De Vany vs. Graham

[redfulcrum]

Screw the face.  We all know that we weren't "raised" right in the first place.  I know I'm not perfect.  I have physical flaws, but I work with what I have left.  The body, you have control over that.  Condition of hair, skin, eyes, and teeth, you have control over that.  I can look at people walking down the street and point out their deficiencies.  Nobody should have bad breath or have yellow teeth.  Nobody should have to wear deoderant.  Technically, there's no real reason to bathe.  Nobody should have acne either.  Everyone can have beautiful hair if they ate right.  Most of all, nobody should be fat.  It's almost impossible to be fat eating paleo.  Who the heck can sit around and eat fat all day.  I have so much energy I just want to run out and do something all the time.  Diet can change your body very quickly.  It doesn't take years to get your body to become healthy again, but it does take years to see a sub-optimal diet to degrade the body.  If you don't look, feel, think, act better after a diet change, then your diet is not working. 

[RawZi]

... you have control over that.  Condition of hair, skin, eyes, and teeth, you have control over that.  I can look at people walking down the street and point out their deficiencies.  Nobody should have bad breath or have yellow teeth.  ...  Nobody should have acne either.  ...  I have so much energy I just want to run out and do something all the time.  Diet can change your body very quickly.  It doesn't take years to get your body to become healthy again, but it does take years to see a sub-optimal diet to degrade the body.  If you don't look ... better after a diet change, then your diet is not working. 

    I read all the different forums.  Seems it arises quite often that people practicing 80/10/10 have to detox their teeth out of their heads first.  I'm kidding.  But really, many, their teeth start falling out after starting the diet even though they did not have bad teeth before.  Many, their acne gets worse.  I know plenty say after three to five days of the diet everything in their health straightened out and they have never had a health problem ever again and everyone else must be cheating on the diet or something like that otherwise they would have their exact same results.  I think that attitude is ridiculous, in that I have lived long enough to know two people can eat the same food side by side and get possibly "surprisingly" different results.  There are many more factors in life than present diet.  Some may manage with 80/10/10 fine, and maybe even repair a couple of complaints by it, at least for the time being.

    Yeah, and I know what you mean.  I never thought hair color or whatever matters for attractiveness.  The three top points I was always interested in had nothing to do with genetics.  Point one I expect people to have clarity in their eyes.  Point two I expect they carry themselves well, excellent posture.  Point three good teeth/breath (no minty or other cover either).  If there was a point four it would be no fat showing on the body, but the first three are more important.  Healthy skin of course is always attractive too.  No one is moved to reach out and touch abused skin.

    Diet is a lifetime course.  Many people point at the Okinawans.  They are longer lived people than many of us.  Many try to copy their diet in one way or another.  It's not just their diet why they live longer.  It's many factors.  They look a lot younger for their ages too, even in their faces from pics I've seen.  SAD doesn't do that, and neither does 80/10/10.  Many get a lot of lines on their faces, brown spots, overly tightness to the point of their discomfort etc.  I know it's not fair because I've never seen a pic of a 110 year old 80/10/10er, but at thirty-seven they start to look old, when they did not before.  From what I've seen you need RAF and make sure to include non-grain outdoor raised in the grass raw animal fats too, to look healthy past that age, in most cases. 

    My Mom looked in her twenties way way past that age (I dont mean 110 mean past 30s) and she ate a cooked meat paleo diet (I include in that raw vegetables and raw fruit), and never did anything for her (skin) health (or bodyfat ratio) besides her WOE and lots of physical activity.  I'm not endorsing her diet for everyone here, or even anyone, but it works better than 80/10/10 in many cases I've seen.

[PaleoPhil]

I’ll repeat that I’m not saying the images PROVE anything, just that they raise questions. Isn’t it OK to raise questions in a free society or forum? No one has said that Graham on his own is statistically significant, so this is not about statistics. I just find that his appearance raises some questions about his claims—as do some of his own supporters.

Pictures of diet gurus don't mean much unless they have lived for a significant time on their diet, 20+ years....

GRAHAM HAS BEEN A RAW VEGAN FOR 30+ YEARS
Well, Graham says he has been eating raw vegan for 30 years (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmcYRSvwGM&feature=player_embedded --BTW, it looks like he has unusual swelling in his jaw area in this video--any idea what that is?), so that more than meets your test. Don't these images raise questions for you when at the same time his aging is accelerating, a guru makes broad or extreme claims like:

SOME OF GRAHAM’S BROAD OR EXTREME CLAIMS (emphases mine):
> "Are you ready to experience the health and vitality expressed by our anthropoid [monkey, ape and human] cousins? If so, you must be willing to eat a low-fat raw vegan diet, similar to what they follow." –D.G. “The low fat diet in a nutshell”
> "For me, there is no going back." –D.G “What Are You Passionate About?” [Regardless of whatever health damage might be done and regardless of the scientific evidence?]
> "If you would like to see your health and fitness blossom, it is time to merge science with philosophy by eating a low-fat raw vegan diet." –D.G. “The Low-Fat Diet in a Nutshell” [The message is not restricted to just some people or qualified in any way, implying this diet is for everyone. This quote raises the question, does DG’s own health look like it’s blossoming well for his age?]
> "The low-fat diet (a maximum of roughly ten percent of total calories consumed) is universally recommended for maximum health and fitness results, by those health experts who consistently help people reverse disease and live vibrant lives." [This is actually a highly controversial view.]
FROM The 80/10/10 Diet:
> "a high-fat diet is...nutrient poor"
> "Like all other primates, we were made to function perfectly on the amount of nutrients found in fruits and vegetables, in the quantities that we would eat those foods whole." [Notice that he doesn’t say “well” or “optimally”— he says “perfectly”]
> "Too much protein in our diets is associated with all manner of health impairments, including ... premature aging...." p. 94 [He also points to “excitotoxins” as accelerating aging. This raises the question, that if too much protein and excitotoxins is the major cause, then why is he prematurely aging?]

Surely no one would suggest that we just accept the excuses made for him without question? A Graham supporter wrote that Graham admits that he looks old for his age and that Graham claims it is due to bad genes he inherited from his parents, so there’s another reason the photoshop remark is a red herring, in addition my earlier point of it being from a video rather than a single still image. The video in which Graham looks the worst is one made by Paul Nison, who is a personal friend of Graham. Neither Graham himself, nor his supporters claim that the multiple videos on the Internet created by people friendly toward him are photoshopped, so that claim is a ridiculous red herring until someone can provide some actual evidence or a motive or a claim by Graham or his supporters that he was photoshopped. Which is more likely: that multiple entire videos that Graham voluntarily participated in and that were put up by people friendly toward him were photoshopped, without any complaint from him or his supporters, or that Tyler might be mistaken?

There's lots to respond to here, so more to come...

[RawZi]

GRAHAM HAS BEEN A RAW VEGAN FOR 30+ YEARS

    Raw vegan supporters of his who know him personally have told me in the last few months that he was not raw vegan for 30 some odd years, but little more than fifteen years.  I know Nison is claimed to be raw vegan 15 years and I believe it.  I do mean Doug.  I was recently told he's been  100% raw vegan about 15 years.  Of course, I do not know Graham, so I don't know this with my own eyes.

[Nation]

I was just watching Durianrider's newest videos and compared em to his oldest video, 1.5 years ago. Is it just me or did he age quite a bit, look paler, no glow, hallow cheeks? All in 1.5 year.


July 2008   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23THXDPAKc&NR=1


January 2010 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gae6k6tLY     

January 2010 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Cy8OwoD1Y

[RawZi]

... Is it just me or did he age quite a bit, look paler, no glow, hallow cheeks?

    In the videos you presented, he looks "whiter colored" now. 

[TylerDurden]

One only has to look at that photo of The Bear to see how utterly dubious photos etc. are re judging peoples' health. He looks great, yet it seems he's had throat-cancer and, interestingly, heart-disease, and lord knows what other health-problems which he hasn't mentioned yet.

There are other obvious considerations.Physical appearance is not an accurate way to  judge health for the whole of the body. For example, if one had seen photos of me pre-rawpalaeodiet, one would have seen a very fat but jovial figure with lots of fat around the face giving an extremely deceptive healthier look than the scrawny red-eyed sad-looking photo I took many months into the RPD diet. Pre-RPD, I'd had terrible health-problems, many of which were quickly solved within months of going rawpalaeo, but a superficial person looking at those pics would make the wrong decision based on such evaluation.

And there is the genetics issue. I have come across studies claiming that parental characteristics such as decreased aging rate re reduced numbers of wrinkles can be passed on to descendants.

[ForTheHunt]

One only has to look at that photo of The Bear to see how utterly dubious photos etc. are re judging peoples' health. He looks great, yet it seems he's had throat-cancer and, interestingly, heart-disease, and lord knows what other health-problems which he hasn't mentioned yet.

There are other obvious considerations.Physical appearance is not an accurate way to  judge health for the whole of the body. For example, if one had seen photos of me pre-rawpalaeodiet, one would have seen a very fat but jovial figure with lots of fat around the face giving an extremely deceptive healthier look than the scrawny red-eyed sad-looking photo I took many months into the RPD diet. Pre-RPD, I'd had terrible health-problems, many of which were quickly solved within months of going rawpalaeo, but a superficial person looking at those pics would make the wrong decision based on such evaluation.

And there is the genetics issue. I have come across studies claiming that parental characteristics such as decreased aging rate re reduced numbers of wrinkles can be passed on to descendants.

I might be wrong but doesn't he only eat cooked meat? Also he smokes if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure those are the reasons for his problems.

Also wow.. Doug Graham looks awful. I mean, wow. And that other guys looks have definitely gone down hill since he vent vegan.

[Nation]

So how old is Doug Graham?

[cherimoya_kid]

Graham was born in March of 1953.

[RawZi]

... And that other guys looks have definitely gone down hill since he vent vegan.

    For the hunt, which other guy?  I think you may have the amount of time he's claimed to be raw vegan mixed up, if he's who I think you mean.

[ForTheHunt]

I was talking about DurianRider whos videos were posted in this thread

[RawZi]

I was talking about DurianRider whos videos were posted in this thread

    He turned Vegan in 2001.  He turned NHraw vegan in 2005.  He tells his followers that following his diet there is no need for B12 supplementation, yet to please your doctor, it's ok to take the shots.  He took his most recent course of B12 shots in November.

MSNBC AU9 June 8, 2007

Harley Johnstone is an extreme vegan. The 29-year-old endurance cyclist went cold turkey on poultry and meat six years ago and is now a total fruit and nut fan. "I wanted more so I went raw and I haven't looked back since."
His vegan diet excludes any kind of meat product whatsoever, so that means that eggs, cheese and dairy are out.

Nathan Smith is completely at the opposite end of the spectrum — he's our extreme meat-eater and butcher. He tried giving meat up once, but couldn't stay off the cattle truck. "I lost about 15 kilos. I just lost too much weight so I went back on it."
Nathan gets through a staggering half a kilo of meat a day!

Jaime Selva's also a butcher, but he only eats lean meat about four times a week. "The best thing I like about meat is the flavour and nutrients it gives me to get through my day."
Edwina Searle is our last candidate she's all about balance — Edwina eats a combo of meat, fruit and veggies. "I don't believe in an all or nothing kind of diet. I think you've got to have your protein, you've got to have minerals and vitamins from other sources and we're made to eat meat."
So whose diet is the healthiest? Well, regardless of what our volunteers think — their blood tells the true story.

