Author Topic: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".  (Read 35971 times)

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Offline SuperInfinity

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1. Australopithecus ate up to 90%+ fruit just like all the other Great Apes. Only about 1 or 2% of even the chimps' diet comes directly from captured meat.

2. There is no reason that within a couple of 100,000 years man magically evolved to being 40% carnivorous EVERY SINGLE DAY. 

3. Man's teeth are very little adapted for omnivorism. The fossil record shows man ate a huge amount of fruit, vegetables of insects, eggs, fish, etc. little meat.

4. Wild fruit are almost the exact same as store fruit, some have MORE sugar. I'm not attracted to sweeter fruit, noone is. Sweetness has little to do with how much one enjoys fruit.

5. If you do well on a high protein diet and not a high fruit one, it's probably because you have metabolic syndrome from years of insulin and adrenal abuse. I feel really, really sorry for you.
 
6. I don't like red meat (except sausages I'll admit but I don't eat them anymore). I would refuse ham growing up (and no, not from animal welfareor health concerns at all) even though it was there nearly every day  and my main source of meat, I HATED it and still do. I do like chicken... but rarely have it. For protein I normally have fish and eggs.

7. Fruit is the food of choice for all primates. Man only resorted to vegetables and meat when he ran out of fruit, it's not OPTIMAL. I mean... sure I guess he did EAT it sometimes when he was starving as  Neanderthal man was said to have done almost 100% when he was starving in the cold weather (that hominid that is now EXTINCT)... I'm sure he would also have eaten faeces and flowers if he got desperate enough...

NB: I DO NOT WISH TO STOP YOU FROM CHOOSING YOUR OWN DIET BUT PLEASE DO NOT MISINFORM PEOPLE AS TO HOW PALEO MAN  ATE!

MANY BELIEVE PALEO MAN WAS MAINLY A FRUGIVORE, FROM CHARLES DARWIN ONWARDS.

Read: Man The Hunted. It explains all the common fallacies in books such as Man The Hunter.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:56:22 am by SuperInfinity »

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 10:07:23 am »
Nice first post SuperInfinity.

This should spice things up.

I came to raw paleo from vegan -> fruitarian -> wai diet -> raw paleo

But my raw animal food intake has been increasing.

I will be experimenting with all raw beef next week.

Let's see.

What I do know is that there are eskimos who are almost completely carnivorous but there are no tribes that are almost completely vegan / fruitarian.
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Offline yon yonson

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2009, 10:58:00 am »
uh, try eating that way in the wild. i guarantee you won't survive. period.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2009, 11:11:22 am »
Technically speaking, in a tropical country like the Philippines, there should be tons of fruits and plant matter.  But I've never known a tribe to not eat meat.  Meat is such a wanted thing.  When I'm in a pot luck gathering, whoever opens the meats is sure to have his offering finished off first.  People gravitate towards meat as a preferred food.

I think the mistake is cooking meat.

Anyway, my current theory being on raw omnivore is that I should continuously monitor my plant / animal ratios to suite my current health status / age.  Nothing is set in stone.

My kids are on a cure tooth decay program so I'm deliberately increasing their raw animal food intake.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 11:41:42 am »
Just remember to say goodbye to your teeth on a mostly-fruit diet.  They almost certainly won't last. 

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 12:24:52 pm »
Just remember to say goodbye to your teeth on a mostly-fruit diet.  They almost certainly won't last. 

At first I tried it without brushing my teeth.... it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit).

I think the reason they get like that is because they're already malformed and fragile in nearly all of us from early childhood. In the (now free) 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration it's shown really well how those people didn't brush at all and yet have teeth far better than we did. Yes I realise they had meat, fish, natural, organic cow's milk etc... but the point is that teeth degeneration is based on civilization a lot more than any particular diet.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 12:45:08 pm »
Have you seen www.curetoothdecay.com ?

Rami Nagel just shared what worked and his approach is mostly high fat, high nutrient primal diet.  And testimonials are easier to come by.

In my raw vegan and raw fruitarian days I never once came across a cure tooth decay protocol.

My old teacher barefootherbalistmh.com was  promoting frutiarianism.  Problem was he had zero teeth, all his teeth were already pulled out when he learned about health so he didn't have any teeth to lose on his fruitarian diet.  But he has a special concoction called longevity spices he makes fresh from various fruits, herbs and nuts in his area.  Maybe if I had those longevity spices I would have succeeded with my raw vegan and raw fruitarian days.

I think Skinny Devil is on the less meat diet.  And it works for him.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 03:47:01 pm »
Just thought I'd mention that there are tribes who are vegetarian. I remember 1 study done on a persian tribe which was vegetarian(actually vegan, I think?) And then there are communities like the Jainites in India etc.

Also, chimp's diet is routinely quoted as consisting of c.3% meat. 7% is routinely quoted as consisting of animal food(ie meat and insects combined).
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Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 08:55:41 pm »
2. There is no reason that within a couple of 100,000 years man magically evolved to being 40% carnivorous EVERY SINGLE DAY. 

There is not a single "raw paleo" diet. Some folks here eat meat every day. Some eat only meat. Some tend to eat mostly fruits & veggies and splurge on meat. There are many other variations.

That you dislike red meat does not mean others dislike red meat.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 09:22:44 pm »
SuperInfinity recently tried this on the paleofood list, and was blown out of the water/shot down in flames.
Search the archive for the name Padraig Hogan if you wish.
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/paleofood.html

Offline wodgina

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 09:56:45 pm »
 Some who likes sausage  but abstains?

Check out my recent post superinfinity

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/this-is-cool-you-reckon-your-raw-paleo/msg13718/?topicseen#msg13718
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Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 10:50:42 pm »
SuperInfinity recently tried this on the paleofood list, and was blown out of the water/shot down in flames.
Search the archive for the name Padraig Hogan if you wish.
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/paleofood.html

You must be joking. I gave my reasons there as I did here, just because they chose to ignore them all and say: "you're wrong and the fossil record is wrong and the cutting-edge of paleoanthropology from the 1960s allegedly agrees with me, now try and come up with some credible arguments apart from the entire world of modern respected paleoanthropology."

I sense great passion and sensitivity on your part from the bolded point. I'm not trying to wean you off a diet with a very large percentage of meat, just saying it's extremely rare that paleo man would have ate such a huge percentage.

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 10:53:27 pm »
Some who likes sausage  but abstains?

Check out my recent post superinfinity

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/this-is-cool-you-reckon-your-raw-paleo/msg13718/?topicseen#msg13718


Last time I checked sausages don't occur in nature, and I believe red meat can give you cancer.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 11:22:20 pm »
I think its fine SuperInfinity brought up this topic.  I came from vegan and fruitarian teachings and I understand where he's coming from.

Maybe this is why I'll soon be experimenting with zero carb to find out for myself.  Experiments are exciting.
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 12:01:41 am »
I sense great passion and sensitivity on your part from the bolded point. I'm not trying to wean you off a diet with a very large percentage of meat, just saying it's extremely rare that paleo man would have ate such a huge percentage.

What would have been eaten?

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 12:40:32 am »
You must be joking.
 I'm not trying to wean you off a diet with a very large percentage of meat, just saying it's extremely rare that paleo man would have ate such a huge percentage.

No joke, and I eat only 20% meat. The rest is tallow.

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 03:17:19 am »
What would have been eaten?

He was mostly frugivoral.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 06:36:52 am »
He was mostly frugivoral.

Outside of the tropics, and there was plenty of paleo time when sizeable human population were outside of the tropics, I don't believe that is possible to survive on. I'm not even sure it's possible in the tropics, I was at an island in the Caribbean once and only saw coconut trees and banana trees and the bananas were small and green and even they weren't wild but still not very appetizing.

I agree that it appears humans are closer to something like a bonobo, which eats lots of plants, but all of the other evidence I've seen points to humans eating mostly meat for a pretty long time.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 06:49:51 am »
At first I tried it without brushing my teeth.... it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit).

I think the reason they get like that is because they're already malformed and fragile in nearly all of us from early childhood. In the (now free) 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration it's shown really well how those people didn't brush at all and yet have teeth far better than we did. Yes I realise they had meat, fish, natural, organic cow's milk etc... but the point is that teeth degeneration is based on civilization a lot more than any particular diet.

Come on, man, you're talking to a forum full of people who have spent years

1.  recovering from tooth damage from fruit-heavy diets

2.  Reading forums like this one, where people are complaining about tooth damage from fruit-heavy diets

You cannot convince us of this.  It's like convincing Captain Cook that Hawaiians aren't cannibals.  LOL

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 11:08:09 am »
At first I tried it without brushing my teeth.... it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit).

I think the reason they get like that is because they're already malformed and fragile in nearly all of us from early childhood.
Good heavens Padraig! Your dentist is right (which is rare for dentists). Don't give up and sacrifice your teeth to fruitarianism without first at least trying a very low carb Paleo diet.

Normally I don't try to convince vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians (unless they happen to raise some issues that I'd like to crystallize my own thoughts on, which you did initially before you went way off into la-la-land ;-) ), because they often have religious/philosophical/political reasons for choosing their diet, instead of scientific/health reasons and are therefore impervious to reason and logic, and because vegheads are my best allies--they sacrifice their health so that I can eat meats more cheaply. However, you're an Irishman and possibly a relative, based on your last name, so I'll send you at least one more lifeline. Given that you eat some fish, I figure you might possibly listen to some reason.

My teeth were maloccluded from birth and beginning in my late teens to early twenties were highly prone to placque and I developed gum disease. Going standard Paleo (I continued to eat Paleo-style carbs from fruits, nuts, all-natural juices and nut milks--Ray Audette and Loren Cordain actually had discouraged consumption of fruit juices and dried fruits, but I thought they were overly strict about that and I was under lots of pressure from relatives to continue eating significant amounts of carbs) helped, but I continued to have some gum problems despite brushing and flossing multiple times a day and getting professional cleanings every three months.

After I started the transition toward VLC-Paleo, I came across some posts in another forum by Lex Rooker and another poster named "DelFuego" while looking for tips on making pemmican that were quite encouraging and motivated me to accelerate my change. Lex had reported that his loose teeth firmed up on a raw meat/fat/organs diet and within just a few weeks of going semi-raw, VLC-Paleo I experienced the same thing--and I was not even as strict as Lex (I was still eating some berries and greens and small amounts of low-sugar, all-natural juices). The more I've moved toward Lex's diet, the better my dental health, skin health and overall well being have been, so I recommend you read Lex's story before you trash Paleo diets that are high in flesh foods. You can find it here: http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/

After just a month or so of transitioning to a very-low-carb (VLC), high meat/fat Paleo diet, including a significant amount of raw meats, I found I didn't need to brush and floss as much and no longer needed my prescription fluoride rinse. My hygienist was impressed with the improvement in my teeth and gums and asked if I'd been brushing and flossing more. I said no, I cut back on sweet drinks like fruit juices (I didn't tell her that I was also eating lots of meat and fat, including raw, had cut out nightshades and winter squashes completely, was actually brushing and flossing less, not more, and had stopped using my Px fluoride). She was puzzled and silent, but seemed to just barely accept that such remarkable results might be possible from that (she would have been more perplexed if I told her the whole truth :-) ).

If you research Irish ancestry you'll learn that the Irish are descended from hunter-gatherers. Not fruitarians, hunter-gatherers. Embrace your heritage and your health will improve! Reject it, and you'll pay a price.

Quote
In the (now free) 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration it's shown really well how those people didn't brush at all and yet have teeth far better than we did. Yes I realise they had meat, fish, natural, organic cow's milk etc... but the point is that teeth degeneration is based on civilization a lot more than any particular diet.
Think about it. Why were none of the people that Price studied fruitarian? If it's such a great diet, why did Price find so many peoples who were not fruitarian and healthy, whereas he found no fruitarian tribes?

You still haven't explained where you got the idea that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. The book you mentioned, Man the Hunted, doesn't make that argument, nor did Darwin, and frugivorous apes are not humans, so where did you hear this? Surely you didn't base it on a quote or two from Darwin? Darwin must not have believed strongly in his flippant comments about a frugivorous diet, because during his travels to document his theory of evolution through natural selection, he ate an owl, armadillos, agoutis (the rodents were "best meat I ever tasted," he said), a puma, an ostrich-like bird called a Rhea, iguanas and giant tortoises. He liked giant tortoises so much "he loaded up 48 of them aboard the Beagle, to be eaten on the journey back!" (Source: http://www.neatorama.com/2008/12/04/10-fun-facts-about-charles-darwin/)

Also, if so many people think that Stone Agers were fruitarians, as you seem to think, then why are there no Paleo-fruitarian diet forums?

