Author Topic: Best form of paleo for bowel health?  (Read 32487 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2011, 10:47:04 am »
phil you need help man, this is not an acceptable way to correspond with someone. just looking at below is enough without this above mess..there was nothing addressed to you but you chose to bring our own personal crap in. you were either bothered that I pointed out you were wrong, or some kind of insecurity as to whether this concept is helpful or not. end of story. bullshit is an appropriate term for people who try to engage in concepts they don't understand and have 0 experience with or knowledge about. For the record no these arn't woods gravity hydrotherapy units, not remotely. notice the lack of gravity except in the diagram which is not the same either. so you don't know what the thing even looks like.

I still consider colonics to be fancy, more-thorough enemas, which we'll just have to agree to disagree on I guess, and if it worked for you, then congrats.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:52:23 am by KD »

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2011, 10:49:36 am »
phil you need help man...
Spare me the psychological analysis. If you don't like my opinions, don't read my posts. It's a free country. If you post on a public forum you should expect that some people are going to at times express opinions that don't jibe with yours. If you can't handle that, then a public forum may not be your bag.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2011, 10:54:26 am »
Spare me the psychological analysis. If you don't like my opinions, don't read my posts. It's a free country. If you post on a public forum you should expect that some people are going to at times express opinions that don't jibe with yours. If you can't handle that, then a public forum may not be your bag.

phil its not a expression of opinions. you took it personally and now you are trying to spin it some other crazy way. the fact is you don't have knowledge on this subject matter but you chose to weigh in on it anyway. Now that I point that out, you are the one that can't handle it and are continuously throwng out this "if you don't like it do this". this is the definition of passive aggressive.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 03:18:14 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 11:00:30 am »
You assumed wrongly again. I thought of something that might help. I've noticed that you tend to get ticked off if someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours on one of your strongly held beliefs. If a post of yours is meant to be a private communication to just one other person that no one else is supposed to comment on with the slightest bit of disagreement, or if any difference of opinion is going to upset you, then perhaps a private message would be a more appropriate form of communication in those cases. And that's not to be passive aggressive, that's called trying to find something that will help you avoid this annoying behavior. Would you prefer an aggressively hostile response? Are you trying to annoy me enough that you tweak one out of me in a pot-stirring way?

If you're going to cry "passive aggressive" any time that someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours on one of your soap box issues, that's going to get real old. Actually, it has already gotten old.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 11:07:04 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 11:18:07 am »
I thought of something that might help. I've noticed that you tend to get ticked off if someone expresses an opinion that differs from yours on one of your strongly held beliefs.

phil explain to me (perhaps in a private message) where exactly I got 'ticked off' or what my beliefs are exactly? I said you have absolutely no idea what a colonic is, and this is true. I said your personal experience with cassia fistula or colonoscopy is irrelevant, and it is because you don't understand the basic premise. That isn't being nasty. I don't think anyone reading my comments about colonics would read anything as an attack on you. Every post you've contributed since I commented has had no accurate information and has ONLY consisted of drama or attempts basically to discredit what i'm saying while looking like a fool honestly. That might be hurtful but when I say things like that to me that is not an 'attack' its just true and measurable. See if you can get anyone to disagree.


Sorry if this upsets you. [passive aggressive]
OK, I think that moves you up form passive aggressive to qualify for openly aggressive ;), which I respect more but can still be distracting from constructive discourse. I prefer to leave emotion out of things and deal straight-forwardly with the facts. If that's considered passive aggressive, then so be it. I don't care for drama and I'm not swayed by emotion. I hope this explains things. I can't think of a way to put it more plainly and politely.

PP

passive is ok. openly aggressive is ok. i'm aggressive all the time. I think leaving out all emotion is something that seems sort of perfectionistic. I'm emotional by default as a person but I don't think i'm that passionate here, I mentioned I did colonics three years ago and am describing the process. In general I do seem to get in the same argument over and over and its usually just me defending the idea that theres more than one way to think about such things. In this instance, colonics are extremely unfavorable in RAF communities, so I have to claim that accepting they might be useful is certainly a minority 'open minded' stance.

