Squat Motivation Thread

[PaleoPhil]

Squat Motivation Thread

I think what sidetracked Kurite's thread on squatting was the reference to "Asian" in the title. I'm interested in squatting (both as a form of sitting and as a natural form of exercise) but don't want this thread to focus on discussions of the physical differences (such as leg/torso ratio and muscularity) between Asians and Europeans/Americans, except when discussing how physical limitations can be overcome or the differences between "Asian" (aka "third world") and "Western" style squatting, nor do I wish to get into a negative line of thinking of what we cannot accomplish or how it is not perfectly "proper" as compared to what thin Asians can do. Instead, I'd like this thread to be about what we CAN accomplish and tips, positive info and motivating stuff we can share on the subject. I'm not talking about seeking perfection here, I'm talking about doing the best that we can do. I'm not ignoring individual limitations, I'm trying to take them into account and help people adapt as necessary so as not to get stuck in a rut of focusing on limitations. I'm seeking encouragement and reminders to do squat sitting and exercising--not discouragement--because I don't do it as often as I'd like. Feel free to share tips, images, histories, science info, etc. on squatting. Tangents about other natural forms of sitting and exercising are OK, though the main focus should be on squatting.

Squatting apparently comes naturally to infants:

The squat is a natural instinct movement that we unlearn as we grow older. Of all the movements we use, the squat is probably the most important to master because of the incredible mobility and strength it offers. Here's an example of a great squat:
(from IF YOU CAN'T SQUAT, YOU WILL DIE EARLY.
http://www.crossfitfredericton.com/fredericton-exercise/2007/8/9/if-you-cant-squat-you-will-die-early.html)

...and to all primates:

One adaptation to enable squat sitting in those who can't get their heels all the way to the ground is to squat on your forefeet with the heels slightly raised, like one of the fellows in this image is doing: . This is called "Western squat," even though the person doing it in this case is Asian.

Here's a Western/Asian squat mix:

Some American weight lifters found they benefited from squat sitting:

You'll notice that in third-world countries, there will be a lot of situations where people are hanging out or working, and rather than sitting or kneeling down, they squat. They can sit like this comfortably for hours. It seems like a simple thing and can be easily overlooked, but try it some time. The average North American adult can't even get into this position, let alone stay there for any length of time.

...

After my guys started developing their third-world squat technique, they started to notice something: Their performance in the weight room was improving. Deadlifting off the floor with a neutral spine and squatting deep suddenly felt like second nature. Lower back pain diminished. ....

If you couldn't keep your weight off of your toes and barely got your thighs to parallel before you started tipping over backwards, you have a fairly severe degree of immobility.

If you're at this level it'll be challenging, if not impossible, to squat down with your heels on the ground. Your goal here is simply to attain this.

In order to prevent falling backwards, grab onto something sturdy in front of you, like a doorframe or a handrail. While maintaining a neutral spine (sternum high and brace those abs!) grab onto whatever's in front of you and lean back on it, pushing your butt out behind you. ....
(The Third-World Squat by Craig Weller, http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=1856085&cr)

This video gives tips on how to do "the Asian squat," though it also shows Westerners and people of African descent doing it, and thus suggests that people of various backgrounds can do it, but your leg/torso ratio may limit you to
"Western squat": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWTmg4dHiKg&feature=player_embedded. One of the tips they give is to use a wide stance, which I also suggested in another thread. I prefer Asian/third world/traditional squat myself and it's one of my favorite ways of sitting, because it reduces the stress and pain in my back.

Esther Gokhale warns against trying to force a full squat if you can't do it:

"don't try to force a squat. In most situations you can do the job equally well with a modified squat (on foot flat on the floor, the other on the ball of the foot). The times squatting does help are childbirth and evacuating your bowels. In these situations I recommend using some extra support under your heels - this makes squatting easy on the ankles and back. For other situations like certain squatting Yoga poses, I recommend not going all the way into the pose." http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2008/11/posture-functional-training-and-b-squat.html

Bryle Lane developed a squat lift he called the "B squat" for people who have difficulty squatting with their heels flat: http://www.ironsports.tv/bsquat.html

Another alternative for lifters who have difficulty squatting fully, such as those with short torsos, is to put a board or other lift under the heels, at least to start with: http://www.davedraper.com/squatting-with-raised-heels.html.

"Why Squat?" by Jon of Crossfit, http://www.crossfitleman.ch/exercises/why-squat/

[KD]

Well I can now confirm personally that the bulk of CrossFit is squatting.

if you (general) can't do body-weight squats or weighted squats they will certainly make you do them anyway, if that is a motivation.

my last workout included 50 Thrusters (squats) [ with 60-70? lbs of weight - http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_BBThrusters.wmv] in addition to 50 of 3 other exercises. one of which being a medicine ball squat [ http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_Wallball.wmv ].

so short of joining, they post the WOD (workout of the day) on their websites and you can just do the routines (if possible) from home or modify them and practice on a regular basis. If anything, the types of specific exercises and intensities, should work shocking the appropriate muscles and such to compliment just adding squats or modified squats into everyday routines.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for the vids. Yes, squats are definitely big in Crossfit, Starting Strength and most other weightlifting/body-building schools of thought, along with dead lifts. I think one reason they are so beneficial is they mimic natural, every-day movements of our ancestors.

Here's another Crossfit routine for novices like me - http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/BeginnersMay03.pdf. Unfortunately, some of the links are defunct.

[B.Money]

I have learned a lot about deep squats over the past few years, at least I like to think so. I used to squat powerlifting style for the longest time and something about it just bothered me--didn't feel natural, didn't look right, just something seemed wrong.

Anyway, the biggest factors I have found to the deepest squat while still keeping a neutral back are: weightlifting shoes with a heel, front squats, sitting down "between" your legs (open your hips up and fall down into the space it creates).

basically if you slap on weightlifting shoes, and a bar across your delts you will probably end up in a pretty solid squatting position by default. Depending on your body structure, you may need a heeled shoe to get into a deep squat without rounding over in the bottom. Those pictures in the OP wouldn't fly with a heavy barbell on their backs, so you have to either have less depth, or a heel in every case I have seen.

The squat tends to get "messed up" (emphasis switches to moving more weight, less natural movement, less depth, etc.) when the lifter uses low bar position, wider stance, and sits back into the squat.  Each one of these details completely changes the center of gravity and the style of squat.

Lots of crossfit videos I see have the rippetoe form and end up squatting like a strange mix of the two, and IMO its kind of stupid.

Just my opinion but you either want a natural, deep, full squat(like in the pictures above)--or a squat that allows you to move a lot of weight, the rippetoe style squat fails at both.

Hope this is on subject

[Paleo Donk]

I wrote a pretty detailed description on how to perform an olympic squat - http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/insulin-growth-hormone-bulking/msg27352/#msg27352

[B.Money]

Pretty solid! Only things I personally disagree with is (elbows pitched back, break at hips, knees behind toes, and head down). This is nitpicking of course, and these kind of details are stupid to worry about usually.

All these things mentioned above will cause you to pitch forward slightly (which is usually fine) but most olympic lifters try to keep upright as possible, which means knee drift, and usually either a neutral head or looking up, and elbows close to under the bar. John Broz (a leading olympic coach in the US) mentions the body follows the head, so its important as soon as you get out of the hole to get that chest up and slam your hips through. Last thing you want to do is let the weight start to bend you over forward.

Some of broz lifters (some of the best olympic squatting out there!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvkZuG-CFjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WSulFCHnk

[KD]

BAM

[Paleo Donk]

Hmm, how'd you do that?

[PaleoPhil]

Wow, congrats on already doing a flat-heel squat sit, KD. That photo shows well how it's difficult for you to get your arms over your knees. My thinking is there must be an alternative method for people with short torsos, though I haven't seen an image of one yet.

Maybe something like this, with the arms around the knees instead of over them?


--------
My left knee has been cracking less when I squat. I hope that continues.

Here are some European-American squat-sitters, albeit mostly slim ones:

[kurite]

I actually can do what kd is doing but its not comfortable for me. A couple of days ago I learned that one of my friends squats when hes playing video games for hours.

[PaleoPhil]

Not surprising. I find I can last longer without moving if I'm squatting than I can sitting in a chair (in a chair I inevitably end up sliding down it into a laying-back slouch, which is not good for the back).

[KD]

PD and Kurite: yeah, when you subtract the fact that I can only hold the posture for 30 seconds without serious squirming, its somewhat less impressive. But happily there has been some increase in flexibility or alignment towards the positive. Since the last shots I've been doing the insane sets of tabata squats at CF (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/exercisebodybuilding/today%27s-workout/50/), plus many of the weighted squats and a few other stretches like the spiderman and earthworm crawls, duck-walking etc... that have probably been beneficial. I've also been sleeping on the wood floor now, but that is very recent. haven't really practiced the Asian squats themselves much.

phil: yeah, its definitely still messing with the balance point and exerting more stress on the hips that normally I imagine. It feels better getting into it, but still definitely a pose rather than a natural motion. We shall see how it develops. I just tried a few other things to sturdy myself. the arms crossed seems like it might be another thing I have to master if it is to work, its hard to tell based on 5 minutes of trying.

I like this dude's helmet, he looks ready for something fun.

[kurite]

Keep us updated

[Paleo Donk]

My squatting has progressed nicely the last couple months - surely to do with my subconscious reminding me of this thread. I held a good squat for 3-5 minutes and could have gone longer if I wasn't so bored. Just a few weeks ago I had trouble even getting in the position for more than a few seconds. I have been lifting (squatting and deadlifting) barefoot and stretching my calves in an AIS (Active Isolated Stretching - holding a stretch for 2 seconds releasing and repeating for reps) manner as well as concentrating on landing on my forefoot when walking barefoot outside. Its still not comfortable but tolerable. Maybe its completely the fact that I am getting more skilled at squatting (learning balance, foot positioning, etc..) and nothing to do with the above but I doubt it.

[PaleoPhil]

SQUAT

"one of the most basic human movements"  --Mark Sisson

Me: it must have been a daily or near-daily movement for 100% of our ancient ancestors whose only option for defecating and likely most common method of sitting was by squatting. So try to gradually incorporate it into your daily life.

If you can achieve a full squat, you can sit without needing a chair or even a rock. You bring your chair with you wherever you go!

You can squat discreetly, or go public and have fun pissing off your friends and relatives and frightening strangers as they wonder if you've descended into what ethnocentric bigots call "savagery".    You can tell them you're just doing what works for you. However and wherever you plan on doing it, don't put it off. Get started right after you learn proper form and tips from Mark Sisson's video below--even if you can only do a partial squat at first. Just do it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNRiFnyqTxQ

"Watch kids at play. They squat effortlessly. It’s
second nature. And for many modern huntergatherers,
the squat represents the default resting
position. Some call it the “third world squat.”
Most adults in developed countries, meanwhile,
bend (incorrectly I might add, compromising the
spinal discs) to pick stuff up. Instead of squatting
down to rest, we look for a chair. Is it any wonder
why many of us have no mobility when it comes to
squatting? If it’s not the hips, it’s the knees. If it’s
not the ankles, it’s the back. It doesn’t help when
most doctors advise against the squat, especially
full, lower than parallel squats, because they’re
“bad for the knees.” A full squat, performed with
proper technique, is perfectly safe and supports
knee health. We have generally forgotten how to
squat properly, but Primal Blueprint Fitness will
develop this lost, essential skill.

You don’t need to perform heavy back squats—I
just want you to gain the mobility and strength necessary
to perform a full bodyweight squat. Adding
massive amounts of weight to a barbell squat will
develop strength, power, and good amounts of
muscle fiber, but it isn’t necessary for PBF. You will,
however, have a firm grasp of proper squat form
should you decide to up the ante in the future."

Source: Mark Sisson, Primal Blueprint Fitness

[infinitenexus]

Pretty solid! Only things I personally disagree with is (elbows pitched back, break at hips, knees behind toes, and head down). This is nitpicking of course, and these kind of details are stupid to worry about usually.

All these things mentioned above will cause you to pitch forward slightly (which is usually fine) but most olympic lifters try to keep upright as possible, which means knee drift, and usually either a neutral head or looking up, and elbows close to under the bar. John Broz (a leading olympic coach in the US) mentions the body follows the head, so its important as soon as you get out of the hole to get that chest up and slam your hips through. Last thing you want to do is let the weight start to bend you over forward.

Some of broz lifters (some of the best olympic squatting out there!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvkZuG-CFjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WSulFCHnk

I must nitpick your nitpicks now

I also disagree with keeping the head down, I believe it's better to keep it up like in the video you posted, and I 100% agree that pitching forward in a barbell squat is bad.  However, keeping the knees behind the toes, and all the weight on the heels keeps the lower legs in a strong and stable position, and it helps protect the knees.  The key to keeping your knees behind the toes is to bend your torso over, to balance your rear end sticking out back.

[infinitenexus]

Oh, and I think I can really benefit from this natural squatting instead of sitting.  With me being in the Army, it's fairly often that I'm outdoors bored, standing around with nothing to sit on but a rock or tree stump.  I've tried squatting, but my feet, ankles, and knees just can't take it beyond literally 15 seconds.  The squatting itself doesn't hurt right away, but getting up gives me that "old man knees" feeling.  So if I just regularly squat, instead of sit, it'll get better?  My body will get used to it, even in combat boots?

[raw]

being asian indian, i do squatting beside sitting in my everyday life at home. even now my position is squatting when i'm typing this. 

[PaleoPhil]

... The squatting itself doesn't hurt right away, but getting up gives me that "old man knees" feeling.  So if I just regularly squat, instead of sit, it'll get better?  My body will get used to it, even in combat boots?

Did you check out Mark Sisson's video? No need to force it to the point of pain. You can start out slowly and gently and increase the intensity as you get better at squatting.

being asian indian, i do squatting beside sitting in my everyday life at home. even now my position is squatting when i'm typing this. 

Yes, I predict someone will sell an office chair you can squat on some day.  

[raw]

Yes, I predict someone will sell an office chair you can squat on some day.  

why people need to buy special chair for squatting? if you're not over weight, you can seat or squat on it anyway. in asia, people even use the toilet in squatting position. happy toilet time

[yuli]

A couple of days ago I learned that one of my friends squats when hes playing video games for hours.

I actually squat constantly in my chair, I have a huge arm chair at my computer desk and I always squat in it while working or playing games, I almost never have my feet off of it...in fact sitting 'normally' for a long time with my feet on the floor feels unnatural, my feet and legs begin to shake and feel itchy like as if I need to move them. When I am taken to a restaurant I eventually have to take off my shoes and cross my legs while on the chair (I could squat in the chair but then I won't be taken to a restaurant anymore  )

[B.Money]

I must nitpick your nitpicks now

I also disagree with keeping the head down, I believe it's better to keep it up like in the video you posted, and I 100% agree that pitching forward in a barbell squat is bad.  However, keeping the knees behind the toes, and all the weight on the heels keeps the lower legs in a strong and stable position, and it helps protect the knees.  The key to keeping your knees behind the toes is to bend your torso over, to balance your rear end sticking out back.

The problem with keeping the knees behind the toes is that you will never get into that deep of a squat with weight on your back, while keeping a flat back. This is fine if you don't need to squat that deep, but for olympic lifters or someone that wants to replicate a natural squat/sitting position it will be impossible to be in that bottom position, and have your knees behind your toes, and have your butt back.


Is this what you mean or did I miss the point? lol

[infinitenexus]

We mean the same thing, i think, we're just looking at it differently.  Squatting with the butt back is slightly different than the asian sit-squat, definitely.  So while it's awkward for sitting, for exercise/strength it's awesome, as it puts the knees/lower legs in a safe and strong position, and focuses on the largest, strongest muscles.  That's why all powerlifters use this form.  As for olympic weightlifters, they must be able to put the weight overhead, which requires them to keep their torso more upright.  So from the viewpoint of exercise, they're both good, just different.  Olympic style squatting uses more quads and allows for overhead lifting, while the butt-out, powerlifter style uses more hips and glutes and is better for just squatting the maximum possible weight.  Of course, both of these forms are purely in regards to weightlifting, on the topic of sit-squatting, the knees definitely have to go out.  I guess I should have clarified that a bit, I was just talking about the exercise, not the sit.

Also, once the hips loosen up a bit, even with the powerlifting style squat you can get pretty deep.  I can easily go down into what's often called an "ass to grass" squat.  It does take some time for the hips to stretch out, though.

[infinitenexus]

Did you check out Mark Sisson's video? No need to force it to the point of pain. You can start out slowly and gently and increase the intensity as you get better at squatting.

I checked out the video.  Glad to see he was wearing the vibram fivefingers, those are great shoes and I love mine.

My issue isn't form or having to force myself down into a squat.  I can easily go down all the way into a full squat, but I just start to ache after a short period.  I guess I just need to get used to it.

[PaleoPhil]

You may well be right. I can squat sit longer and more comfortably than any other method and a spinal curvature I developed in my youth that resulted in back pain when I sat in ways other than squatting gave me additional incentive to squat sit, which is why I've been doing it my whole life despite having people criticize me for doing it. People would insist that it "must be" uncomfortable even after I told them it's the most comfortable method of sitting for me. I care less about pleasing the masses than avoiding pain, so I kept on squatting. So I think my many years of doing it helps me to squat more fully than most Westerners.