Author Topic: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...  (Read 13778 times)

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Offline OnyxPoet

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(Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« on: June 26, 2010, 10:54:26 pm »
Hello again all, this thread is regarding Ketosis and Ketones So if you are not interested I'll bid you a polite farewell for now :).

One thing i have noted is that when people first enter Ketosis ( not Ketoacidosis which is Very different ) they end up becoming very sluggish or tired and unable to workout as hard or long as they used to and then decide that it's not for them. I think what it has to do with is modernization causing people to "trim the fat", in terms of what's really causing the root problem here.

The point of Ketosis is to burn fat, over carbs, for energy and depending on Ketones over glucose. However, people don't do the math right and till this day it still confuses me. Though it varies from person to person the rule of thumb is that LEAN MEAT is often very deficient in fat, although heavy in Protein. The problem with that is that your main energy source is Fat, as protein can only be broken down into glucose and only 58% of it can at that.

You can only use so much protein at a time though, before causing horrible distress to your body, which inevitably shows up over time if you don't get the balance correct.

Now let's get an example, you get a relatively fatty cut of beef and notice that the protein to fat ratio is something like we'll say ... 2 to 1. But read on, if you look at the CALORIC CONTENT, then read the Calories which are from Fat and you will see the TRUE ratio. Little amounts of fat are High in calories Because fats are VERY ENERGY DENSE so a little bit goes a long way.

 However, if attempting to achieve the benefit of Ketones over Glucose, Too much protein and not enough fat signals your body to make the protein into glucose, rather then focusing on its Nutrient capacity instead.

Therefore on a Caloric scale if one were to be in Ketosis, generally gained from low to zero carb lifestyles, one would need a Caloric content of at least about 60% from fat. If trying to build muscle you would not change the ratio, but you would only add in more calories always making sure to consume your FAT WITH your PROTEIN so as to make the protein more usable for what YOU want instead of Fuel in the form of Glucose.

Bottom line is, in the long run, Extra lean is counterproductive to Ketosis. The high caloric fat intake is what gives you untold amounts of expendable energy. You dont get nearly as tired if you watch your numbers and eat enough caloric fat in at LEAST a 60% fat - 37% protein, 3% carb ratio on a purely CALORIC scale; Or cut ALL the carbs and up the protein. This is also why, if you adapt an extra lean lifestyle, its important to have Other sources of fat like bone marrow, suet, straight up fat, Raw butter, virgin coconut products, etc. etc.

I posted this because I feel so bad for the bodybuilders who are dead tired and drained relying so heavily on protein and not enough on fat. I have experience with Ketosis and bodybuilding and I have trained with others who do it as well. Once they understand this and add this small tweak to their diet they almost Always notice an energy boost and higher capability. Be well all, and comment if you like :) farewell for now.

Edit: I wasn't saying the only factor in bodybuilding or exercise of any kind was just the caloric ratio. It indeed varies from person to person, and it takes the body, depending on the body, time to adapt to turning fat into energy. Its nowhere near as readily simple as I may have made it seem, I was only giving a general rule of thumb :).

With that said, it seems like first time bodybuilders in Ketosis would benefit from starting with a slightly increased protein to fat ratio for the glucose, and then slowly up the fat to overcome it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 07:22:09 pm by TylerDurden »
I\'m a hardcore perfectionist about most things, so don\'t be Too shocked if i hit the edit button 50 times :P ...

Offline Josh

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 12:45:01 am »
When I first started I tried 80/20 and 70/30 ratios and was still fatigued and couldn't do it. Some people need to adapt to it.

People have said on here you need to develop more mitochondria in cells in order to use the energy from fat. I know since I trained at altitude and got really fit it's been a lot easier (both make mitochondria) but still not on top form...sticking to the diet gets easier over time.

Maybe some people are very fit already, or just genetically more able to adapt...but it's not straightforward 'add more fat have enough energy'

Offline OnyxPoet

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 05:37:16 am »
OH most definitely, I totally agree. As i said it varies from person to person and i was Generalizing, because not everyone is doing it incorrectly. The fact is, it takes a while for our bodies to get good at changing fat to energy. I wasn't ignoring that fact, but i see now that i should have posted it. My apologies.

But yes, your body changes based on, your body, but i was just offering a general rule of thumb and sticking to it and hanging in there is all you can do until you adapt correctly.

Edit: clarified in my first post, Thanks for pointing that out Josh :)
Also, even though i understand the need to adapt, you are saying Mitochondria is whats responsible for the change? Whenever i hear Mitochondria all i think about is Parasite Eve, but thats beside the point.

Thats interesting Josh ... so wait, let me see. If many of us are already adapted to using Carbs for energy ... Are the Carb babies better off on carbs, or do you think once they finally adapt physically, that they would have more abundance from fat instead? How long have You been training on Ketosis? And if its been awhile, are you truly still not in top form?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 05:49:35 am by OnyxPoet »
I\'m a hardcore perfectionist about most things, so don\'t be Too shocked if i hit the edit button 50 times :P ...

Offline Josh

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 08:10:49 am »
Well as I see it, you don't adapt to carbs, you lose the adaption to fat. Like if you don't run, you get unfit, if you throw carbs at your system all the time, you lose the ability to get energy from fat and become 'keto unfit' Maybe someone else could say more. So no, you're not better off on carbs...BUT a realistic diet you can stick to beats an ideal diet that you have to break after a couple of weeks. So I'd say 'carb bunnies' like I was eat a fair bit of carbs if you need to and get extremely fit, then see how much you can take it down.

As for myself, I can get through a day now but I still don't have the abundance of energy that I did on a moderate carb standard diet and my libido is not good unless I overindulge on booze or fruit.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 04:07:11 pm by Josh »

Offline Fermenter Zym

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 01:26:05 pm »
Thank you for this post. I have been wondering about ketosis and fat and protein ratios. I appreciate it.

zym.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 07:27:14 pm »
While some people do make mistakes re not eating enough fat, that doesn't explain why all the successful RZCers report some form of "adjustment-period" in which they feel fatigue etc. until they eventually adapt. Then there are others like me who consumed plenty of fats but whose health started deteriorating rapidly at a certain point. It has been suggested that ZC diets exert a bit more pressure on one's glandular system, which might explain my own spectacular failure on RZC diets after 3 weeks or so. There's no way I wasn't eating enough fats at the time, as I was gulping down huge gobs of raw suet and raw marrow throughout  the experiments, and not focusing on lean muscle-meats, either.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 12:13:43 pm »
Raw Zero Carb is a bit extreme by all standards and I doubt that many people whom lived their formative years building a high tolerance to a high carb diet could do well on a zero carb diet. I don't do well on zero carbs either, and after the second day on no carbs I go though some type of withdrawal and have to eat at least a minimal amount. I will use coconut butter, lemon water, a few berries or a tomatoes to satisfy my body's carb  requirements. I have been maintaining 30 to 50 carbs a day for some time.

I think instead of going into zero carb , people who are interested in some of the benefits of going into ketosis should begin to replace carb foods with more fatty meats gradually, and eventually they will reach a threshold of what is the lowest carb level they feel optimal . Then after maintaining a low carb threshold for long enough perhaps permanent keto adaption can make you into a fat burning mitochondrial energy producing powerhouse.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 02:24:45 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: (Ketosis) It seems many people are missing the point ...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 08:20:56 pm »
While some people do make mistakes re not eating enough fat, that doesn't explain why all the successful RZCers report some form of "adjustment-period" in which they feel fatigue etc.
My experience was the opposite of those folks'. I had adjustment no period at all to RZC, experiencing benefits from day one, and my chronic constipation even cleared up for a week or so, but then it gradually started getting worse again and didn't resolve on its own like it did for Lex Rooker. I found that a softer, easier-to-digest diet helped some with that. Other than that I didn't have any problems with RZC or RVLC, but it was only meant to be a temporary experiment for me, with the hope of being able to eventually find some carbs I could tolerate and see if I could find a way to improve my carb intolerance issue. I've never had a problem with eggs or liver, so I added those carb-containing (glycogen) foods back in first.
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