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Messages - 24isours

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General Discussion / Re: How Long Does Raw Fat Keep?
« on: August 04, 2013, 07:45:02 pm »
Great. Thank you all for the replies. I usually just take it out of the freezer to thaw in the fridge the day before I'm going to eat it - especially if it is back fat, yum. I have eaten moldy fat but prefer the taste of less aged fat. Interesting article Jessica. I'd have to save that fat for the dogs though :]

It could be that your body is reacting to such high amounts of retinol (vitamin a). Do you balance your Vitamin A intake with Vitamin D?

General Discussion / How Long Does Raw Fat Keep?
« on: August 03, 2013, 06:27:20 am »
I can't seem to find anything on how long raw fat keeps in the freezer. Anyone have any idea?  Thanks

Health / Re: Not doing good on raw paleo 2weeks in
« on: July 27, 2013, 08:00:18 pm »
ahh, very good!  thanks for the update!  glad you are figuring some things out that are beneficial to you... 
keep us posted on your progress!

my daughter also has low blood pressure...

Some salt + sunlight (vitamin d) fixed my low blood pressure issues.

Health / Re: Not doing good on raw paleo 2weeks in
« on: July 23, 2013, 09:14:05 pm »
So i started raw paleo caus i have had a week digestion all my life, NO allergies but not ever been hungry. I was hoping raw would strengthen my digestion. However now 2weeks in with mostly lamb/beef meat, beef fat, bone marrow i feel no power in my legs and i never feel like eating, feels like im always full but NO bloating/constipation/gas. I am loosing weight and would now be classifeid as underweight. Fruit is NOT a solution since all fruit makes me less hungry then ever (been on and off frutarian for abot a year before and my body just hate fruit now). What is also scaring me is that my eyes a getting blood shot every time after i eat. Been trying to mix it up with seafood but every seafood gives me a fever feeling and chills. I know this diet is much more then my body ever can handle right now but im not knowing if it trys to adjust or if i have physical problems inhibiting me from eating this way ever.

Don't overdo the protein.
Eat enough fat.
Include organ meat in your diet.
Add a little bit of sea salt to your diet.
Exercise. (even if its just walking until you adapt)
**Get plenty of sunlight (Vitamin D).**

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Low-carb limbo
« on: July 23, 2013, 08:51:39 pm »
Where did you read this?

It was cited by Dr. Gabriel Cousins based on research done at the Max Planck Institute in Germany. I can't seem to find this study anywhere. If you really research into the effects cooking has on protein, you will find that a good part of the protein does in fact become insoluble when heated. The longer its heated the more insoluble it becomes.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Low-carb limbo
« on: July 18, 2013, 09:22:28 am »
I see your point and I think I'm settling into an idea of it. I see what Lex was after and that his downfall may have been too much protein, which got converted to glycogen via GNG, keeping him in limbo.
Well that and not enough fat. Since he probably wasn't eating enough fat, he was most likely breaking down muscle for fuel as well - which I'm pretty sure is even more taxing on the body than gluconeogenesis.

Does that mean you believe GNG happens only after your body's basic protein need is filled, rather than Lex's idea of up to 58% of ALL consumed protein can be turned into glycogen?

From what I've read and my experience, yes. When you read about the process of gluconeogenesis kicking in - it is always mentioned as the body's last resort preference to obtain fuel. So, why would the body convert around half of ALL protein consumed into glucose if it is taxing on the body? Most likely it wouldn't if there is enough fuel coming in elsewhere.

Also, a point to mention - how can the body be using ketones as fuel while there is glucose floating around the bloodstream from protein? Keep in mind the body can also make glucose from ketones. (acetone). I mention this just because some people say the body can't run without glucose. Anyway, you can read about that here if you'd like:

Now, I'm still unsure if during keto-adaptation, if one plans on remaining omnivorous with 1-2 pieces of fruit daily (10-20g of carbs) one should continue to consume that many carbs, in hopes the body will adapt to ketones, or will the body just continue to try and run on few carbs until they are depleted for a time? Then, after a time in ketosis (ketonuria) one could add back in a low amount of carbs, infrequently, without any side effects of re-adapting?

I'm not sure about this as I've never experimented with adding in low amounts of carbs to my ZC diet but here is something interesting:

Dr. Phinney (author of 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living') claims he stays in ketosis and his diet consists of the following:

"I stay between 25 and 50 grams of carbohydrate a day.  I eat a moderate amount of protein.  It’s not a high-protein diet. I eat 2800 calories a day, and so if moderate protein is 500 to 600 calories a day and carbohydrate is around 100 calories a day, I’m eating over 2,000 calories of fat to maintain my body weight.  I run in the 70 – 80% of energy intake as fat."

So, this would mean he eats around 125-150 grams of protein but you have to keep in mind cooking protein denatures it; 50% of it I've read is unable to be utilised, which would obviously make less protein available (62-75g) for conversion to glucose. This would put him in the maintenance zone for protein; meaning just enough to maintain lean mass and not be converted to glucose. This makes sense because I've noticed I can eat a lot more cooked protein (around double) without getting sick from excess protein. If I eat around 90g+ of raw beef, the protein makes me sick.

This is where it gets tough. It seems to me that its best to either do well on carbs and do a CKD to remain low-carb most of the time with a loading time (which I don't find loading on carbs to be that "energizing" so I question this process anyways) or just go full carnivorous. The tricky thing is, a keto-adapted person can consume 10g of carbs with no issue, and someone can stay glycogen adapted living on a low-carb diet in the 30g/day area? So does it just come down to consistency? Is low carb limbo when the keto-adapted person consumed x amount of carbs (x is low-carb limbo inducing) daily and then his body decides that glycogen is preferred over ketones, regardless of the amount of fat? Can this change if someone is keto-adapted for 4 months vs. a year? Lex didn't seem to be in ketonuria when he upped his fat, since he became really fatigued and was overdoing his protein amount, according to many who are fully in ketosis.  So was his body hanging onto the glycogen from excess protein?

Technically a CKD wouldn't really be ketogenic diet. You are loading up on carbs to use glycogen to fuel your workouts. Once that glycogen runs out you have to reload up on carbs to avoid limbo.

Take a look at this:

"Say, you are fully ketoadapted - i.e have been eating a very low carb (some days zero carb) diet for months and feel great on it.
What happens if one day you eat a bunch of carbs (eg 100g in one go). How does your body react? Is it the same as someone who eats carbs every day (over 200g) and if not how does the body response differ? Will you continue to be keto adapted the next day, when you go back to ultra low carb?

And what if you don't just have one load of carbs, but raise your carbs for a couple of days, eating them throughout the day. Will you become glucose adapted, and then have to go through the couple of weeks it takes to be keto adapted all over again?

I've been dying to understand all this, and would appreciate any help!!"

Here is the answer:

"It's a matter of enzymes. When you're keto-adapted, you have induced the proper enzymes to utilize fats for energy and you are able to obtain required glucose by gluconeogenesis from glucogenic amino acids and glycerol. If you are doing zero-carb or something close to it, you will have down-regulated the enzymes required to process carbohydrate.

For that reason, if a very-low-carber has a glucose tolerance test, the results will be skewed. He/she simply will not have the enzymes available to process the glucose properly. That's why the doctor will recommend eating 100 carbs per day for about three days prior to a glucose tolerance test. It takes about that long to get the carb-processing enzymes back and functioning efficiently in the gut.

Just one day of eating 100 grams of carbs shouldn't have much effect. Because of the extra insulin requirement and a carb-induced boost in your glycogen stores, you can expect a temporary gain in water weight. Eating extra carbs long-term will switch you back to the extra insulin release leads to insulin resistance leads to fat storage mode. Which is why you can't lose weight on low-carb and maintain the weight loss on low-fat/low-calorie.

If you then go back to low-carbing, the transition to keto-adaptation should be much quicker. The body has a memory for things it has experienced before. However, because of that, you will not experience the high degree of metabolic advantage that newbie low-carbers enjoy. That may be why people say that with low-carbing you get "One Golden Shot." Low-carb still works, but after the first time it works more slowly and it's much less common to see rapid, huge weight losses."

Considering excess protein forming glycogen, and not having the experience to do well, would I lose too much muscle mass if I went to 100% fat for 2 days, then added 10g of protein extra each subsequent day (3rd-10g, 4th-20g, 5th-30g, etc) trying to demand of my body to use those ketones more quickly instead of sacrificing the protein into glycogen?

I'd recommend eating a low amount of protein (for maintenance), say 50 grams to start with enough fat to make you feel well. From there you can slowly experiment by adding in more protein.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Low-carb limbo
« on: July 17, 2013, 12:16:39 am »
Thank you. That's good info. However, I still feel inconclusive on the low carb limbo issue. Yes, things like eggs and oysters can provide 10 g of carbs in an average sitting, But I'm not sold that all carbs are the same.

I guess the best I can do is experiment and see what works for me, trying my best to maintain consistency, something I find hard to do in the plant world.

Ten grams of carbohydrates will most likely not set off 'Low Carb Limbo', as I hear of many  people staying in ketosis with such small amounts of carbohydrates because they are used up rapidly.

I think the point he is trying to make is to stay away from such an amount that will cause the glucose to be thrown into storage; as enough glycogen will supply the muscles with fuel instead of ketones, eventually causing the body to flush the ketones and use its usual first choice of stored glycogen.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Low-carb limbo
« on: July 16, 2013, 11:30:31 pm »
I'm still not settled on this idea of limbo. Essentially the article is saying, if you are in the 5-30g/day of carbs group, then you are probably in limbo. More and you can hit a CKD, but I think he says about 50g per day and less will have you leaning on limbo, including one day a week where you glycogen load with ~150-200g of carbs. I personally find glycogen loading to be counteractive to training ketone use, but some people seem to fare well.

Also, as I am reading through Lex's journal (what a gold mine!) I see he advocates for a mostly animal diet and only about 1 piece of fruit or a salad daily. This would clearly leave someone in the 5-30g of carbs/day group. This is blatantly contradictory to the article.

So here's my question: Who's right; Lex or Primal North?

P.S. Eve: I understand what you mean now about it not being Mg. I don't think it was any vit. deficiency. Perhaps a mineral deficiency or perhaps thats just my response to losing carbs. I want to try again asap because the more I read I feel like carnivory would be great. But I would also rather not miss out on the world of a little sugar whilst young. ;) You said you are low-carb, mod. protein, high fat? What's your approx macronutrient breakdown?

As far as what I've read the body requires a certain amount of protein to maintain lean muscle. I believe that number is between .8g - 1g protein per kg of weight. Any extra protein will be used as glucose. During Lex's keto experiment he was eating around 80-90 grams of protein as well as 195 grams of fat. He said exercise was very much unappealing to him, which was exactly how I felt when I was in 'Low Carb Limbo'. I don't think Lex was eating enough fat to maintain energy levels. If you notice, he loses weight on the diet, which makes me think he was using his own body fat as fuel. Also, his protein seemed a little bit high (90g) and some of this was most likely converted to glucose. Soon after, he dropped his protein intake down to 70g - which was low enough for him to decide to go back to higher protein and lower fat. Maybe if Lex were to eat more fat (220+ grams) and keep his protein around 70-75 grams he would have done better on the diet?

General Discussion / Re: How much do you guys spend a month on food?
« on: July 14, 2013, 05:58:34 am »
I prefer fat trimmings and back fat over suet. When I first started the diet I wasn't able to digest suet well so I switched over and wound up just staying away from it. Personally, I find suet to be dry and way less tastier than other fatty parts of the animal as well. The only preparing I do is thawing it in the fridge and then slicing it in chunks before eating.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Low-carb limbo
« on: July 06, 2013, 08:57:27 pm »
I read this article a while back and enjoyed it. Here is a quote from the article that really rang a bell for me as I was stuck in the 'Low Carb Limbo' myself:

 "On one side of the wall is the "mostly glycogen" burning way of eating, on the other side is the "mostly ketone" burning way of eating.  In the middle? A mine field of low carb limbo."

Too much glycogen from either protein or carbs will put you into this low carb limbo of constant keto adapting due to gylcogen depletion.

Primal North's article focused on athletes, and I admit that I don't understand his differentiation between keto-adaptation and fat adaptation, but I admire his stance that you don't need cheat days or other forms of carb-loading.

The difference between being fat adapted and keto adapted is quite simple. He is saying that on a normal diet (high in carbs/calories) our bodies will always oxidize some fatty acids along with glycogen to fuel our muscles; making most people that exercise on a high carbohydrate already somewhat fat adapted. Also, while being somewhat fat adapted on a high carbohydrate, high calorie diet you will not be using any ketones during exercise to fuel the muscles.

If you lower your calories enough on a high carbohydrate diet you will become even more fat adapted, while the body will start using more fat and even small amounts of ketones to fuel your muscles if the amount of calories consumed is low enough (say, just enough calories for the metabolism to run but not enough extra for energy). You will gain more access to fat stores and ketone production by limiting calories because less glycogen will be available to fuel the muscles.

Once you make that switch to getting the majority of your calories from fat (assuming protein intake and carb intake is low enough), he is saying the muscle fuel mix will be almost a 50/50 mix of fatty acid oxidation and ketones. Glycogen use will be minimal.

I hope I'm able to complete this effectively with correct minerals with the food sources I have right now.

It seems like a lot of members on here are worried about minerals. I seem to be doing fine with just a small amount of organ meat mixed in with my muscle meat as well as an extra 2 teaspoons of salt every day for the past year or so.

General Discussion / Re: How much do you guys spend a month on food?
« on: July 04, 2013, 09:45:47 pm »
I'd say those symptoms as well as weight loss (if you are overweight and restricting calories) would be signs. I've noticed after eating too much protein I'd get headaches, joint pain, diarrhea and feel fatigued. After experimenting with protein intake and finding that sweet spot I would notice higher energy, increased stamina/strength, mental clarity, normal bowel movements and an increased tolerance to stress.

Just wanted to make it clear that an initial weight loss of 4+ lbs in a week (water and glycogen loss) is also a great indicator of being in ketosis; whether or not you are restricting calories.

General Discussion / Re: How much do you guys spend a month on food?
« on: July 04, 2013, 09:32:26 pm »
I kinda feel late in the adaptation stage. Because I've been off adderall for 4 days now and coffee for about 12 I think, and I remember making a conscious decision to severely for carbs when I cut coffee so I didn't have to deal with the constant up and down of blood sugar. I don't know if adderall prevents ketosis but I stopped because I was eating so good that it made me feel worse rather than better.

I guess when I'm keto I'll know right?

Yes, you will know. A good indicator of being in ketosis would be a sudden loss of 4+ pounds in a week. This would be due to glycogen and water loss. If I change my diet to a carb based one I gain about 8 lbs in 3 days (water weight for the most part). After switching back to a keto diet after those 3 days it takes me about 5 days to drop these 8 lbs. Good for you for dropping the Adderall and coffee! You shouldn't need either one on a ketogenic diet anyway :)

General Discussion / Re: How much do you guys spend a month on food?
« on: July 04, 2013, 08:59:23 pm »
How many carbs do you guys eat a day. For the past month I've only had a teaspoon of honey, 1-3 pieces of fruit, and the occasional couple of teaspoons of jam or almond butter. I don't think that puts Mr over 100 g at the worst, usually it wasn't that high. For the past 3 days I've been Vlc with today being one teaspoon of honey with my fat. I feel really good after tonights meal: 5 oz suet, 4 oz salmon, 4 oz liver, little honey. I think I'm in ketosis. What do you guys think?

I eat about 1g per day. If you've only been eating 5 oz suet, 4 oz salmon, 4 oz liver, little honey for the past few days you are well on your way. You are most likely in the adaption stage.

Journals / Re: Just starting ZC carnivor, might need pointers plz
« on: July 04, 2013, 06:52:30 am »
Sounds like that can be the trouble with the spleen, will wait and see if it goes away, other then that i feel good, somewhat low in energy but i guess it takes some time for me to up the ketones?

Thank you so much 24isours. I am doing more protein but not by much (im under 100g), i do about 500g of some sort of muscle meat/organ meat a day then i just eat beef fat until im not hungry. However some days i have done 400g of kidneys or liver...
Why do you eat so little organ meats? Why is not your main source of protein from oragan meat? What is your preferred source of protein and fat?

You are welcome! The reason why I limit organ meat consumption is because I eat it mixed in with my meat daily. I seem to be doing okay eating this amount. Four hundred grams of liver too often could make you sick as it contains a lot of Vitamin A. I also take into account the bodys ability to store fat soluble vitamins - making me think that we don't need such a massive amount of them often. The body knows best.

General Discussion / Re: How much do you guys spend a month on food?
« on: July 04, 2013, 06:41:45 am »
id assume im in ketosis because my diet is about 70 percent fat. I also feel a difference in my energy. I have a much more stable less erratic type energy now than compared to when im eating lots of carbs. I notice a very distinct difference in the type of energy I feel and I assume this feeling is ketosis.

How can I know besides. those things?

I'd say those symptoms as well as weight loss (if you are overweight and restricting calories) would be signs. I've noticed after eating too much protein I'd get headaches, joint pain, diarrhea and feel fatigued. After experimenting with protein intake and finding that sweet spot I would notice higher energy, increased stamina/strength, mental clarity, normal bowel movements and an increased tolerance to stress.

General Discussion / Re: How much do you guys spend a month on food?
« on: July 04, 2013, 06:29:55 am »
There are urine ketone tests available.

Urine ketone tests are inaccurate. If you are in ketosis, ketones should NOT be spilling out of the urine.

There are specific drugs you can get from any doctor which get rid of parasites. At any rate, RPDers as a whole very rarely report getting parasites and symptoms are usually harmless if they ever do get them.

Iodide/Iodine works as well for getting rid of parasites.

Also, over eating protein while cheating will take you out of ketosis.

     Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but since it's toward the top of the list, I won't feel too bad about it. Just wanted to share my experience.

     I have a LOT more energy being ZC. Previously, I worked out constantly, but I hated running, hated anything more than super gentle yoga. Even yoga exhausted me. I had no energy. The only time I've had less energy was FIRST going ZC. First transitioning is hell. I have a 3-year-old little boy and the first several days to week of trying to keep up with him and be a good parent were hideous. I just wanted to sit, sleep, stay in bed, etc. The only reason I stuck with it is because of the EXTREME relief when it came to my digestive system. I had a flat stomach and no pain (from looking 9 months pregnant and constant agony and digestive distress for years) within two days of starting. After about a week, I suddenly had more energy than I've had in years and now play with my 3-year-old more than I ever have. My house is also immaculate! It's seriously like I'm on speed or something, I get so much done in a day. Mind you, it probably only took a week because I was already LC/paleo prior to going ZC (the bloating came from IBS, which was the result of a condition called fructose malabsorption).

     Since beginning, I have "cheated" a few times. I've thought eating one item would be ok, like part of a potato, or just recently, a couple blocks of Kerrygold grassfed cheese. Now whenever I ingest too many carbs of any type, I'd say anything over 5g (a limit I sometimes approach due to egg consumption), my energy is suddenly crap again and I have to readjust. Now it generally only takes a few days to get back to what I'm guessing is just full on ketosis, but then again, I never go and carb binge or anything.

     So I don't know if the issue is getting too many carbs in other areas... I know some ZCers use heavy cream, eat cheese, tons of eggs, liver regularly, etc... but it can add up. And especially if you occasionally have a carb source. Otherwise, you should adjust.

     If it's truly not that, then I'd imagine it's not enough fat. If I'm feeling tired, it's always one of three things: 1.) I haven't slept enough (surprise, surprise), 2.) I haven't had enough fat, 3.) I haven't had enough water. Lots of water and lots of fat and I'm good to go. I often have so much energy that I have to go bike for about an hour or run just to burn some of it. I also lift weights several times a week and sit down maybe once a day, at night, for like half an hour. Soooo much energy.

Hey Jackie,

     Glad to hear you are feeling well and that you've turned around your health problems! In response to your  symptoms of low energy, I will throw out some possibilities I am familiar with that could be causing your fatigue:

Food Intolerance/Allergy to possibly eggs or cheese (dairy)?
Do you always include eggs and cheese in your normal diet or do you just add them in when you 'cheat'? This is probably not the case if you regularly consume these.

Nightshades Sensitivity -
When you cheat you mentioned eating some potatoes. Some people are very sensitive to nightshades. The glycoalkaloids in the nightshade family are most likely the cause of this.

When I do cheat and if I decide to eat carbohydrates I stick with the cleanest carbohydrates (fruit and white rice being the only carbs). The last time I cheated, these are the only carbs I had eaten and had no problem getting back into ketosis without noticeable detox/adaption symptoms. If I cheat and decide to eat anything (gluten,soy,dairy,etc..) for a few days the detox symptoms are debilitating.

Journals / Re: Just starting ZC carnivor, might need pointers plz
« on: July 03, 2013, 09:29:26 pm »
Hello Fave,

    I don't know if you've recently given up a high carb diet but from my experience, shortness of breath and tightness in the spleen area is something I temporarily went through when I had given up grains. I would say it is part of the cleansing process. I've been ZC now for two years and have not experienced any problems without consuming plant food. I am sure to include a little organ meat everyday as it is a necessary source of vitamins for ZCers. Over doing the protein can really make you sick - so be careful. To give you an idea of what my diet is like here are some macronutrient breakdowns:


Protein: 75g
Fat: 250g
Carbs: I eat around 40g of Liver/Heart per day which is about 1g/carbs

This is not my  personal experience. At the moment my consumption of calcium is minimal while I have been supplementing magnesium and potassium for years. My average intake of magnesium per day is between 200 and 300% RDA, my average intake of calcium is below 50% a day, and my intake of potassium is about 80% RDA a day. I avoid dairy.  I find it difficult to get more magnesium and potassium from food sources than I actually do, about 50% RDA in each case. I over supplement magnesium because it helps control my atrial fibrillation.I do not place all that much importance on RDA as the values established were based on populations eating refined carbohydrates which cause the wasting of magnesium and potassium and the retention of sodium. The leg cramps appeared after I switched to eating below 50g of carbohydrates a day. If the leg cramps do not improve I think I will have to increase my carbs and potassium rich carbohydrates in particular.

Ever think you may be restricting carbs now to the point where your body may be going into ketosis and losing sodium stores? Increasing sodium while your carbohydrates are low will more than likely help your cramps.

What's your diet like? It would help other members considering RZC. I still eat some carbs (90-120 grams daily, some times more) but I'm interested in how you often you eat organ meats too. I eat muscle meat regularly, and once weekly I'll eat 4 oz of liver, brain, and heart. Do you eat more organ meats than muscle meat?

How is your salt intake? How much fat and what type do you use?

Just recently I've bought meat from a new vender but for the past year I've been eating Pet Food from Slankers daily. I'm sure you are aware that it does contain around 10% organ meat. Here is a break down of what I've been eating for the past year:

I eat around 200 grams of Pet Food, along with another 200 grams of regular ground beef for a total of 400 Grams of ground beef. That leaves me with about:

860 Calories
74 Grams of Protein
60 Grams of Fat

I also throw in 190 Grams of Buffalo Fat Trimmings for a total of around:

2573 Calories Per Day
250 Grams of Fat
74 Grams of Protein

My salt intake is anywhere from 4g - 6g per day (celtic sea salt).
I also drink around a gallon of water per day. (I go to the gym 6 days a week)

I am thriving on a RZC Diet. A lot of care and attention must go toward such a diet for it to work correctly. Through trial and error it can be very successful approach. Like Boss mentioned, too much protein can be a big problem on RZC as it will cause negative reactions. You have to find your sweet spot with protein and fat intake. I've noticed with my body, too much protein will cause nausea, dizziness, and joint pain while not enough fat will give me headaches.  Not enough salt and I will find myself getting groggy (most likely low blood pressure) and fatigued. Organ meat is very important if you are eating only meat - without organ meat you will run into deficiencies.

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