Author Topic: Should I use milk?  (Read 13774 times)

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Offline Alive

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Should I use milk?
« on: October 20, 2012, 04:50:47 pm »
My family eats a modern diet and to provide them with better nutrition I got into a raw organic milk scheme where I needed to pick up 5 liters per week. My son loved the raw milk but he only consumed 2~3 liters per week, and the rest of the family didn't like it. Since my aim has been to be RP I decided not to have milk myself and so cancelled the raw supply and now buy just supermarket milk for the family.

Now I am wondering if a better idea would be to go back on the raw milk scheme to help my son, and use the excess to make yogurt for myself. Although my body seems to hate sugars and starches, milk does not seem to be a problem for me. This would provide me with more variety while still being living food.

What do you think?


Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 06:35:27 pm »
Supermarket / pasteurized milk for my family is an absolute no no.

Raw Milk for me is a case to case basis, few and infrequent.

I have access to carabao milk in the early mornings in our wet market, but I would only give my children maybe 2x a month, half a liter each child.  Myself, I would taste some of that same milk before I give to my children... you never know... just being a responsible parent.

There was one time I used a raw cow milk fast on my boy to heal him of his intestinal challenges and that worked pretty well for 3 weeks, after that he became constipated and we stopped the fast.  But his bowels became pretty solid consistently.  He gained a lot of healing in those 3 weeks.  So for that case, raw milk was used for healing.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 07:28:23 pm »
milk does not seem to be a problem for me.
Bad luck...! It's probably better to be, or to have become, intolerant to dairy. Of course, milk neither kill us immediately nor necessarily induce problems straight away: if our body is in a state of tolerance, it doesn't react and thus accumulates bit by bit some foreign proteins and other abnormal molecules instead of eliminating them. Severe health troubles may appear years and/or decades later.

But if you have nothing else to eat, it's certainly wiser to eat dairy rather than starve to death.   ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 09:20:36 pm »
Bad luck...! It's probably better to be, or to have become, intolerant to dairy. Of course, milk neither kill us immediately nor necessarily induce problems straight away: if our body is in a state of tolerance, it doesn't react and thus accumulates bit by bit some foreign proteins and other abnormal molecules instead of eliminating them. Severe health troubles may appear years and/or decades later.
Iguana,
That's a load of guana. Some people do very well on dairy, some don't. It depends on the person.

Alive,
I would tend to do the milk for your son. Definitely avoid the store bought crap. That caused me years of misery.

For yourself the yogurt/kefir might be OK, that is up to you. See if your tongue turns white the next day. That indicates undigested stuff gathering in the body.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 09:27:13 pm by raw-al »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 09:25:24 pm »
I don't do well on dairy.  I drink a lot and I'm farting all day and night. I'm just there to taste it for my kids. (who still have the ability to digest it... but not as daily food) Note at the most 2x a month for my kids.

Any more dairy and I've got some lactobacilli probiotics that help me digest dairy. 
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 11:01:59 pm »
Iguana,
That's a load of guana.
Guana? What's that?
Quote
Some people do very well on dairy, some don't. It depends on the person.
Thats about what I said: some are tolerant and some are not. Some digest it easily and some don't. The question is "how long will they do well?" Some do very well on fried potatoes too, but it doesn't mean it's better to digest that stuff than barfing it ASAP.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 11:14:01 pm »
Guana? What's that?
Guano is birdshit from seagulls, "guana" is a deliberate mis-spelling. Guano was used as fertiliser and made many people wealthy in previous centuries:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 11:36:38 pm »
Guana? What's that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano LOL
(P.S. it was a joke, not intended to be taken seriously... Iguana... Guana...)

That's interesting Tyler, because I Googled guanA and it gave me guanO and I did not pick up the switch, although I know it is guanO.

Sort of like lactOse and lactAse, I have to stop and think about it before I say it.

The reason that I said that is that you said:
"Of course, milk neither kill us immediately nor necessarily induce problems straight away: if our body is in a state of tolerance, it doesn't react and thus accumulates bit by bit some foreign proteins and other abnormal molecules instead of eliminating them. Severe health troubles may appear years and/or decades later."

