Thanks for that, Tyler.

Donkey milk is similar to mare milk and human breast milk in that it is relatively poor in protein and fat but rich in lactose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_milk

Use of donkey’s milk for a fermented beverage with lactobacilli http://tinyurl.com/pnmsltz

Because horse and donkey milks are so carby, they ferment well. Fermented horse milk (airag, kumis) is a traditional Eurasian beverage going back thousands of years. Some moderners have been rediscovering this ancestral beverage:
http://schnitzelandvegemite.com/2014/09/01/discovering-new-kinds-of-dairy-in-mongolia/

What about the red hair on orangutans? Couldn't that have evolved separately?

I think sexual selection and perhaps other factors likely play a larger role in red and blonde hair than climate. Interestingly, my own hair became less red and more brown, closer to that of my siblings, after I started using clay "shampoo" (mostly red and white clays, but also green and grey) upon Inger's recommendation. So hair color is apparently not purely due to genes. Perhaps copper collected in my hair and gave it a more reddish hue and clay removed some of the excess copper?

GS already shared an article that featured that 2012 Klyosov paper here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/'out-of-africa'-theory-officially-debunked/msg123830/#msg123830
and you even commented in the thread.

What do you make of these critique's of Klyosov's work:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1090-Analysis-of-Klyosov-s-Methodology

Here are a couple of examples:

10-01-2013, 11:51 PM #11
GailT

When I say a "large number of people" accept AK's fringe theories, I'm speaking purely of the amateur and genetic genealogist community, where he has a significant following. And intentionally or not, he provides cover for people who, for ideological reasons, refuse to accept the modified Out of Africa theory.

Regarding y-DNA and mtDNA phylogeny, no one in the scientific community accepts AK's fringe theories, and I doubt that academic researchers even know about AK's work, just as most academics are probably unaware of a recent self published paper on big foot DNA. Who has time to study and refute every unscientific conspiracy theory?

AK makes statements about y-DNA phylogeny that are very obviously, objectively, factually incorrect. If you read the papers he has written on ancient human origins and prehistoric migrations (and his response to criticism on the genealogy-dna list), I think there are only two possible conclusions: either he doesn't understand science, or he has some other agenda.

Again, I have no problem with his STR analysis. Many other people have done STR analysis that is about as accurate or uncertain as his. But as far as I know, no one else has tried to use their STR analysis to assert that every scientific study of uniparental DNA, from 1987 to the present, is wrong.

05-27-2014, 05:13 PM #17
jeanL

After careful review of Klyosov 2009a paper, and his 2011 paper, I have come to notice that a lot of these calibrated TMRCA underwent great lengths of data processing, which pretty much defeats the purpose of using random data. Klyosov correction formula for back mutations:

Lamba=Lambaobs/2(1+exp(Lambaobs)) for completely symmetrical

Is pretty much a fudge factor, is a way for him to manipulate the data to fit his calculations. STRs trees aren't symmetric for the mere reason that the mutation rate itself increases with repeat length, so there is a bias for up mutations vs down mutations. Also none of his methods, be it the mutation counting method, nor the logarithmic method are backed by any other methodology, be it modeling mutations as discrete bernoulli distributions, or continuous poisson distributions.

All STRs mutation rates are subject to a constrain, any TMRCA older than 1/mu, where mu is the mutation rate, is due to be underestimated, using the ASD methodology.

Van, your re-mentioned questions and ideas were explained before. Charles and the few others who seem to have done relatively well in the longer run (though I don't aspire to Charles' muscle loss, which he claimed to be pleased with, the last I saw, as helpful for his long-distance running, which probably contributed to it, though IIRC he blamed it on eating fewer calories) on their cooked VLC diets (Charles even boasts about cooking his meats well done) are greatly outnumbered by those who did not do well and either quit or were banned by Charles (he does not allow negative reports).

They don't necessarily have good insulin sensitivity. They just avoid spiking insulin (and BG).

Dropping fruit did not remineralize my dental cary, whereas it did remineralize after adding sparkling mineral water + prebiotic foods.

Probably no single food or substance, except water, is "necessary." One can do without RS, and also without meat. That doesn't mean one should avoid them like poisons. It does suggest that it is not necessary to gorge on them every day.

Tyler, Yes, there is individual variation, in not just the DNA of our flesh, but also the majority of our DNA, which is in our microbes. Meat and connective tissue bacteria probably do help make VLC more tolerable for some, including traditional Eskimos. I suspect that this is one reason that rawists tend to be able to stay VLC longer than cooked foodists. Many cooked VLCers seem to be attracted to it by the prospect of being given the OK to eat all the crispy-fried bacon, cooked sausage and pasteurized butter they want. Thus, they tend to be even more anti-raw than vegans and vegetarians.

As Eric pointed out before, the so-called "high-meat" based on Aajonus' recommendations is not how the Eskimos make it, so perhaps authentic Eskimo high meat would help more. Maybe other traditional Eskimo foods, like muktuk (such as the narwhal skin you mentioned), raw seal liver, raw and briefly-cooked Eskimo potatoes, raw caribou liver and stomach contents, fermented birds, stinkflipper, stink heads, wild berries, tree saps, barks and teas, etc. (varying by availability in different regions, of course) helped the Eskimoes to avoid much of the longer-term problems that modern people report on raw and cooked VLC diets.

Ironically, I didn't have as poor early results from VLC early on as you did, which unfortunately contributed to my staying VLC for too long, thinking it was safe, even if not necessarily optimal, until it gradually became clear that it wasn't working well for me in the longer run, and I eventually found some ways to do better (though it took time).

---

Van, Yes, the beneficial bacteria that feed on meats are likely different from those that feed on plant foods. They probably all help in some way to get through the intermittent fasts and lean times. Yes, it does seem that the most extreme VLCers who cut all vegetable, fruit, sea vegs. and vit. C sources tend to fare worst. The Eskimos never did that. It's strange that they use the Eskimos to support doing things that the Eskimos themselves would never do. Even when I was VLC, I didn't understand why some people assumed they could get just as good results as the Eskimos eating nothing but Walmart ground beef and water (and maybe some butter), like our past active member, Katelyn, who later dumped VLC.

I suspect that many of the improvements that many people experience after dramatic dietary changes are mainly due to changes in their microbiota. It will be interesting to see what future research finds.

And most of the Inuit and Siberians were recently found to have a gene mutation that makes it impossible for their youth to generate ketone bodies or utilize them for energy!

http://vegetablepharm.blogspot.com/2014/11/of-eskimos-and-atkins.html
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/12/acknowledge-ketogenic-recommend.html
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2814%2900422-4

Plus even the adults were never found to generate significant ketone bodies, despite multiple attempts to find this (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/reiterate-elevated-ketone.html). The assumption made by some keto/VLC advocates was that the low ketone readings of the Inuit were because they were "keto-adapted" (so efficient at metabolizing ketone bodies for energy that scant few remain in the urine or serum) but that assumption is looking pretty flimsy these days.

While some ability to generate and presumably use ketone bodies eventually develops in Inuits as they mature, there is still no evidence that they ever become particularly well adapted to them. If they can't use ketones much for energy, it hardly makes sense to call their traditional diet "ketogenic." So while the Inuit diet was higher-fat than many nutritionists and physicians would recommend, it's looking like the notion that it was ketogenic for them was yet another Paleomyth. Of course, confirmation bias will likely prevent many keto/VLC diet proponents from considering this possibility for some time to come. How ironic that it may turn out that the Inuit are one of the least truly ketogenic populations on earth.

Eventually there will likely be a shift in the keto/VLC wing toward emphasizing free fatty acids (FFAs) as an energy source, rather than ketone bodies (some already were emphasizing FFAs more, like Peter of the Hyperlipid blog (http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2014/11/coconuts-and-cornstarch-in-arctic.html, http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-p479l-gene-for-cpt-1a-and-fatty.html). Ray Peat, Spanish Caravan (an ex-"LC doctor"), Danny Roddy and others have also warned against chronically elevating FFAs. It will be interesting to see what future research and discussion reveals about that.

Over time, increasing numbers of people will probably feel rather silly for having shelled out $'s for ketostix and serum ketone meters, and presumably more will become quite angry at those who persuaded them to buy the stuff and embark on unproven extreme diets, making guinea pigs of them.

I have some level of discomfort with using the Inuit as poster people for a ketogenic diet. That's fine. They may well have eaten what would be a ketogenic diet for many of us, but they certainly did not develop high levels of ketones when they carried the P479L gene.

- Petro (Peter) Dobromylskyj, http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-p479l-gene-for-cpt-1a-and-fatty.html

This looks interesting:

Pocket Guide to Kidney Stone Prevention: Dietary and Medical Therapy
edited by Manoj Monga, Kristina L. Penniston, David S. Goldfar
Springer, Nov 1, 2014
 
Given that humans have long depended on bacteria to regulate oxalate degredation, it makes sense that a healthy gut "microbiome" (outnumbering the host's own genes 150-fold) ( 8 ) could reduce oxalate absorption and urinary excretion. However, disruptions in the host-microbe environment are common and may include antibiotic use, a diet suboptimal for prebiotic material (food providing non-digestible matter required by bacteria as a substrate), altered GI physiology, and inflammatory bowel diseases, especially those that shorten gut transit time.

8. Wu GD, Lewis JD. Analysis of the human gut microbiota and association with disease. Clin Gastroenterol Hepat. 2013; 7:774-7
 
 
Oxalate Degradation by Gastrointestinal Bacteria from Humans
MILTON J. ALLISON, HERBERT M. COOK, DAVID B. MILNE, SANDRA GALLAGHER AND RALPH V. CLAYMAN
J. Nutr. 116: 455-460, 1986.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/116/3/455.full.pdf

ABSTRACT Anaerobic bacteria that metabolize oxalic acid have only recently been isolated from the rumen and from other gastrointestinal habitats. They constitute a new genus and species, Oxalobacter formigenes. This report presents the first comparison of cultural counts of these organisms from human feces and indicates that numbers as high as 107/g may be present in feces from normal humans. Rates of oxalate degradation by mixed bacterial populations in feces from seven normal humans ranged from 0.1 to 4.8 /imol/(g- h). With fecal samples from eight patients that had undergone jejunoileal bypass surgery, rates were much lower [0-0.006 ^mol/(g-h)]. We propose that oxalic acid degradation by Oxalobacter formigenes may influence absorption of oxalate from the intestine and that lower rates or lack of oxalate degradation in the colons of jejunoileal bypass patients may contribute to the increased absorption of dietary oxalate and the hyperoxaluria commonly associated with such patients.


Probiotics and Other Key Determinants of Dietary Oxalate Absorption
Michael Liebman and Ismail A. Al-Wahsh
Department of Family and Consumer Sciences (Human Nutrition), University of Wyoming, Laramie, WY 82071
http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/3/254.full

... Oxalate degradation by oxalate-degrading bacteria within the GIT is another key factor that could affect oxalate absorption and degree of oxaluria. Studies that have assessed the efficacy of oral ingestion of probiotics that provide bacteria with oxalate-degrading capacity have led to promising but generally mixed results, and this remains a fertile area for future studies.


Gut Microbiota in Health and Disease
Inna Sekirov , Shannon L. Russell , L. Caetano M. Antunes , B. Brett Finlay
Physiological ReviewsPublished 1 July 2010Vol. 90no. 3, 859-904DOI: 10.1152/physrev.00045.2009
http://physrev.physiology.org/content/90/3/859

In addition to the microbiota's contribution to metabolism of medicines administered with therapeutic purposes, it also has the ability to metabolize certain dietary compounds into metabolically active forms that proceed to influence various aspects of host health. For instance, gut Bifidobacterium strains conjugate dietary linoleic acid (223), which has a wide variety of biological effects (45). Oral microbiota was required for reduction of dietary nitrate to biologically active nitrite (235). Additionally, Oxalobacter formigenes has the ability to degrade dietary oxalates, reducing urinary oxalate excretion (275), which prompted its successful use in clinical trials as a therapeutic and prophylactic option in calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis and associated renal failure (124). Furthermore, gut inhabitants can prove invaluable in preventing adverse outcomes following inadvertent environmental exposure to toxic compounds: the toxicity of hydrazine, a highly toxic compound used in a variety of industrial processes, is greatly reduced by the gut microbiota (302).

'Sweet potato does not require processing or cooking before eating, and indeed was probably eaten raw as a source of both carbohydrates and water.'

...analysis also found starch grains that matched those from modern sweet potatoes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2875836/Tiny-fossils-embedded-dental-plaque-human-teeth-reveal-doomed-Easter-Island-civilisation-mainly-ate-sweet-potato.html

Interesting, thanks.

Whoa! Epsom salts is another harsh laxative (one of the harshest forms of magnesium--which is why it's usually used externally, rather than internally) and 2 TBSPs is way more than the recommended laxative dose of 1 to 2 tsp. First overdosing on castor oil, now epsom salts. Why are you using a harsh laxative so soon after the last wash out? You are taking some serious risks.  I can't imagine consuming so much castor oil and epsom salts and I find it hard to believe that anyone could take such huge doses and not have horrendous results. Sorry, but your posts are becoming increasingly strange and they smack of the sort of thing some trolls wrote in the past (not only this laxative stuff, but also past comments about parasites and Paleo being very costly, claims that eating meats raw that aren't 100% grass fed is risky, and a vegan video, and such). You've written the sort of bizarre things that vegan trolls tend to write. If you're telling the truth, then you are taking unecessary serious risks.

How should I take Magnesium Sulfate?

Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)
Use exactly as directed on the label, or as prescribed by your doctor.

Never use a higher dose of magnesium sulfate than recommended on the package label, or as your doctor has directed. Using too much magnesium sulfate can cause serious, life-threatening side effects.

http://www.everydayhealth.com/drugs/magnesium-sulfate#dosage

Is there a family member or someone you trust who you can discuss your extreme dieting and harsh laxative use with? And if you can afford going to the ER, then you presumably you can afford talking to a physician about it, yes?

Much of what you have been talking about and claiming you have been doing is not "Paleo" by any stretch of the imagination. Sabertooth and others are right that there are much more reasonable alternatives.

It can be so, though I'll warn raw purists that the Redwood Hill Farm kefir is pasteurized.

     that's my point, we don't die, and we do adapt very readily from foods our ancestors have never eaten for thousands of years.

Yeah, I was just trying to be funny. Unfortunately some Paleoists do take things too literally and avoid some foods just because they weren't specifically consumed by their ancestors (yet eat others that they aren't aware weren't consumed by their ancestors). Due to the influence of Cordain and Audette, I leaned a bit too heavily in that direction myself early on, until I later learned more and thought it through.

Beef pretty much never has parasites, but wild game can have trichinosis. I do eat raw wild game, but I recognize the risks. Saltwater fish generally don't carry parasites that humans can get.

Yeah, I'm not concerned about it, and I've seen reports that even most of the parasites in freshwater fish just go right through humans and provoke little or no symptoms. I just find it strange that many Westerners are so afraid to eat beef raw.

FWIW, some reports do claim that a parasitic infection can be also acquired from saltwater fish, and it's a major reason why saltwater sashimi fish is required to be frozen, though cases are rare and I'm not concerned about it (http://seafoodhealthfacts.org/seafood_safety/patients/parasites.php, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3868394/#eot008-B117)

At 12am EST, right before going to bed, I took 5 table spoons of Castor oil and had some Gaia Rapid Relief Herbal Tea. At about 330/4am i awoke and had severe liquid bowel movements for the next hour or so. There was lots of in digested food chunks(I need to chew my foods more, always been a problem), and other things I could not make out. What bothered be most was the endless gurgling sound coming from intestines/stomach? It does not sound healthy at all! Would it be safe to assume I have leaky/ a damaged gut or intestines?

Castor oil is a rather harsh laxative, as you've experienced, which is why it was traditionally used only once or twice a year. If there was a blockage, then it's strange that it all came out liquid. At least you can rest assured that you don't have a blockage now. Perhaps you can now develop a less extreme diet that works for you. Exercise can also help to keep things moving.

Glad you understood me! I guess Phil was joking.

Yup!  I'm not afraid of either domesticated meats or bananas.

On a more serious note, questions like the one in the original post can only be answered for sure by the individual himself/herself. No one can know what's going to work for someone else.

It's a bit strange that Westerners tend to be more willing to eat fish raw than beef. Isn't fish more likely to contain parasites, rather than less? I read that somewhere.