 Its fairly not believable that you aren't emotionally invested here. The thing is is much of what you are writing is dishonest. The very form of passive aggressiveness means here is something that seems passive but is actually nasty so its dishonest. "I've thought of something that might help. YOU have a problem" "I'm happy for you. " "Sorry if this upsets you.", "then congrats. " These arn't genuine comments so yeah you should say things things like, "you are full of yourself" or just "fuck you". of course that is better because it gets direct to what you are trying to say anyway.

even this idea that you knew what the thing was..you obviously googled it and then didn't even grab the right thing which was precisely the model I mentioned in the other article as being damaging and giving a bad rap to the process. I understand pointing this out will only antagonize you further, but even you should be able to sort out the facts here. if it was any other issue you wouldn't approve of someone talking so much..with so little perspective on the issue.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 03:20:13 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2011, 09:58:24 pm »
    I've had colonics, in more than one country, in more than one ocean's distant thousands of miles offshore island, by more than one gender and here in the US.  Sometimes they helped.  Sometimes they didn't, but they never physically injured me.  I wish they helped every time.  I like RAF so much better.  I don't need colonics while I eat RAF.  My bowels always function as needed.  I can't offhand think of an RAF that could constipate me, not one that I've eaten in quantity.  I've tried all I can.

    I've performed colonic irrigations on other people too, even on a very ill naturopathic doctor.  I helped.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2011, 10:27:52 pm »
I don't need colonics while I eat RAF.  My bowels always function as needed.  I can't offhand think of an RAF that could constipate me, not one that I've eaten in quantity.  I've tried all I can.


yeah I havn't experienced any constipation one single time on this diet, or in the last 5 years since starting with colonics to correct such things. I had pretty bad constipation in the past which would lead to other problems like headches and such.

Transitioning to a RAF diet seems to cause infrequent bowel movements for just about everyone(including myself). This isn't the same thing as constipation but when coupled with such and twisted/weak bowels it can be pretty destructive...as one of the only real methods for removing toxins coming out from such an extreme shift is through the bowel. Alot of this stuff can become reabsorbed or is just plan uncomfortable of course.

I don't really think about colonics much myself either anymore but I have been thinking with some other posts recently that its probably the only decisive thing that has really helped (other than diet). i mean..its takes me all of three seconds to have a bowel movement (in a crouch/squat) position eating basically no fiber. One of the other major things colonics do is actually restore a more natural peristalsis which is ruined by years of going to the bathroom by straining, its a cycle.

I just recently seemed to get the remaining kinks out with a water fast. My abs (which have a fair amount of muscle and not much else down there) were visually misaligned and a few days after the fast and targeted re feeding I had like a 25 inch bowel movement that was like two inches thick. Followed immediately by some other disgusting gunk. my abs are symmetrical now.

Offline Löwenherz

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2011, 12:50:06 am »
I just recently seemed to get the remaining kinks out with a water fast. My abs (which have a fair amount of muscle and not much else down there) were visually misaligned and a few days after the fast and targeted re feeding I had like a 25 inch bowel movement that was like two inches thick. Followed immediately by some other disgusting gunk. my abs are symmetrical now.

Sounds really like HUGE amounts of gunk.

KD, if I remember correctly you have been on a fruit based diet in the past. Did you have any digestive problems during this time? Did this 'gunk' build up in your intestines before or after your fruit based diet?

I'm curios because I have the feeling that my vlc meat based diet leads to some buildup in my gi tract. From time to time I feel the desire to eat 2.478 kg of papayas to 'clean out' the whole tube.

Löwenherz

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2011, 01:36:05 am »
KD, if I remember correctly you have been on a fruit based diet in the past. Did you have any digestive problems during this time? Did this 'gunk' build up in your intestines before or after your fruit based diet?

yeah, but the large "plaster cast" seemed mostly to just be new waste. I ate a bunch of whole egg and green (watery) florida avocado to ease back into meat, but I had been having some thin and messy/disconnected movements over the last 6 months - so it was good to see. The thing after looked pretty funky like a ton of lentils or something and was seemingly not food. i took photos..

