Author Topic: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables  (Read 40467 times)

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Offline CHK91

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Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« on: January 18, 2011, 01:46:27 am »
Do any of you happen to have a reference to which fruits and vegetables found commonly in the supermarket have remained relatively unchanged from their original form? Meaning not excessively changed through artificial selection.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 01:49:46 am »
This is a bit pointless as raw meats have also been heavily altered given millenia of domestication and the severe inbreeding that resulted therefrom since the Neolithic era. If you want to be sure to get only unchanged foods, then your only safe bet is to only get hold of raw wild game or raw wildcaught seafood or raw wild fruits/veg.
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Offline CHK91

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 01:57:01 am »
This is more for knowledge purposes. I just wanted to have a better understanding of exactly what plant foods our ancestors had available to eat. I can't think of many wild plant foods that would have be edible at that time. Perhaps civilization has made these foods less prominent? ??? Extinction of wild varieties?
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Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 02:26:23 am »
well tyler is pretty much right..virtually none.

for a list of things you are curious about, I would definitely check with Daniel Vitalis' stuff as that seems to be his main thing. I'm sure this would include wild herbs like lambsquarters and dandelion or other bitter medicinal herbs you might get in the supermarket, mushrooms, seaweeds, wild animals and some types of the remaining wild fruits. Not saying all these things were eaten in any serious quantity, but wouldn't have changed much due to civilization. There are degrees between things as well. For instance the Florida style avocados I believe are far more akin to their natural origin than hass varieties. Obviously a berry is more natural than a kiwi etc...many varieties of fruits and vegetables certainly did not exist, including much what what we know to be vegetables like broccoli or black eggplant, many of which are predated by varities of corn, alcohol etc.. :)

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2011, 03:36:18 am »
AFAIK wild blackberries are considered one of the least altered fruits, even among wild berries.
They are practically the same as their "paleo ancestors"
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2011, 04:06:58 am »
AFAIK wild blackberries are considered one of the least altered fruits, even among wild berries.
They are practically the same as their "paleo ancestors"

Possibly. Another very ancient and wild fruit is the cempedak. Delicious and very nourishing.  

Some might argue that this fruit grows in SE Asia and as our ancestors are supposed to have come from Africa they would never have encountered any cemepdak. But they would never have encountered any blackberries neither because this is a fruit of temperate areas, which, as far as we know, were not significantly populated before the mastery of the fire.  

Nevertheless, I eat both blackberries and cempedak.  ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 04:31:54 am »
Those photos are so revolting-looking they seem like pro-RZC propaganda.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 04:58:45 am »
Well, so they're gone.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 05:10:20 am »
Well, so they're gone.
I was just being humorous as the photos do look rather off-putting. Not an attempt at cernsorship. Please put them back.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline CHK91

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2011, 05:51:07 am »
Those photos are so revolting-looking they seem like pro-RZC propaganda.
It actually looks pretty good.  :(
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Offline Caveman

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 06:36:35 am »
Daniel's friend came out with a new book recently which includes many wild foods which are more in the north eastern parts of the U.S.

http://www.danielvitalis.com/2011/01/new-book-now-available-ancestral-plants/

Maybe that would help, but you might not live in the area.. it seems like there almost no wild foods here in the southwest..

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 07:17:33 am »
Possibly. Another very ancient and wild fruit is the cempedak. Delicious and very nourishing.  
 
Some might argue that this fruit grows in SE Asia and as our ancestors are supposed to have come from Africa they would never have encountered any cemepdak. But they would never have encountered any blackberries neither because this is a fruit of temperate areas, ...
Most scientists currently believe that my H. sapiens sapiens ancestors started out in Africa and migrated through the Middle East to Eurasia, ending up in Western Europe thousands of years ago, never stepping foot in SE Asia (and if I have any Neanderthal blood, some of my roots in Europe may go back as much as 600,000 years). I don't see what's wrong with my questioning whether SE Asia is really most like the original habitat of my ancestors, as GCB suggested but then backed off from a bit, and whether SE Asian fruits are really the most nutritious fruits for me and one of humanity's most nutritious foods just because some people like the taste of them and claim without much evidence that they are very similar to the fruits of ancestral humans (of East Africa?). As Nation implied a while ago, sometimes it's good to have someone question assumptions so that this forum doesn't become a circle jerk.

This doesn't mean that none of us can eat tropical or domesticated fruits (which appears to be a straw man that no one has suggested, AFAIK), it's just a matter of not assuming that some people's opinions are fact without investigating how much evidence and logic there is to support them. I haven't even proposed an alternative hypothesis, just asked questions and shared some info and experience. Maybe it will turn out that SE Asian fruits are superfoods and people like me have health issues with them because of damage from SAD, I don't know. I've got an open mind on the subject.

I enjoy the taste of some tropical fruits and occasionally eat some mango or a few chunks of pineapple, so I may actually eat and enjoy tropical fruits more than Tyler, ironically. Since not even the most expert scientists can agree on what the Paleo foods of our ancestors were and which time periods are most key for providing clues as to what would be most optimal for us, self-experimentation will likely remain a key tool for a long time to come. It's also important to bear in mind that not everyone's experience will be exactly the same.

I think that CHK91's original question is an interesting one regardless of whether one uses it as a tool to help determine which foods to eat or not. The history of domesticated and wild foods is a fascinating one. The problem is that there isn't a lot of information easily available on the subject. Wikipedia offers some and Daniel Vitalis has scrounged up some, so his website is probably also worth checking out.

The book looks interesting, thanks for the link, Caveman.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 07:37:06 am by PaleoPhil »
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 04:00:20 pm »
I was just being humorous as the photos do look rather off-putting. Not an attempt at cernsorship. Please put them back.

OK, here they are, from http://hungerhunger.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html:



Quote
These are wild durians from the jungle. They all have about the same slightly burnt durian flavor. The dark orange one can sometimes taste of peanut butter. Of the three types here, I found the medium orange type to be the best. As it was about to rain, I didn't have time to buy my favorite wild durian which has a more distinct wild durian smell and taste, with thick flesh and small seeds, but you can read about it here. These wild durians are so creamy (many people are thrown off by not just the smell, but by the creamy texture as versus crunchy/soft texture of most fruits), two or three is enough to make you feel full. The dark orange one especially is so dense and thick it is like eating hardened cream. My friend from China found it "quite pleasant, not at all as bad as what people say about it."

When I was eating these by myself this afternoon, I just praised God for giving us durians! Not exactly a beauty-contest winner (imagine the flesh in brown color--you know what I mean!) but it is absolutely delicious and lovers of this fruit would blow all their money just to eat it. Thank goodness durians are seasonal fruits or we'll all go broke.

And rambutans:
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 04:32:16 pm »
Most scientists currently believe that my H. sapiens sapiens ancestors started out in Africa and migrated through the Middle East to Eurasia, ending up in Western Europe thousands of years ago, never stepping foot in SE Asia (and if I have any Neanderthal blood, some of my roots in Europe may go back as much as 600,000 years). I don't see what's wrong with my questioning whether SE Asia is really most like the original habitat of my ancestors, as GCB suggested but then backed off from a bit, and whether SE Asian fruits are really the most nutritious fruits for me and one of humanity's most nutritious foods just because some people like the taste of them and claim without much evidence that they are very similar to the fruits of ancestral humans (of East Africa?). As Nation implied a while ago, sometimes it's good to have someone question assumptions so that this forum doesn't become a circle jerk.

I was not particularly aiming at you. No one really knows what was like the original habitat of our ancestors and it doesn’t matter much to me. Yes, most scientists currently believe that our H. sapiens sapiens ancestors started out in Africa, so let’s admit that’s probably right. What I meant is we shouldn’t exclude food from other areas than central tropical Africa, because if we do so, we should exclude almost everything such as blackberries, ocean fish and shellfish, beef, mutton, seal, caribou, hen’s eggs, chestnuts, walnuts, hazelnuts, pine nuts, almost all vegetables and fruits. Then, only safus, African insects and larvae, gazelle, giraffe, zebra, hippopotamus and elephant meat would be real paleo food and raw paleo nutrition would be totally impracticable.

So, why exclude cempedak, cherimoya, soursop, sapote mamey, sapote chico, sapote blanco and durians, for example, if we include blackberries and beef as paleo?    

