Author Topic: The opposition.  (Read 38336 times)

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Offline lb_on_the_cb

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2015, 01:25:26 am »
whens the last time any of you lived in a heavily GM/chemical agricultural zone and actually saw AND WERE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE first hand how devastating it is to an ecosystem?

i see dead soil here on a farm just on the edge of town.  just totally dead, no organic matter.  somehow the crop grows and looks ok but maybe thats the reason supermkt produce has no taste for me. 

i also live near rice fields in a kind of wildlife area and there are coyotes roaming and in the winter time its kind of a flood zone and manmade "wetland" and the ducks and other birds love it.  i dont think the soil is any better though.


You people who are too young to remember the Cold War don't know what it was like. We literally came within a few minutes of global nuclear war several times. I hear World War II kinda sucked too. I also imagine living in most of the Middle East kind of sucks right now as well, especially Iraq and Syria.

i do remember the cold war, im 48.   

But seriously, when you correct the defects in people's brains, then you take away all or most of the reason people come into conflict in the first place.

will this solve for greed, lust for power, or people that have no respect for the law? 


« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 01:42:58 am by lb_on_the_cb »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2015, 02:09:04 am »

But seriously, when you correct the defects in people's brains, then you take away all or most of the reason people come into conflict in the first place. You people who are too young to remember the Cold War don't know what it was like. We literally came within a few minutes of global nuclear war several times. I hear World War II kinda sucked too. I also imagine living in most of the Middle East kind of sucks right now as well, especially Iraq and Syria.
  It all depends on who defines what is a defect. If the brain really could be controlled within 2 decades, (thankfully not likely), we would be far more likely to be brainwashed than before. And all those past wars have nothing to do with brain-defects but had to do with special interest groups, financial interests, religious differences etc. etc. Hmm, I do not like religion much, but imagine if the morons in charge outlawed specific religious beliefs for being "defective" and declared that all those with such beliefs had to be treated. Just like Communism all over again, really....
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2015, 03:20:17 am »
  It all depends on who defines what is a defect. If the brain really could be controlled within 2 decades, (thankfully not likely), we would be far more likely to be brainwashed than before. And all those past wars have nothing to do with brain-defects but had to do with special interest groups, financial interests, religious differences etc. etc. Hmm, I do not like religion much, but imagine if the morons in charge outlawed specific religious beliefs for being "defective" and declared that all those with such beliefs had to be treated. Just like Communism all over again, really....


Those wars were the result of greed, ignorance, and bigotry, which can all be seen on an fMRI scan.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2015, 03:23:16 am »
i see dead soil here on a farm just on the edge of town.  just totally dead, no organic matter.  somehow the crop grows and looks ok but maybe thats the reason supermkt produce has no taste for me. 

i also live near rice fields in a kind of wildlife area and there are coyotes roaming and in the winter time its kind of a flood zone and manmade "wetland" and the ducks and other birds love it.  i dont think the soil is any better though.


i do remember the cold war, im 48.   

will this solve for greed, lust for power, or people that have no respect for the law? 




Any personality problem that can show up on an fMRI scan can be studied, and if it can be studied, it can be fixed. And they all show up on fMRI scans, because blood flow in the brain is the ultimate truth-teller. You are where the blood flows in your brain.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2015, 04:00:42 am »
Those wars were the result of greed, ignorance, and bigotry, which can all be seen on an fMRI scan.
They were the result of various odious special interests, not just basic  human emotions. Also, if one allows any one group to have the arrogance to define what is ignorance, greed or bigotry or whatever and decides to get rid of them, then the human race as a whole will be faced with a terrible, brainwashed future and ultimate doom. I recall Damon Knight's famous short-story,"The Country of the Kind", where humankind has in the future gotten rid of all its  desire for aggression and violence, through eugenics, genetic engineering and social engineering/brainwashing etc.. But, in so doing, they also managed to get rid of the human artistic ability and the human ability to reach beyond themselves and create ever newer concepts/ideas. The result is an odious, stagnant society. Simply put, all so-called "negative" emotions are part and parcel of humanity- you take those away from humans, then they are no longer human.

