Author Topic: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".  (Read 35972 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2009, 10:32:57 pm »
I told you, I don't really trust the people behind the raw animal protein. I'm going to try to get raw tuna as I hear that's supposed to be an exceptionally safe one, but whether I'll stick to it or not I don't know. Idealistic as you may like it, sometimes you have to just do as 99%+ of other people are doing. I wouldn't dream of just pulling red meat off the aisle and eating it raw.

I get my tuna from the nearby fishport and the big wet market.  I've seen the big fishports in the provinces where they catch tuna.  I've seen the beef cattle running around free in our provincial hills. I even go to the slaughterhouse, followed the delivery truck to the market and seen the butchers handle the meat.

Same with the organic farmer where we buy our vegetables my family has visited his farm and we see that he is authentic and even teaches the other farmers how to do organic farming.  And we get into a network of fellow consumers who are serious about our food being safe.  So they share their own investigations.

You need to merely network with other people.  You are in this forum.  Ask your fellow countrymen where they get their organic food. 

Whether cooked or raw it makes no difference.  You must investigate.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2009, 02:29:31 am »
...I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. *shrugs* I don't know. You're the guys mainly saying that I am.  ...
I'm not sure what to make of this comment from someone who started a thread entitled "Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than 'zero carb'" and has repeatedly insulted anyone who eats lots of land-based meat. I don't mean any insult myself, but you've written some of the strangest and most puzzling threads I've ever seen.

If you are not a troll, then you seem to be in a state of flux re: diet--searching and experimenting, which gets you into trouble at these specialized forums of people who have mostly already decided what they want to eat. I noticed that there is one thread--the hot topics thread--that allows discussion of fruitarianism. You should probably post there if you want to talk more about it, so as to avoid getting banned, and maybe this thread should be moved there.

Can you clarify, either here or in Hot Topics, what exactly your diet is? It sounds like you are currently eating lots of fruits of any sort, with apples being your year-round favorite and blueberries eaten only in season. You also seem to eat peanuts, cooked fish, occasional eggs, coffee, tea and blueberry juice when blueberries are not in season, and probably water. Anything else?

You've talked about not liking land-based meats much and loving fruits, so taste actually seems to be the biggest driver of your diet.

BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 02:34:59 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline RawZi

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2009, 02:42:07 am »
    It's not the being raw that I don't trust (even though there are many fools out there that would think like that), it's the people behind it. The people who give the animals chemicals etc. You're putting your trust in them. I personally need to find out lots more about pesticides etc. in my life (and it seems really hard to really get into this and get this sort of information, textbooks on pesticides go for over $100 on Amazon and might end up being next to useless)... but at least I'm falling in with the crowd and am not exposed to animal medications/hormones. It's a bit like drinking milk!!! Going with the crowd sometimes can actually be a good idea. Let's remember: l love fruit so much I want to eat it all the time... I'm just talking about my comparatively small about of animal protein per week.

    The being raw is what makes my body strong enough to deal with the rest.  I don't give my trust lightly anymore.  Get to know which kind of people you can trust in your area.  I'm sure there are some good groups.  Textbooks could be useless, you're right there.  Learn to pay attention to your body, however subtly it speaks.  I'm experimenting as I type this to you.  I have milk here from grass grazed animals, I played with them, I milked them, they actually wanted to be milked!  I didn't chill the milk, I kefired it with biodynamic raisins, I hope it doesn't get me drunk!  We'll see.

    Eggs have all of the amino acids we need and in the right quantaties. They also have choline, lecithin(?)... I'm no expert, but I think they're a pretty good source of meat as well. I scramble them just a little bit... partly for the taste and partly because again, neither the agriculture sector or government health regulator give a rat's ass about people who take them raw... they'd likely just say "we told you so". Otherwise I would absolutely take my fish raw and probably eggs as well depending on how they taste.

    The people who tell us the "perfect" amino acid profile for protein in the human diet are the egg industry.  They do not digest like raw meat.  I eat my eggs the rare times I now eat them whole (white and yolk) and raw as do I my fish on the rare occasions I eat it.  I don't know who "they" are and I'm glad.

    Wrongham et al may be stupid, but I'll bet you that if you ate a raw + lightly cooked/steamed paleo diet, that you may be worse off... you may be a fatter... you may not enjoy your food as much.... but you would still be doing extremely well compared to people who take dairy, bread, cake, alcohol etc. all the time who are in another league entirely. 

    I would have and never will ever venture to live on a bread, cake and alcohol diet.  Lightly steamed?  Paleo people steamed food?  Anyway, I couldn't live on that.  Maybe red meat animal's bone broth, but the rest of the altered animal foods so far in my life make me sick when the first bite goes down my throat.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #78 on: July 13, 2009, 02:59:05 am »
Thanks for that post Goodsamaritan.

I'm not sure what to make of this comment from someone who started a thread entitled "Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than 'zero carb'" and has repeatedly insulted anyone who eats lots of land-based meat. I don't mean any insult myself, but you've written some of the strangest and most puzzling threads I've ever seen.

Veganism has almost nothing to do with healthy eating. As I have repeatedly stated it's that hateful site beyondveg.com that calls anyone with over 75% or something like of their diet fruit a fruitarian.
 
If you are not a troll, then you seem to be in a state of flux re: diet--searching and experimenting, which gets you into trouble at these specialized forums of people who have mostly already decided what they want to eat. I noticed that there is one thread--the hot topics thread--that allows discussion of fruitarianism. You should probably post there if you want to talk more about it, so as to avoid getting banned, and maybe this thread should be moved there.

This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread.  l)

Can you clarify, either here or in Hot Topics, what exactly your diet is? It sounds like you are currently eating lots of fruits of any sort, with apples being your year-round favorite and blueberries eaten only in season. You also seem to eat peanuts, cooked fish, occasional eggs, coffee, tea and blueberry juice when blueberries are not in season, and probably water. Anything else?

I'm going to freeze blueberries this year. Apart from fruit and salads, almost nothing else right now. Since the beginning of the year I've taken lots of things... For the past three or so months, I've stuck 99% to this. But fruit has always been a pretty big fraction of my diet for the past few years, bread/biscuits/milk might have made up the most calories before that, or possibly brief "bad" periods less than a year ago such as being under stress, time-constrained etc... hey, I'm not holding myself up as a shining example. Just that I really believe it's right for *me* and in my own person beliefs... it would be what Australopithecus and early-to-middle paleo man ate.

You've talked about not liking land-based meats much and loving fruits, so taste actually seems to be the biggest driver of your diet.

That's true, and is why I'll never give up fruit.

BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.

Yes I'm well-acquainted with Wrong ham's cooking theory and recent book.

    I would have and never will ever venture to live on a bread, cake and alcohol diet.  Lightly steamed?  Paleo people steamed food?  Anyway, I couldn't live on that.  Maybe red meat animal's bone broth, but the rest of the altered animal foods so far in my life make me sick when the first bite goes down my throat.
[/quote]

According to Wrongham they did cook. Steaming is just like cooking.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #79 on: July 13, 2009, 03:30:41 am »
"This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread."

You do have posts promoting fruitarianism in the "General discussion" board, on the "Blood Type" diet thread. 

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2009, 05:32:47 am »
Thanks for that post Goodsamaritan.
Veganism has almost nothing to do with healthy eating. As I have repeatedly stated it's that hateful site beyondveg.com that calls anyone with over 75% or something like of their diet fruit a fruitarian.
I see, you were trashing both views and offering your own alternative, not being a troll. You realize, however, that by posting that wording in a Paleo forum you gave the impression you were promoting fruitarianism, right? Was that just to stir things up and get people's interest (if so it worked  ;) )?
 
Quote
This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread.  l)
Right you are, this is in hot topics. -[ I'm new to this forum myself, so either I didn't realize that popular topics apparently automatically or manually get moved to that Hot Topic category or I noticed one of your other threads. I'm old school Internet, so to me this is a thread and the whole forum is like what we used to call a "bulletin board." Ha, ha, I'm dating myself.

Quote
I'm going to freeze blueberries this year. Apart from fruit and salads, almost nothing else right now.
K, what's in your salads?

Quote
Just that I really believe it's right for *me* and in my own person beliefs... it would be what Australopithecus and early-to-middle paleo man ate.
Interesting. Was it Man the Hunted that caused you to focus on Australopithecus and the early Paleolithic, or Origin of Species, or what? Most scientists and doctors in Paleo nutrition focus on the last 10,000 - 100,000 years of the Paleolithic, because that's what we know best, but I agree that the earlier periods have relevance also. There will be many debates over what time frames to give most credence to, which is part of the reason most people don't talk about more than 10-20,000 years ago, to avoid that debate.

Quote
That's true, and is why I'll never give up fruit.
Because taste is a major driver for you, it also means you'll probably never be fully accepted by the vegans/vegetarians/fruitarians, since they tend to be PETA-type-philosophy-based and very strict, which you probably know already. Taste is not very PC.  ;)

Quote
Yes I'm well-acquainted with Wrong ham's cooking theory and recent book.
Heh, it's refreshingly nice to find a plant-based dieter who agrees that Wrangham is wrong, given that Wrangham's purpose seems to have been to promote politically-correct plant-eating, feminism and neotenized/effeminate conceptions of manhood.

According to Wrongham they did cook. Steaming is just like cooking.
Uh oh, big mistake to quote Wrongham.  :o  I learned that one the hard way--even though I tried to explain that I don't agree with him.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2009, 05:44:51 am »
BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.

I had a feeling that I could do better, so typed "epithet definition" into scroogle, and it's right.

So Wrongham is a good epithet for Richard Wrangham. IMHO   ;)

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2009, 07:44:25 am »
K, what's in your salads?

Leafy greens, mainly different types of lettuce. You can buy lots of them in any supermarket here... don't tell me they don't sell ready-washed salads in the US...  :o

Interesting. Was it Man the Hunted that caused you to focus on Australopithecus and the early Paleolithic, or Origin of Species, or what? Most scientists and doctors in Paleo nutrition focus on the last 10,000 - 100,000 years of the Paleolithic, because that's what we know best, but I agree that the earlier periods have relevance also. There will be many debates over what time frames to give most credence to, which is part of the reason most people don't talk about more than 10-20,000 years ago, to avoid that debate.

It was all types of primate and paleoanthropic (stupid firefox is telling me that's spelt wrong and won't offer proper alternatives, philanthropist my ass) literature. I ordered the lastest edition (something like June 2009) of The Human Career, a highly revered textbook that is like the Grey's Anatomy of paleoanthropology.

Because taste is a major driver for you, it also means you'll probably never be fully accepted by the vegans/vegetarians/fruitarians, since they tend to be PETA-type-philosophy-based and very strict, which you probably know already. Taste is not very PC.  ;)

What is this, PaleoPhil being highly ignorant and wrong Day or something? All of the fruitarian sites I have EVER seen and the message board and raw food boards in general ALL talk about how much they love fruit and the taste of it. I personally have little allegiance to animals, even though I do view it as a pro that I'm not eating them when it comes down to it they don't enter into part of the decision.
 
Heh, it's refreshingly nice to find a plant-based dieter who agrees that Wrangham is wrong, given that Wrangham's purpose seems to have been to promote politically-correct plant-eating, feminism and neotenized/effeminate conceptions of manhood.
Uh oh, big mistake to quote Wrongham.  :o  I learned that one the hard way--even though I tried to explain that I don't agree with him.

I don't really like Wrongham for a few reasons, you shouldn't assume things about people. Just because a very high percentage of my diet is fruit doesn't mean I'm some tree-hugging, self-chaining, animal welfare activist!!! ;D :P ;)  (although incidentally I actually do happen to be the last one in that I do want mandatory social welfare for the Orangutans paid for by the people that rip up their homes and lives and otherwise starve them to death...) Seriously consider donating to these guys, you say I'm your relative, THEY'RE your relatives as well. They're starving to death and becoming extinct. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 07:53:30 am by SuperInfinity »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2009, 07:32:29 pm »
Leafy greens, mainly different types of lettuce. You can buy lots of them in any supermarket here... don't tell me they don't sell ready-washed salads in the US...  :o
Yes, that's true. I normally eat them myself, but they'll go on the prohibited list soon when I'm done testing your semi-fruitarian advice and I begin my Lex Rooker experiment. LOL!

Quote
I ordered the lastest edition (something like June 2009) of The Human Career, a highly revered textbook that is like the Grey's Anatomy of paleoanthropology.
Looks good; added it to my wish list, thanks.

If you like that, then I recommend the writings of the following Anthropologists and Evolutionary Biologists on natural human diet and lifestyle:

> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and  Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Jeanne Sept, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution

If I missed any good ones, I hope someone will let me know.

Quote
What is this, PaleoPhil being highly ignorant and wrong Day or something? All of the fruitarian sites I have EVER seen and the message board and raw food boards in general ALL talk about how much they love fruit and the taste of it.
More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?

Quote
...I do want mandatory social welfare for the Orangutans paid for by the people that rip up their homes and lives and otherwise starve them to death...) Seriously consider donating to these guys, you say I'm your relative, THEY'RE your relatives as well. They're starving to death and becoming extinct. 
And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.

Just because I eat animals doesn't mean I don't respect them, quite the contrary. That may sound strange to a moderner, but to a hunter-gatherer (like the Inuit, Lakota, etc.) and even to some traditional pastoralists it would make perfect sense. The propagandists among plant-only-eaters tend to tell lies about meat eaters and hunter gatherers and lump us all together into extreme charicatures based on the most disrespectful and unethical of modern meat eaters. They may have told you some of these lies. Frequently, the animals HGs eat most often are the most sacred, and the first part of the animal they eat tends to be the most sacred part. They are regarded as cousins or brothers or spirit-beings, rather than as mere food. Eating sacred animals brings health and spiritual euphoria to the eater, which confirms that it is part of the design of Nature/Creator. Perhaps you experience this when you eat wild fish. It is seen as a way of continuing the life of that prey animal, rather than bringing it to a final end.

Think about it, all animals die. If they are not eaten then their corpses rot. Is rotting in the sun really so much better than being eaten by a fellow creature and thus giving life to another? Mother Nature/Gaia/Creator has designed it so that prey are eaten by predators and thus give life out of their deaths. Who are we to short-circuit that loop by attempting to remove ourselves from it? Do we really wish to place ourselves above the gods, to make gods of ourselves?

For myself, I hope my body receives a natural burial so that I may be eaten by animals or worms and other tiny creatures, so that my body and perhaps spirit may give life to them. I like what the Tibetans do, for instance. If not that, then cremated instead of being pumped full of toxic chemicals in a vain attempt to preserve my corpse, and thus turned into a bringer of suffering and death to living things.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline RawZi

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2009, 11:35:21 pm »
> If I missed any good ones, I hope someone will let me know.
More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?
And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.

    http://fabulousforagers.ning.com/forum/topics/fanatical-vegan

    In some of my experience, quite a number of raw vegans in forum give the definite impression that if you "still" eat cooked meat, that there's hope for you yet, and you just didn't know, but they will teach you.  If you eat raw meat, then you are just plain going to "h" "e" dbl hockey sticks and you are fair game for them to do whatever they can to you; because if not they think you will bludgeon them, eat they're baby brother, etc.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline SuperInfinity

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2009, 05:51:31 am »
Yes, that's true. I normally eat them myself, but they'll go on the prohibited list soon when I'm done testing your semi-fruitarian advice and I begin my Lex Rooker experiment. LOL!



Why oh why does everyone want to be such a fanatic online?! It's fine to do what you feel/what you feel is good for your health. However, going totally over the edge and being 100% Wai and then 100% animal protein and then 90% fat and taking NOTHING ELSE despite ALL THE EVIDENCE because you're trying to be "hardcore" and prove something and your diet is so miraculous it will work.... could be extremely damaging. I think you appeared almost disappointed at my weekend indulgences, I half-suspect you'd prefer if I was a total fruitarian... those crazy spiritual fruitarians who'll eventually go back to a higher protein diet, the higher the better for them..... the fact is I'm not and they don't, and my diet is a lot safer and more moderate than many/most/all here....

Looks good; added it to my wish list, thanks.

It came today and it's extremely good from what I've seen so far.
If you like that, then I recommend the writings of the following Anthropologists and Evolutionary Biologists on natural human diet and lifestyle:

> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and  Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Jeanne Sept, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution

Okay thanks, I'll save that list.

More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?

I've tried to mention it casually if I did do it, I've even said it on that rawfoodsupport vegan board!!! I made a post or two on iheartfruit.com and I admit I felt a bit odd saying something about eating fish there. But when you think about it.... we're actually also related to BANANAS, we share 50% of our DNA with them in fact! Pickers don't leave the bananas drop down, they pick them off before they fall, hence eating your relatives. *shrugs* And eating bacteria... vitamin b12 which you will die without is much worse because they're far more related!!!! Eggs, fish aren't so bad.

And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.

I've donated to this one, I like them because they appear to be a good society, you can volunteer YOURSELF to do work (which would be really cool)... and you can donate how much you want. You can also become a member of the society for keeping you updated on it etc.

http://www.orangutans-sos.org/

By all means have a look around and look up other websites as well that let you donate to the cause of the Orangutans/People of the Forest. They usually offer to send you out stuff to show that you're helping them so you can do that if you want.

Just because I eat animals doesn't mean I don't respect them, quite the contrary. That may sound strange to a moderner, but to a hunter-gatherer (like the Inuit, Lakota, etc.) and even to some traditional pastoralists it would make perfect sense. The propagandists among plant-only-eaters tend to tell lies about meat eaters and hunter gatherers and lump us all together into extreme charicatures based on the most disrespectful and unethical of modern meat eaters. They may have told you some of these lies. Frequently, the animals HGs eat most often are the most sacred, and the first part of the animal they eat tends to be the most sacred part. They are regarded as cousins or brothers or spirit-beings, rather than as mere food. Eating sacred animals brings health and spiritual euphoria to the eater, which confirms that it is part of the design of Nature/Creator. Perhaps you experience this when you eat wild fish. It is seen as a way of continuing the life of that prey animal, rather than bringing it to a final end.

And why don't you go out and live in the savanna in Africa then and that will also help continue human life by natural workings? I'm sure many hungry leopards and lions would be delighted to welcome you there and include you in the natural workings of the circle of life.  :)

Think about it, all animals die. If they are not eaten then their corpses rot. Is rotting in the sun really so much better than being eaten by a fellow creature and thus giving life to another? Mother Nature/Gaia/Creator has designed it so that prey are eaten by predators and thus give life out of their deaths. Who are we to short-circuit that loop by attempting to remove ourselves from it? Do we really wish to place ourselves above the gods, to make gods of ourselves?

Again, I do not believe we were designed to be predators. I could just as well say "Who am I to short-circuit the loop" the other way by eating something I never really wanted or would have caught.

For myself, I hope my body receives a natural burial so that I may be eaten by animals or worms and other tiny creatures, so that my body and perhaps spirit may give life to them. I like what the Tibetans do, for instance. If not that, then cremated instead of being pumped full of toxic chemicals in a vain attempt to preserve my corpse, and thus turned into a bringer of suffering and death to living things.

I'd take the toxic chemicals myself.  ;) I don't know, I'd be interested in it if it was any way feasible. But it definitely wouldn't happen in the next 1,000 years that I'd be reanimated. Medical science so far knows NOTHING.
 
My one caveat would be... and this is just my own personal nonsensical nightmare... but maybe I would somehow have a certain level of consciousness... but be in unbelievable pain as I died away at the slowest rate possible... for millions and millions of years....  :o
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 06:39:04 am by SuperInfinity »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2009, 07:19:26 am »
Why oh why does everyone want to be such a fanatic online?! ....
Well, I know you're not talking about me, because I have been consistently and gradually reducing the carbs and the reason I've been doing it is it has provided fantastic real benefits. The only change I made from this path was at your suggestion and the results were poor!

For whatever reason, it hasn't been sinking in with you that most or all of us here are experiencing marvelous improvements on a lower-carb diet than your extreme high-carb diet. Please stop criticizing us and RPD until you try the low-carb RPD or even just a significantly lower-carb, higher fat RPD than what you've been doing (with no peanuts, which are not Paleo) for at least a week, just as I tried eating a lot of fruits, nuts, fish and eggs and less land mammal meat and fat for a week when you suggested I eat more fruits and less land meats. Until then, you don't know what you're talking about. Also, your diet would be more convincing to others if you behaved in a calm and polite manner instead of like someone wired on carbs.

Please read the Welcome section which says in part, "While we do welcome disagreement with any idea, due to past experiences here, we must ask that if your sole purpose in participation is to disparage this diet or the people who follow it, that you not bother joining (In other words, trolls will not be tolerated for long here).  Also, please refrain from personal attacks and other speech that is not constructive in nature to an RPD lifestyle."

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and my diet is a lot safer and more moderate than many/most/all here....
Please speak for yourself. I tried your advice and experienced a return of some of my symptoms as a result. I've had to cut the experiment with your extremely fruity diet short because my tooth was starting to get a little loose again, in addition to the other symptoms I mentioned. Maybe you're right and the reason is the damage I experienced years ago from SAD--although my blood sugar has always measured within the normal range since I went standard-Paleo. Whatever the reason, I do much better when I eat like Lex than when I eat like you.

Just as Lex said, the changes for better or worse from diet can happen rapidly. Everything that Lex has told me has turned out to be true for me and his help has been priceless. Nothing you've recommended has worked for me. So thanks, but no thanks. I'm happy for you that you're satisfied with your diet, but to continue following your advice at this point would be a mark of insanity on my part. I hope I'll be able to handle fruits better in the future, but right now I can only handle a limited amount of low-sugar fruits, and I actually do worse on apples than I do on berries. As I've said before, I'm hoping to add berries and other occasional fruits like apples back into my diet after the Lex experiment. Lex used to do that but apparently found that he did better when he eliminated fruits entirely, though he can speak to that better than I can.

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It came today and it's extremely good from what I've seen so far. Only thing is it is 1024 pages...
Wow. Let me know if you find anything interesting in it.

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Eggs, fish aren't so bad.
If you can afford it, you could probably get some good results by eating lots of wild fish--cooked as little as you can handle--free-range eggs, greens and a moderate amount of low-sugar fruits.

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http://www.orangutans-sos.org
Thanks

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And why don't you go out and live in the savanna in Africa then and that will also help continue human life by natural workings? I'm sure many hungry leopards and lions would be delighted to welcome you there and include you in the natural workings of the circle of life.  :)
Yes! Heh, maybe you're finally starting to understand me. My dream would be to live with indigenous hunter-gatherers or free-range pastoralists who have access to plentiful big game--adopt the old ways of the human beings, before civilization caused the Great Forgetting. I would enjoy the health benefits and help them defend their way of life against the Takers (governments, corporations, PETA, vegetarians, etc.), and I wouldn't blame the leopards and lions one bit for trying to take a nip out of me now and then to see if I was good food. :D

Living with the San of inner Africa would be nice, except that their big game is growing increasingly scarce and governments are throwing them off their land and banning them from hunting. Then again, trying to bring back the big game and their way of life would be an interesting challenge, and they do have the oldest hunter-gatherer culture and genes yet discovered on earth. A more realistic goal might be to try to help the Lakota, or the Abenaki here in Vermont, or my possible Mohawk relatives in Canada, return to something resembling their old way of life. Drs. Wortman, Phinney and Rosedale have been doing that with some success with the Namgis and Inuit in Alaska (on a diet that is 80 to 83% fats from animals, fish and seafood!).

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Again, I do not believe we were designed to be predators. I could just as well say "Who am I to short-circuit the loop" the other way by eating something I never really wanted or would have caught.
Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn or the teachings of any hunter-gatherer people who remember the old ways and you may come to understand. I'm afraid I don't have the time to explain it all and one must be open to it to fully grasp it.

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I'd take the toxic chemicals myself.  ;) I don't know, I'd be interested in it if it was any way feasible. But it definitely wouldn't happen in the next 1,000 years that I'd be reanimated.
Not me. I'd much rather that my body be eaten by hyenas than made into a hazardous waste site. Why should humans be the only animals to not get eaten (though I would prefer after death, of course ;D) ? Besides, you wouldn't WANT to be reanimated after they pump your body full of that toxic crap--which is rather ironic. It's all for looks so the funeral parlor industry can make more dough. What else is new.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 07:28:12 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2009, 08:30:23 am »
Superinfinity's diet:

RAW FRUIT - you do this.
RAW VEGS - you do this.
RAW ANIMAL FOOD - you do not do this???

Are you interested in eating a RAW PALEO DIET? Yes or No?

There are many raw omnivores here like Raw Kyle, Tyler Durden, GoodSamaritan, Rawzi, Skinny Devil, etc.
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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2009, 07:13:35 pm »
Superinfinity, you had or have a dental problem, so why not read the masterwork on specifically that field, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration", by Weston A. Price DDS?

Then you could engage in informed discourse, instead of what you are now doing.


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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2009, 11:00:50 pm »
Superinfinity, you had or have a dental problem, so why not read the masterwork on specifically that field, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration", by Weston A. Price DDS?

Then you could engage in informed discourse, instead of what you are now doing.

Okay fine you got me, I never read that book fully, I'll read it from start to finish. However I DID read the bits on teeth a while back and fair amounts of the rest of it and it seemed to me that he was 95% saying a primitive diet (ie. ANY primitive diet) was the best and 5% saying organic animal proteins/products might help. For example he mentioned vitamin d from cow's milk/fish a few times, however that's because I think they didn't know back then you could get it from the sun!!!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:10:22 pm by SuperInfinity »

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2009, 11:29:21 pm »
Okay fine you got me, I never read that book fully, I'll read it from start to finish. However I DID read the bits on teeth a while back and fair amounts of the rest of it and it seemed to me that he was 95% saying a primitive diet (ie. ANY primitive diet) was the best and 5% saying organic animal proteins/products might help. For example he mentioned vitamin d from cow's milk/fish a few times, however that's because I think they didn't know back then you could get it from the sun!!!

You are wrong about everything you just said.

1.  They very much DID know you could get it from the sun.  Dr. Price actually mentions the process of irradiating a Vitamin D percursor to get Vitamin D.  Here's a quote from chapter 15:

"There is a misapprehension with regard to the possibility that humans may obtain enough of the vitamin D group of activators from our modern plant foods or from sunshine. This is due to the belief viosterol or similar products by other names, derived by exposing ergosterol to ultraviolet light, offer all of the nutritional factors involved in the vitamin D group. I have emphasized that there are known to be at least eight D factors that have been definitely isolated and twelve that have been reported as partially isolated."




2.  Dr. Price SPECIFICALLY made the point that, before he went on his journeys, he thought he would be able to find a plant food that would make eating animals unecessary.  He SPECIFICALLY says that he was disappointed to find out how important animal products are.  Here's a quote from chapter 7:

"This was a matter of keen interest, and at the same time disappointment, since one of the purposes of the expedition to the South Seas was to find, if possible, plants or fruits which together, without the use of animal products, were capable of providing all of the requirements of the body for growth and for maintenance of good health..."

I'm actually glad that you haven't read the book yet.  I was thinking you were really dumb to have actually read the book, and still say the things you were saying.  No offense, but it was clear that, if you had read it, you sure didn't ABSORB much of it.  LOL

Now it's time to READ THE BOOK.  If you don't have a copy, here's a link to the first 20 chapters online:
journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html

You are really doing a great job.  A great job of being wrong.  It's like John Steinbeck said:

"My father had one quality of genius.  He was always wrong."

Are you sure you're not related to Steinbeck's dad?  LOL

William

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Re: Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than "zero carb".
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2009, 10:13:33 am »
You are wrong about everything you just said.

Relent, cherimoya_kid.

He already said he had not read the whole book, and intends to do it.

 

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