Author Topic: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??  (Read 86794 times)

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Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #200 on: August 02, 2010, 03:18:28 am »
Correctamundo! You think like me. :D

Oh, that's reassuring.  Thanks.  I was beginning to think I was getting paranoid!  :)

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The profit motive (which includes public and secret contributions to politicians as well as ordinary sales margins) is still priority #1 in the modern world

And the only way we can ever change this is if enough people 'wise up'!  But, the tools they employ are seemingly too powerful and too ingrained (mental/physical weakening of populace via food, water, vaccines etc, TV, wage-slave lifestyle etc)

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I posted in another thread a listing of lamb blood being extremely low in carbs, so the blood angle seems to be a dead end as far as carbs are concerned. If anything, Paleo blood consumption would argue for higher protein consumption rather than carbs.

Oh great.  Well done.  I'll try to find that other post.  Unfortunately, that sounds like disappointing news and perhaps further indication that this 5% calories by carbs argument is not viable.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline klowcarb

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #201 on: August 02, 2010, 03:19:32 am »
So far the no-need-for-carbs side is winning (though I'm not saying that my experience applies to anyone else and I do wonder if finding carbs I can handle in larger quantities would enable me to bulk up more). I haven't noticed any benefits from carb intake of any sort. However, some carbs don't appear to cause me any noticeable problems (namely, animal carbs from liver and eggs and the small amounts of carbs that nonstarchy veg like cabbage and ginger contain).

 :) :) :D :D ;D ;D

Offline Guittarman03

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #202 on: August 15, 2010, 05:10:47 am »
You guys have left out one significant source of carbs that aren't plant derived...

Bugs!

I know gross.  I tried to grow crickets once and failed, but I have eaten them.  Crunchy.  Add some seasoned salt and you've pretty much got popcorn.

I tend to think insects would have been eaten often in paleo days, but some people on the forum would disagree. 

Probably somewhat impractical, but hey, it's always an option.
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #203 on: August 15, 2010, 05:35:04 am »
I'm aware that insects were eaten in Paleo days, but other than honey ants, what evidence is there that any of them contain substantial carb %'s?

At this link they don't even bother to mention the carbs in insects: http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm. Perhaps because the carb levels are insignificant?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hans89

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2010, 02:18:04 am »
Hans' argument is not scientific but psychological. He was doing great on very low carb, and in fact, his body rewarded him by making him sick when he ate junk, i.e. carbs. But he WANTED to be "normal" and eat "normal" people food, which is of course, rubbish. Since he WANTED to eat these "normal" foods that make others look fat, skinny fat and gross, he justified a NEED for carbs. Thus he justified that he NEEDED carbs so that he could tolerate the junk when he ate it. That makes sense. If you want to eat junk and be mediocre, might as well eat that which makes you mediocre. You are, after all, what you eat.  :D

Think about these points:
Vegans feel crappy when they eat meat after abstaining from it for a long time - Is that their body rewarding them by making them sick from eating "junk", i.e. meat? Or maybe they lose the ability to digest wholesome food because they don't eat it for too long?
About fat, skinny fat and gross - look at durianrider... he eats nothing but carbs. Or look at the Kitavans.
About mediocrity - I fail to see how making carbs make anyone mediocre. Care to give an example?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #205 on: August 22, 2010, 04:41:08 am »
....I bought one recently made by a guy local to me here in Norfolk, England.  It's a brilliant device and fits onto most doorways without requiring any fixings.  I don't know if he ships Internationally but you can check it out here: http://www.powertrainer.co.uk/
I put in an order today and noticed this after I placed my order: "Note to non-mainland U.K and ROI customers - due to the size and weight of the packages, we are charged extra by our courier to deliver to non-mainland U.K and ROI addresses. This amount extra is £6.00 and you should select the appropriate option from the drop down menu above the buy now button." So they do ship outside the UK, but I didn't notice this drop down menu on the Paypal order page.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #206 on: September 01, 2010, 05:17:48 am »
Glad to hear it Phil.  I hope you managed to sort out the little ordering detail.  I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the PowerTrainer and how you get on with it.

BTW, on the topic of insulin spikes, I still haven't done the honey blood sugar test as I'm reluctant to eat any honey at the moment following recent excruciating teeth problems.  With my 12 year old daughter spending a week with me in her school holidays I've regrettably eaten too many foods usually regimentally avoided.  This has included small amounts of fruit, honey and cooked restaurant meals.  The consequence has been extreme tooth problems culminating in a dentist visit today and an unavoidable short course of antibiotics.  On a positive note, he did actually say that the receding gums I've previously mentioned here were not that bad!  Perhaps some progress!  :)

How are things with you now on the subject of including some carbs in your diet?
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #207 on: September 01, 2010, 06:12:31 am »
We always have some CLOVE OIL at home for tooth pain.
Bought mine at the Indian grocery.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #208 on: September 01, 2010, 06:41:42 am »
Yes, same here gs.  It's a powerful analgesic.  I got through an entire bottle during this particular episode but, unfortunately, it wasn't even touching the pain after a while. 

I hate the thought of using antibiotics and wonder at the possibilities of leaving any such bacterial infections to 'do their necessary cleaning'.  But, I also weigh up such thoughts with the argument that a short 5 day course followed by sufficient probiotics may actually be less harmful than the pain and stress I've been suffering.  I'm beginning to think that the damage which has been caused to my teeth by poor dietary choices in my youth and subsequent dentistry damage is always going to cause me problems no matter how good my diet has been and continues to be.  It has made me vulnerable to even the slightest deviation.  It seems that perfect health is difficult to attain following previous assault and sometimes one is going to be forced to compromise one's rigid beliefs.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #209 on: September 01, 2010, 06:51:17 am »
Glad to hear it Phil.  I hope you managed to sort out the little ordering detail.  I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the PowerTrainer and how you get on with it.
They canceled my order without explanation--probably because there was no drop-down option to add S&H for foreign orders like their website claimed. I emailed twice asking for instructions on how to order from USA, but didn't receive a reply. They apparently don't want my business!

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On a positive note, he did actually say that the receding gums I've previously mentioned here were not that bad!  Perhaps some progress!  :)
If you haven't already done so, check out Stephen Guyenet's dental advice (which focuses on getting plenty of fat soluble nutrients--especially A, D3 and K2--and minerals).

Quote
How are things with you now on the subject of including some carbs in your diet?
Pretty lousy. In all my experimentation the only carby food that I have fared decently on is wild Main blueberries (and I seem to do better if I eat a lot of animal fat with them, a la Yupik Eskimo Akutaq); and even with those I have to limit my intake somewhat to avoid BG spikes.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #210 on: September 01, 2010, 07:00:08 am »
Let's assume for a moment that Matt Stone and Danny Roddy are correct that humans are able to digest cooked starches well and benefit from them healthwise. Let's also assume that Tyler is right about cooking only going back 250,000 years or so (or that Wrangham's 1.9 million years is not enough time for humans to have mostly adapted to eating cooked starches, which is not far-fetched given that giant pandas haven't fully adapted to bamboo leaves and roots after over 6 million years). This scenario would seem to suggest that there was a starchy raw precursor food that hominids ate before cooking starch that could have enabled major adaptation to starches before the advent of cooking.

So I thought about what raw foods could have provided starch before cooking. This is all I've been able to come up with so far, which is not very convincing:

Stone Age food / Today's equivalent

> Fermented grass in animal stomach contents / Small amounts of sauerkraut and other fermented (aka cultured) raw veggies
> Roots that are edible raw / Carrots, onions, radish, horseradish, parsnip, ginger, garlic, ...

Can anyone add any starchy Paleo foods that are edible raw to this list?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #211 on: September 01, 2010, 07:32:46 am »
Can anyone add any starchy Paleo foods that are edible raw to this list?

Unripe fruit. Most wild fruits have more starch and seeds and less sugar than store bought relatives. Wild bananas, for example, are very starchy little red fruits that are eating by animals well before they can fully ripen. So if you ate them in the wild most likely you'd be eating a decent amount of starch.

Offline klowcarb

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #212 on: September 01, 2010, 08:18:33 am »
Pretty lousy. In all my experimentation the only carby food that I have fared decently on is wild Main blueberries (and I seem to do better if I eat a lot of animal fat with them, a la Yupik Eskimo Akutaq); and even with those I have to limit my intake somewhat to avoid BG spikes.

Glad to hear the toxins don't agree with you.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #213 on: September 01, 2010, 09:09:31 am »
Let's assume for a moment that Matt Stone and Danny Roddy are correct that humans are able to digest cooked starches well and benefit from them healthwise. Let's also assume that Tyler is right about cooking only going back 250,000 years or so (or that Wrangham's 1.9 million years is not enough time for humans to have mostly adapted to eating cooked starches, which is not far-fetched given that giant pandas haven't fully adapted to bamboo leaves and roots after over 6 million years). This scenario would seem to suggest that there was a starchy raw precursor food that hominids ate before cooking starch that could have enabled major adaptation to starches before the advent of cooking.

So I thought about what raw foods could have provided starch before cooking. This is all I've been able to come up with so far, which is not very convincing:

Stone Age food / Today's equivalent

> Fermented grass in animal stomach contents / Small amounts of sauerkraut and other fermented (aka cultured) raw veggies
> Roots that are edible raw / Carrots, onions, radish, horseradish, parsnip, ginger, garlic, ...

Can anyone add any starchy Paleo foods that are edible raw to this list?

Yes I can.
Yon ate some of this with me too.
It was a root crop, but not a carrot.
It was called a YACON.



and



absolutely raw, absolutely no cooking.

----------

Another are many varieties of Bananas are more starchy than sugary, especially if ripened on the tree and picked and eaten.


These SABA Bananas are super abundant in my country.  There would have been a never ending supply of saba bananas for paleo man.  He'd be sick of it and go hunting for meat.

Also guavas, ripened on tree, picked and eaten immediately.


Raw corn, freshly picked and eaten immediately.


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Offline Guittarman03

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #214 on: September 03, 2010, 09:08:44 am »
100 grams of cricket contains: 121 calories, 12.9 grams of protein, 5.5 g. of fat, 5.1 g. of carbohydrates, 75.8 mg. calcium, 185.3 mg. of phosphorous, 9.5 mg. of iron, 0.36 mg. of thiamin, 1.09 mg. of riboflavin, and 3.10 mg. of niacin

http://www.onlyinternet.net/preceptor/rm118/advbio/2007-8/insectlab07.htm

So I guess it's not alot, but its more than insignificant.
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #215 on: September 16, 2010, 04:20:14 am »
They canceled my order without explanation--probably because there was no drop-down option to add S&H for foreign orders like their website claimed. I emailed twice asking for instructions on how to order from USA, but didn't receive a reply. They apparently don't want my business!

Really?!  That's incredible!  I realise that you may've decided against purchase now due to poor service but if you'd like me to get one for you and forward it on myself it's no problem - just let me know.

Quote
If you haven't already done so, check out Stephen Guyenet's dental advice (which focuses on getting plenty of fat soluble nutrients--especially A, D3 and K2--and minerals).

Thanks, yes I have read that.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think it's obtaining and assimilation of the minerals that's aggravating my problem due to limited foods sources and poor absorption due to previous health problems.  I've got A, D3, K1, MkIV K2 etc covered (assuming they're sufficiently assimilated!) but am still struggling for sufficient Ca/Mg sources - hence my other post about dried herbs.  Of course, I realise that dried herbs are probably non-paleo but my ability to obtain the required insects, bones and seafood is limited.

Quote
Pretty lousy. In all my experimentation the only carby food that I have fared decently on is wild Main blueberries (and I seem to do better if I eat a lot of animal fat with them, a la Yupik Eskimo Akutaq); and even with those I have to limit my intake somewhat to avoid BG spikes.

Remind me - are you doing ok in general on ZC/VLC?  Is the carb requirement, for you, purely due to the recent talk (Stone, Harris, Roddy et al) of eating the arbitrary 50g carbs to keep out of starvation mode?

So I thought about what raw foods could have provided starch before cooking....Can anyone add any starchy Paleo foods that are edible raw to this list?

Kyle and gs made useful suggestions I suspect.  gs, are those yacon similar to sweet potato?  Are you aware of any anti-nutrients they may contain?  Sweet potato can be eaten raw but with toxins such as trypsin inhibitor it's not necessarily a good idea long-term. 

Of course, there's still the potential for fresh blood that we discussed previously too.  It seems that insects are not signifiant with respect to carbs unless one considers eating 500g - 1kg of them per day.  I see them as having provided more as a source of protein and minerals.

I'm still not convinced the assumptions are correct.

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #216 on: September 16, 2010, 10:01:12 am »
Really?!  That's incredible!  I realise that you may've decided against purchase now due to poor service but if you'd like me to get one for you and forward it on myself it's no problem - just let me know.

Thanks, yes I have read that.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think it's obtaining and assimilation of the minerals that's aggravating my problem due to limited foods sources and poor absorption due to previous health problems.  I've got A, D3, K1, MkIV K2 etc covered (assuming they're sufficiently assimilated!) but am still struggling for sufficient Ca/Mg sources - hence my other post about dried herbs.  Of course, I realise that dried herbs are probably non-paleo but my ability to obtain the required insects, bones and seafood is limited.
Organ meats all contain calcium too, with tripe containing a significant amount, and marrow some unknown amount. There's also Dr. Ron's bone meal that is supposed to be high quality, but I have no way of testing it. My favorite source of calcium is dried salted mackerel from a local Asian food store. I like the crunchewiness. I've never noticed any benefits from any form of calcium, though, and some forms constipate me worse. However, I've read here and there that Stone Agers ate a lot of calcium, but rarely is it said what they ate to give them the calcium. Fiber and carbs can bind with calcium and block its absorption, so if you aren't eating a lot of fiber and carbs your calcium needs are probably much less than a SAD eater.

Quote
Remind me - are you doing ok in general on ZC/VLC?
I'm doing VLC and doing OK, though even the small amount of plant carbs (around 1-4% of calories) I'm eating does give me mild negative symptoms--much less severe than when I was eating plentiful carbs, of course. To take one symptom as an example: when I first cut out gluten and went cooked Paleo, the dead skin on my back, shins, eyebrows and bottoms of my feet decreased substantially and I happened to be eating fairly low carb, because carby "Paleo" and semi-Paleo foods like winter squash and tubers and big fruits like melons were too much bother and too large and time consuming for a single person who didn't love them to bother with. Then I was influenced into eating more plant carbs like fruits and winter squashes by loved ones, thinking it was safe to do so based on the writings of Cordain and others. Unfortunately my health relapsed and the dead skin returned. Now, the dead skin on the bottom of my feet is completely gone and most of the dead skin elsewhere is gone as well.

I still have constipation, some continued hairloss, underweight and undermuscled.

Quote
Is the carb requirement, for you, purely due to the recent talk (Stone, Harris, Roddy et al) of eating the arbitrary 50g carbs to keep out of starvation mode?
No, I was doing it before I read their writings on it. I didn't know that Harris had even wrote about starvation mode. I think I remember him saying that eating around 5% of calories as carbs is more efficient than eating ZC. However, I find when my plant carb intake gets above around 3-4% I start getting negative symptoms--and they aren't new symptoms, like many carb advocates try to claim. I've had the symptoms for a long time, they improved immediately when I started cutting back on carbs from around the 30-40% of calories range, they continued to improve with each incremental decrease in plant carb intake, and they worsen within less than 24 hours if I add back in too much plant carbs--and the symptoms quickly resolve again if I once again cut back on the carbs.

Like Lex I don't think that he or I and some other people have any carb requirement. I'm basically experimenting because I haven't reached Lex's level of success yet and my constipation is not resolving as quickly as his did, IIRC.

I'm neither a ZC zealot nor a fruit fanatic. I abhor zealotry in general, but if it turns out that only an extreme diet works for me in the longer run, then so be it.

Quote
Kyle and gs made useful suggestions I suspect.  gs, are those yacon similar to sweet potato?
I've been keeping my eye out for tubers and roots that are edible raw since before Matt Stone got popular. I finished my ZC experiment and started experimenting with adding back in various carbs before Danny became enamored of Matt, though Danny's and Stephen Guyenet's discussions of the subject have added to my interest. So far all I've found is daikon radish root, and it's good enough to stay on my menu. I haven't read much of Matt's stuff beyond learning what he was advocating and what was posted in this forum because his experience has been almost opposite mine in nearly every way and thus of little relevance to me. Danny at least does well on lots of meat, animal fat and pemmican, like I do. Matt gets warmer from eating starches and carbs whereas I get colder on carbs and instead get warmer on animal fats. Matt apparently can eat wheat whereas wheat is the worst of all foods for me. In these and other matters, my experience comes much closer to that of you, Lex, Dr. Harris, Michael Eades, Peter of Hyperlipid, Gary Taubes, and others. They provide more than enough material for me to read. One area where Matt and I are apparently similar is with dairy, which Matt seems to also fair poorly on--even raw milk--though it sounds like he has much less problems with it than I do.

Quote
Are you aware of any anti-nutrients they may contain?  Sweet potato can be eaten raw but with toxins such as trypsin inhibitor it's not necessarily a good idea long-term.
Don't let the veg-heads and fruit fans fool you. ALL plants contain antinutrients, even fruits. If they didn't they wouldn't survive long in the wild. Those antinutrients are critical chemical defense mechanisms. Of course, the flora fiends give antinutrients politically correct terms like "phytonutrients." Remember, antinutrients don't have to be instant lethal poisons to be antinutrients and human beings are better adapted to some than others. Antinutrients are neither pure evil nor completely benign.

Quote
Of course, there's still the potential for fresh blood that we discussed previously too.  It seems that insects are not signifiant with respect to carbs unless one considers eating 500g - 1kg of them per day.  I see them as having provided more as a source of protein and minerals.
Yeah, once humans got pretty large and got pretty good at hunting megafauna, insects and other little critters became a somewhat inefficient food source for such large human animals that had better options. However, insects and other microfauna remain in the human diet to this day and I do think that consumption of insects and other small animals is a crucial part of our ancestral and genetic heritage.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 10:16:35 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline klowcarb

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #217 on: September 18, 2010, 07:39:03 am »

I'm neither a ZC zealot

But it's so much fun!  ;)

Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #218 on: September 20, 2010, 06:10:24 am »
Organ meats all contain calcium too, with tripe containing a significant amount, and marrow some unknown amount. There's also Dr. Ron's bone meal that is supposed to be high quality, but I have no way of testing it. My favorite source of calcium is dried salted mackerel from a local Asian food store.

Thanks for the suggestions.  Mackerel appears to be a reasonable source of Mg - 76mg per 100g fresh.  Dried, of course, would be significantly more!  I wonder if I should consider home-drying lots of mackerel fillets at low temperature as a regular Mg source?  Hmm, that's got me thinking.  Thanks.  I suppose the quantities of protein consumed may become an issue if eating large amounts of dried fish along with regular meat consumption.

Quote
I've read here and there that Stone Agers ate a lot of calcium, but rarely is it said what they ate to give them the calcium. Fiber and carbs can bind with calcium and block its absorption, so if you aren't eating a lot of fiber and carbs your calcium needs are probably much less than a SAD eater.

Yes, this is extremely annoying!  It's an issue that seems to get glossed over.  Certainly, the fact that I consume very little fiber, phytates etc does ensure that my requirement is greatly reduced.

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I'm doing VLC and doing OK, though even the small amount of plant carbs (around 1-4% of calories) I'm eating does give me mild negative symptoms--much less severe than when I was eating plentiful carbs, of course...I still have constipation, some continued hairloss, underweight and undermuscled... I find when my plant carb intake gets above around 3-4% I start getting negative symptoms...Like Lex I don't think that he or I and some other people have any carb requirement. I'm basically experimenting because I haven't reached Lex's level of success yet and my constipation is not resolving as quickly as his did, IIRC...In these and other matters, my experience comes much closer to that of you, Lex, Dr. Harris, Michael Eades, Peter of Hyperlipid, Gary Taubes, and others. 

How long have you been eating RAF now Phil and how old are you? As far as I can recall you've only been on the forum for the last year or so and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're in your forties aren't you?  I'm 38 and have been eating a RAF based diet for 10 years now.  I still have issues.  I've had to conclude that healing is a s-l-o-w process the speed of which is inversely proportional to the amount of damage inflicted in previous years.  Perhaps time and patience are your greatest resources now.  Your intolerance of carbs may be due to previous damage and may eventually resolve OR maybe any significant level of carbs in the human diet is simply not relevant and we're searching for something that never existed?

I am baffled by your constipation issues Phil, particularly, as this is not something I've ever experienced eating this way.  With luck, the coconut butter is going to help you with this.  Would you consider raw dairy butter as I've always understood this to be effective in this respect?  I do also find it strange that you remain underweight and undermuscled.  I certainly consider myself slim but not underweight.  Unless consuming vast quantities of raw dairy, I simply don't greatly fluctuate in body weight.  But, despite generally very low levels of exercise, I do find that the diet alone keeps me very well toned and muscled.  There must be some kind of absorption issues or existing intestinal injury going on for you which, in time, I'm sure will improve.  You are your own greatest researcher and I'm confident that you'll resolve any remaining issues eventually!


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I didn't know that Harris had even wrote about starvation mode.

I recall him speaking of it as a commentator on someone else's blog (possibly Roddy's?).  I can't recall if he's specifically covered the issue on PaNu.  Unfortunately, I don't find I have enough time to follow any of the blogs as closely as I'd like.

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Don't let the veg-heads and fruit fans fool you. ALL plants contain antinutrients, even fruits. If they didn't they wouldn't survive long in the wild. Those antinutrients are critical chemical defense mechanisms... Antinutrients are neither pure evil nor completely benign.

Yes, I've become increasingly aware of this only over the last couple of years of participating in this forum.  Interestingly, I have cut nightshades out of my diet too now.  Up until a few weeks ago I had usually been eating small quantities of peppers, tomatoes, cayenne etc with my meats (and even occasional potatoes if eating a cooked restaurant meal or Christmas dinner!).  Those high alkaloid levels seem to have substantial potential deleterious effects upon our health and, I must admit, I have been feeling better as a result.


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However, insects and other microfauna remain in the human diet to this day and I do think that consumption of insects and other small animals is a crucial part of our ancestral and genetic heritage.

Yes, I agree.  I'm particularly squeamish when it comes to insects, unfortunately, so I doubt if it's something I'll ever experiment with!  :)
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #219 on: September 20, 2010, 06:59:17 am »
Thanks for the suggestions.  Mackerel appears to be a reasonable source of Mg - 76mg per 100g fresh.  Dried, of course, would be significantly more!  I wonder if I should consider home-drying lots of mackerel fillets at low temperature as a regular Mg source?
I thought about home drying, but that would probably be too smelly indoors.

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How long have you been eating RAF now Phil and how old are you? As far as I can recall you've only been on the forum for the last year or so and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're in your forties aren't you?  I'm 38 and have been eating a RAF based diet for 10 years now.  I still have issues.  I've had to conclude that healing is a s-l-o-w process the speed of which is inversely proportional to the amount of damage inflicted in previous years.
Not good news, oh well. But didn't Lex's improvements come quicker than that?

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I am baffled by your constipation issues Phil, particularly, as this is not something I've ever experienced eating this way.  With luck, the coconut butter is going to help you with this.  Would you consider raw dairy butter as I've always understood this to be effective in this respect?
Yes, I wish to try that some day. I'm not a fan of the taste and mouth feel of cold or room-temp butter, but I'd force it down as a medicinal.

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I do also find it strange that you remain underweight and undermuscled.  I certainly consider myself slim but not underweight.
It's particularly frustrating when some people talk about how their muscles popped out with little effort within months, sometimes even with no significant exercise. I think this is probably relatively natural and people like me either have low-muscle genes or have some continued defect in system functioning, such as inadequate gut flora. On the bright side, while I don't have the defined abs of others (I think my spinal malalignment may contribute to that), the area of my former inguinal pre-hernia (it was bulging but not torn) has become more defined.

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There must be some kind of absorption issues or existing intestinal injury going on for you
Yes, you read my mind. ;) We seem to think much alike.

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which, in time, I'm sure will improve.
I hope you're right and I always remain optimistic about such things, even when the physicians tell me that improvement is impossible.


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I didn't know that Harris had even wrote about starvation mode.

I recall him speaking of it as a commentator on someone else's blog (possibly Roddy's?).  I can't recall if he's specifically covered the issue on PaNu.  Unfortunately, I don't find I have enough time to follow any of the blogs as closely as I'd like.

[/quote]Yes, I've become increasingly aware of this only over the last couple of years of participating in this forum.  Interestingly, I have cut nightshades out of my diet too now.  Up until a few weeks ago I had usually been eating small quantities of peppers, tomatoes, cayenne etc with my meats (and even occasional potatoes if eating a cooked restaurant meal or Christmas dinner!).  Those high alkaloid levels seem to have substantial potential deleterious effects upon our health and, I must admit, I have been feeling better as a result.[/quote]Yes, it was disappointing to cut out another category of food, and I was loathe to do so (and thus put off trying it too long), but I find a more restricted diet is not as bad as I imagined it would be. I think that most of even the Paleo/Primal/LC experts underestimate the subtle damage that many plant foods can do when eaten year-round without offsetting the antinutrient buildup with clay or other detoxicants (note: when I speak of detoxicants, I speak of things that absorb plant antinutrients and carry them out of the body and thus avoid or reduce negative symptoms, rather than the different sort of "detox" in which people claim that nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, emaciation, dental cavities, etc. must be "detox" symptoms without knowing what's going on inside the person), especially in people whose systems are already damaged. I think that seasonal eating plus indigenous knowledge about the best detoxicants for various plants are two areas that modern diets tend to be weak in.

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Yes, I agree.  I'm particularly squeamish when it comes to insects, unfortunately, so I doubt if it's something I'll ever experiment with!
Hee, hee. I ate an ate that was climbing on a wood sorrel plant, and it tasted sweet like the wood sorrel. Not much of a meal, though. African termites would be more concentrated in number and fat-rich.

Thanks for the input. Very valuable as usual.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Michael

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #220 on: September 20, 2010, 07:57:51 am »
I thought about home drying, but that would probably be too smelly indoors.

Yes, I'm assuming that you don't have room for a dehydrator in your - as previously described - small apartment either do you?  Perhaps a worthy investment when you move to a larger home.  I find my dehydrator invaluable!

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Not good news, oh well. But didn't Lex's improvements come quicker than that?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!  But, it's good to have realistic expectations even with something as wonderful as RPD.  Also, I was excessively damaged to begin with despite my age.  So, as I believe you often say, YMMV.  I do believe Lex's improvements were much quicker although I can't recall quite the number of years he's been eating this way.  I suspect, being of an older generation, he would have been blessed with a much stronger constitution than myself too.  I was the first generation of growing up on pure junk food and suffered it's early consequences.

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Yes, I wish to try that some day. I'm not a fan of the taste and mouth feel of cold or room-temp butter, but I'd force it down as a medicinal.

That's interesting.  I used to hate butter growing up and couldn't have even a smidgeon of it anywhere near my food.  I'd never eaten it since until getting into AV's dietary ideas.  I adore raw, grass-fed butter and can eat it alone in substantial quantities without difficulty!

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It's particularly frustrating when some people talk about how their muscles popped out with little effort within months, sometimes even with no significant exercise.

Sorry to frustrate you further!  :)  That has certainly been my experience.  I probably have as good or better physique than most exercise intensive men in their 20s entirely due to this diet despite little exercise other than walking, cycling and occasional tibetan yoga.  I think that when you resolve or overcome the root issues you seem to be suffering Phil then you, too, will experience these wonderful benefits.

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Yes, you read my mind. ;) We seem to think much alike.

It does seem that we share many thoughts and experiences.  I've greatly enjoyed your addition to the forum over the last year Phil and, like most others I'm sure, put great value in your contributions.

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I hope you're right and I always remain optimistic about such things, even when the physicians tell me that improvement is impossible.

Indeed, the physicians tell us much that has no foundation in the truth.  There may be a few small details that need ironing out for you but you are most certainly on the right path to achieving the level of health you desire and overcoming most, if not all, of any remaining issues you face.

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Yes, it was disappointing to cut out another category of food, and I was loathe to do so (and thus put off trying it too long), but I find a more restricted diet is not as bad as I imagined it would be. I think that most of even the Paleo/Primal/LC experts underestimate the subtle damage that many plant foods can do when eaten year-round without offsetting the antinutrient buildup with clay or other detoxicants

I agree.  I believe this is certainly something that I've underestimated myself.  I've long been aware of the complications of nightshades, for instance, but only seriously began considering excluding them entirely following your recent comments.  I have also found it very easy to adapt to an increasingly restricted diet.  In fact, I have little desire for anything but meat and fat most of the time now!

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I think that seasonal eating plus indigenous knowledge about the best detoxicants for various plants are two areas that modern diets tend to be weak in.

I believe you're right!  There is so much such wonderful knowledge that has been carelessly lost.  We're a part of a movement piecing together some of this knowledge and uncovering the truth.

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I ate an ate that was climbing on a wood sorrel plant, and it tasted sweet like the wood sorrel. Not much of a meal, though. African termites would be more concentrated in number and fat-rich.

Really?!  Incredible!  I find it amazing what some of you guys on here can eat and it makes me feel quite inadequate.  Could you imagine yourself eating termites, crickets, etc?

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Thanks for the input. Very valuable as usual.

Thanks to you too Phil.  I find our discussions of great value and, despite years of learning/experimenting about human health, I find that you often provide me with useful information I was unaware of or set my mind off to explore a matter previously unconsidered!  It's a great exchange!  :)
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #221 on: September 20, 2010, 10:31:17 am »
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I ate an ate [ant] that was climbing on a wood sorrel plant, and it tasted sweet like the wood sorrel. Not much of a meal, though. African termites would be more concentrated in number and fat-rich.

Michael wrote: "Really?!  Incredible!  I find it amazing what some of you guys on here can eat and it makes me feel quite inadequate.  Could you imagine yourself eating termites, crickets, etc?"Yeah, no problem. Some other insects are supposed to taste rather good. For example, some insects reportedly taste of nuts, though it likely depends on what they eat. There's a guy at the Dirty Carnivore forum who has eaten some insects and found they tasted very good.

It makes sense given that scientists believe that all primates are descended from a creature that resembled a tree shrew or similar primate and was an omnivore that ate insects and other small critters and fruits, as I recall. Humans are relatively closely related to the insect-eating carnivorous (faunivorous) tarsier as well as the better-known less carnivorous primates, but you won't hear vegans or vegetarians talk about that.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #222 on: September 20, 2010, 01:40:12 pm »
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I ate an ate [ant] that was climbing on a wood sorrel plant, and it tasted sweet like the wood sorrel. Not much of a meal, though. African termites would be more concentrated in number and fat-rich.

Michael wrote: "Really?!  Incredible!  I find it amazing what some of you guys on here can eat and it makes me feel quite inadequate.  Could you imagine yourself eating termites, crickets, etc?"Yeah, no problem. Some other insects are supposed to taste rather good. For example, some insects reportedly taste of nuts, though it likely depends on what they eat. There's a guy at the Dirty Carnivore forum who has eaten some insects and found they tasted very good.

It makes sense given that scientists believe that all primates are descended from a creature that resembled a tree shrew or similar primate and was an omnivore that ate insects and other small critters and fruits, as I recall. Humans are relatively closely related to the insect-eating carnivorous (faunivorous) tarsier as well as the better-known less carnivorous primates, but you won't hear vegans or vegetarians talk about that.

We could use an insect eating guide with pictures.  Start a thread!
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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #223 on: September 21, 2010, 03:14:34 am »
Good idea gs!  An insect eating thread would be brilliant.  You sound qualified for the job PaleoPhil?!  :)

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Could you imagine yourself eating termites, crickets, etc? Yeah, no problem. Some other insects are supposed to taste rather good. For example, some insects reportedly taste of nuts, though it likely depends on what they eat. There's a guy at the Dirty Carnivore forum who has eaten some insects and found they tasted very good.

You're far more adventurous than I when it comes to eating then!  I'm intrigued at the thought of eating insects (and expect it would get me over my uncomfortableness with them) but am not sure I could bring myself to do it.  Perhaps thoroughly prepared, chopped up and cooked hidden in a curry sauce but on their own?!!  How does the D.C guy eat them?

You often give me the impression you've done your research on paleontology etc.  I don't know a great deal about this subject to be honest.  That's interesting that evidence suggests we're derived from a tree shrew and related to that wonderful creature - the tarsier!  They live entirely on insects, birds and small mammals don't they?

On the subject of vegans (and drifting off topic somewhat), I was reading an article on raising children on vegan diets in my partner's Green Parent magazine over my beef/butter lunch today! :)  I'm in no position to judge them as I, too, was in a similar place with my beliefs and outlook in the past but the manner in which they're feeding their children from birth and the level of false information they've 'educated' themselves with is scary!  The poor children look so unhealthy in the photos and yet the parents seem convinced they're physically and mentally advanced compared to their peers?!  I suppose if their peers are eating SAD then this is a possibility but it's a shocking state of affairs.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Hans89

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Re: Matt Stone HED - Insulin spikes do NOT cause insulin resistance??
« Reply #224 on: October 07, 2010, 01:42:43 am »
http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/10/befriending-insulin.html

Matt's latest post. Quite interesting.

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Insulin also works on an axis with the catecholamines – which includes cortisol. When insulin goes up, adrenal activity falls. When insulin goes down, adrenal activity picks up. Keep insulin too low for too long and you run the risk of adrenal fatigue. You are also likely to increase the activity of cortisol (which, unlike carbohydrate ingestion, actually DOES cause insulin resistance) by keeping insulin levels suppressed, which increases insulin resistance, decreases testosterone, decreases fat burning, and otherwise takes you ever-closer to metabolic syndrome.

Exactly what happened to me I guess. I had adrenal fatigue to begin with, eating low-carb made me feel awesome at first, but aggravated the problem. Interestingly, I felt the best when I was still eating some cooked rice and vegetables but with a lot of raw meat. After some months, the incredible energy I had felt at first waned. At the same time, insulin resistance increased to the point that any carbs were causing me big problems. My body however wouldn't let me go zero carb either because it didn't agree with me frying my adrenals. Eating 40-50 bananas a day restored my insulin sensitivity but caused me bowel problems in the long run. The initial bloating and gas diminished after a while but then came back with a vengeance.

 

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