Author Topic: Yuri recovery  (Read 191889 times)

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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #175 on: September 23, 2009, 12:21:03 am »
The difference between the fresh and sour cream is that the former is obtained form the fresh milk while the latter from the fermented milk. When milk ferments the fat usually goest to top. This is the traditional method of separating cream from milk. However, you can also get cream from the fresh milk. For this you may need a separator or cool the milk. You can still make sour cream by letting fresh cream sour naturally. So basically sour cream is just fresh cream gone bad...  ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 12:27:18 am by rawlion »
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #176 on: October 07, 2009, 06:54:07 pm »
Ariite

Now is just the right time to give you a run down on the latest developments of my recovery saga.

At the end of June I finished my experiments with cooked foods. I may remind you that at the beginning of April I added some cooked starches to my raw paleo diet.  I did that because the importance of slow complex carbohydrates is every so often emphasized for the adrenal fatigue recovery.

It is nothing to be surprised about that I still continued to experience all those classic adrenal related symptoms. I was lethargic, fatigued, anemic. My muscles were weak and sore. I was ravenously hungry all the time. Despite the hot summer weather I was bitterly cold. I suffered from constant insomnia. I couldn’t cope with the chronic fear, worry and anxiety. So I got deeply frustrated with all that cooked experiment and decided to discontinue it altogether.

Early in July I went briefly on the Primal Diet. Than I switched to an all egg/yolk diet and remained on it until the end of the month. As the August rolled around I enriched my daily ration with 3-4 oz of organ meats, butter and a quart of home fermented goats milk. Along with that I used to have two large carbohydrates meals a week which consisted of about a kilo of local grown fruits. Eventually I amounted up to a pound of meat and a 1.5 quart of milk daily. I should also mention that throughout June and July I was drinking from one to four cups of green vegetable juices (mostly cucumber with little parsley or dill) each day.

I have to admit that during these two months I had some bright moments. There were the days when I was literary flying. On very rare occasions I felt like I had boundless amounts of energy. Sadly, each such high would be inevitably followed by a sickening crash. Such rollercoaster would further deteriorate my fragile health. I think that in general I was declining.

At the start of September I made a two-week long visit to my friend in the western Ukraine. It would have been bloody embarrassing to reveal my true eating habits. So I decided to endure a fortnight of fruitarian lifestyle. It proved to be much harder to sustain than I initially thought. I went through the incessant diarrhea, awful stomach pains, foul smelling gas and bloating. All these agonizing sufferings far outweighed the deceptive feeling of lightness, agility and liveliness.

There in the countryside, surrounded by the beauty of the Dniester Canyon, I was absorbed in thoughts. I spent whole hours in deep reflections about what went wrong. I had no illusions about the painful reality. Is the recovery to full health possible? Is it still a long way of…? I have got a lot on my mind at the moment. It raced, trying to think of a way out of the situation… I was open to the voice of reason. And I sensibly decided in favour of zero carbing.
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #177 on: October 15, 2009, 09:49:51 pm »
This key decision has been made on the 15-th of September. Exactly one month has passed since then. It is just the proper time to evaluate how this desperate attempt is progressing.

             The basics:
Food: 700 – 800 grams of mutton ribs/brisket.
Water: one pint daily.
Regimen: two meals a day.
Supplements: 500 mg – 1 g of Vitamin C.

Quality
For some time prior to and just after the beginning of my ZC I have been searching high and low for the good quality meats. Since I didn’t have a wide range of available choices I had to settle with the fresh mutton ribs and frozen wild fish. The mutton is neither grass-fed nor organic. It is just a normal/conventional domesticated mutton. I suppose the animals are fed grass, tubers and probably some grain. During the winter grass is substituted for hay. I cannot be sure but just hope that it is not injected with any vaccines or given other shots. I prefer ribs over other parts because they are the cheapest, the fattiest and the tastiest. I thought that in case the mutton that I eat is deficient in Omega-3 it would be a good idea to include some fish into the diet.

Quantity
At the start my daily menu included about a pound of fatty mutton ribs and one whole Atlantic herring or mackerel (200 – 300 g). Initially I didn’t know the exact percentage of fat to protein but then one day when I was butchering the ribs I decided to separate fat from lean and measure it. It turned out to be around 30% of fat by weight or 80% by calories. Since the fish is leaner (60% of fat by calories) the ratios of the whole diet were in the range of 75% of fat by calories. The total caloric intake was approximately 2000 kcal a day, whereas the amount of protein was 115 g or so and fat is 175 g. This continued for a week when I eschewed the fish and added more mutton. From that moment on my diet has been 700 – 800 grams of mutton ribs. It is roughly 2500 kcal daily, 115 g of protein and 240 of fat. By calories fat is 80% and protein is 20%.