What I am stating is that the further we get away from Nature, the more likely we will eventually become extinct, in accordance with the Great Filter theory which gives the only logical explanation for the Fermi paradox.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline lb_on_the_cb

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2015, 04:24:21 am »
Any personality problem that can show up on an fMRI scan can be studied, and if it can be studied, it can be fixed. And they all show up on fMRI scans, because blood flow in the brain is the ultimate truth-teller. You are where the blood flows in your brain.

interesting.   


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2015, 06:03:16 am »
i see dead soil here on a farm just on the edge of town.  just totally dead, no organic matter.  somehow the crop grows and looks ok but maybe thats the reason supermkt produce has no taste for me. 

i also live near rice fields in a kind of wildlife area and there are coyotes roaming and in the winter time its kind of a flood zone and manmade "wetland" and the ducks and other birds love it.  i dont think the soil is any better though.


i do remember the cold war, im 48.
Me too. I remember a speech I attended with other youths by the head of the Reagan administration White House transition team, given shortly after Reagan took office, in which he said "War with the Soviet Union is inevitable." It was long before the Internet and there were no cameras or recorders, so he gleefully revealed his true apocalyptic views, perhaps hoping to sway impressionable youths. He advocated a massive military buildup and a far-right autocratic state to prepare for the "inevitable" Armageddon. He basically wanted to bring on the destruction of the human race sooner, rather than later (my guess is that he was hoping for The Rapture). Ironically, the picture he painted of his desired America was not much different than the highly militarized Soviet Union, which I pointed out to him and he said something along the lines of "Better an American version than a Soviet one" (the phrase "Better dead than red!" was experiencing something of a revival at the time--and it was on a massive banner at a sort of quasi-military youth rally/gathering I was unfortunately present at not long after--Cold War hysteria and Reaganite militarism was at a peek at the time). George Gordon Liddy later echoed that idiotic sentiment when I asked him the same basic question not many years later, after he had given a similar fanatical speech, again without cameras or recorders present. I had seen enough news reels of Hitler that I recognized that Liddy emulated some of the physical and vocal style of Hitler and Goebbels when speaking. I just looked it up and, not surprisingly, Liddy admitted that he was enthralled by Hitler's speeches and Nazi music.

I witnessed at times how mobs of people could disturbingly check their brains at the door in the right context and embrace war and fanaticism even if it risked self-annhilation. Luckily, the transition-team douchebag got a negative reception from the youthful crowd and Reagan turned out to be more peaceful than the rhetoric of his most fanatical followers. I also like to think, or at least hope, that much of the more fanatical rhetoric and crowd behavior was bluster that people would not really have acted upon--some sort of mob venting. Perhaps too optimistic of me.

Ironically, we are now fighting the Islamic Jihadists that the Reagan administration armed and trained to fight the Soviets when atheistic Communism was seen as enemy #1. It's amazing how things have dramatically changed since then--nearly flipped. Fanatical religion has replaced atheistic Communism as the #1 bogeyman. On the other hand, there is much similarity too. We still find ourselves in endless war or hostilities. My nation has been at near continuous war, either cold or hot, for pretty much my entire life so far.

Quote
will this solve for greed, lust for power, or people that have no respect for the law?
All living things have an innate drive to garner and consume energy and dissipate entropy. That's why the onward march of steamrolling "progress" is so difficult to manage and why resistance seems futile. It may also explain the Fermi paradox.

Quote
quote author=TylerDurden link=topic=10760.msg132454#msg132454 date=1442606442]What I am stating is that the further we get away from Nature, the more likely we will eventually become extinct, in accordance with the Great Filter theory which gives the only logical explanation for the Fermi paradox.
Fascinating. I just noticed that you too mentioned the Fermi paradox (sorry, I sometimes skim the comments instead of reading everything). So you have also recognized the mess our species is in.

If the destructive technology explanation is accurate, then resistance is nearly futile (with mavericks like you and me being drowned out by the millions calling for endless so-called "progress"), but we may as well try to resist, via things like raw Paleo diets and lifestyles. Might as well make our existence interesting and try to be the one intelligent species in the universe that somehow manages to survive.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 06:56:29 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2015, 07:58:34 am »
Fascinating. I just noticed that you too mentioned the Fermi paradox (sorry, I sometimes skim the comments instead of reading everything). So you have also recognized the mess our species is in.

If the destructive technology explanation is accurate, then resistance is nearly futile (with mavericks like you and me being drowned out by the millions calling for endless so-called "progress"), but we may as well try to resist, via things like raw Paleo diets and lifestyles. Might as well make our existence interesting and try to be the one intelligent species in the universe that somehow manages to survive.
You are correct. I do believe the Great Filter hypothesis is the correct one, sadly. For us to easily avoid it, we would have to be the very first sentient species to undergo interstellar travel("Rare Earth Hypothesis"), highly unlikely, given the many billions of years this Universe has already gone through). More than likely, virtually all species become extinct once they reach the point where they have just barely gone into Space but yet  failed to reach more distant locations, such as other solar systems.

There seems to be a conundrum, whereby some humans can be quite intelligent as individuals, but fail vastly when mingled together as mindless groups(eg:- The Roman Mob).
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2015, 08:03:02 am »
Tyler, you miss the obvious possibility that advanced aliens have no interest in us. We spend very little in the way of resources to study traditional tribes, and they are pretty much the same as us. How much less resources would we dedicate if we were so much farther advanced that we were effectively a different species?

Offline lb_on_the_cb

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2015, 10:25:50 am »
Me too. I remember a speech I attended with other youths by the head of the Reagan administration White House transition team, given shortly after Reagan took office, in which he said "War with the Soviet Union is inevitable." It was long before the Internet and there were no cameras or recorders, so he gleefully revealed his true apocalyptic views, perhaps hoping to sway impressionable youths. He advocated a massive military buildup and a far-right autocratic state to prepare for the "inevitable" Armageddon. He basically wanted to bring on the destruction of the human race sooner, rather than later (my guess is that he was hoping for The Rapture). Ironically, the picture he painted of his desired America was not much different than the highly militarized Soviet Union, which I pointed out to him and he said something along the lines of "Better an American version than a Soviet one" (the phrase "Better dead than red!" was experiencing something of a revival at the time--and it was on a massive banner at a sort of quasi-military youth rally/gathering I was unfortunately present at not long after--Cold War hysteria and Reaganite militarism was at a peek at the time). George Gordon Liddy later echoed that idiotic sentiment when I asked him the same basic question not many years later, after he had given a similar fanatical speech, again without cameras or recorders present. I had seen enough news reels of Hitler that I recognized that Liddy emulated some of the physical and vocal style of Hitler and Goebbels when speaking. I just looked it up and, not surprisingly, Liddy admitted that he was enthralled by Hitler's speeches and Nazi music.

I witnessed at times how mobs of people could disturbingly check their brains at the door in the right context and embrace war and fanaticism even if it risked self-annhilation. Luckily, the transition-team douchebag got a negative reception from the youthful crowd and Reagan turned out to be more peaceful than the rhetoric of his most fanatical followers. I also like to think, or at least hope, that much of the more fanatical rhetoric and crowd behavior was bluster that people would not really have acted upon--some sort of mob venting. Perhaps too optimistic of me.

Ironically, we are now fighting the Islamic Jihadists that the Reagan administration armed and trained to fight the Soviets when atheistic Communism was seen as enemy #1. It's amazing how things have dramatically changed since then--nearly flipped. Fanatical religion has replaced atheistic Communism as the #1 bogeyman. On the other hand, there is much similarity too. We still find ourselves in endless war or hostilities. My nation has been at near continuous war, either cold or hot, for pretty much my entire life so far.
All living things have an innate drive to garner and consume energy and dissipate entropy. That's why the onward march of steamrolling "progress" is so difficult to manage and why resistance seems futile. It may also explain the Fermi paradox.
Fascinating. I just noticed that you too mentioned the Fermi paradox (sorry, I sometimes skim the comments instead of reading everything). So you have also recognized the mess our species is in.

