Author Topic: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?  (Read 57184 times)

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Offline Iguana

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Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« on: November 23, 2011, 05:03:41 pm »
Organic means nothing these days. Go for 100 percent grassfed meats or wild game meats, all raw, of course. Fish, fruit are fine, though less of a staple of the diet than meat, if possible. Keep nut consumption very low, though.
I eat as many unsoaked nuts as I like (one kind at a time, though). You just can't overeat them if they haven't been heated and if you don't process nor mix them. Vegetables are fine, I eat some almost everyday. Eggs and shellfish can be delicious. Consumption of too much muscle meat from domesticated animals, even 100% grass fed, has proved to be dangerous in the long run, inducing tumors. Hopefully, meat from wild animals having no access to garbage should be ok even consumed in large amount, as long as organs and marrow are eaten along. We should probably eat more small animals, birds and insects (bee brood, for example) as well.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 05:09:50 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 05:19:21 pm »
Consumption of too much muscle meat from domesticated animals, even 100% grass fed, has proved to be dangerous in the long run, inducing tumors.
  The only studies linking consumption of muscle-meats to tumours have involved consumption of cooked muscle-meats(as well as cooked animal foods in general). Studies have also shown that this carcinogenic effect is increased the more one cooks those meats. Raw meats are not carcinogenic in this way - unless one is thinking of grainfed meats, perhaps, given that they contain sizeable levels of AGEs, even when raw.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 05:33:53 pm »
Tyler, I'm not referring to published studies but to the experience gained with several hundreds of people during 45 years of instinctive raw paleo nutrition in Switzerland and France.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 06:13:36 pm »
Tyler, I'm not referring to published studies but to the experience gained with several hundreds of people during 45 years of instinctive raw paleo nutrition in Switzerland and France.

I'd love for you to share that experience, Iguana.  I'm listening.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 06:34:56 pm »
I hope GCB will answer as he's much more knowledgeable than me in biochemistry and has been closely involved in this experience.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 07:06:07 pm »
I hope GCB will answer as he's much more knowledgeable than me in biochemistry and has been closely involved in this experience.
Until he does, if he does, please share with us what you know on the subject. This is obviously very important to most of us trying to follow a raw paleo diet in modern times and surroundings.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 07:49:40 pm »
Does not the alliesthetic sense protect against overeating raw grassfed meat to the point of inducing tumors?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 08:00:59 pm »
It seems overeating could happen just as with modern artificially selected fruits.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 08:04:54 pm »
So it would not be a problem with meat from wild animals?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 08:07:07 pm »
Yes, hopefully it wouldn't be a problem.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline papangue

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 08:30:20 pm »
what does bee brood taste like?

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 01:23:44 am »
..Consumption of too much muscle meat from domesticated animals, even 100% grass fed, has proved to be dangerous in the long run, inducing tumors.

Really? Even if it is consumed raw?

Do you know any cases beside GCB's wife?

And even in her case, we can't be sure. It is very like that she has eaten massive amounts of the domesticated sugar bombs from Orkos before her muscle meat diet experiment.

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Offline GCB

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 06:30:51 am »
You say "massive Amounts of the domesticated sugar bombs from Orkos" ... Could I ask you on which fact this statement is based ?

There has never been any problem of excess sugars with a correctly practiced instincto. All fruit sold by Orkos are grown in optimum conditions and chosen to be as close as possible to the original strains. It is impossible to have an adequate supply if you want to be limited to wild products only. But through a relearning of flavors, we adapt very well to the fruits and vegetables currently available

The best evidence that this equilibrium is fully achieved is given by a very sensitive criterion: the inflammatory tendency. By the way, this is a fundamental discovery that I was able to do in the instincto context. When following the changes in foodstuffs’ taste by stopping the intake as soon as a negative component appears (too acidic, too spicy, too sweet, too bitter, etc.), the inflammatory tendency disappears.

This can be easily seen when a fresh wound is healing. It occurs without redness, without any  pain and with no irritation nor any swelling around the wound. If one forces the intake (by breaking the red lights in taste), we see these signs immediately reappearing – after only one meal with overload. If we then return to a precise control, the pain quickly disappears, followed by the disappearance of the redness and swelling (often in less than a day).

It is matter of "sugar bombs" only in nutritional conditions where one ignores the signals from the senses, or else in case of cooked or seasoned food which leads to systematic misleading of the senses. We can then easily cause sugar overloads, which explains the mistrust that has developed against them. Glucose is the number one fuel for all life forms. It is of course not the sugar itself that should be demonized, but rather the changes we apply to foodstuffs to make them taste better than plain: it is these processing that leads to a permanent overload.

Offline GCB

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2011, 06:37:58 am »
As Iguana asked me, here is a brief summary of my observations and inferences.
 
I should point out first that the observations on which I rely on cover a long period, from 1964 to recent years. They deal with raw meat, especially beef, pork, mutton and game. I have seen that excessive consumption of protein over several years can cause keratinizations (dry skin, callus under the feet, hands calluses, cracked fingers, wrinkles, dandruff, brittle and overgrown nails and hair, thickening of warts, etc.), immune disorders or autoimmune disorders (eczema, rheumatism, arthritis, arthritis, etc..) and tumor growth.

The task was first to define the notion of "excessive consumption". Data from conventional nutrition science, which recommended a given amount of protein per day, does not account for individual differences or variations in requirements depending on the state of the body. The experiment was therefore based on sensory data: when consuming raw meat without any seasoning nor other deterioration, and as much as possible wild meat, there’s indeed a change in taste perception coupled with feelings of fullness that can indicate the need’s fulfillment.

Immune disorders are explained as follows: when there is digestive or metabolic overload, a proportion of the ingested proteins escape the enzymes responsible for degrading them, while they retain their antigenic structures – that is to say that the immune system recognizes them as foreign to the human body. If the situation repeats itself excessively, there may be sensitization (allergies), tolerance (paralysis of the immune system to certain types of molecules), or an autoimmune reaction (the immune system turning against the cells of the body, either that they display similar proteins or that foreign proteins are set on their membrane).

I can only recommend to people who experience systematic consumption of raw meat to remain very vigilant. Although initially everything seems to be fine, induced disorders may occur much later, and be fairly irreversible. I myself eat almost everyday an animal protein of various sources (meat, fish, shellfish, crab or eggs), but I stop as soon as it becomes less tasty or at the slightest feeling that I have eaten enough of it. So I’ve been able to put under control the disorders that had arisen at times when we experienced an excessive consumption of meat (mainly beef muscle) – whereas it went so far as to cause the death of my wife.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 10:44:50 pm by Iguana »

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2011, 08:30:03 am »
Wow, super thank you for sharing your insights!
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Offline Ferocious

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2011, 03:20:27 pm »
Tyler, I'm not referring to published studies but to the experience gained with several hundreds of people during 45 years of instinctive raw paleo nutrition in Switzerland and France.

I think too much of ANYTHING, meaning more than our instincts tell us (whether we feel them or not) to eat would be dangerous.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2011, 05:02:45 pm »
Past 2 months my appetite for beef had markedly decreased.  I'm more diverse into fish, squid and clams lately.  It's some kind of cycle.  And maybe less animal food.  Instead of the old usual 0.6 kg a day, maybe 0.4 or less.  It must be the durian though.
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2011, 05:09:32 pm »
I think too much of ANYTHING, meaning more than our instincts tell us (whether we feel them or not) to eat would be dangerous.
I think that's obvious. The real challenge is to hear and listen to our instincts. In our modern world of broad choice, deception and temptation. It is very difficult to separate nurture based desires from natures instincts.

I found that if I only eat what appeals to me I tend to eat to much fruit and way to little meat. How do I know? I get sluggish, healing is retarded and my previous digestive issues re-emerge. If I restrict fruit to 1 or 2 a day and eat plenty of muscle meat, liver and marrow I feel best. Perhaps I'm doing what my instincts would have told me if I was capable of hearing their gentle voices amongst the screaming crouds of desires and temptation.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 07:16:39 pm by TylerDurden »
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline zbr5

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2011, 10:10:48 pm »
I would love to read GCB's book or even booklet that gives some practical perspective on what we can do nowadays to optimize our health by diet. I know there is a book on anopsology already (that I value highly by the way) but I would love to see more personal insights, stories, experiences, conlusions after living in instincto communities for that long.

Offline Ferocious

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2011, 02:58:20 am »
I think that's obvious. The real challenge is to hear and listen to our instincts. In our modern world of broad choice, deception and temptation. It is very difficult to separate nurture based desires from natures instincts.

I found that if I only eat what appeals to me I tend to eat to much fruit and way to little meat. How do I know? I get sluggish, healing is retarded and my previous digestive issues re-emerge. If I restrict fruit to 1 or 2 a day and eat plenty of muscle meat, liver and marrow I feel best. Perhaps I'm doing what my instincts would have told me if I was capable of hearing their gentle voices amongst the screaming crouds of desires and temptation.
I know what you mean about fruit. I think it's because a lot of fruits are sweet and not plain, causing us to desire them.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2011, 06:59:02 am »

 So I’ve been able to put under control the disorders that had arisen at times when we experienced an excessive consumption of meat (mainly beef muscle) – whereas it went so far as to cause the death of my wife.


Thank you so much for posting here.  Forgive me for repeating gossip, but I had heard online that your wife had been eating cookies quite regularly when she became ill.  Is this true? Again, I apologize for repeating unsubstantiated gossip.

Offline van

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2011, 07:41:04 am »
when I was at the castle each of my six visits, I witnessed instinctos eating large quantities of food,  both fruit and meat.    Rosedale is always warning against eating more than moderate amounts of protein at any given meal.  One of his guidelines is eating a piece of animal the size of your palm.   Any more and the protein isn't used for repair and maintenance but is turned into ( sorry I forget this detail)  and causes rises in insulin and or blood sugar.   Along with the notion that excess digested meat causes an immune response, I would also think that undigested meat entering the intestines plays havoc also, in terms of toxins from that substance entering the blood system.  I know for myself that if I overeat, the next day, I'm sluggish, stiff and not as mentally alert.    Rosedale is also noted for saying something unique,, that paleo man's diet wasn't created for long life, but to sustain life for only as long as he/she could reproduce and pass along learned info to children, like, food finding, protection from animals, etc...   I've found with meat that if I pay attention quite closely that the stop is there as well as for fat.  And sometimes I eat them separately simply to recheck more closely how much or what my instinct is telling me.  This also goes for eating with spices or salt.    When I mentioned to Rosedale that the Bear had had cancer, he wasn't surprised one bit and indicated more would follow due to his large meat meals. 

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2011, 08:23:35 am »
In my short stint so far with raw paleo diet of almost 4 years, I observe that raw protein overdose is a problem as you mentioned.  So the solution is to eat A LOT of raw fat with the raw protein always.  It would seem most of us have this observation.  Look at Lex Rooker's journal for ratios.

How much fat vs protein did you see the instinctos eating in the castle at that time?

Did the instinctos at that time know that you need to eat large quantities of raw fat?
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Offline zeno

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2011, 10:56:32 am »
when I was at the castle each of my six visits, I witnessed instinctos eating large quantities of food,  both fruit and meat. Rosedale is always warning against eating more than moderate amounts of protein at any given meal.  One of his guidelines is eating a piece of animal the size of your palm.

I appreciate the introduction of self-control into discussion of anopsology, but also the Raw Paleo Diet in general. When I first began experimenting with raw meat I was left to believe I could eat as much as I wanted, but this often lead to over-eating.

Although, I do have positive experiences with instinctive eating (being attracted to one food one day and then uninterested in the same food after fulfilling some deficiency), I feel that without some sort of rough guideline people can be left to imagine that raw, pre-frozen ground beef is the holy grail and concerns or bad reactions (not healing crises, mind you) should be ignored.

Thank you for sharing this comment. My experience with raw meat has been as described above and now I'm learning that I may not be able to handle as much raw meat as most others on this forum, to which I was completely ignorant of originally. Today, I experimented with wild goose and found myself only capable of eating just over my palm size before I became distracted and no longer interested in eating.

I'll continue to use this guide when I decide to incorporate raw meats back into my diet as a staple.

Offline van

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2011, 01:02:01 pm »
It was maybe the fourth or fifth time, and I will always remember my reaction of a woman eating off the little wooden cutting boards they used for meat, chunks of fat.  I really only remember seeing this once.  I thought then, Ok, the raw meat is one thing, but chunks of fat, how gross.  It was some time ago that I was there, and I think it was my last time visiting before I ate raw meat.  And that too I'll never forget.  I probably ate two or three pounds,, I couldn't stop eating it.  I was leaving the next day to return to the states, and I was so worried that I was going to be sick.  Hadn't eaten meat for probably 15 years,  ( sushi yes),  and no problem at all. Except that my brain got fueled like I had filled it with racing fuel.  Didn't get to sleep till 2 that morning.   Truly convinced me of what I had been starving my body from not eating.

 

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