Author Topic: shaolin monks  (Read 31453 times)

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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 06:31:27 pm »
It's more interesting that they do perfectly fine with little micronutrients, since rice isn't particularly rich in anything else but carbs and a little protein. Probably they make up with some vegetables.

I'm not sure why rice itself would be health damaging besides the fact that it's not micronutrient dense. Steaming/boiling makes it very digestible, without producing much toxins, and it's very low antinutrient too. I know rice oil is pretty rich with some powerful antioxidants, so maybe normal rice is rich in these too (and in whole form maybe they are even better), which may mean that rice is actually healthy, not health damaging.

But anyway, nutrition is only a part of the picture when it comes to health. Note that these guys live a 'healthy' life since very early age, exercising every day, virtually no stress, low pollution in those mountains, etc. All of this reduces the demand for 'healthy' food, whatever healthy may be. It doesn't mean they won't do even better on raw paleo diet, it just means they already do much better then others on similar or even healthier than their diet because of their lifestyle.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 08:06:15 pm »
"You can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time...but you can't please all of the people, all of the time."--John Lydgate

ROFL
Quite true, which is why I don't try to please all people all the time, as demonstrated by my expressing an unpopular view in this thread.

In the video it also says that being a monk is about attrition too.
Some are monk material and some are not.
That's a good point, GS.

I don't want to get into a long debate about rice or cooking. I'm not trying to say that they're optimal, just that not all cooked diets are equally bad. There seems to be a continuum from bad (junk-food-heavy Standard American Diet) to good (raw Paleo).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 08:29:01 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2012, 03:35:13 am »
I would just like to point out that the larger pancreas and salivary glands of East Asians is not something that other ethnic groups share.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2012, 09:40:43 am »
Hoo boy, here we go. OK, I'll bite a little (in the name of science, of course).  ;D Could you please start by providing a primary scientific source for the larger pancreas/salivary gland claim, so I can read up on it? And I don't mean second- or third- hand sources like  Edward Howell or the WAPF or he said she said, or, worst of all, "I read it somewhere on the Internet." I can certainly believe there is variation in organ size between populations, having read about larger livers among the Inuit, but one question is--how much larger? Double or triple or just slightly larger?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2012, 12:37:44 pm »
I dont believe that having certain glands be larger would create a situation in which a certain type of food which is normally very harmul to humans be not harmful. I believe in variations between races however something so large carries a large burden of proof to me.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2012, 12:57:43 pm »
Hoo boy, here we go. OK, I'll bite a little (in the name of science, of course).  ;D Could you please start by providing a primary scientific source for the larger pancreas/salivary gland claim, so I can read up on it? And I don't mean second- or third- hand sources like  Edward Howell or the WAPF


I couldn't find anything besides Howell or Sally Fallon (or just me, myself posting it on the Native Nutrition yahoo group)  in about 15 minutes of googling.  If you really want to dig to the heart of the matter, we're probably going to have to ask an evolutionary biologist, or a physical anthropologist.  Are you that interested in it?  I'm willing to email a few of those guys, or you can.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2012, 01:03:42 pm »
I dont believe that having certain glands be larger would create a situation in which a certain type of food which is normally very harmul to humans be not harmful. I believe in variations between races however something so large carries a large burden of proof to me.

Yeah, see, here's the thing.  The rate of diabetes is TREMENDOUSLY higher (yes, I can provide souces) among Native Americans than among East Asians.  Why?  They're all the same genetic stock, right? 

I think it's because the Native Americans left East Asia before grain cultivation started. They never really adapted to it.  Corn wasn't widely eaten in the Americas until around 1000 years ago.

The less adventurous East Asians stayed home and grew grain, and, over the thousands of years they were eating a LOT of grain, they developed the ability to handle it much better than their cousins across the water.

Now it's also possible that, since Native Americans all descend from a small group of people, that one of their ancestors was just very prone to diabetes, in addition to this. That would also make a pretty big difference.  I've read that all Native Americans are descended from just 4 women.  That's a pretty small gene pool, and any gene that any of those women had is going to have had a very good chance to magnify itself through generations of inbreeding.