If the destructive technology explanation is accurate, then resistance is nearly futile (with mavericks like you and me being drowned out by the millions calling for endless so-called "progress"), but we may as well try to resist, via things like raw Paleo diets and lifestyles. Might as well make our existence interesting and try to be the one intelligent species in the universe that somehow manages to survive.

interesting. 

You know what i liked about Liddy?  he didn't say (like a little pssy)  "Its the the YouTube fellas fault! He did it! He got them muslims all riled up and they couldnt control themselves!  Now excuse me i got some big donors in Vegas"

He took the blame like a man and went to prison.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2015, 09:48:14 pm »
You are correct. I do believe the Great Filter hypothesis is the correct one, sadly. For us to easily avoid it, we would have to be the very first sentient species to undergo interstellar travel("Rare Earth Hypothesis"), highly unlikely, given the many billions of years this Universe has already gone through). More than likely, virtually all species become extinct once they reach the point where they have just barely gone into Space but yet  failed to reach more distant locations, such as other solar systems.

There seems to be a conundrum, whereby some humans can be quite intelligent as individuals, but fail vastly when mingled together as mindless groups(eg:- The Roman Mob).
Well put. Presumably most alien civilizations also perish before they get to the point where they have the technology to contact us. It could be that they choose not to, but that seems less likely given that we started communicating as soon as we had the capability, and in spite of the possibility that it might attract a predator civilization. Our achieving interstellar communication thus seems like a notable technological achievement.

He took the blame like a man and went to prison.
He addressed that. He said he was proud of what he did and would do it again, including not only the Watergate break in, but also the arming of fellow prison inmates and planning and leading a prison break (whether he actually did these other things, I don't know, he bragged quite a bit). The basic philosophy he espoused was that of the ends justify the means.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 09:58:33 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2015, 10:32:11 pm »
Tyler, you miss the obvious possibility that advanced aliens have no interest in us. We spend very little in the way of resources to study traditional tribes, and they are pretty much the same as us. How much less resources would we dedicate if we were so much farther advanced that we were effectively a different species?
It does not matter whether advanced aliens had no interest in us, per se. Simply because they were so far advanced we would have seen some evidence of their passing, whether in the form of Cerenkov radiation or whatever.No such evidence exists, so we can safely state that no spacefaring aliens have ever been anywhere near us. Yes, I know there is all that Von-Danikenesque stuff, but that has been proven bogus long ago.

Let us say, that there were indeed spacefaring aliens around, then, logically, they certainly would be worried about other species developing interstellar travel in the future and becoming rivals, and so they would take steps to prevent that from happening.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline lb_on_the_cb

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2015, 12:13:43 am »
He addressed that. He said he was proud of what he did and would do it again, including not only the Watergate break in, but also the arming of fellow prison inmates and planning and leading a prison break (whether he actually did these other things, I don't know, he bragged quite a bit). The basic philosophy he espoused was that of the ends justify the means.
eh i dont agree with any of that behaviour but it would be refreshing if some politicians today actually accepted the consequences of their actions like Liddy did instead of lying thru their teeth.

"I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN!"  (matter fact never seen that bitch in my life)

"CANDY, I SAID IT WAS TERRORISM DIDNT I?"  (hmm, yes u did king, i think you said that once.  of course you said that dirty youtube fella done it about a thousand times)

Tyler, you miss the obvious possibility that advanced aliens have no interest in us. We spend very little in the way of resources to study traditional tribes, and they are pretty much the same as us. How much less resources would we dedicate if we were so much farther advanced that we were effectively a different species?

i heard one of science geniuses (Hawking?) recently said that it wasnt a great idea to try to contact aliens because there was a good chance that they wouldn't be friendly.   (and that what we've done so far was already a mistake)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 12:44:28 am by lb_on_the_cb »

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2015, 01:10:51 am »
It does not matter whether advanced aliens had no interest in us, per se. Simply because they were so far advanced we would have seen some evidence of their passing, whether in the form of Cerenkov radiation or whatever.No such evidence exists, so we can safely state that no spacefaring aliens have ever been anywhere near us. Yes, I know there is all that Von-Danikenesque stuff, but that has been proven bogus long ago.

Let us say, that there were indeed spacefaring aliens around, then, logically, they certainly would be worried about other species developing interstellar travel in the future and becoming rivals, and so they would take steps to prevent that from happening.

Why would they automatically be spacefaring? If their technology is that good, it's also good enough for physical immortality, making there no need for reproduction , which would keep the population steady. A steady population means there's no need to expand territory.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2015, 01:34:53 am »
It does not matter whether advanced aliens had no interest in us, per se. Simply because they were so far advanced we would have seen some evidence of their passing, whether in the form of Cerenkov radiation or whatever.No such evidence exists, so we can safely state that no spacefaring aliens have ever been anywhere near us. Yes, I know there is all that Von-Danikenesque stuff, but that has been proven bogus long ago.

Let us say, that there were indeed spacefaring aliens around, then, logically, they certainly would be worried about other species developing interstellar travel in the future and becoming rivals, and so they would take steps to prevent that from happening.

Higher Consciousness within living organisms must be sparsely distributed throughout the cosmos. As life of a habitable planet evolves the organisms feed each other and evolve as one. Beginning with the slime molds reaching upward and outward primitive forms cover the world, and by transforming solar energy through a biological matrix the collective enterprise of differentiated beings work together to terraform the lifeless rock into a celestial womb in which the seeds of consciousness can grow.

Reaching the apex of terrestrial biological evolution by which it is possible to leave the mother planet for other star systems must be an even rarer event than the arising of consciousness, there may not be any others within our galactic neighborhood close enough to make contact, even if such methods of faster than light communications were possible. The likely scenario is that we are not alone in the universe, though we are marooned in the cosmic boondocks by the vastness of intergalactic space and time.

I like the story of "the forbidden planet" and how it could be applied to whats going on today. An ancient race of advanced beings began working on this great endeavor. They found a way though technology to amplify and interconnect the power of their minds( the internet) but when the time came to test their greatest achievement, which was the ability to control all matter with the power of their minds, their whole civilization was destroyed in an instant, by monsters which lived in the subconsciousness which were unleashed with limitless power. I see how humanity is racing at break neck speed to develop these supernatural technological powers, without realizing the kind of soulless monsters who may in subsequent generations inevitably inherit such power, and could lead potentially to our own destruction.
...............
I've been trying to focus more and more on the integral symbiotic and mutually evolving nature of life and how it operates? Though there are leaps and bounds being made in this field, it still fields like there needs to be as much effort into discovering the unified field theory of biology as there seems to be in the fields of physics.

There are so many connections which the mainstream seems ignorant of, even with the emergences of so many luminary minds we all now have access to. Many of times I lie awake at night on the cusp of some great insight, only that when I try to outwardly explain it in words, it seems to not be able to encompass the entirety of the insight.

Just think about the world as a huge compost heap where the dead are converted into living mater and constantly fluctuating between life and death, form and void, then think about us, an evolved being which is the aggregation of the eons of a multilateral mutigenetic chain reaction. Ive come to realize that despite how far we have come in our understanding we still have very little understanding of how things work in entirety,

The problem arises when individuals whom are possessed by the false notion that they know whats really going on, insist upon acting on their ignorance in ways that from this" hypothetical" perspective of some advanced alien race would appear to be tragically insane.

These aberrant Ideas have permeated every orifice, edephis, facade of our modern world...they can be seen reflected in the political, biological, and spiritual zeitgeist of our age, and there isn't anyone here who is not infected in someway.

"Infection" is good example of one of these aberrant ideas run amoke. Beings immersed within a shared environment become in a sense infected by each other and inoculated by each other. There is a very fine line between infection inoculation, or emersion( which leads to adaption) both in human thought as in biological evolution.

Early in the development of biological science one aspect of the life process was identified, abstracted and obsessed over, to the point where many subsequent discoveries have been completely overshadowed by it. Germ theory is responsible for turning life against itself in the mind of humanity. The bacteria and microbes which are our symbient coevolving partners in the living enterprise where demonized outright because at the time there was no way to know of the myriad of other environmental influences which kept the checks and balances.

Checks and balances are more associated with political life, but their origins emerged from within the divine spark which holds all of existence together. Our huge brains are fueled and nourished by a gut full of microbes that seek out a balance from within us. Perhaps it is these insatiable microbes which where the driving force of our evolved brains to begin with. These microbes needed a way for their symbiont( Humans) to be able to manipulate the outer environment in order to maximize thier internal abundance. During the times when starvation was always not far away, the death agony of trillions of symbiont microbes and their bio secretions drove our species to higher and higher states of evolutionary awareness. Ecoli bacterial forms which flourish in the human gut are now known to produce brain food nutrients. These microbs produce critical enzymes and vitamins which are absolutely vital in maintaining the gargantuan demands of our brains. Foolishly when the signs that we are not getting what is necessary to maintain a healthy and well functioning mind, became apparent, instead of going back to a more evolutionary diet, factory foods began to be fortified with synthetic vitamin and mineral supplements, though these fake nutrients can stave off severes signs of deficiency, there is no way to arbitrarily measure the proper balance needed. These synthetic vitamins now being added to everything reek havok with the balance of gut microbes and keep one perpetually dependent on the vicious cycle of haphazard nutrition and unchecked imbalance.

Perhaps part of the reason for the diminished brain size as well as the epidemic rise in mental dysfunction in our current generation is the obliteration of our symbiant gut organisms, as well as the subsequent imbalances that occurred once we began to isolate and insulate ourselves against the natural order. The soil in which we lived harbored the life force which we used to protect and serve us through our evolutionary journey. The myriad of substances secreted by microbes, fungi, plants and animals consumed by our ancestors fueled our mutagenic assent, but have now been greatly reduced, so now we are faced with the task of maintaining a demanding brain on less and less optimal fuel, so as a result the body is forced to economise leading to smaller brain size and more and more cognitive decline 

Now the world is becoming monocultured, antibioticed, antiviraled, monsantoed, rounduped by herbicidal bactericidal manicas who know nothing about how what they are doing is upsetting the checks and balances of the universal order. The signs are clear and the writing is on the wall, but I apprehend that as this system progresses there will be fewer and fewer whom are wise enough to be able to read the old earth centered language, nor will anyone longer value the notion of a soul and its interconnected relationship to earth as a biological being.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 01:47:30 am by sabertooth »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2015, 02:16:42 am »
Why would they automatically be spacefaring? If their technology is that good, it's also good enough for physical immortality, making there no need for reproduction , which would keep the population steady. A steady population means there's no need to expand territory.
Good answer. But the urge to reproduce is pretty powerful among all biological species, for obvious reasons. Also, as technology increases it becomes more able to affect distant environments as well. So, just like 20th century humans could affect distant parts halfway around the world by flying there or lobbing atomic weapons there etc.,  so could aliens have a powerful effect on distant stars. Besides, you are assuming a stagnant, decadent alien society that refuses to explore new areas/dimensions etc. Plus, any alien civilisation that just stayed where it was would eventually become extinct due to, say, a sudden release of gamma-rays or some similiar cosmic disaster in the galactic neighbourhood.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2015, 02:23:34 am »
Higher Consciousness within living organisms must be sparsely distributed throughout the cosmos. As life of a habitable planet evolves the organisms feed each other and evolve as one. Beginning with the slime molds reaching upward and outward primitive forms cover the world, and by transforming solar energy through a biological matrix the collective enterprise of differentiated beings work together to terraform the lifeless rock into a celestial womb in which the seeds of consciousness can grow.

Reaching the apex of terrestrial biological evolution by which it is possible to leave the mother planet for other star systems must be an even rarer event than the arising of consciousness, there may not be any others within our galactic neighborhood close enough to make contact, even if such methods of faster than light communications were possible. The likely scenario is that we are not alone in the universe, though we are marooned in the cosmic boondocks by the vastness of intergalactic space and time.
Please read the Fermi Paradox. It points out that, over billions of years of the Universe existing, that there must have been sentient aliens existing well before us. If interstellar travel was indeed possible, then even if such alien species were  far,far away, they would, even at the slowest (non-FTL) speed, have reached us by now or at least made some sign of their presence:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
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Offline lb_on_the_cb

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2015, 02:39:33 am »
Please read the Fermi Paradox. It points out that, over billions of years of the Universe existing, that there must have been sentient aliens existing well before us. If interstellar travel was indeed possible, then even if such alien species were  far,far away, they would, even at the slowest (non-FTL) speed, have reached us by now or at least made some sign of their presence:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

its all opinion. 

 for how long did scientists think that planets were few and far between and now they find them all over the place.  maybe the circumstances for life to develop are extremely rare or maybe they arent, nobody knows for sure and then if we find other life they will all say "of course it makes sense"  and if we dont then they will adjust their models in the other direction and say how truly rare the circumstances on earth are.  just more bs.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2015, 02:56:00 am »
The issue is not whether we find other life but whether interstellar travel is at all possible. Indeed, the Great Filter Theory will apparently be more or less proven if we discover any form of life on other planets via telescope etc. If we discover intelligent life at a distance, then the Great Filter Theory is proven, almost beyond doubt.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2612958/Could-search-alien-life-trigger-end-humanity-Great-Filter-theory-suggests-habitable-exoplanets-spell-demise.html
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2015, 02:56:51 am »
Good answer. But the urge to reproduce is pretty powerful among all biological species, for obvious reasons. Also, as technology increases it becomes more able to affect distant environments as well. So, just like 20th century humans could affect distant parts halfway around the world by flying there or lobbing atomic weapons there etc.,  so could aliens have a powerful effect on distant stars. Besides, you are assuming a stagnant, decadent alien society that refuses to explore new areas/dimensions etc. Plus, any alien civilisation that just stayed where it was would eventually become extinct due to, say, a sudden release of gamma-rays or some similiar cosmic disaster in the galactic neighbourhood.

As people grow more wealthy, better-educated, and longer-lived, they reproduce less and less, and later in life. Why would that trend reverse?

As far as stagnation, why would they be interested in random backwater solar systems? I can see them investigating unusual environments like black holes, but regular solar systems are not going to hold any mystery for a race like that.

As far as becoming extinct from a gamma ray burst, that's silly. If they are aware of such dangers, which they would be of necessity, then they would have technology to guard against them.

The idea I find interesting is a solar system with two intelligent races on two different habitable planets just happening to evolve at the same time. Now that could be a true space war...but that's the only situation where something like that could happen.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2015, 03:30:20 am »
Its not that Earth like planets where life flourishes are rare in the universe, chances are they are quite numerous, its just the vast scales of space and time are very difficult to fathom. The Fermi Paradox in a half ass way explains why we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life within our local group, but in no way is anyone capable of saying that such advanced beings with godlike technological powers have not arisen from other galaxies far beyond our primitive signals to possibly ever reach. With everything in flux, even at the peak of an alpha and omega extraterrestrial civilization, there is no way for us monkeys to know what the next step would be. Do they go out with a bang as in "forbidden Planet" or a Whimper like many of earth's creatures relegated to evolutionary dead ends, or has there ever been an instance when beings evolve to the point where they transcend the threshold of the Gods, and learn to harness the great cosmic forces in ways beyond anything we could imagine? What good does such imaginings do for us here on earth?

That being the case it seems more logical to take a slow downed approach and realize we are at a phase of our own development when anyone of these future scenarios I've outlined seems possible. When and if we do take to the stars, let it be from a place of peace and balance, and not as Mckenna exclaimed it to be, an escape from a fire in a mad house. Because the conditions from which such a departure is made will govern the ends. If a balanced race of enlightened and free humans have cultivated the technology necessary to take the next step in a such a way that is not forced, then blessed be those whom we may meet along the way....But if our journey outward is a mere escape from a dying world of fear and depravity then I fear the safety for any inhabitants of a less advanced civilization that humans may venture too.

Future Humans are the extra terrestrials, it depends upon us as to what those aliens will be like?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 03:36:35 am by sabertooth »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2015, 03:42:47 am »
As people grow more wealthy, better-educated, and longer-lived, they reproduce less and less, and later in life. Why would that trend reverse?
Not all that sure that this is a given. For example, the general downward trend among UK births has only been reversed recently by the wealthiest UKers who are all now having tons of children. The upper-clases/wealthiest tend to have far more children in all ancient and modern societies than the rest of the population, with the exception of the working-class.
Quote
As far as stagnation, why would they be interested in random backwater solar systems? I can see them investigating unusual environments like black holes, but regular solar systems are not going to hold any mystery for a race like that.
If a particular species was about to discover interstellar travel, there would be competion involved, which no sane alien civilisation would tolerate.
Quote
As far as becoming extinct from a gamma ray burst, that's silly. If they are aware of such dangers, which they would be of necessity, then they would have technology to guard against them.
Gamma-ray bursts are a seriously-considered extinction possibility by scientists:-
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.113.231102

http://www.livescience.com/49040-gamma-ray-burst-mass-extinction.html

The point being that if the aliens were genuinely insular and stuck to their original solar system(an unlikely possibility if they had interstellar travel), then gamma-ray bursts would have easily wiped them out.

Quote
The idea I find interesting is a solar system with two intelligent races on two different habitable planets just happening to evolve at the same time. Now that could be a true space war...but that's the only situation where something like that could happen.
Actually some scientists have suggested that if interstellar travel were possible, that interstellar warfare would also be possible(and a lot more dangerous - imagine if only a kilo or so were projected at incredible FTL speeds at a planet, the damage would be catastrophic).
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 10:29:46 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2015, 03:54:08 am »
Its not that Earth like planets where life flourishes are rare in the universe, chances are they are quite numerous, its just the vast scales of space and time are very difficult to fathom. The Fermi Paradox in a half ass way explains why we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life within our local group, but in no way is anyone capable of saying that such advanced beings with godlike technological powers have not arisen from other galaxies far beyond our primitive signals to possibly ever reach. With everything in flux, even at the peak of an alpha and omega extraterrestrial civilization, there is no way for us monkeys to know what the next step would be. Do they go out with a bang as in "forbidden Planet" or a Whimper like many of earth's creatures relegated to evolutionary dead ends, or has there ever been an instance when beings evolve to the point where they transcend the threshold of the Gods, and learn to harness the great cosmic forces in ways beyond anything we could imagine? What good does such imaginings do for us here on earth?

According to the very theory of Technological Singularity that you espouse, and even according to Ray Kurzweil, whichever alien species reaches the Technological Singularity first, will change the entire Universe, in a process of "mindfire", into a gigantic computer, where there will be no space left for other alien species to develop.So, your theory is bunk. OK, so if aliens developed in entirely different galaxies, then maybe a few alien species do develop galactic travel, but go extinct once their galaxies die out.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2015, 10:56:51 am »
Hear me out on this, its very possible that the fabric of the universe is woven in such bunk.

Its not imperative that the mindfire kindled by a technological singularity would obstruct other beings from raising to higher consciousness. The results from such an event as an engineered singularity are only limited by the imagination of the beings involved in its creation.

I espouse a multiversal cosmos where singularities of this sort have already occurred, and perhaps the ripples of such events have already reshaped our universe in ways that are favorable to the emergence of the conditions which has enabled or own species rise to awareness. What more awesome way for ascended beings to utilize the infinitesimal possibilities in their control than to use such powers to spread the seeds of consciousness through the matrix of all space and eternity. With the experience gathered from a truly eternal existence. There is no telling what such beings are capable of or inclined to do.

If there is a God then perhaps the "almighty" is an ascended Alien, and our universe is some sort of creation which serves as  a Zen garden, to bemuse the great celestial entity and keep them company. Eternity after the singularity would be a lonely place once all other beings have been extinguished, so perhaps these Gods which work in mysterious ways to rekindle the flame of life and allow it to bloom into sentients throughout all creation.

"Time is of no importance, only life is important"
The 5th Element



 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 01:43:44 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The opposition.
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2015, 05:48:40 pm »
A genuine god or gods, however, would always want to interfere, if only out of boredom. Besides, the whole point that Kurzweil makes is that every atom in the Universe/multiverse is changed into becoming part of a vast, omnipresent computer, so I do not see how it could be something else as well.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 10:30:48 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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