I started doing the colon stuff after I transitioned to a raw vegan diet in early 06'. I didn't really know what I was doing (by raw vegan standards - whatever that means - but certainly lots of poor combing) and just had massive bowel issues which were exacerbated by previous experiments with other veg diets heavy in beans and things. Prior to that I had alot of various illness and stuff related or at least tied with poor bowel health I assume.

I switched to mostly fruits ~ 8 months later just because the diet I was doing wasn't working calorically. I always eliminated fine on a fruit diet ( I had already done quite a few of these treatments). Eventually I ditched doing the treatments and I seemed to thrive in some ways and then after a year or so I really got hit hard and quick. Personally I believe had I continued doing them I wouldn't have been stewing in as much waste and wouldn't have crashed as bad as I did. Without fat in particular there doesn't seem to be much a vehicle for one to remove waste stirred up with the fruits. I went back and did a bunch ~ when I started integrating animal stuff in my diet

----

I'm curios because I have the feeling that my vlc meat based diet leads to some buildup in my gi tract. From time to time I feel the desire to eat 2.478 kg of papayas to 'clean out' the whole tube.
Löwenherz


The thing i've been mulling around is whether some  ind of cleanses (food or otherwise) are helpful on this diet in very much the same way as with the fruit diet. I believe the animal fats on VLC should carry a good amount of this stuff through the bowel...but I don't know anymore. I'm definitely not saying colonics or any non-food cleanses are necessary, just that they might be helpful. I also think certain foods are more helpful then others with not all diets under LC umbrella being great for bowel health.

I like alot of the little kinds of food 'cleanses' and stuff myself. Basically my main point was if someone is looking to actually re-shape their intestines (and not necessarily cleanse debris from the bowel) filling it with water or attempting to let it reform during fasting seem to be the major assets. The former just seems more safe to me for peoples whose bowels arn't actually moving the stuff around on the fast.

Offline alycia

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2011, 02:24:30 am »


I'm curios because I have the feeling that my vlc meat based diet leads to some buildup in my gi tract. From time to time I feel the desire to eat 2.478 kg of papayas to 'clean out' the whole tube.

I've read that most and i mean most (i don't remember if it was 95% but it was close) of uncooked protein is absorbed by the body the rest is turned to ash as it moves into the colon.  I recently listened to an interview on "Fiber MEnace" about this topic and the doctor behind that book also noted that protein, carbs, and fats are nearly 100% absorbed it's fiber that is not.  Poo is mainly dead cells, ash, and bacteria and then if you eat food that did not get digested (Fiber) it is in the poo. 
Pineapple really helps clean you out, better than papaya for me  ;)



I switched to mostly fruits ~ 8 months later just because the diet I was doing wasn't working calorically. I always eliminated fine on a fruit diet ( I had already done quite a few of these treatments). Eventually I ditched doing the treatments and I seemed to thrive in some ways and then after a year or so I really got hit hard and quick. Personally I believe had I continued doing them I wouldn't have been stewing in as much waste and wouldn't have crashed as bad as I did. Without fat in particular there doesn't seem to be much a vehicle for one to remove waste stirred up with the fruits. I went back and did a bunch ~ when I started integrating animal stuff in my diet
----
KD - what is your diet??
I'm guessing raw lowcarb not much fruit and veg? 
I just started on this forum, not familiar with you yet  -\,
I also was raw vegan for awhile - then looked into Wai diet for bowel reasons but read so much conflicting things about it.  It seems like it may NOT be worth the expense all that fruit sugar can take on ones body and teeth. 
Were you on the 80/10/10 diet in your high fruit days.  I have experimented with that and really had decent BM's on it but you know i think we need some meat and eggs to thrive! 


I also think certain foods are more helpful then others with not all diets under LC umbrella being great for bowel health.

Ok so what food is not helpful?  I want to make sure i don't over do it b/c i don't see myself doing a water fast - more reasons than i need to get into here but i just am not in the place to do one  :(
 
Basically my main point was if someone is looking to actually re-shape their intestines (and not necessarily cleanse debris from the bowel) filling it with water or attempting to let it reform during fasting seem to be the major assets. The former just seems more safe to me for peoples whose bowels aren't actually moving the stuff around on the fast.