And I'm part Cherokee, so don't bother calling me a racist for saying they're all inbred.  ROFL

Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2012, 02:01:38 pm »
First of all i prefer to call them american indians since anyone born in america is a native american and there have been many caucasian mummies dug up here going back further than any american indian remains.
lets not forget that they are the nations poorest race. This goes hand in hand with their rampant alcoholism and substance abuse. I dont buy that crap about them having an alcoholic gene, I just think it's from the poverty. All of this goes hand in hand with the diabetes.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:59:02 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2012, 02:19:23 pm »
First of all i prefer to call them american indians since anyone born in america is a native american and there have been many caucasian mummies dug up here going back further than any american indian remains.
lets not forget that they are the nations poorest race. This goes hand in hand with their rampant alcoholism and substance abuse. I dont buy that crap about them having an alcoholic gene, i just think it from the poverty. All of this goes hand in hand with the diabetes.

I thought the science behind their inability to metabolize alcohol was solid.  I haven't investigated it heavily, I just thought it was. I could be wrong.

As far as diabetes goes, here are some quotes, with links:

"Data from the 2009 IHS NPIRS indicate that 14.2 percent of American Indians and Alaska Natives ages 20 years or older who received care from the IHS had diagnosed diabetes. After adjusting for population age differences, 16.1 percent of the total adult population served by the IHS had diagnosed diabetes, with rates varying by region from 5.5 percent among Alaska Native adults to 33.5 percent among American Indian adults in southern Arizona."

from : http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/DM/PUBS/statistics/

and

"Diabetes was the:
   •   Fourth leading cause of death among Asians, Blacks, and Pacific Islanders.
   •   Fifth leading cause of death among Hispanics.
   •   Sixth leading cause of death for Two or More Races.
   •   Seventh leading cause of death among American Indians.
   •   Eighth leading cause of death for Whites."

from: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/ohir/Pages/Diabetes2008Race.aspx


The first statistic is weird.  Why would Arizona Indians have such high rates of diabetes? Why are they different?  Also, why do Alaskan Indians have such low rates of diabetes?  Wouldn't their rate be higher, since they've never eaten grains?  The only thing I can think is that they are still eating a lot of traditional foods, in many cases.

However, the 33.5% rate among Arizona Indians isn't just diet and poverty.  Those people have something genetic going on.  I don't buy the poverty and diet explanation, at least not wholly.


« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:59:45 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2012, 04:09:05 pm »
A large number of Orientals are well known to be less able to break down alcohol due to producing the wrong  enzymes. Though, this apparently seems to make them less likely to become alcoholics, not more:-

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v703658ngu601272/

I couldn't find any data re the larger pancreas claim other than the Howell/Fallon one. I wish someone who has read Howell's books could tell us. Hmm, I'll ask at allexperts.com, they are often useful.


Incidentally, I winced when  that "4 women" figure was mentioned. I can't remember where exactly I read it, but it was mentioned that such claims, along with similiar ones such as the African Eve theory, are quite bogus. We are not all descended from one woman or even 4 or whatever. If we were, we would all be so inbred that we would all be village-idiots with multiple inherited genetic diseases.  I will concede that some small Native American tribes currently living in isolated reservations might be prone to inbreeding, but this is a more recent phenomenon, not something that has lasted thousands of years.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:36:48 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2012, 05:09:39 pm »
From what I've read East Asians are plagued by the same diseases as everywhere else, diabetes, strokes, osteoporosis, etc. but somehow they have lower rates of obesity. Even if they have larger pancreases or whatever, that doesn't seem to make them any healthier.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 05:12:47 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2012, 07:57:40 pm »
Fallon quoted Howell, so we really have just one secondary source at best and it looks like he didn't cite any primary sources--here's a quote of his on it in which he didn't cite any references:
Quote
16. The pancreas and salivary glands of Asians on a heat-treated, high carbohydrate rice-type diet, is relatively about 50% heavier than that of Americans. This hypertrophy (enlargement) of the pancreas and salivary glands is in response to the higher intake of enzyme-deficient carbohydrate foods and has also been confirmed in laboratory animals. http://www.phoenixhealth.me/howell_sum_1.htm
That's not very promising, though I'm still mildly interested. It would be a bit interesting to find out that there is a difference and it would also be kind of neat to disprove Sally Fallon's poorly supported claim that no one else has apparently bothered to investigate.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 08:04:47 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2012, 03:53:42 am »
...there have been many caucasian mummies dug up here going back further than any american indian remains.

Off topic, but this sounds like a pretty extraordinary claim. I assume you mean in the United States?

Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2012, 04:21:32 am »
amerinds and diabetes talked about in sidebar portion of this article.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional-diets/guts-and-grease
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2012, 06:22:58 am »
Off topic, but this sounds like a pretty extraordinary claim. I assume you mean in the United States?
Sounds dodgy to me, too. There was that "Kennewick Man", wasn't there, but it was disproven. There is evidence that the Romans may have colonised South America a little bit and that the Vikings colonised North America a tiny bit well before Columbus, but that's all, afaik.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2012, 07:02:23 am »
Well, this piqued my interest and I did some research of my own. I was not able to find reference to any Caucasian 'mummies', but did find this Discovery Channel documentary called Ice Age Columbus in which the theory is put forward that Europeans crossed an ice bridge from Europe to eastern North American about 17,000 years ago. As evidence they cite

1. A spear point found in Virgina dated to 17,000 years ago that replicates the style of spear point manufacture common to Europe at the time

2. A genetic marker found in supposedly pure-blooded remains of many eastern Native Americans that these populations share with Europeans

I've pasted the documentary below. Folks might find it interesting that the re-enactments portrayed in the documentary show the European colonizers eating all of their meat (and plants) RAW.

Ice Age Columbus, Who Were The First Americans?


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2012, 07:59:31 am »
An "Ice Bridge" all the way from Europe to North America? That's a real stretch. I could accept claims re Romans, Carthaginians or Vikings having slightly intermixed with Native Americans thousands of years later, but the land bridge requires ice all the way to Iceland, then Greenland and, finally, Canada, a rather overly long area.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2012, 08:44:15 am »
Ancient caucasian remains can be found pretty much every part of the world.

I will list some mummies that I can find quickly.
Kennewick man, wizards beach man, spirit cave mummies, also skeletons in the humbolds lake bed

also look into legends of the si-te-cah, the warlike red haired enemies of the paiute people. Their legends say these people were chased into the spirit cave and exterminated after a long war

these are just examples which can be proven to be caucasian through skull and bone analysis as well as giveaway clues like red hair.

Theres also plenty of evidence such as megalithic sites throughout north america as well as archaeological finds such as weapons and clothes which I believe could not have been made by the american indians but this is not as solid proof as a skeleton or mummy.

Also many tribes, especially the cherokees clearly have caucasian blood which can be seen just by looking at them.
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Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2012, 08:45:47 am »
An "Ice Bridge" all the way from Europe to North America? That's a real stretch. I could accept claims re Romans, Carthaginians or Vikings having slightly intermixed with Native Americans thousands of years later, but the land bridge requires ice all the way to Iceland, then Greenland and, finally, Canada, a rather overly long area.

Also the bering strait which was a land bridge is how the mongoloid amerinds got here as well I do not know how the caucasoids got here but an ice bridge is not to be instantly ruled out.
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Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2012, 08:54:27 am »
and please do not think that this has anything to do with racism. I acknowledge that all races have their strong and weak points, and even recognizing that, you can't judge a certain person of any race based on those general rules as I have personally experienced.
I believe us white men are inferior to the amerinds in many ways. Our addiction to technology and so called advanced civilization has only brought the world pain and suffering as well as some good things. While my people were cooking food and eating lots of grains and becoming riddled with disease all the while thinking we are so smart, the amerinds were eating raw meat and thriving in harmony with nature. I would choose their way of life over my current situation any day of the week. My life's goal is in fact to live like the amerinds did to very large extent and I have a great deal of respect for them. My belief that white people may have been here first has no bearing on that and should not be taken the wrong way.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 08:59:25 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2012, 09:18:16 am »
*sigh*, I am appalled at the above drivel by the previous poster. First of all, there is plentiful evidence that the Southern American Indians of the North American Continent went in for cultivating grains in a big way, so they were hardly "palaeo". Even the Northernmost American Indians of that particular Continent went in for making lots of pemmican, which consists, partially, of lots of congealed,rendered/cooked animal fat, so they were hardly "rawists".

