Author Topic: Autism explained  (Read 117609 times)

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Offline raw-al

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Autism explained
« on: August 14, 2010, 08:55:27 am »
This link is of a girl with autism who it is discovered is able to communicate with a computer and is able to explain her autistic activities to everyone. Turns out she is not a particularly unusual teenager except for her lack of ability to communicate verbally and her incessant movement which she explains.

How this relates to a raw diet is that AV speaks quite extensively on his autism in his younger days and how he overcame it with diet which eventually led to the raw paleo diet. This girl proves that autism is an issue that is not really about mental health but more of a physical issue. Quite an eye opener.

http://www.wimp.com/autisticgirl/
Cheers
Al

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 10:42:00 am »
i thought this very touching!  i used to work with autistic children, and it was really sad sometimes.  one can see life and thought processing in their eyes, but communication is lost.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 10:47:02 am »
Ioanna

Have you ever heard of anything like this before?

I sent the link to a child psychiatrist that I know well. Am anxious for his response. I have an acquaintance whose child is autistic.
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Al

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 11:27:47 am »
no, i've never heard of this before.  the children i worked with were much younger though, i'm not sure they could even write, let alone the maturity to be so expressive. hmmm... now i can think of one boy who was a little older that might have eventually been able to get to that.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 05:24:46 pm »
AV's claims are often controversial and this autism claim is one of the least likely ones, to put it mildly as autism cannot be cured, being genetic in origin. Therefore this topic is moved to the hot topics forum.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 07:22:13 pm »
Tyler,
Sorry for putting it in the wrong forum,
After a bit of looking around I noticed that the different forums are a bit more organized than I thought they were. I thought that raw paleo was about AV stuff, along with that of others, but now I see that AV has his own area. That is my primary focus actually. I do not necessarily believe every word he says as some of it sounds a bit fantastic, but I have to give him his due and say he comes up with off the wall stuff that tends to pan out.

I have to suspend my judgments when I read or listen to his stuff owing to his speaking style. As anyone who studies psychology knows, adults were once children and children are affected by awesome forces from their caregivers and their environment which causes them to act or in this case talk in ways that can indeed belie their underlying incredible abilities such as in his case to look outside the box. I thus tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

This girl clearly is autistic and she is clearly communicating with others and the term genetic while it may or may not be valid has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is concerning the fact that a person who has been accepted as being in a certain medical category but has somehow smashed through the glass ceiling of an accepted theory of what we always thought was possible, somewhat in the same fashion as other pioneers in medical science who have given incredible hope to others and opened up an entire vista upon which to view the world, such as Helen Keller. Previously I and no doubt most people thought of autists as being without cognitive or relational faculties other than say instinctual.

You suggest that "to put it mildly as autism cannot be cured, being genetic in origin." I think that is one of those statements like the one that the head of IBM who said that there is no market for personal computers or the other naysayers who generally tend to eat either a paleo or cooked version of crow.

This is huge. If you have ever been around kids with autistic behaviour it cannot help but affect you.

The relationship to the diet is that AV claims that he was there and he dragged himself out as I recall thanks to the ministrations of a helpful nurse and his path which eventually led him to the diet that he now espouses. Looking to the future I see this as another brick in the wall to giving credence to diet and specifically a raw diet as being the panacea to this issue and most likely a host of others.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 12:10:23 am »
AV has made outrageous claims re having cured himself of a 1,000 mythical diseases, most of which are not even necessarily linked with each other, so hardly can be considered reliable re such absurdly unlikely claims such as having cured himself of autism.

As for the autism claims, it is an established scientific  fact that autism cannot be cured, and is of genetic origin. This reminds me of the quack, Weston-Price, who ridiculously claimed that a Down's Syndrome patient was temporarily cured of Down's Syndrome after some surgery etc.
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Offline djr_81

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 12:49:40 am »
As for the autism claims, it is an established scientific  fact that autism cannot be cured, and is of genetic origin.
If not cured how about greatly ameliorated? There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence out there about the omission of grains (gluten) and dairy leading to great strides in the every day functionality of autists. I feel this points to the thought that diet, if not a direct cause, is definitely an exacerbator of Autism.
Example website, of many, brought up on Google.
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 12:54:40 am »
Sure there have been cases where some digestive-related symptoms of autistic children were removed/reduced , and no doubt removal of certain digestive-related issues could result in an improvement in mood and the like, but the non-gluten/non-casein diet hasn't been truly successful re removing the actual autistic condition.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 05:00:07 am »
Dr Moulder describes autism from vaccinations as stroke victims and shows it conclusively in pictures.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 05:54:57 am »
Autism is a hack quack term that describes a type of brain damage that manifest itself in a number of mental afflictions.

Its a spectrum disorder which means some cases are severe and others are mild, perhaps some manifestations are so mild that they aren't ever diagnosed.

My uncle Scott was 10 months old in 1967, he was injected with diptet, days later he began to cry constantly and was never right after that, he had severe behavioral problems and he was always a little off, but because it was before doctors stated calling brain damage autism he was never proprely diagnosed.( my grandmother swore it was the shot, she is a nurse and highly intelligent, (I believe her)

Were do you drawl the line between autism and what is natural stupidity.
I have seen the blank look of those afflicted its truly horrible

I believe that milder forms of autism are often ignored or called something else like ADHD. It is a hidden epidemic that in most people my only manifest as childish stupidity and listlessness.

Its a bigger problem than is being portrayed,1 in 60 boys has significant brain damage{autism} I wonder what is the number of those only mildly afflicted.

My bet is its cause by brain eating bio weapon's
It is my gut feeling that this has been designed to keep highly intelligent people from developing the higher states of consciousness which would to break free from the tyranny we are being born into.

Its a way to poke out the third eye.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 06:02:51 am by sabertooth »
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 08:48:53 am »
hmmmm.... "a thousand different mythical diseases. Might wanna get a blood check, you might be related. : )

"As for the autism claims, it is an established scientific  fact that autism cannot be cured, and is of genetic origin."

Would you care to give us the proof of that statement. That's quite a claim that a medical condition is incurable. Heck, may as well close down all those silly research facilities.

Sure there have been cases where some digestive-related symptoms of autistic children were removed/reduced , and no doubt removal of certain digestive-related issues could result in an improvement in mood and the like, but the non-gluten/non-casein diet hasn't been truly successful re removing the actual autistic condition.
So to summarize are you now saying that a dietary shift may be useful in an unsubstantial way?

In the brief period that I was doing clinics with Ayurveda I saw patients with serious diseases that Allopathic medicine simply gave up on or handed them useless drugs. One girl with amenorrhea simply needed to give up her exercise regime which was aggravating her. Another guy with asthma simply needed dietary modifications to keep himself drug free and symptom free. I am not advertising for this modality, just making a point that since little is known about a topic there is no need to make the horizons smaller than they are.

It is not important whether or not AV is making it up as much as whether it is true/possible.

Genetics can be used to explain away just about anything because you are obviously constituted from the sum of your parents parts ie the sperm and the egg which are a microcosm of the originators state of emotion and health at the moment of conception. So saying something is genetic is pointless.

So is my mother's stomach cancer genetic? I have avoided it because Ayurveda has shown me a proper dietary direction to go and that combined with eating raw has allowed me to avoid this pitfall.

I have seen some wild and crazy cures affected by some wild and crazy methodologies.

The video fascinated me in the sense that this girl has said the issue that she is struggling with is related to a sensory overload. That's why she moves continuously. In Ayurvedic terms she is unable to digest or metabolize the sensory perceptions. Sort of like when you walk into a large city garbage dump. Your nostrils and eyes are in sensory overload and cannot digest what you see and smell and likely you'll end up vomitting or feeling really bad, or when you smell a rose, you instantly metabolize the sensory perception and your body feels suddenly wide open, alive and great.
Sabertooth,
One of my exes relatives had a child that was normal in every way until someone sprayed her with some kind of bug repellent. She never spoke from then on.
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 09:10:24 am »
As for the autism claims, it is an established scientific  fact that autism cannot be cured, and is of genetic origin. ...
It would be wise to take care not to give a one-sidedly negative view without also revealing the positive side of the story, as one could discourage some people from trying potentially beneficial dietary/nutritional therapy. Those initial words seemed to suggest that autism is purely genetic, whereas it is now widely acknowledged among scientists as having an environmental component:
Quote
"Previous studies looking at a narrower population of youngsters have suggested that as much as 40% of the rise in autism cases might be explained by broader diagnostic definitions and by heightened awareness of the condition. But that still leaves 60% of the increase unaccounted for. "Most scientists believe there is something more than just awareness and a broadening definition that is responsible for the rise," says Dr. Gary Goldstein, president of the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore. "We are seeing some fraction of the increase that is probably due to more cases of autism."