Quote
This doesn't mean that none of us can eat tropical or domesticated fruits (which appears to be a straw man that no one has suggested, AFAIK), it's just a matter of not assuming that some people's opinions are fact without investigating how much evidence and logic there is to support them. I haven't even proposed an alternative hypothesis, just asked questions and shared some info and experience. Maybe it will turn out that SE Asian fruits are superfoods and people like me have health issues with them because of damage from SAD, I don't know. I've got an open mind on the subject.

Fine!

Quote
I enjoy the taste of some tropical fruits and occasionally eat some mango or a few chunks of pineapple, so I may actually eat and enjoy tropical fruits more than Tyler, ironically. Since not even the most expert scientists can agree on what the Paleo foods of our ancestors were and which time periods are most key for providing clues as to what would be most optimal for us, self-experimentation will likely remain a key tool for a long time to come. It's also important to bear in mind that not everyone's experience will be exactly the same.

I couldn’t agree more.

Quote
I think that CHK91's original question is an interesting one regardless of whether one uses it as a tool to help determine which foods to eat or not. The history of domesticated and wild foods is a fascinating one. The problem is that there isn't a lot of information easily available on the subject. Wikipedia offers some and Daniel Vitalis has scrounged up some, so his website is probably also worth checking out.

Yes, info about the origin of plant food is difficult to find, I realized that some years ago when I asked myself the same type of questions you currently raise. But I remember GCB has clarified his stand on that issue in a post here somewhere.  

Cheers
François
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 04:38:26 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 06:01:37 pm »
Given evidence of cro-magnon interbreeding with neanderthals, it's pretty clear that the out of africa theory is at least partially wrong, maybe wholly.
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2011, 06:51:39 pm »
What I meant is we shouldn’t exclude food from other areas than central tropical Africa, because if we do so, we should exclude almost everything such as blackberries, ocean fish and shellfish, beef, mutton, seal, caribou, hen’s eggs, chestnuts, walnuts, hazelnuts, pine nuts, almost all vegetables and fruits. Then, only safus, African insects and larvae, gazelle, giraffe, zebra, hippopotamus and elephant meat would be real paleo food and raw paleo nutrition would be totally impracticable.
I dsagree with you.
There was different climate hundreds of thousands years ago in Africa. The temperature was 10 degrees C lower than today, on average.
So the blackberries could also be in Africa long time ago. I bet they were there  :)
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2011, 07:05:24 pm »
Yes. perhaps, who knows? What I meant is that we don't really know, climate change, vegetation shifts. Perhaps there was cempedaks or alike fruits also in Africa or perhaps some of our ancestors hominids where living elsewhere than Africa, as TD pointed out. But from where came the ancestors of Neanderthals? Anyway it doesn't really matters. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2011, 09:22:35 pm »
Anyway it doesn't really matters.  
I think the same about this issue.
I simply eat those fruits which I like and after which I feel good.
Wild berries are my number one. Unfortunately I cannot eat them throughout the whole year.  :'(
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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2011, 12:45:38 am »
The durian pictures are lovely.  Durians are delicious and expensive.

Now the rambutans are cheap when in season and there is just too much around at the top of the season.  Don't pig out on them as they contain a lot of sugar and can hit your teeth with tooth decay if you decide to eat kilos at a time.
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Offline laterade

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2011, 02:24:46 am »
Maybe that would help, but you might not live in the area.. it seems like there almost no wild foods here in the southwest..

Here in AZ, I am sure there is more food than we think.
There is medicine everywhere but as far as daily plant food goes all I can think of is mesquite pods and cactus fruit.
Unfortunately the blue man group will attack anyone found harvesting saguaro fruit on public land, still kinda worth it though.
Nonetheless, I am moving to somewhere with more wild game, there is some here but not too many.
I have actually heard reports of javelina in tempe (city area). If I see one  :o I might just kick off the shoes and rush it with a blade.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2011, 04:41:17 am »
The durian pictures are lovely.  Durians are delicious and expensive.

How much costs a kg of durian in the Philippines? In Thailand, Indonesia and Sri Lanka it's not really expensive.  

Quote
Now the rambutans are cheap when in season and there is just too much around at the top of the season.  Don't pig out on them as they contain a lot of sugar and can hit your teeth with tooth decay if you decide to eat kilos at a time.

I think there’s no problem with the sugar in fruits because it is associated in complex forms with minerals, vitamins, micro-nutrients and several other components. The  problem is the white industrial sugar which is almost pure saccharose  (C6H22O11) and whose ravages are well described by the devil Morf in Chapter 7 of Günther Schwab outstanding book that I found on-line this morning:

Quote
"My second trusted ally in this decisive battle against human health is factory-white sugar."

"What have you got against sugar?" asked Groot. "So far as I'm aware, it's absolutely indispensable."

"You are quite right. Sugar, which plants form as a food and as a building material,
is a fundamental element in life. It is contained in sugar cane in quantities of 14 per cent
and in sugar beet in quantities of 17-20 per cent and is therefore highly valuable as a form
of nourishment. Indeed, it is indispensable, since it contains, in organic form, all the mineral-building
materials required for life
.
 
“In the factory, however, sugar is subjected to a long and complicated process.
The sugar juice is heated with slaked lime, which causes the destruction of calcium salts and protein.
Thanks to the alkaline reaction all vitamins are also destroyed. During further phases of the process
the sugar comes into contact with caustic calcium, carbonic acid, sulphur dioxideand sodium bicarbonate.
It is then cooked several times, cooled, crystallized and centrifuged.
The molasses are then de-sugared by means of strontium hydroxide.
 
"After this, the now lifeless mass is taken to the refinery. It is cleaned with calcium carbonate,
bleached with sulphuric acid, filtered with charcoal, and coloured with poisonous ultra-marine
or some other equally deleterious material. The end product of this is a chemical substance
known as sucrose C6H22O11 which is sold in the shops as powdered sugar, caster sugar,
granulated sugar, cube sugar and so on. Factory-made sugar has lost contact with all the vitalizing
salts and oxidization ferment, and is an artificial product wholly devoid of life, for the digestion of
which the human organism is not equipped. All vital and protective substances have either been
removed, de-natured or reduced to wholly negligible proportions. The end product of the factory
process has a concentration of 98.4 to 99.5 per cent and as such acts simply as a poison."

 
"That's a sweeping claim," said Rolande, "let's have some proofs of it."
 
Morf: "Ask a farmer what happens when he uses a manure that's concentrated to seven times
the strength the land can absorb. All plant life dies off. It's much the same with factory-white sugar.
It's an irritant to the mucous membrane, the glands, the blood vessels and the digestive organs; such
sugar is the only food which contains no water; it is deficiency food No. 1; it acts like a burglar in the
organism, brutally appropriating all the vital substances, trace elements and organic minerals which
are essential to its absorption into the body. Such sugar combines very easily with calcium and so, like
white flour, drains it away from bones and teeth.

 
"Moreover, it changes the quality of the saliva, so that teeth are also attacked from outside.
The fluids surrounding the teeth have a pressure of about 7 atmospheres. Factory-made sugar
has an osmotic pressure of 33.8 atmospheres over that of saliva. It therefore forces itself like
a wedge with an additional pressure of 27 atmospheres through all the cracks in the teeth.

Further, coarse substances that are rich in minerals stimulate intestinal movement; the fact
that they are wholly lacking in refined sugar serves most admirably to hinder the motion of
the bowel. The more sugar man absorbs, the more sluggish the bowel becomes, and there is
 a whole host of very potent diseases for which we can thank this sluggishness of the bowel."
 
Rolande: "There are means of combating that."
 
"That's just what's so magnificent about it," answered Morf. "Chemical laxatives complete
the work of undermining health from within. The disturbances caused by sugar, especially in
the bodies of children, are most satisfactory. Of the 80,000 little children which die annually
in France,more than half are the victims of sugar which has been put into their milk.
 
“It's not the germs that are contained in milk, but the sugar that brings indigestion
in its train as well as enteritis, acute diarrhoea, rest?lessness and nervous symptoms of every
 kind. Sugar, moreover, is the indirect cause of various infections from which children suffer;
so I do my utmost to persuade parents, uncles and aunts and all other kind-hearted relatives
that they're doing children a kindness by giving them plenty of sugar, sweets, chocolates and
so on. There isn't a single plant that could develop root, buds, stems, leaves, blossoms, let alone
fruit, from industrial sugar. You can store sugar for as long as you pleased without any risk.
The only things that can be stored thus for unlimited periods are dead things.

(…)

"Dental enamel is the hardest substance found in the body of any vertebrate.The teeth of
prehistoric animals have lain for a hundred thousand years in the ground without losing any
of their polish. Even healthy human teeth, when all other parts of the body have decayed, can
resist the influences of heat, frost, damp and dryness, bacteria and acids, over periods of thousands
of years. The tooth is a veritable bastion of life. When it falls sick, then life itself is in decline.
The Dainty Diet Fiend has honoured me with a particularly difficult task, namely the storming of this
bastion, and in all modesty I can say that I have succeeded in it."
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 04:46:47 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2011, 08:06:41 am »
What I meant is we shouldn’t exclude food from other areas than central tropical Africa...
I agree with that (if the food doesn't give the person any problems).

Quote
...because if we do so, we should exclude almost everything such as blackberries, ocean fish and shellfish, beef, mutton, seal, caribou, hen’s eggs, chestnuts, walnuts, hazelnuts, pine nuts, almost all vegetables and fruits.
If the rule is that the specific food species has to have originated in Stone Age East-Central Africa, then that would be correct, but if the rule is that it's OK to eat the equivalents of foods of Stone Age East-Central Africa, then there were berries, freshwater fish, ocean fish, vegetables and fruits in East-Central Africa, so that those that are descended from or very similar to those species might be considered OK, or at least potentially OK.

GCB had suggested that the fruits of SE Asia are very similar to the fruits of human ancestral habitat (presumably Stone Age East-Central Africa). Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know and he didn't provide any evidence to support this contention. It would be interesting to know. One thing to consider is what time period to consider--10,000 years ago, 30,000 years ago, 70,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, 1 million years ago, 2 millions years ago, etc.?

Art De Vany claims that the key period is around 70,000 years ago because there was a bottleneck of H. sapiens at that time. He says that there was an intensification of the ice age combined with a major volcanic eruption that darkened the sky, resulting in a dramatic drop in temperature so that East Africa wasn't tropical at the time and that only a few thousand H. sapiens survived, which he says they did by living by the shores of freshwater bodies of water and the sea coast and increasing intake of fish/shellfish/seafood to offset the decrease in available land mammals and fruits/veggies. Whether he's right or not, I don't know. He at least provided some details about why he thinks that fish/seafood is a key ancestral food beyond taste/smell/texture and current climate of the area. Come to think of it, Art is probably another decent source of info for answers to the original question of the topic of this thread.

Quote
Then, only safus, African insects and larvae, gazelle, giraffe, zebra, hippopotamus and elephant meat would be real paleo food and raw paleo nutrition would be totally impracticable.
According to De Vany, fish, shellfish and seafood were also consumed in Africa going back at least 70,000 years. I don't know when hominins first started inhabiting sea coasts and accessing seafood. I'll bet ocean shellfish were eaten as soon as seacoasts were inhabited, as freshwater shellfish were consumed before the habitation of seacoasts.

Quote
So, why exclude cempedak, cherimoya, soursop, sapote mamey, sapote chico, sapote blanco and durians, for example, if we include blackberries and beef as paleo?
I'm not excluding anything, but there it's possible to imagine plausible hypotheses for eating just Eurasian and African foods and their descendents as well as for eating just African and tropical foods and all those foods. There hasn't been a lot of research on the subject, so I think it's premature for people like both GCB and Art De Vany to draw solid conclusions (and the fact that their conclusions are different supports the need for more research), but it is interesting to see their different opinions, though it's not a huge deal to me either way.

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Yes, info about the origin of plant food is difficult to find, I realized that some years ago when I asked myself the same type of questions you currently raise. But I remember GCB has clarified his stand on that issue in a post here somewhere.  
Yes, as I mentioned, he backed off somewhat from his original claim. Perhaps he initially said more than he meant. It could be just coincidence that the writings of he and other Instinctos include so much on South/SE Asian tropical fruits, but it is an interesting coincidence.

I think there’s no problem with the sugar in fruits
It depends on the individual, the quantity consumed, and other variables, just as it does with animal fat and protein.

Yes. perhaps, who knows? What I meant is that we don't really know, ...
Precisely my point.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 08:13:16 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2011, 09:28:43 am »
On Rambutans:

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I think there’s no problem with the sugar in fruits because it is associated in complex forms with minerals, vitamins, micro-nutrients and several other components.

My wife thought so too.  But you should have seen how my wife gets addicted to these rambutans in the past 3 years.  She would order our maids to buy 10 kilos at a time.  She and our 3 kids would gorge on it the whole day.  Probably finish off the 10 kilos in 2 or 3 days.  

Our 3rd child, the girl turned out to be the most carb sensitive and we blamed too much rambutan plus of course rice with her.  Tooth Decay.  Had her stop eating rice and fruit for some weeks to correct it. I even put her on zero carb diet for 3 days to stop a bad painful tooth decay infection.

And then put her on a strict quota of rambutan eventually, only 2 rambutans at breakfast when in season.  The boys get a quota of 5 rambutans a day when in season. (I'm sure they cheat when I'm not looking).

I myself will eat some rambutan, but I like lanzones more which comes out in the same season.

Seriously, I put rambutan in the controlled quantity list for my kids due to the tooth decay aspect of it.  

Durians, eat as much as we can afford.

Durians in manila cost 120 to 150 per kilo with the shell.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:37:02 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2011, 09:34:11 am »
Speaking of berries, btw, there are berries native to Africa that still grow wild there today, such as miracle berries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synsepalum_dulcificum) and chocolate berries (Vitex spp, http://www.ihavenet.com/Africa-Wild-Fruits-of-Africa-Potent-Weapon-Against-Malnutrition.html). Berries are one of six staple food categories of the Hadza identified by scientists (Sex Differences in Food Preferences of Hadza Hunter-Gatherers, http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP07601616.pdf). The Hadza live in East-Central Africa, just south of what is supposed to be the cradle of humanity.

See also "The quest for food" by Paleo blogger Dr. BG at http://nephropal.blogspot.com/2010/08/quest-for-food.html.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 12:08:18 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2011, 09:56:43 am »
For people that are raw paleo omnivores, of course it makes little sense to fret COMPLETELY over how many degrees something is different than our ancestors because there would be little else to eat. The problem however, is obvious with such ridiculous methodologies that suggest taste is any factor at all in selecting healthful food, when we know that foods have been altered to enhance certain characteristics, and environments have shifted and tools allow us to gather much more than what can be achieved in nature. Once we know which foods are really natural through research, we can began to understand that criticisms of sugars or any other thing very much has nothing to do with just what has come from extracting things form plants themselves and cooking, but is fundamentally out of wack with how humans would have eaten year round.

People actually IN nature ate a certain way based on their requirements to be fit enough to actually acquire that food and survive, not sit around leisurely and be able to eat whatever to fuel those requirements. They unquestionably ate the food that was available based on their environment and sometimes whatever they could find. They ate a variety of things that even to contemporary raw-paleos might seem repulsive and had functions like bark , or bugs, or bitter stuff. Knowledge and research from DeVany, Vitalis etc..will state (inconclusively) how and what people might have ate in those regions and times, which means that those diets constructed from such(if one wished to emulate a diet) are far more conducive to choosing foods than those foods which were not even around prior to the age of agriculture or in any abundance. This just one of many reasons why it can make way more sense to eat wild rice over an orange.

If one wants to avoid hypocrisy in criticizing all things neolithic, only then can they not eat pretty much ANY fruits and domesticated meats and be taken seriously. Everyone else just has to choose the most healthy,pastured, or wild foods they can gather to fit their idea of a proper diet. In a weird way, the zero-carb cooked ground-beef eater can be proved based on research to be far more accurate representation of a healthy 'paleo' diet, than a diet constructed of any variety of foods in the paleo pyramid. Even people that might criticize such a diet like Sisson or Dr.Harris, or Aajonus, they would still agree on principle that it would be 'less-flawed' than eating a diet so far off the spectrum of our ancestors just because all those random foods fit under fruit, vegetable, or meat.

 

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