My digestive abilities are severely limited. I can only consume under a pound of meat daily without significant discomfort. But in order to avoid caloric restriction and starvation I have to significantly exceed the above mentioned comfortable maximum. As a result it is not uncommon for me to suffer from heaviness and presence of food in the stomach, as well as from left side under rib pain. And I just can’t keep those ravenous hunger pangs at bay.

Frequency
After my intermittent fasting disaster I was understandably cautious about skipping meals. I attempted eating 5 – 6 times a day and sometimes even more. I tried to never go without food for more than three or four hours. But on those rare occasions when through force of circumstances I had to fast for a relatively short periods of time I experienced the sudden surges of clarity, vigour and vitality. Having thought about this phenomenon for quite a bit I agreed on a fair compromise between the two extremes. As a result I consume two meals per day, one just before the midday and another early in the evening.

The amount of water that I drink may seem to be rather low but I’m satisfied with it and don’t want more.

The Vitamin C issue
It is obviously a topic of considerable controversy for me. When I first got it I was somewhat sceptical about it. But it has certainly made an enormous difference. It alleviated some of my symptoms (muscle pain and weakness), enabled me to consume more meat (without it I can only consume half a pound daily) and made me feel better in general. I faced a dilemma of whether to stick with it or not. I stopped it for four or five times, waited for a week or two and analysed the results. Time and time again I have been noticing the marked improvement when I took it. It was a no-brainer that my adrenals undoubtedly benefited from it. After all I gave it the benefit of the doubt, at least for now.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #178 on: October 16, 2009, 02:14:07 am »
Shouldn't you be eating fruit instead of artificial vitamin C?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline ys

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #179 on: October 16, 2009, 02:36:37 am »
Fruit would be perfectly OK if you don't mind extra sugars.  One average-size apple has about 15gr of sugar, that's about 3 full tea-spoons.

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #180 on: October 16, 2009, 02:54:27 am »
Yes I should. And I definitely will after I have got my health back.

I think that healthy individuals on a raw paleo diet require very little dietary Vit C. People with certain health issues (adrenal fatigue) may need significantly higher dosages.

Since I acquired hormonal related problems I've been eating 5-10% of fruit most of the time. This is one year and a half. My health has been progressively declining each day. I became so weak that I had to leave the job. I was so anemic that I couldn't even speak on the phone. I remained in the bed most days because it was a big struggle for me to get out of it. Synthetic Vit C has helped me tremendously.

But honestly, I hate even the mere thought that I'm taking it. I'm doing it for only one reason: BECAUSE IT WORKS. And works much better than all the fruits in the world.

Still, why do you think that Ascorbic Acid is unconditionally harmful?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #181 on: October 16, 2009, 10:51:00 am »
...
Quality
For some time prior to and just after the beginning of my ZC I have been searching high and low for the good quality meats. Since I didn’t have a wide range of available choices I had to settle with the fresh mutton ribs and frozen wild fish. The mutton is neither grass-fed nor organic. It is just a normal/conventional domesticated mutton. I suppose the animals are fed grass, tubers and probably some grain. During the winter grass is substituted for hay. ...
A friend of mine told me that her co-worker from Ukraine said that most of the meats there are grassfed, but it sounds like that's not true, based on what you're telling me, correct?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #182 on: October 16, 2009, 05:47:02 pm »
Well, if you think it works for you..
In my own case, artificial vitamins/minerals did nothing for me, I just pissed them out almost immediately.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #183 on: October 16, 2009, 06:08:21 pm »
I explored through the length and breadth of this country in search of the true grass-fed meats. I can assure you that I know this issue inside out. The simple truth is that there are no either fully grass-fed or even organic meats here in Ukraine. What we have is something special. I talked to hundreds of people who grow their own animals, as well as to farmers, butchers, veterinarians, sanitary inspections the lot. They believe it is a complete absurd that animals can be raised on grass only. They ALL remain firmly convinced that poor animal MUST eat grains and tubers and corn in order to survive… They cultivate their gardens to provide this forage. Such is their set of mind. It’s local mentality. You just can’t eradicate that. These are difficult to root out prejudices. And they all vaccinate. You have to show the relevant documentation in order to sell on the market. The same situation is in most neighbouring countries. And her co-worker is hugely mislead. Just because these issues are not regulated by the government it doesn’t necessarily mean that meats are of exceptional quality. This is simply not true. There is, however, one exception. There high in the Carpathian Mountains, early in the Spring when the grass just starts to grow, the shepherd walks around the area and collects domesticated sheep. His herd grazes the endless highland pastures until the late fall when the animals are handed back to their original hosts. This is the quality. This is grass fed. This is organic. This is free range. But only seasonally… And only so far away…
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:51:57 pm by rawlion »
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #184 on: October 16, 2009, 06:32:11 pm »
Well, if you think it works for you..
In my own case, artificial vitamins/minerals did nothing for me, I just pissed them out almost immediately.