So, what is driving the soaring numbers? While recent studies have highlighted genetic changes that might be responsible, some experts caution that such changes happen over time, far too slowly to explain the recent rise in autism. "When you see an increase like this, you have to think it's an environmental issue," says Dr. Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health and chair of the NIH's interagency autism coordinating committee.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1948842,00.html#ixzz0wdD08EnZ

And diet is acknowledged by scientists as one of many possible factors:
Quote
"There is so much stuff out there, whether it is diet or infection," says Goldstein. "We could make a list but it's got thousands of things on it." (ibid)

Fortunately, the initial extreme language was moderated somewhat here:
Sure there have been cases where some digestive-related symptoms of autistic children were removed/reduced , and no doubt removal of certain digestive-related issues could result in an improvement in mood and the like, but the non-gluten/non-casein diet hasn't been truly successful re removing the actual autistic condition.

I think where people like Tyler tend to flip out is over terms like "cure" and "overcame it" that seem to suggest a complete cure. I try to be cautious and tend to talk in terms of reductions in symptoms and perhaps potential "remission" in some cases, rather than promise anyone a cure, as Aajonus seems to. Dietary therapy appears to be very promising in treating the autism spectrum (for example, Ray Audette of NeanderThin reported an autistic boy's success story after Ray responded to the boy's mother's plea for help). Another caution to consider is that even if dietary therapy eliminated all symptoms, some people would say it's not a true "cure" because eating some of the offending foods would likely cause some amount of relapse.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 04:41:02 pm »
The claim that autism is just a "genetic disease", an old fashioned dodgy concept BTW, is anyway completely at odds with the dramatic increase of its occurence in western countries such as the US during very recent decades.

Autism is in fact most likely an emergent condition from poisoning during pregnancy closely related to the complex interplay of recent dietary changes and steady worsening because of ever increased processing, massive use of harmful chemicals in professional or everyday life and household, massive use of amalgam dental fillings and other neurotoxins, drugs, antibiotics etc etc since the 1960's in "developed" countries.
 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2010, 06:16:14 pm »
The big problem re autism is that there are so many dodgy lies sustaining the myth. The biggest lie of all is that cases of autism are increasing rapidly. The truth is that the only reason why diagnoses of autism are increasing is because autism is seen as "trendy" and therefore receives far more money than other conditions. The result is that parents are absolutely desperate to have their children diagnosed as autistic so as to get some part of the funds, and, as a direct result, multitudes of people have been re-diagnosed falsely as "autistic" when, in the past, they would have been diagnosed as having completely different conditions.

As for the claims re diet and autism, these are not proven, and indeed the results thereof, have been very mild at best. Like I said, non-dairy/non-grain diets have been useful re improving mood-related or digestive-related issues and the like among the autistic but there hasn't been any cures involved for obvious reasons, as autism is genetic-related(though I don't discount the notion that autism might be epigenetic-related).
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 06:28:45 pm »
The data is being cooked on all sides of the argument, but the truth is that autism is non existant in non vaccinated populations, of coarse most non vaccinated people also live in less polluted environments, so there is a definite need for double blind studies using vaccinated and non vaccinated test humans under more controlled conditions. Such a study wont be done by an established medical research organization, because the truth would most likely prove my gut feeling that vaccines are the major cause of autism?brain damage occurring today,thus pointing out the criminality of the whole medical establishments policy on vaccination.

The white washing of atrocity must be exposed,damnit
Where are the funds for this crucial research going,
Iraq, Afghanistan, research on chemotherapy.
One in 60 boys is being brain damaged,one in 150 girls, and many others have milder damage , I think this should trump most other issues.

I also suspect that epigenics may be a factor, but there isn't any studies that can point to the how or why this could be causing brain damage in developing humans.

Vaccines may alter genetic expression that can often be misinterpreted as faulty genes
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 06:39:20 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2010, 07:06:36 pm »
I'm afraid that autism occured even in the eras well before vaccinations. It's ridiculous to suggest that autism appeared out of nowhere in modern times.
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alphagruis

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2010, 07:37:24 pm »
Autism's increase of occurence is obviously not just a matter of better diagnosis  ;D

http://brightminds.wordpress.com/2007/02/08/us-cdc-states-autism-more-prevalent-than-previously-thought/

http://www.wellsphere.com/autism-autism-spectrum-article/autism-epidemic-genetic-autism-myth-finally-busted-at-the-us-senate/1190257

Most cases of autism do not actually need MD to diagnose them, they are so obvious, anyone can see the trouble.

And indeed in non "developed" countries occurence is near zero but increases rapidly when western lifestyle with its diet and subsequent dental and medical care, hygiene chemicals etc is adopted. I've checked this very recently with my friends from Cameroun countryside. Same for dental cavities in agreement with Price's observation. People grown up there in a traditional way in their villages have generally strictly ZERO cavities (BTW in spite of a diet including cooked tubers, meat and fish) and autism is only known of recently in urban area people with western type lifestyles.  

Moreover autism occurence increases rapidly with the age of the mother which is a clear cut sign that it is a matter of poisoning of the baby in womb.

Vaccinations are certainly one but only one among many other environmental factors causing autism. I suspect the mothers amalgam dental fillings during pregnancy for instance to be a more important likely culprit  

Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2010, 08:01:44 pm »
Here is a report from the Canadian Parliamentary Library. Canada like Britain and France have a free medical system.

I recommend you read the entire report as it is not that long but here is one section;
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0593-e.htm

"ASDs are 3 to 4 times more common among boys than girls.  There is neither a known cause nor a known cure.

INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF DIAGNOSED CHILDREN

According to Statistics Canada, the number of “persons with autism or any other developmental disorder” was just above 69,000 in 2003, or about 1 in 450 Canadians. ( 8 )  The rate seems to be much higher for school children.  According to Autism Society Canada, there has been a steep rise in the number of school children with the disorder in the three provinces that monitor this increase with reliable statistics:  Saskatchewan, Quebec and British Columbia.(9)  Preliminary results of an epidemiological study conducted at Montreal Children’s Hospital in the 2003-2004 school year found a prevalence rate of 0.68% (or 1 per 147).  While higher than the rate that was reported in the literature 15 years ago, this prevalence rate is consistent with other recent studies in the United States and United Kingdom, where rates of around 0.6% (or 1 per 167) have been reported.

The reasons for this apparent increase are difficult to pinpoint.  The recent figures may be driven by a rise in the condition among young children or, alternatively, by a series of other factors, including a broadening of the definition of autism, increased public awareness, improved symptom recognition and diagnosis, and improved survey methodology.  A recent study in the United Kingdom published in the American Journal of Psychiatry provides some support for the latter hypothesis, but its results will need to be replicated in other contexts before they can be deemed conclusive.(10) "
Cheers
Al

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2010, 08:49:25 pm »
I'm afraid that autism occur ed even in the eras well before vaccinations. It's ridiculous to suggest that autism appeared out of nowhere in modern times.

I am very aware of this fact

did you also know that live measles virus can be cultured from the brains of most autistic people, even though they never contacted the disease, It was injected into them through live virus vaccination.

Of course there were cases of viral brain damage before vaccination, what I am saying is that now these condition are being artificially created in much higher percentages of people than ever before
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/10/981031181106.htm

This is being done by design

Herpes 6 and measles don't naturally infest the brain of infants, its a one two punch crafted by the eugenicist scum that think they own us;it  culls the development of exceptional minds.

Even if it isn't intentional, then it is just being done out of ignorance and bad science,

Either way it needs to be looked into more openly and I am only suggesting my personal view.  

Herpes 6 and measles trigger auto immune anti bodies against brain tissue that and results in brain damage, that's a fact

my own Brother contacted ITP from a measles shot had a severe auto immune reaction and I think it damaged his brain although he is not autistic,

This is a very personal subject to me
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 09:17:04 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline wodgina

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2010, 08:53:57 pm »
Yeah you don't need to be a doctor to notice autism. It's obviously epigenetics as the brightest star says LOL (nearly as bad as my username) says older mothers are much more likely to give birth to autistic kids.

shit diet, exposure to toxins, damaged eggs, damaged sperm.



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Offline raw-al

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2010, 09:44:14 pm »
The video fascinated me in the sense that this girl has said the issue that she is struggling with is related to a sensory overload. That's why she moves continuously. In Ayurvedic terms she is unable to digest or metabolize the sensory perceptions. Sort of like when you walk into a large city garbage dump. Your nostrils and eyes are in sensory overload and cannot digest what you see and smell and likely you'll end up vomitting or feeling really bad, or when you smell a rose, you instantly metabolize the sensory perception and your body feels suddenly wide open, alive and great.
Following along with my previous reasoning (for anyone that understands Ayurveda) a Pitta/Vata pacifying diet would probably be appropriate.
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2010, 11:23:55 pm »
The big problem re autism is that there are so many dodgy lies sustaining the myth. The biggest lie of all is that cases of autism are increasing rapidly. The truth is that the only reason why diagnoses of autism are increasing is because autism is seen as "trendy" and therefore receives far more money than other conditions.
Actually, that is the biggest lie--blaming all of the increase on trendiness, funding and better reporting and tracking. See my post above in which I addressed this myth and refuted it, and others have since added more sources countering the myth. It had some traction decades ago, but as tracking of autism improved and the rates of autism continued to increase--even in recent years--the myth that all the increase is due to trendiness, funding and better reporting and tracking lost credibility in the scientific community and scientists are increasingly looking for other explanations. Now those factors are seen as just part of the puzzle, not the full explanation.

Quote from: TylerDurden
as autism is genetic-related(though I don't discount the notion that autism might be epigenetic-related).
Autism is genetic-related and epigentic-related, but evidence has demonstrated that it CANNOT be purely genetic (again, see above) and diet is one of the primary factors that are identified as influencing epigentics, so the potential for dietary therapy is in no way refuted by this statement--on the contrary, the epigenetic link supports dietary therapy potential, as people in this forum have been trying to explain to you. I get the sense that you're not reading any of the evidence folks like myself have been providing to you on autism, epigenetics, and potential environmental factors like diet/nutrition.

You've frequently discounted the ability of the RPD to help at all with a number of illnesses, so I'm curious as to what illnesses/disorders you DO think can be helped by RPD other than obesity, anxiety, chronic fatigue, and insomnia (which I think you acknowledge, but correct me if I err)? And I don't mean just complete cures forever--I mean any illnesses/disorders that you think that RPD can substantially help with in any way.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 11:52:28 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 12:56:37 am »
Autism's increase of occurence is obviously not just a matter of better diagnosis  ;D


 I didn't suggest that the increases of autism diagnoses was the result of better diagnosis. I pointed out what is now well-known that the number of autism diagnoses has risen considerably(along with an equivalent reduction in diagnoses of other conditions) purely because autism has a much larger financial support re research/funding etc. so that parents of such children are desperate to get an autism diagnosis for their children and so autism consultants are more willing to falsely "re-diagnose" people as autistic.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 04:37:56 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Autism explained
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 01:06:36 am »
Actually, that is the biggest lie--blaming all of the increase on trendiness, funding and better reporting and tracking. See my post above in which I addressed this myth and refuted it, and others have since added more sources countering the myth. It had some traction decades ago, but as tracking of autism improved and the rates of autism continued to increase--even in recent years--the myth that all the increase is due to trendiness, funding and better reporting and tracking lost credibility in the scientific community and scientists are increasingly looking for other explanations. Now those factors are seen as just part of the puzzle, not the full explanation.
Autism is genetic-related and epigentic-related, but evidence has demonstrated that it CANNOT be purely genetic (again, see above) and diet is one of the primary factors that are identified as influencing epigentics, so the potential for dietary therapy is in no way refuted by this statement--on the contrary, the epigenetic link supports dietary therapy potential, as people in this forum have been trying to explain to you. I get the sense that you're not reading any of the evidence folks like myself have been providing to you on autism, epigenetics, and potential environmental factors like diet/nutrition.

Actually, your conspiracy-theory-related notions are the biggest lies of all.It has been pointed out, time and again, that autism diagnoses-rates have risen while similiar other conditions have fallen re diagnoses-rates. Fortunately for me, the various conspiracy-theory-related sites re autism are considered absolutely laughable by most scientists, given the severe lack of rigorous scientific data they have. As for claims re diet and autism, I have myself pointed out that they have limited benefits for autism sufferers(that is, they do provide some minor benefits re digestion and even mood, but don't cure the actual condition of autism). And I've read all the usual nonsense re vaccines/autism/Dr Wakefield etc., and the evidence supporting it was always highly flawed at best. All I can say is that I am very glad this is in the hot topics forum(our "rubbish bin") as such ridiculous threads make rawpaleoforum look really bad.


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You've frequently discounted the ability of the RPD to help at all with a number of illnesses, so I'm curious as to what illnesses/disorders you DO think can be helped by RPD other than obesity, anxiety, chronic fatigue, and insomnia (which I think you acknowledge, but correct me if I err)? And I don't mean just complete cures forever--I mean any illnesses/disorders that you think that RPD can substantially help with in any way.
I am not a fan of absurd claims that genetic illnesses can be cured. if we don't put a stop to this sort of nonsense, we will end up with fools claiming that an RPD diet can cure haemophilia, AIDS, ruptured appendixes, Down's Syndrome and even death from natural causes(William has already suggested such re mention of palaeo era!) etc etc.

We therefore need to be a lot more sceptical re the kind of 100s of extreme claims that AV has made.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 04:38:53 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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