Poll

are you going bare?

Vibrams
2 (15.4%)
Barefoot
4 (30.8%)
Mocs
2 (15.4%)
Sandals
0 (0%)
Not attending
5 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Author Topic: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??  (Read 48793 times)

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Offline Sully

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2010, 12:55:44 am »
I have walked on man made surfaces bare footed, not a problem for my feet. But it is a problem for my joints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many of you walked for hours on cement at a regular pace and not tip toed or lightly stepped with your heel?
I have, knee joint pain surfaced. Put on shoes for cement and it went away.

Walking on man made surfaces damages joints. Especially bare footed and walking normally.

This is NOT my opinion, this is my experience and a pure fact.

Offline miles

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2010, 12:58:38 am »
That's why I don't heel-walk. I absorb the shock like with running barefoot.
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Offline Sully

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2010, 01:00:15 am »
That's why I don't heel-walk.
then your not human, JK
heel walking is done naturally and with no problem on grass and sand dirt etc

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2010, 01:40:21 am »
How many of you walked for hours on cement at a regular pace and not tip toed or lightly stepped with your heel?
Walking on man made surfaces damages joints. Especially bare footed and walking normally. This is NOT my opinion, this is my experience and a pure fact.

I've walked for hours at a regular pace on cement and asphalt with no problem at all.  As I've stated before, my whole body, hips, knees, ankles, and feet adjust their motions to accommodate the surface.  For instance, when walking on crushed gravel with sharp angular surfaces, my footstrike automatically becomes more flat to spread the pressure more evenly.  This causes the rest of my body to compensate by adjusting how the knees, hips, and torso move while walking on that particular surface.  All this is automatic.  I don't even think about it - it just happens on its own.

Thinking that wearing shoes to isolate you from the various surfaces that you find uncomfortable so that you can always maintain the same footstrike and gait seems far more unnatural to me than just allowing my body to naturally adjust to whatever conditions exist.  Solid rock is just has hard as cement and I'd call it 'natural'.  Several places I've hiked were mostly rock.  Our feet are marvels of engineering.  If given a chance they will accommodate almost any surface, but you are right, you can't force you body to maintain the same footstrike and gait on every surface and expect that all will be well.  It is our body's ability to automatically adjust to accommodate widely varying conditions that is so remarkable in our species.  Unfortunately, it is also very human to want to control our environment so that we can ignore the natural order of things and force our bodies to do very unnatural acts like always walking with the same step and gait – hence we invent shoes and over time come to believe that they are necessary.

Lex

Offline infinitenexus

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2010, 01:51:23 am »
I picked up a pair of vibram FFs a couple months ago and I absolutely love them, especially since I started running with proper form, not heel-striking.  I think this weekend I may start running fully barefoot.  It's such an incredible lower-leg workout!  Sprinting up hills in vibrams (or barefoot) is a ridiculous calf workout for those of us who have worn "regular" shoes all our lives.

Offline Sully

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2010, 02:36:46 am »
Unfortunately, it is also very human to want to control our environment so that we can ignore the natural order of things and force our bodies to do very unnatural acts like always walking with the same step and gait – hence we invent shoes and over time come to believe that they are necessary.

Lex


We invented shoes/sandals (not referring to moccasins), because we invented pavement and brick/stone roads/paths. The shoes helps withstand the the hard surface.


I understand that our body adjust to whatever it walks on naturally, but where is there pavement in nature, Where we would be walking miles on end on hard surfaces on a daily basis? Or better yet, who would choose to walk on hard surfaces miles on end if there is a softer path of dirt/grass etc?  Were not mountain goats.


Btw, I wonder if Neanderthals needed some animal skins to cover there foot in winter. We all know the Inuit did.







Offline infinitenexus

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2010, 03:35:19 am »
Running on manmade surfaces will only damage your joints if you're running with bad form, i.e., heel-striking.  Barefoot Ken Bob has run tons of marathons barefoot on pavement, but he does it with natural form, on the balls of his feet, and his joints are doing great.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2010, 03:46:28 am »
I picked up a pair of vibram FFs a couple months ago and I absolutely love them, especially since I started running with proper form, not heel-striking.  

I bought a couple of pair of these as well and don't like them much.  I prefer total barefoot and they don't meet the fetching Mrs Rooker's requirements as appropriate footwear when we are out socially so to me they are not very useful.

Lex
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 06:38:21 am by lex_rooker »

Offline Sully

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2010, 04:02:10 am »
  Barefoot Ken Bob has run tons of marathons barefoot on pavement, but he does it with natural form, on the balls of his feet, and his joints are doing great.
You can run heel toe without knee problems on grass and dirt....

