Author Topic: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?  (Read 65239 times)

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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2011, 05:23:29 am »
I still blame the quality of the meat, not the quantity...although I do think environmental toxins, as well as genetics, probably played a role.  I doubt she would have gotten cancer if she had been eating wild-caught seafood, instead of beef muscle meat.  I could be wrong, of course.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2011, 05:57:38 am »
Yes, we agree. But the culprit was probably the kind of meat (beef muscle) rather than its quality.   
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 06:08:43 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2011, 12:08:36 pm »
Yes, we agree. But the culprit was probably the kind of meat (beef muscle) rather than its quality.   

Hmm...the Maasai don't seem to get cancer much, though. They are major eaters of beef.  Granted, they are probably eating a lot of organs, versus just muscle meat.

Offline Inger

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2011, 07:02:51 pm »
Thank you GCB,
for taking time to explain all so well. I appreciate that very much, I do.

Intresting that your wife tried Hamers method, and it did not worked.
I have to go and think about this now, as I eat a LOT of muscle meat.
I do am careful to eat almost only wild, though. But I will try to add more seafood and organs, even if I already include them in my diet.
More variation cannot be bad. :)

Mm...the Maasai don't seem to get cancer much, though. They are major eaters of beef.  Granted, they are probably eating a lot of organs, versus just muscle meat.

Yes. That might be the point. They ate a lot of organs and such too.
The American  Indians ate a lot of fat I think. It was not a mostly muscle meat diet they ate. They also used lot of wild greens and berries and also some edible roots.
Maybe it is not a good idea to eat so much muscle meat, and not the other components.
Sounds very logical to me.

GS,
thank you for sharing your thoughts about liver health / cancer. I have read something similar somewhere, I just don`t know where anymore. As I think about it, many instinctos / rawfooders might have damaged their liver with too much sweet, cultivated fruits (too much fructose is not great for our liver at all), and then to eat a lot of muscle meat on top of that... might have been a bad idea.
Just a thought.

Inger


Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #104 on: December 10, 2011, 01:33:25 am »
Hmm...the Maasai don't seem to get cancer much, though. They are major eaters of beef.  Granted, they are probably eating a lot of organs, versus just muscle meat.
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people#Diet
Meat, although an important food, is consumed irregularly and cannot be classified as a staple food. Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans. Butter is also an important infant food. Blood is rarely drunk.”[81]
Are there any statistical study about the cancer rates in the Masai people or do we have to rely on AV’s tales only? Anyway, they consume meat irregularly, just like GCB suggests  to avoid the induction of immune system reactions.

Quote
http://health.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/3732
The Masaii villager mentioned that their lifespan was 80-90 years old. We asked what they do to ensure this...they basically boil what they eat... including the meat...I asked specifically for you:)"
So, it seems they cook quite a lot.

Quote
http://health.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/3746
We can go back and forth with AV forever, but it's basically a waste
of time. All he ever offers us are hearsay and Aajonisms. We should
ignore the explorers and researchers studying the Masai, because he
met some guy in Los Angeles in 1984 who claimed to be Masai, from
the undocumented splinter group eating all-raw who were stronger,
smarter, taller, and more fierce than the rest. I suppose they were
holding Masai Olympics and spelling bees and quiz shows to find out
who was the strongest and smartest tribe. Strange that none of the
researchers or explorers have mentioned this.
  ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 01:55:38 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2011, 04:18:12 am »
Yes, but there were some Masai tribes who required their men ages 15-35 to eat nothing but meat, milk, and blood.

I think the lack of organ meats, and overeating muscle meats, is a serious problem. 

Offline GCB

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2011, 04:28:40 am »
As I think about it, many instinctos / rawfooders might have damaged their liver with too much sweet, cultivated fruits (too much fructose is not great for our liver at all

Where do these conjectures come from? The instinctos consume significantly less sugar than the average people on common cooked diet. In addition, the sugars they consume are not damaged by heat (no glycation). Furthermore, the instinct ensures extremely precise control, as shown by a variety of criteria. And then they should have the liver in a bad condition??

The reality is that I’ve never heard of any symptoms about liver problems among the still impressive number of people who have practiced instincto long term. If anyone knows such a case I would be happy that he/she reports it: I will immediately take it into account to review the theory (as I always did whenever a contradiction arose and it’s even by this method that I developed the whole theory).

The question is rather to know where this legend saying sweet fruits are necessarily harmful emerged. If there is a problem to solve, I fear it is a psychological matter, not a liver matter...  ;)

« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 04:35:00 am by Iguana »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2011, 08:38:22 am »
Yes, we agree. But the culprit was probably the kind of meat (beef muscle) rather than its quality.
Oh me poor brain is spinning, trying to understand all this. So if the culprit is the kind of meat rather than the taste of the meat, then it does seem pretty clear that we can't rely on our alliesthetic mechanism alone, but must also consider the kind of meat too, right, such as consciously limit our intake of beef muscle meat regardless of quality?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #108 on: December 10, 2011, 09:51:24 am »
I remember at the castle watching most instinctos living there, including Nicole, eating large quantities of animal protein and also eating ( to me) large amounts of sweet fruit.   That for me never has worked.  Maybe it's a reduced amount of stomach acid etc... and the dilution of it by eating fruit at the same meal..  Doing so always results in less than ideal digestion, and hence undigested materials going through my colon etc.  And then there's blood sugar rises with eating large quantities of  meat and fruit.  As I have mentioned before,  I only watched one or two times people eating good portions of fat along with meat.    Although eggs and sea products were also abundant.    Nicole also would eat later in the evening, and large amounts.  She also would stay up quite late and work into the early morning hours.  She was driven.  She didn't seem to be at peace.   She was also estranged from her husband and alone, at least the several times I visited. 

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #109 on: December 10, 2011, 11:11:32 am »
I'm very sorry for your loss GCB.  :'(

In America 1 out of every 3 women will get cancer. 1 out of ever 2 men. Those are the statistics these days.  :o  A third of all women and half of all men. When we are talking about these kinds of astronomical numbers I would imagine that it would be very hard to confidently claim one "cause of cancer" for everyone - not without some very large studies. Percentage cures with different therapies is a different kind of claim altogether.

The Gerson folks were the ones that started the "liver" as being over-burdened idea I think - that's why they do coffee enemas - to detox the liver. Also the carrot juice detoxes and nourishes the liver and in earlier times they had people drink raw liver juice.

GCB - thank you so much for coming and explaining things to us.  I have to admit though that, like Phil, I am confused and my brain is hurting. Are you saying that even if muscle meat that is grass-fed or wild from pristine spaces smells, feels and tastes good - still - one can eat too much and it could result in cancer? Please excuse me if I'm being a bit dense. I really want to understand this. Is muscle meat not included in the basic instincto principles as I understand them?

Offline Hanna

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #110 on: December 10, 2011, 08:18:17 pm »
Quote
I remember at the castle watching most instinctos living there, including Nicole, eating large quantities of animal protein and also eating ( to me) large amounts of sweet fruit.   That for me never has worked.  Maybe it's a reduced amount of stomach acid etc... and the dilution of it by eating fruit at the same meal.. 

So they used to eat animal protein and fruit at the same meal? Habitual "bad" food combinations are possibly another important point, gcb, aren´t they? However, I don´t understand exactly why. When I combined my foods poorly I used to get certain unpleasant symptoms even if my digestion was (obviously) fine. Gcb, you once suggested that poor food combining leads to the formation of AGEs and therefore to health problems. But then the consumption, for example, of stored nuts should cause problems too because AGEs do not only form during cooking, but also during storage. Are there "good" AGEs, which don´t cause trouble even if consumed in quantity, and "bad" AGEs which cause problems even in relatively small amounts?

Hi Iguana,
Quote
At least in Switzerland, we didn’t change our habit to eat a lot of meat.
Since when have you eaten "a lot of meat"?
Could you roughly estimate how much meat you eat since then on average?

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2011, 03:53:18 am »
Yes, but there were some Masai tribes who required their men ages 15-35 to eat nothing but meat, milk, and blood.
Is it documented or is it just another of AV’s fairy tales?

Quote
I think the lack of organ meats, and overeating muscle meats, is a serious problem. 
It may well be so, but on a strictly carnivorous diet it’s certainly not enough because carnivores also eat the contents of the stomach and intestines of their preys in which they find partly digested plant food.


Oh me poor brain is spinning, trying to understand all this. So if the culprit is the kind of meat rather than the taste of the meat, then it does seem pretty clear that we can't rely on our alliesthetic mechanism alone, but must also consider the kind of meat too, right, such as consciously limit our intake of beef muscle meat regardless of quality?
Yes. Didn’t GCB and I explain several times that we should be careful with domestic animals’ meat just as with modern cultivated fruits? It’s no problem if we eat once a way as much beef as we like, but obviously we shouldn’t do it everyday. 

I remember at the castle watching most instinctos living there, including Nicole, eating large quantities of animal protein and also eating ( to me) large amounts of sweet fruit.   That for me never has worked.  Maybe it's a reduced amount of stomach acid etc... and the dilution of it by eating fruit at the same meal..  Doing so always results in less than ideal digestion, and hence undigested materials going through my colon etc.  And then there's blood sugar rises with eating large quantities of  meat and fruit.  As I have mentioned before,  I only watched one or two times people eating good portions of fat along with meat.    Although eggs and sea products were also abundant
Yes, I was there several times from 1987 to 1992 and people stayed lengthily at the table for the evening meal. Usually we chose an animal food first, then some vegetables and somewhat latter fruits, preferably a single kind. As a rule, more than one or even two hours elapsed between the meat or fish and fruits, with vegetable in-between. Each meal was a feast.  :D :)

GCB - thank you so much for coming and explaining things to us.  I have to admit though that, like Phil, I am confused and my brain is hurting. Are you saying that even if muscle meat that is grass-fed or wild from pristine spaces smells, feels and tastes good - still - one can eat too much and it could result in cancer? Please excuse me if I'm being a bit dense. I really want to understand this. Is muscle meat not included in the basic instincto principles as I understand them?
No problem with meat of wild animals, or even with a huge amount of beef  in a meal or perhaps during a whole week once in a way. The point is that we shouldn’t eat the meat of the same animal kind everyday for long periods of time. Variations are essential. 

For example, if we choose to eat deer, mutton or beef one day, there’s no arbitrary limit to the amount we can eat, the limit being set instinctively for each individual at the moment. But if that individual has a choice limited to a single kind of meat (beef , mutton or even deer) for several months or years and eats it everyday, he/she’s likely going into troubles in the long run.

The ideal is to have a broad choice or one that constantly varies, so that for example we can choose instinctively to eat for proteins: wild boar on Monday, hen’s eggs on Tuesday, mackerel on Wednesday, clams on Thursday, ducks eggs on Friday, crab on Saturday, beef on Sunday and… macadamia nuts next Monday!   

So they used to eat animal protein and fruit at the same meal? Habitual "bad" food combinations are possibly another important point, gcb, aren´t they? However, I don´t understand exactly why. When I combined my foods poorly I used to get certain unpleasant symptoms even if my digestion was (obviously) fine. Gcb, you once suggested that poor food combining leads to the formation of AGEs and therefore to health problems. But then the consumption, for example, of stored nuts should cause problems too because AGEs do not only form during cooking, but also during storage. Are there "good" AGEs, which don´t cause trouble even if consumed in quantity, and "bad" AGEs which cause problems even in relatively small amounts?
Yes, but it’s much better to let at least 45 minutes or one hour elapse between the meat and vegetables and then again at least 30 minutes between vegetables and fruits, so that the digestive enzymes can break apart the proteins before something else comes in. It’s even better if we can totally avoid to ingest any fruit after a meal including an animal protein stuff.

Concerning AGEs, AFAIK (GCB might correct me if I’m wrong) their production increases exponentially with the temperature. Some are formed at ambient temperature during storage, but it is in insignificant amounts, even if you store nuts for a couple of years.       

Quote
Hi Iguana, Since when have you eaten "a lot of meat"?
Could you roughly estimate how much meat you eat since then on average?
Ever since I began with instinctive raw paleo nutrition, in January 1987. I eat meat with no preset limit, but not everyday, as explained above. It means that when I eat meat I can eat a lot of it, and the longest is the interval between two meals with meat, the more meat I can eat at once.
As a rough estimate, I would say 30 - 60 kg of meat per year, plus 200 – 500 eggs (when available), plus I don’t know how many kg of shellfish and fish. When I traveled or was residing in tropical places, I ate mostly fish and very little meat because local availability of suitable meats was lacking.   
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 05:21:02 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #112 on: December 11, 2011, 06:03:08 am »
Thanks for trying to explain, Iguana, but my head is spinning even more now. I didn't realize that Instincto was this complex. Maybe it's partly a translation problem? I tried to understand it all, sorry.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #113 on: December 11, 2011, 06:55:51 am »
Post deleted in agreement between global moderators because it was an insult to people practicing instinctive raw paleo nutrition. 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:19:56 pm by Iguana »

Offline Hanna

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2011, 07:04:54 am »
Hi Iguana, :)
Quote
people stayed lengthily at the table for the evening meal. Usually we chose an animal food first, then some vegetables and somewhat latter fruits, preferably a single kind. As a rule, more than one or even two hours elapsed between the meat or fish and fruits, with vegetable in-between.
But what did they/you do during these one or two hours that elapsed between meat and fruit? Did they/you sit at table for one or two hours eating vegetable all the time?

Quote
Concerning AGEs, AFAIK (GCB might correct me if I’m wrong) their production increases exponentially with the temperature. Some are formed at ambient temperature during storage, but it is in insignificant amounts, even if you store nuts for a couple of years.

Obviously, they are formed in impressive amounts also during storage, even to the point that the nutritional value of the stored food is seriously impaired. For example,

"Panigrahi et al. [1996] tested the effects of storage (under tropical conditions) on the lysine content of maize. They found that the most severely discolored maize lost 50% of its lysine content, primarily due to Maillard reactions. Other amino acids were affected, such as arginine (37% reduction) and glycine (15%). The Maillard products also lowered digestibility by pancreatin. The consequence was that the growth rate of chicks fed (storage-damaged) maize was 10% lower than the controls. However, no other effect on the weight of the liver or pancreas of the treatment chicks was observed." (http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1b.shtml)

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2011, 07:36:41 am »
..
The point is that we shouldn’t eat the meat of the same animal kind everyday for long periods of time.
..

So, what do you think Lex Rooker has to expect, healthwise?

For how many years he is eating nothing else than Slanker's beef now?

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2011, 07:41:30 am »
Concerning AGEs, AFAIK (GCB might correct me if I’m wrong) their production increases exponentially with the temperature. Some are formed at ambient temperature during storage, but it is in insignificant amounts, even if you store nuts for a couple of years.       

Don't forget that fructose causes the formation of massive amounts of endogenous AGEs in our bodies. The temperature is always the same...

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2011, 07:52:49 am »
Quote deleted in agreement between global moderators because it was an insult to people practicing instinctive raw paleo nutrition. 

That is actually an understatement.

The scenes I have seen at "Montramé" could be called Absurdistan, in every aspect (dietary, mentally and socially).

Löwenherz
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:54:30 pm by Iguana »

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2011, 11:49:01 am »
Is it documented or is it just another of AV’s fairy tales?


I believe this passage from Dr. Price's book will be useful:

"...A marked variation of the incidence of irregularities was found in the different tribes. This variation could be directly associated with the nutrition rather than with the tribal pattern. The lowest percentage of irregularity occurred in the tribes living very largely on dairy products and marine life. For example, among the Masai living on milk, blood and meat, only 3.4 per cent had irregularities. Among the Kikuyu and Wakamba, 18.2 and 18.9 per cent respectively had irregularities. These people were largely agriculturists living primarily on vegetable foods..."

I couldn't find direct mention of that rule about Masai men's diets, but I think this passage is a pretty useful one.  The fact is, excess carbs, particularly fruit, are often very hard on the teeth. I'm not saying that eating muscle meat is the answer. However, I think that most instinctos eat too much fruit, and not enough fat. They probably overeat animal protein too, since fat is so good at satisfying appetite, and, without it, it's easy to overeat.




Offline Ferocious

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #119 on: December 11, 2011, 01:27:29 pm »
So, what do you think Lex Rooker has to expect, healthwise?

For how many years he is eating nothing else than Slanker's beef now?

Löwenherz

I've eaten the worse foods for all my life and haven't noticed anything negative. That doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2011, 04:08:37 pm »
Thanks for trying to explain, Iguana, but my head is spinning even more now. I didn't realize that Instincto was this complex. Maybe it's partly a translation problem? I tried to understand it all, sorry.
What is so complex? Variety? It’s much simpler than cooking. We spend much less time preparing the dishes (just about no time at all!) or washing the pots, frying pans and plates. Neither hot water nor detergents are needed, no dishwasher neither.

Hi Iguana, :) But what did they/you do during these one or two hours that elapsed between meat and fruit? Did they/you sit at table for one or two hours eating vegetable all the time?
It was just like it’s customary in France to spend time in a good restaurant, eating slowly, talking together - and in this case also looking and smelling at the various foodstuff to choose one.

Obviously, they are formed in impressive amounts also during storage, even to the point that the nutritional value of the stored food is seriously impaired. For example,

"Panigrahi et al. [1996] tested the effects of storage (under tropical conditions) on the lysine content of maize. They found that the most severely discolored maize lost 50% of its lysine content, primarily due to Maillard reactions. Other amino acids were affected, such as arginine (37% reduction) and glycine (15%). The Maillard products also lowered digestibility by pancreatin. The consequence was that the growth rate of chicks fed (storage-damaged) maize was 10% lower than the controls. However, no other effect on the weight of the liver or pancreas of the treatment chicks was observed." (http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1b.shtml)
I’m not an expert on this, but obviously some food (maize in your example) get storage-damaged much quicker than nuts. I’m not speaking about storage-damaged nuts. 

Don't forget that fructose causes the formation of massive amounts of endogenous AGEs in our bodies. The temperature is always the same...
Any reference?

That is actually an understatement.
The scenes I have seen at "Montramé" could be called Absurdistan, in every aspect (dietary, mentally and socially).
We’ve got to take into account the fact that unusual ways always attract some weird and crazy folks. How long did you stay there?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 03:28:45 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2011, 05:46:50 pm »
Quote
Don't forget that fructose causes the formation of massive amounts of endogenous AGEs in our bodies.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/what-level-of-fructosesugarfruit-consumption-is-safe/
According to these data, up to 90 g fructose per day or at the very least up to 50 g fructose per day are not only harmless, but even beneficial.

Quote
I’m not an expert on this, but obviously some food (maize in your example) get storage-damaged much quicker than nuts.
Why?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2011, 11:11:25 pm »
I like GCB's past use of headings, so I'm going to steal his format--thanks GCB:

To Iguana:
What is so complex? Variety? It’s much simpler than cooking. We spend much less time preparing the dishes (just about no time at all!) or washing the pots, frying pans and plates. Neither hot water nor detergents are needed, no dishwasher neither.
If variety were all that you and GCB discussed, it might be simple, but you two discussed more than that in this thread and still more in others. It seems that another layer of complexity is added with each discussion. Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, as nature is infinitely complex, but it's difficult to get a good grasp of it all. I do hope you can forgive me for having difficulty understanding it all and seeing how it all fits together without creating seeming contradictions. I think I'll try to digest it for now and maybe ask more questions in the future after I've read GCB's paper that you linked to. I did skim it and noticed this excerpt which may prove rather controversial here and that I think was touched on in this thread and another, IIRC:
Quote
A question remains: why meat does figure the common denominator of almost all the tumors that we observed?  I see two reasons: the mammalian proteins are closer to ours than any other. ....

--G.C. Burger
LIGHT ON CANCER
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/IM62-cancer.html
As a matter of fact, I checked again the other thread and see that you mentioned the complexity and seeming contradictory nature yourself:
At first glance it may seem contradictory with what he explained above, but it's not really so. The nature is extremely complex and cannot be accurately accounted for by simplistic binary descriptions. So, I think both of you Hanna and Tyler are right even if your points of view seem opposed. 

To Löwenherz:
Don't forget that fructose causes the formation of massive amounts of endogenous AGEs in our bodies. The temperature is always the same...
What's your take on Chris Masterjohn's article in which he says his analysis of the research indicates that neither PUFAs nor fructose are a major source of AGEs--quite the surprise given as these are two of the three factors commonly described as Neolithic Agents of Disease and are commonly cited as culprits in discussions of AGEs:
Quote
peroxidation of PUFAs is very unlikely to be a major source of AGEs. ....

Much to my consternation I have failed to find any evidence that fructose increases glycation in vivo, despite knowing of this argument for a decade or so. As I stated in the article, direct glycation by sugars is not a major pathway for glycation, and this applies to fructose as well as glucose.
--Chris Masterjohn
http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/10/where-do-most-ages-come-from-o.html
Do you have good counter-evidence?

Chris hinted that AGEs and precursors like methylglyoxal may not be problems in and of themselves, but only in certain contexts, and that they may even serve a useful function as "key signaling molecules":
Quote
AGEs and their dicarbonyl precursors may emerge as key signaling molecules, but that in many situations they do indeed cause harm.
Yes, I know, that's heresy here. I'll reserve comment on that till at least after his next post in the series. It will be interesting to see what it says. I do like the way he's trying to look at the whole picture instead of just a reductionist look at AGEs in isolation.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 12:26:00 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #123 on: December 12, 2011, 02:06:28 am »
Post deleted in accord between global moderators  because it contained insults to one of our members. Paleo Donk is kindly invited not to post here again.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 09:02:27 pm by Iguana »

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2011, 11:00:57 am »
According to these data, up to 90 g fructose per day or at the very least up to 50 g fructose per day are not only harmless, but even beneficial.

That report was not about endogenous AGE formation.

Anyway, I don't think that small amounts of fruits are really dangerous. But I have no doubt that long-term consumption of high amounts is disastrous. Unfortunately the damage needs some years to become visible.

So, if you want to eat fruits because you "love" fruits, you will certainly find as many confirmations, studies, "experts" and appeasements as you desire.

From my own experience I can only tell you that high-fruit consumption for many years was the biggest mistake of my life, regarding physical and social conditions.

Löwenherz
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 04:09:42 pm by TylerDurden »

 

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