My long-term commitment to raw pelo principles is unquestionable. But sometimes a slight deviation is required due to the combination of circumstances.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #185 on: October 17, 2009, 12:39:15 am »
... They believe it is a complete absurd that animals can be raised on grass only. They ALL remain firmly convinced that poor animal MUST eat grains and tubers and corn in order to survive…
Wow, that is rather unfortunate extreme ignorance. It's their belief that is absurd. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of 100% grassfed cattle operations around the world (with many having Websites)--including even here in cold, wintry Vermont. There is little or no cereal grains (including corn) or tubers available to most ruminants in the wild (ruminants cannot dig up tubers the way pigs can), so it's just not possible that grains or tubers would be required for their survival. Heck, if there are any old cattle men around there who raised cattle before the 1950s in Ukraine, I would think there's a good chance they were 100% pasture-feeding them, and they could personally attest to the survival of the cattle. Today's young, ignorant cattle raisers just need to ask the old timers.

<<Grass-Fed Beef
The Paleo Diet Newsletter
Volume 3, Issue 2
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/newsletter/PDUpdate0407.shtml

Changes in Cattle Husbandry and Feeding Practices since the Industrial Revolution

...In the U.S., prior to 1850 virtually all cattle were free range or pasture fed and typically slaughtered at 4-5 years of age (3).  By about 1885, the science of rapidly fattening cattle in feedlots had advanced to the point where it was possible to produce a 545 kg steer ready for slaughter in 24 months and which exhibited “marbled meat” (3). ....

Modern feedlot operations involving as many as 100,000 cattle emerged in the 1950s....>>


Grass-fed beef heading for table
Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file) - Chicago, Ill.
Author:    Richard Orr
Date:    Sep 28, 1974

 "After World War 11 a significant shift to grain feeding occurred, although It took nearly two decades for the practice to become widespread."
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #186 on: October 17, 2009, 02:55:09 am »
I've got the day off and am taking it easy today after getting my overdue dental gum graft procedure done (don't worry--the problem existed long before my RPD diet, so it's not the result of that), and I've got lots of experience with mineral supplements, so I'll delve further into this subject that I've touched on before.

Well, if you think it works for you..
In my own case, artificial vitamins/minerals did nothing for me, I just pissed them out almost immediately.
Mineral supplementation predates humans. Animals that eat a diet heavy in plants need to supplement with minerals (see the video below)--and the clay-rich soils also act as a detoxicant for the antinutrients that otherwise would accumulate from eating herbivorous foods. They don't immediately piss out the minerals. If they did, they could not survive.

I sympathize with your skepticism re: minerals, Tyler, because I used to share it. I've heard the "expensive piss" argument from skeptics of supplements before and even made it myself in the past. The usual case is that the skeptic has tried certain supplements without benefit or has never tried supplements and read or heard negative information about them. Having worked in a health store and seeing that many supplements and herbal treatments did little or nothing for my customers, I do think that the benefits of supplements are oversold by the supplement companies, but if they really had no effect whatsoever, then animals would not bother with mineral-rich clay pits like the one in the video and physicians would not prescribe oral and intravenous nutrients for their seriously deficient patients. Interestingly, unadulterated minerals were one of the things in the store that actually did seem to help a good portion of my customers who tried them, yet there was much less push from the owner of the store and the distributors to sell them (the heavier push was on the latest fads, patented mixtures, and stuff that made little sense to me, like homeopathic and flower remedies), because they are basically unpatentable commodities with low profit margins.

In my own experience, I had heard the expensive urine argument from my high school biology teacher and assumed he was right for years. I developed chronic acne in my senior year. My mother was a reader of Prevention magazine and she told me about Prevention's recommendation of zinc for chronic acne. I gave her the expensive piss argument, but she persisted, so I tried the recommended dose (I think it was 25 or 30mg per day) just to get her off my back, not expecting it to work--and it didn't. I saw this as confirmation of my teacher's remark.

Years later when my various of my health symptoms worsened I became motivated to find solutions and tried nearly everything, including trying various supplements--again with little or no noticeable effect. So I again assumed that my teacher had been right.

Some more years later I tried eliminating dairy and gluten with my doctor's encouragement and experienced amazing benefits. One of the benefits I experienced was a dramatic reduction in my acne to the point where most of it was gone three and a half weeks after going gluten free. Unlike my high school days, I had access to the relatively recent invention of the Internet and I found much research about how gluten prevents absorption of certain nutrients and how components of it like phytates even act as "antinutrients," binding with minerals like zinc and magnesium and leading to deficiencies in these nutrients. I read that zinc deficiency was associated with chronic acne. I also read how going GF can heal the small and large intestines and improve absorption of minerals and other nutrients (I would later learn that consumption of dairy is also associated with acne, as is consumption of other modern foods, not just wheat).

A little while later I experienced some gradual increase in acne again. While it was nowhere near as bad as before I had gone GF, it was annoying enough to warrant treating it. But instead of reaching for my old topical prescriptions, I wondered whether going GF would have reduced the antinutrient levels in my diet sufficiently and improved my intestinal absorption to the point where zinc supplements might now help. I gave it a try and this time it worked. While a 30mg daily dose was helpful, I found that a higher dose was much more effective and I took copper with it to avoid copper deficiency and took meals with it to avoid GI upset.

I also ate lots of zinc-rich foods and hoped that some day I would no longer need the zinc supplements, just as I no longer needed the Px meds. Strangely, the zinc-rich foods seemed to make no difference whatsoever in my acne, though I did eventually notice that my acne outbreaks seemed to be worse when I had eaten more carbs than usual. It was not until years later when I went VLC and then carnivorous that I noticed further improvement in my acne and discovered several weeks after I eliminated all plants from my diet that my acne was controlled to the point where I could give up the zinc supplements completely and remain clear of acne (I am forgetful, so there had been frequent instances where I forgot to take my zinc supplements and learned within a day or two that my acne exacerbated if I didn't continue taking zinc daily, and there would still be very small acne outbreaks now and then even while taking the zinc).

So for me supplements were no miracle cure, but some supplements, such as zinc, magnesium and potassium, did greatly reduce my symptoms. As always, your mileage may vary. The optimal situation is to find a diet that works for you and provides all your nutrients and develop your body's health to the point that it is absorbing nutrients efficiently enough so that you don't need any supplements other than maybe vitamin D (the best source of which is the sun, but most people work indoors these days).

Amazing nature photography of Mount Kenya, Africa - BBC wildlife
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIZc0xVGYag&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=C35A11617ECCA92F&index=1&playnext=2&playnext_from=SPL

At 2:39 in the video: "Forest animals like the bushbuck [and water buffalo, elephants, etc.] can't get enough sodium and potassium in their diet, so they need to visit special places where the salts are more concentrated."

The difficulty for modern humans is we've apparently lost our instinct for knowing when and how much to supplement, and one can throw other minerals out of balance if one takes a single mineral in exclusion of others and doesn't know how much to take.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #187 on: October 17, 2009, 03:12:27 am »
The optimal situation is to find a diet that works for you and provides all your nutrients and develop your body's health to the point that it is absorbing nutrients efficiently enough so that you don't need any supplements other than maybe vitamin D (the best source of which is the sun, but most people work indoors these days).

Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you take any supplements now? Vit D?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #188 on: October 17, 2009, 03:39:35 am »
You're welcome. Yes, I take Vitamin D (cod liver oil) and I just started taking some magnesium again, because my fecal output decreased to about 1/3 of what it was, just like Lex said it would, and I have started to get some dry/hard constipation again (although not as bad as prior to carnivore and without the mucus, cramps, reactive diarrhea and other associated problems I had while still eating plants). I figured it also might further improve my dental health.

While I was VLC I still had to take potassium and zinc in addition to the vitamin D and magnesium, because I would otherwise get muscle cramps in my feet and acne. On carnivore I no longer need potassium or zinc. The acne stays away without zinc or other treatments for the first time since it started 27 years ago.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #189 on: October 17, 2009, 05:21:41 pm »
The expensive piss argument is valid. I went in for a minimum 2-3 year phase pre-rawpalaeodiet when I went in very heavily indeed for supplements. This supplement-phase became extreme when I went in for the raw vegan/fruitarian diets as I was worried re the nutritional deficiency issue. I would consume vast amounts/megadoses of vitamin/mineral supplements which, in hindsight, did nothing for more specific problems related to deficiencies in those vitamins/minerals(I just got worse). And my urine would become differently coloured and more frequent  after consuming such pills, indicating that they were just being pissed away.  Oh, and I also took multiple herbal supplements(all heavily processed so were useless), along with unusual products like royal jelly and propolis(invariably heated so useless). In the end, out of desperation I was taking something like bteween 20 to 40 different supplements each day(1 to 3 tablets each time). Funnily enough, the only supplements which had any genuine(if short-term) effect were the Bach Flower and other homeopathic remedies.

Aajonus makes a claim that taking supplements gives one a fake 24-hour placebo-like effect and I concur as regards the supplements I took(other than the Bach Flower/Homeopathic  remedies) as I didn't experience that feeling during days when I forgot to take any supplements. However, as time went on, that fake 24-hour feel-good feeling did not obscure the fact that my health-problems were still very gradually declining(that is, I realised I was less healthy than I was before taking those supplements years before). Now, compare this to my experience on a RVAF diet where I had a remarkably fast recovery as soon as I cut out all dairy and otherwise went rawpalaeo, with deficiencies disappearing like clockwork.

In short, any processed supplement I view as a waste of time. Raw, fermented cod liver oil(and genuinely raw royal jelly), raw herbs and similiar unprocessed stuff are fine by me, though and have worked for me.

As regards the plants/antinutrients claim, it's rather dodgy. Sure, some wild animals do use clays to get rid of toxins from certain plants(for example David Attenborough's wildlife series showed parrots deliberately eating clay/kaolin shortly after eating a specific species of poisonous plant), but this is not applicable in all cases of plants.

"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline ys

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #190 on: October 17, 2009, 09:49:46 pm »
I was taking so called "Professional grade" supplements, supposedly the best thing out there. Standard mix, C, Bs, D, E, minerals, folate, and so on.  I was taking them for a while but did not notice any difference whatsoever except brightly yellow urine.  I stopped using them a while ago, but continued to take D on and off.  I'm inclining to stop D as well as I do not feel any difference.

No one really knows how much supplements we really need if any at all.  In my opinion all those guidelines were taken from thin air.  I speculate that all those studies that say you need increased intake of such and such to cure this and that are sponsored by the multi-billion dollar supplements industry.


Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #191 on: October 17, 2009, 10:28:57 pm »
Yellow urine must be from Vitamins B.

Folate levels are really low in Paleo Diet (if you on't eat liver daily).
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #192 on: October 18, 2009, 03:32:09 am »
The expensive piss argument is valid. I went in for a minimum 2-3 year phase pre-rawpalaeodiet when I went in very heavily indeed for supplements. ...
As far as your experience goes, that's apparently true, but for my experience and the experience of many other people I found it to be an overexaggeration--and I am more skeptical than most when it comes to supplements, having gotten a peak inside the supplement industry and seen some of its dirty laundry and having started from a position of seeing all supplements as expensive piss.

I explained in detail how I had been a skeptic like you but found through extensive experience, including testing myself by going off and back on supplements and with blind testing (yes, I'm a geek, I know), that the effects were real. Do you really believe that physicians prescribe intravenous and oral nutrients to severely deficient patients despite no benefit whatsoever? Also, if supplements have no effects whatsoever, then why do the critics warn about the side effects of megadoses? Obviously they have effects, the only question is whether they are beneficial or not and in what cases. The medical and research communities already generally accept that SOME supplements are beneficial for severely deficient patients, there is only significant disagreement over whether patients with less severe deficiencies benefit from supplementation. If your consensus argument has any validity at all, then it would apply to SOME supplements as well and not just Maillard products.

I should also explain that I believe that ideally we wouldn't need any supplements, including the fermented cod liver oil you take, but would instead get all our nutrients from diet, sunlight, etc. However, modern living does not make that practicable for most people and every raw and Paleo diet guru I've seen advocates at least one supplement--as do you. I think that most people who have been doing the RPD for a month or more should be able to get by on no more supplements than naturally fermented cod liver oil (and even that is only required if they don't spend most of every day in the outdoors), but that is a guesstimate based on our experiences here and certain people will likely have more severe deficiencies that take longer to resolve. I'm just positing a guess, not trying to speak for others.
Quote
In short, any processed supplement I view as a waste of time. Raw, fermented cod liver oil(and genuinely raw royal jelly), raw herbs and similiar unprocessed stuff are fine by me, though and have worked for me.
So you don't view all supplements as expensive piss, just processed supplements, correct? If so, then we basically agree, as I never claimed that all supplements work. I also believe that in most cases where supplements have been taken for a long time that this is an indicator that the person's diet is not yet optimized for their needs, and I suspect that you agree with me on this too.

Quote
As regards the plants/antinutrients claim, it's rather dodgy. Sure, some wild animals do use clays to get rid of toxins from certain plants(for example David Attenborough's wildlife series showed parrots deliberately eating clay/kaolin shortly after eating a specific species of poisonous plant), but this is not applicable in all cases of plants.
Another irrelevant straw man. I never said that all wild animals use clays or that any wild animals use clays for toxins in "all cases of plants."

I don't see how it's dodgy if some wild animals do it. That's like saying the RPD is dodgy because only some people do it. Of particular relevance to humans is the fact that all wild primates that eat heavy amounts of herbivorous foods (such as the mountain gorillas that eat lots of leaves) also regularly consume clays, charcoal or other detoxicants. The other wild animals who tend to consume detoxicants most often are also those that eat diets heaviest in antinutrient-rich plants, like seeds in the example of the parrots that you gave. Fruits and meats do not appear to be nearly as rich in antinutrients as other plant foods like greens, seeds, nuts and legumes, so wild frugivores and carnivores do not tend to regularly eat clays, AFAIK, or at least not as often. Even omnivorous animals who eat some fruits and meats also consume clays if they eat lots of herbivorous foods--for example, chimpanzees during the season that they eat lots of leaves.

There are reportedly still more benefits to geophagy (clay eating) beyond detoxification and mineral supplementation. For example, clay may trigger antimalarial medicinal benefits from the plant, Trichilia rubescens, and Montmorillonite may even have played a role in the development of life on planet earth (see "More on medical geophagy in chimps: montmorillonite clay and the origins of life," http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2008/02/more_on_medical_geophagy_in_ch.php).

While frugivorous diets don't have the high levels of antinutrients that herbivorous diets do, excess frugivory does pose another problem for wild chimps: dental caries...

"Chimpanzees, which eat far more sugary fruit than howler monkeys, suffer from both tooth decay and gum disease. To cope with this ailment, they chew on antibacterial barks—which local people use to keep teeth healthy—and inspect and clean each other’s teeth." (Wild Health, by Cindy Engel, 2002, p. 89)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 03:39:34 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #193 on: October 18, 2009, 03:56:32 am »
So you don't view all supplements as expensive piss, just processed supplements, correct? If so, then we basically agree, as I never claimed that all supplements work. I also believe that in most cases where supplements have been taken for a long time that this is an indicator that the person's diet is not yet optimized for their needs, and I suspect that you agree with me on this too.

This is a classic flawed argument, the only so-called  "supplements" I accept are raw and unprocessed, like the raw royal jelly and the raw, fermented cod liver oil. The very fact that they are not processed makes them a "food" not a "supplement".Also, technically speaking, I don't "need" them as such, I only use them, because, every now and then, I'm forced to eat/drink unpleasant non-rawpalaeo stuff and the cod liver oil makes up for that.

Quote
Another irrelevant straw man. I never said that all wild animals use clays or that any wild animals use clays for toxins in "all cases of plants."

Again, as in the text below that comment, you are certainly implying that it's commonplace for plant-eating creatures to eat clay, whereas, as I pointed out, this applies generally only to specific plant-species consumed, not all or even most of them.
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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #194 on: October 18, 2009, 07:42:19 am »
If you don't call raw royal jelly and raw fermented cod liver oil supplements, what do you call them? In other words, for the purposes of discussion, how do you distinguish them from other foods? It's difficult to discuss them if we don't have a name for this special category of foods.

Quote
every now and then, I'm forced to eat/drink unpleasant non-rawpalaeo stuff and the cod liver oil makes up for that.
Do you know what your vitamin D level is and what do you feel is an approximately healthy level, if any? Is sunlight required to achieve sufficient levels of vitamin D, or is a regular, non-supplemented diet sufficient? If diet is sufficient, which foods do you find provide what you view as the necessary levels of vitamin D?

