(eatwild.com has a significant section telling of studies).

I would strongly recommend that you get used to raw, fresh muscle-meats first as that's the path most newbies prefer to take. Raw organ-meats have a stronger taste(as they have higher nuteient-levels than raw muscle-meats) so best to get used to the raw muscle-meats first and try the raw organ-meats later. Besides, most people find raw liver(even grassfed) to take the longest of all the raw animal parts to get used to).
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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2009, 08:55:02 pm »
GS - So, did you eat solely fatty pork for some duration of time?... how long?  what initial foods did you go to from there?

Just one big cooked slow roasted fatty pork meal at lunch made me sleep like a baby on day 1.
I took another of the same commercial slow roasted fatty pork meal the 2nd day.
That was it.  Finished.

I blogged about my suffering here http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/08/02/restaurant-sushi-made-me-awfully-sick-for-a-few-days/
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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2009, 10:05:37 pm »
Besides, most people find raw liver(even grassfed) to take the longest of all the raw animal parts to get used to).

Really? I'd imagine it'd be the spleen or kidneys as they're stronger flavored IMO. I still can't eat raw spleen but tolerate and/or enjoy the rest just fine.

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2009, 10:30:31 pm »
Really? I'd imagine it'd be the spleen or kidneys as they're stronger flavored IMO. I still can't eat raw spleen but tolerate and/or enjoy the rest just fine.

    I'm fine with spleen, kidney if it's fresh, testicle I can't see, too fishy.  I think organs are a sometimes thing.  We are omnivores.  In the wild we wouldn't go around killing a dozen animals and only eating the spleens. We would eat a variety, and not kill as many.
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Offline Spearhead

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2009, 02:03:05 am »
Your body uses different enzymes to break down the carbs versus the meat & fat. If both are consumed in the same meal digestion is compromised for both. ;)

Welcome to the forum Spearhead.  :)
I think Van's really hit the basics right on the head.
So long as you eat quality raw meat and especially quality raw fat your body will heal. The other variables of quantities, percentages, etc. will resolve themselves in time. Each body is different so we can all share our experiences to help guide you but the ultimate advice is to listen closely to your body.

Hi djr,

Do you mind telling me how you work out your carbs and proteins throughout the day then? Do you eat only carbs for lunch and then proteins at dinner? Or do you just have multiple meals throughout the day?

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2009, 03:33:14 am »
Hi djr,

Do you mind telling me how you work out your carbs and proteins throughout the day then? Do you eat only carbs for lunch and then proteins at dinner? Or do you just have multiple meals throughout the day?

No problem. :)
I'm one of the zero-carb raw members here on the board. Mind you, this isn't by choice but necessity due to a mix of food allergies and suspected Candida overgrowth. If I could eat some carbs without problems I'd most definitely have some fruit to supplement my diet but alas I can't, at least for the time being.

My typical day will involve a good size meal (~1 pound of meat with 1/4 pound or so of fat, all raw) eaten anywhere from 8am-12pm depending on my energy left over from the previous night's meal as well as if I've done any stenuous work that morning.
If I'm doing a lot of energy expending work (either physical exercise or just mental energy as my job [project manager for an architectural firm] sometimes takes a lot of heavy thinking), or the quality of my meat is less than optimal (I've noticed I personally get less nourishment from previously frozen meat as opposed to fresh) I may need another meal 4-5 hours later of close to the same size.
Dinner is another meal of generally the same size but with a conscious effort to include a bit more fat as it's much more sustaining for me.
As time has gone on I've shifted from more frequent tiny meals to two larger meals in general each day. I attribute this wholly to my processing the fat better.

If I could eat carbs I'd eat a large meal of meat and fat in the mornings, a light snack of some fruit at ~3PMish as any glycemic shift wouldn't interfere with much of my work day, and a large meal of meat/fat at 6-7PM. This would give plenty of digestion time at each meal and should be very sustaining for the body. :)

Offline Michael

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Re: Advice on how to heal the gut
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 04:17:07 am »
Quote
Mind you, this isn't by choice but necessity due to a mix of food allergies and suspected Candida overgrowth. If I could eat some carbs without problems I'd most definitely have some fruit to supplement my diet but alas I can't, at least for the time being.

Ditto!  I'm enjoying much stabilised energy throughout the day since going zc/vlc but initially started it only to deal with suspected major candida problems.  It certainly seems to greatly help with the symptoms of this also.

serious?!? did you do enemas or something? and that made you better?... how do we know that parasites are bad? 

I don't think we do know that parasites are bad.  My own opinion is that some are and some aren't.  By 'cleaning the slate' through fasting I was better able to determine whether the parasites were required for some internal cleaning after following an improved post-fast diet.  If they were needed they'd soon be back!   :)  Yes, you're correct.  I did utilise daily enemas during the fast.  I wouldn't recommend their use at any other time other than in the fasting state.  The whole regime certainly did help.  I felt better after completion than I have ever felt before or after in my entire 38 years of life!

Really? I'd imagine it'd be the spleen or kidneys as they're stronger flavored IMO. I still can't eat raw spleen but tolerate and/or enjoy the rest just fine.

I agree.  Kidney just tastes of pure urine to me and, clearly, is not at all appetising!!  Liver is ok in small quantities.  I tend to blend it into a drink.  Heart is quite meat-like in texture and rather bland.  The easiest organ to eat regularly I find.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

 

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