Author Topic: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?  (Read 9377 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?

Brian Peskin ( www.brianpeskin.com ) says:
Quote
Your tissues require a higher level of “parent” omega 6 to “parent” omega 3 (1:1 up to 4:1 is ideal in a supple-
ment), no fish oil supplement provides this ratio. Fish oil contains almost all omega 3 derivatives and barely any
omega 6 at all.

Brian recommends ridiculous supplements for his "parent" omega oils which to my mind is just RAW FAT.

He may have a thing because he claims experiments with people supplementing with his recommended ratio, plaques in heart disease have been reversed and he claims his recent test shows he has zero score.

What I'm thinking is how do we measure how much omega 3 vs omega 6 raw fats are we eating?

From what sources?

Is there a lookup table guide?

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Offline Josh

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 05:08:25 pm »
You can use the US nutrition database

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

or one of the sites that seems to be based on it like

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2

They don't have information for example on grass fed suet...but do surprisingly have raw caribou bone marrow...so you can guess.

No idea what the optimum ratio is. I just think now that if I eat grass fed beef fat it will be 'pretty good' and that's ok for me.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 05:46:02 pm »
Hmm.... seems raw beef fat meets the omega 6 to omega 3 ratio being recommended by Brian Peskin.

The raw duck eggs are too high in omega 3.

While the raw chicken eggs (supermarket) are too high in omega 6.

Raw tuna is extremely high in omega 3 and low in omega 6.

My favorite swordfish is also too high in omega 3.

Worth experimenting!
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Offline kurite

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2010, 06:14:08 pm »
I wouldn't worry about it to mcuh, issues like this seem to balance out when raw paleo.
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Offline yuli

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 03:27:14 am »
download and install cron-o-meter... ( http://spaz.ca/cronometer/ )
its got the nutritional details for grass-fed meats, farmed vs wild, and most other raw foods, it also measures by portions, very useful software

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 06:55:24 am »
download and install cron-o-meter... ( http://spaz.ca/cronometer/ )
its got the nutritional details for grass-fed meats, farmed vs wild, and most other raw foods, it also measures by portions, very useful software
Cron-o-meter is regularly incorrect when it comes to omega 3 vs omega 6, ive checked it several times showing it was dead wrong.
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Offline yuli

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 07:11:16 am »
Cron-o-meter is regularly incorrect when it comes to omega 3 vs omega 6, ive checked it several times showing it was dead wrong.

Which items are dead wrong? I'd need to know that for my own good...
It says 300g grass-fed raw beef has 0.5g omega6 and 0.3g omega3...a ratio 1.7/1 ...obviously this will vary within cows..

Offline kurite

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« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 07:50:53 am by kurite »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 08:40:57 am »
I'm thinking if Brian Peskin's research of raw fat ratios apply to his blended seed oils only.

Since we raw paleos get more of our fat from ANIMAL sources, then maybe his ratios don't apply so strictly, or that our bodies know more what to do with raw animal fat.

It would be useful if some raw paleo person would be a volunteer guinea pig to make the same heart scan imaging as Brian Peskin did and got the same zero result.

Someone who has heart occlusion, went on raw paleo and then measured his occlusion again.

Brian says the heart scan imaging was of course harmful with lots of x-rays bombarding you, but he just had to prove his point.
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Offline yuli

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 10:53:25 am »
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10525/2

Both nutrition-data site and cron-o-meter say they get their data from USDA food database.
You can go directly to USDA food database and search for the food there and check for yourself:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I have heard people complain about nutritiondata as well BTW, the cron-o-meter will tell you exactly which release/version of USDA database its using and regularly updates its software. On the nutritiondata site I see no info telling me when they updated their food database and to what version...however...

Lets compare values for "RAW, GROUND, GRASS-FED BEEF" at 100g at the 3 sites:

Nutritiondata values:
Saturated fat - 5.3 g
Monounsaturated - 4.8 g
Polyunsaturated Fat - 0.5 g
Total Omega-3 fatty acids - 88 mg (0.088 g) (approx 0.1g)

Cron-o-meter values:
Saturated fat - 5.3 g
Monounsaturated - 4.8 g
Polyunsaturated Fat - 0.5 g
Total Omega-3 fatty acids - 0.1 g

Official USDA site values:
Saturated fat - 5.3 g
Monounsaturated - 4.8 g
Polyunsaturated Fat - 0.5 g
Total Omega-3 fatty acids - 88 mg (0.088 g) (approx 0.1g) ==> ALA (0.071) DPA (0.016) DHA (0.000) EPA (0.001)

As you can see the 3 comparisons are the same except cron-o-meter round off to the nearest 0.1g, so instead of 0.088g omega-3 it writes 0.1g ... since values are not exact even in the USDA the rounding off doesn't bother me. Otherwise they both use the same source and are the same really.

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 11:21:33 am »
I stand corrected.
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Offline yuli

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 11:28:30 am »
I stand corrected.

LOL, actually I just wanted to make sure myself ^^

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2010, 11:40:22 pm »
...He may have a thing because he claims experiments with people supplementing with his recommended ratio, plaques in heart disease have been reversed and he claims his recent test shows he has zero score.
For some reason the only thing that seems to get reported about Brian Peskin in this forum is that he warns against too much omega 3 fats and recommends an omega 6 supplement (that a company he consults for sells). Since this is the second time I've seen him referenced in this forum, I checked him out a bit and found that there are other things he has written that I'm curious about your opinion on, GS.

Brian Peskin reports that he eats "lots of SATURATED fat" and eats "few fruits or vegetables (just 1-serving a day (if even that) vs. the “expert’s” recommendation of 5)." What do you think of this? (Source: http://brianpeskin.com/peskinMDCTscan.pdf)

What's your take on this reader testimonial of Peskin's that he provides as evidence of the effectiveness of his advice? -- "Since cutting the fruit and other carbs as per your suggestions, what a difference to my energy levels!" http://www.brianpeskin.com/order24-hr-diet.html

What do you think of his claim that if you examine the digestive systems of omnivores, carnivores, and herbivores, "There is no mistaking that Omnivores and Carnivores are closely identical, while Herbivores are so vastly different as to be almost alien by comparison." (http://www.brianpeskin.com/BP.com/e-newsletter.html)

Did you know that it was recently discovered that the only essential omega 6 fatty acid is one that comes from animal brain and muscle tissue, arachidonic acid, whereas the omega 6 FAs that Peskin markets that come from plant sources (flaxseed and safflower oils) were found to be unessential, and that the omega 3 fatty acid, DHA, which is plentiful in the fish oil and cod liver oil that Peskin condemns and is again found in animal brains (noticing a trend here?), was found to be essential? (The essentiality of arachidonic acid and docosahexaenoic acid, 2009 http://thepaleodiet.com/pdf/flaxseed_oil/The%20essentialityofarachidonicacidanddocosahexaenoicacid.pdf, "AA and DHA alone may be the true EFAs.")

Are you concerned at all by the following?

"Texas Attorney General's Complaint against Brian Peskin," http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/Peskin/complaint.html
"On April 26, 2002, the Attorney General of Texas issued this complaint charging Brian S. Peskin and his company with making misleading claims about his credentials and three Radiant Health products they were marketing. In January 2003, the District Court issued a permanent injunction ordering Peskin and his company to pay $100,000 to the State of Texas and to refrain from making a long list of unsubstantiated claims about their Radiant Health Products and Peskin's credentials."


Do any of these things cause you to question more some of Peskin's claims, including the purported benefits of the omega 6 supplement he recommends to his readers and his claim that flaxseed and safflower oils are superior to fish oil?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 11:45:44 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2010, 08:33:57 am »
I'm not interested in brian's supplements at all.

I said:

Brian recommends ridiculous supplements for his "parent" omega oils which to my mind is just RAW FAT.

So his studies say RAW fat is king.

I'm just wondering if there is an optimum ratio of raw animal fat consumption.

I bet most of us here get our raw fats from beef and eggs.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2010, 09:00:28 am »
Yes, and you also wrote: "He may have a thing because he claims experiments with people supplementing with his recommended ratio, plaques in heart disease have been reversed and he claims his recent test shows he has zero score." I don't mean this in a critical way, I'm just trying to understand why you would cite Peskin on this and what your point was with this statement. Which supplement of his were referring to here? Is it not the one he recommends that contains omega 6 from flaxseed and safflower oil?

I believe the ratio range he stated matches that recommended by Dr. Cordain, so it's probably a reasonable one, I just don't see the sense of supplementing with omega 6 whether one is on a SAD diet that is already too high in omega 6 or a raw Paleo diet that includes pastured meats that contain plenty of the only essential omega 6 FA--arachidonic acid--do you? Because of this, I treat with some skepticism his claims that his experiments showed that people supplementing with his recommended plant oil product did well because of the product, rather than other aspects of their diet. Kurt Harris and Mary Enig have pointed out this same fallacy of Peskin promoting omega 6 plant oils as necessary. Besides, as was mentioned earlier, as long as one is eating raw Paleo diet with pasture-fed and wild animals/fish I don't think one needs to worry much about one's omega 6/3 ratio--unless you have a deficiency that hasn't resolved.

Peskin's recommended diet is similar to mine in several ways and actually has more differences with yours, such as his limiting of fruits and eating of large amounts of saturated animal fat. I'm interested in why you have made lecture-like statements to me about that, with good intentions I'm sue, but haven't taken issue with him on the very same thing.

It's his promotion of omega 6 plant oils, which Kurt Harris warns are one of the worst aspects of the SAD that I personally find puzzling. If anyone here has reason to tout his claims it's VLCers who eat lots of fat, like me, since he eats a VLC, high-fat diet. Yet inspite of that I acknowledge that some of his claims are questionable, such as promoting omega 6 and warning against fish oil intake (I agree that one can consume too much omega 3s, but he goes overboard on it) and consumption of fresh whole wild fish yet advertising canned fish, because I am wary of relying on the veracity of any claim just because some guru said it, particularly when they have a spotty record. These aspects of his program trigger my skeptometer. Don't they raise any questions at all for you?

You didn't answer my questions. Why have people here only mentioned Peskin re: fish oils and omega 6/3 ratio and ignored all other aspects of his recommendations?

Tyler already moved one of the Peskin threads to hot topics, because his recommendations are sufficiently non-raw and non-Paleo, so I'm curious why there doesn't seem to be more skepticism regarding him. He doesn't seem to back up his claims as well as Stephan Guyenet or Kurt Harris.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 09:11:00 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2010, 10:32:35 am »
I appreciate your criticisms of brian peskin.
FYI, I'm not his champion and I couldn't care less about his other stuff..
I don't see why brian peskin's diet or my diet or your criticism has anything to do with this thread.
Frankly, I'm not interested in brian peskin's diet recommendations.

I'm only interested in his alleged PEO = raw fat ratios of 1:1 to 1:4 of O3 and O6.

All I'm asking if you guys have ever thought about your RAW ANIMAL FAT ratios.

Like how much fat from raw fish vs how much fat from raw beef back fat to how much fat from bone marrow and how much fat from duck eggs?
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Offline yuli

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2010, 10:46:05 am »
I bet most of us here get our raw fats from beef and eggs.

That made me want to analyze again what ratio of fats I am getting:
I am pretty random these day, some days I get it from beef or lamb & marrow, some days I get it from raw nuts that I shell myself (NOT nut butters).
In the nut days I am probably getting a huge amount of omega 6 fats, even an overload (although its completely satisfying)!
I have salmon days, and days where I consume cod liver oil and flax oil, on those days I am probably alternately getting an omega 3 overload.
The beef fat is grass-fed so then the ratio is pretty balanced/acceptable, the lamb is grain supplemented so then I'd be getting a little more omega 6...the eggs I eat are pretty even ratio-wise.

I'm only interested in his alleged PEO = raw fat ratios of 1:1 to 1:4 of O3 and O6.
All I'm asking if you guys have ever thought about your RAW ANIMAL FAT ratios.
Like how much fat from raw fish vs how much fat from raw beef back fat to how much fat from bone marrow and how much fat from duck eggs?

I read in many sources that an accepted healthy level is a range between 1:1 to 1:4....
I do think of it but rarely measure, the ratio bounces depending on what I am eating that day, if the overall ratio is only taken as a total after a week or two, then it balances out within the accepted level. I wonder if there is a benefit to eating the accepted ratio on a daily basis or to bounce around the ratio as long as it evens out after a certain interval.  ???



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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2010, 11:06:40 am »
I was just responding to and inquiring about this quote: "He may have a thing because he claims experiments with people supplementing with his recommended ratio, plaques in heart disease have been reversed and he claims his recent test shows he has zero score." I was curious why you wrote that. I don't understand why that's a problem, but it's not worth pursuing if it will cause frustration and I've lost interest anyway.

Quote
All I'm asking if you guys have ever thought about your RAW ANIMAL FAT ratios.
I already answered that one, and it was answered above as well ("I wouldn't worry about it to mcuh, issues like this seem to balance out when raw paleo" --Kurite). Peskin's range seems reasonable and matches Cordain's, but as long as you're eating raw Paleo and eating good quality foods (like pasture-fed, wild, etc.) and getting a decent amount of saturated fat it's probably not a big deal, unless someone has a serious deficiency that is not resolved by raw Paleo. Because of that, I don't measure the omega 6/3 ratios or saturated vs. unsaturated or anything like that. Leave people like Peskin who don't eat raw Paleo to worry about that. Is there some specific reason you're concerned about it besides Peskin's writings?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 11:21:40 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2010, 11:16:32 am »
Is there some specific reason you're concerned about it besides Peskin's writings?

I'm into healing people, like next month I have to fly to my uncle in the province and cure his brain tumor and lung tumor.

Anything that enhances my healing tools is interesting.
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Re: Optimum Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 - How to get on Raw Paleo Diet?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2010, 11:45:50 am »
I'm into healing people, like next month I have to fly to my uncle in the province and cure his brain tumor and lung tumor.

Anything that enhances my healing tools is interesting.
OK, good, now we're getting somewhere. I haven't read much on brain and lung tumors beyond indirect stuff about the Warburg hypothesis and treating cancer with ketogenic diets. If you Google Warburg hypothesis, ketogenic and cancer you should come up with some links, such as these:

Warburg Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis

Glycolysis in Disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis#Glycolysis_in_disease

http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2007/09/ketogenic-diet-and-cancerold-news.html
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/4/1/5
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/30
http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-on-low-carb-diet-as-cancer.html
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/5/1/33
http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2009/01/sugary-diets-and-cancer.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19116885?dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19116878?dopt=Abstract http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2010/02/sugar-and-cancer.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627603.500-cancers-sweet-tooth-becomes-a-target.html?full=true&print=true
http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2010/05/sugar-and-cancer-more-studies.html
New research shows cancer caused by carbohydrates, sugars, white flour, and corn syrup
August 08, 2004, http://www.naturalnews.com/001812.html
Brian Peskin even says “Cancer Loves Sugar,” http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/sugar.htm
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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