Quote
Again, as in the text below that comment, you are certainly implying that it's commonplace for plant-eating creatures to eat clay, whereas, as I pointed out, this applies generally only to specific plant-species consumed, not all or even most of them.
Please read what I wrote again. I'm not going to respond to any more of these straw men. I can tolerate a couple misrepresentations of what I wrote, but not a pattern of misrepresenting both my words and the words of others here. Your statement is irrelevant to what I actually wrote.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #195 on: October 18, 2009, 06:01:03 pm »
If you don't call raw royal jelly and raw fermented cod liver oil supplements, what do you call them? In other words, for the purposes of discussion, how do you distinguish them from other foods? It's difficult to discuss them if we don't have a name for this special category of foods.

I just refer to them as a food. After all, if I'd lived in the days of my Viking ancestors, I would have been consuming fermented cod livers stright from a barrel or take raw royal jelly straight from a hive, and wouldn't have seen them as "supplements". Incidentally, I  recognise that some people may have managed to benefit from mass-supplementation (of artificial vitamins/minerals) due to massive deficiencies gained on a cooked diet, it's just that, long-term, and in most cases short-term, I've yet to see them as being useful in any way by comparison to raw foods.
Quote
Do you know what your vitamin D level is and what do you feel is an approximately healthy level, if any? Is sunlight required to achieve sufficient levels of vitamin D, or is a regular, non-supplemented diet sufficient? If diet is sufficient, which foods do you find provide what you view as the necessary levels of vitamin D?

I'm not concerned re the vitamin D issue. I eat so much in the way of raw wild shellfish(oysters, scallops, lobster/mussels etc.) that I'm sure I'm getting enough(even if I weren't to eat raw cod liver oil as well). That said, I always feel even better when I'm exposed to the sun in the summer(but that could be due to the sea-air, being exposed to Nature etc.) Oh, re vitamin/mineral levels:- I've never gone in for self-analysis re testing urine or bloof-pressure etc. I find that most of the science of the human body is still so vague and not properly understood, that I don't see the point behind measuring such details. In the end, I can only go by feel.
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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #196 on: October 19, 2009, 05:09:31 am »
Yuri,

I heard your voice again on the Aajonus show at OneRadioNetwork.
Have you tried Aajonus' advice to eat a protein food every 5 hours?
That sounds interesting.
I'm trying it beginning today.
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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #197 on: October 19, 2009, 07:55:19 am »
I just refer to them as a food.
Yes, but how do we distinguish those special foods from your other foods? In other words, you eat those foods for a special reason, to offset the damage from cheating. For the purposes of discussion and simplicity, I call these special-purpose foods like fermented cod liver oil "supplements" and I don't see "supplements" as being restricted to processed supplements. After all, even the Vikings didn't eat just the cod livers and discard the rest of the fish.

I take cod liver oil when I'm not getting lots of sun or not eating lots of wild shellfish and fatty fish. When I do this, I consider it supplementation--even if the cod liver oil is unheated. It's a special food, separated from the original whole source and used for a special purpose. If you have a better term, please share it. I agree that using supplements that come closest to being wild food are best, if and when necessary, but "food" doesn't distinguish the special purpose of these foods and makes discussion nearly impossible. Simply for the purpose of facilitating discussion could you be a bit more specific than "food," please? Heck, even Dr. Ron's calls their products, like their fermented cod liver oil, "supplements": "The ingredients for all of our supplements come primarily from the United States, New Zealand and Europe."

Perhaps we'll have to invent a new word, like "foodlements" (someone else thought of that before I did http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=foodlements&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=59681ffd38a8e39f :D ) or something, if supplements is unacceptable?

Quote
if I'd lived in the days of my Viking ancestors, I would have been consuming fermented cod livers stright from a barrel or take raw royal jelly straight from a hive, and wouldn't have seen them as "supplements".
Yes, but we don't live in the Viking days, we live today and many of us live in urban, land-locked areas, so many make some compromises.

Quote
I'm not concerned re the vitamin D issue. I eat so much in the way of raw wild shellfish(oysters, scallops, lobster/mussels etc.)....
But aren't wild shellfish and fatty fish seasonal? Do you take the fermented cod liver oil outside of the wild shellfish seasons?

BTW, do you have any idea how much wild shellfish is necessary to avoid needing to take unheated fermented cod liver oil? I eat wild clams but don't know how much vitamin D I'm getting out of it. I work indoors and live in a northern region, so my guess would be that my vitamin D levels are low when I'm not eating wild shellfish or fatty fish--probably even during the summer.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 08:02:07 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #198 on: October 19, 2009, 05:21:29 pm »
Yuri,

I heard your voice again on the Aajonus show at OneRadioNetwork.
Have you tried Aajonus' advice to eat a protein food every 5 hours?
That sounds interesting.
I'm trying it beginning today.

Well, yes it was me…

He actually believes that “blood proteins drop after 5 hours... red cells become catabolistic... you consume from two to four tbsp of your blood every night...”

And he advised me "to sip raw milk and eat lots of raw eggs to recover from MONO MEAL DIET..."

I explained in my earlier post why I preferred two meals regimen to frequent eating. To my opinion the best indicator for a healthy person when to eat is HUNGER. If I followed this rule in the past I would have never exhausted my adrenals in the first place. I remember that I have been permanently hungry from the day one since starting intermittent fasting. I was hoping that I would adapt but sadly for me it had never happened.

After having done with IF I have been looking for ways to alleviate my insatiable hunger. Much to my astonishment more than a year of eating frequent meals, surplus calories and massive amounts of raw fat have helped me little if at all. Hypoglycaemia is one of the possible causes for incessant hunger. The symptoms of adrenal axis stress and cortisol imbalance are very similar to hypoglycemia and are typically characterized by: fibromyalgia, shakiness or lightheadedness, lightheadedness upon standing, constant hunger, frequent heart pounding, anxiety, anxiety attack, panic attack, depression (describes me precisely). Then there is a suggestion that when the adrenal glands are exhausted and can't produce enough cortisol, the low cortisol levels can't effectively antagonize insulin and thus the blood sugar plummets below levels to maintain well-being.

The typical nutritional approach for adrenal stress is a low sugar, complex carbohydrate diet similar to that of hypoglycemia. In general it all comes to the same thing: eting low-carb, eating moderate protein, waiting 5-6 hours between meals. You can also read these two great articles: More on Insulin Control and Reactive Hypoglycemia

Personally I believe that eating two or three meals a day is an ultimate solution. IF is a fantastic plan also but it is not for everyone.

But always remember, HUNGER is your worst enemy. Keep clear of it.
It’s time to Eat Like An Animal!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #199 on: October 19, 2009, 07:04:21 pm »
I take cod liver oil when I'm not getting lots of sun or not eating lots of wild shellfish and fatty fish. When I do this, I consider it supplementation--even if the cod liver oil is unheated. It's a special food, separated from the original whole source and used for a special purpose. If you have a better term, please share it. I agree that using supplements that come closest to being wild food are best, if and when necessary, but "food" doesn't distinguish the special purpose of these foods and makes discussion nearly impossible. Simply for the purpose of facilitating discussion could you be a bit more specific than "food," please? Heck, even Dr. Ron's calls their products, like their fermented cod liver oil, "supplements": "The ingredients for all of our supplements come primarily from the United States, New Zealand and Europe."

Perhaps we'll have to invent a new word, like "foodlements" (someone else thought of that before I did http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=foodlements&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=59681ffd38a8e39f :D ) or something, if supplements is unacceptable?
Yes, but we don't live in the Viking days, we live today and many of us live in urban, land-locked areas, so many make some compromises.

Just because we don't live in Viking days doesn't mean we shouldn't emulate them as closely as is feasible.
Quote
But aren't
n't wild shellfish and fatty fish seasonal? Do you take the fermented cod liver oil outside of the wild shellfish seasons?

Yes, they're seasonal but when I can't eat decent raw mussels I'll turn to raw wildcaught oysters and so on, so , taken as a whole, raw fatty fish and raw shellfish are available all year round.
Quote
BTW, do you have any idea how much wild shellfish is necessary to avoid needing to take unheated fermented cod liver oil? I eat wild clams but don't know how much vitamin D I'm getting out of it. I work indoors and live in a northern region, so my guess would be that my vitamin D levels are low when I'm not eating wild shellfish or fatty fish--probably even during the summer.


I eat 20 extra-large raw wildcaught oysters usually once a fortnight, with sometimes other shellfish added on such as bags of raw mussels, raw lobster etc. I reckon that's enough, I mean shellfish are supposed to be reasonably high in vitamin D vis-av-si other raw foods.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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