Author Topic: The opposition.  (Read 38340 times)

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Offline ys

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2015, 12:17:01 pm »
Quote
There are many issues with bad science, and like GS and myself are claiming, the burden of proof should be on those who claim GMOs to be 100 safe

I am not looking for proofs that GMO is safe.  I am looking for proofs that say otherwise.
You are claiming that GMO fed stock looks sickly.  Would it not get approval stamp?

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2015, 01:06:01 pm »
There were many who had an Idea margarine wasn't good by its taste, and didn't need a microscope and 50 years of increased rates of heart disease  to convince them not to eat the stuff. Just as there are people here who don't feel the need to let history prove anything in hindsight, and choose not to eat things that have been engineered. Our lives are now much of history is useless bunk...even after artificial oils were proven to be more harmful than butter or lard, there was no universal penance among the scientific community because they had it all wrong, there was no apology or reparations. How many times has science failed to foresee the dangers they were unleashing. Nearly all the chemical pesticides which were used in our parents generation have been banned, and much of the negative effects of such recklessly insane practices, have ever been formally recognized by science.   Nor should we expect much better treatment by the hustlers in the bio tek business which have hijacked the systems of our own time.

As for the accusation of speculation, I will plead guilty, for I am one who believes its much better to speculate than to spectate, and if you or anyone else has a better theory to explain the gene transference phenomenon, being open minded, I would love to discuss it . There is still much that nobody knows regarding the workings of the life force?  In this vacuum between the ignorance and the cusp of new discovery there is freedom to fathom the deeper mystery of it all and speculate on what truths may be uncovered. These life affirmations are more and more becoming evolved within a larger world view that science alone cannot comprehend without the help of the spirit. Life to me is much more a spiritual journey than it is an empirical scientific inquiry, though I would like to be able to find common ground by which the two could work together to further the human enterprise. This view of life as divine creation that is holy in and of itself, makes one very suspicious of those who would try to fuck with the structural integrity of the sacred spiral, for selfish gain, without fully understanding the total impact on all the interconnected systems which will be affected.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2015, 01:15:04 pm »
I am not looking for proofs that GMO is safe.  I am looking for proofs that say otherwise.
You are claiming that GMO fed stock looks sickly.  Would it not get approval stamp?

Let me educate the public, I have worked next to a USDA inspector when animals with swollen joints and liver lesions have come through the line. The policy in the united states is that if the organs are bad just throw them out and send the rest of the animal to be processed. Its totally insane what is going on, there is no scientific oversight, these sick animals are not being studied in order to discover exactly what is causing the issue. Since these animals are butchered by 2 years of age most of the long term debilitating effects of GMO fed lotting are not given time to manifest, but I can vouch that many of these animals brought in to slaughter are sick and shouldn't be fed to people. One problem is that the whole system of animal agriculture is out of tune with reality, some instances the lesions are caused by parasites from being crowed in fed lots and given chemical wormers chronicly, and the swollen joints are because they are over fed. I have noticed non of these issues in the grass fed animals. Many of the animals would have their belly's full of corn and although I cannot be sure, I assumed it was GMO.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2015, 01:23:50 pm »
I am not looking for proofs that GMO is safe.  I am looking for proofs that say otherwise.
You are claiming that GMO fed stock looks sickly.  Would it not get approval stamp?

That is YOUR mistake right there.

You are looking at it from the opposite side.

It's like some new creature was just CREATED from the lab, and you ASSUME it is safe... and wait for "STUDIES" to prove the GMO creature is not safe to eat.

Duh... of course you can search how MUCH $$$ it takes to pay for such studies.  Who has the $$$ and the interest to do such a study?

It's just like we are eating raw paleo diets here... because we didn't need no stinking study to tell us raw paleo diets worked... we had to rely on testimonies and personal experience... because the "STUDY" methodology was not working for us.

Maybe a bunch of raw paleo dieters would want to do their personal "study" and experience the GMO creatures first hand and give their reviews after some time as staple food... testimonials... not peer reviewed.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 01:32:29 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2015, 01:51:18 pm »
I am not looking for proofs that GMO is safe.  I am looking for proofs that say otherwise.
You are claiming that GMO fed stock looks sickly.  Would it not get approval stamp?
Here is one example of what you mean:-

http://www.ijbs.com/v05p0706.htm
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2015, 03:45:20 pm »
I think you guys all heard about the Seralini study. Here's their website. They also answer critics who claimed that the study was poorly conducted:

www.gmoseralini.org

Keep in mind that they have little to gain from having their study declared valid or not, except the satisfaction of making others aware of the danger, or perhaps supporting the comparatively much less profitable organic agriculture industry, unlike GM companies who have a lot more to lose from having their own "studies" invalidated (and so does the US government).
 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:13:30 pm by JeuneKoq »

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2015, 10:33:45 pm »
for the people who think monoculture and GMO is the only way to "feed" the country.  its not.  poly culture, silvopasture,  and returning our grasslands to cattle and other grazing animals would only improve the amount of food, sequester carbon back into the soil, and help grow back the top soil and diversify the prairie.  our grasslands, at some point, sustained 10's of millions of bison.......thats a lot of meat, fertilizer, leather, etc. the land has just been misappropriated, much like all other resources on the planet, and people are being forced to make poor food decisions, whether it be due to lack of proper education, "supply", thinking meat is too expensive, dogma, etc..

http://www.voanews.com/content/cattle-replace-bison-to-restore-grassland-health/2947283.html

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2015, 11:34:59 pm »
It's great to know all that, Jessica. I understand you've worked hard for the knowledge. Right around the time people really start getting into that stuff, though, vat-grown food will become better than even the best wild or farmed food. That's my prediction.

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2015, 11:47:06 pm »
People are already really into that stuff, and i also understand people are also into frankenfood at the same pace, but why would you eer on the side of "science" and all of its horrendous consequence? "If you plan for anything other than Eden, that's what you are going to get"-Mark Shepard.....PLAN FOR EDEN. 

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2015, 12:24:40 am »
We tried Eden. Human curiosity ended that. It is denying a fundamental fact of human nature to think that we will ever abandon science. No matter where it leads, it's what we are. And I'd rather crash and burn as a species than try to be something we're not. But maybe that's just me.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2015, 01:27:08 am »
Technological advancement doesn't necessary mean it has to be destructive and keep us out of tune with our environment. There is a growing number of initiatives and projects surrounding the "eco" ideal out there (meaning eco-technology, eco-villages, eco-farming, eco-everything...). If we already tried Eden, then let's try Eden 2.0!

I hope we'll one day have permaculture machines capable of harvesting different plants at their optimal picking time, in squares of land with several species growing next to one another.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 01:43:41 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2015, 01:56:21 am »
Science if applied in accordance with the balanced systems of nature would not need to be abandoned, and could indeed be used as a lodestar to guide us those of us whom so desire, back into the Garden. What is now needed is for us to take a much slower and sustainable and saner approach to reaching life's ultimate goal(whatever that may be). It is my belief that we have come too far, too fast riding on the backs of these autonomous mechanical giants. We have been carried into a no mans land, lost, far from home, Separated from our mother earth. Feeling abandoned by the goddess, in accordance with our nature, we have begun to attach ourselves to the machine. In the process of  the construction of a machine world, Human beings, as the image of the creator, had to develop a machine machine mind in order to relate to its own creations. This mechanical, maniacal mind has come to replace the pantheist, spirit centered mind that preceded it over the course of history. The universal dominance of the mechanistic scientific model within the mind of the human entity, is now emerged as the dominating force and is playing the role of GOD, and its a jealous God which demands that the old ways be forgotten, and all opposition be denounced, in the name of progress. Progress is this entity's illusion, as well as its Dogma and in order to accomplish this illusion of turning its dogma into truth, the Machine mind will ignore or in some cases violently attack, any contradictory intelligence which does not fit the mechanistic model.

Its easy in these discussions to make it into an" either or" debate, when it could just as well be a "both and". These are huge issues which I believe mankind needs time to grapple with before declaring progress to have been made on any front. Sure our technology, scientific endeavor and world economy is full of innovation and growth , but what good is all that if our spirits are empty and our bodies are enslaved to a mechanical apparatus.  Let us set up our own models based upon the rediscovery of the science which operates within the Gaia spirit to develop life affirming technology which would allow for a more healthy integration of the accomplishments of machine mind back into a holistic and balanced view of earth.

I have a feeling the garden of Eden model was prematurely abandoned, in the madness and calamity that insured after the tree of knowledge event, and although there is no way to go back, there may at least be ways of bring forth a new vision of Eden that would give us a viable alternative to a future of virtual insanity.

As Raw paleo Dieters this is our endeavor, and our contribution to enhancing the scientific understanding of the world.
We need to stand firm and see ourselves in this experiment, as a control group by which the immature genetic pseudo sciences clumsy attempts at the engineering of life can be measured against. The proof may not come in the form of an accredited document published in some journal, but will be found in our own living being and the quality of life and health that manifest through us.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2015, 02:55:56 am »
Quote from: JeuneKoq

I hope we'll one day have permaculture machines capable of harvesting different plants at their optimal picking time, in squares of land with several species growing next to one another.



