Author Topic: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings  (Read 21079 times)

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Offline CatTreats

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Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« on: April 14, 2014, 01:42:54 am »
Hey guys. As some of you know I've been back to 100% raw foods for about 3 weeks now.

Since two nights ago, I've really lacked any urge to eat any raw meats (seafood included). And it's not like I'm craving cooked food either. Literally, everything just sounds bland, and it even tastes bland when I eat it (which I know is a sign that you don't need it). I've done this with an assortment of meats and fish - even cuts with lots of fat and the fat is just meh. Egg yolks have lost their appeal, too, and they were tasting delicious for a while. Fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.

What do you guys do when you lack appetite or cravings? I still feel somewhat hungry, but not ravenous.
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Offline Sorentus

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2014, 01:51:14 am »
Hell I wish I knew, I crave food 24/7 no matter how much I eat and even poop seem appetizing to me (sarcasm). Apparently lack of appetite can be attributed to zinc or copper deficiency, which seems unlikely giving that it's concentrated in meat. Muscle meat barely has copper but has lots of zinc while organ has lots of copper and a good amount of zinc (depending on the organ) and oyster has lots of both.

If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2014, 02:02:54 am »
Hell I wish I knew, I crave food 24/7 no matter how much I eat and even poop seem appetizing to me (sarcasm).

Yeah, I'm generally an EATING MACHINE. So this lack of interest in anything is puzzling. I just hope I can start craving raw meats the way everyone else does soon.

Apparently lack of appetite can be attributed to zinc or copper deficiency, which seems unlikely giving that it's concentrated in meat. Muscle meat barely has copper but has lots of zinc while organ has lots of copper and a good amount of zinc (depending on the organ) and oyster has lots of both.

I thought zinc was more concentrated in shellfish, and copper in organ - both of which I'm not eating enough of. I need to get organ meat into my life ... this Tuesday I will. Only been having small bits of liver as my organ meat.

If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

No real issues with sugar, but I'd be concerned that I'll start making myself need honey with my meat just to like it haha.
In its purest, unaltered form, healthy food is delicious.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2014, 02:06:22 am »
What do you guys do when you lack appetite or cravings? I still feel somewhat hungry, but not ravenous.

If nothing is attractive, then what do you think we should do?

You say “fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.” Why don’t you want to eat just fruit for a day or two? Perhaps even a single meal of fruits will restore your appetite for other foods. Do you have enough choice? Celeriac, sweet potatoes, fennel, broccoli, cauliflower,  green peas, tomatoes, red pepper, various nuts, dates, honey, perhaps sugar cane, carob, etc?

 
If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

That’s the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read.  :o Sorry, Sorentus.

I just hope I can start craving raw meats the way everyone else does soon.

Everyone? Not me, not always.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 03:10:28 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2014, 02:31:07 am »
If nothing is attracting, then what do you think we should do?

I was going to assume fasting, but wasn't sure if that's what I need to do since I'm still feeling somewhat hungry.

You say “fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.” Why don’t you want to eat just fruit for a day or two? Perhaps even a single meal of fruits will restore your appetite for other foods. Do you have enough choice? Celeriac, sweet potatoes, fennel, broccoli, cauliflower,  green peas, tomatoes, red pepper, various nuts, dates, honey, perhaps sugar cane, carob, etc?

I don't eat many vegetables, just because I find the majority of them extremely unappealing in flavor (raw or cooked), and I don't feel as good when I eat more than just a pinch of something. Onion is the only thing I eat regularly, and mainly as a flavor/garnish to something. I also though that sweet potatoes and other tubers had more anti-nutrients than benefits when raw. Or maybe that's white potatoes.

I guess I'll just eat some fruit and see how I feel. I just worried because eating a good amount of fruit causes digestion upsets.


Everyone? Not me, not always.

Well, I just meant in general. It seems like most of the community here will have major cravings for raw meat, bone marrow, liver, etc.
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Offline Sorentus

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2014, 02:31:46 am »
That’s the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read.  :o Sorry, Sorentus.
eveheart spread honey on her meat :P

Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 03:09:27 am »
Thanks Iguana - I went ahead and ate a banana. Now, my raw fatty beef tastes delicious. Maybe that's all I needed. ^_^
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Offline eveheart

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2014, 04:21:17 am »
eveheart spread honey on her meat :P

Never!!! And I'll thank you to let me speak for myself. At the very least, look up a possible reference and insert a link to where you find someone else's statements, but never pretend to know something that you haven't even bothered to verify.

What makes me go ballistic? Well, for one thing, I rarely eat two unrelated foods at the same time. Honey and meat don't go together at all. For another thing, meat is not a sweet food, so putting honey on it would be the same as seasoning it. All my posts on this forum pretty well support the fact that I don't season my food to alter its taste or appeal. Finally, I don't eat honey because I don't have an attraction to that intense sweetness.

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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 06:59:42 am »
I sometimes reach a point where I'm just not hungry, and a few times each year might to a spontaneous fast for as many as 3-5 days on account of never feeling hungry enough to eat. I never force myself to eat anything. I don't see a point to doing this. Sometimes our body just wants to clean itself out and rest its digestive processes.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 07:06:41 am »
Quote
Quote from: Sorentus on Today at 12:51:14 pm
If sugar isn't a problem to you, maybe spread honey on your meat? :)

That’s the most crazy idea I’ve ever  heard or read.  :o Sorry, Sorentus.
Huh? It's delectable. I find that the contrasting taste of the honey complements the meat beautifully. I've seen multiple raw Paleo dieters report eating this combo in the past. Unless one is adhering to severely strict no-combining rules that are of little interest to me, or to a bland low-brain-reward diet to lose weight, or some other such approach, I can't imagine why this would be "crazy." The OP was talking about loss of appetite, which honey seems ideally suited for, not weight loss. I tend toward inadequate appetite and underweight by any reasonable standard, so I sometimes add raw (fermented) honey or other flavor enhancement to meat to help keep my appetite up towards a natural level and it seems to help.

Here's a Korean beef tartare recipe that includes honey: http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/yukhoe

and an American recipe (which also includes vodka, which I'll note that I'm not recommending, in case anyone gets the notion to create a straw man out of that):
http://taste.fourseasons.com/recipe/beef-tartare-with-caviar-apple-sorbet-and-green-apple-vanilla-vodka-shot/

Wild raw honey (with grubs, which is an animal flesh food that includes protein as well as fat) was also rated the top-preferred staple food by Hadza hunter-gatherer males in a study (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf), so it's perfectly natural to like honey, especially for males, apparently. Honey is an animal product and in the wild it comes naturally combined with animal food (grubs and sometimes dead adult bees). So it's actually more natural to mix it with an animal food than anything else.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 09:02:18 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sorentus

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 07:33:50 am »
Never!!! And I'll thank you to let me speak for myself. At the very least, look up a possible reference and insert a link to where you find someone else's statements, but never pretend to know something that you haven't even bothered to verify.

What makes me go ballistic? Well, for one thing, I rarely eat two unrelated foods at the same time. Honey and meat don't go together at all. For another thing, meat is not a sweet food, so putting honey on it would be the same as seasoning it. All my posts on this forum pretty well support the fact that I don't season my food to alter its taste or appeal. Finally, I don't eat honey because I don't have an attraction to that intense sweetness.

My bad, it was paper_clips43, chill. I didn't mean to insult you.

Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 08:58:52 am »
I sometimes reach a point where I'm just not hungry, and a few times each year might to a spontaneous fast for as many as 3-5 days on account of never feeling hungry enough to eat. I never force myself to eat anything. I don't see a point to doing this. Sometimes our body just wants to clean itself out and rest its digestive processes.

I've had that happen before. If I'm not hungry, I don't force myself to eat. This was just a little different - nothing sounded good barring fruit slightly, but I still felt a bit hungry. Eating a little fruit did the trick though. I had a banana and then about a quarter of a pound of fatty beef. The fat tasted delicious all of a sudden, something that I normally don't like as much. I was very pleased.

Here's a Korean beef tartare recipe that includes honey: http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/yukhoe

I'm very familiar with Korean foods, having studied in Korea, and have made Yukhoe myself a few times. It's one of my favorites. I'm just trying to make myself eat plain raw foods as well to make sure I'm not just covering up the flavors. I'm not even a fan of plain honey, actually. I don't dislike raw meat, but I haven't grown to really crave those flavors as much. Like marrow is still something I can't eat. But as I mentioned, fat has suddenly gotten more delicious, which is great progress.
In its purest, unaltered form, healthy food is delicious.

Offline edmon171

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 10:30:17 am »
Things that make me hungry: watching the food network, watching nature shows with big cats, seeing or smelling people eat around me, hand-feeding meat to the dogs. Fasting won't always make me very hungry right away, but I am starting already in ketosis. Most people suffer when starting a fast because they are still running on glucose. After a couple of days I get a little hungry here and there. If I go any longer than that, the first thing I eat will taste like the best thing I ever ate. If I do any kind of strenuous exercise while fasting I will get ravenous and have to break the fast. Also if I just put the food in front of me and smell it or touch it while fasting that will do the trick. The longest fast I've done was 14 days, which was quite an experience. After day 5 everything changed, I went into what I call "hunting mode." My vision, hearing, and smell became extremely sensitive and accurate. I felt energized and light on my feet, my thinking was crystal clear, and I was sharp as a tack. I only had hunger on days 2, 3, 5, and 7, then nothing. On day 14 I still wasn't hungry but I was contemplating breaking the fast so I had a look in the fridge and saw this enormous rib steak sitting right in front. I was like a lion stalking my prey, I couldn't look away or close the door. I actually drooled on the floor a little, which snapped me out of it. Best steak ever.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 03:13:29 am »
 
Huh? It's delectable. I find that the contrasting taste of the honey complements the meat beautifully. I've seen multiple raw Paleo dieters report eating this combo in the past.
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have thought something like “I’m fed of eating this raw meat alone without any mixing with a sweet food… let’s go and an get some honey on that tree top over there to poor it onto the meat, otherwise I’m gonna get underweight for eating less meat than my raw paleo tribe fellows.” Thinking further ahead, this genius anthropoid would have then realized that by grilling, salting and spicing the meat he would be able to eat even more and gain even more weight!   

Quote
Unless one is adhering to severely strict no-combining rules that are of little interest to me, or to a bland low-brain-reward diet to lose weight, or some other such approach, I can't imagine why this would be "crazy." The OP was talking about loss of appetite, which honey seems ideally suited for, not weight loss. I tend toward inadequate appetite and underweight by any reasonable standard, so I sometimes add raw (fermented) honey or other flavor enhancement to meat to help keep my appetite up towards a natural level and it seems to help.
CatTreats wrote she lost appetite for meat. Doesn’t it obviously mean that she should have eaten something else? As a matter of fact, a single banana was enough to reestablish a rough alimentary balance which allowed her to enjoy meat again.

With all the discussions we’ve had since 2009, I would have thought you know my ideas about it. Well, let’s go for one more round…

1. Meat and honey in the same meal are really a bad association, impairing proper digestion.
2. Proteins and sugars tend to combine to form AGEs during digestion, even at body temperature.
3. By mixing food before ingestion, you can’t know how much of each is the proper amount. In this example, your body may currently either need honey but no meat or meat but no honey. It may need both, but you can’t know how much of each.
4. Mixing and spicing allow yourself to ingest more of a given food than what you actually need, thus you get into an overload of some of the specific compounds contained in that food. You've  then entered into a vicious circle because as long as this overload is not spent, you won’t be able to eat the same food again without spicing it, mixing it... and eventually cooking it!


Points 3 and 4 explain why the entire human population on this planet fell into mixing, processing and cooking food, the trend being irreversible unless these points are understood.   ;) 

Quote
Wild raw honey (with grubs, which is an animal flesh food that includes protein as well as fat) was also rated the top-preferred staple food by Hadza hunter-gatherer males in a study (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP07601616.pdf), so it's perfectly natural to like honey, especially for males, apparently. Honey is an animal product and in the wild it comes naturally combined with animal food (grubs and sometimes dead adult bees). So it's actually more natural to mix it with an animal food than anything else.
It’s natural mixed with bee brood or grubs, but you won’t find a mixture of beef and honey in nature!  :)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline CatTreats

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 05:54:21 am »
 
CatTreats wrote she lost appetite for meat. Doesn’t it obviously mean that she should have eaten something else? As a matter of fact, a single banana was enough to reestablish a rough alimentary balance which allowed her to enjoy meat again.

It was more that I just had no interest in anything except for fruit really. The only reason I hesitated to just go for the fruit is because I'm always happy to eat fruit, hungry or not. So I wasn't sure if this was the right choice.


1. Meat and honey in the same meal are really a bad association, impairing proper digestion.
2. Proteins and sugars tend to combine to form AGEs during digestion, even at body temperature.

Aw! This is disappointing. As mentioned above, Yukhoe (uses both meat and honey) is definitely a treat. I've never noticed digestion issues, but I'll also say that I'm not experienced enough to tell when something is wrong unless it's directly discomforting.

 
3. By mixing food before ingestion, you can’t know how much of each is the proper amount. In this example, your body may currently either need honey but no meat or meat but no honey. It may need both, but you can’t know how much of each.

I do agree with this. If it continues to taste good, we can't know if it's because our body needs something in the honey or the meat.

  4. Mixing and spicing allow yourself to ingest more of a given food than what you actually need, thus you get into an overload of some of the specific compounds contained in that food. You've  then entered into a vicious circle because as long as this overload is not spent, you won’t be able to eat the same food again without spicing it, mixing it... and eventually cooking it!

Agreed again. I do like to enjoy fun recipes with my food, though. You have to enjoy your food, or you're not living. That's not to say that unaltered, unmixed foods can't be enjoyable. I think my favorite thing so far has been ripping apart a freshly cut sockeye salmon head and eating everything, plain of course.
In its purest, unaltered form, healthy food is delicious.

Offline paper_clips43

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 08:00:27 am »
Aw! This is disappointing. As mentioned above, Yukhoe (uses both meat and honey) is definitely a treat. I've never noticed digestion issues, but I'll also say that I'm not experienced enough to tell when something is wrong unless it's directly discomforting

I have been eating raw meat for two years now. After much experimentation I feel I digest meat better with raw honey than with out. My mood is improved as well. Meat alone or meat with fat and I feel depressed. Either lots of fruit before meat or eating honey during meat meal and I feel good.

Experimentation probably trumps all dietary advice, science, and history.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2014, 08:59:04 am »


Experimentation probably trumps all dietary advice, science, and history.

It's when they all agree that you should pay attention.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 09:43:24 am »
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have thought something like “I’m fed of eating this raw meat alone without any mixing with a sweet food… let’s go and an get some honey on that tree top over there to poor it onto the meat...
They didn't have to think about that, since honey often comes naturally with bee grub (larvae) meat, as you acknowledged, which contains animal protein and fat. The ancient ancestors of humans included insectivores and omnivores that ate insects, honey and tree saps, and sometimes at the same time. Bee grubs were a good choice by GCB to add to his diet. Bee grubs are also reportedly the favorite part of the hive for bears. It makes no sense to assume that we can't eat any raw animal protein or fat at all with honey in spite of that just because of some dietary theories of modern gurus, except maybe as a weight loss strategy (though one study found little benefit for this from food combining - "Similar weight loss with low-energy food combining or balanced diets," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10805507) or for people with extremely poor carb tolerance (though mine is very poor and even I can handle some RF honey with meat).

Honey ants, a favorite food of Australian aborigines, even contain sugary honeydew from tree saps within their bodies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwzzbjYHC3w

The notion that one should artificially restrict one's diet so as to never eat sweet or carby at the same meal with protein is a modern reductionist one. Even within freshly killed or fermented raw whole animal carcasses there are plenty of carbs (estimated at around 15-20% or more in the case of wild Arctic animal sources - http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html). It's actually one of the benefits of eating meats raw (though the animal carbs and prebiotics unfortunately deplete over time if not frozen or traditionally fermented, so that supermarket meat contains much less than wild sources). Heck, you'd probably need a laboratory or to at least thoroughly cook the meat to eat a truly ZC purist meal, if it's even possible. Breastmilk, nuts, seeds and underground storage organs also contain both carbs and proteins and sometimes fats, in varying proportions. Our species wouldn't have survived long in the wild if we could only eat macronutrients separately.

I have been eating raw meat for two years now. After much experimentation I feel I digest meat better with raw honey than with out.
It seems that way for me too and there is a plausible explanation. Raw honey contains enzymes and acids that help can improve general digestion and it seems to improve mine some.

While I'm quite skeptical of some of Aajonus' claims, he seemed to have a lot of experience with honey and was quite a connoisseur, and he specifically claimed that raw honey helps digest meat, which fits with my and Paperclip's experience:
Quote
"Unheated honey contains an insulin-like substance that is produced by bees when collecting nectar. That insulin-like substance converts 90% of the carbohydrate in nectar into enzymes that help digest, assimilate and utilize protein. Unheated honey is a wonderful sweet food that helps digest all types of meat."
The Recipe for Living Without Disease, 2nd edition, p. 31
When I looked into that claim, I found that insulin-like substances were indeed found in honey, that are called insulin-like polypeptides. (For example, see Kramer K.J., Childs C.N., Spiers R.D., Jacobs R.M. (1982) Purification of insulinlike peptides from insects haemolymph and royal jelly. Insect Biochemistry 12(1):91-98.)

Raw honey is one of the most acidic (not to be confused with acidifying) natural foods (http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-acid-is-honey).

I find that eating some other food with the honey also helps avoid a burning sensation in the stomach when I eat a bit too much of such a highly acidic food alone, without benefit of meat, such as would come from the grubs that often accompany it in nature, or other food. Plus, as honey improved my digestion some over time, I became less prone to stomach burning.

Fermented honey also contains bacteria that can assist, though they likely prefer carby foods.

Plus, meat is reportedly an especially good trigger for stomach acid, which aids in digesting most foods, including carby foods.

As has been discussed by you and me and others many times before, the dose makes the poison when it comes to various plant and animal toxins. It's not possible to avoid them 100%. Small amounts may even be hormetically beneficial, giving our maintenance, repair and defense systems a workout and thus robustifying us, instead of letting our systems atrophy.

Plus, the enzymes and other elements of raw honey actually help in breaking down and detoxifying AGEs: http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/HoneyandAGEs.htm and honeys high in methylglyoxal are actually considered more medicinal (via knowledge learned largely from actual experience), rather than less, despite the theoretical concerns about AGEs.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:49:11 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 10:24:59 am »
I have been eating raw meat for two years now. After much experimentation I feel I digest meat better with raw honey than with out. My mood is improved as well. Meat alone or meat with fat and I feel depressed. Either lots of fruit before meat or eating honey during meat meal and I feel good.

Experimentation probably trumps all dietary advice, science, and history.

I suspect that you haven't  allowed time for your body to use fat as fuel..   Fruit and meat and honey will give rise to blood sugar and hence insulin.   This may 'feel' good, but I would look into long term possibilities if I were you maintaining this dietary habit.

Offline van

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 10:48:41 am »
In the recent past, I suppose, because I doubt our distant pre-fire ancestors would have thought something like “I’m fed of eating this raw meat alone without any mixing with a sweet food… let’s go and an get some honey on that tree top over there to poor it onto the meat, otherwise I’m gonna get underweight for eating less meat than my raw paleo tribe fellows.” Thinking further ahead, this genius anthropoid would have then realized that by grilling, salting and spicing the meat he would be able to eat even more and gain even more weight!   
CatTreats wrote she lost appetite for meat. Doesn’t it obviously mean that she should have eaten something else? As a matter of fact, a single banana was enough to reestablish a rough alimentary balance which allowed her to enjoy meat again.

With all the discussions we’ve had since 2009, I would have thought you know my ideas about it. Well, let’s go for one more round…

1. Meat and honey in the same meal are really a bad association, impairing proper digestion.
2. Proteins and sugars tend to combine to form AGEs during digestion, even at body temperature.
3. By mixing food before ingestion, you can’t know how much of each is the proper amount. In this example, your body may currently either need honey but no meat or meat but no honey. It may need both, but you can’t know how much of each.
4. Mixing and spicing allow yourself to ingest more of a given food than what you actually need, thus you get into an overload of some of the specific compounds contained in that food. You've  then entered into a vicious circle because as long as this overload is not spent, you won’t be able to eat the same food again without spicing it, mixing it... and eventually cooking it!


Points 3 and 4 explain why the entire human population on this planet fell into mixing, processing and cooking food, the trend being irreversible unless these points are understood.   ;) 
It’s natural mixed with bee brood or grubs, but you won’t find a mixture of beef and honey in nature!  :)


I find your imagination limited when it comes to what might have happened over the last many thousands of years.    It's as if you draw a little cartoon, like the one where the early paleos say humorously something about getting tired of eating meat....   Maybe.   But just as likely, if you care to speculate,,,    one hunting party goes out and comes back with a fresh kill.   The tribe sits and eats, knawing  away,,,   the second hunting party comes back with a huge bee hive full of honey.   Can't you imagine how they Just might get a little honey in their mouths at the same time that they have meat in there too?   Seems likely to me that over the course of thousands of years that that very scene may have happened enough times for those peoples to make up their own mind as to whether they liked the taste combo or not. 
    And even if it never ever happened ever... so what.   They didn't create the Bible of Food. 
    And by the way, I'm not promoting in the least the combination, just promoting the idea that to define what happened is what should happen now, is conjecture at the most.

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2014, 01:10:32 pm »
Hey guys. As some of you know I've been back to 100% raw foods for about 3 weeks now.

Since two nights ago, I've really lacked any urge to eat any raw meats (seafood included). And it's not like I'm craving cooked food either. Literally, everything just sounds bland, and it even tastes bland when I eat it (which I know is a sign that you don't need it). I've done this with an assortment of meats and fish - even cuts with lots of fat and the fat is just meh. Egg yolks have lost their appeal, too, and they were tasting delicious for a while. Fruit is the only thing that still sounds somewhat appealing, but I don't want to just eat that.

What do you guys do when you lack appetite or cravings? I still feel somewhat hungry, but not ravenous.


There are days when I don't feel like eating as well.  It's normal.
Some here do intermittent fasting, not eating 1 day a week.
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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2014, 02:53:59 pm »
They didn't have to think about that, since honey often comes naturally with bee grub (larvae) meat, as you acknowledged, which contains animal protein and fat. The ancient ancestors of humans included insectivores and omnivores that ate insects, honey and tree saps, and sometimes at the same time. Bee grubs were a good choice by GCB to add to his diet. Bee grubs are also reportedly the favorite part of the hive for bears. It makes no sense to assume that we can't eat any raw animal protein or fat at all with honey in spite of that just because of some dietary theories of modern gurus, …
I didn’t assume that « we can't eat any raw animal protein or fat at all with honey » at the same meal, I only notice that’s pouring honey on beef or whatever meat / fish /eggs is a modern artifice which prevents us to properly dose the respective amounts of meat and honey and may present some digestive  issues. It can’t be matched to the consumption of bee grubs along with the honey and wax they are embedded  in, which is a perfectly natural occurrence. 

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The notion that one should artificially restrict one's diet so as to never eat sweet or carby at the same meal with protein is a modern reductionist one.
I didn’t assume that either!

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Even within freshly killed or fermented raw whole animal carcasses there are plenty of carbs (estimated at around 15-20% or more in the case of wild Arctic animal sources - http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html). It's actually one of the benefits of eating meats raw (though the animal carbs and prebiotics unfortunately deplete over time if not frozen or traditionally fermented, so that supermarket meat contains much less than wild sources). Heck, you'd probably need a laboratory or to at least thoroughly cook the meat to eat a truly ZC purist meal, if it's even possible. Breastmilk, nuts, seeds and underground storage organs also contain both carbs and proteins and sometimes fats, in varying proportions. Our species wouldn't have survived long in the wild if we could only eat macronutrients separately.
Yes, I agree. Seems you read much more than I tried to say in my post!

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It seems that way for me too and there is a plausible explanation. Raw honey contains enzymes and acids that help can improve general digestion and it seems to improve mine some.
Ok, I conceded that it may happen this way for some people, as long as the honey and the other foods are each properly dosed, which can only be assured by not mixed them before ingestion.

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While I'm quite skeptical of some of Aajonus' claims, he seemed to have a lot of experience with honey and was quite a connoisseur, and he specifically claimed that raw honey helps digest meat, which fits with my and Paperclip's experience:When I looked into that claim, I found that insulin-like substances were indeed found in honey, that are called insulin-like polypeptides. (For example, see Kramer K.J., Childs C.N., Spiers R.D., Jacobs R.M. (1982) Purification of insulinlike peptides from insects haemolymph and royal jelly. Insect Biochemistry 12(1):91-98.)
Everyone is different and has different needs. I currently can’t eat more than a microscopic amount of honey and although it would be fine with bee brood, I would not eat it just after meat / fish / eggs: I would wait at least a bit, perhaps half an hour or one hour to see if I’m still hungry.
 
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I find that eating some other food with the honey also helps avoid a burning sensation in the stomach when I eat a bit too much of such a highly acidic food alone, without benefit of meat, such as would come from the grubs that often accompany it in nature, or other food. Plus, as honey improved my digestion some over time, I became less prone to stomach burning.
Yes, when we eat a bit too much of something, enzymes contained in another food can help digestion. But the best would be to avoid eating too much of anything.  ;)

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Fermented honey also contains bacteria that can assist, though they likely prefer carby foods.

Plus, meat is reportedly an especially good trigger for stomach acid, which aids in digesting most foods, including carby foods.

As has been discussed by you and me and others many times before, the dose makes the poison when it comes to various plant and animal toxins. It's not possible to avoid them 100%. Small amounts may even be hormetically beneficial, giving our maintenance, repair and defense systems a workout and thus robustifying us, instead of letting our systems atrophy.

Plus, the enzymes and other elements of raw honey actually help in breaking down and detoxifying AGEs: http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/HoneyandAGEs.htm and honeys high in methylglyoxal are actually considered more medicinal (via knowledge learned largely from actual experience), rather than less, despite the theoretical concerns about AGEs.
Thanks for those interesting info. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2014, 03:02:38 pm »
 
I do agree with this. If it continues to taste good, we can't know if it's because our body needs something in the honey or the meat.

Agreed again. I do like to enjoy fun recipes with my food, though. You have to enjoy your food, or you're not living. That's not to say that unaltered, unmixed foods can't be enjoyable. I think my favorite thing so far has been ripping apart a freshly cut sockeye salmon head and eating everything, plain of course.

I’m relieved and glad that you, at least, understand me! So I feel less lonely on this planet…  :)

The main reason why I’ve been sticking to 100% raw paleo in instinctive way since January 1987 is because I enjoy my food much more this way. Each meal is now a real enjoyment.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 03:08:11 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2014, 03:07:39 pm »
 
I find your imagination limited when it comes to what might have happened over the last many thousands of years.

Van, I’m not considering the last thousands of years, but the millions years before. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: Loss of Appetite / Lack of Cravings
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2014, 06:05:45 pm »

I’m relieved and glad that you, at least, understand me! So I feel less lonely on this planet…  :)

The main reason why I’ve been sticking to 100% raw paleo in instinctive way since January 1987 is because I enjoy my food much more this way. Each meal is now a real enjoyment.


I lean towards the enjoyment part too. 

Newbies need to taste and taste and taste around to get a feel of real food.  It's just like going to a fruit stand with many different fruits.  I assume even SAD people eat raw fruit.  Each has its own taste uncondimented.  It's the same for animal food and root crops and nuts and vegetables.

FYI to the original poster,  when I started out I shopped around and threw away a lot of icky stuff, bad tasting farmed fish, bad tasting grain fed meat, bad tasting fruit, bad tasting root crops, bad tasting vegetables.

I even moved my office to the big wet market so I could eat all the animal food and fruit fresh fresh fresh any time during the day.  Our office was there for a year. That much dedication.

I believe in Vitamin VARIETY.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:16:13 pm by goodsamaritan »
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