It sounds like you are suggesting that even if dairy doesn't kill you right away it will give you a slow death, unbeknownst to you all the while. Normally chronic disease doesn't come from left field all of a sudden, there are signs and symptoms. You just have to be tuned to them, which is not particularly difficult.

You did not say or imply that some people are fine with it over a long period of time, however, you did clarify your statement in the last post.

And you are correct that if a person is not observant they will gradually build up toxins in the body from dairy and indeed any food that is not appropriate to them. These toxins can result in serious issues down the road.

This is why AV thinks that "detoxing" is a normal state of affairs for everyone. It isn't if you are not consuming toxins and since he tells everyone they can/should drink milk, naturally a lot of people will detox, some worse than others.

Generally it is easy to tell if you are consuming foods that are not digesting. It shows up the next day, as a coating on the tongue, usually white. (it can be a variety of colours BTW which indicate different things). Any deviation from pink (unless you ate something that has a strong coloration like blueberries.
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 11:46:13 pm »
As an example of toxin avoidance, I notice that I will eat a particular food, say some meat for awhile and it tastes excellent. Then if I eat it exclusively or eat too much at once, I will notice that the flavour becomes less intensely tasty and after a bit it starts to taste bad. This is a sign to me to switch to another meat. This doesn't mean I am going to die this year or next, it is just the body's way of signalling that it would like some other nutrients. Later on the taste from that meat may appeal again.

Your body has an innate intelligence, but it needs cues from taste, smell, touch etc to do it's calculations in order to get the nutrition it needs.

I believe that cooking foods and adding spices, fools our system and causes us to eat foods that are not apropos.
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Al

Offline Alive

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 12:05:38 am »
raw-al, my tongue has been constantly coated for years  -\

It seems safest for me to just avoid the milk.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 01:07:41 am »
raw-al, my tongue has been constantly coated for years  -\

It seems safest for me to just avoid the milk.

That's very likely to be a cause or maybe the sole cause.

What I suggest is sip very hot water all day, till your tongue is consistently pink. The water should be as hot as you can stand without burning yourself. Just tiny sips.

You'll find that you will drop 5 to 20 pounds from doing this, as the hot water will tend to warm up and hydrate the body and specifically the GI Tract, increasing blood circulation and softening and liquidating old crap ( technical term for the overused word "toxins") from the lower GI Tract and thus motivating it out of your system more quickly than it would normally.

You'll also notice an increase in urine and it may be dark initially, which means you are downloading "stuff". (another tech term) You'll also notice an increase in defaecation therefore making you feel lighter and more awake, energized and clear minded. You feel this way because now the intestinal walls can get access to the finer products of digestion that includes nutrition for the brain etc.

The faeces may be strong smelling and in various states of liquidity initially, as you expel stuff you've been storing on the walls of your GI Tract for longer than you can remember. I've heard stories of people expelling multicoloured, disgusting stuff along with gas.

Funnily enough often people get the impression that they have gained weight when what has really occurred is that the crap (tech term, doctor speak) that they ate is rotting in their gut, because it is indigestible or there is too much in there, so the peristaltic action of the GI Tract cannot move it around to mix the various digestive fluids into it, to actually digest the food. It could also be that the foods that have been eaten are reacting with each other causing gas. This gas causes their lower abdomen to puff out, so it looks like weight increase.

A classic case of this is eating fruit after a meal. The fruit digests very quickly then sits on top of the other stuff and just bubbles in reaction to the digestive fluids. I suspect cooking food makes this worse.

If you find the coating returning, you are doing something wrong, so eliminate things from your diet till you find the offender.

Some people do this all day, as a habit, (drinking hot water) which I am not sure is necessarily a good idea. If your tongue is pink, that means your digestion is healthy and so continuing to drink or sip the hot water may cause issues in the opposite direction.

This is the difficulty with "internet diagnosing", people taking things to the extreme. "If a little is good then a lot is better" is the resulting thought process with some leading to other issues.

You can also use things like Triphala to clean the system and it works gently and well. Castor works gently and well if done properly. 1 tsp or more before bed. You can do this for a long period if you wish but not more than a month. Tastes gross but works well. : )

One other thing is that the tongue should be pink not red. Red means something else. A pale colour indicates anemia.

It is a good idea to scrape your tongue, but you should do it first thing in the AM after awaking and before eating. Doing it before bed will stimulate the organs and make sleep difficult.

More info is available from some of Dr. Vasant Lad's excellent books starting with "Ayurveda the Science of Self Healing" http://ayurveda.com/shop/science-of-self-healing.html and "Volume 2 Textbook of Ayurveda".

However if you are eating properly and raw paleo you shouldn't need these crutches.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 02:10:20 am by TylerDurden »
Cheers
Al

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 03:43:55 am »
Alive, if you feel milk is good for your child then definitely the grass-fed raw. What to do with the rest? I would ferment it and feed it to my chickens and eat their eggs. ;)

I'm actually serious. Chickens with raw fermented grass-fed whey in their diets seem to produce eggs forever at the same rate as when they were at their supposed peak production age. I personally think it's the  methionine (which is an amino acid needed en mass to make the egg whites and is hard for chickens to come by) and the bacteria as chickens' guts need to have enough good bacteria to keep the chicken producing.

Perhaps get a few more egg layers and you will be able to use that extra good milk to produce another good food.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2012, 10:26:33 pm »
I'd say the biggest long-term problem with milk, even in people who can digest it, is the excessive calciumto-magnesium ratio.

I'd definitely recommend supplementing with magnesium, if you're going to use raw dairy.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2012, 11:48:53 pm »
I'd say the biggest long-term problem with milk, even in people who can digest it, is the excessive calciumto-magnesium ratio.

I'd definitely recommend supplementing with magnesium, if you're going to use raw dairy.
I tried the magnesium experiments using food and supplements. Had nothing but trouble.
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 03:55:20 am »
I'd say the biggest long-term problem with milk, even in people who can digest it, is the excessive calciumto-magnesium ratio.

I'd definitely recommend supplementing with magnesium, if you're going to use raw dairy.
If that were the only problem, it would be the lesser of the evils! For a technical explanation, the FOREWORD to GCB’s book by Dr. Jean Seignalet, Former Intern at Montpellier Hospitals, Senior Lecturer at the University of Montpellier (France) should be read.   
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggforeword.html

Also here amongst a of lot less technical explanations (for a quick search, type “milk” in your browser search window for that long page):
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat3.html
Quote
“What milk to feed a newborn baby?” by Professor J. Lestradet, in Journal of Nutrition and Diet (Cahiers de nutrition et de diététique), March 1982.

“Any kind of milk other than mother’s milk, used in an unaltered state, will cause major disruptions. Differences between types of milk are fundamental.”

As a matter of fact, there is twice as much lactose in human milk as in cow’s milk, and it is known that lactose is vital for brain growth, which is twice as quick in a baby as in a calf. The writer notes that Romulus and Remus couldn’t possibly have been suckled by a she-wolf since there is nine times as much protein in its milk as in human milk. Such a high intake of protein would quickly have proved lethal, since the liver and kidneys, which excrete uric acid, would have been grossly overworked. Such an overload is already at work with cow’s milk in which there is three times as much protein as in human milk. It is to be noted that the liver and kidneys of a bottle-fed child are 30% larger than the very same organs in a breast-fed child.
Cow’s milk doesn’t address calcium absorption better than human milk, although it contains three times as much calcium. Cow’s milk contains five times as much phosphate as human milk, and this causes two-thirds of the calcium to be retained in the gut_the result being that a bottle-fed child tends to have low blood calcium. Further, cow’s milk, whether formulated or not, contains iron and this enhances the growth of pathogenic bacteria (which accounts for excretory smells in the feeding bottle). Using partly skimmed spray-dried milk, one is going the other way and setting up an iron deficiency in the newborn, which is, additionally, worsened since cow’s milk protein irritates the digestive tract and causes microscopic bleeding.
As for salt, which cow’s milk is three times as high in, it is known to cause water retention and high blood pressure. There are grounds for thinking that starting a child out on too much salt could well account for some cases of adult high blood pressure.

Note 1: No need to make a mountain out of a molehill. A human genome is clearly unsuited for animal milk.
Note 2: Understandably, the journal that released the foregoing article banned its publication in a lay book like this one. Everybody needs subsidies from the milk industry.
One is foremost bound by medical secrecy and, in the wake of that, scientific secrecy....

A lot of up-to-date nutritionists such as for example Thierry Soucar http://www.thierrysouccar.com/ have now understood that adults shouldn’t ingest any dairy and that every mammal's species has its own specific milk which shouldn’t be fed to other species (except, of course, to save an individual from starvation in case there’s no other option available). BTW, it’s one of the fundamental pillars of any paleo diet (as outlined by Walter L. Voegtlin, Boyd Eaton, Melvin Konner, Loren Cordain and others) to avoid dairy. AV should urgently review his stance on that matter to remain credible.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 04:19:03 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2012, 04:11:35 am »
I tried the magnesium experiments using food and supplements. Had nothing but trouble.

Would you please share more of what you did and the results Al? Thanks.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2012, 04:37:40 am »
A lot of up-to-date nutritionists such as for example Thierry Soucar http://www.thierrysouccar.com/ have now understood that adults shouldn’t ingest any dairy and that every mammal's species has its own specific milk which shouldn’t be fed to other species (except, of course, to save an individual from starvation in case there’s no other option available). BTW, it’s one of the fundamental pillars of any paleo diet (as outlined by Walter L. Voegtlin, Boyd Eaton, Melvin Konner, Loren Cordain and others) to avoid dairy. AV should urgently review his stance on that matter to remain credible.

Is that the same nutrutionists that said  you shouldn't eat raw meat?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 08:31:39 am by TylerDurden »
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Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2012, 04:44:19 am »
Would you please share more of what you did and the results Al? Thanks.
There was a thread about that not too long ago, so I decided to try eating foods with a lot of magnesium, (pumpkin seed and some other things... I think) and then the chemical form of magnesium, and If my memory serves there was a suggestion to apply it on the skin which I did. Anyways the results were disappointing.

Also I have no way of knowing if the Mg was/is a problem other than having a blood check which I am not interested in.

I do recall the discussion in that the markers for low Mg were the same as the markers for excess Mg, and I seem to recall you explained that. It's all in that thread.
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2012, 04:50:30 am »
Is that the same nutrutionists that sat you shouldn't eat raw meat?

I don't know, Al, but if if they talk about grain and garbage fed meat, they are probably right because it shouldn't be eaten raw (and even perhaps it shouldn't be eaten at all!). Did you read both pages I gave the links for? Judging by the elapsed time till you replied to my above post, I guess you didn't. You should really read it.

Cheers
François
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 04:52:47 am »
Bottom line, milk is a controversial topic, there have been huge discussions on it going nowhere, some like it some don't. So try and see if it's fine for you, there's no better way to figure out your "Should I use milk" dilemma. Let's move on with our lives now.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 04:55:53 am »
Yes, and after 20 years with milk followed by 20 years without and again 20 years with you'll be able to compare the results.  ;) -d
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2012, 08:40:09 am »
Iguana, that 2nd quote about bottle-fed babies having enlarged organs reminds me of Dr Howell's assertion in the 1930s that humans on cooked food diets needed pancreases the size of a horse's pancreas in order to produce enough enzymes to digest the cooked food properly.

Oh, by the way, Aajonus does not advocate a raw, palaeolithic diet. He openly admits that his prescribed diet is in no way natural or palaeo. The term "raw, palaeolithic diet" was more or less invented by Vinny Pinto, a guru who peddles semi-cooked/semi-raw diets(and psychic healing over the phone etc.!), a term he used to describe any raw diet involving consumption of raw meats. I then duly used the term "raw, palaeolithic diet" in a more literal sense to refer only to a raw version of the Palaeolithic Diet.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 08:45:11 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2012, 10:50:29 am »
If that were the only problem, it would be the lesser of the evils! For a technical explanation, the FOREWORD to GCB’s book by Dr. Jean Seignalet, Former Intern at Montpellier Hospitals, Senior Lecturer at the University of Montpellier (France) should be read.   
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggforeword.html

Also here amongst a of lot less technical explanations (for a quick search, type “milk” in your browser search window for that long page):
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat3.html
A lot of up-to-date nutritionists such as for example Thierry Soucar http://www.thierrysouccar.com/ have now understood that adults shouldn’t ingest any dairy and that every mammal's species has its own specific milk which shouldn’t be fed to other species (except, of course, to save an individual from starvation in case there’s no other option available). BTW, it’s one of the fundamental pillars of any paleo diet (as outlined by Walter L. Voegtlin, Boyd Eaton, Melvin Konner, Loren Cordain and others) to avoid dairy. AV should urgently review his stance on that matter to remain credible.

I don't know, Al, but if if they talk about grain and garbage fed meat, they are probably right because it shouldn't be eaten raw (and even perhaps it shouldn't be eaten at all!). Did you read both pages I gave the links for? Judging by the elapsed time till you replied to my above post, I guess you didn't. You should really read it.

Cheers
François
Francois,
The first link is to a book, so I cannot read that without buying it, having it translated etc.
The next two links;
First was about a discussion where the author started off with the proposition that all humans are intolerant to milk as per the following quote:
"There is quite some evidence in favour of this, else how could one explain :
adult intolerance to cow's milk"

When someone starts off with a false proposition it can't be worth reading the rest.
Second there was a very lengthy discusion which started out with a discussion about the taste of pineapple, then went on to Thanksgiving turkey dinner, vodka, opium, whisky, natural medicine, tokes, brownies and thenst onto, poppy seeds and finally the following statement which I would hardly characterize as something intelligent:

"_And yet, milk is natural!

o Wrong: Cow’s milk is natural for calves, not for man!"

That's hardly proof of anything.

Whenever I see an author dismiss an entire food group, I get suspicious. This person is talking off the top of their head, with answers that have a pseudo scientific sound to them.

Sounds suspiciously like the vegetarian, fruitarian, breatharian, cooked food, pro-milk, anti-milk rants I have seen here and elsewhere. Our teeth aren't sharp enough, Our digestive tracts are too long, our stomachic fluids are not strong enough, you know the vege rants.

I get it. You don't like milk. That does not mean you are correct in asserting that anyone who drinks milk is gonna die either slowly or quickly.

This topic gets sillier every time it gets argued.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 10:58:39 am by raw-al »
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2012, 10:59:15 am »
Bottom line, milk is a controversial topic, there have been huge discussions on it going nowhere, some like it some don't. So try and see if it's fine for you, there's no better way to figure out your "Should I use milk" dilemma. Let's move on with our lives now.
Amen already!
Cheers
Al

Offline Chris

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Re: Should I use milk?
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 05:05:32 pm »
My family eats a modern diet and to provide them with better nutrition I got into a raw organic milk scheme where I needed to pick up 5 liters per week. My son loved the raw milk but he only consumed 2~3 liters per week, and the rest of the family didn't like it. Since my aim has been to be RP I decided not to have milk myself and so cancelled the raw supply and now buy just supermarket milk for the family.

Now I am wondering if a better idea would be to go back on the raw milk scheme to help my son, and use the excess to make yogurt for myself. Although my body seems to hate sugars and starches, milk does not seem to be a problem for me. This would provide me with more variety while still being living food.

What do you think?

ALIVE, you can't save anybody who doesn't want to save themselves. Even if it's in your own family. Let them make their own decisions, and let them learn for themselves. I know its hard. But, you can't force feed info to someone who is not listening. Don't worry about them, just worry about you! Hopefully they learn a thing or two from you! That's all you can do. Maybe one of these days they will come around? Everybody is on their own journey. Your journey has taken you here. It's OK if their Journey has a different path. Let them go. Preaching never helps. But, practicing what you preach can change people's perceptions. Keep doing what you're doing! You're setting an example if you know it or not.

 

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