Author Topic: What's the word on homeopathy?  (Read 7432 times)

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Offline jesterhead

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What's the word on homeopathy?
« on: July 28, 2013, 05:44:11 am »
I am interested in the results that people have gotten here from using homeopathy.

I've never tried a homeopathic remedy myself, but I'm skeptical to begin with. People I have met that are into and promote homeopathy always seem to have a new-agey thinking on health. Since this forum is more rational minded, I am wondering what people's results with homeopathy have been, whether good, bad, or no effect.

I just see water memory as a sham. I don't see how something can have a therapeutic effect without having any molecules left of the original substance. The only research I've been able to find on water memory is some hardcore physics papers, which I don't understand a bit. I love naturopathic philosophy and herbal medicine, so many issues with homeopathy tho.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 07:00:59 am »
I tried homeopathy  quite a bit before I went rawpalaeo. It was rather good, imo, at temporarily removing certain symptoms, but it never had a permanent effect re removing such symptoms. So, I think there's something to it, but not as much as homeopaths claim.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 01:59:57 am »
I posted about my experience and observations with homeopathy here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/msg20540/#msg20540

Most truly homeopathic remedies contain 100% processed lactose or sucrose (otherwise known as sugar pills), usually lactose, or alcohol and/or water (if liquid), with zero active ingredients (the ones that contain active ingredients, such as Airborne, are not considered truly homeopathic by homeopaths and don't fit with the theory behind homeopathy). The lactose or other inert ingredient is supposed to absorb the "memory" or "vibration" or "electromagnetic energy" (aka  "vital energy") or "spirit-like" essence of active ingredients that are removed from it by hyper-dilution. Homeopathic remedies are even less like natural Paleo foods than many cheap vitamin and mineral supplements, unless one considers highly processed nutrient-poor lactose to be Paleo or lactose to be a vital nutrient.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:49:29 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 04:55:15 am »
I  think it may have some effect if you believe in it. Placebo effect, like most therapies.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 08:04:56 am »
Yup, and the placebo effect is a real mind/body effect.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline eveheart

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 08:27:30 am »
The idea of attenuation, as it is used in homeopathy, has put me in the "definitely a placebo" camp. If attenuation was valid, then we could get all the vitamin D we needed from starlight. Placebos only work when the mind believes in their power.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Poncho

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 07:19:16 am »
Well if were going off of whats being said here, then I'm entirely insane.
But I'm not sure that I am, though I do often consider it haha.
I didn't believe in homeopathy at all, even though I was brought up with it.
I just didn't buy it, and I was never sick enough to actually 'need' it anyways.
Then once I started to need it, and then tried it again, the results were undeniable.
This was in Ottawa.
I went into it laughing at how idiotic people were to believe that water touched with specific energy was capable of doing anything.
Then after a few weeks on it, I noticed results. They werent huge, definitely not.
But they were something, its not a placebo. I think that it just hasnt been mastered yet.
This naturopath brought me some results, but couldnt bring me far enough in my recovery at all.
(I wasn't even eating right, I don't think you can ever really heal properly if you aren't eating right.)
After watching that documentary where they explain about water holding information is a real thing, it made sense to me.
Water holds memory, its structure changes on a microscopic level, its amazing. Watch the documentary haha

So to conclude, homeopathy isn't entirely nonsense, its just not a finished product yet.
There are homeopathic doctors that do it better than the rest, however.
Its just not everyone who can do it, most can't, I'm not entirely sure why some are so advanced.
I have found one, I swear by him.

Offline Iguana

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2013, 05:21:08 pm »
Your testimony is interesting. Are you sure that you got better because of homeopathy? Isn’t it difficult to tell because our body tends to spontaneously self-heal anyway? Wouldn’t have healed it in the same way anyway, without homeopathy?

The controversy about “water memory” is still going on, I think. Jacques Benveniste, the French scientist at the origin of it was a honest guy, AFAIK, and some serious scientists are backing his discovery.

The Wikipedia English page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory about it starts by dismissing it, but below there’s a long explanation which is not so negative.
The French version http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9moire_de_l%27eau seems to be more positive about it and mention that the famous biologist Dr. Luc Montagnier, amongst others, supports the discovery of late Jacques Benveniste – the poor guy died following the harassment he was subject to.  >:   
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Poncho

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2013, 10:21:07 pm »
No no theres no controversy, are some people still claiming there is?
Scientists have physically seen the structure of the water change based on energy around it.
I have seen their footage, its in the documentary.
Yes, I heal spontaneously. Seemingly. But the stagnant periods in between healing, or the periods of regression, have me wondering.
With this new naturopath, my progress is insane.
My body was probably getting better from diet alone, and then the homeopathy was probably a good kick.
I believe that everything is a factor.
Everything good helps, some things (my naturopath) help more effectively than just waiting around.
The point is that the placebo theory may be correct for some unskilled homeopaths, but it isn't true for all of them.

Offline miles

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 05:46:57 am »
If homeopathy was any good, they could show it with at least one peer reviewed study. I don't think there have been any clinical trials showing statistically significant benefits of homeopathy relative to placebo(and there have been studies and trials)..

The scientific method is your friend.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 05:59:37 am »
As I said, the placebo effect is a real (and positive) effect. Placebo effect doesn’t mean ineffective, quite the opposite--placebo effect means a real benefit that occurs via the mind/body/spirit connection within you instead of directly via the specific vehicle being used, such as the homeopathic lactose tablets (see, for example, Healing Back Pain: The Mind-Body Connection by John E. Sarno and Healing and the Mind by Bill Moyers).

The placebo effect reveals the wondrous self-healing power of the mind/body/spirit connection. Having a postive result from a therapy doesn't refute the placebo effect, a positive effect is required for it to be considered a placebo effect.

The homeopath I consulted was a veteran expert, not at all unskilled.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:04:54 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2013, 06:03:33 am »
I don't buy into the placebo effect since the homeopathy tablets I consumed always had a short-term effect. If they had been placebo, only some of them would have worked.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 06:05:56 am »
Not necessarily, since the placebo effect is believed to involve self-healing and self-healing is always possible indefinitely.

It sounds like some folks are going by the old definition of placebo effect as a largely a nuisance or brief effect that interfered with research, whereas the latest science recognizes it as a real self-healing effect:

Placebo research: the evidence base for harnessing self-healing capacities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630827
https://samueliinstitute.org/File%20Library/Knowledge%20Center/Publications/Walach-and-Jonas.pdf

RHR: The Placebo Effect and The Power of Belief in Healing
http://chriskresser.com/the-placebo-effect-and-the-power-of-belief-in-healing

A better term for it would be "the self-healing effect," to more clearly indicate that it’s a measurable phenomena related to the self-repair ability of the body/mind/spirit.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:15:58 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 06:13:52 am »
The latest science is simply wrong. The old theory was always that some aspect of studies always applied to placebo rules, c. 30%, but  if improvements went on beyond that, the placebo claims were nullified.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2013, 06:18:00 am »
Then forget about the term "placebo effect." I'll use "self-healing effect" to indicate what I mean and I hope avoid further tangents about other things I don't mean. Nothing stated so far is inconsistent with a self-healing effect. That doesn't mean that there can't possibly be any benefit from energy vibes in lactose or sucrose tablets, just that we can't rule out the self-healing effect, as Iguana indicated. The potential capacity of the body to heal itself is considered quite substantial by highly respected people like Sarno.

Here's some more research on self-healing:

https://theconversation.com/self-healing-brain-study-offers-alzheimers-hope-14526

A program in contemplative self-healing: stress, allostasis, and learning in the Indo-Tibetan tradition. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19735246

Self-healing interventions for clinical practice: brief psychotherapy with WHEE--the wholistic hybrid of EMDR and EFT.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16290899

BTW, aren't lactose/sucrose-tablet homeopathic remedies considered non-raw-Paleo by the moderators? Wouldn't this thread normally go in one of the non-Paleo sections? I don't care myself, but it's a bit incongruent with the complaints about dairy product discussions.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:40:49 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline jesterhead

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2013, 10:06:05 am »
The Wikipedia article is spot on. Water memory violates all known laws of chemistry.

But yet, some scientists I am passionate about have done research on water memory. Physicist Vladimir Vysotskii does research on biological transmutations in bacteria which is well respected. I have watched a few of his lectures and of others talking about his research (i.e. Edmund Storms). He also published some papers on water memory. Also, the Weston A. Price Foundation website has a ton of articles on homeopathy.

So, I sometimes don't know what to believe about it. :/

When I think about it, I imagine my city tap water. All the things my tap water came in contact with in the recent past. When I pass the water through a carbon filter, some of the impurities are removed. There should be some vibrations left of these molecules if water memory is true.

It is most likely nonsense.
Weston A. Price on obtaining knowledge from primitive cultures:

"It may be not only our greatest opportunity, but our best hope for stemming the tide of our progressive breakdown and also for our return to harmony with Nature's laws, since life in its fullness is Nature obeyed."

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2013, 03:38:28 pm »
PP, the homeopathy topics should of course go into the off-topic section. They should not, however, go into the hot topics forum since there are plenty of homeopathic remedies which do not rely on lactose-/sucrose- tablets. Have you ever heard of Bach Flower tinctures, for example?

The self-healing effect is still a bogus issue. My own experience with homeopathy was that it was near 100% effective in treating specific, isolated symptoms, not just the usual 30% placebo effect. It was just that all effects were only temporary, that's all.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline jesterhead

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2013, 08:18:35 pm »
Yes, I should have posted in the off-topic section. I'm going to pick up some homeopath remedies soon and see if they do anything for me.
Weston A. Price on obtaining knowledge from primitive cultures:

"It may be not only our greatest opportunity, but our best hope for stemming the tide of our progressive breakdown and also for our return to harmony with Nature's laws, since life in its fullness is Nature obeyed."

Offline Wai Kai Zen

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2013, 11:34:49 pm »
I think if you believe in it that your mind can heal something or you dont feel the pain anymore.
This is used by some groups in the east (dont know whether it were monks).

Dont forget how easy the mind can be tricked.. even if you think your fully aware.
Reminder to myself:
Search for truth, not dogma.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 04:19:58 am »
I think if you believe in it that your mind can heal something or you dont feel the pain anymore.
This is used by some groups in the east (dont know whether it were monks).
Thanks for your input, Kaizen. Yes, self-healing has an ancient history in the East. Negative reactions to the notion of self healing are puzzling to me, because I see it as a positive, hopeful and beneficial natural phenomenon (and some see it as also spiritual), and to me it seems that Iguana and Miles are trying to be helpful and honestly sharing.

---

Tyler, Did you really use a homeopathic remedy that had all raw Paleo ingredients?

Yes, I am familiar with Bach Flower Remedies. I used to sell them to customers at a herbal/alternative/health store. The BFR's mostly gathered dust, though that doesn’t say much about homeopathy, because while BFR's are sometimes labeled as homeopathic and there are similarities, they are not truly so as they do not abide by certain homeopathic concepts, such as the law of similars or the idea that curative powers are enhanced via succussion. BFR's were originally made with brandy and the standard ones still contain alcohol, though they developed alcohol-free versions for children.

Are you aware that Samuel Hahnemann, the creator of homeopathy, not only used lactose and sugar in his remedies, but also advocated heated milk as a healthful food to his patients? Apparently, Hahnemann also claimed that chronic diseases did not exist until the advent of modern civilization. These views are similar to those of Weston Price, except that Price saw raw dairy as much superior to heated. I'm surprised you would defend Hahnemann's therapy despite these similarities to Weston Price.

I thought you were a fan of rigorous science and scientific consensus? Surely you know that your personal experience and opinion (which don't appear to match Iguana's, Miles' or mine) are not regarded as a final answer in the scientific method and that the overwhelming consensus on homeopathy is that it is not established as effective and not even scientific?

I've already noted your temporarily beneficial results from homeopathy. Do you think that your semi-positive experience somehow negates the less positive experiences of myself, most of my customers who tried it (and Bach remedies), and others? Shouldn't we look at the overall weight of the evidence and not just your experience, or that of a few other people, and shouldn't our own experience weigh more heavily than someone else's when it comes to our own health?

A brief benefit from homeopathy is rather useless for anything but acute issues. You damn homeopathy with faint praise when you talk about temporarily removing certain symptoms. You’re opinion is at least positive enough, however, that you appear to have found another thing you can somewhat agree with the WAPF on, ironically.

Nothing you've said negates Iguana's point about the possibility of self healing or other cause for some anecdotal improvements. On the contrary, everything you've said fits neatly with that, including temporary improvements.

It's looking like homeopathy and Bach Flower Remedies is something we can agree to somewhat disagree on. We each shared our experiences and others can judge for themselves. If it works for others, fabulous. I'll end with something positive about homeopathy--it keeps us away from the often more damaging physicians and surgeons.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 04:51:52 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline mango

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2013, 08:34:07 am »
i don't have much knowledge on homeopathy or any science to contribute, but i had parents who firmly believed in homeopathy over conventional medicine for about the first 10 years of my life, and i honestly believe that homeopathy is a crock of shit.  saw the "top" homeopath doctors in the area and not once did it help relieve anything.. from the cold, to warts, to digestion issues.. just wasted years of my life with that nonsense.

Offline Iguana

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2013, 03:06:37 pm »
LOL! At least it didn't make it worse... and as Phil said, it kept  you "away from the often more damaging physicians and surgeons."  ;) ;D
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What's the word on homeopathy?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2013, 06:08:43 pm »
I trust my own self-diagnosis way more than any others, and so should anyone else. Doctors, for example, routinely mis-diagnose patients, so it's wiser to trust one's own instincts. My own experience re near-100% improvement in symptoms on a temporary level means there must be something to homeopathy -others might not benefit, in that homeopathy might not have been able to cure their  specific symptoms etc.. The placebo effect, after all, only accounts for a low percentage of outcomes, something like 30% at most I believe?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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