How about really simple foods vita-mixed - if one can not fast and does not have a juicer, would this be just as good as juicing fast? 

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2011, 03:04:26 am »
I didn't follow those programs specifically because I actually met alot of the gurus and associated people which was reason enough not to follow what they say..I just didn't know how to make a raw diet work successfully and thats what I came up with. I figured I could balance it with more greens or whatever other thing I could come up with. I guess it was similar. I would do things like just eat watermelon for weeks and stuff. no nuts/seeds and a few avocado every once in awhile.

btw for people that do eat a lot of fruit. watermelon can sort of function as a 'poor man's enema'. you fast all day and then at night you eat as much seeded watermelon as you can without vomiting and you are almost ensured a bowel movement.


Ok so what food is not helpful?  I want to make sure i don't over do it b/c i don't see myself doing a water fast - more reasons than i need to get into here but i just am not in the place to do one  :(
 
How about really simple foods vita-mixed - if one can not fast and does not have a juicer, would this be just as good as juicing fast?  



I left that purposely vague to avoid more arguments :)

you'll do ok. mostly what I mean is having the idea that just because you are LC or ZC and avoiding fiber and blah blah that all your intestinal stuff will correct itself due to such an awesome program. It takes a truly experimental mind...and then you should find the right things. I guess the only thing I can say is something like eggs for instance I don't really see as the greatest food on a nutritional level, but its useful for this stuff...


one of the perks with eating this way is theoretically it should be all easy to digest, so this would make some kind of blended fast of veg/fruits to not as necessary. I havn't been juicing for awhile myself (i've thought about reconsidering but thats another topic), but was speaking of around doing the colonics. I don't have a juicer either so i'd just go to a health food store or someplace like that if i was doing them.

Offline alycia

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2011, 03:18:43 am »
Thanks KD - your funny  ;D

And yes watermelon is wonderful for needing to get things moving again :) 

Just a side note - it was back when i read "fiber menace" that got me really rethinking my very plant "fiberous" raw food diet,=.  Of course i would lower my fiber intake and the BM's stopped moving (dang fiber done me wrong all these years!).  Now i am looking at foods that the body can take in without having much waste product to irritate the colon, yet still move when it needs too. 

 

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2011, 07:28:10 am »
Yes, KD is funny, which is one thing I enjoy about his posts.

KD, if you didn't take umbrage at my original post and I'm allowed the option of a passive response (or what I would prefer to call reasonable, fact-based discussion), then that's great and I hope that means we can move on now, because I'm not interested in debating colonics. I tried to make that clear, but apparently failed, which wouldn't be the first time. :) I did at least get something positive out of the colonics topic, which is the realization that my bowels have been sufficiently improved when I stick to a somewhat Primal, easily-digestible style of eating that I don't have a need for colonics right now anyway <<knock on wood>>. So thanks for indirectly triggering that reminder about something I have to celebrate.

Your latest assumptions were again off target, but I'm not going to waste your and my time responding to them, because that only seems to further antagonize you, which is not my objective. There's no way to prove a negative anyway. And don't worry, your remarks didn't bother me--I give you the benefit of the doubt that you have good intentions and I don't see a point in letting what someone else says about me bother me anyway, though it may frustrate me if there's something substantive I wish to discuss and assumptions or personal commentary get in the way of that. Sometimes that impatience with what I see as useless verbiage may come across as hostility when it isn't intended to be.

As for your suggestion that I try saying stuff like "you are full of yourself" or "fuck you", I consider injecting strong emotion and personal attacks into a discussion to be a distraction and a waste of time, and I also try to bear in mind that there are lots of other folks who read this forum besides you and me. Who knows, maybe some nuns and innocent little children even read this forum. :o Perhaps it will help if I explain that I prefer the reasonable styles of folks like Lex Rooker, Denise Minger, Loren Cordain, Robb Wolf, Jimmy Moore and so on (and I know that the quality of my posts is nowhere near as good as theirs', but I do admire their tone and hope that a little bit of it may rub off on me). I know their style is not everyone's forte, but I also know that I can't please everyone, nor am I interested in winning popularity contests, and so I don't try to do that and instead try to stay true to myself, which I consider more important.

If I can't get my message across without anger or insults, then it's probably not a message worth getting across. That's something my father taught me and that I try to live by (but don't always succeed--no one's perfect :D ), and it also serves as a way of avoiding wasting steam and time on issues I don't consider hugely important. If someone's life was in jeopardy and all I had to do to save them would be to say "fuck you," then I would gladly do so, but I have little use for the hot style of Internet debate, so if you want such you'll have more luck trying it with someone else more game. Some might say that I'm too old fashioned on this, but I'd consider that a compliment. ;) On a related tangent, I wonder how much swearing, cursing and insulting there is in traditional societies vs. modern societies? I suspect that there's some in both, with more in the newer societies.

Moving on to a topic you raised in your post that I AM quite interested in, I agree completely with you on "the idea that theres more than one way to think about such things" and I've enjoyed your posts to Tyler and others on this. I also find that an experimental approach works for me. I'm generally not a fan of demanding 100% adherence to things. It smacks too much of dogma to me. For example, like Lex I don't think it's necessary for everyone to eat 100% raw to obtain and maintain good health (nor am I saying that there aren't any people who do have to adhere 100% to rawness--I'm open minded on this and most subjects). I've taken heat for my opinion on that in the past, which doesn't bother me, because I know that some folks at every forum demand 100% fealty to whatever the main principles of the forum are, so I expect that, and I try to be respectful of the principles even if I don't think that everyone needs to abide by them 100% all of the time. I also agree with your related idea that sometimes doing something that is not 100% raw Paleo can even be therapeutic for some folks, at least in the short term. Like you, I've also taken heat in the past for that view.

I really do offer you congratulations on your stunning success with diet and colonics. Congrats on the improved ab definition too. My own abs have also gradually improved in definition and a bulging hernia (it wasn't quite torn yet, thank goodness, but my physician had said that it was on the verge) is almost fully healed and re-tightened, which I didn't think possible! I don't know why you seem to doubt me on the congratulations--besides, why should anything I or anyone else says keep you from being happy in your success? Regardless of whether the congratulations are honest or not (and they are honest--I may engage in good-natured blarney now and then, but I'm terrible at serious lies, so I gave up on trying to do them in my early childhood...I would make a terrible spy :D -- I'm embarrassingly bad at even white lies when it comes to serious lies :( ). You've earned the congratulations, so I hope you will revel in them! If I were you, I would wallow in them like a pig in fresh mud. Hee hee! :)

Transitioning to a RAF diet seems to cause infrequent bowel movements for just about everyone(including myself). This isn't the same thing as constipation but when coupled with such and twisted/weak bowels it can be pretty destructive...as one of the only real methods for removing toxins coming out from such an extreme shift is through the bowel. Alot of this stuff can become reabsorbed or is just plan uncomfortable of course.
Well put and thanks for making that point so brilliantly which I have tried to make in the past. Many folks seem to assume that if someone is talking about constipation then they are only talking about frequency, which is not the case for me. The only way I found I could help people understand was to refer to the useful Bristol stool chart, which is not about frequency.

Quote
one of the perks with eating this way is theoretically it should be all easy to digest
Yes, that's much of the gist behind my current experment of trying to eat foods that are easy to digest and presumably easy to poop out as well. :) I find that in my case I need to balance this with the contrary factor that some easily digested foods tend to muck up my teeth and gums. Lately it seems like it's more the raw eggs which help most, rather than the mashed avocadoes like I originally suspected.

Thanks for the tip on watermelon. I'll try to remember to try eating more of that this summer. That is easily digestible for me, so that fits in well with my current experiment.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 07:39:21 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,904
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2011, 08:06:53 am »
I know their style is not everyone's forte

Hey some nice words in that epic post Phil, but here did you use the right one? forte?

I may engage in good-natured blarney now and then, but I'm terrible at serious lies

I used to tell constant white lies, always revealing the truth shortly after, before there could be any consequence. This allowed safe honing of my lying skills and I've become very confident at it, and it can be quite useful in certain situations.. but with great power comes great responsibility ;) and I think carefully before using my powers. I've even used my skills to make people think I've given them presents that they actually bought for themselves xD
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2011, 08:17:41 am »
Well the point is to be direct with what you mean. If you don't mean anything profane one just says what they mean. No single person here knows all the mysteries of this stuff, but (speaking generally) its very easy to just throw either ideas or criticisms out there from behind a keyboard. When people are pressed they tend to reveal alot of gaps in whether they've actually figured it out to the degree they thought they did - even for themselves. Does sound a bit polizei I guess...

I think the thing is..is that having respect for someone else's point of view goes both ways and its not just about non-engagement. In a way engaging actively with the others persons issue is a sign of respect. Unless one is truly passive..or absent (non-engaged)..this "i'm not arguing with you but this and this" kind of thing is usually going to come across as a sign of disrespect..particularly to acknowledging the issue of is of any worth.

Its like..

after you spent alot of time energy and consideration in what you wrote if I responded with something like "Thanks for sharing" or "good for you".

like I've said before, the incredibly capacity for people here to have normal discussions after pretty cutthroat arguments/resentments shows quite alot about this lifestyle or whatever...so yeah..no problem.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2011, 08:46:02 am »
Well, KD, nothing I said was meant to be a criticism. If I'm not particularly intrigued by something that's not meant to imply that I'm criticizing it or whoever mentioned it. Of course, that doesn't stop me from briefly sharing my initial impression if it's related to an overall topic that I'm interested in, like gastrointestinal health. Perhaps it should. If I knew it would cause any bad feelings I wouldn't have commented. I can well understand the grief you've probably been given in the past re: colonics, so I can understand your thinking that I was trying to be critical. Who knows, maybe I'll even try a colonic some day, it's just not something that I'm interested in right now. I might have been more open to it when my hernia was nearing the breaking point. I'm probably a bit prejudiced against colonics given my childhood enema experience, not that it was traumatic or anything, just not my favorite pastime. LOL Maybe I should have tried to enjoy it like that ol' kook Dr. Kellogg. LOL I know that colonics are not the same thing, but they just remind me too much of it, and in my mind, whether rightly or wrongly, they're in the same broad general ballpark. Yes, I know you disagree, so be it. No worries.

Heck, I eat rotted meat and stinkfish. How in the world could I make fun of someone who did colonics? LOL I love the word stinkfish, BTW. God bless the Inuit or whoever came up with that one. :D

I try to say what I mean, except that sometimes my hands type one thing while my brain means another. I guess it's a mental handicap or maybe I'm just a kookoo-bird meself. :P Ugh, even after I reread and edit things a couple times I still miss stuff like forte. ;D

Quote
like I've said before, the incredibly capacity for people here to have normal discussions after pretty cutthroat arguments/resentments shows quite alot about this lifestyle or whatever...so yeah..no problem.
Cool. Yeah, I don't tend to take things personally and I don't really comprehend why having a different opinion on something is often viewed as a criticism or even insult. I think in part it's because I had cousins I liked and admired who loved to debate about all sorts of things with each other without ever getting really angry. Debate was seen as a pleasure rather than an incitement to fisticuffs. Maybe it's an Irish thing--sort of like the blarney, though more generally a gift with words and a love of a challenging debate--I don't know. Only problem is, I don't have nearly the gift of the blarney as my cousins do. ;D So I enjoy discussion and debate but lack the skill. I hope you can tolerate it, I don't envy your having to try to figure out my ramblings. Another handicap I have is being way too verbose (if that's the right word) with the written word. My apologies to everyone about that. Luckily I type pretty fast.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Löwenherz

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2011, 04:41:37 pm »
I've read that most and i mean most (i don't remember if it was 95% but it was close) of uncooked protein is absorbed by the body the rest is turned to ash as it moves into the colon.

That sounds good, theoretically.

But what happens with undigested animal fats? In my case, raw, hard, white suet from grain-fed animals clogged my whole gi tract. That happened during my insane zero carb experiments four years ago and I still can feel the damage. These fats damaged my small intestines and one of the bad results was fructose malabsorption which I never had before in my life. Today I still can't eat watermelon and other fruits high in fructose. Aajonus recommends butter, coconut cream and eggs, but the word suet cannot be found in his books. Obviously he knows that suet can be too hard to digest for some people. In one interview he even said that he believes that raw suet causes atherosclerosis.

Most people report perfect digestion on fruit based diets. Hmm, something to think about...

Löwenherz


Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2011, 04:51:35 pm »
Loewenherz, where does Aajonus say this online?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Löwenherz

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2011, 05:19:58 pm »
Loewenherz, where does Aajonus say this online?

He said this in an interview round about three years ago. Unfortunately I don't have the web-adress any more.

What do you think why Aajonus doesn't talk about fatty cuts of meat in his books?

Löwenherz

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2011, 11:31:37 pm »
That sounds good, theoretically.

But what happens with undigested animal fats? In my case, raw, hard, white suet from grain-fed animals clogged my whole gi tract. That happened during my insane zero carb experiments four years ago and I still can feel the damage. These fats damaged my small intestines and one of the bad results was fructose malabsorption which I never had before in my life. Today I still can't eat watermelon and other fruits high in fructose. Aajonus recommends butter, coconut cream and eggs, but the word suet cannot be found in his books. Obviously he knows that suet can be too hard to digest for some people. In one interview he even said that he believes that raw suet causes atherosclerosis.

Most people report perfect digestion on fruit based diets. Hmm, something to think about...

Löwenherz



I guess I left out the most important part which was the kinks and abdominal stuff definitely was far before any 'diet'. not sure if it was from birth or whatever...but definitely going back many years. So even the years of 'pure' diet, the extended weeks of "mono-meals" and short fasting (although I never did more than 7 days) were ever much to correct such things. Alot of people claim to have good digestion on fruit diets but then again much of what they eliminate usually still looks very much like fruit (and veg). The more 'pure' they become the less tolerant of ANY combinations. I'm not going to say there is no truth to this 'sensativity' but theres some excuses abound in that concept, particularly then when it comes to digesting animal fats for energy (not that many high fruit dieters are involved in this).

as for AV, he may indeed have a negative take on animal sourced fats. I've heard from some folks that he pushes dairy and cc. and stuff because these are more acceptable or tastier foods. I believe this is 100% not true. I think I had caught that interview. I do think alot of the bias against animal fats (and particularly suet and even some non fatty organs) is that its virtually impossible to acquire these unfrozen. he's pretty militant about that. He does offer these things through some of his suppliers and I know he recomends them to some prople. I think his other belief is that even some grass fed suppliers the animals can store 'toxins' in their fat, organs, and bone marrow. The other major reason being that his specific fats would do various positive things in the body for a modern person, but that of course an ancient person would just eat the clean animal fat for sustenance. Personally on taste I find fresh animal fat to be the tastiest, followed by suet with all the primal stuff being fairly unpalatable but helpful. cc. tastes like dentist toothpaste or something..very weird, although probably not any worse than coconut oil for me.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 01:36:49 am by TylerDurden »

Offline alycia

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2011, 04:16:37 am »
KD-
That is very encouraging you were able to reverse it  :)
yes for me the MD said i was born with it, but i am not 100% sold on that.  I think diet leading to chronic constipation led to more twist and turns than normal.

When you say "mono meals" - what did you mono meal? 
I would like to give it a try!
I have done that with fruit in the past, but am pretty sure you are referring to more primal diet? 

I have been following your suggestion about eggs and veg. juice (but i vita-mix) for my meals.  I am getting hungry a lot?  I think b/c i filled up on fiber for so long raw eggs and some veg is not holding me over  :(
If there is any suggestions on this let me know  :)

I listened to AV on oneradionetwork.com, patrick timpones website.  If anyone has not listened to those they are always available to hear, you just need to register with the site.


Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2011, 06:33:30 am »
KD-
That is very encouraging you were able to reverse it  :)
yes for me the MD said i was born with it, but i am not 100% sold on that.  I think diet leading to chronic constipation led to more twist and turns than normal.

When you say "mono meals" - what did you mono meal?  
I would like to give it a try!
I have done that with fruit in the past, but am pretty sure you are referring to more primal diet?

Well, I was speaking of mono-meals negatively in that way. I was saying that I did all the 'right things' including some more extremes they recommend for such and I didn't have much of any significant improvement with my bowel health that way. There may in fact have been - I can't claim that time was all  that period was completely destructive - but if there was any clean outs and things these were accompanied by other negative that are far more complex than deficiency and have taken a pretty big toll. So I think short fruit fasts and eating pineapple and papaya and stuff like that might have a use...for the time being at least I resonate with the low sugar, low fiber model.  There are alot of benefits probably to simplifying meals and mono-eating, but sometimes these are overemphasized, and there are times where combing food is beneficial. One of the real extremes out there is a bias against mixing extra animal fat with protein..which seems to be a requirement for many people for basic success on this diet.

I have been following your suggestion about eggs and veg. juice (but i vita-mix) for my meals.  I am getting hungry a lot?  I think b/c i filled up on fiber for so long raw eggs and some veg is not holding me over  :(

I doubt it. Its not really sustainable to have a low fiber and low fruit raw diet that doesn't include a significant quantity of pure fat and animal protein. For me, I generally wouldn't blend/strain vegetables. I might have a salad in the evenings two nights a week and I guess I could blend that - but it sort of loses its entertainment value. I wouldn't mix whole veg (blended) with eggs. Sorry if that was confusing.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2011, 08:53:51 am »
AV mentions bone marrow multiple times in recipes in RFLWD, so based on this and what Löwenherz reported, AV's problem is apparently not with all animal body fats, but just suet and maybe intramuscular fat. AV is also OK with raw butter and raw egg yolks:

From RFLWD: "A diet of mainly raw meat, raw eggs and dairy proved to be safe, easily digested and the most nutritious."

From WWTLWD:
> "Raw fat, like raw butter, cleanses, lubricates, protects and fuels the body easily. Whereas heated and pasteurized fat often store as cellulite or other hard-to-use or non-utilizable waxy fat."
> "a diet resplendent in raw fat is so important to excellent health. People who eat diets low in fat often develop immune deficiencies sometime in their lives."


"Stanley Bass claims that the lecithin in egg yolks appears to counteract the development of cholesterol deposition in arteries. According to Aajonus Vonderplanitz, raw fat is needed more than any other nutrient, even more than carbohydrates and protein. Raw fat not only functions as a fuel supply, but it also cleanses, lubricates and protects the body." - Susan E. Schenck, The Live Food Factor: The Comprehensive Guide to the Ultimate Diet for Body, Mind, Spirit & Planet(Get the book.)

What does AV see as the difference between suet and intramuscular fat on one hand vs. marrow, butter and eggs on the other? I know the latter are softer and AV's emphasis is on easily-digestible foods, is that they key difference in his view? Why would raw suet and intramuscular fat be more likely to cause atherosclerosis than raw marrow, raw butter and raw egg yolks, in his view?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline KD

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,930
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2011, 09:07:21 am »
It may have a digestibility element but I'm pretty sure its mostly the quality/freshness/toxins thing. That these are the places (including bone marrow) where the animal would be storing environmental toxins. I know he offers these fresh (unfrozen) through particular suppliers that I guess he believes are healthier than even the standard grass-fed stuff, but it does seem like in general much of the things we might deem as the healthiest fats and organs and such are seen as rather unnecessary at best under such systems..at least on a regular basis.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Best form of paleo for bowel health?
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2011, 09:20:41 am »
It may have a digestibility element but I'm pretty sure its mostly the quality/freshness/toxins thing. That these are the places (including bone marrow) where the animal would be storing environmental toxins.
Yet he recommends bone marrow in RFLWD, so that's apparently not the key issue. :shrug:
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk