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Messages - Projectile Vomit

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Hot Topics / Re: Sanderson Farms is a bad boy
« on: August 19, 2016, 04:45:42 am »
When my friends who have a larger setup for their commune, started using a similar setup to yours, they noticed significantly less eggs which was also my experience.

Brings up a huge quandary in the livestock world: the tradeoff between quality and quantity. Yes, if you feed animals food that allows them to make higher quality eggs or meat, odds are they will make less of it. On the flip side, if you feed them so as to maximize egg (or meat, or milk) production, you won't end up with as high quality an end product.

Reminds me of a grass farmer I worked with a few years ago in the US northeast who ran a purportedly 100% grass fed dairy. After a few years I asked to see his production rates, and saw his herd of ~70 milkers was producing on average about 19,000 pounds of milk per cow per year, which is good for a grain fed dairy in this area but so high as to be nearly unheard of for a grass-based dairy. Needless to say, after a few conversations with him he finally let on that he wasn't really 100% grass fed and was feeding his cows grain every day to supplement their forage. He kept his stash of grain hidden so that when the buyer (I think he was selling to Horizon's 100% grass fed label) visited they wouldn't see it and so he was always able to pass his inspections.

Off Topic / Re: end times goat
« on: August 13, 2016, 07:41:53 pm »
I think it means you are spending far too much time surfing the net.

General Discussion / Re: Lean Times
« on: August 03, 2016, 06:50:08 pm »
Yes, it is true that some species of tapeworms are very specific in terms of what terminal host they're looking for and if they end up in the wrong one they can't infect it. So if you've eaten infectious tapeworm cysts and didn't end up with a tapeworm, you might have, by luck, eaten one of these species.

General Discussion / Re: Mental Performance RPD
« on: August 03, 2016, 06:47:36 pm »
I would say that mental performance and mental health on a raw omnivorous diet (I prefer this term to 'paleo' because I'm not fond of the connotations and baggage that paleo carries) varies a lot. I have been largely raw since 2003 and am very high functioning. I have a PhD and teach graduate and undergraduate courses at the college level, and run a small consulting company. I like to think I'm pretty sharp, and my students, colleagues, and clients would seem to agree with that assessment. I also have no mental health issues.

Not everyone who has tried a raw omnivorous diet can boast of similar results. If you read through various threads you'll see several wherein folks who have tried this diet are not enjoying much success at alleviating symptoms of (for example) depression, fatigue, and schizophrenia. Judging by some people's outbursts, their less-than-stellar writing skills and their goofy arguments about various things I would also say that eating a raw diet doesn't guarantee mental acuity either.

General Discussion / Re: Lean Times
« on: August 03, 2016, 08:31:17 am »
Chemical dewormers generally treat adult tapeworms that are in the animal's intestines and various nematode/round worms. I don't think a dewormer would kill an encysted larval tapeworm, which is generally in muscle or organ tissue.

I think one issue in this discussion is that there are different tapeworm species being discussed. When you find an adult tapeworm in the intestines of a goat, sheep or cow, it is one of the species that requires mites that live in the soil as intermediate hosts. Basically, the adult ruminant poops out tapeworm eggs, the mites eat the eggs and are infected with larval tapeworms, then the grazing animals eat the mites while eating grass and the larvae can develop into adult tapeworms in their small intestines.

When we see cysts in ruminant tissue, this is a different type of tapeworm that uses ruminant animals as an intermediate host, and uses carnivores or scavengers as terminal hosts. In this case, eggs are released in the feces of the terminal host (a wolf or coyote for instance, or a person), and the grazing animal would eat the eggs in bits of feces while grazing on grass. The eggs would hatch in the grazing animals GI tract and burrow through its gut lining, enter the bloodstream and then migrate to a preferred tissue where it encysts as a larvae and awaits its host's death by predation. Once the tissue is eaten by the terminal host, the larvae finishes its life cycle in the gut of the predator or scavenger and its eggs are pooped out to start the cycle again.

