Author Topic: Autism explained  (Read 117594 times)

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Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2010, 02:50:13 am »
Limb regeneration might well work via science but not via diet!
Careful you might end up eating  ;) your words...
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2010, 11:08:17 am »
The trouble with your ludicrous claims is that mainstream scientists are fully convinced from the evidence that there is no justification for claiming that diet can cure  autistic symptoms. ....
There you go saying "cure" again. I didn't say "cure" and I cautioned against using that term from my very first post in the thread. You build more straw men than anyone I've ever encountered. Completely irrelevant to everything I've written here.

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The only people you can point to are proven charlatans like Dr Wakefield.
Wakefield? Where did I mention Wakefield (whose vaccine hypothesis I disagree with, BTW)? I pointed to Dr. Hyman--you're source!--and a colleague from her past.

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you still seem very confused and unable to grasp
Methinks the fox smells himself.

You conveniently ignored my questions. Let's try again:

Do you or don't you think that eliminating gluten and dairy is a generally healthy step (assuming those foods are not replaced with something more heinous)?

Should you have tried RPD even though you never really had Asperger's?

Do you or don't you believe that anyone who acquires sufficient education (such as from you) in how to do it right should try RPD?

Leaving entirely aside the question of whether the RPD helps with autism at all, isn't RPD a healthy diet in general for people with autism (and for most people) when done properly? To put it another way, will a sound, customized RPD cause an autistic person serious harm if they try it?


Here are some more questions:

Do you agree with Dr. Hyman that "Families will continue to try the diet, and that's OK"?

Do you agree with Dr. Hyman that "If you want to try GFCF diets with your autistic child, go ahead"?

Do you agree with Dr. Hyman on "the need for further scientific investigation into the role of diet in autism"?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:31:13 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2010, 05:48:28 pm »
Careful you might end up eating  ;) your words...
Hardly. The idea that a raw diet could lead to limb regeneration is so absurd that it's like believing that the Earth is flat.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2010, 06:00:02 pm »
There you go saying "cure" again. I didn't say "cure" and I cautioned against using that term from my very first post in the thread. You build more straw men than anyone I've ever encountered. Completely irrelevant to everything I've written here.

 You were stating that autism could be relieved to some extent by diet, whereas I pointed out that digestion/mood , which the diets improved, are not directly related to autism. So, implying  a partial cure is still appalling.
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Wakefield? Where did I mention Wakefield (whose vaccine hypothesis I disagree with, BTW)? I pointed to Dr. Hyman--you're source!--and a colleague from her past.

The loony fringe of the autism-cure movement to which you belong is a big fan of Dr Wakefield. The fact that he was proven wrong negates most of the ludicrous notions re autism "cures", so it is very relevant to mention his name.



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Do you or don't you think that eliminating gluten and dairy is a generally healthy step (assuming those foods are not replaced with something more heinous)?
  In a very general sense, it is a healthy step. For curing or relieving autism itself, such diets are a waste of time, as they merely focus on non-autistic issues like digestion etc.



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Should you have tried RPD even though you never really had Asperger's?

Do you or don't you believe that anyone who acquires sufficient education (such as from you) in how to do it right should try RPD?

The above is illogical as an rpd diet has nothing to do with asperger's. I simply chose the rpd diet as it solved a lot of my issues re chronic fatigue.

The various questions are so ridiculously similiar to "have you stopped beating your wife" type of questions, it's absurd.

First of all, Dr Hyman was merely qualifying her comments so as not to commit herself too much. No genuine scientists likes to state absolutes as that sounds too dogmatic, even in cases where there is no real evidence supporting a contrary view.

As for the autistic issues it's a red herring. Sure, it is acceptable to state that a rawpaleodiet can cure digestive-related disorders or decrease aging, but is totally false to suggest that a rawpalaeodiet can help with autism or mental retardation at birth or limb regeneration and such-like.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2010, 10:24:33 am »
The important point or question is actually not whether or not RPD "cures" autism or many other ailments. Obviously irreversible damage may be caused to the fetus during pregnancy because of poisoning of the mother by SAD, vaccines, drugs, heavy metal exposure etc etc at crucial steps of embryo development and this definitely cannot be "cured" actually in any way, just somewhat improved or allieviated.
Well stated, Alphagruis.