The Bering Strait is, incidentally, a very tiny fraction of the size required for a land-bridge between Europe and North America. Besides, there are the Aleutian islands which make the Bering Strait a lot shorter than it seems.

As regards Native Americans, they may have eaten a few raw animal foods at times, but they mostly ate cooked foods. Only the Inuit ate a reasonably high proportion of raw animal foods in their diet.

There is also an inferiority-complex among Caucasians which tries to invent ridiculous theories to get away from the fact that Caucasians conquered the Americas. One myth is that Caucasians had supposedly visited the Americas many thousands of years ago. Thor Heyerdahl was one such foolish proponent, since debunked(though evidence exists re Carthaginian and Roman artefacts). The other myth is that the relevant Caucasian in question was supposedly "descended" from a mythical Cherokee "princess" - the idea being that the Cherokee are most known, among NA tribes,  of intermixture with Caucasians.


"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline raw-al

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2012, 10:09:09 am »
Sounds dodgy to me, too. There was that "Kennewick Man", wasn't there, but it was disproven. There is evidence that the Romans may have colonised South America a little bit and that the Vikings colonised North America a tiny bit well before Columbus, but that's all, afaik.

The Vikings were in Northern Newfoundland Island at a place called Vinland. There have been bits of speculation that they visited NA periodically and that is where Columbus had heard the stories that prompted his excursion.

I hadn't heard the Roman part but it kind of makes sense as the locals there do see to have a bit of Romanesque appearance.

Interesting topic as there has been pottery found in South America that was carbon dated to around 12,000 years ago, which puts a wrinkle in some theories.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2012, 10:28:41 am »
I hadn't heard the Roman part but it kind of makes sense as the locals there do see to have a bit of Romanesque appearance.

Interesting topic as there has been pottery found in South America that was carbon dated to around 12,000 years ago, which puts a wrinkle in some theories.
The idea behind Roman/Carthaginian evidence is that the currents in the area make it very easy to travel from North Africa to Brazil. North America is another matter. I could concede that the Vikings might have reached North America a thousand years ago or more, but the notion that there was an "Ice Bridge" between Europe and North America at the time, or even many  thousands of years before, just doesn't ring true.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline raw-al

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2012, 10:37:10 am »
Here is where they stayed in Northern Nfld.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland

It's a museum now.

NA is steadily drifting apart from Europe at a rate of around 6" per annum according to one theory http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/Continental_Drift_and_the_Age_of_the_Earth.htm
Cheers
Al

Offline svrn

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Re: shaolin monks
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2012, 10:55:25 am »
*sigh*, I am appalled at the above drivel by the previous poster. First of all, there is plentiful evidence that the Southern American Indians of the North American Continent went in for cultivating grains in a big way, so they were hardly "palaeo". Even the Northernmost American Indians of that particular Continent went in for making lots of pemmican, which consists, partially, of lots of congealed,rendered/cooked animal fat, so they were hardly "rawists".


where did you hear me discussing the southern north americans? i was clearly only discussing those indians in what is now the USA, not mayans and aztect who clearly cultivated lots of corn. The north american indians ate mostly raw meat with tiny amounts of corn and were known to eat the liver and heart raw right after a kill. Pemmican was mainly a survival food used for storage and travelling their preferred method of eating meat was.

Also you can shut your stupid mouth about me having an inferiority complex. Why dont you look into those mummies I listed before spewing your ignorance and insulting me. Those mummies are incontrivertible proof that white people were here a very long time ago. also look at the pictures of cherokee indians right here at the very top of the page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee. Youd have to be either blind or retarded not to see the caucasian blood in almost all those pictured there.

dont be so full of yourself, you dont know everything and history is much more complex and hidden than you can imagine. Also I have zero guilt about conquering the indians since I wasnt even born in this country so that theory also goes out the window.
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