wine

[Haai]

Do you have a link for that source for raw mead please Haai?
Mead would keep better for my experiments and then I can be sure I am using a truly raw product.
Thanks.

http://www.detraay.com/index-nl.php?url=http%3A//www.detraay.com/page.php%3Fident%3D1%26header%3D5%26lang%3Deng%26lang%3D%26lang%3Deng

I have no idea if they ship to the US, but if they do I am sure it will cost a fortune. Here in NL the bottle made with normal honey (literal translation of bloemenhoning is flower honey) costs about 12 euros and the one made with heather honey about 14 euros.

I contacted the company via email asking about whether it has been heated or not. They said it never gets warmer than 40 C in order to keep all the valuable substances in the honey intact.

You will notice that the website is in Dutch. It seems if you click on the little British flag (or any of the other flags) in the top right corner to change the language, the mead disappears...quite strange.

[Haai]

@Haai: I notice that if I drink mead too many days in a row I start to develop a gunky film on my teeth and morning breath. I suspect that the carby liquid feeds the bacteria in my mouth. I'm more susceptible to issues from easily-digested carbs than most people.

I would also say that the carbs cause that gunky film on the teeth.

I havn't drank mead more than one or two days in a row, mainly because of the price. For one bottle of mead I can get 2 bottles of decent organic, no-sulphites-added red wine.

[raw-al]

@Raw Al:That would influence the data when some people are asked additional questions but not others, and possibly also suggest memories to the subject that did not actually happen. Some people are more suggestible than others. Just ask any hypnotist or hypnotherapist. What you're describing sounds more like clinical therapy than scientific research. Not that there's no value to it, but (as with surveys) clinical experience can only suggest hypotheses, not be considered proof or even solid evidence. If Dr. Amen is claiming that that is hard evidence, then I doubt that it has been peer reviewed.

Phil, Where is your peer reviewed scientific research to back your claims of raw alcohol being a healthy choice?

I at no point claimed that Dr Amen had done scientific research.

As far as false memory syndrome, that's a stretch. In fact false memory syndrome is surrounded by all kinds of silliness. He essentially asked all of his patients the same questions. If a person showed obvious signs of  brain damage he would ask more questions because one of the symptoms of brain damage is memory loss. This has nothing to do with alcohol.

[PaleoPhil]

It's possible you're swallowing more air when you drink hotter liquids.

Thanks for the thought--it's a possible factor I'll try to remember to watch, though I notice it even if the liquid is cold when I drink it--even iced. In reading about coffee, I learned that the hotter and longer it's roasted, the more acidic it becomes, which it occurs to me could be a factor in the belching with coffee and other beverages that involve heat in the process.

My question is whether it is just an issue of quantity. Half a bottle =  terrible reaction. 5 ounces =  positive reaction (as far as I can tell at this point with limited trial).

Maybe, though in my case I don't get that bad a reaction from my best-tolerated alcoholic beverage even if I drink 1.5 bottles worth (750 ml), though I fare better if I keep intake below 1 bottle (500 ml / 16.9 oz).

Phil - do you have sources where I could buy mead from? Mead would have an extended shelf-life unlike wine right?

Not in my home, LOL. Sorry, it's only sold in Vermont. I would look for local artisanal/craft mead, if there is any in your area.

A trick to help spot unpasteurized alcoholic beverages finally dawned on me. Tyler explained that you can tell unpasteurized (cask) ale by the metal wire and cork on the top. Then when I read that champagne is raw, I realized that it too has a wire and cork top. Then someone mentioned that unpasteurized hard cider also has wire and cork stoppers. It still took some days for it to fully dawn on me and start looking around in the liquor store and beer/wine/mead-selling markets for bottles with wires on the top to see what else is probably unpasteurized.

In using this trick I found a bottle-conditioned fig wine. I like figs, so I tried it. It tasted horrible, was extremely bubbly, and gave me gas and a mild feeling of malaise. No euphoric effect at all. I ended up dumping most of it out.

There are apparently unpasteurized alcoholic beverages that do not have wire/cork tops. Sierra Nevada claims that all of their brews are unpasteurized (http://jarticle.hubpages.com/hub/Unpasteurized_Beers), yet most of them do not have the wire/cork top. Sho Chiku Bai Nama Sake is claimed to be unpasteurized, yet it too does not have a wire/cork top. I think the wire and cork is only needed if the yeast is still alive and actively emitting gas, possibly causing pressure to build up and blow a standard cap off the bottle. It's possible to have no live yeast left in an unpasteurized beverage. It's apparently also possible for some critters that actively ferment to not cause a lot of pressure buildup from emitted gas, such as in kombucha, kefir and other fermented beverages sold in markets that don't have wire/cork tops. Blogger Seth Roberts recently reported that store-bought kombucha contains live critters that can be used as a starter for making your own, yet they don't have wire/cork tops. The wire/cork top is one clue, but not lack of it does not necessarily guarantee that the beverage is not unpasteurized, so Internet searching, checking labels and asking around also helps.

I suspect that some beverages with wire/cork tops could be heated--they could just add live yeast back after heating, so that it can bottle-condition (continue to ferment).

It's interesting that a pasteurized mead has less negative effects on me than several unpasteurized and bottle-conditioned alcoholic beverages, including the real ale I tried. Heat and bottle conditioning do not appear to be the only factors for me.

[raw-al]

I know it's a controversial topic, but I'm not afraid of controversial topics, and sometimes the most verboten things can be some of the most interesting. Take high meat, for example. Society regards that as disgusting and deadly, yet I learned from people at this forum like Tyler that it actually may be health-promoting. I also learned about raw ale from Tyler. Before that I wasn't aware that there were any raw alcoholic beverages. And I've learned a number of interesting things from you, Dorothy, on other topics besides this one.

If you check out the thread "Is alcohol good for us" reply # 4 fron Tyler here is what it says...

As I recall, the data concerned only a lessening of 2 of the 17 different types of heterocyclic amines, one of the 4 different types of toxins created by cooking. Plus, it wasn't alcohol per se which reduced the levels of toxins - it is already well-known that cooking in moisture reduces the levels of various heat-created toxins. That said, outside the moisture aspect, alcohol is itself a poison, so it's not a good idea to reduce the levels of some types of poisons by adding another, quite different type of poison.

[PaleoPhil]

If you check out the thread "Is alcohol good for us" reply # 4 fron Tyler here is what it says...

I had read that. Are you suggesting that I was trying to imply that Tyler thinks that real ale is healthy? I wasn't commenting on that--just reporting that he tipped me off about its existence, that's all, nothing more.

IIRC, he has said in the past something about real ale being less unhealthy than pasteurized beer and ale (I do hope he'll correct me if my memory is off), but that doesn't necessarily mean he thinks it's inherently healthy--there's a difference.

[Dorothy]

I checked Whole Foods today for mead and they said that they were looking into getting some but didn't have any. I DID see some bottles with cork and wire today. That's a good clue. Thanks Phil (and Tyler?). I got some hard apple cider as I've never tried it and I did recently put in an apple tree - so if we ever get more than two apples I might have something interesting to do with them if we like it. It's really too bad that the fig wine wasn't good as I am planting a bunch of fig trees and they do well here.

I tried doubling the wine to 10 ounces of the same kind that I was fine with at 5 ounces and it wasn't good. I mean - not really bad, but I could feel that it was not right for me and I shouldn't try that again. I'll try 6 ounces next time (of a different wine) to start to play with where that limit is. Wines (as much as I've been able to judge) in the past (as long as they are organic) all seem to effect me about the same. It's interesting Phil how you say that when a certain ferment is good for you, you feel fine even after a bottle and half. Do you get tipsy at that much? Do you think that the same good results as in the studies you sited would hold for any beverage besides wine? From what I remember it was red wine in particular that was talked about as being beneficially mostly.

[CitrusHigh]

The smoothies I make vary from day to day, but always contain 2-5 eggs, usually 3 or 4 though, it just depends on what's available from the coop that day and if I need to save some for family.

Otherwise they also contain banana, and/or raw honey or honey water, usually just one sugar source at a time, I prefer banana usually because it also thickens the brew, but honey has a wonderful flavor too. Sometimes raw milk or cream, usually I won't bother if all I have is pasteurized grassfed cream.

The other day I happened to be cutting up kidney while I was making the smoothie so I decided to toss in a chunk since I had heard of people making liver smoothies to get it in to their children raw. Couldn't taste any difference, though there were the odd fibery bit here and there, no big and I think it would be child approved if they didn't know it was in there.

Sometimes I do other things with my smoothies, but that is the typical brew.

[Dorothy]

The hard apple cider was truly disgusting. One sip and I backed up like I was running from it and Brian laughed out loud at the look on my face. It smelled and tasted truly like rotten apples. We had apple trees growing up and that was what I remember - the horrible smell. I bet I ate some as a kid and had the same reaction.

Maybe if I made my own or if it was with a good honey? Who knows - but that experiment sure failed.

I'll stick to fresh apples.

Whereas I had some organic grapes yesterday and noticed that a small amount (4-5 ounces) of wine actually made me feel better than the grapes and tasted better.

[Dorothy]

I want to report back on my findings. I've concluded that for me an occasional glass at a social occasion of 4-5 ounces of wine has little negative effects, but drinking any amount of wine every night over a period of time is most definitely a negative for me. It is much like dairy products and caffeine in that way. I feel very little immediate negative effects from having some and it can actually add to smoothing things socially and can create enjoyable tastes and serve transient positive purposes and even after months drinking it every night I wouldn't say it made me feel bad, but if used consistently creates definite negative imbalances to my system. I know this because when giving it up suddenly and completely after trying a period of drinking a glass every night my body felt much better generally. 

Too bad.   I really did hope that I could "party" (if you can call 4 ounces of wine a party) and still stay at peak - but it's really just not possible. I doubt that I am that different than others in this regard. It's really hard to give up the things that we enjoy and become so easily addicted to and I for one really wanted the research to prove that my party treats were actually good for me. I bet most of us do... so I am pretty sure that there will continue to be lots of research "proving" that these things are good for us. I would also like to add that perhaps these things are good for people on regular diets? I mean, wine is a digestive and the reservatrol might help battle the other negatives as well as balance the coffee and stresses etc. As raw paleos though we have a set the bar at a different height. I just think that it's not easy to be really honest with ourselves. I've tried to do just that.

I also tried special coffee with butter. It's exactly the same thing. I want it to be good for me - very much so - but the evidence is too clear to me that no amount of butter or how the coffee is processed changes the fact that in the long-run, coffee is depleting to my system.

Sugar, coffee, alcohol, dairy - they are all clearly addictive substances for me. They are things that I still will crave. As addictive substances I have taken tiny tastes here and there even when staying completely away from them - but always with the understanding that it has to be me running the show and not them, but after recent experiments I've actually decided to try staying completely away from any of them for a number of years to see with my present diet if the attraction will go away completely with a long enough hiatus without a morsel.

Always experimenting.

[goodsamaritan]

Thanks for sharing!

[Michelle]

Do not buy organic wines. They're full of sulphates.

Buy wine from New Zealand. They have the best pesticide standards.

[TylerDurden]

That's not true:-

http://www.ecovinewine.com/organic-sulfite-free-wines/

[PaleoPhil]

My experience suggests not to trust anyone's claims, nor one's own assumptions, but instead to test, test, test.

[cherimoya_kid]

My experience suggests not to trust anyone's claims, nor one's own assumptions, but instead to test, test, test.

it sucks that we live in a place and time where nutrition is so messed up.  "Test, test, test" is the worst position to have to be in.  It's a huge time-suck and energy-suck.

Oh well.  My good health is the reward, and the time I've spent researching and testing (and the time I still spend) is the cost.

[raw-al]

 

My experience suggests not to trust anyone's claims, nor one's own assumptions, but instead to test, test, test.

Phil, judging by your picture there you do a lot of testing ? Yes? 

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah