Author Topic: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked  (Read 38919 times)

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Offline Eric

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2014, 11:10:51 am »
Van's idea of waiting a few days for the veggies to acidify is an interesting one. You can buy inexpensive pH strips from your local grocery store or drug store, and can use them to check to see when the pH falls into the range of 4 or 5 before adding bones. The acidity should prevent putrefying bacteria from colonizing the bones/meat, and should hasten the removal of alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2014, 11:16:51 am »
My fermented bone broth and another bowl of fermented vegetables have been uncovered daily. Are they bad then? Why is oxygen an enemy?

I can't give you a science answer, but try this for yourself: Make two batches of shredded cabbage. Ferment one batch the usual way, submerged in water. Make the second batch without water submersion, so the cabbage is in the air. Keep these at room temperature for a week. Sample the two batches and see which one turned into sauerkraut.

My son, the science-y guy, says that if oxygen is present, the lactobacilli will undergo cellular respiration instead of fermentation. Cellular respiration makes piss and shit (his words, very science-y - in other words, methane and uric acid) instead of lactic acid.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2014, 12:58:40 pm »
Thanks for all the responses.
Van, actually I already did something similar to what you said. Since Eric said this, “The vegetables will start fermenting, releasing lactic acid along with all sorts of other beneficial things. The acid will help to draw alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium out of the bone, and bacteria will start eating the physical components of the bone, liberating them into the solution as parts of the bacteria floating about...” I fermented vegetables for some time before adding chicken feet to the fermenting bowl. I think it works. I don’t mind a little bit of salt, though.
I can't give you a science answer, but try this for yourself: Make two batches of shredded cabbage. Ferment one batch the usual way, submerged in water. Make the second batch without water submersion, so the cabbage is in the air. Keep these at room temperature for a week. Sample the two batches and see which one turned into sauerkraut.

My son, the science-y guy, says that if oxygen is present, the lactobacilli will undergo cellular respiration instead of fermentation. Cellular respiration makes piss and shit (his words, very science-y - in other words, methane and uric acid) instead of lactic acid.
Eveheart, see if I understand you alright: As long as the vegetables/bones are totally submerged in the fermenting water, it is alright. Is that what you meant?
I am putting the fermenting stuff in a big corning ware, totally submerged in water, covered by a matching glass lid. Daily I use a utensil to push down the vegetables/bones to make sure they stay in the water. Does this sound OK?

I am not a scientific person. So I checked out methane and uric acid on the internet. Here is what I found:
“Methane is not toxic, yet it is extremely flammable and may form explosive mixtures with air. Methane is violently reactive with oxidizers, halogen, and some halogen-containing compounds.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane
 “In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine….Both uric acid and ascorbic acid are strong reducing agents (electron donors) and potent antioxidants. In humans, over half the antioxidant capacity of blood plasma comes from uric acid….High levels of uric acid is called hyperuricemia and can lead to gout….Lower serum values of uric acid have been associated with multiple sclerosis.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
So it looks like consuming a little bit of methane and eric acid is not harmful?

I just want to make sure I am not consuming something harmful...

Offline jessica

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2014, 09:52:10 pm »
You shouldn't have to add water to your veggies if you use something like cabbage and make sure to crush it properly and allow the natural juices and very little salt do the magic.  I just crush with m hands and then pound it into the jar with fists, I have had enough extra juice to add a few cups of extra ingredients with this technique, and generally, by the second day of fermentation, more water liberates itself from the veggies.

The reason I make ferments in a tight jar is to force out the air, in a large bowl the process of fermentation will make pockets of gas that are undesirable, so having it packed tightly in a jar, and then being sure to push out the air with some weight on top of the jar daily or a few times daily helps to insure proper fermenting throughout

I agree with vans advice to add bones and meat to veggies that are already a ways down the path to fermentation.  I have added salmon to ferments before, left a day or two the meat seems to "cook" and have a flakey tender texture. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 09:58:04 pm by jessica »

Offline jessica

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2014, 09:54:17 pm »
I have had friends experiment with lacto fermenting meats with whey, and spices and had good results with beef heart.  I am wondering if Bill Molisons book on fermentation has any recipes or ideas for traditional bone and meat ferments, anyone have copy?

Offline Eric

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2014, 10:34:10 pm »
I used to own a copy of Bill Mollison's fermentation book, titled The Permaculture Book of Ferment and Human Nutrition, but got rid of it. It's more an encyclopedia of the things people around the world ferment than a discussion of the benefits of fermentation or a book that offers recipes. The thing I found most frustrating about it is that it never gave instructions on how to prepare any of the recipes he talked about, he just talked about where they were from and who ate them.

It's also wicked expensive and hard to get here in the US.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #81 on: September 06, 2014, 12:06:37 am »
Eveheart, see if I understand you alright: As long as the vegetables/bones are totally submerged in the fermenting water, it is alright. Is that what you meant?
I am putting the fermenting stuff in a big corning ware, totally submerged in water, covered by a matching glass lid. Daily I use a utensil to push down the vegetables/bones to make sure they stay in the water. Does this sound OK?

The CO2 bubbles push the solids to the surface, and that's where the air contact occurs, even if you have a cover on your fermentation container. If have to push your solids down, they are contacting air.

Quote
I am not a scientific person. So I checked out methane and uric acid on the internet. ...
So it looks like consuming a little bit of methane and eric acid is not harmful?

I think you are overthinking this. The goal is to grow certain microorganisms and not others. Deliberate fermentation of food was going on long before mankind knew the science behind fermentation. If the set-up is right (excluding air with an air lock or water trough, or submerging under water with weights, mesh, etc.) then the result will be tasty and nutritious.

I had Bill Mollison's book and found it to be nothing more than an overpriced picture book of ferments from around the world. Not enough information to be helpful. As a coffee-table book, it was superb, as a recipe book, not useful. I prefer Sandor Ellix Katz.

As far as starting the vegetables a-fermenting before adding bones, this sounds good if you are starting from scratch. If you add whey or sauerkraut water starter, it might not be necessary.

Here's what my set-up looks like (not my picture, though, all my jars are quart size).
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline jessica

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2014, 05:11:59 am »
I guess I just don't like sandors recipes(toooo salty!) and find the history, culture and suggestions in Molisons book to be excellent ideas for my own experimentation.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2014, 05:38:54 am »
I guess I just don't like sandors recipes(toooo salty!) and find the history, culture and suggestions in Molisons book to be excellent ideas for my own experimentation.

I can definitely agree with you on both comments!
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Eric

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2014, 05:49:42 am »
I find Sandor's recipes way too salty as well. That's easy enough to fix though, just don't add so much salt. I probably add one fourth the salt to most of my ferments that Sandor Katz advocates in his books.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2014, 08:13:04 am »
Many thanks for all the posts. I am inspired to enter the world of fermentation. I am getting Katz's two books (2003 & 2012) from my local public library.

Offline Hanna

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #86 on: September 11, 2014, 01:21:30 am »
Is it possible to ferment cauliflower and kohlrabi - perhaps even without salt? There are some in our garden, too many to eat at once…

P.S.: Concerning kohlrabi, I just found this: http://www.ehow.com/how_7524079_ferment-kohlrabi.html
I fermented Kohlrabi as described in the link (without the soap and disinfection part) and it tastes already like sauerkraut. Even better than sauerkraut! I added a little bit salt, less than suggested in the recipe. It seems not to be necessary to add (much) water if the kohlrabi is grated because the kohlrabi is very juicy. The next kohlrabi will be fermented without salt… And then perhaps I’ll try to add bones.

Offline zaidi

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2014, 05:07:26 am »
Here one solution for turning normal jars into gas evading jars in order to make perfect fermentation.

He fills a plastic bag with water, and then puts it instead of lid, covering the whole jar mouth. When the gases have more pressure, they can come out of it, but no oxygen could get in it.  A simple but practical and good solution.

(Please watch from 4:00 minutes where he is showing how to use the plastic bags with water as the jar lids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWS1prE5_Eg

Offline van

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2014, 07:15:31 am »
another way that works quite well,,  use wide jar or crock pot.   fill with material, cover with broad leaves of cabbage, and place stone on top so that it presses the fermenting vegs. down.   Save the stone for next time.   you can then cover the top with non airtight lid to keep out airborne dust etc.

Offline Eric

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2014, 08:24:39 am »
Another option that I learned from Sandor Katz at a workshop this past July: Fill the mason jar (or other vessel) with vegetables and whatever else, then pack glass marbles on top of the vegetables in the jar to weigh them down and keep them below the waterline. Next put the normal lid on the mason jar with the screw-on rim left loose. The gas can escape as needed since the lid isn't sealed tightly, but the lid will keep fruit flies and other things out and the marbles will weigh the veg down so it's not exposed to oxygen.

Offline Hanna

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2014, 05:21:58 pm »
Using glass marbles as weight is an original idea!

When you make a bone broth using fermenting, is it possible to leave bone marrow in the bones? Or is it better to remove the marrow carefully?

Offline Eric

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #91 on: September 11, 2014, 07:37:36 pm »
You could leave the marrow in, but I generally remove it and eat it. It's so nourishing, I wouldn't want its nutritional qualities altered by the fermentation. And, inadvertently, little bits of marrow are left in the bones anyway as I can never get it all out.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2014, 12:08:20 pm »
zaidi, plastic could leak poisonous stuff upon contact with acids. I suppose fermented vegi contains acids?

... place stone on top so that it presses the fermenting vegs. down.   Save the stone for next time.   you can then cover the top with non airtight lid to keep out airborne dust etc.

Do you mean: After I have pressed the vegi down with the stone, I take the stone out and cover the pot with lid while the vegi is being fermented?

Eric, glass marbles are very cheap (price-wise). Are you sure the colors in the marbles don't contain chemicals?

Offline van

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2014, 02:28:20 pm »
you leave the stone in place while fermenting..

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2014, 11:29:15 am »
Thanks, van.

Offline Eric

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2014, 04:53:19 am »
Eric, glass marbles are very cheap (price-wise). Are you sure the colors in the marbles don't contain chemicals?

I'm not sure. It seems like I've seen clear glass marbles, so those shouldn't offer any potential for contamination.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2014, 11:19:16 am »
I read somewhere that crock pots made in some countries contain lead, especially colored ones. It appears that in these days of advanced (?) technology we cannot be too careful.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2014, 01:35:58 pm »
I agree with you, Joy, but I do trust glass products sold in the US for use with foods, for instance drinking glasses and canning jars.

I use a "jar in a jar method" to keep fermenting foods submerged. For example, I can fit a narrow-mouth 4 oz. canning jar into a wide-mouth canning jar (quart or larger), then  I screw a wide-mouth canning lid with an air lock, and this outer lid holds the small jar down.

I get a lot of ideas by googling "fermentation jars" or "fermentation crocks." Youtube has good stuff, too. Once you get the basics of the bacteria culture, the variations are infinite.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Hanna

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2014, 03:26:21 am »
I just ate „sauerkraut“ made from grated kohlrabi fermented without added salt. I just added a little bit water to grated kohlrabi and stored it in a cold place for some days. The kohlrabi didn’t spoil and its taste was fine.

Next, I`ll try to prepare a raw bone broth.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2014, 07:43:18 am »
Eveheart,  good idea.

My first bone broth got molds because I just manually pushed the bones downward so that they went through a rinse underneath the water--and then they emerged above the water again of course.

Now I am doing my second bone broth experiment. I first fermented a big jar of cabbage (using jessica's idea) for one week. Then I took out the cabbage (and ate it) and placed the fermented cabbage juice into a big glass bowl. I placed several pastured chicken feet (each cut open in two places to expose the bone) into the bowl and covered/pushed them down with a heavy transparent glass plate (so that I can see the feet are truly pushed down under the waterline. Then I covered the bowl with its own lid. The fermented cabbage juice smells so good. I hope this experiment will succeed.

Hanna, let us know if your bone broth is a success.

 

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