Offline miles

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2010, 04:07:40 am »
Running forefoot first is still usually, almost always better off-road as well.. Even if it's so little that it's almost flat, it's the default, natural way of running..
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Offline infinitenexus

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2010, 04:12:36 am »
It still transmits a surprising amount of shock to the body though.  The middle of the foot is basically a big joint, that absorbs a ton of impact.  Running on the balls of your feet allows your feet to work as they evolved to work, to absorb all that shock and prevent it from harming your body.  It takes a bit to re-learn running form, both the form itself and for the muscles/tendons/ligaments/bones to strengthen, but it's well worth it.  I'm in the Army and we do a lot of running on pavement, and I used to get shin splints pretty badly at times.  Once I got my vibrams (which, due to Army regulations on allowable PT clothing/shoes, are the closest I can get to barefoot while exercising at work) and started running on the balls of my feet, with a shorter, faster stride, my shin splints instantly went away.  Ahh, I'm rambling.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2010, 06:43:20 am »
Once I got my vibrams (which, due to Army regulations on allowable PT clothing/shoes, are the closest I can get to barefoot while exercising at work) and started running on the balls of my feet, with a shorter, faster stride, my shin splints instantly went away.

As usual it is the individual conditions that count.  If I were in the Army and was allowed to wear Vibrams for PT instead of those miserable boots I was issued, I'd probably be shouting the praises of my Vibram's to the rafters. 

Lex

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2010, 11:59:34 am »
Running on manmade surfaces will only damage your joints if you're running with bad form, i.e., heel-striking.  Barefoot Ken Bob has run tons of marathons barefoot on pavement, but he does it with natural form, on the balls of his feet, and his joints are doing great.
I haven't noticed any problems with blacktop pavement--just cement, which is apparently denser and therefore harder and less forgiving. Now that I'm used to walking and running in bare feet and flat-soled shoes, shoes with heels like Sully's feel awkward and clumsy and tip me foreward and out of balance. So shoes with big cushy heels are not a good solution re: cement for me. I've been giving my right foot a break by trying to walk on the grass beside sidewalks wherever possible and it seems like it's slowly recovering.

I'm hoping my feet will toughen up, like Lex's, and I'll eventually be able to handle even cement well. I have a history of connective tissue problems, so it will likely take me longer to strengthen my tissues than most people.

It's interesting to see the wide spectrum of experiences here. Clearly we're not going to agree on a single perfect approach to every aspect of running, walking, brand of shoe, shoes vs. no shoes, or various surfaces that suits the current needs of all of us. Luckily, we don't need one.

Even though my speculative hypothesis is that forefoot-style is the most natural form of both running and walking, based on watching infants walk and anecdotal reports from and about some others, my feet so far have only gravitated to forefoot-style when sprinting or going uphill or up and down stairs (they naturally gravitate to flatfoot style or a very light heel-first style when walking on flat ground, even when I'm barefooted). My guess is that my feet will slowly gravitate more toward forefoot-style in the future, but I can't be sure of this. As I think I mentioned, I have also encountered counter-evidence to my hypothesis, in the form of images of traditional people walking heel-first in bare feet or flat-soled shoes and a video of a chimpanzee walking heel-first. The contradictory evidence is puzzling and it's an intriguing topic. I'm hoping that more evidence will make the picture clearer in the future, but in the meantime I'm enjoying the puzzle.
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Offline Sully

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2010, 12:11:33 pm »
shoes with heels like Sully's feel awkward and clumsy and tip me foreward and out of balance.
I was just thinking about that, my shoes have a mini ramp which pushes my heel too high ,
Not too much prob with them, but I know there must be better out there more form fitting,

there is a new balance pair that i like much more than these modified sandals i made, i had them before, got to find them

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2010, 01:59:48 pm »
I was just thinking about that, my shoes have a mini ramp which pushes my heel too high ,
Not too much prob with them, but I know there must be better out there more form fitting,

there is a new balance pair that i like much more than these modified sandals i made, i had them before, got to find them

Get racing flats.  Light weight, very thin sole and no heel.

Lex

Offline infinitenexus

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2010, 12:19:57 am »
I haven't noticed any problems with blacktop pavement--just cement, which is apparently denser and therefore harder and less forgiving. Now that I'm used to walking and running in bare feet and flat-soled shoes, shoes with heels like Sully's feel awkward and clumsy and tip me foreward and out of balance. So shoes with big cushy heels are not a good solution re: cement for me. I've been giving my right foot a break by trying to walk on the grass beside sidewalks wherever possible and it seems like it's slowly recovering.

I'm hoping my feet will toughen up, like Lex's, and I'll eventually be able to handle even cement well. I have a history of connective tissue problems, so it will likely take me longer to strengthen my tissues than most people.

It's interesting to see the wide spectrum of experiences here. Clearly we're not going to agree on a single perfect approach to every aspect of running, walking, brand of shoe, shoes vs. no shoes, or various surfaces that suits the current needs of all of us. Luckily, we don't need one.

Even though my speculative hypothesis is that forefoot-style is the most natural form of both running and walking, based on watching infants walk and anecdotal reports from and about some others, my feet so far have only gravitated to forefoot-style when sprinting or going uphill or up and down stairs (they naturally gravitate to flatfoot style or a very light heel-first style when walking on flat ground, even when I'm barefooted). My guess is that my feet will slowly gravitate more toward forefoot-style in the future, but I can't be sure of this. As I think I mentioned, I have also encountered counter-evidence to my hypothesis, in the form of images of traditional people walking heel-first in bare feet or flat-soled shoes and a video of a chimpanzee walking heel-first. The contradictory evidence is puzzling and it's an intriguing topic. I'm hoping that more evidence will make the picture clearer in the future, but in the meantime I'm enjoying the puzzle.

Well for walking I think heel-first is okay, as it's pretty low impact, but for running, that's when the need for running on the balls of your feet really arises.  Another thing that I sometimes forget is that I'm only about 5'7", and 140 pounds soaking wet.  So when I'm running there isn't a ton of pressure/stress on my feet/achillies tendon/etc.  Guys that weigh more put a lot more pressure on their feet/ankles, and it just takes longer for stuff to physically strengthen.  I've read that even for an experienced runner, switching to barefoot or even vibrams and running toes first it will still take as much as a year or more for the bones/tendons/muscles/skin of the feet and lower legs to strengthen enough to run long distances that way.  I believe it.  I've been wearing mine for a few months and my calves still get nice and sore after running a few quick miles in them.

Offline Sully

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2010, 02:19:10 am »
Get racing flats.  Light weight, very thin sole and no heel.

Lex
I'll check them out, thanks :)

Offline miles

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2010, 04:54:31 am »
Make some Huarache's(Sandals) in the style of the Tarahumara etc..
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2010, 05:19:44 am »
@infinitenexus: I'm light too and I've been doing barefoot style for a couple years, but like I said, I have weak connective tissues and muscles (due to a history of gluten sensitive enteropathy and mild connective tissue disorders), so it will probably take longer for me to adjust, if I ever do adjust fully. Interestingly, I found the following, which suggests that forefoot striking might not be best for anything beyond sprinting, which contradicts my original hypothesis that it's the natural method for all forms of walking and running. This adds to my skepticism about my hypothesis, but I haven't abandoned it yet. For one thing, it would be pretty cool and wild if it turned out that most people walk the opposite way they should, so I'm still rooting for the forefoot-strike-at-all-speeds-being-natural hypothesis, :), but being a skeptic and a lover of empirical science, I cannot claim that there is strong evidence for my hypothesis at this point.

Quote
In the third figure I’m landing in a midfoot (or fullfoot) strike which means that the entire bottom of my foot is landing as my foot hits the ground. My GFR was measured at 2.47 x Body Weight or 2.47 x 150 lbs. = 370.5 lbs. Now, if the surface area of the entire bottom of my foot is roughly 30 sq. inches. (I’m a size 9.5 shoe), that would mean that the impact felt by my feet would be approximately 12.35 lbs./sq. inch. or half as much as the forefoot striker. That’s less than 25% of the impact per square inch the heel striker feels and half of what the forefoot striker feels. ....

There are times to run with a forefoot strike. There are times to run with a fullfoot strike. And, there are times to run (believe it or not) with a heel strike. I’ll cover these in a future blog. http://chirunning.com/blogs/danny/2010/02/15/comparison-of-harvard-study-results-with-chirunning/
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline infinitenexus

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2010, 05:43:56 am »
Well, that equation isn't taken one very very important thing into account:  the fact that the foot itself flexes and absorbs shock when you avoid heel-striking.  There's slow-motion videos on youtube of a guy jogging on a treadmill both heel striking and not.  In the heel striking videos you can literally see waves of shock travelling up beyond his knees, but when he's on the balls of his feet, there is much much less shock.  Running on the balls of the feet fully utilizes the flexible nature of the foot.  Flat footed, I dunno, I'd have to try it I guess.  But I definitely do not believe in any way that there is a time to ever run heel-first.

Barefoot Ken Bob has really good guidelines for running barefoot: small, quick steps, upright posture, landing on the balls of your feet.  Running with small fast steps makes it a lot easier and more natural feeling.

Sorry to hear about your weak tissues.  Unfortunately, modern shoes have weakened all of our feet (though not necessarily to the point of yours) because they support our feet, instead of letting the foot grow strong and support itself.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2010, 05:57:13 am »
...But I definitely do not believe in any way that there is a time to ever run heel-first.
Yeah, I'm also particularly skeptical of that part of Danny Dreyer's claim--unless maybe he means when running downhill? Unfortunately, it looks like he hasn't posted further on it yet. Maybe we should express our interest to encourage him?

Quote
Barefoot Ken Bob has really good guidelines for running barefoot: small, quick steps, upright posture, landing on the balls of your feet.  Running with small fast steps makes it a lot easier and more natural feeling.
Yes, I have checked out some of his writings, and that sounds like what I recall.

Quote
Sorry to hear about your weak tissues.  Unfortunately, modern shoes have weakened all of our feet (though not necessarily to the point of yours) because they support our feet, instead of letting the foot grow strong and support itself.
Thanks, and you're quite correct. In many ways we moderners have coddled ourselves and as a result we are less robust, which Taleb and others would probably argue increases the risks of disadvantageous changes and reduces the survival chances of our species. I think Taleb is right in focusing on robustness as a key concept.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2010, 09:55:03 am »
@infinitenexus: I'm light too and I've been doing barefoot style for a couple years, but like I said, I have weak connective tissues and muscles (due to a history of gluten sensitive enteropathy and mild connective tissue disorders), so it will probably take longer for me to adjust, if I ever do adjust fully. Interestingly, I found the following, which suggests that forefoot striking might not be best for anything beyond sprinting, which contradicts my original hypothesis that it's the natural method for all forms of walking and running. This adds to my skepticism about my hypothesis, but I haven't abandoned it yet. For one thing, it would be pretty cool and wild if it turned out that most people walk the opposite way they should, so I'm still rooting for the forefoot-strike-at-all-speeds-being-natural hypothesis, :), but being a skeptic and a lover of empirical science, I cannot claim that there is strong evidence for my hypothesis at this point.


Too much talking, too little doing.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2010, 05:00:27 am »
Too much talking, too little doing.
??? What are you talking about? I already walk barefoot style too much as it is and injured my right foot as a result, as I reported. By reducing the amount of walking and walking with my right foot more on grass, I have enabled it to mostly heal. If it stays healed I will gradually increase my walking again.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2010, 07:58:57 am »
Nah I just mean because... If you are barefoot enough, you will learn that walking forefoot is better, most of the time. Then you won't be so concerned about some douche's study. If you actually use walking, barefoot, then you will want to walk effectively and you will just end up walking forefoot much of the time, at some point. That's the way you will find what is best, not by thinking. If you just go out for walks you might never learn to walk forefoot. But if you are walking to get to places then you will.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: OH YEAH! barefoot run!!! whos going??
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2010, 08:56:46 am »
Nah I just mean because... If you are barefoot enough, you will learn that walking forefoot is better, most of the time.
No, I didn't learn that, even after two years of not wearing shoes with heels, as I already explained. You said that walking forefoot-first came quickly and naturally to you, and that's fine, but it didn't happen for Lex or me. I expected that it would, but it didn't--yet--and I found this out myself long before I read about "some douche's study." I've been posting about forefoot walking since before you even registered at this forum. BTW, I don't see where that guy acted like a douche. You've been acting much more like that yourself lately. What gives? Whatever it is, please get over it and move on.

Quote
That's the way you will find what is best, not by thinking. If you just go out for walks you might never learn to walk forefoot. But if you are walking to get to places then you will.
What the...?  l) That's one of the most bizarre comments I've ever seen in this forum, and I've seen some doozies. I did try forefoot walking with surprisingly poor results. I do walk to places--like work for one. That's actually part of my exercise style--incorporating exercise into my daily life, rather than driving to a gym and spending an hour there every three or more days of the week, as though it were a special, unusual activity that required certain rituals and burning of fossil fuels. Do you actually expect us to believe that Lex also does not walk "to get to places"?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 09:06:29 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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