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The important point is rather whether or not RPD and consequent non exposure to modern medical or dental "care", harmful chemicals, vaccines etc  would have prevented essentially these ailments to appear initially.

And to this question the answer is most likely a definitive yes since as I already said the occurence of these conditions is extremely rare in primitive non civilized societies on traditional diets with no modern medical care or ubiquitous harmful chemicals and neurotoxins exposure.
But if Tyler's right about autism being purely genetic and about autism itself being impervious to potential effects from diet, then primitive societies should have no different real rate of autism. He has attributed any claims of autism beyond that caused by genes to trendiness, funding and the like. Do you have any evidence to support your counter-claim?

Tyler, for clarification, what is your definition of autism and the rest of the autism spectrum, and what symptoms are directly attributable to autism? What symptoms do you see as directly attributable to the other illnesses in the autism spectrum?

....It would be interesting, though if people on NG/NC diets had far fewer rates of autistic etc. children.
Does this mean that you are now willing to consider that autism might not be 100% genetic, or do you instead assume that any difference in real rates of autism must be solely due to genetic differences between populations? What evidence of autism rates among HGs have you used in developing your strongly held opinion of autism being purely genetic, if any? What do you estimate the real rate of autism among moderners to be? It would indeed be interesting to see how it compares to that among truly primitive peoples. How does the prevalence of autism among traditional primitive peoples compare to their modernized counterparts from the same gene pools?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 10:42:29 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2010, 06:39:27 pm »
Well stated, Alphagruis.
But if Tyler's right about autism being purely genetic and about autism itself being impervious to potential effects from diet, then primitive societies should have no different real rate of autism. He has attributed any claims of autism beyond that caused by genes to trendiness, funding and the like. Do you have any evidence to support your counter-claim?

Primitive societies by definition wouldn't allow autistic (or otherwise disabled) children to survive. They would have been abandoned early on to die in the wilderness as infants  or would simply have failed to thrive etc. So, it's a difficult proposition to prove such a thing. I once asked a scientist what the rate of birth-defects was among wild animals (ie on 100% raw diets) , but he said there wasn't any reliable data on the subject as those with birth-defects tend to die pretty quickly in infancy etc.

As for the trendiness issues/funding that's established fact:-

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=95

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dsm5-in-distress/201003/will-dsm5-contain-or-worsen-the-epidemic-autism



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Tyler, for clarification, what is your definition of autism and the rest of the autism spectrum, and what symptoms are directly attributable to autism? What symptoms do you see as directly attributable to the other illnesses in the autism spectrum?
 Autism is basically a brain-related  condition, so I definitely do not view physically-related conditions such as digestive disorders, mood-related issues to be connected to autism.
Quote
Does this mean that you are now willing to consider that autism might not be 100% genetic, or do you instead assume that any difference in real rates of autism must be solely due to genetic differences between populations? What evidence of autism rates among HGs have you used in developing your strongly held opinion of autism being purely genetic, if any? What do you estimate the real rate of autism among moderners to be? It would indeed be interesting to see how it compares to that among truly primitive peoples. How does the prevalence of autism among traditional primitive peoples compare to their modernized counterparts from the same gene pools?
As I pointed out above, it would be impossible to determine what the real rate of autistic peoples is in HGs. Any such sufferers would not likely survive long past infancy.

My view is that genetics and epigenetics do play a part in autism - maybe even something happening in the womb. What I disagree with is the absurd notion that autism can be cured or relieved after exiting the womb.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 12:12:47 am by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2010, 08:37:08 pm »
To change direction here a bit...
Ayurveda explains that indeed there are some actions that a mother may take which will affect the progeny and indeed may even skip generations and appear down the family tree one or two generations later. This is understood by modern investigation so no great surprise.

Also Ayurveda explains the process of procreation and that indeed when a child is conceived in relation to the days after menstruation, the child is affected in the sense of it's overall development. Also the fact of premature or very late childbirth is well known to affect the development of a child.

To this list we can add that the nourishment and activities of a mother can well affect the development of a child. I know a women who is a fitness freak and exercised right through the pregnancy. Her child was born very large but with obvious mental incapacity. The modern practice of dumping a child a short period after birth so as to go back to work I believe will also be shown by history as a blight no less destructive than the industrial revolution's excesses.

Many illnesses are well known due to alcohol and drug consumption. The list goes on and on for causes. I personally am starting to believe that eating cooked foods especially cooked on open fires such as bar-b-cueing will eventually be deemed as destructive. I also believe this will take a long time to be accepted for a variety of reasons although the internet may short-circuit that.

Having said all of this, just for a moment suspend the arguments for another way of looking at things. The Hindus and many other religious, etc. groups have long-standing beliefs about why we are here on earth. The theory goes that our actions create a result. (That's the definition of Karma) The result may be a number of things from desirable to non-desirable. You punch someone in the nose and either instantly or down the line someone does it back. Same with a smile. This Karma is like baggage. So some individuals may choose to be born with a physical incapacity such as autism etc in order to burn up their Karma quickly, maybe it is the last Karma they have prior to enlightenment. The whole idea behind knowing this is that they are doing the best they can with what they know and it is a best policy to show empathy not sympathy. They may be very advanced souls. You may be in their size 10s (shoes) the next time around.

If you get the chance I recommend reading "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Dr. Norman Doidge. It is an exploration of some amazing people (some are Allopathic Doctors) who by the use of various modalities, , have pioneered or taken to stratospheric levels the  idea that no brain or mental incapacity is incurable or impossible to rectify.
I listened to it on audiobook that I got from our wonderful local library, but you can get it on an inter-library loan, a download from your library if you are housebound or from audible.com or from the author etc.

In Canada the CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation made a documentary on it that covers the main bases. 44 minutes DVD  www.cbclearning.ca 1 866 999 3072 I also got that at the library.
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2010, 05:37:19 am »
Hoo boy, Tyler. You're still misunderstanding my views and points and not directly answering my questions. For example, I'm tired of having to repeat that I'm not making any cure claims.

I give up. It seems like autism is one of those emotional topics that causes you to focus on propagandizing and prevents you from trying to comprehend what the other person is saying. It's difficult to converse with someone when they won't make an effort to understand what you're trying to say. It's like trying to talk to a guy who's yelling into a megaphone with the volume set to maximum. You'll disagree with me, of course, and I doubt you're even aware of what you're doing at times like this--so I think it's more blindness O0 than malice. It's also much easier to defeat straw men than real arguments.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 06:00:08 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2010, 02:03:25 pm »
...and in case you contradict my saying you didn't answer some of my questions--I'll specify an example in your latest post where you didn't answer my question about what symptoms you see as directly attributable to autism and the other illnesses in the autism spectrum other than to vaguely mention that it's a "brain-related disorder" and then go on again in your broken-record way about what symptoms are NOT part of autism.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

alphagruis

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2010, 02:10:41 pm »

But if Tyler's right about autism being purely genetic and about autism itself being impervious to potential effects from diet, then primitive societies should have no different real rate of autism. He has attributed any claims of autism beyond that caused by genes to trendiness, funding and the like. Do you have any evidence to support your counter-claim?


I'll comment and try to answer soon, PaleoPhil. I'm bit busy by now.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2010, 02:43:08 pm »
...and in case you contradict my saying you didn't answer some of my questions--I'll specify an example in your latest post where you didn't answer my question about what symptoms you see as directly attributable to autism and the other illnesses in the autism spectrum other than to vaguely mention that it's a "brain-related disorder" and then go on again in your broken-record way about what symptoms are NOT part of autism.

Glutton for punishment!
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2010, 04:54:45 pm »
Hoo boy, Tyler. You're still misunderstanding my views and points and not directly answering my questions. For example, I'm tired of having to repeat that I'm not making any cure claims.

I give up. It seems like autism is one of those emotional topics that causes you to focus on propagandizing and prevents you from trying to comprehend what the other person is saying. It's difficult to converse with someone when they won't make an effort to understand what you're trying to say. It's like trying to talk to a guy who's yelling into a megaphone with the volume set to maximum. You'll disagree with me, of course, and I doubt you're even aware of what you're doing at times like this--so I think it's more blindness O0 than malice. It's also much easier to defeat straw men than real arguments.
The above is simply childish. You yourself previously tried to claim that if a rawpalaeodiet helped an autistic person to improve their digestive system or other condition not related to autism that then it was acceptable to claim that a rawpalaeodiet could help autistic people. This is a classic case of a false premise and illogic as it is deliberately misleading, implying that autistic people could have their actual autistic condition cured or resolved.

As for not directly answering your questions, I had already pointed out that a number of those questions were clearly pseud "have you stopped beating your wife-type questions, which are wholly dishonest(or simply irrelevant to the whole issue) and do not dignify an answer, therefore.

My reasons for this subject are pretty simple. Many people in the autism-cure-field have deliberately lied to vulnerable parents of autistic children, promising them either partial relief or a 100% cure of their autistic condition. This has been a really big issue in the UK, given Dr Wakefield's dodgy propagandising of the whole anti-vaccine quackery. Therefore, it is unnacceptable for us to promise snake-oil cures offering partial or full recovery from conditions which are not solvable through diet, such as autism or loss of limbs etc. I am fine with you suggesting that an RPD diet of parents might possibly reduce the number of autistic children in the next generation, as the science of epigenetics has shown that behaviours like smoking in grandparents can lead to increased rates of asthma in their grandchildren. But words like "possibly", "maybe" etc. should be used even then.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 05:04:02 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2010, 05:00:26 pm »
...and in case you contradict my saying you didn't answer some of my questions--I'll specify an example in your latest post where you didn't answer my question about what symptoms you see as directly attributable to autism and the other illnesses in the autism spectrum other than to vaguely mention that it's a "brain-related disorder" and then go on again in your broken-record way about what symptoms are NOT part of autism.
I have already provided ample data re links to show that the autism epidemic is a false one, involving a rediagnosis of people as autistic who were previously diagnosed as having different conditions, so that autistic diagnoses have gone up while diagnoses for other brain-related disorders have gone down.Read the links. There's a lot of info out there re the false autism epidemic.

As for the mention of autism as being "brain-related", that was self-evident - I was talking about an earlier topic where I pointed out that characteristics that have nothing to do with autistic-related mental behaviour, such as digestion, cannot be lumped together as part of the autistic condition. In other words, while many autistic children(or indeed any children) may very well benefit from improved digestion as a result of a rawpalaeodiet, a rawpalaeodiet cannot be said to help cure autistic people as such, as the actual condition of autism cannot be cured or relieved. Not difficult to understand.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2010, 12:38:14 am »

Glutton for punishment!
;D  And of course he went on further about what are NOT autism spectrum symptoms instead of answering the question of what ARE autism spectrum symptoms.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2010, 12:52:08 am »
;D  And of course he went on further about what are NOT autism spectrum symptoms instead of answering the question of what ARE autism spectrum symptoms.
That's not terribly clever. After all, we have specifically been talking , previously,  about things like digestive issues  which are clearly not autism-related. Sounds like you are deliberately  changing the subject. Relatively common autistic characteristics, such as some form of mental retardation etc. etc., self-evidently can't be cured via diet. To even suggest such is dishonest, sort of like claiming that the Earth is flat. Now, granted, minor issues might be  either temporarily or permanently relieved such as hand-flapping or OCD-related issues due to intensive training of sorts, but no self-respecting medical practitioner would claim that this was a cure or even a relief, merely a reduction of symptoms rather than relief of the main condition of autism. Autism is for life.

(Though, I'll grant that the "re-diagnosis" of people  as autistics, re the false autism "epidemic", has undoubtedly led to many people without any serious issues to be erroneously labelled autistic).

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

alphagruis

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2010, 03:15:43 am »

But if Tyler's right about autism being purely genetic and about autism itself being impervious to potential effects from diet, then primitive societies should have no different real rate of autism. He has attributed any claims of autism beyond that caused by genes to trendiness, funding and the like. Do you have any evidence to support your counter-claim?


There are actually only very very few well known "purely genetic" diseases. In such a rare disease a single gene coding for a specific enzyme has undergone a mutation that makes the relevant enzyme either less efficient or inactive in a major vital reaction path. Autism is certainly not yet demonstrated even remotely to be one of them but as in almost all maladies one observes a more or less strong correlation between the presence of specific natural gene variants and its occurence. Some genes variants or genome owners are more prone than others to become ill but this is not a genetic disease in the sense that genes are the cause of the maladies. Environmental changes or factors are in fact the real causes as for instance gluten intake in ceoliac disease.
In fact the belief that autism or many maladies are genetic in origin was common and even ubiquitous about 20 years ago but is now more and more abandoned and was linked initially to the central dogma of biology and "genetic program" picture of living organisms now shown to be wrong.
From this recent general evolution and the fact that not even a single specific genetic defect could be evidenced re autism as well as the recent overall trends in biology I think that Tyler is wrong re autism.
Yet, unfortunately I don't think there exist now ample statistical data about the rate of autism in primitive societies to confirm this. As I said before, I just got recently anecdotal evidence from my friends from Cameroun that this condition was essentially unknown up to now except in urban areas and people adopting western diet and way of life.   







     

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2010, 03:54:46 am »
OK, Tyler, it looks like these are they symptoms for autism spectrum disorders you've mentioned so far:

"some form of mental retardation"
hand-flapping
"OCD-related issues"

Did I miss any and would you like to add any more?

Thanks for the info Alphagruis. By coincidence, I've been interested in Cameroon and Ghana recently for a few reasons.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 04:10:50 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2010, 08:26:03 pm »
OK, Tyler, it looks like these are they symptoms for autism spectrum disorders you've mentioned so far:

"some form of mental retardation"
hand-flapping
"OCD-related issues"

Did I miss any and would you like to add any more?
I merely gave those as examples as mental retardation is a pretty important and rather common aspect of autism and the least likely to be solved through something like diet, while hand-flapping and OCD-related issues are merely minor side-effects of autism which an autistic person can be trained, over time, not to do. The changes to the brain are THE most significant aspect of autism, above all else, so any claims re cures or relief of autism would have to involve some form of regeneration of the brain - no such evidence exists. Case closed.

As for the issues re hunter-gatherers, first of all, documentation of such would be difficult to carry out - but, as I pointed out previously, HGs with serious conditions like schizophrenia or autism would not have been able to survive past infancy, as those tribes simply do not have the resources of a modern society re keeping such people alive long-term. Indeed, pretty much all societies prior to the birth-control pill had ways to eliminate flawed or unwanted offspring. I'm thinking of the old Roman practice of throwing infants into the Tiber, the Spartans leaving all their children(even healthy ones) out in the wild for 3 days to ensure only the healthy ones survived, and so on.

It is a simple fact, of course, that wild animals similiarly do routinely produce flawed offspring with genetic defects that mean they can't survive for long in the wild. These wild animals routinely live off 100% raw foods(if not living near urban areas, of course), yet they get these conditions anyway, not to mention non-inherited characteristics like cancer etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2010, 02:18:58 am »
Tyler here is a quote from an article that is pertinent to this discussion

“Genes are not Stalinist dictators,” said Dr. Barker, now at Oregon Health and Science University. “What they do, how they’re expressed, is conditional on the rest of the body. The human being is a product of a general recipe, and the specific nutrients you get or don’t get.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/health/research/17moose.html?_r=1
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2010, 02:27:41 am »
Geez, Tyler, you write like a politician speaks--lots of talk without directly answering the questions, though at least you're starting to partially answer.

Your answers are muddled, but I think you're saying that the only relevant symptoms for determining whether any environmental factor can affect autism at all are "changes to the brain", yes? If so, what are these "changes to the brain"? Are you saying that these brain changes should be the only criteria used in diagnosing autism or are there any other criteria you would add?

You have changed your labeling of these...

"some form of mental retardation"
hand-flapping
"OCD-related issues"

from "issues" to "side effects". What is the difference between illness "issues", illness "side effects" and illness symptoms? I work in the healthcare industry and I believe symptoms is the only clinical term among these in the context of diagnostic criteria. "Side effects" tends to be used to describe negative effects from treatments, not from the illnesses themselves and "issues" is a rather vague, nonclinical term that I've only seen physicians occasionally use when they haven't determined a diagnosis yet, or when using it as a broad or generic descriptor (as in "the patient has several endocrine issues including..."). If you don't like the term "symptoms", you can use "diagnostic criteria", as both these terms are recognized in the medical and scientific communities.

If autism is 100% genetic, then if we find any significant difference in rates between ANY populations that cannot be explained by genetics, not just HGs vs. moderners, this would undercut your hypothesis. So there's not necessarily any need to look to HGs to check for differences. If we find differences among neolithic traditional peoples like pastoralists and primitive/semi-traditional crop agriculturalists, or even between regions in the USA, that can't be completely explained by extremely early autism deaths or trendiness differences, that would also call into question the 100% genetic claim unless potentially explanatory gene differences are found, and the excuse that all the autistic HGs die off at an early age before outsiders can observe them would presumably be less of a factor among semi-modern and modern populations, if there's any evidence that it it's even a factor with HGs, which you haven't presented as yet.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 03:08:06 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Wolf

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2010, 02:29:44 pm »
Okay, I don't really know much of anything about autism, other than what I've read in this thread.  But it seems to me that what the argument going on here is that a raw/paleo or otherwise good diet may help with the symptoms one sees in autistic children.  It could reduce problems with digestion/mood, as Tyler said, which could reduce the symptoms of the autism and make it far more manageable, and easier to deal with, which SEEMS like it is relieving the symptoms of autism itself.  However, it actually does nothing for the actual condition of autism, instead it is similar to, say, someone getting a cold, and has the symptoms of a runny/stuffy nose, sore throat, and a cough (like the symptoms of arm flapping or OCD-related issues and other things that autistic children do) and then this person takes some Nyquil or other cold medicine (or changes to a different diet).  The symptoms of a runny/stuffy nose, sore throat, and cough (or the symptoms of arm flapping/ocd-related issues/other issues) all go away.  However, the actual cold did not go away (the autism itself has not gone away whatsoever) only the symptoms of the condition have gone away.  But still, you FEEL like the cold has gone away (or like the autism might be gone) but that doesn't mean that it isn't still there.  Sure, it's a great help, but it's not an actual cure or even partial cure.  I think that it where this argument is coming up from.

Not that I'm trying to get involved into the argument, as, like I said, I know nothing significant about autism, I'm trying trying to show another perspective of the argument from what I read to help those arguing to understand better.  If it doesn't help though, then just ignore everything I said, lol.
Hi, I'm 32, around 5'4" and ~124lb, no real significant health problems other than hyperventilating when running/exercising (that my doc said was because of the smog/asthma), fatigue, and really bad acne.
I'd preferably be a carnivore/very low carb, but I have had a very hard time finding grass-fed or even organic fats, organs, and marrow. I consume raw dairy, but I do not eat much vegetables.. however, I do love fruit.
I live with my dad, so I also have to sneak any raw meat eating.

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2010, 03:04:46 pm »
Thanks for the info Alphagruis. By coincidence, I've been interested in Cameroon and Ghana recently for a few reasons.

What strikes me very much is that the people from southern equatorial Cameroon I know of , about twenty of them in their thirties or fourties, all of them grown up in Cameroon countryside on traditional diet and only recently moved to France, are 100% dental cavities free with very nice teeth. Their diet, besides raw food such as fruit or dried meat and insects or shrimps included as staples tubers prepared in various ways and generally cooked as well as cooked fish, eggs and meat. But all eggs, meat or fish was either free range grass fed or wild. There seems however to be a clear cut tendency towards overweight in ageing people possibly linked to the fairly high cooked tubers intake.

 Food for thought that reminds me of our similar former Weston Price controversy with Tyler ;)  

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2010, 05:58:12 pm »
Paleeophil, I'm afraid your "interpretations" are themselves hopelessly, hypocritically muddled,. For one thing, differences between different  regional areas are extremely likely. For example, incest(cousin/cousin marriage and even, in some cases, relationships between closer relatives, is much more common in SE Asia, which results in higher levels of birth-defects, so it is possible that autism rates are higher over there. Then again, autism diagnoses in poorer countries would be far less prevalent than in richer countries like the US, given lack of sufficient access to doctors etc. There are other confounding factors. For example, some US states have far better state funding for autism than others, which means that parents of autistic children are highly motivated to move to certain States, thus making the whole business pointless re determining which regions have higher rates of autism.

I did not refer to mental retardation as a side-effect. The hand-flapping/ocd-related issues are a far more minor trait and are behavioural-related. I was simply distinguishing them from more permanent aspects of autism, such as mental retardation, as the former minor issues can be  easily removed via training.

And I stand by what I said re HGs inevitably not surviving past early infancy if they are found to suffer from serious conditions like autism. Plus, the fact that even some of  the offspring wild animals have all sorts of birth-defects despite living off 100% raw, natural diets, means that a rawpalaeodiet cannot by itself solve certain birth-defects.

As for changes in the brains of autistic children there's plenty of scientific data on the web that you can check out yourself such as this etc.:-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040323074016.htm

The point is that the inherent nature of autism is derived from changes in the brain. So any reported cures/relief re autism need to show that they regenerate the brain or whatever. Now sorting out minor issues such as hand-flapping may well help integrate autistics into society, but it does nothing to cure or relieve their actual autistic nature.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Hans89

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2010, 07:04:54 pm »
Fortunately for me, the various conspiracy-theory-related sites re autism are considered absolutely laughable by most scientists,

... as is RPD. I'll never understand how you can be so close-minded towards anything outside of the scientific mainstream while at the time advocating eating raw rotten meat.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2010, 07:14:56 pm »
Paleeophil, I'm afraid your "interpretations" are themselves hopelessly, hypocritically muddled,. For one thing, differences between different  regional areas are extremely likely. For example, incest(cousin/cousin marriage and even, in some cases, relationships between closer relatives, is much more common in SE Asia, which results in higher levels of birth-defects, so it is possible that autism rates are higher over there. Then again, autism diagnoses in poorer countries would be far less prevalent than in richer countries like the US, given lack of sufficient access to doctors etc. There are other confounding factors. For example, some US states have far better state funding for autism than others, which means that parents of autistic children are highly motivated to move to certain States, thus making the whole business pointless re determining which regions have higher rates of autism.

I did not refer to mental retardation as a side-effect. The hand-flapping/ocd-related issues are a far more minor trait and are behavioural-related. I was simply distinguishing them from more permanent aspects of autism, such as mental retardation, as the former minor issues can be  easily removed via training.

And I stand by what I said re HGs inevitably not surviving past early infancy if they are found to suffer from serious conditions like autism. Plus, the fact that even some of  the offspring wild animals have all sorts of birth-defects despite living off 100% raw, natural diets, means that a rawpalaeodiet cannot by itself solve certain birth-defects.

As for changes in the brains of autistic children there's plenty of scientific data on the web that you can check out yourself such as this etc.:-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040323074016.htm

The point is that the inherent nature of autism is derived from changes in the brain. So any reported cures/relief re autism need to show that they regenerate the brain or whatever. Now sorting out minor issues such as hand-flapping may well help integrate autistics into society, but it does nothing to cure or relieve their actual autistic nature.

TD You are getting in deeper ;) Now autism is caused by incest and incest is rampant in SE Asia. hmmmmm
"I'm afraid your "interpretations" are themselves hopelessly, hypocritically muddled"
If I told you once I told you 1000 times Don't Exagerate"
"Then again, autism diagnoses in poorer countries would be far less prevalent than in richer countries like the US, given lack of sufficient access to doctors etc."
One of the problems cited in the US owing to it's user pay medical system is the lack of access to medical service by the poorer. I think if you look at the statistics in the US there is a huge section of the population that has no health insurance and indeed the people with the money in the US are fighting very hard to keep it that way. That is why health care reform int he US is so slow. Everybody is afraid that someone else will get their hands on their stash. Living in England you forget that your country long ago passed over that bridge.
"parents of autistic children are highly motivated to move to certain States"
Now you are going to have to prove and explain that one.
"And I stand by what I said re HGs inevitably not surviving past early infancy if they are found to suffer from serious conditions like autism."
Again I would be fascinated by your proof of that one.
Nowhere in your link was there any reference to the "fact" you espouse that it is impossible, (and all the other extreme language you are fond of) that diet can have an effect on autism whether by changing the health of the mother or the autist. The people in that link were simply spending the 400 million that they had to study various diseases.
Cheers
Al

 

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