We have those, they are called humans, they are the most technogically advanced things on the planet and we have billions of them.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2015, 03:30:32 am »
We have those, they are called humans, they are the most technogically advanced things on the planet and we have billions of them.
Ugh, but they're like, organic, and full of germs. And they're gonna ask for, like, a fair wage, which is gonna upset daddy for sure...

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2015, 03:32:23 am »
We have those, they are called humans, they are the most technogically advanced things on the planet and we have billions of them.

The problem is they overpopulate and end up with wars and disease epidemics as a result. Their tendency to separate into tribes and isolate themselves causes this. The only solution is technological advancements that fix human ignorance and personality flaws permanently. And this same technology can be, and almost certainly will be, to produce food without the need for human labor or soil.

Just because you're a farmer doesn't mean that farming will always exist. When's the last time you met a telegraph operator? LOL

Offline nummi

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2015, 03:37:17 am »
The path of technology VS the path of nature.

The path of technology. You create ways and systems and design foods that are "superior" to that which already exist (but are they really superior if our Earth is so poisoned to begin with? How about healing Earth first to see the truth?). Eventually you design it all so whole that the system drives itself, where it has different organisms growing that include different nutrients and substances, where new ones create themselves, and you need ways to recognize what is what so you could eat the right thing instead of the wrong thing. Oh wait... that's nature...

Seriously...

Why try to use the destruction of one to end up creating the very same thing the creation of which demanded the destruction of? I'd call that insane... and for some reason there are some people who have no problem with it, or are simply blind... or worse...

Being or existence is energy. Information is the difference between different energies, but information is itself also energy. There can be no nonexistence or non-being, but there can be and is information of it. With "being" there is immediately the information of "being" which hints at "non-being". Since energy is being and information is also energy, then the information "non-being" is energy that is in direct opposition and contradiction with itself. And this contradicting energy is one of the most founding energies there is.
So... essentially, there is energy of insanity. Energy that "wants" to not be energy, but can't and thus destroys and recreates itself without stop.

Of course, those two fundamental energies would create further differences, further energies, etc. Endless possibilities.

How well does this explain what is going on on Earth? We already have nature... technology would end up recreating nature of some sort.

What energies are dominating you? I am fairly certain you all can choose. So what kind of "energy" do you want to live, what kind of world do you want to live in, and what actions correspond and lead to what you want?
There are many more options, but:
Do you want to destroy so you could recreate it in some form?
Or would you rather take the existing one and improve it? But of course after you've discovered the potential of the existing one, because otherwise in your ignorance you could instead end up harming and destroying the existing one which might be far superior than what you can even imagine.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2015, 04:16:16 am »
The problem is they overpopulate and end up with wars and disease epidemics as a result. Their tendency to separate into tribes and isolate themselves causes this.
Aiee! Aiiee!! The above poster's ideas are so un-palaeo he ought to be staked out and burnt as an evil  witch(or perhaps eaten alive like in good old palaeo times?!). First of all, epidemics/diseases were far less effective in palaeo times precisely because they separated themselves into far-off isolated tribes. As soon as they adopted stupid, Neolithic-era ideas  such as huddling close together into settled cities, THEN they suffered mass epidemics sure enough. One only has to look at Roman and Ancient Chinese etc. history to see how plagues wiped out endless settled civilisations/eras. Tribes are the essence of the true natural human spirit. I do not agree with the Noble Savage Theory in its ridiculous religious-like  idolisation of primitive tribes,  but it does have a point of sorts.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2015, 07:39:59 am »
traveling causes plauges also, we need to stop thinking globally and get back to ourselves, what we are capable of as individuals and how that translates to our immediate environment and community.  its sad that people are already so disempowered that they dont even know how to access their own physical capabilities and potential, but i refuse to go the way of those people.  that is why i investigated my own health issues and found raw paleo.  i am not a farmer, by a long shot, i am a human and i see that we are brilliant beings with huge capability for creating both harm and harmony.  most of our current cultural and social psychology is driven by power hungry greedy sociopaths, and we all live as scared children on planet time out.  obviously i think its important to be informed by history, and i dont think we should or even could revert back to previous times and ways. but the trick is to not be fooled by history and the powers that be who use history as religion to scare people into believing that there is only one way to progress and that it is to give all of your power to a higher source, be that government or religious idol, and live on earth as if it were purgatory or hell.  its a choice to live this way, to create a world that is unsuitable for humans, it is suicide to give your personal power away to this ideology.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:57:14 am by jessica »

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2015, 12:59:11 am »
ps good luck doing anything without soil.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2015, 03:07:58 am »
ps good luck doing anything without soil.
Ever heard of foliar feeding?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 03:18:50 am by cherimoya_kid »

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2015, 03:17:17 am »
"...H.B. Tukey was head of Michigan State University Department of Horticulture in the 1950s. Working with S. H. Wittwer, they proved conclusively that foliar feeding is effective. Radioactive phosphorus and potassium were applied to foliage. A Geiger counter was used to observe absorption, movement and nutrient utilization. The nutrients were transported at the rate of about one foot per hour to all parts of the plants.

Juice from plant leaves can be tested with a refractometer. If after feeding the amount of light refracted significantly rises, at least some nutrients have been absorbed. A spray enhancer can help nutrients stick to the leaf and then penetrate the leaves' cuticle...."


That's from the wiki article. It specifically talks about using seaweed as a base for mixing foliar solutions.

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2015, 04:59:30 am »
If we didn't have soil our atmosphere would be so fucked there would be no seaweed to derive nutrients from.  Find some other article about where you can dervice those same nutrients, t doesn't fucking matter to me.  Data is not knowledge.  I remember when I worked in orchard country going to a federal research lab and talking to "scientists" about biological control of pests using insects and such.  We went into their greenhouse where they grew sample plants to use in the laboratories and I noticed a bunch of volunteer plants grown on the greenhouse floor.  It blew me away that none of the scientists could identify the volunteers!  They were so "specialized" in their scope they had no idea (and weirdly enough no curiosity about) what was growing right under their feet.  People are so fucking narrow minded nowadays, and it's to be expected.  We are trained in such a way as to limit our abilty to perceive the world, and most if it is fear based education.  And now we are being totally alienated from knowing nature as THE SOURCE, that people don't even know how to learn from their surroundings, observation and experiences.  Sure they can write down data but their scope is so small and they necessitate beig able to make everything clean, linear, calculatable... That's not life.  this is a huge mutliverse and a lot of it is meant to be felt rather than interpreted through our diminished mental capacities.  People are totally being physically and psychologically damaged by the over culture that has made false history and abstracted technology religions.  The more you rely on technology and listen to the sick murmurs of our overculutre that the only way "out" is to continue at the same rate and in the same direction of "progress" the sicker and weaker we will become as a species.  There is no healthy future using the fear, war and control based technologies men have created.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 05:17:50 am by jessica »

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2015, 05:58:56 am »
Honestly, Jessica, it looks like you're still suffering from that mood disorder you claim to have recovered from.  I'm sad for you, I know that must be hard.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2015, 06:28:10 am »
Honestly, Jessica, it looks like you're still suffering from that mood disorder you claim to have recovered from.  I'm sad for you, I know that must be hard.
It must be so sad for you  to reject anything natural, whether it be palaeolithic or an integral part of Nature etc........Philistine is the word that describes you so well.....
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline jessica

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2015, 06:51:37 am »
Low blow, my friend.  If that's the best you have keep at it.  I am totally emotionally resilient and intact.  If the fact that I can recognize fault and feel grief means that I have a mood disorder, so be it. 

Isn't there a saying that it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society?  It took me years to realize I wasn't the one who was nuts.  I am actually just extremely perceptive and have an unruined soul.  I'm lucky, even when the world tried to break me from trusting my own nature, the nature inside of me, I always relied on the nature outside of me to be my guide.  And in that way I was able to recognize and regain my instincts and health, mentally, psychically and emotionally. Part ofthat journey was figuring out how to nourish my body in a way that didnt stimulate mental unrest and physical degeneration.   That's why I am here.  I see our current system and way of believing as a global culture only progressing in ways that cause mental unrest and physical degeneration, why would I accept that?  Why would not those same principals that truely heal one not heal all when we are all so basically similar.  We can't go towards a world with no air, sun or water because these are the very things we coevolved with, if we do we are not human.  I am not for trans humanism for whatever the fuck scifi future everyone has such a boner about these days.

Your thinking about growing veggies in an artificial environment with lame inputs is why the industrial agriculural system is a failure.  Same shit different pile.

Also, if you want to discuss psychology, it must suck to be in a culture where you should be enjoying praise for the many initiations you have gone through and services you bring to the community, but you don't because I am guessin you are some kinda desk Jocky and your worth is symbolic and abstract and nobody gives a why.  You are numbers.  So here you are tryin to convince people your value and earn accolades and following from folks on a message board.  Wouldn't it be nice to exist within a different paradigm?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 07:36:11 am by jessica »

 

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