Plus, I know a vegetarian who ate lots of fruit and the enamel on her teeth deteriorated away, and a monk who lost all his teeth when his order required him to do frequent bread-and-water fasts, and another vegetarian who couldn't get pregnant until she started eating some meat, and I've read the accounts of numerous ex-vegetarians and ex-vegans who have done better on low-carb, flesh-heavy diets.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 11:31:34 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Raw Rob

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 12:44:44 pm »
SuperInfinity,

I came down with Ulcerative Colitis in February of 2008. Not to get too graphic but it basically entails painful bleeding into the toilet about thirty times a day. I don't know if that falls under your "metabolic syndrome" but it's definitely some kind of syndrome and it sucks.

The first diet that was recommended was fruitarian. I tried it for a couple of months and got exponentially worse. I don't want to see another banana ever again, seriously.

I tried many other diets and I eventually found out that the more raw red meat and less carbs I ate, the better I got.

I now eat only raw red meat, fat, and organs, (like Lex) and I am totally cured of this disease, which is considered "incurable" by the experts in the medical community. You know, the ones who told you that red meat might give you cancer. There are people out there with this disease having their colons taken out when they could be cured like me, through diet, our proper human diet.

Not only has this diet cured my Ulcerative Colitis, but it also cured a skin condition that I had since I was a child called Keratosis Pilaris. This disease was also deemed "incurable" by all those really smart dermatologists out there.

I also had a dental cavity in my front tooth that has remineralized right before my eyes.

Sometimes we have to let go of our dogmas. You have to open your mind to the fact that you may be very wrong. I've had to do this in many aspects of my life, especially after learning how wrong the mainstream nutritional advice is. 

We are told things by the certified "experts" in the communities of medicine, science, history, religion, etc. and many of these people are just repeaters. They are passed on false knowledge brought about by faulty scientific methods or research and they repeat it to the laity. It is not to be questioned. There is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Well, now I'm starting to rant so I'll just leave it at that.



 

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 02:16:32 pm »
I also had a dental cavity in my front tooth that has remineralized right before my eyes.

Cavity remineralization... my dream for my kids.
Maybe my experimentation with just raw beef will drive them to the cure tooth decay way.
Can you describe more about your cure tooth decay experience?
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 02:43:40 pm »
No joke, and I eat only 20% meat. The rest is tallow.

why do you eat only 20% meat ?
what amount of meat and fat do you eat ?

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 05:51:39 pm »
My tooth remineralised, really noticed quick healing on zero carb.
 I also had IBS for 10 years (imagine 10 years of constipation/bleeding/bloating) supposedly incurable. I found eating junk food and drinking beer was better than eating fruit (prunes)
I'm not anti fruit just it's not a human staple.

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 09:17:56 pm »
why do you eat only 20% meat ?
what amount of meat and fat do you eat ?


I have trouble actually doing this, partly because I have to eat yucky ungrassfed beef fat, until I get some help trans-shipping Slanker's tallow to Canada.
Here are the contents of two stickies that I've pasted on my desktop; they are from the paleofood list.

> The key -- and very few well-informed, well-meaning low carb paleo
> advocates get this -- is to LIMIT PROTEIN INTAKE to approximately 100g
> per day, making up the balance in quality fats.  For those starting out,
> it can be hard to do for the first few days.  But once over that hump,
> it becomes almost instinctive.

Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Jim Swayze

so, for me, 1.45g±0.25/kg=~125g protein, plus 223g tallow=348g pemmican. Maximum, to avoid gluconeogenesis and create optimum therapeutic
> window for human metabolism

--------------------------------

Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio

Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11


1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and 
Physical Performance":

"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance 
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum 
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein 
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and 
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg 
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate 
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with 
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total 
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent 
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When 
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if 
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.

The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg 
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of 
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as 
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given 
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max 
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5 
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.

At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the 
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient 
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher 
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative 
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a 
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition, 
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise 
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean 
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to 
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of 
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and 
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among 
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."


2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low 
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start 
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.   
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your 
weight.  There are a few more calculations involved for the 
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.

Here's a quote from the book:

"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you 
can eat it in unlimited quantities.  When you eat more protein than 
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is 
largely converted  into glucose and burned as fuel.  It turns you 
into a sugar maker and sugar burner!  This is not desirable or healthy."

Jim Swayze

 

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