Author Topic: The opposition.  (Read 38339 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2015, 02:27:38 pm »
My my... how far we have strayed from the vegans + pro gmo purposely sabotaging human health.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2015, 02:48:08 pm »
All who wander are not lost.... Its difficult to direct the quantum flow of the great cosmic computer god mentality.... Once it becomes clear that the Pro GMO Vegan Agenda cannot be reasoned with, or taken seriously we have no other option here other than to transcend the situation altogether.
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Offline ys

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2015, 10:59:53 am »
I have yet to find concrete evidence that GMO is somehow harmful.  The web is full of "credible studies" both pro and con.  Most evidence is anecdotal and highly speculative but nothing concrete.

By concrete evidence I mean:
 - Nutritional analysis that shows there are anti-nutrients present (type and amount), or gross imbalance of one nutrient over the other that's nutritionally undesirable.  I've heard claims that GMO might be less nutritious.  Assuming it is true it does not fall into harmful category.

- Genes interfering with digestion.  There is a lot bad science involving genes.  First, our gut does not care if the cucumber gene comes from cucumber itself or from pork modified with cucumber gene.  In both cases the gene sequence would be identical and our bodies would not know the difference.  Second, all genes get digested into the same components: A,G,C,T + the base molecules.  Claims that they found strings of DNA floating in blood have not been verified and points to bad science.  Our gut is designed in such a way that it only permits small molecules into the bloodstream.  Undigested strings of DNA simply get excreted or consumed/metabolized by gut flora.

Since there is still much unknown about consuming GMO long term I think we are all in agreement it's best to avoid it.  But it would be nice to have good science explaining it all.

Now to my point.  If I end up in situation to choose either GMO produce or produce treated with pesticide/antibiotics I would choose GMO.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2015, 11:26:55 am »
I have yet to find concrete evidence that GMO is somehow harmful.  The web is full of "credible studies" both pro and con.  Most evidence is anecdotal and highly speculative but nothing concrete.

By concrete evidence I mean:
 - Nutritional analysis that shows there are anti-nutrients present (type and amount), or gross imbalance of one nutrient over the other that's nutritionally undesirable.  I've heard claims that GMO might be less nutritious.  Assuming it is true it does not fall into harmful category.

- Genes interfering with digestion.  There is a lot bad science involving genes.  First, our gut does not care if the cucumber gene comes from cucumber itself or from pork modified with cucumber gene.  In both cases the gene sequence would be identical and our bodies would not know the difference.  Second, all genes get digested into the same components: A,G,C,T + the base molecules.  Claims that they found strings of DNA floating in blood have not been verified and points to bad science.  Our gut is designed in such a way that it only permits small molecules into the bloodstream.  Undigested strings of DNA simply get excreted or consumed/metabolized by gut flora.

Since there is still much unknown about consuming GMO long term I think we are all in agreement it's best to avoid it.  But it would be nice to have good science explaining it all.

Now to my point.  If I end up in situation to choose either GMO produce or produce treated with pesticide/antibiotics I would choose GMO.

How about the pesticides used for the GMO?

How about those beetles / insects dying from eating the farm produce... if you see all those dead insects with tummies burst from the gmo plant's defense, would you still eat such a gmo plant?

See http://www2.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef130.asp

The claim:

"Bt Delta Endotoxin
The Bt delta endotoxin was selected because it is highly effective at controlling Lepidoptera larvae, caterpillars. It is during the larval stage when most of the damage by European corn borer occurs. The protein is very selective, generally not harming insects in other orders (such as beetles, flies, bees and wasps). For this reason, GMOs that have the Bt gene are compatible with biological control programs because they harm insect predators and parasitoids much less than broad-spectrum insecticides. The Bt endotoxin is considered safe for humans, other mammals, fish, birds, and the environment because of its selectivity. Bt has been available as a commercial microbial insecticide since the 1960s and is sold under many trade names. These products have an excellent safety record and can be used on many crops until the day of harvest.
 
To kill a susceptible insect, a part of the plant that contains the Bt protein (not all parts of the plant necessarily contain the protein in equal concentrations) must be ingested. Within minutes, the protein binds to the gut wall and the insect stops feeding. Within hours, the gut wall breaks down and normal gut bacteria invade the body cavity. The insect dies of septicaemia as bacteria multiply in the blood. Even among Lepidoptera larvae, species differ in sensitivity to the Bt protein."

And how sure are THEY or YOU, that this is harmless to humans and livestock?  Tsk tsk tsk...
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2015, 12:06:01 pm »
Actually the new science has discovered through a mechanisms for RNA transference, genes from the foods we eat encoded into our own genetic code. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtwTEHW8_8k

The proteins do indeed pass through into the bloodstream and get directly absorbed into our cells, and have been shown to alter our gene expression. The limited and highly restrictive animal feeds done on GMOs have shown there to be great potential for trans generational negative genetic, as well as short term health detriments.

This is just an opinion but one I agree with........You would be either a fool, derelict or a prisoner, if you think that you are in such a position that you would have to chose between the lesser of two evils.

Go find a local orchard, join an organic CSA ,or grow your own if need be. There seems to be a minority of paleos who will recommend choosing some of the safer commercial produce is ok, but the more puritanical paleos would advise not only  avoiding commercial produce but also GMO....and there is even a rare subgroup whom question the quality of much of the organic stuff on the market. At the local market place in the civilized world there are now multinational corporations involved in the production of all foods Conventional, GMO and organic.

"Labels"in today's world MEAN NOTHING. If its labeled in printed letters and sold at a grocery stores, its not paleo in a pure sense. There are many of us who do indeed, on faith in their fellow humans, chose to pick one" branding" over another. Based on someones recommendation, advertisement or gut intuition.

Developing ones" intuition" needs to be the first priority. Without being attuned to our intuition /primal instincts , there would be no way to ever test these laboratory foods in the real world without being injured. The opposition makes it so that people are being denied the freedom to readily access the optimal quality of foods needed for people in dire need of access to the best this world has to offer. Someone who is attuned and has access to a wider variety of resource will be more capable of recognizing and avoiding foods which is harmful to the being on the holistic level.

It is dread to think that its very well possible such individuals are becoming extinct, an endangered breed that is giving way to those who where capable of adapting to a Chemo-Geneticaly mutilated ecosystem.  The signs are clear and the writing is on the wall of whats happening but its up to you to chose what to pay mind to.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 12:16:16 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline eveheart

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2015, 12:20:35 pm »
How about the pesticides used for the GMO?

How about those beetles / insects dying from eating the farm produce... if you see all those dead insects with tummies burst from the gmo plant's defense, would you still eat such a gmo plant?

See http://www2.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef130.asp

The claim:

"Bt Delta Endotoxin
The Bt delta endotoxin was selected because it is highly effective at controlling Lepidoptera larvae, caterpillars. It is during the larval stage when most of the damage by European corn borer occurs. The protein is very selective, generally not harming insects in other orders (such as beetles, flies, bees and wasps). ...

Bad example, GS. Bt is specific against caterpillars. It occurs naturally everywhere, like in the soil and plants. It is not a bacteria that colonizes in humans. I avoid food grown with pesticides and chemical fertilizers, but I've used Bt in my own garden and considered it natural enough.

I think GMO is an interesting concept, and I suspect that many GMOs are completely harmless, but I'm sure that there are some ruthless mad-scientist types developing GMOs that are bad. I worry about alterations that make people get addicted in some way to a food so that the grower makes more money.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2015, 09:04:39 pm »
Seeing dead caterpillars all around the bt freak is not going to give me warm fuzzy feelings of illusions eating bt for myself or for my kids.
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Offline eveheart

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2015, 09:24:27 pm »
Seeing dead caterpillars all around the bt freak is not going to give me warm fuzzy feelings of illusions eating bt for myself or for my kids.

Do you or your children have caterpillar digestive tracts?
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2015, 09:59:51 pm »
Do you or your children have caterpillar digestive tracts?

It's all about instinct, Eve.

Here, we welcome half a worm on the guava we bite into.

If the birds were dropping dead while eating the mangoes on our tree, I would not eat those mangoes as well.

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Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2015, 10:01:27 pm »
The issue with bt used as a external treatment is very different from the bt which is engineered to be produced internally by the plant. BT in relatively small amounts such as what is used by gardeners to dust their crops, is not nearly as harmful as the BT which is produced by genetically combining BT producing bacterial with the crop plants.

The sheer amount of the BT toxin within the cells of engineered plants can be enough to cause gastrointestinal problems, and there is the possibility that through gene transference the gut bacteria when exposed to BT producing Genetic material may be mutated in a way that is toxic to healthy gut ecology.

Its also important to note that most BT GMO crops are also treated with roundup and that there is an even greater toxicological risk when the two are combined.

Im with GS on this one, if a crop is toxic in a way that it kills the bugs who eat it then I don't care how safe some scientist claims it to be!

http://www.nationofchange.org/monsanto-s-bt-toxins-found-kill-human-embryo-cells-1390666070
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Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2015, 11:09:22 pm »
listen to any of vendana shivas lectures talks on seed politics and the interests of those who wish to pervert nature with their greed and you will realize there are so many other issues besides the possibility that GMO's might mutate cells within the body.  the actual food produced by gmo crops might be the least destructive part of the process.  i dont know why its so hard for people to wrap their heads around the fact that it is mulitfauceted destruction of land and how we relate to nature and each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzFFz14r_tg

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2015, 05:30:42 am »
I am more than aware of the multifaceted levels of destruction and mutilation involved whenever big agricultural multinationals are involved. As is above so is below and the forces behind the abomination of the genetic code are the same that hold profit over the subsequent ecological balance that ensues. The more ecological damage the farm land suffers the more big agricultural products the farmers must buy to get anything to grow in the wastelands. The more corrupt and ecologically imbalanced our system of agriculture is the more money the corporations stand to make in cleaning up the mess they created. There is no accountability.

 Its an ends and means argument being used by the pro GMOs to impose the seeds of deception upon the people of the world. They claim that the increased total food production which will save the masses from starving, somehow justifies the risk involved in playing god. The problem is that its all bullshit and there is no evidence which proves that the world is being improved. One might dream.... if all that money that is going into conventional farming were instead invested in more integrated holistic farming methods, then we may be able to feed everyone, without contributing to the mutilation of our Genome, and the raping of the earth. Then if for some reason that isn't enough I am sure that by simply taking one fourth of the worlds war machine budget and put a few trillion dollars, into sustainable agriculture projects, then there would be no reason for anyone in the world to go hungry or have to eat poison laced food.

The Pro GMO crowd exhibit the same kind of thinking of Zorg from the fifth element, in the way they seem blinded by the arrogance behind the corporate message that "they" know what "they" are doing and are working in the best interest of the world....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnzzWGcdMqY
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:43:09 am by sabertooth »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2015, 06:53:46 am »
I have no problem with GMOs in theory.  Only a gullible moron would willingly give that kind of power to companies that try to patent human genes, though. It's like letting Jerry Sandusky be a Scoutmaster.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 07:20:04 am by cherimoya_kid »

Offline eveheart

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2015, 07:56:11 am »
It's very hard for me to condemn GMO crops because they are the obvious answer to the pest problems of monoculture. I don't think it's possible to turn our backs on 10,000 years of single-crop farming, unless we're talking about test-tube food. Like it or not, this is how it is.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2015, 09:03:59 am »
We still have choices where I live.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2015, 09:08:09 am »
The problem with GM is that the companies appear to use dna from widely different species, such as fish genes in GM tomatoes.  Also, companies like Monsanto cannot be trusted given endless reports. Anyway, there are sufficient organic methods to deal with so-called "pests". I only have to look at my own garden to see what environmental damage will happen when profit is always the motive. The rest of the coast, other than mine and my immeidate neighbours' garden, is filled with greenhouses supporting monocultures. Outside the greenhouses, it is practically a desert. We and those neighbours I mentioned are the only properties with significant numbers of insects such as butterflies, wasps, dragonflies etc., solely because we use organic methods to grow our plants.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2015, 09:49:25 am »
It's very hard for me to condemn GMO crops because they are the obvious answer to the pest problems of monoculture. I don't think it's possible to turn our backs on 10,000 years of single-crop farming, unless we're talking about test-tube food. Like it or not, this is how it is.

Monoculture is responsible for the pest problems to begin with! GMO is not the answer! In fact the root worms that BT was built into corn to kill are building resistance, and its only a matter of time before the pest are able to overcome the current generation of pesticide measures, which will lead to ever more abominable practices of higher levels of strong pesticides.

This horticultural arms race reminds me of the folk tale of the" old lady who swallowed a fly", every remedy she ingest only leads to further calamity, and at the end of each verse where she swallows another animal, is the line "I don't know why she swallowed the fly, perhaps she will die".

 I don't know why mono-culture cannot be reformed? like I was expressing earlier if the trillions of dollars that are wasted on building death machines were properly invested in integrated and sustainable agriculture projects, new methods of feeding the world without the use of poison could indeed make the problems of mono-culture a thing of the dark ages.

If you take a really close look at the history of mono-culture you will learn about how it is being practiced now is nothing like how it was first practiced 10,000 years ago( its apples to radiated oranges) regarding the original farmers of the Nile compared to what is going on in Iowa)

During the early days it became apparent in many cultures that mono-cropping would ruin the land within a few generations. Pestilence, and sickness would set in if the land was not allowed to rest, replenish and renew. This emergence of pest is mother earth revolting against the imposition of unbalanced systems. The pest are an immune reaction of the earth which serve a vital function in maintaining a healthy and diverse ecosystem. If one life form overgrows its ecosystems ability to keep it in balance , then it is just a mater of time before Gaia unleashes the worms, locust, etc. A vibrant ecology with a balance of plant eating insects living in a diverse herbosphere, actually stimulate the health and promote the development of strong immunity in the plants that share that environment. To systematicly poison all herbivorous insects in an environment, remove all other symbiotic life forms, and grow one single crop sprayed with herbicides and fed with chemical fertilizers is ecologically insane, and although it may yield short term gains, the long term effects will be disastrous to the subsequent generations forced to subsist such an unholy substrate.

 The systems of crop rotation where developed and enabled mono-culture grain to be planted one year then legumes the next, then left to the Pasteur animals on the third year. If the agricultural sciences were truly unleashed from the bondage of corporate slavery then researches and innovators working side by side with growers of food on the grass roots level could develop the kind of integrated and highly efferent poly-cultural systems which would make mono-culture, obsolete.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 09:55:36 am by sabertooth »
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Offline eveheart

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2015, 10:04:12 am »
Monoculture is responsible for the pest problems to begin with!

That's what I'm saying. I don't see any agribusinesses rushing to intercropping anytime in the future, either. It costs too much. There are plenty of alternatives if you want to pay more for food, but the masses still want "10 for $10" or they'll shop someplace else.
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Offline ys

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2015, 10:17:50 am »
Quote
Actually the new science has discovered through a mechanisms for RNA transference, genes from the foods we eat encoded into our own genetic code. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtwTEHW8_8k

That's the kind of bad science (I should really say incomplete science) I was talking about.
That's some bold claim and again without much facts.

From the paper itself:
The authors of this study hypothesized that epithelial cells in the intestine might take up miRNAs in food, package them into MVs and release them into the circulatory system.

This is just another speculation.  Key words are hypothesized and might.

I also could not find any credible peers reviewing these claims.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2015, 10:23:37 am »
You looking for peer reviews?

Seriously?  As raw paleo dieters, we are in experiential territory.

I would rather accept your personal experiences eating raw GMO animals or plants or fruits.

---------

Plus if you are looking for peer reviews... the peer reviews should support the notion that their GMO is absolutely safe.  Not the other way around.  They are the new kid on the block.  So the burden is for the GMO to be proven safe in the first place. 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 10:30:08 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline ys

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2015, 10:30:09 am »
Quote
You looking for peer reviews?

Seriously?  As raw paleo dieters, we are in experiential territory.

I would rather accept your personal experiences eating raw GMO animals or plants or fruits.

Peer reviewing scientific papers has nothing to with raw paleo or any other diet.

I do not wish to experiment with unknown in any way.  That's why I would like to see some real facts.  I am highly suspicious of GMO just like everyone else. But sometimes on rare social occasions I do consume GMO food (conventional produce that's likely GMO).  And I am interested to know the actual facts.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2015, 10:30:55 am »
Plus if you are looking for peer reviews... the peer reviews should support the notion that their GMO is absolutely safe.  Not the other way around.  They are the new kid on the block.  So the burden is for the GMO to be proven safe in the first place. 

The idiotic propaganda is that they assume GMOs are SAFE until someone spends billions on peer reviewed researches that they are not safe / harmful.  :P

-----------

I have little respect for "studies".  Especially the self serving ones.

I'd rather have honest raw paleo diet practitioners do their self experiments consuming the new GMO creatures and tell us how good they are after a year.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2015, 11:48:07 am »
Just a moment, I vaguely recall that dna transfer is a scientific fact:-

http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/03/humans-may-harbor-more-100-genes-other-organisms
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2015, 11:55:35 am »
That's the kind of bad science (I should really say incomplete science) I was talking about.
That's some bold claim and again without much facts.

From the paper itself:
The authors of this study hypothesized that epithelial cells in the intestine might take up miRNAs in food, package them into MVs and release them into the circulatory system.

This is just another speculation.  Key words are hypothesized and might.

I also could not find any credible peers reviewing these claims.


What about the peer reviewed studies which proof that the BT toxin does not get destroyed by the gut enzymes and does indeed pass directly into the blood stream and can be detected in breast milk. This is how bad science works, you have some BT and you put in in a dish with an acidic PH of equivalent strength of an average human stomach, and you see that the acid breaks down the toxin, then go on to profess that the toxin cannot pass through the stomach so therefor its safe for everyone to consume, as much as they want.....but this assumption does not take into account the myriad of factors involved in the digestive system. Some people have enzymatic insufficiency from other issues, and their already weaken digestive tract could become further decimated by ingestion of GMO. The epidemic rise in leaky gut and colitis, and multitude of other digestive illnesses which have erupted since GMO foods have come into use cannot be ignored, in the light of the animal testing which show very similar conditions in animals after only 6 month feeding studies.

There are many issues with bad science, and like GS and myself are claiming, the burden of proof should be on those who claim GMOs to be 100 safe, which to my knowledge there is not the kind of long-term trans-generational animal studies which prove such a " bold claim"

When you look into the limited studies conducted by the bio tech industry you find monumental scientific fraud . Some studies where originally designed for long term, but after adverse reactions in the first trial, the companies had the data deep sixed, and shortened the time of the trial period in other test to right before the negative effects would show. The kind of long term studies needed to prove one way or another the safety of GMOs are being obstructed by the powers that be. Yet despite the lack of proof of long term safety there is an ocean of propaganda proclaiming GMOS to be safe whenever you search engine the subject.http://naturalsociety.com/biotech-bullying-french-government-withdraws-long-term-gmo-study/

I should also mention that I worked as a butcher and have seen the lesions, tumors , abscesses, swollen joints and other detrimental health effects seen in GMO fed animals, these organ lesions and health issues I have found in 2 year old farm animals, are very similar to the ones discovered in GM fed lab rats...... while at the same time I noticed none of those issues on farms that grew their own non gm corn to supplement their livestock.

Here here, all yea who are claiming GMOS to be safe, I say to you put up or shut up , take the GMO Challenge, and eat exclusively all GMO  for a year  and come back and tell us how you feel?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 12:09:39 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline ys

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2015, 12:03:45 pm »
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So the burden is for the GMO to be proven safe in the first place.

History will show you otherwise.  Just like with margarine, everyone was eating it until someone put it under the microscope and proved it to be unsafe.

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Just a moment, I vaguely recall that dna transfer is a scientific fact

Again, speculative keyword may.

 

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