Human beings can also serve as intermediate hosts for certain tapeworms, particularly those that involve pigs as normal intermediate hosts. When a person accidentally eats the eggs of certain tapeworms the larvae can hatch in their GI tract and burrow through the GI wall and enter the bloodstream, where they might end up encysted anywhere. As the article I linked to above shows, folks who carry large burdens of encysted tapeworm larvae can have all sorts of problems. Hence the importance of not eating the feces of pigs or their meat when it's contaminated with feces, or of living anywhere near them really. This can also happen with dogs and other companion animals too, which is a big reason why I'm not interested in keeping pets.

General Discussion / Re: Lean Times
« on: August 03, 2016, 05:27:31 am »
And I would add that the color of the liver in ys' picture looks off to me. If I received a liver that looked like that, I don't think I would eat it. Unless I was just about starving to death and had no other options.

General Discussion / Re: Detox or bad reaction to beef?
« on: August 03, 2016, 05:19:40 am »
Can I ask what symptoms you get when you don't ease your system in to it?

Symptoms vary depending on what else I've eaten within 10 hours of eating the fat, and how active I am. Common symptoms include stomach ache, loose stools, stools that are very green or yellow, or a general feeling of fatigue as my body adjusts to getting a lot more calories than normal from fat instead of from a balance of carbs, protein and fat. The fatigue is especially prominent if I am very active that day, such as doing CrossFit workout a few hours before or after eating the fat or within a couple days of getting most of my daily calories from fat.

1-2 ounces of fat is actually a lot of fat. When you consider how calorie-dense fat is, one ounce of pure fat is usually around 250 kilocalories, and two ounces is around 500 kilocalories. That's a lot of calories to eat at one sitting, no matter what food you're eating. Now granted, suet and back fat aren't 100 percent fat, there's some connective tissue there and some water, but these foods are still extraordinarily calorie-dense so they are very different for your body to process than if you were to eat a large serving of salmon or a leaner red meat like steak that happened to have some fat along its edges or was heavily marbled.

To give a sense for how I balance my meals to avoid feelings of fatigue, when I incorporate raw suet or back fat into a meal so as to achieve the 40-30-30 ratio that seems to work well for me (basically a raw Zone diet, where 40 percent of calories come from raw carbs, 30 percent from raw protein, 30 percent from raw fat), this usually involves just adding 3-5 grams (not ounces) of pure raw fat. This is a small amount, since it takes 28 grams to make an ounce. Realize that other ingredients in a meal, such as raw meats of various sorts and certain raw fruits (like avocados or olives, both of which I like), also contribute fat.

General Discussion / Re: Question for chicken-farming RPDers
« on: August 03, 2016, 02:13:54 am »
I get 144 results and most, if not all, aren't related to what we're looking for.  -\

I get about 400,000 hits using Google, and most on the first few pages seem to be related. Google uses algorithms that tailor search results to the user, so it's not too much of a surprise that my, your and eveheart's results would differ.

General Discussion / Re: Detox or bad reaction to beef?
« on: August 03, 2016, 02:08:46 am »
Always hard to answer questions like this as I'm sure there are all sorts of relevant things you've been eating or doing that you haven't disclosed. At any rate, how often do you eat raw fat like this? Sometimes it takes my body a day or so to get used to eating suet or back fat straight before bile secretion rises to the occasion. When I do eat fat, I will ease into it over a few days rather than eating a huge serving without breaking my GI tract in.

It could also be that the fat you're eating isn't as high quality as you've been led to believe. It's been my experience that many farmers are less than honest about how they raise animals, and vegetables or fruit for that matter. They recognize that they can get a price premium for foods produced to the highest standards, but aren't always willing or able to produce foods to those high standards. I had been buying raw goats milk and goat meat from a producer for the last year-and-a-half who claimed that he raised his goats solely on forage (browse and hay) and promised me on several occasions that he never fed them any grain. Just last weekend while we were chatting at the farmers' market he let it slip that he did feed them some grain, and when pressed he finally admitted that they get a couple pounds of grain per day, which is a sizable share of their daily calories. He even admitted that he didn't buy organic grain, so the grain ration likely contained GMOs. The price premium that went along with claiming to produce 100% grain-free goat meat was obviously too big for him to pass up, even though he made no effort to live up to the promises he made to his customers, including me. Needless to say I will no longer buy from him.

General Discussion / Re: Lean Times
« on: August 02, 2016, 06:44:31 am »
The cysts you're referring to are, as ys alluded, most likely tapeworm cysts. In newly infected or young animals the cysts are typically soft, but as an animal ages the cysts can become calcified. As far as I know, whether the cyst is soft or calcified (hard) they are still infectious. Whether the larvae will attach to your intestine or whether your immune system will fend it off and it will pass through you and die will depend on a lot of things.

I've eaten a sheep liver that had calcified cysts. I ate a couple of the cysts but was never infected with a tapeworm. Once I got a closer look at one and figured out what it was I cut the rest out. The liver tasted fine.

Also watching with interest.

General Discussion / Re: How open are you about your diet?
« on: July 13, 2016, 09:50:31 am »
I'm open about my diet, and will eat most anywhere. The thing with me is that since I'm largely raw Zone these days, most of my meals are salad-like in appearance with all ingredients (raw root vegetables for carbs, raw meat for protein, raw suet and/or olives for fat, some raw greens for phytochemicals) chopped up and sprinkled with a little olive oil or vinegar. So someone might look at what I'm eating and not really think anything of it, because the meat isn't so obvious. I have, on occasion, eaten meals that were made up of largely raw meat or broke a few raw eggs into a glass and downed them and gotten questions, but generally once I tell people I've been eating this way since 2003 they tend not to bother me about it anymore as that seems to quell their fears of immanent illness. And I look good, so that helps too.

General Discussion / Re: First time eating raw chicken, tips/advice?
« on: July 12, 2016, 02:20:54 am »
I've eaten raw chicken, but quite frankly it isn't all that great. The white meat is tasteless, the dark meat very bland and not particularly satisfying.

Like all animals, the quality of a chicken's diet will influence the quality of their fat and meat. A diet dense with phytochemicals from consumed plants and good fats and protein from insects and other invertebrates will yield meat and eggs with a high omega-3 to omega-6 ratio in the fat, and a good density of phytochemicals in the meat itself. A diet high in corn or other grain will lead to fat with an omega-3 to omega-6 ratio heavily skewed towards 6, which is bad, and meat that is largely devoid of phytochemicals.

Personally, the question I would ask the producer is "What percentage of the chicken's daily calories come from corn, or other grain-derived feeds?" If the answer is more than 20 percent, I wouldn't bother buying the chicken. In my experience, it is very hard to find good chicken or eggs available commercially in the US. When you find them, it's usually from a tiny hobby operation just selling surplus. I have an excellent supplier of duck eggs here in Burlington Vermont, but have gone long stretches without eating eggs or poultry because the quality just isn't there.

Journals / Re: eveheart's Journal
« on: July 10, 2016, 03:31:39 am »
Great points regarding egg quality. Good eggs are tough to find. As with beef and other meats, the problem is the commercialization of egg production. A chicken can get 100 percent of its food from most landscapes if there are few enough chickens foraging on a large enough area (and predators are kept at bay). The problem emerges when a producer wants to make money selling eggs. Then you need more chickens to produce more eggs, and larger numbers of chickens can quickly overtax land and their foraged diet needs to be supplemented with commercial feeds. Ducks are better at foraging in temperate climates as they're from here (chickens are originally tropical birds), and geese are better still. If I took up the raising of fowl, I'd probably go for ducks over chickens. There is a producer of duck eggs here in northern Vermont who feeds very little grain (less than 25 percent of his ducks' total daily calories) during the summer months. The eggs are amazing. He's only able to bring about 4 dozen to the farmers market each weekend though, and they're generally sold out within 30 minutes of the market opening. I managed to get 1.5 dozen eggs this morning, but next time I might be too late.

Journals / Re: eveheart's Journal
« on: July 08, 2016, 05:39:02 am »
Rainbow Mealworms and Crickets is a great place to buy live insects from, based on what I've read. I haven't ordered from them yet, but probably will. The idea of raising hornworms as a food source is appealing, as they eat live vegetation and I can taylor their diet to how nutrient dense I'd like them to be.

You might reach out to Inger through the forum's message system. She's the only long-term female VLCer that I know of, either on this forum or on others I've visited at various points. She'd be a great sounding board for some of your ideas. She lives in northern Europe, I believe.

And reflecting on Sabertooth's post, I think we all have a lot to learn about the nutritive value of food, especially raw food. A lot of the 'common sense' that goes along with nutrition emerged in an era where people made a lot of assumptions about what the human body needed and how to deliver those nutrients, and I suspect that a lot of this 'common sense' goes unchallenged and unexamined even among long-time contributors to this forum. The fact that we're even having a conversation about macronutrient ratios proves this point. Carbs are not carbs are not carbs, fats are not fats are not fats, and protein isn't protein isn't protein. There are so many nuances within each of those broad classes of macronutrients that can make a huge difference in how they're metabolized (or not) and how readily our bodies can extract energy and other nutrients from them. If we had a wealthy benefactor who could offer a few million $$$ we could organize some amazing and informative experiments, and learn so much. And there is a lot left to learn, in my opinion.

I thought that a lot of folks here were either ZC or low-carB and had been doing very well for several years following such a diet?  ???

What Geoff (TylerDurden) said. While there are a couple people who've managed to make VLC work over the longer term, they are a tiny minority. Most of us have backed far off that. As someone who is into athletics myself, I've transitioned to something more akin to the Zone Diet with respect to macro ratios, around 40-30-30 favoring carbs. I do go through stretches of maybe a few weeks to a month where I'll go back to VLC, but that's only temporary.

I had that experience too when first starting a very low carb, high fat diet. In my experience it lasts for a month or three, then diminishes. I suspect the euphoria comes from finally giving our bodies the building blocks they so desperately needed for such a long time, particularly fat soluble vitamins and cholesterol which are both vital to our hormonal systems. This is particularly true for those who venture into VLC/HF after spending a prolonged period as a vegan or vegetarian.

Once our body's stocks of these fat soluble vitamins and building blocks are built back up the metabolic costs associated with this diet start to overwhelm the benefits, and it's time to make some changes.

I responded to some of your questions in another thread, but thought I'd contribute here too. My answers are listed after your questions, which are in quotes below.

Even though I can feel my body wanting and needing the extra fat, will I put fat on while going from a moderate carb/fat/protein diet (currently) to a ketogenic diet as the body adapts to fat burning or will the shift just be apparent in some initial fatigue? I just don't want to take any steps backwards and gain more fat while trying to shed it.

If you are getting most of your calories from fat it's terribly hard for your body to store fat away. The biochemistry just doesn't favor it. A bigger question is whether or not you can meet your stated goals while staying ketogenic. Anaerobic workouts (like weight lifting) favor the burning of glucose, so if you aren't eating foods that can provide this glucose then there's a high likelihood that your body will start cannibalizing its stores of protein (aka muscle fiber) to turn into glucose through the process of gluconeogenesis. The end result is that you'll plateau in terms of your athletic goals and your physique even as you continue working out. I think you're much better off eating a modest amount of carbs, say 30-40 percent of your total calories. A ketogenic diet would be great if you were training to be an endurance athlete (i.e. doing aerobic exercise like long gentle runs or bike rides), but it doesn't work that well for anaerobic athleticism, in my experience.

I also don't see why you want to stay in calorie deficit. If you're working out hard, that is not the time to attempt a calorie restricted diet provided the calories you're eating are nutritionally useful.

-Will the 20-50g of carbs allow me to stay in ketosis?

Yes, but see above. I think you are undermining your training goals by trying to stay ketogenic.

-When would the best time to consume those carbs or right before bed to fuel the fasted workout?

I'd eat them about an hour before your workout, or right before bed if you intend to go into your workout fasted.

-How long does it take to get into ketosis?

It varies from person-to-person, and on whether you've been ketoadapted before. I'd guess 2-4 weeks.

-What can I expect as far as training while on a keto-diet? 

If you're doing aerobic training (gentle running, swimming, biking) then you will see slow but steady gains over a period of 3-6 months, then slower gains for perhaps the next few years as you ease towards your full potential. Your endurance will become amazing though, as long as you keep your heart rate low enough during exercise that your muscles remain in aerobic territory. On the other hand, if you're doing anaerobic training (sprints, weight lifting, CrossFit) you will feel terrible, and you might even pass out. Your strength gains will be far below potential and you'll probably plateau reasonably quickly, and you'll have trouble gaining muscle mass because your body will constantly cannibalize muscle tissue to turn into glucose. If your main workout regimen includes anything anaerobic, including weight training, I strongly advise against attempting to stay in ketosis. There is definitely a time for this style of eating and metabolism, but it's not for stretches where you're doing a lot of anaerobic work.

-How long does it generally take for the body to adjust to a keto-diet?  Any cons of entering ketosis?

2-4 weeks, in my experience. The only con is that you feel terrible for a while, but that passes. See my above comments about attempting to maintain an anaerobic training regimen while in ketosis though. Not recommended!

-Is a keto-diet optimal for cutting to the bodyfat percentage goal that I have or could I reach my goals while still consuming carbs?

I can't say whether it's optimal, but it can definitely work if coupled with aerobic workouts. If your goal is to do anaerobic workouts (weight lifting), I suggest more like a zone diet that advocates a 40-30-30 balance of carbs-protein-fat. When I first started CrossFit I tried desperately to stay in ketosis, and it was an epic fail. Only since transitioning towards more moderate amounts of carbs has my body adjusted to the rigors of CrossFit (and anaerobic training more generally). Since I transitioned, strength gains, lean muscle mass gains, and body fat loss have been swift.

General Discussion / Re: Beyond Grass fed
« on: June 28, 2016, 06:27:10 am »
Why not just eat the insects?

General Discussion / Re: Beyond Grass fed
« on: June 28, 2016, 01:56:28 am »
Thinking about the original title of this post, another thing I've grown interested in is raising and eating insects. The book Edible, by Daniella Martin, offers instructions at the end for raising crickets, mealworms and waxworms. I want to try doing that. I think it would be a great way to gain access to very high quality protein and fat, and I could enhance the omega 3 content of the insects by feeding them omega-3 rich plant foods that I might not be able to digest and utilize as well, like flax seeds.

General Discussion / Re: Getting acclimated to raw fat.....
« on: June 27, 2016, 09:49:09 pm »
In my experience the texture and taste of fat from cattle changes over the year. I've found that suet (for instance) tastes delectable and is of a soft, almost buttery texture when the animals are harvested in June and July, which is when they've been eating fairly lush fresh forage here in Vermont for at least a month. Prior to June the suet is not as pleasing in terms of taste and texture, as the animals haven't been on fresh forage long enough for their body fat to transition away from its winter texture, which is dry and crumbly as Derek (sabertooth) mentioned. The suet starts transitioning towards that dry and crumbly texture late in July as even fresh forage is getting dry and cattle are eating natural grain from grasses that are starting to bolt, which influences the fatty acid content in their meat and fat.

General Discussion / Re: Beyond Grass fed
« on: June 24, 2016, 07:43:19 am »
RF, what do you see as the difference between management intensive grazing and holistic management? I think of holistic management, as defined by Allan Savory, as being one type of management intensive grazing. I don't see them as being overwhelmingly different.

General Discussion / Re: Beyond Grass fed
« on: June 24, 2016, 07:26:47 am »
How does Salatin limit forage?

If he's like most grass farmers, his pastures are fairly heavily managed. He probably seeds with whatever forage he'd like to see dominate on a yearly basis, and if a pasture drifts too far from his ideal species composition he might plow it under and start again or use a broad-spectrum herbicide to kill everything and start again. If your goal is to make money in grass farming, you can't just waltz into a field and graze cattle. You need to manage the field for particular species that your cattle can digest and that allow the cattle to gain weight as fast as they can.

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