Author Topic: Carb containing meats?  (Read 18849 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2010, 07:02:39 am »
Where did you find that ? I’m not aware that he did so. AFAIK he only warned about eating too much meat (of domesticated mammals, but perhaps he didn’t make that clear enough). Anyhow, he always ate meat and couldn’t be more far away from vegans.

  Well, I only knew of very few Instincto references in English at the time, so I had just read stuff about GCB recommending against raw meat because of his wife's issues, though I much later heard from another frenchman that there were other reasons for her illness. I suppose I had also read beyondveg.com's site which more or less claimed that Instinctos depended too much on consumption of sweet fruits. Of course that site is admittedly fanatically anti-raw.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2010, 07:12:27 am »
What's wrong with studying Price/Pottenger? They were around long before AV.AV mentions Pottenger's cats quite frequently to prove his points.
   I had noticed that Pottenger had not done his experiment properly - he should have done a trial comparing cats fed on 100 percent raw meats to those other cats fed on raw dairy/cod liver oil. So I thought that experiment was a bit flawed.

As for  Weston Price, I immediately was turned off by him re all those mentions   of primitive, supposedly saintly, tribes living in splendid isolation from the rest of us mere mortals. I was already aware that the Noble Savage theory was utter rubbish, given past historical examples,  and realised that I needed some more solid theories. Besides, Price was recommending lots of cooked meats with only a little emphasis on raw meats, and cooked meats had ruined my life up to that point.

AV on the other hand, referred to some useful scientific studies and was far more vehement on the raw aspect so I was prepared to ignore his 1 or 2 noble-savage-related notions re Native-American Chieftains and coyotes. Also, AV had made some side references to the hygiene hypothesis theory and heat-created toxins in cooked foods, and subsequent search of relevant studies confirmed what AV had said.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2010, 09:14:18 am »
Well, I've been a carnivore (not raw yet, but I'll get there eventually) for the past month or two and I was wondering something. When you eat meats that have a good amount of carbs such as liver, do you think the carbs affect you? I read from some people that carbs in meats don't matter at all, but then I see some people saying they will probably make you gain some weight. I searched this but I couldn't find it, so I was wondering what the thought is here.
I haven't noticed any problems from liver or eggs. Liver at times actually gives me a boost. I haven't found any plant sources of carbs that I handle well, though small amounts of low-carb fruits don't bother me that much. I also don't handle raw honey or milk well, for whatever reason.

Well those RZCers who've eaten raw animal foods with carbs in them like raw liver, raw mussels etc., have generally said they were fine with them, and when they mention suffering from plant-foods, they  also generally mention suffering from all kinds of other plant nutrients, even plant-based raw fats like in avocados. This leads me to think that the issue of carbs is irrelevant, and that these people simply have issues with every plant-based nutrient, rather than just a sensitivity towards carbs.
I do get mild gas from avocados, but some veggies don't bother me noticeably, like young greens, broccoli heads, radishes, ginger, carrots, etc. They tend to be veggies that are relatively low in carbs, so the carb aspect could well be a problem for me. Besides, even if they're not a problem for me, carbohydrate intolerance is a recognized clinical diagnosis (http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec02/ch017/ch017c.html) as is fructose intolerance (http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/sec23/ch282/ch282b.html), so carbs, at least plant carbs, apparently can be a real medical problem for some people. It would be interesting to know whether patients with carb intolerance can handle liver and eggs and how one gets tested for carb intolerance.

Trichinosis is still occurring in the USA, largely from wild omnivore meats:
Quote
Trichinosis Surveillance, United States, 1986
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001752.htm

The suspected meat was examined for Trichinella larvae in three outbreaks and in one isolated case. Two of these outbreaks involved wild boar meat (Hawaii, seven cases; New Hampshire, seven cases), and the third involved bear meat (Pennsylvania, 14 cases). The consumption of Trichinella-positive cougar meat caused an isolated case in Oregon.

In instances in which the food item was known or suspected (43 cases), pork was incriminated in 26 (60.5%) cases, bear meat in 14 (32.6%), and other meat in three (6.9%). Wild boar was the form of pork most frequently implicated, and it accounted for 14 (32.6%) cases (Table 2). In the other 12 cases due to pork, six patients purchased their pork directly from a farm; three, from a supermarket; and in three cases the origin of the pork was unknown (Table 3).

The method of meat preparation was identified in 42 cases: in 21 (50%), it was roasted over an open fire; in nine (21.4%), the meat was eaten raw; in six (14.3%), it was fried; in five (11.9%), it was microwaved; and in one case, it was boiled.

... and AV said...
Tyler's right. AV saying something doesn't make it so. I think Tyler goes overboard with the attacks on gurus at times, but it's probably because statements like these keep coming up that suggest guru worship, whether intended or not.

There is one positive thing one might say re AV as regards his raw dairy stance. From his point of view, most people have an unreasonable, near-hysterical, media-inspired, phobia towards raw meats ....
Agreed, the amount of hysteria toward raw meats (and insects) is amazing. At times it even takes the shape of hatred! Bizarrely, people have much less trouble with raw fish, as long as it's given special foreign names like sashimi and sushi and eaten in restaurants instead of at home. Also bizarrely, some people who won't eat raw meat or eggs at home will eat it at a restaurant when it's called "steak tartare" (one of my sisters is one). This despite the fact that you can better oversee the safety and quality of the food at home than you can in the unseen kitchen and freezer of a restaurant. Rational people suddenly become hysterical magical thinkers when it comes to raw meats, insects and other unusual foods. It's clearly a matter of social conditioning from an early age.

Thanks for sharing about raw honey, King Salmon. My raw honey experiments have also produced rather poor results. Some folks apparently handle it fine, but not me. It's good to know I'm not the only one, so I will be less likely to fall prey to the temptation to eat a lot of it by convincing myself that it can't be all that bad if no one else reports problems from it.

BTW, Tyler, there's a new and supposedly improved version of the Hygiene Hypothesis called the Old Friends Hypothesis. Jasper, the guy who sells helminthic worms, uses the new term now.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 03:11:11 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2010, 11:11:22 am »

to me there is no amount of meat that will supplement a diet that is overloaded on raw fruit or raw veg carbs. There are alot of ex-raw veg cruising the idea of adding animal foods their green smoothie diet or whatever and I don't think that will in the end make much of a difference. It might make up for issues of deficiency, but most issues people run into on vegan diets are not due to hardcore deficiency but fermentation and lack of digestibility or assimilation of raw materials and energy from the food. This is compounded by not enough animal fats to properly pull out all the released toxins, so the stuff cycles in a bad way with the sugar. This idea isn't unique to any one philosophy (carnivorous/vegan etc..)

I mean most modern diets are so absent of raw nutrition but don't run into the same issues as people on a wide spectrum of restricted approaches. Many traditional diets that contain large amounts of processed veg foods combined with healthy lifestyle are far healthier than many people in the high fruit arena.

if we were talking a short period, or even a few years, I would choose a properly executed raw veg low fruit diet and be bored, obsessively sprouting, and weak over a cooked to cinder ZC diet but there is a whole other hierarchy for me.

I would choose a cooked diet that contains raw veg ala Mark Sisson over even a raw fruit based diet that even included some raw meat - if we were talking lifelong for sure. I'd actually choose a healthy SWD diet as well, as at least that would have social benefits.

perhaps i'm the outlier. I think all raw unsalted dairy tastes terrible (sans milk but that is also too carby/fungusy) but certain types are more healthful for me than almost all foods other than fresh unfrozen animal fat and possibly frozen marrow and fresh meats. I think honey is just flat out strange to eat unless I guess if it was part of some kind of recipe that I wouldn't eat probably in the first place. I think veg juice even unmixed (cucumber or cellery) tastes divine and feels awesome in my body but I can't afford it, and take some heed to the blood sugar theories as a precaution while I heal from other various issues. If I had no health issues around sugar, I would still choose veg juices over whole fruit if I had to choose on nutrition alone, but in the real world I would consume small amounts of both for health.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 11:23:26 am by KD »

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2010, 03:10:28 pm »
What's wrong with studying Price/Pottenger?
Direct extrapolation of the results from the cats to humans is very very WRONG.
Raw aspect is good of course.
But claiming that we should eat as carnivorously as cats is a nonsense. Our metabolism is different than their.
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2010, 12:46:35 am »
Hannibal: It's interesting to me that humans are supposed to be the most "intelligent" of the species on earth,yet have the hardest time trying to figure out what to eat ;D
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2010, 12:58:47 am »
have the hardest time trying to figure out what to eat ;D
I haven't got any problems.  8)
I eat what I want to eat - primarily from fauna.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2010, 02:08:31 am »
I haven't got any problems.  8)
I eat what I want to eat - primarily from fauna.

Yeah,discovered after how much time devoted to research and experimentation? ;)
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2010, 02:13:05 am »
Yeah,discovered after how much time devoted to research and experimentation? ;)
Because I hadn't been raised amoung primitive raw eaters somewhere in Alaska.
A lot of to unlearn :)
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline babetteq

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Carb containing meats?
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2011, 07:05:53 am »
I know I'm coming in late in the conversation, but I'm still stuck a few pages back...

Quote
I tried a milk liver smoothie ...  It didn't taste good.

Next time, just ask...
I do what I do because it feels good. I don't care what you do. But if it doesn't work, please don't complain. Just change it.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk