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Offline Dr. D

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Low-carb limbo
« on: July 06, 2013, 07:38:25 am »
http://primalnorth.blogspot.com/p/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html

I found this very interesting. Do you think we can achieve those ketone blood levels by 'feel'? Perhaps we can because we eat raw, since raw seems to return ones instinct for food? Its a long read but interesting if you know little about ketosis like I did before. Perhaps those that are more freq. ZC can shed light on his flaws?
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline van

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2013, 11:36:25 am »
You ask can we by feel...   I think so.  One has to be patient though to be fully keto-adapted.  It can also be difficult to sense how much keto reserves we have when exercising.  Sometimes we just have to work through feeling lazy or not thinking we have enough energy.   I also think he should have mentioned (more) about eating too much protein, thus taking one out of keto adapting, because excess is turned into glucose and thus will raise insulin and hence pull one out of the keto process.  Also the by products of burning excess protein is toxic to the body.   
   I thought the description of these slow burning starch gels was interesting, and made me thought of what is already in nature that is similar?  Maybe avocados, maybe coconut ground so finely it's like a creme or gruel ( which I've been doing, adding in extra coconut oil ).  Pumkin and flax seeds (spouted) seem to not raise my insulin when used as snacks.   
   So finding enough fats that the body looks forward to eating as opposed to forcing one's self to eat to get to a certain level is important.   For instance,  I love bone marrow.  But if I eat too much with meat,  it really slows down my digestion... And when I eat it all by itself,  my body quickly tells me that I don't want as much as my head would tell me to eat to up my fat stores. 

Offline eveheart

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2013, 12:13:29 pm »
I don't sense my ketone-ness by feel, but when I get an insulin spike, I sure can feel it as lethargy and hunger. I go strictly by right amounts, but without weighing or counting grams - I know how much meat is okay in a meal and how much a proper serving of carb-containing food is. I eat fat at all other times, mostly beef fat or marrow, but in a pinch, coconut oil or butter will do.

Primal North's article focused on athletes, and I admit that I don't understand his differentiation between keto-adaptation and fat adaptation, but I admire his stance that you don't need cheat days or other forms of carb-loading. I do very-low carb, moderate protein, and high fat to prevent insulin spikes, keeping my blood sugar levels within a normal range. It took me a phenomenal amount of discipline to commit to this method of controlling high blood sugar without medication, but the overall health benefits are astounding, leading me to conclude that this is right for me.

Here's a quote from Primal North that I live by: "To successfully keto-adapt you must decide and commit to ending food as a source of pleasure and seeing it instead as a source of fuel.  You cannot cycle carbs, it is simply not an option.  We are not out to become the next Mr. Olympia (although there is no reason not to try), we are out to reunite with our predator heritage and become the alpha-pack hunter species on the planet we evolved to be."

I have been criticized by a forum member for saying that I don't eat for pleasure, but that misses the point. I enjoy what I eat - pleasure is not absent, but it is no longer the object of eating.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2013, 12:17:18 pm »
I'm noticing the same thing too. I have suet and its bland. So I dip it in a little honey. I have no more than 1/2 teaspoon of honey per 1/2 pound of fat. I don't think that should stop my keto adaptation.

Plus I do need to find other fat sources. I don't want to trust that suet will be best for me long run. I don't do well on vco. Any more than a teaspoon and the toxins cause my body to reject it. Maybe raw butter? That's gotta be way more than $3.00/lb. I love cooked butter so I'm sure I'd like raw. I try and eat as much salmon as my wallet allows, about 4-6 oz a day. I get the Costco wild Alaskan sockeye salmon for about $10 /lb. IIRC. I can't find it that cheap online. And it says its wild so I can't imagine it'd be bad. I know that's a good source of unsat fats.

do the dog bones usually pay per pound of marrow? As in, if I pay 1.50 per pound does that make the marrow come out to like $10 /lb. That's nice and buttery and i know id love that.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2013, 12:33:47 pm »
I have been criticized by a forum member for saying that I don't eat for pleasure, but that misses the point. I enjoy what I eat - pleasure is not absent, but it is no longer the object of eating.

I noticed that today about myself for the first time in a long time. I was eating salmon and thought, I didn't think I'd be here, and I enjoy this, but more importantly I know it fuels my body. And I thought, I really have come to the point where I will do whatever I can to get healthy. Few people do that in this life. We on this forum really have a different perspective. I believe eating raw has an interesting paradox. It requires the eater to stop addictions but it also stops addictions. My coffee and adderall use kept me from finishing off my sugar use. Pretty much all three crippled together a week ago. It wasn't even that hard either. I feel like eating raw just gave me the perspective to decide it wasn't good for me so I stopped.

Back to keto adaption: I hope I'm able to complete this effectively with correct minerals with the food sources I have right now. It's hard to find variety. I feel like eating some spinach for mg or something since I don't have oysters or scallops right now. I was eating minimal fruit for the last month and didn't feel STRONG like I should. So I figure I may need to go all keto like this article describes. I may have been in limbo since I only had a little bit of glucose but had a strong desire to eat a lot of muscle meat. Now I'm craving more fat. I wonder how long it'll take til I feel amazing.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Haai

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2013, 01:19:14 pm »
Spinach is relatively high in oxalic acid, an antinutrient. It binds to minerals such as Ca and Mg to form oxalate salts (which can lead to kidney stone formation). I would avoid it personally.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2013, 08:19:39 pm »
That's right. I remember now. Ya. Damn veggies and the deaths they cause. The practically warn you themselves with their horrible taste.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline 24isours

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2013, 08:57:27 pm »
I read this article a while back and enjoyed it. Here is a quote from the article that really rang a bell for me as I was stuck in the 'Low Carb Limbo' myself:

 "On one side of the wall is the "mostly glycogen" burning way of eating, on the other side is the "mostly ketone" burning way of eating.  In the middle? A mine field of low carb limbo."

Too much glycogen from either protein or carbs will put you into this low carb limbo of constant keto adapting due to gylcogen depletion.

Quote
Primal North's article focused on athletes, and I admit that I don't understand his differentiation between keto-adaptation and fat adaptation, but I admire his stance that you don't need cheat days or other forms of carb-loading.

The difference between being fat adapted and keto adapted is quite simple. He is saying that on a normal diet (high in carbs/calories) our bodies will always oxidize some fatty acids along with glycogen to fuel our muscles; making most people that exercise on a high carbohydrate already somewhat fat adapted. Also, while being somewhat fat adapted on a high carbohydrate, high calorie diet you will not be using any ketones during exercise to fuel the muscles.

If you lower your calories enough on a high carbohydrate diet you will become even more fat adapted, while the body will start using more fat and even small amounts of ketones to fuel your muscles if the amount of calories consumed is low enough (say, just enough calories for the metabolism to run but not enough extra for energy). You will gain more access to fat stores and ketone production by limiting calories because less glycogen will be available to fuel the muscles.

Once you make that switch to getting the majority of your calories from fat (assuming protein intake and carb intake is low enough), he is saying the muscle fuel mix will be almost a 50/50 mix of fatty acid oxidation and ketones. Glycogen use will be minimal.

Quote
I hope I'm able to complete this effectively with correct minerals with the food sources I have right now.

It seems like a lot of members on here are worried about minerals. I seem to be doing fine with just a small amount of organ meat mixed in with my muscle meat as well as an extra 2 teaspoons of salt every day for the past year or so.
3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2013, 11:29:49 pm »
And I've been eating a lot of fat and cutting my carbs drastically. Today is day 6 and I feel better than yesterday, but tired because of sleep dep. I may have pyroluria also. But I'm sure i was mg deficient because my joints were very sore two days ago and yesterday I supplemented with a lot of mg and barely got the runs. When we don't feel good we assume its a lack of something, especially when we eliminate so much.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 02:07:30 am »
@ 24isours: I understand perfectly what you wrote about fat- vs. keto-adaptation. You should be the ghost-writer for Primal North. Thanks for your explanation.

@Dr. D: I am actually a guinea pig - I have been reading this forum for 2 1/2 years, and I've tried pretty darn near every single thing that has been mentioned, no matter how extreme it sounded at first. I've also read every book that has ever been published with the words "miracle cure" in the title. (I re-read what I just wrote, and I got the impression that I'm trying to come off as an expert. Just remember that I'm an expert guinea-pig, nothing more than that.) All that long-winded introduction to say: look into other things besides magnesium for sore muscles - my first guess would be sunshine and vitamin D3. Others here might have good guesses, too, and magnesium might give you quick a palliative effect, but I don't think it's the big player. And yes, there is a book called Magnesium: The Miracle Cure. It's like the "for Dummies" series - there is a book for every vitamin and mineral discovered by man..
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 04:38:47 am »
Well, I stopped keto adaptation today. Gonna stay low carb raw paleo for the summer. Here's why.

work has started so I'm outside and doing all Physical labor for 8+ hours a day. I get sunshine so I know its not vit d deficiency.

also, I took a mg and potassium supplement today and I felt overdose symptoms of each (runs and stomach cramp), so I don't think I was deficient in each.

It's possible zero carb isn't for me but I feel like I could do it if I could figure out what the joint pain and stiff stool was. I'm almost considering pyroluria as an issue, so for now, ill go omnivorous and figure it out.

In terms of this article, I'm going to stay somewhere around 50g of carbs a day, to make sure I don't hit limbo, restoring glycogen daily but staying fat adapted, as I think most of us are here, since meat so good.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 12:38:14 pm »
I'm still not settled on this idea of limbo. Essentially the article is saying, if you are in the 5-30g/day of carbs group, then you are probably in limbo. More and you can hit a CKD, but I think he says about 50g per day and less will have you leaning on limbo, including one day a week where you glycogen load with ~150-200g of carbs. I personally find glycogen loading to be counteractive to training ketone use, but some people seem to fare well.

Also, as I am reading through Lex's journal (what a gold mine!) I see he advocates for a mostly animal diet and only about 1 piece of fruit or a salad daily. This would clearly leave someone in the 5-30g of carbs/day group. This is blatantly contradictory to the article.


So here's my question: Who's right; Lex or Primal North?

P.S. Eve: I understand what you mean now about it not being Mg. I don't think it was any vit. deficiency. Perhaps a mineral deficiency or perhaps thats just my response to losing carbs. I want to try again asap because the more I read I feel like carnivory would be great. But I would also rather not miss out on the world of a little sugar whilst young. ;) You said you are low-carb, mod. protein, high fat? What's your approx macronutrient breakdown?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 10:44:59 pm by TylerDurden »
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 10:42:27 pm »
P.S. Eve: I understand what you mean now about it not being Mg. I don't think it was any vit. deficeincy. Perhaps a mineral deficiency or perhaps thats just my response to losing carbs. I want to try again asap because the more I read I feel like carnivory would be great. But I would also rather not miss out on the world of a little sugar whilst young. ;) You said you are low-carb, mod. protein, high fat? What's your approx macronutrient breakdown?

I limit protein to about 4 - 5 oz at a meal, and usually eat two or three of these servings in a day. Animal carbs come from liver and oysters, etc. My plant foods are incidental from seaweed, fermented vegetables and fermented vegetable juice, avocado, sometimes coconut. I eat fat whenever I want.

As you can see, I am not big on numbers and calculations.

My decision to eat low carb is based on recommendations for managing high blood sugar and other ailments that I have. I'm not sure I'd be so strict otherwise. When I first started RPD, I didn't restrict carbs (except for the obvious restriction on grains and legumes), but my blood tests were not as good as I wanted. I consider everything to be temporary,  experimental, and subject to sudden and radical change.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 11:15:07 pm »
Thank you. That's good info. However, I still feel inconclusive on the low carb limbo issue. Yes, things like eggs and oysters can provide 10 g of carbs in an average sitting, But I'm not sold that all carbs are the same.

I guess the best I can do is experiment and see what works for me, trying my best to maintain consistency, something I find hard to do in the plant world.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline 24isours

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 11:30:31 pm »
I'm still not settled on this idea of limbo. Essentially the article is saying, if you are in the 5-30g/day of carbs group, then you are probably in limbo. More and you can hit a CKD, but I think he says about 50g per day and less will have you leaning on limbo, including one day a week where you glycogen load with ~150-200g of carbs. I personally find glycogen loading to be counteractive to training ketone use, but some people seem to fare well.

Also, as I am reading through Lex's journal (what a gold mine!) I see he advocates for a mostly animal diet and only about 1 piece of fruit or a salad daily. This would clearly leave someone in the 5-30g of carbs/day group. This is blatantly contradictory to the article.


So here's my question: Who's right; Lex or Primal North?

P.S. Eve: I understand what you mean now about it not being Mg. I don't think it was any vit. deficiency. Perhaps a mineral deficiency or perhaps thats just my response to losing carbs. I want to try again asap because the more I read I feel like carnivory would be great. But I would also rather not miss out on the world of a little sugar whilst young. ;) You said you are low-carb, mod. protein, high fat? What's your approx macronutrient breakdown?


As far as what I've read the body requires a certain amount of protein to maintain lean muscle. I believe that number is between .8g - 1g protein per kg of weight. Any extra protein will be used as glucose. During Lex's keto experiment he was eating around 80-90 grams of protein as well as 195 grams of fat. He said exercise was very much unappealing to him, which was exactly how I felt when I was in 'Low Carb Limbo'. I don't think Lex was eating enough fat to maintain energy levels. If you notice, he loses weight on the diet, which makes me think he was using his own body fat as fuel. Also, his protein seemed a little bit high (90g) and some of this was most likely converted to glucose. Soon after, he dropped his protein intake down to 70g - which was low enough for him to decide to go back to higher protein and lower fat. Maybe if Lex were to eat more fat (220+ grams) and keep his protein around 70-75 grams he would have done better on the diet?
3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline 24isours

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 12:16:39 am »
Thank you. That's good info. However, I still feel inconclusive on the low carb limbo issue. Yes, things like eggs and oysters can provide 10 g of carbs in an average sitting, But I'm not sold that all carbs are the same.

I guess the best I can do is experiment and see what works for me, trying my best to maintain consistency, something I find hard to do in the plant world.

Ten grams of carbohydrates will most likely not set off 'Low Carb Limbo', as I hear of many  people staying in ketosis with such small amounts of carbohydrates because they are used up rapidly.

I think the point he is trying to make is to stay away from such an amount that will cause the glucose to be thrown into storage; as enough glycogen will supply the muscles with fuel instead of ketones, eventually causing the body to flush the ketones and use its usual first choice of stored glycogen.
3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 07:47:50 am »
I see your point and I think I'm settling into an idea of it. I see what Lex was after and that his downfall may have been too much protein, which got converted to glycogen via GNG, keeping him in limbo.

Does that mean you believe GNG happens only after your body's basic protein need is filled, rather than Lex's idea of up to 58% of ALL consumed protein can be turned into glycogen?

I've always been of the idea that EXCESS protein is what causes the GNG. So if I only need 60g of protein for basic needs that day, and I eat 70g, then 10g is up for GNG use with a possible 58% (54%? I dont remember) return into glycogen, so a potential 5g of carbs. Being way over at 100g would potentially convert 40g of protein into approx. 20g of carbs (glycogen) leaving one in a low-carb limbo, like it seemed like Lex was in for a long time. Later on he says he lowers protein a little and ups his fat to 80% with a total calorie intake of 2200 and he said he liked that better.

Now, I'm still unsure if during keto-adaptation, if one plans on remaining omnivorous with 1-2 pieces of fruit daily (10-20g of carbs) one should continue to consume that many carbs, in hopes the body will adapt to ketones, or will the body just continue to try and run on few carbs until they are depleted for a time? Then, after a time in ketosis (ketonuria) one could add back in a low amount of carbs, infrequently, without any side effects of re-adapting?

This is where it gets tough. It seems to me that its best to either do well on carbs and do a CKD to remain low-carb most of the time with a loading time (which I don't find loading on carbs to be that "energizing" so I question this process anyways) or just go full carnivorous. The tricky thing is, a keto-adapted person can consume 10g of carbs with no issue, and someone can stay glycogen adapted living on a low-carb diet in the 30g/day area? So does it just come down to consistency? Is low carb limbo when the keto-adapted person consumed x amount of carbs (x is low-carb limbo inducing) daily and then his body decides that glycogen is preferred over ketones, regardless of the amount of fat? Can this change if someone is keto-adapted for 4 months vs. a year? Lex didn't seem to be in ketonuria when he upped his fat, since he became really fatigued and was overdoing his protein amount, according to many who are fully in ketosis.  So was his body hanging onto the glycogen from excess protein?

Considering excess protein forming glycogen, and not having the experience to do well, would I lose too much muscle mass if I went to 100% fat for 2 days, then added 10g of protein extra each subsequent day (3rd-10g, 4th-20g, 5th-30g, etc) trying to demand of my body to use those ketones more quickly instead of sacrificing the protein into glycogen?

I know this post has about a million questions, but I was just naming them as I thought of them. Take what you like and if my head is still spinning I'll re-emphasize a question.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2013, 07:54:51 am »
Quote
There is no fine line you can straddle, but an entire range you need to stay out of.  Sisson was right in his carb curve when defining 100 to 150 grams a day as required for highly active people.  Phinney and Volek are ALSO right when defining a very low carb range of about 20 grams a day or less combined with adequate dietary fat and low protein intake to provide enough ketones to preferentially burn ketones over glycogen for energy during exercise.

There is a HUGE GAP between those two ranges and sadly that gap is PRECISELY where everyone keeps trying to be and why they keep failing.  If low carb limbo is the minefield between the two security walls, for some reason everyone thinks they can straddle the minefield on a daily basis and not reap the inevitable results.

so 20-100g of carbs is bad. It seems many on this forum advocate for about that many carbs. Granted its way smaller than SAD (2k cal/day, 80% carbs, 400g carbs/day).

I'm wondering if those who maintain on 50g approx of carbs daily have the low-carb limbo issues or if they have a huge carb day once in a while to refill glycogen stores, or if they are mostly ketone burners?
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline 24isours

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2013, 09:22:28 am »
Quote
I see your point and I think I'm settling into an idea of it. I see what Lex was after and that his downfall may have been too much protein, which got converted to glycogen via GNG, keeping him in limbo.
Well that and not enough fat. Since he probably wasn't eating enough fat, he was most likely breaking down muscle for fuel as well - which I'm pretty sure is even more taxing on the body than gluconeogenesis.

Quote
Does that mean you believe GNG happens only after your body's basic protein need is filled, rather than Lex's idea of up to 58% of ALL consumed protein can be turned into glycogen?

From what I've read and my experience, yes. When you read about the process of gluconeogenesis kicking in - it is always mentioned as the body's last resort preference to obtain fuel. So, why would the body convert around half of ALL protein consumed into glucose if it is taxing on the body? Most likely it wouldn't if there is enough fuel coming in elsewhere.

Also, a point to mention - how can the body be using ketones as fuel while there is glucose floating around the bloodstream from protein? Keep in mind the body can also make glucose from ketones. (acetone). I mention this just because some people say the body can't run without glucose. Anyway, you can read about that here if you'd like:
(http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2012/01/we-really-can-make-glucose-from-fatty.html)

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Now, I'm still unsure if during keto-adaptation, if one plans on remaining omnivorous with 1-2 pieces of fruit daily (10-20g of carbs) one should continue to consume that many carbs, in hopes the body will adapt to ketones, or will the body just continue to try and run on few carbs until they are depleted for a time? Then, after a time in ketosis (ketonuria) one could add back in a low amount of carbs, infrequently, without any side effects of re-adapting?

I'm not sure about this as I've never experimented with adding in low amounts of carbs to my ZC diet but here is something interesting:

Dr. Phinney (author of 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living') claims he stays in ketosis and his diet consists of the following:

"I stay between 25 and 50 grams of carbohydrate a day.  I eat a moderate amount of protein.  It’s not a high-protein diet. I eat 2800 calories a day, and so if moderate protein is 500 to 600 calories a day and carbohydrate is around 100 calories a day, I’m eating over 2,000 calories of fat to maintain my body weight.  I run in the 70 – 80% of energy intake as fat."
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So, this would mean he eats around 125-150 grams of protein but you have to keep in mind cooking protein denatures it; 50% of it I've read is unable to be utilised, which would obviously make less protein available (62-75g) for conversion to glucose. This would put him in the maintenance zone for protein; meaning just enough to maintain lean mass and not be converted to glucose. This makes sense because I've noticed I can eat a lot more cooked protein (around double) without getting sick from excess protein. If I eat around 90g+ of raw beef, the protein makes me sick.

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This is where it gets tough. It seems to me that its best to either do well on carbs and do a CKD to remain low-carb most of the time with a loading time (which I don't find loading on carbs to be that "energizing" so I question this process anyways) or just go full carnivorous. The tricky thing is, a keto-adapted person can consume 10g of carbs with no issue, and someone can stay glycogen adapted living on a low-carb diet in the 30g/day area? So does it just come down to consistency? Is low carb limbo when the keto-adapted person consumed x amount of carbs (x is low-carb limbo inducing) daily and then his body decides that glycogen is preferred over ketones, regardless of the amount of fat? Can this change if someone is keto-adapted for 4 months vs. a year? Lex didn't seem to be in ketonuria when he upped his fat, since he became really fatigued and was overdoing his protein amount, according to many who are fully in ketosis.  So was his body hanging onto the glycogen from excess protein?

Technically a CKD wouldn't really be ketogenic diet. You are loading up on carbs to use glycogen to fuel your workouts. Once that glycogen runs out you have to reload up on carbs to avoid limbo.

Take a look at this:

"Say, you are fully ketoadapted - i.e have been eating a very low carb (some days zero carb) diet for months and feel great on it.
What happens if one day you eat a bunch of carbs (eg 100g in one go). How does your body react? Is it the same as someone who eats carbs every day (over 200g) and if not how does the body response differ? Will you continue to be keto adapted the next day, when you go back to ultra low carb?

And what if you don't just have one load of carbs, but raise your carbs for a couple of days, eating them throughout the day. Will you become glucose adapted, and then have to go through the couple of weeks it takes to be keto adapted all over again?

I've been dying to understand all this, and would appreciate any help!!"

Here is the answer:

"It's a matter of enzymes. When you're keto-adapted, you have induced the proper enzymes to utilize fats for energy and you are able to obtain required glucose by gluconeogenesis from glucogenic amino acids and glycerol. If you are doing zero-carb or something close to it, you will have down-regulated the enzymes required to process carbohydrate.

For that reason, if a very-low-carber has a glucose tolerance test, the results will be skewed. He/she simply will not have the enzymes available to process the glucose properly. That's why the doctor will recommend eating 100 carbs per day for about three days prior to a glucose tolerance test. It takes about that long to get the carb-processing enzymes back and functioning efficiently in the gut.

Just one day of eating 100 grams of carbs shouldn't have much effect. Because of the extra insulin requirement and a carb-induced boost in your glycogen stores, you can expect a temporary gain in water weight. Eating extra carbs long-term will switch you back to the extra insulin release leads to insulin resistance leads to fat storage mode. Which is why you can't lose weight on low-carb and maintain the weight loss on low-fat/low-calorie.

If you then go back to low-carbing, the transition to keto-adaptation should be much quicker. The body has a memory for things it has experienced before. However, because of that, you will not experience the high degree of metabolic advantage that newbie low-carbers enjoy. That may be why people say that with low-carbing you get "One Golden Shot." Low-carb still works, but after the first time it works more slowly and it's much less common to see rapid, huge weight losses."

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Considering excess protein forming glycogen, and not having the experience to do well, would I lose too much muscle mass if I went to 100% fat for 2 days, then added 10g of protein extra each subsequent day (3rd-10g, 4th-20g, 5th-30g, etc) trying to demand of my body to use those ketones more quickly instead of sacrificing the protein into glycogen?

I'd recommend eating a low amount of protein (for maintenance), say 50 grams to start with enough fat to make you feel well. From there you can slowly experiment by adding in more protein.



3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

Offline Haai

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 05:17:15 am »
50% of it I've read is unable to be utilised

Where did you read this?
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline 24isours

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Re: Low-carb limbo
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2013, 08:51:39 pm »
Where did you read this?

It was cited by Dr. Gabriel Cousins based on research done at the Max Planck Institute in Germany. I can't seem to find this study anywhere. If you really research into the effects cooking has on protein, you will find that a good part of the protein does in fact become insoluble when heated. The longer its heated the more insoluble it becomes.

3 Years on a Strictly Raw Ketogenic Carnivorous Diet.
*Currently still on a Ketogenic diet but have now incorporated raw vegetables.

 

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