We checked their cholesterol for heart health and compared their levels of iron, zinc, protein and Vitamin B12 — which are all essential ingredients for long term health.

Dietitian Susie Burrell oversaw the test and was especially concerned about the non-meat eaters: "They are eliminating a large number of food groups, so the vitamins B12, iron, zinc are again at risk, so they're the two that we'll be looking at most closely to make sure they aren't at risk of any nutrient deficiencies."

Results

So how did our candidates go with their blood tests?

Edwina
"Well, the good news is everything is completely normal and you're a picture of health according to your blood test," says Susie.

Jaime
Now remember, he mainly eats lean cuts of meat about four times a week.

"Your cholesterol is all normal, your iron, your B12, your zinc, as we would expect from a regular meat-eater, again all normal and everything's looking pretty good. You're pretty fit and healthy at the moment," says Susie.

So it seems lean is clean but what of our other carnivore?

Nathan
This blokes eats just about anything with a pulse — three to four kilos a week of meat regardless of whether it's lean, fat or chunky.

"Unfortunately your cholesterol is abnormally high. So fatty minces and sausages really do add a significant amount of saturated fats to your dietary intake which could be directly impacting on your cholesterol level," says Susie.

Normal cholesterol levels range from 3.9 to 5.5, but Nathan's is already 5.6 which is a wake up call.

"I will change my diet a bit. I will look at eating more walnuts and fish oil and looking at lowering the cholesterol and cutting the fat out a bit more seriously now," says Nathan.

Now it's onto our vegetarians.

Mark
He eats animal products like milk and eggs — it's meat Mark avoids.

"The fantastic thing to note with your results is that your HDL cholesterol which is the good cholesterol, the type that clears out the bad cholesterol in the blood stream, is really high, abnormally high, which means that you're pretty healthy so you're in really good nick," says Susie.

That's a huge tick for a balanced vegetarian diet, but what of Harley our strict vegan?

Harley
Remember, Harley completely cuts out anything to do with animal products and relies purely on raw fruit, veggies and nuts.

His results have got Susie really worried: "My biggest concern is that your vitamin B12 is one of the lowest clinical levels we have ever seen!"

Harley's B12 was just 78. That's drastically lower than the normal intake range from 145 to 637 and means our vegan could be susceptible to anaemia, blurry vision and loss of feeling in the hands and feet in the long term.

"In the case of vegans, it's really up to them if they decide to supplement with B12. It is primarily from animal-based food so it's probably worth him discussing it with his GP or medical specialist," says Susie.

On the positive side the rest of Harley's results were perfectly normal.

Conclusion So, Mark, Edwina and Jaime have healthy diets but Mark gets a special mention for having lots of the right kind of cholesterol. In fact, recent studies have shown that a balanced vegetarian diet can often reduce cholesterol levels.

The main message for Nathan and Harley is; if you're going to be an extreme meat eater or vegan, you have to accept there may be health consequences.

    
    According to this picture taken in 2006 he is now 34.  He claims on his site to be now 32 like the article, and that this picture is indeed him.  I think he looks pretty good in the picture.  

[PaleoPhil]

   Raw vegan supporters of his who know him personally have told me in the last few months that he was not raw vegan for 30 some odd years, but little more than fifteen years.  I know Nison is claimed to be raw vegan 15 years and I believe it.  I do mean Doug.  I was recently told he's been  100% raw vegan about 15 years.  Of course, I do not know Graham, so I don't know this with my own eyes.

OK, thanks. It’s surprising I haven’t seen vegans give that excuse yet.

EXCUSES MADE FOR GRAHAM’S APPEARANCE:
Attempts have been made by his supporters to explain his accelerated aging, but they seem more excuses born of desperation than logic. As I mentioned above, one excuse made for Graham’s aging is that it is due to genes, rather than environment. Graham devotees at FoodnSport wrote: "We believe that health is the birthright of each individual and is the result of lifestyle choices and environmental factors." So that sort of throws the bad genes excuse for his accelerated aging out the window, right?
Other excuses given include:
> "As long as he feels good though, then who cares."
> "he has previously said that he overdoes the sun-worship and we all know how aging that can be...he was also a very ill child...who knows what effects that has had...we aren't all handed the best genes....another factor....he also works , by all accounts, way too much and doesn't get the adequate rest that he advocates" [The sun-worship argument was responded to with the next point below by another raw vegan]

EVEN SOME 811ERS AND OTHER RAW VEGANS HAVE BEEN ADMITTING THAT GRAHAM DOESN'T LOOK TOO HOT AND EVEN MAKING THE SAME COMPARISONS THAT I HAVE!:
>  “I'd compare Doug [Graham] to someone else his same age, who is also a long-time athlete and has been in the sun his whole life like Mark Sisson: Mark Sisson on TV: View from the Bay  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYmVAdaS7QU&feature=player_embedded [Mark clearly looks better for his age than Graham in this "Shun Whole Grains" feature,” despite Mark also having engaged in a lot of sun worship]
> “Or Art De Vany, another sun worshipper and a paleo dieter” http://api.ning.com/files/NmqOOfzqPf9xyJqElm-TqHdLu58WYFpnCFobF5IKTVQycPHrGuMk**zaIQqkbSJjjquf9FjjUmeBEc0ncn96gBc1DzV2LJy3/ArtDeVany3.png [De Vany also looks better than Graham in this png image that won't show up here]
> "I think the effects of advanced glycation are catching up with Doug"
> "Doug doesn't even look healthy any more"
> "a number of fruitarian ladies I've seen pics of who I guessed to be anywhere from 7-12 years older than they actually were (these were long termer's like Doug, so I felt the comparison was somewhat fair). They all had very similar types of aging going on."
> "he looks very odd and much older than his age unfortunately. I guess it is not looks that count at the end, but the actual health and how a person feels. Comment about him having lots of dental work worries me slightly, as my gums got a lot worse when I was eating only fruit. I am new to this, but only have seen a couple of people, who look truly healthy and radiant (all women)."
> “…if someone has been raw for 30 years, they should look good right? I mean, there is no way that my skin is going to ever be line free. … I've accepted that. But, many of these people have been raw for years and never had all of the bad habits that I had. They should have fantastic skin. But, if someone has been raw for 30-40 years, in my eyes they should look glowing...don't you agree? I'm not saying they have to be handsome or beautiful, what I am saying is that they should have clear eyes, clear skin, etc.”

Note: One of the threads in the raw vegan forum where these admissions and concerns were starting to pile up got deleted.

GRAHAM IS NOT AN ISOLATED PHENOMENON:
Should we also accept without question the excuses made for the followers of Graham's 811 (short for 80-10-10) diet and other extreme raw vegan gurus and dieters who appear to age rapidly or otherwise deteriorate, such as these quotes indicate…
> I think he [Graham] looks very odd and much older than his age unfortunately. I guess it is not looks that count at the end, but the actual health and how a person feels. Comment about him having lots of dental work worries me slightly, as my gums got a lot worse when I was eating only fruit. I am new to this, but only have seen a couple of people [ie, 811 dieters], who look truly healthy and radiant (all women).
> "As for folks looking older cos they eat fruit,im unsure about that,there are so many factors to ageing,genetics being one,lifestyle choices,too much sun,not enough sun,def not enough sleep,and too much stress."
> “I think our perception of what healthy looks like is a little warped by society's standards. I do agree however that some of these raw [vegan/vegetarian] gurus look malnourished and rather frail. Maybe they are missing vital nutrients, arent getting enough variety or are eating raw foods that hurt more than they help.”
> “When I did 811 I would eat 3000-4000 calories and still be hungry, so I had to step back and re-evaluate my diet.”

...or should we instead ask whether diet might be a factor, rather than excluding it from consideration? Why do the apologists only exclude diet when Graham's book suggests that diet is very important? As you can see, multiple raw vegans are distressed by the rapid aging of both Graham’s and other fruitarian-oriented raw vegans.

MORE COMPARISON IMAGES:
Again, while this doesn’t “prove” anything, it is interesting to compare earlier vs. later photos for the Bear, De Vany and Graham...

The Bear as a young man:
The Bear in 1999? at age 64?:
I'm guessing that this is one of Bear's better photos, right? Does anyone have access to any of his poorer photos of recent years that were referred to?

Art De Vany, reportedly age 60:

Ar De Vany, age 71:

Ar De Vany, age 71: (png image doesn't display): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3Hk10MXU4MI/SyUk9XgVI1I/AAAAAAAAAEw/l_xTFQbucDU/s400/Art-DeVany.png

Ar De Vany, age 72: He's finally noticeably aging a bit, but not much.

Doug Graham years ago:
Doug Graham recently:
Here's another recent video of Graham posted by a mostly-vegan dieter in which Graham looks even worse than in the first video I posted, probably in part due to poor quality video image: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG7bd0lxVfo&feature=player_embedded If Graham was born in March of 1953, then that would make him 56 currently.
Graham today looks like a different person from his younger years.

As was mentioned, Durianrider does look paler and slightly slimmer than before. Not a big change, though. It’s early yet for him and, like Lance Armstrong, I think his extensive exercise probably helps reduce the toxic effects of the foods he eats by rapidly burning them off—so far. Eventually I do think he’ll pay a price if he keeps at it.

He tells his followers that following his diet there is no need for B12 supplementation, yet to please your doctor, it's ok to take the shots.  He took his most recent course of B12 shots in November.

Is that responsible, for him to get B12 shots himself but tell others they don’t need them, without any personal experience to back this up?

Tyler, why are even some 811 dieters acknowledging that Graham does not look very good for his age in these videos, while you still have not and instead have only suggested possible excuses? Granted, he doesn’t look as bad in some images as others, but overall he does look older than his age. Again, I’m NOT saying this PROVES anything. I’m saying it should cause us to ask questions, and it IS causing raw vegans to ask questions (and apparently get censored for it). It's interesting that we here seem to be on balance excusing Graham more than the folks at a raw vegan forum.

Perhaps I should have expected it, but I was a little surprised that this thread generated so much feedback and multiple misunderstandings that require responses that are critical of Graham, so I’ve ended up putting out more critical info about Graham than I originally intended to (as I normally prefer to focus on ideas rather than personalities). So in the interests of fairness and politeness, I'll point out that I agree with Dr. Graham on some things, such as the benefits of eating raw vs. cooked and of eating more like our ancient ancestors. Also, some of his followers appear to make many more extreme claims than he does, so he’s not directly to blame for it all and from what I’ve seen his message seems to get exaggerated by his admirers. That said, if the posts of people who follow his diet or used to follow it are any indication, then Graham's 811 diet seems to be one of the worst I've ever encountered. Possibly second worst after Breatharianism.

[ForTheHunt]

Awesome read tyler. Pretty much nails it

[Nation]

...

Graham looks even worse in that video, he looks like he's gonna pass out the 1st 2 seconds we see him. Ar De Vany looks amazing at 72.

[carnivore]

Devany is in fantastic shape and beats everybody else! He is a paleo athlete!
The Bear is ...a chubby bear and Graham an old monkey.

[TylerDurden]

Tyler, why are even some 811 dieters acknowledging that Graham does not look very good for his age in these videos, while you still have not and instead have only suggested possible excuses? Granted, he doesn’t look as bad in some images as others, but overall he does look older than his age. Again, I’m NOT saying this PROVES anything. I’m saying it should cause us to ask questions, and it IS causing raw vegans to ask questions (and apparently get censored for it). It's interesting that we here seem to be on balance excusing Graham more than the folks at a raw vegan forum.

  You do seem to be cherry-picking here.  I mean 1 bad example doesn't apply to all others. As for me, if I were to look at those photos, not knowing their diets but only their ages, I would automatically think that Art DeVany was the fittest but that The Bear was the healthiest of the lot, by far, despite his having had heart-disease etc.(wait aminute, Cordain is the handsomest and has brighter glowing skin because of his particularly light Scandinavian looks, so would easily beat The Bear). This is because a person with better facial symmetry/strong bones/beauty etc. usually looks healthier than someone a lot weaker-looking even if the latter is healthier(I was going to give an example from this forum but that would be unwise, I guess).

As for genetics, I only have to look at my own family. There's a recent study which showed that women tended to copy their mother's individual rate of aging re number of wrinkles appearing at a certain age etc. My own cousins, for example, have inherited their mother's rather awful skin and have started looking older than most women their own age, from the age of 20 onwards. And they all eat standard SAD diet like everybody else.

Now Art DeVany also has an advantage over the others in that he seems to emphasise exercise far above even diet. If the other gurus all did the same level of exercise, I'm sure they'd look a lot better than they do now, and might even surpass Art DeVany in their physical appearance re health.

In short, I don't want particular gurus singled out as healthier simply because they, by chance, had better lighting etc. in their photos/videos.

[carnivore]

Now Art DeVany also has an advantage over the others in that he seems to emphasise exercise far above even diet. If the other gurus all did the same level of exercise, I'm sure they'd look a lot better than they do now, and might even surpass Art DeVany in their physical appearance re health.

Graham emphasis also exercice : http://foodnsport.com/events/health-and-fitness-week.html

Devany :



Graham :

[TylerDurden]

My other obvious concern re this issue of guru-photos is the whole concept of guru-worship. There's nothing worse than relying on the evidence/data from 1 person, photos or otherwise. Look at the Bear and AV who both claim mythical laboratory results which they never provide etc.. Far better to just rely on the multiple personal accounts of hundreds/thousands of the various diet-followers and choose those  individuals whose past experiences mirror your own, as the people to emulate.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for sharing your opinions about the images, Tyler. As for your criticisms, accusations and concerns, I'm wearying of responding to them and I don't want to have to repeat myself anymore. I do appreciate your critiques when you provide some research or something new that I can learn from, but I'm not learning anything from your posts on this subject, so I figure it's best to not respond further to them in this case.

So if anyone else takes your criticisms, etc. seriously, they can let me know and I'll respond. Otherwise it would probably be a waste of everyone's time, as I doubt that there's anything I could post re: this thread's topic that would satisfy you in the slightest.

[RawZi]

... Look at the Bear and AV who both claim mythical laboratory results which they never provide etc.. Far better to just rely on the multiple personal accounts of hundreds/thousands of the various diet-followers and choose those whose individuals whose past experiences mirror your own, as the people to emulate.

    Thousands are great, but aajonus has provided at least some labwork.  I have seen it.  Before and after.  Anyone who subscribes to the WW2L site can see it.  I don't read everything there, but from what I have read, I have seen.

[TylerDurden]

    Thousands are great, but aajonus has provided at least some labwork.  I have seen it.  Before and after.  Anyone who subscribes to the WW2L site can see it.  I don't read everything there, but from what I have read, I have seen.

Well, it's a start. But is this genuine AV-originated lab-work or just some studies done by other people with no connection to AV?

[RawZi]

    Photocopied of labwork done on him is what I saw, if I recall correctly.  I have not looked again.

    Some time back he showed pics of someones finger growing back, if I do recall.  I didn't pay attention, but recently an eye witness told me the whole story, from their perspective.

[TylerDurden]

Whole finger growing back? Now that's going to take a hell of a lot of very open scientific evidence. I'm not going to bother just subscribing to wewant2live.com just for that.