Author Topic: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked  (Read 42111 times)

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Offline Polyvore

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Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« on: September 23, 2012, 05:24:41 pm »
"There is only a small loss of nitrogen when bones are soaked in water
at room temperature, but the loss of salts is comparable with that at 100 C."
http://adc.bmj.com/content/9/52/251

Salts including iron, calcium and magnesium, are better extracted in cool to warm temperatures. I would imagine it is better to make a broth in a yogurt warmer (37 C) than it is to cook the bones! The 37 C would allow the marrow to seep out into the broth, but wouldn't cook.

Who would have known? Everyone just ASSUMES you need to cook bones to get the calcium into the water, but it seems it does it on its own without your stupid 'cooking help'. Here is to raw nutrition, again!

Offline letsdoiteczema

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 06:47:42 pm »
Wow! This is amazing info! Wow is all I can say.

So now I can just soak my leftover bones (after extracting marrow) in water?! and I can then drink the raw broth for calcium and minerals from bone? This is so awesome!

Thanks so much for sharing this! Now I can finally not feel guilty for dumping piles of marrow-less bones into the trash...and use them for some nutritional purposes.

I'll probably decide to soak the grass-fed beef bones in natural spring water for up to a day, just to make sure that most of the minerals have leeched into the water.

I can't get over how shocking this is - in a good way of course!
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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 10:54:02 pm »
I could be mistaken here, and I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, however, if I'm gathering correctly, it's saying that the solubility of nutrients FROM the bones TO the water is lower in the room temp water (which is as you would expect, intuitive) than in the boiled water. When you read 'loss' which is used constantly in the paper do not read it as "absolute loss or oxidation of nutrients" but instead as 'loss' of minerals from bone to water (solvent).

Still, cool to know that the minerals do indeed leech in to room temp water, I wonder how the type of water would affect solubility. ie distilled vs spring vs alkaline, etc

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 11:43:59 pm »
Thoth, well that's how Polyvore interpreted it too :p

It's saying that cooking the bones will extract more protein (gelatin), while soaking (not cooking) will extract slightly more minerals.

Offline Polyvore

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 06:29:13 am »
I thought the mineral loss was from the bone, so the higher the mineral loss, the better the broth yield.

Also, for egg eaters out there, don't throw away your shells, either, when you can clean out the inside of the shells and then make an egg shell broth.

CitrusHigh

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 10:05:47 am »
Salts including iron, calcium and magnesium, are better extracted in cool to warm temperatures.

I interpreted 'better' as more completely/efficiently/faster, and hence my comments. Just for sake of clarity, otherwise of no consequence! Neat paper thanks for sharing!

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 10:27:44 am »
Calcium is the only mineral that is more soluble in cold water than in warm water.

Random fact. 

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 02:56:36 pm »
Also, for egg eaters out there, don't throw away your shells, either, when you can clean out the inside of the shells and then make an egg shell broth.
Do you know of some similar paper about egg shells? Like what kind of minerals are extracted in the broth.

Offline Polyvore

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 03:33:57 pm »
Sorry no, it was an assumption. But egg shells disintegrate much quicker than bone, which is why I said so.

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 05:13:12 pm »
You probably wouldn't even need to clean the egg shells out as the membrane and anything else would have minerals in them too!

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 05:34:10 am »
From what I read, it seems that potassium was found to be a bit better extracted from the bones at 100 degrees celsius (212 F, ie boiling) vs. room temperature, whereas iron, calcium and magnesium were better extracted at room temp. The latter nutrients were increased with the addition of plants only at 100 C. Sodium and chlorine extraction were apparently unaffected by temp. Gelatine, and possibly fat, were better extracted at the higher temp. The authors did not conclude that raw broth was just as good as boiled, but did conclude that soaking bones for several hours in cold water then adding veggies and boiling for an hour would be just as good as boiling the bones for several hours.
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 01:06:27 am »
Neat article, thanks for the note. Maybe soaking bones is a good way to make natural mineral water?

On another topic, I just bought a farrier's rasp with the intention of filing bones to powder, then using the powdered bone to dust raw meat and organs. My goal is to find ways to eat the bone and have it digest well, eliminating the need to cook it in order to get both its minerals and collagen. Any other ideas how I might do this?

CitrusHigh

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 02:10:09 am »
Not off the top of my head Eric, but is there any concern about heavy metals being filed in to your food along with it?

More than a couple people here I think cut with ceramic knives because obviously the dulling effect is the wear of the metal on  and into the food being cut. Seems like the same principle would be at work here but even more pronounced since bone is so hard. Just a thought.

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 06:23:27 am »
On another topic, I just bought a farrier's rasp with the intention of filing bones to powder, then using the powdered bone to dust raw meat and organs. My goal is to find ways to eat the bone and have it digest well, eliminating the need to cook it in order to get both its minerals and collagen. Any other ideas how I might do this?
It should work to some extent, see http://gut.bmj.com/content/19/3/240.full.pdf
Quote
It is clear frorn the results that native collagen is
digested and absorbed by the rat and a Gaboon
viper. In the rat the evidence was that it was
absorbed in the small gut, so that presumably
bacteria are not concerned in the breakdown. From
the experiments in vitro it seems that the combination
of pepsin at acid pH in the stomach followed by
neutral proteases in pancreatic juice could break
down the triple helix.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2012, 08:25:08 am »
My goal is to find ways to eat the bone and have it digest well, eliminating the need to cook it in order to get both its minerals and collagen. Any other ideas how I might do this?

On an NPR radio program called Science Friday, there was an episode about an experiment in which a small animal - a shrew - was swallowed whole. Then, the feces (UK translation: faeces) of the shrew-eater were examined to determine the state of digestion of the bones of the shrew. The findings were that the bones had been digested. http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/07/2012/the-importance-of-strange-science.html

On an earlier post on this forum, a poster mentioned swallowing whole chunks of raw tendon, which seemed to digest just fine. In light of the shrew experiment, this makes sense.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 10:10:08 am »
On an NPR radio program called Science Friday, there was an episode about an experiment in which a small animal - a shrew - was swallowed whole. Then, the feces (UK translation: faeces) of the shrew-eater were examined to determine the state of digestion of the bones of the shrew. The findings were that the bones had been digested. http://sciencefriday.com/segment/09/07/2012/the-importance-of-strange-science.html

On an earlier post on this forum, a poster mentioned swallowing whole chunks of raw tendon, which seemed to digest just fine. In light of the shrew experiment, this makes sense.

I have trouble digesting large chunks of raw tendon, myself.  However, I imagine I'd probably digest a shrew just fine.  I've never tried, though.  That might be interesting.

CitrusHigh

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 10:30:18 am »
It makes sense, our digestive system is made to melt that kind of stuff down.

Next time I see a bite sized rodent running around the farm here I will woof it and see how that goes.

Offline political atheist

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2014, 03:47:53 am »
broth is made for its gelatin and other nutrients to heal the gut... fasting on bone broth for minimum 7 days will heal the gut. 3- 4 quarts per day.
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2014, 06:14:32 am »
On the topic of raw bone broths, I've been experimenting for the past year with making bone broth using fermentation. Basically I start as if I'm making some sort of fermented beverage, kvass-style. I use half-gallon mason jars, cut or grate 1-2 cups of nutrient-dense, starchy vegetable - beets, carrots, burdock root or some other root, or red cabbage - and put it in the jar. Next add a decently sized chunk of bone, ideally with connective tissue, fat and even some shreds of meat left on. Fill the jar with water, add a few pinches of unrefined sea salt (perhaps 1/4 teaspoon) and swish the mixture to mix everything nicely. Then let it sit at room temperature for a week or two, or three.

The vegetables will start fermenting, releasing lactic acid along with all sorts of other beneficial things. The acid will help to draw alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium out of the bone, and bacteria will start eating the physical components of the bone, liberating them into the solution as parts of the bacteria floating about. When the fermentation has used up most of the sugars in the vegetables, the broth is ready to drink (if you let it continue fermenting, other bacteria will start turning the lactic acid into acetic acid, aka vinegar).

I've noticed that when I do this, much of the fat melts off the bones and forms droplets on top of the liquid, much like when you make cooked broth. I've also noticed that most of the soft tissue on the bones is either gone or very mushy by the time the bone is removed, suggesting some serious bacterial activity there. I've finally noticed that the bone is noticeably more porous at the end than when I put it in, suggesting some of the proteins that make it up were eaten by bacteria or dissolved by the acid and entered the solution. At any rate, this seems like a workable way to make bone broth without heat.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2014, 06:40:50 am »
Eric, how does your raw bone broth taste?

Are the bones you use fresh, never-frozen bones? Do you think pre-frozen bones will do?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:27:43 am by Joy2012 »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2014, 06:53:44 am »
Brilliant Eric! This is the sort of useful and little-known info that is the best aspect of this forum. About how long would you estimate that you let the mix ferment? Do you leave the lids loose or take any other precaution to avoid explosion from gasses?

Most people also are unaware that dogs bury bones to not only hide them from other animals, but also to anaerobically ferment them. Thus, a domesticated dog in a fenced-in property that has no fear of his bones being swiped will likely nonetheless bury some if given the chance.
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Offline LePatron7

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2014, 10:28:05 am »
This post is making me want to start fermenting again!
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2014, 04:04:42 pm »
Joy, I think the broth tastes quite nice. Because the alkaline minerals are being leached from the bone by the lactic acid, the end beverage doesn't have the harsh, acidic taste of a typical fermented beverage. Inspired by your question, I'm going to pick up some pH strips while running errands later this morning and test a batch of finished broth to see what the pH is. I don't expect it to be alkaline, but I also don't expect it to be terribly acidic either.

Most of the bones I get have been frozen. Those seem to work fine. I have two 1/2 gallon jars that I started fermenting yesterday, and used a few pieces of rib bones in each. I'm also on the lookout for larger jars that I can fit larger bones into without having to saw them, as I have a bunch of femur knuckles that are too large to fit into my normal fermenting jars.

Phil, good point! I'd never thought of animals burying bones to ferment them, but given the temperature of the ground and the bacteria present it makes all the sense in the world. Any knowledge of studies articulating why that benefits the dogs? Does it make elements of the bone more digestible?


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2014, 06:34:18 pm »
No studies. Yes, it makes the bones more digestible, and yummy.  :D
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hanna

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2014, 10:15:36 pm »
Fill the jar with water, add a few pinches of unrefined sea salt

Is it possible to prepare this bone broth without adding salt?

 

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