Author Topic: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".  (Read 36023 times)

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Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2009, 01:47:32 am »
Sometimes we have to let go of our dogmas. You have to open your mind to the fact that you may be very wrong. I've had to do this in many aspects of my life, especially after learning how wrong the mainstream nutritional advice is. 

We are told things by the certified "experts" in the communities of medicine, science, history, religion, etc. and many of these people are just repeaters. They are passed on false knowledge brought about by faulty scientific methods or research and they repeat it to the laity. It is not to be questioned. There is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Well, now I'm starting to rant so I'll just leave it at that.

 

That's bullcrap. I have no dogma whatsoever about food. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE.

I STRENUOUSLY EMPHASIZED THAT I WOULD NOT TRY TO IMPRESS MY DIET ON OTHERS, JUST THAT I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT PALEO MAN ATE AND THE CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THERE. YOU'RE THE GUYS TRYING TO CONVERT ME!!!

The fact is that I am doing better than I ever did in my life because I'm mainly fruitarian. The other fact is that the certified "experts" are all going over to the high-protein side. So do not talk to ME about letting "go of our dogmas", fruitarianism is the least dogmatic of ALL.
 
If I felt there was a chance I could be "wrong" I would simply eat more eggs, more fish and maybe some meat. IMO there's a chance the vegans who don't eat any protein might be wrong... that's why I'm not a total vegan.

PaleoPhil as before it's going to take me ages to even read all that, nevermind respond to it. Maybe I will later.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2009, 03:02:51 am »
The problem I see is to eat so much fat with 100g of protein.
Is pemmican with nearly 2 times more fat than dried meat really tasty ?

I have trouble actually doing this, partly because I have to eat yucky ungrassfed beef fat, until I get some help trans-shipping Slanker's tallow to Canada.
Here are the contents of two stickies that I've pasted on my desktop; they are from the paleofood list.

> The key -- and very few well-informed, well-meaning low carb paleo
> advocates get this -- is to LIMIT PROTEIN INTAKE to approximately 100g
> per day, making up the balance in quality fats.  For those starting out,
> it can be hard to do for the first few days.  But once over that hump,
> it becomes almost instinctive.

Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Jim Swayze

so, for me, 1.45gĀ±0.25/kg=~125g protein, plus 223g tallow=348g pemmican. Maximum, to avoid gluconeogenesis and create optimum therapeutic
> window for human metabolism

--------------------------------

Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio

Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11


1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and 
Physical Performance":

"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance 
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum 
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein 
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and 
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 ā€“ 1.7 g/kg 
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate 
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with 
reference weights ranging from 60ā€“80 kg, this translates into total 
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent 
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When 
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000ā€“
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if 
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.

The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg 
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of 
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as 
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given 
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max 
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5 
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.

At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the 
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient 
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher 
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative 
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a 
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition, 
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise 
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean 
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to 
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of 
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and 
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among 
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."


2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low 
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start 
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.   
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your 
weight.  There are a few more calculations involved for the 
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.

Here's a quote from the book:

"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you 
can eat it in unlimited quantities.  When you eat more protein than 
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is 
largely converted  into glucose and burned as fuel.  It turns you 
into a sugar maker and sugar burner!  This is not desirable or healthy."

Jim Swayze


William

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2009, 04:19:40 am »
The problem I see is to eat so much fat with 100g of protein.
Is pemmican with nearly 2 times more fat than dried meat really tasty ?


No problem, fat satisfies.

The only pemmican I've made so far was with the few pounds of grassfed fat/tallow. There will be no more for several months, however I could not stop eating snacking on it, even though it tasted like tallow soup with a mild jerky flavour.

This is a very weird way of eating. But there is no going back.

William

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2009, 04:31:40 am »
I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT PALEO MAN ATE AND THE CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THERE. YOU'RE THE GUYS TRYING TO CONVERT ME!!!

Snicker. May as well put on your paranoid hat, because everyone is trying to convert you, from Banting in the 19th century (he must have seen you coming) through Stefansson and Blake F. Donaldson, the troll L. Cordain and the archaelogists who had the bones of paleoman analyzed and found their composition identical to those of wild African lions. Lions not known to eat much fruit.
Possible even the fool Wrongham is against you.

If your diet is working for you, great, but please be aware that some here and on the paleofood list have tried the same and found that it did not work for them. It would not hurt for you to show some respect for that hard-won experience.

The school of hard knocks is still the best teacher.

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2009, 07:03:24 am »
Snicker. May as well put on your paranoid hat, because everyone is trying to convert you, from Banting in the 19th century (he must have seen you coming) through Stefansson and Blake F. Donaldson, the troll L. Cordain and the archaelogists who had the bones of paleoman analyzed and found their composition identical to those of wild African lions. Lions not known to eat much fruit.

Again read Man The Hunted, I said that they didn't explicit/contentious claims like: "man was 95% fruitarian" and there's only a couple of pages dedicated to it. However the pages are also full of references to people showing that man clearly ate mostly plants (keeping in mind that mostly can mean 40% meat).  I'm no expert in the field (although I ordered a definitive paleoanthropy textbook: The Human Career yesterday so maybe I'll get there), but they offer many arguments against that. 
 
Possible even the fool Wrongham is against you.

Thanks, good to see that you can give a small compliment/respect to my views as well and are not just totally one-sided.

If your diet is working for you, great, but please be aware that some here and on the paleofood list have tried the same and found that it did not work for them. It would not hurt for you to show some respect for that hard-won experience.

The school of hard knocks is still the best teacher.

It's been 3-4 years since I started eating fully raw to begin with, it wasn't that I read about this thing online or anything so there wasn't any 'dogma' or 'theory' to it (remember I didn't wash my teeth at first)....I just felt it as being a natural thing and something I really liked. I always felt raw was better, I wanted to go all the way.  I was doing it the classical way. The only reason I've gone back on the bad foods is because of stress and not understanding how to keep off the bad foods... which are like drugs. But I think I can do it right now... I've been "clean" for two or three months depending on how you view it (sure maybe once a month I like to remember what curry and chips taste like again... maybe I'll give that up as in my own theory if I stuck with fruit I would be pleasured tastefully better as well, I don't know... some people have cheat days every week where they REALLY go all out).

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2009, 07:22:17 am »
well if you've only been doing a real fruitarian diet for two to three months i dont think that qualifies you to say that it's the best diet for you. you gotta give it more time. when i tried fruitarian i felt pretty good for a good solid two months but then started literally deteriorating. teeth were horrible and i lost way too much weight. i'd give it time

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2009, 07:35:30 am »
Well said, William and Yon Yonson.

That's bullcrap. I have no dogma whatsoever about food. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE. ....
SuperInfinity--please go easy on Rob. Remember, you were the one who mentioned that you tried fruitarianism without brushing your teeth and "it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit)"--so he is just trying to help. He's being a nice guy and did not deserve to be responded to with "that's bullcrap," regardless of whether it was technically justified or not.

Rob's trying to let you know that those cavities might not have happened if you had been eating raw red meat, fat, and organs like Lex Rooker and I (mostly) do. I can personally confirm nearly everything in Rob's excellent post (it's actually one of the best I've ever seen--thanks for the excellent post, Rob).

One thing Rob reminded me of that I stupidly neglected to mention: I too have experienced tooth remineralization (which I didn't know was possible!), in my other dental improvements. There was a hole in my tooth that was exposed to the root and extremely painful. Since transitioning to a near-Lex diet the hole has partly filled in, is no longer painful at all--even when the hygienist scrapes it--and I no longer require fluoride rinse to treat it. I've NEVER heard of anyone claiming that a fruitarian diet led to tooth remineralization.

In addition to Rob, wodgina6722 and me, at least one other raw paleo dieter has reported tooth remineralization (check out Michael Grogan's story at http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/michael-grogan/). So it seems to be more than just an isolated phenomenon.

I think that Rob, Lex, Michael Grogan and I have all tried some sort of plant-based diet in the past, whether fruitarian or vegetarian, and it didn't work for any of us. So we've tried both a plant-based diet and a heavily flesh-based diet and found the latter to be superior. Have you even tried the latter? If not, how do you know it won't work for you? Remember the old saying, "Don't knock it till you've tried it." Why not give it a 4 week trial? If it doesn't work you, then you can have some ammunition to trash us with! :-)

Quote
The fact is that I am doing better than I ever did in my life because I'm mainly fruitarian.
That's great...except for that little issue with having to "wash" your teeth "all the time." I'm not criticizing you about that--just letting you know that an even better outcome might be possible.

Quote
The other fact is that the certified "experts" are all going over to the high-protein side.
Wow! You mean Dean Ornish, Mehmet Oz, John Robbins, T. Colin Campbell, Michael Klaper, and Neal Barnard have all adopted a high-protein, flesh-based diet? Are you sure you aren't exaggerating just a bit? ;-)
 
Quote
PaleoPhil as before it's going to take me ages to even read all that, nevermind respond to it. Maybe I will later.
Padraig, if you do read it and act upon it I believe you will benefit from it, but I can't make you consider any of our opinions here, of course, including mine. Normally I wouldn't care at all whether you did or not, but being that you might be related, my other relatives wouldn't forgive me if I didn't at least offer some help. :-)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2009, 11:20:20 am »
Good heavens Padraig! Your dentist is right (which is rare for dentists). Don't give up and sacrifice your teeth to fruitarianism without first at least trying a very low carb Paleo diet.

The thing is PaleoPhil, I'm interested in eating: 1. how I want to eat and feel like eating, 2. how I'm evolved to eat and 3. taking into account other people's advice and evidence so I can "patch" up things, eg. calcium.

Fair enough? Now:

1. I'm RIGHT NOW surviving best on fruit, it's true that I haven't gone for years on this diet before but others have. I have a feeling I'll be posting here in a year's time, you can see how it went. I don't want to eat any more protein. Okay that's a small fib to be perfectly honestly, I felt a little like eating 2 eggs today (scrambled, as I don't trust raw animal products) but as I've said, lately I've been cutting all animal protein down....
2. Considering that paleo man did not eat a very low carb diet very often IN MY OPINION and if he did it would have been for a few 100,000 years at MOST, I feel he is not evolved much for it and I'm not going to eat that way.   
3. WHERE ARE YOUR VITAMINS?

WHERE ARE YOUR MINERALS?

WHERE ARE YOUR PHYTOCHEMICALS?

EVER HEARD OF FIBRE AND ITS IMPORTANCE???

There's not many around is there?! For the love of god try and  eat more fruit.

Red meat is proven to give you cancer. Raw meat and fish can give you parasites and worms. Your bones will fall apart because of your acidy environment. Your kidneys will fail. It's the high-protein diet that cannot be kept up long term.

This is as opposed to what, alleged teeth problems?

Normally I don't try to convince vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians (unless they happen to raise some issues that I'd like to crystallize my own thoughts on, which you did initially before you went way off into la-la-land ;-) ), because they often have religious/philosophical/political reasons for choosing their diet, instead of scientific/health reasons and are therefore impervious to reason and logic, and because vegheads are my best allies--they sacrifice their health so that I can eat meats more cheaply.

Palophil, let's get a bit of perspective here. I'm not a 100% fruitarian or even vegan, I have fish and sometimes eggs. I have green tea and supplements and cocoa. 90% fruitarian is VASTLY less controversial and "fruity" as 90% meat and the latter is nothing like paleo man 95% of time plus in my opinion.

Any doctor or nearly any person would tell you that 90% meat is bad and VASTLY more extreme/hardcore than 90% fruitarian.

ESPECIALLY raw meat. It's insane... sorry, I don't often go there, but I had to this time.

However, you're an Irishman and possibly a relative, based on your last name, so I'll send you at least one more lifeline. Given that you eat some fish, I figure you might possibly listen to some reason.

Animals are your relatives as well and you eat them. I'm not using this as a part of my argument as to better/worse for health, I'm just throwing you a philosophical err... bone. Would you get a knife and murder a boar by slitting its neck and then eat it? I don't have that instinct... it's not in me. Maybe YOU are evolved for it, not me.

My teeth were maloccluded from birth and beginning in my late teens to early twenties were highly prone to placque and I developed gum disease. Going standard Paleo (I continued to eat Paleo-style carbs from fruits, nuts, all-natural juices and nut milks--Ray Audette and Loren Cordain actually had discouraged consumption of fruit juices and dried fruits, but I thought they were overly strict about that and I was under lots of pressure from relatives to continue eating significant amounts of carbs) helped, but I continued to have some gum problems despite brushing and flossing multiple times a day and getting professional cleanings every three months.

After I started the transition toward VLC-Paleo, I came across some posts in another forum by Lex Rooker and another poster named "DelFuego" while looking for tips on making pemmican that were quite encouraging and motivated me to accelerate my change. Lex had reported that his loose teeth firmed up on a raw meat/fat/organs diet and within just a few weeks of going semi-raw, VLC-Paleo I experienced the same thing--and I was not even as strict as Lex (I was still eating some berries and greens and small amounts of low-sugar, all-natural juices). The more I've moved toward Lex's diet, the better my dental health, skin health and overall well being have been, so I recommend you read Lex's story before you trash Paleo diets that are high in flesh foods. You can find it here: http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/

My skin was terrible and is now slowly getting to perfection on my fruitarian-esque diet. It was terrible despite all the green tea, huge amounts of fruit, vitamins etc. etc. I was taking, the only thing to slowly kill off the little bits of acne was the fruitarian-esque diet. 

After just a month or so of transitioning to a very-low-carb (VLC), high meat/fat Paleo diet, including a significant amount of raw meats, I found I didn't need to brush and floss as much and no longer needed my prescription fluoride rinse. My hygienist was impressed with the improvement in my teeth and gums and asked if I'd been brushing and flossing more. I said no, I cut back on sweet drinks like fruit juices (I didn't tell her that I was also eating lots of meat and fat, including raw, had cut out nightshades and winter squashes completely, was actually brushing and flossing less, not more, and had stopped using my Px fluoride). She was puzzled and silent, but seemed to just barely accept that such remarkable results might be possible from that (she would have been more perplexed if I told her the whole truth :-) ).

Well good for you, everyone can do their own thing and see what works for them. Don't take this the wrong way but have you ever considered writing testimonials for flashy products sites....?

If you research Irish ancestry you'll learn that the Irish are descended from hunter-gatherers. Not fruitarians, hunter-gatherers. Embrace your heritage and your health will improve! Reject it, and you'll pay a price.
Think about it. Why were none of the people that Price studied fruitarian? If it's such a great diet, why did Price find so many peoples who were not fruitarian and healthy, whereas he found no fruitarian tribes?

My argument is that hunter-gatherers were more gatherers than they were hunters. Also there was a very long period when Irish people ate almost nothing but potatoes!!! If you couldn't survive well on potatoes (and to a lesser extent turnips and so on), then tough ****... you would be knocked out of existence by the famine if your ancestors lived through that especially. We're evolved to eat potatoes! But wait neither you or I eat any while the rest of Ireland eats them all the time...  :o  Okay moving on from that unsettling (and probably not really too important) point....

You still haven't explained where you got the idea that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. The book you mentioned, Man the Hunted, doesn't make that argument, nor did Darwin, and frugivorous apes are not humans, so where did you hear this? Surely you didn't base it on a quote or two from Darwin? Darwin must not have believed strongly in his flippant comments about a frugivorous diet, because during his travels to document his theory of evolution through natural selection, he ate an owl, armadillos, agoutis (the rodents were "best meat I ever tasted," he said), a puma, an ostrich-like bird called a Rhea, iguanas and giant tortoises. He liked giant tortoises so much "he loaded up 48 of them aboard the Beagle, to be eaten on the journey back!" (Source: http://www.neatorama.com/2008/12/04/10-fun-facts-about-charles-darwin/)

The book does make the argument a bit. Look at page 226 to page 231. They explained it better than I could, why type out things when they explain it better??? All of us here know (don't we?) that the appointed food "experts" often don't have an absolute clue about food (especially when it comes to being sensible). However I believe these guys are completely honest, there is nothing they could gain from it. I don't believe it could be made up much more than I believe evolution could be made up... big rant sorry: (as I was saying in a very lengthy and head-banging-off-desk argument with a poor soul on another forum, evolution COULD be all be made up, the fossil record could be made up, creationism COULD be true in certain definite ways and the big bang all rubbish... I'm the most anti-creationist person you could ever come across, but I still hold out the truth that it COULD be true, we're only told things about evolution and base our beliefs by what we're told.... okay sorry... rambling....)

Also, if so many people think that Stone Agers were fruitarians, as you seem to think, then why are there no Paleo-fruitarian diet forums?

Pure, unashamed, ad hominem. This is the same things you're saying over and over.

Plus, I know a vegetarian who ate lots of fruit and the enamel on her teeth deteriorated away, and a monk who lost all his teeth when his order required him to do frequent bread-and-water fasts, and another vegetarian who couldn't get pregnant until she started eating some meat, and I've read the accounts of numerous ex-vegetarians and ex-vegans who have done better on low-carb, flesh-heavy diets.

You know this person and that person and the Fruitarian Fairy came and stole their teeth and raped them while they slept and made them infertile is all hearsay and almost certainly all complete nonsense. Millions of vegetarians and vegans get pregnant every year.

One thing Rob reminded me of that I stupidly neglected to mention: I too have experienced tooth remineralization (which I didn't know was possible!), in my other dental improvements. There was a hole in my tooth that was exposed to the root and extremely painful. Since transitioning to a near-Lex diet the hole has partly filled in, is no longer painful at all--even when the hygienist scrapes it--and I no longer require fluoride rinse to treat it. I've NEVER heard of anyone claiming that a fruitarian diet led to tooth remineralization.

Back to the teeth AGAIN...? Fine, I do find it somewhat interesting to hear about your teeth remineralization.

In addition to Rob, wodgina6722 and me, at least one other raw paleo dieter has reported tooth remineralization (check out Michael Grogan's story at http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/michael-grogan/). So it seems to be more than just an isolated phenomenon.

I don't want sound obnoxious but after hearing about remineralization I thought maybe the high animal protein diet could do that. After reading this, I'm inclined to think that it probably IS a mainly isolated phenomenon

I think that Rob, Lex, Michael Grogan and I have all tried some sort of plant-based diet in the past, whether fruitarian or vegetarian, and it didn't work for any of us. So we've tried both a plant-based diet and a heavily flesh-based diet and found the latter to be superior. Have you even tried the latter? If not, how do you know it won't work for you? Remember the old saying, "Don't knock it till you've tried it." Why not give it a 4 week trial? If it doesn't work you, then you can have some ammunition to trash us with! :-)
That's great...except for that little issue with having to "wash" your teeth "all the time." I'm not criticizing you about that--just letting you know that an even better outcome might be possible.

I DID. I tried it and I hated it. I felt terrible. I said to myself never again. I've seen the problems of smoking so I won't do it, the same with high animal protein. I won't do that to my health. In my view paleo-man was 100000x more evolved for my diet of almost no animal protein. Maybe Neo-man ate much more like yours, I'll agree with you there.

You should call your diet the "neo diet"... the diet of Neolithic people. :)  I certainly wouldn't argue with it. Start up your own website about it, rawneoforum.com Don't forget to also consume other humans from time to time as neo man also probably did considering his life expectancy was about 20.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 12:10:44 pm »
Let's all be on topic as we are discussing how much fruit / veg and how much raw meat.

The thing is PaleoPhil, I'm interested in eating: 1. how I want to eat and feel like eating, 2. how I'm evolved to eat and 3. taking into account other people's advice and evidence so I can "patch" up things, eg. calcium.

We are all sharing our experiences where we feel we have been benefiting. Some do better with more fruit / veg, some do better with more meat.

1. I'm RIGHT NOW surviving best on fruit, it's true that I haven't gone for years on this diet before but others have. I have a feeling I'll be posting here in a year's time, you can see how it went.

I was on this diet and it served me well for 6 months?  Wai Diet.

I don't want to eat any more protein. Okay that's a small fib to be perfectly honestly, I felt a little like eating 2 eggs today (scrambled, as I don't trust raw animal products) but as I've said, lately I've been cutting all animal protein down....

Don't want to eat protein??? Scrambled eggs?  Don't trust raw animal products??? Maybe you need better sources of animal products you can trust.  Cutting down animal protein... are you getting old?

2. Considering that paleo man did not eat a very low carb diet very often IN MY OPINION and if he did it would have been for a few 100,000 years at MOST, I feel he is not evolved much for it and I'm not going to eat that way.   

This we do not know.  This is why we are all self experimenting with food ratios to see what works best.  Some thrive on more meat, some on less.

3. WHERE ARE YOUR VITAMINS?

Blood, organs, some fruit, some vegs.

WHERE ARE YOUR MINERALS?

Blood, organs, some fruit, some vegs.

WHERE ARE YOUR PHYTOCHEMICALS?

Blood, organs, some fruit, some vegs.

EVER HEARD OF FIBRE AND ITS IMPORTANCE???

Fibre is bad for you.  I subscribe to the idea that the marketed fiber does us no good.  Search for Fiber Menace. http://www.fibermenace.com/

Red meat is proven to give you cancer.

You must be pointing to COOKED meat.  Raw meat is cool.

Raw meat and fish can give you parasites and worms.

Fruits and vegs and the air you breath has parasites and worms.  I have zappers, herbal dewormers and know beam ray operators... parasites don't scare me.  Learn these tools and stop being afraid of parasites when they misbehave.

Your bones will fall apart because of your acidy environment. Your kidneys will fail. It's the high-protein diet that cannot be kept up long term.

only with COOKED MEAT. This is RAW PALEO... remember?

This is as opposed to what, alleged teeth problems?

If raw paleo diet with lots of meat in it make our teeth strong, this means our bones have grown stronger at the same time.


Any doctor or nearly any person would tell you that 90% meat is bad and VASTLY more extreme/hardcore than 90% fruitarian.

ESPECIALLY raw meat. It's insane... sorry, I don't often go there, but I had to this time.

Why is eating raw meat insane?  When 100% raw fruitarian did not work for me and I added raw meat it invigorated me.  Raw meat is the super food that was missing in my diet all along.

He he he, you need to slow down and be calmer, my friend.  Less sweet fruit, more fat.  Be calm.  Try more avocados for fat instead of sweet fruit.

This is getting funnier and funnier.  I came from vegan and fruitarian teachings and I can understand your passion. 
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2009, 12:33:40 pm »
    Raw animal products work, and that's it.  You can call it a hobgoblin diet for all I care, I like life.  Too many people would be dead on your diet.  Have you ever even eaten RAF, and if so, how often and for how long?  I suspect you have no experience at all.  It's ok, but doesn't sound like you'll last.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline van

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 02:04:11 pm »
YOu might want to check in with yourself and your opinions and see how many come from your experience, and how many have come from books or lectures etc...   Promise you,  there are a lot of us here who had the same concerns as you have.  We had acquired them just as your probably have.   My suggestion, either let go and try something new for yourself, if that even feels right for you, or find a group that supports your way of thinking.  Theories  and concepts abound.  There will always be those who believe what you believe.  Most here aren't much interested anymore with concepts,  more so with practice or experience.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2009, 02:50:17 pm »
well if you've only been doing a real fruitarian diet for two to three months i dont think that qualifies you to say that it's the best diet for you. you gotta give it more time. when i tried fruitarian i felt pretty good for a good solid two months but then started literally deteriorating. teeth were horrible and i lost way too much weight. i'd give it time

+1
That happened to me too! ;) My gums started to bleed after 3 months of raw fruit and veg diet. I was always hungry, lost loads of weight, had terrible mood swings and felt euphoric after consuming too much of sweet fruit.
I think that some people sometime enjoy that euphoria too much, they get addicted to it and start to believe that fruitarianism is devine :-))))))))))))))))))
Many people are addicted to sugar and fruits have loads of it. Fruitarians mistakenly believe that sugar in fruit is different to refined sugar and is safe to consume in large quantaties, but it's totally wrong.
Our body still have to produce insuline to get rid of excessive sugar levels in our blood.
Anyway I don't have time to write an essay about the dangers of fruitarianism. All I want to say is that I stay away from fruits as much as possible. I eat raw fat, raw fish, egg yolks and a little bit of raw meat and I get enough fiber, vitamins and minerals to be able to lead a happy/busy life full of joy and love. And I thank God every day for pointing me in the right direction. I've never been so happy in all my life!
Eating raw fish and meat since 17.11.08. 99% raw since 25.04.08.

Offline Cosmo

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2009, 02:58:54 pm »
Last time I checked sausages don't occur in nature, and I believe red meat can give you cancer.

You're probably talking about cooked red meat? Are cooked fruits good for you? what would happen if you eat only cooked fruits every day?
Eating raw fish and meat since 17.11.08. 99% raw since 25.04.08.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2009, 03:36:39 pm »
FRUITS = POISON.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2009, 03:42:28 pm »
FRUITS = POISON.

Oh... not for everyone.  And certainly not all fruits.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2009, 04:28:50 pm »
FRUITS = POISON.
;D ;D ;D thanks for that, you made me smile!
My favourite fruit is pineapple and I love grapes ( black and red/seeded). I don't consider them as poison, but I do eat them rarely as a treat and to be honest I feel less energetic after eating them (probably because of the high sugar content).
Eating raw fish and meat since 17.11.08. 99% raw since 25.04.08.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2009, 03:42:08 am »
There are tons of books and academic papers supporting the argument that it was animal protein that fueled the brain size increase that humans are so distinct for. I have never found any serious academic work indicating anything else....maybe Man The Hunted by Sussman or Wrangham's cooked tuber hypothesis, but I've looked and looked and really haven't found anything else. Answer me this: since modern domestic fruit didn't exist, what raw vegan plant source could have supported human brain development, considering our need for DHA and iodine too...?

The all-meat diet might not be human's ancestral diet, but it does have a proven track record in the traditional societies like the Inuit, whereas fruitarianismish vegan doesn't. Fruitarianism is even completely unlike what apes eat given that domestic fruit is so different from its wild counterparts.

But why would anyone want to eat a chimp diet? Chimps typically lose their teeth by 35, minus modern dental care a fruitarian would lose their teeth even sooner given the sugar content of modern fruit.

Vegans are fighting a losing battle when they insist their diet is the natural human ancestral one. I don't see why they can't stick to bashing factory farming and making ethical arguments, which make a zillion times more sense. Modern vegans seem to do OK...their diet doesn't work very well for most of us on this forum, but I have nothing against them unless they insist their diet is a natural one.

Personally, I don't eat sausages or gazillions of eggs.... neither is really very paleo. I don't eat tons of protein either, I don't feel so great doing that. Fruitarianism doesn't seem to be working so great for you...you don't have to eat all animal either!


Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2009, 05:47:06 am »
Raw vegan/fruitarian propagandism over wellbeing and personal efficacy (a sad situation indeed)...I'm another recovering raw vegan transitioning to "no/lo carbage" RAF to find the abundance of vitamins (particularly) and whatnot that simply are not offered for our GI tracts by the flora of the Earth...(or not in my experiential growth anyway)

I once believed that if one could culture the optimal, original endogenous (as well as exogenous) ecosystem (bio-terrain, whatever vernacular you care to use), one could be self-sufficient enough to subsist on anything that could be considered seed-bearing fruit...Woe was me for that strange, misguided period in my journey to a more favourable place.

Sadly, I read odd anecdotes of teeth healing from raw vegans (without any sound substantiation, other than simply "healing"), which is the reason I originally chose raw veganism over raw paleo. My tooth enamel loss intensified with all incarnations/variations/ratios of raw veganism (with cleansing/flushing/fasting).

Let's face it, if one can't even maintain tooth enamel and/or hold teeth in the jaw bone, what else is precipitating unnoticed in your daily metabolic life?

One wonders why traditional cultures didn't have the "innate" wisdom to just stick to flora...Was it perhaps for self-preservation and self-perpetuation?!

For me, raw veganism was a means to an end, not an end...Don't believe the hype and remember that hindsight is always 20/20.

I have to thank goodsamaritan for encouraging me to join this unmatched and good-natured community of well-intentioned, sound reasoning friends (you might say efficacy-oriented, altruistic practitioners!). I was in the position that I was already well progressed in the biliary flushing, parasite cleansing etc. stakes (general debris-clearing), yet I had exhausted all of the raw vegan approaches, which were rapidly deteriorating my complete health (e.g. enamel loss starting to manifest on all teeth - chipping, translucent on edges, no strength in bite).

How are you managing with the fast moving sugars (insulin response) in most of the hybridised domesticated (often seedless and nutrient-sparse) fruits of today? What about your daily fatty acid profile (n-3, n-6, dha etc.)? What about those fat-soluble vitamins that most compromised GI tracts have difficulty in converting from the plant-based precursors? What about bile flow for uptake of fats and fat-soluble vitamins? No vegan guru ever addressed the matter of fat-soluble vitamin deficiency (the almost pathological loss of teeth being a major indicator!). All the minerals and transmutation in the cosmos won't drive substance into the tissues without their required vitamins...

If you've already lost teeth/enamel, consider the fact that your deficient diet might be tantamount to self-abuse, which is absolutely contrary to the self-preserving, self-perpetuating aspect of true nature. Man, your remaining teeth are crying out to you to change your ways and bring yourself back into bio-balance. Swallow your pride and forget the dogma of fruitarianism.

So you think your terminal ileum bacteria are producing enough cobalamin (B12) to manage potentially fatal homocysteine levels?! Let me guess, you're eating sun-dried dirt/clay from different areas of the Earth, full of many species of probiotics that will seed your terminal ileum, facilitating endogenous B12 synthesis?

If anything, know that a lack of fat-soluble vitamins is the reason why you struggled to maintain those teeth (those vitamin-activated claws in the protein matrix in the teeth/bones just letting go of their minerals and not being able to retrieve any back). Bones and teeth are not rocks but living tissues with constant mineral turnover, subject to severe loss (or rapid increase) of density and ultimately, sensitivity/weakness/loss.

Eat some raw grass-fed organs (liver, brain - maybe marinated in lemon etc.) along with plenty of raw grass-fed fats/marrow (yum, fat-soluble vitamins) and feel the density of your jaw and teeth increase along with a great, reassuring feeling of strength in your bite - argh! The difference can be felt in a matter of days...

I'll reiterate what everyone else has said...Free your mind, reject the inculcated dogma and embrace efficacy - you will fall in love with yourself on account of your swift action to safeguard what's left of your good and most noble self!

Self-preservation, self-perpetuation!

Enjoy...Bye bye so-called true heritage!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 05:54:06 am by MrBBQ »
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2009, 05:55:57 am »
There are tons of books and academic papers supporting the argument that it was animal protein that fueled the brain size increase that humans are so distinct for. I have never found any serious academic work indicating anything else....maybe Man The Hunted by Sussman or Wrangham's cooked tuber hypothesis, but I've looked and looked and really haven't found anything else. Answer me this: since modern domestic fruit didn't exist, what raw vegan plant source could have supported human brain development, considering our need for DHA and iodine too...? 

    The beach near where I used to live naturally grew salty tasting coconuts and salty tasting sea grapes.  I looked sea grapes up just now, and they're supposed to contain a lot of iodine and prevent goiter.  SuperInfinity could always suggest we all go on sea grape rich diets.  I don't know if it grows on normal beaches though.  This was a super rough beach and many (modern) people died from the coarse currents.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2009, 06:12:34 am »
I give up, you people obviously have yourselves set on thinking a particular way.

What sort of a question is it to ask: "Well what vegan foods did they eat?" It's a ridiculous question and it's already been asked of me. I could just as easily ask "Well what animal foods did they eat?"... YES I COULD!!!! If the fruit and vegetables are all gone then so are the animals that depending on them. AGAIN... I KNOW or would assume that during the ice age we adopted a higher meat intake...

I'd make a bet that chimpanzees only lose their teeth like that after being given modern foods. And I will literally bet my right arm that chimps don't go around bawling in unbelievable agony at 40 years old in the wild like humans would if they needed a tooth extraction. 

Listen guys, the chimps eat 70%+ fruitarian, 90%+ vegan... and they're the biggest hunters of the other great apes!!! Paleo man likely ran out of food during the stone age and had to go very high on the meat, so you're SOMEWHAT evolved for it. Congratulations.

"But fruit is domesticated, it's not the same thing at all. It's like bread LOLOLOLOLOL"

No fruit is not domesticated. Sweetness isn't something normal people want or will buy more of, why would it be?! Only a person with weight issues would think that. EVEN IF IT WAS, it wouldn't make any difference AND it occurs as much if not more so in meat!!!!!

In my opinion I personally am better off on fruit.

Again, I'll post back in a year and two years and tell you who was right. People have been fruitarians for years... whereas very high protein diets are normally at least curtailed due to bone loss, acid-imbalance, heart problems, death etc.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 06:17:53 am by SuperInfinity »

Offline fishercat

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2009, 07:59:44 am »
I ain't talkin bout no zoo chimps:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110482604/abstract
Dental pathologies in ten free-ranging chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania

The dental remains of ten adult chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania, were examined for enamel attrition, caries, abscesses, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Age was the underlying factor in the development of dental pathology, in that enamel wear was present to some extent in all ten but was uniformly severe only in the three for whom estimated age at death was 39-43 years. In turn, enamel wear appears to have been the direct cause of abscess development, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Periodontal disease was commonly expressed as alveolar resorption, particularly around the premolars and molars. This involvement was variable in all except the two youngest. Some interesting wear patterns were evident in the form of deep grooves in the upper incisors and dramatic notching of the lower canines. These patterns, and enamel attrition in general, were attributed to normal mastication and to various stripping activities. Only one carious lesion was observed, in a male with an estimated age of 26 years. An accurate assessment of the actual prevalence of caries was obscured by enamel wear and tooth loss in the older individuals.

Quote
What sort of a question is it to ask: "Well what vegan foods did they eat?" It's a ridiculous question and it's already been asked of me. I could just as easily ask "Well what animal foods did they eat?"... YES I COULD!!!! If the fruit and vegetables are all gone then so are the animals that depending on them. AGAIN... I KNOW or would assume that during the ice age we adopted a higher meat intake...

Reindeer can eat lichen. We cannot eat lichen. We can eat reindeer.
If you were a smart vegan you would have answered coconut :) Wild coconut is at least a reasonably energy-dense food.

Quote
Again, I'll post back in a year and two years and tell you who was right. People have been fruitarians for years... whereas very high protein diets are normally at least curtailed due to bone loss, acid-imbalance, heart problems, death etc.

Wait, you do know about the Inuit don't you? They don't exactly keel over and die at 10, they live longer and healthier lives than most Americans on their native diet.


Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2009, 08:40:10 am »
@SuperInfinity:
You're merely spouting propaganda and myth, to which you're entitled...

Please provide me with some substantial arguments on the matter of fat-soluble vitamins and the cobalamins...

I'm interested to understand the application of your all-encompassing fruitarianism (if you can convince me, I may join you).

Also, what about cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) at northern latitudes in winter - where are you obtaining that from, if not from UVB rays?! I'm afraid that around these parts, the sun rarely has his hat on...Let me guess, northern latitudes are not the true ecological niche of the average fruitarian...So how're you going to go on in Ireland then?!

Raw veganism is based on nonsense and people like Herbert Shelton (natural hygienist) died prematurely on account of inadequate nutrition.

How long will your spinal column last if you can't even keep your teeth?!

Maybe you'll even make it to breatharianism once you've discovered how to nourish your astral body?!

So you reckon that the domesticated (hybrid) banana bears some semblance to the original, wild banana...The gene pool of those things (just one example) would be nowhere near diverse enough to survive in the wild, outside of the farmer's fence. Do you actually know anything about your only/main source of energy/nutrients?

I pity your approach and your lack of argumentative substance...I invite you to counter my arguments, please...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 08:52:58 am by MrBBQ »
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Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2009, 09:20:22 am »
I ain't talkin bout no zoo chimps:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110482604/abstract
Dental pathologies in ten free-ranging chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania

The dental remains of ten adult chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania, were examined for enamel attrition, caries, abscesses, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Age was the underlying factor in the development of dental pathology, in that enamel wear was present to some extent in all ten but was uniformly severe only in the three for whom estimated age at death was 39-43 years. In turn, enamel wear appears to have been the direct cause of abscess development, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Periodontal disease was commonly expressed as alveolar resorption, particularly around the premolars and molars. This involvement was variable in all except the two youngest. Some interesting wear patterns were evident in the form of deep grooves in the upper incisors and dramatic notching of the lower canines. These patterns, and enamel attrition in general, were attributed to normal mastication and to various stripping activities. Only one carious lesion was observed, in a male with an estimated age of 26 years. An accurate assessment of the actual prevalence of caries was obscured by enamel wear and tooth loss in the older individuals.

Well maybe I should have mentioned this earlier, but that's a sort of gradual wear and tear that happens with a lot of things with age. I don't care how good your diet is, by the time you're 45 you won't play soccer as well as when you were 25. My dad is about 80 now and his top teeth are fully replaced... his bottom teeth are there but are kind of all worn away. He never feels pain there. He even says that his gums have hardened in such a way that they become almost like teeth on bottom. They're almost as good now. He was never a fruitarian or paleo person or did anything like that, he just eats a standard diet.

Yes this teeth thing is a big issue for me and it always was and will be as I've loved fruit and at it copiously for many years now. I used to keep off grapefruit and tomatoes but am back on them now... I admit I'm scared of my mind at the thought of going back to the dentist.

Reindeer can eat lichen. We cannot eat lichen. We can eat reindeer.
If you were a smart vegan you would have answered coconut :) Wild coconut is at least a reasonably energy-dense food.

??? I love coconut and the stuff you buy in the shops isn't very energy dense. 
 
Wait, you do know about the Inuit don't you? They don't exactly keel over and die at 10, they live longer and healthier lives than most Americans on their native diet.

Well if the standard American diet is what you're comparing them to then I give you that one. Native people couldn't eat worse than that if they TRIED because they don't have the materials. It's Inuit this and Inuit that with you (claiming to be) paleo folks... last I heard Inuit and Eskimos have all sorts of mental problems and health problems and not such long lives at all (maybe longer than the average American, BIG WOOP!)... this despite probably being much more adapted than us for that diet.

Please provide me with some substantial arguments on the matter of fat-soluble vitamins and the cobalamins...

Cobalamins are available aplenty in wild fruit, not so much in our fruit. Fat-soluble vitamins or their precursors are available in sufficient quantaties. The problem with taking people on the standard american diet, giving them fish oils and watching their health improve, is because the body was extremely bad to begin with... almost ANYTHING you gave them that was naturally would improve it. Don't similar studies also prove the "wonders" of the whole grain....? I've sent away for a big load of vitamins with fish oils etc. included. In fact my main worry is about the other things in the vitamins pills and if I should be taking them like that!!!!
 
I'm interested to understand the application of your all-encompassing fruitarianism (if you can convince me, I may join you).

Good, it's nice to see you're at least trying to keep an open mind... despite the first line of your post.

Also, what about cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) at northern latitudes in winter - where are you obtaining that from, if not from UVB rays?! I'm afraid that around these parts, the sun rarely has his hat on...Let me guess, northern latitudes are not the true ecological niche of the average fruitarian...So how're you going to go on in Ireland then?!

Vitamin D deficiency is a non-issue as regards how we're evolved, it's the OPPOSITE if anything... the vitamin D in food mightn't contain everything. The sun shines more than enough in summer alone for us to get all our vitamin D. Ireland also can get it from sun in Spring and Autumn, possibly even Winter a little bit. Our body can store it for many months. We'd be NUDE in the SUN nearly day primevally. Nowadays I take a vitamin tablet and hope for the best (I mean that there isn't a vitamin d14 that we haven't discovered yet that you get only from the sun or something).

Raw veganism is based on nonsense and people like Herbert Shelton (natural hygienist) died prematurely on account of inadequate nutrition.

Herbert Shelton was one man, come on.

How long will your spinal column last if you can't even keep your teeth?!

I have to completely contradict you on this point!!! It's the ACID and SUGAR that wears away the enamel on your teeth. However when fruits are inside in your body, the overall effect is overwhelmingly ALKALKINE!!!! This is flying directly in the face of high protein diets which create a VERY acidy environment inside in the body. NOONE disputes this or says that fruits will cause bad bones (apart from the vitamin d/calcium thing, but that goes for you guys and all people who don't take dairy as well, the more acidy the internal environment the worse it is).
 
Maybe you'll even make it to breatharianism once you've discovered how to nourish your astral body?!

What the heck? This is completely uncalled for. You profess that you might come over to my side and then you go around mocking it. Either you give snipes at it or you be polite, don't just jump from one to the other.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2009, 11:50:19 am »

 Well if the standard American diet is what you're comparing them to then I give you that one. Native people couldn't eat worse than that if they TRIED because they don't have the materials. It's Inuit this and Inuit that with you (claiming to be) paleo folks... last I heard Inuit and Eskimos have all sorts of mental problems and health problems and not such long lives at all (maybe longer than the average American, BIG WOOP!)... this despite probably being much more adapted than us for that diet.


I would suggest you re-read the chapter on the Inuit in Dr. Price's book.  He mentions several times Dr. Romig, who lived around and doctored the the Inuit for over 36 years.  Here is what Dr. Romig said:

" Among the many items of information of great interest furnished by Dr. Romig were facts that fitted well into the modern picture of association of modern degenerative processes with modernization. He stated that in his thirty-six years of contact with these people he had never seen a case of malignant disease [cancer-note added] among the truly primitive Eskimos and Indians, although it frequently occurs when they become modernized. He found similarly that the acute surgical problems requiring operation on internal organs such as the gall bladder, kidney, stomach, and appendix do not tend to occur among the primitive, but are very common problems among the modernized Eskimos and Indians. Growing out of his experience, in which he had seen large numbers of the modernized Eskimos and Indians attacked with tuberculosis, which tended to be progressive and ultimately fatal as long as the patients stayed under modernized living conditions, he now sends them back when possible to primitive conditions and to a primitive diet, under which the death rate is very much lower than under modernized conditions. Indeed, he reported that a great majority of the afflicted recover under the primitive type of living and nutrition."

Here is a second passage, this time about childbirth among the Inuit:

"One of the outstanding changes which I have found takes place in the primitive races at their point of contact with our modern civilization is a decrease in the ease and efficiency of the birth process. When I visited the Six Nation Reservation at Brantford, Ontario, I was told by the physician in charge that a change of this kind had occurred during the period of his administration, which had covered twenty-eight years and that the hospital was now used largely to care for young Indian women during abnormal childbirth (Chapter 6).

    A similar impressive comment was made to me by Dr. Romig, the superintendent of the government hospital for Eskimos and Indians at Anchorage, Alaska. He stated that in his thirty-six years among the Eskimos, he had never been able to arrive in time to see a normal birth by a primitive Eskimo woman. But conditions have changed materially with the new generation of Eskimo girls, born after their parents began to use foods of modern civilization. Many of them are carried to his hospital after they had been in labour for several days. One Eskimo woman who had married twice, her last husband being a white man, reported to Dr. Romig and myself that she had given birth to twentysix children and that several of them had been born during the night and that she had not bothered to waken her husband, but had introduced him to the new baby in the morning."


Here is one about the rate of cavities:

"At Kokamute, on the Bering Sea at the mouth of the Kuskokwim River, a large band of very primitive Eskimos was studied. They had come from the vicinity of Nelson Island, a district which has had exceedingly little contact with modern civilization. In this group twenty-eight individuals with 820 teeth showed only one tooth, or 0.1 per cent, that had ever been attacked by dental caries."

Their teeth are about as good as the teeth of the Masai.

Do I need to bring up the Masai and the Kikuyu here?  You are mysteriously silent about that on the thread where I brought it up.  Maybe you didn't notice my post.  You need to go read it. 






 

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