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Messages - TylerDurden

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General Discussion / Re: Protein and fat digestion
« on: May 23, 2008, 04:46:06 pm »
I agree re salt being useless. But, actually, the argument re needing salt for vegetables is absurd. The main use of salt, throughout history, has been to preserve raw meats, something that was essential in eras before fridges were invented. Salt has also been particularly useful as regards covering up the lack of taste of cooked-foods in general, especially cooked meats, which is why salt was used so much when cooking foods. Once you go raw, salt becomes unnecessary.

Welcoming Committee / Re: Hi All
« on: May 23, 2008, 04:40:25 pm »
There's a lot of debate about salt.  It's documented that many Indian tribes - especially in South America - would make regular trips to the ocean to get salt.  The traditional Inuits also prepared their meals with, and drank brackish water which contains a low concentration of salt.  Most of the African tribes consume large amounts of blood as a staple which contains most of the salt in an animal's body.

Our modern meat processing plants remove the animal's blood so we lose that source of salt.  I'm also not so sure that paleo humans didn't consume salt if it was available.  Almost all animals will use a saltlick, or lick salt rich soil if it is available.  It appears that we need at least some source of sodium chloride in our diets.

Compared to most people I don't get much salt.  Based on what I add, it's only about 1 1/2 to 2 grams per day.


I've come across some mentions of animals seeking out salt-licks, but these were all herbivores, without exception.

General Discussion / Re: Protein and fat digestion
« on: May 22, 2008, 07:51:06 pm »
Well I don't know, wouldn't you worry if raw meat gave you loose stooles and little bits of undigested fat? Barry also mentioned that salt is needed with raw meat because it is not fresh kill with lots of blood. Of course Barry's digestion is perfect eating cooked meat - but then again what is perfect?

Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms.  I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.

His meat is quite bloody. I don't know what I am missing - but why are some adding salt and others not - some having normal stools and some not - some have other strange symptoms and some not? How do we know that what we think is the way things are - perhaps many are have putrefying (salt has to do with stomach acid and other parts of digestion) digestion and don't know!

Why is your digestion perfect ???? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!

I did try, for the first time to eat all my beef (I have never been able to - I always chewed and spat out every mouth full) because I was eating a little salt. Yesterday I had some mutton leg and this was so tough I just could not deel with it (this mutton must have been as old as the hills) - that was not a very pleasing meal >:(.



Most peoples' digestion is perfect on a raw-animal-food diet unless their digestion is somehow permanently damaged from years of eating cooked-foods - I'm not therefore the exception but the rule. I had horrible digestion with cooked-animal food, pre-raw diet, despite having lots of salt in my food at the time, so I know that salt isn't needed.

As for AV recommending grainfed meat, he's sorely misguided. Not only is the vast majority of grainfed meat raised intensively in factory-farm conditions, but even organic, grainfed meat is bad for you(by comparison to grassfed).  I think the reason why he doesn't recommend grassfed is possibly because some Primal dieters find it too difficult to get hold of grassfed meat, so he allows grainfed meat as well. Plus, Aajonus seems to be more focused on the benefits of raw animal fat, and considers it superior, even if grainfed, to cooked animal fat. However, based on mine and others' experience, I think it's obvious  that high-quality nutrients (from grassfed animals) are just as important as the issue of whether a meat is raw or cooked.

General Discussion / Re: Protein and fat digestion
« on: May 22, 2008, 04:51:40 am »
Don't worry about it , Nicola! As barry mentioned, there's plenty of salts in raw meats.

Display Your Culinary Creations / Re: Kimchi
« on: May 22, 2008, 04:49:46 am »
The pic definitely looks very tasty! I normally hate doing any recipes, preferring mono-eating, but this sort of thing is quite interesting. Plus, it's more in tune with the views held by non-raiwsts - at least, I'm sure that non-rawists wouldn't be disgusted by the above.

Primal Diet / Re: Raw Dairy
« on: May 22, 2008, 01:30:37 am »
This is a good website for finding info on local raw-dairy sources:-

Display Your Culinary Creations / Re: Is it Sushi or Sashimi?
« on: May 21, 2008, 04:28:11 pm »
Sashimi isn't wrapped in seaweed, but I think that you can sometimes get seaweed as a sort of salad with the raw fish(but separate on the plate).

Info / News Items / Announcements / Palaeo articles
« on: May 19, 2008, 06:42:32 pm »
Here are some articles by the author Ron Hoggan on the negative effects of grain- and dairy-consumption(all from a cooked-palaeo perspectiv):-

There is one pretty interesting website about raw meat eating and bodybuilding,

Thanks! I'll post a link to this blog in the relevant section elsewhere on this site.

Welcoming Committee / Re: Hi All
« on: May 15, 2008, 05:15:49 pm »
Lex, it would be useful if you posted some of the files here which you've already posted on rawpaleodiet.

I might as well post the Splendid Specimens article here for any newbies. It is a seminal piece, after all:-

Off Topic / Study Re Breastfeeding and Rheumatoid Arthritis
« on: May 14, 2008, 05:56:44 pm »
Here's a Daily Telegraph article indicating benefits for the mother, re lowered risk of rheumatoid arthritis,  if she breastfeeds her children:-

"Breast is best to fight rheumatoid arthritis
Last Updated: 10:09PM BST 12/05/2008
Women can halve their chance of rheumatoid arthritis by breast-feeding their children for more than a year, researchers have said.

Charlotte Church took to the streets of Cardiff to encourage young mothers to breast-feed their children
Scientists compared 136 women with rheumatoid arthritis with 544 of a similar age who were free from the disease. They found that those who breast-fed for 13 months or more were 54 per cent less likely to develop the condition as women who had not.

Even women who breast-fed for between one and 12 months were 26 per cent less likely to suffer the disease.

About 400,000 people in Britain have rheumatoid arthritis. The Swedish experts, writing in Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases, noted that women have more than a twofold higher incidence of rheumatoid arthritis than men.

Article continuesadvertisement
"This difference may partly be explained by hormonal factors," they wrote.

The study was published on the day that the singer Charlotte Church backed a Welsh Assembly campaign to encourage young mothers to breast-feed. Miss Church, 21, who breast-fed her eight-month-old daughter Ruby for six months, said she enjoyed bonding with her baby.

"Everybody knows mother's milk is best," she said. "

taken from:-


I remember that when I ate butter, a few years ago, I had a tremendous energy that I never had after (unfortunately, I can't tolerate butter). .

In the early stages of my diet, I also consumed raw dairy and would get an initial  massive rush of energy  for 3o minutes to an hour - then, after that period, I would feel extremely fatigued. In hindsight, I was allergic to the dairy, and the dairy had fouled up my adrenals so badly that the latter reacted with an adrenaline boost after every intake of dairy which explained my initial energy-boost and subsequent collapse - at least that's what I think.

I had very sagging muscles pre-rawpaleodiet, and gained a little muscle-tone after cutting out the raw dairy, but not on the level of a bodybuilder. I also found I gained muscle-mass quicker when I went in for extensive exercise such as weightlifting etc. - pre-rawpalaeo, I would find it extremely difficult to build muscle at all, being unable to do more than 10 minutes at the gym before collapsing in agony.

Here's a vdeo of Bear Grylls, the Survivalist TV--Presenter, eating a live frog:-

Here's a video of Bear Grylls, the Survivalist expert, eating raw meat as usual(this time it's  live snake!):-

Some RAFers(short for "Raw Animal Foodists"), like myself, prefer  to go cold-turkey and start going rawpalaeo immediately, but others prefer taking it easy taking a few steps at a time. Here are a few suggestions for the latter:-

1) First get rid of all chemicals and additives in the diet. If you live in an urban environment where tapwater is chlorinated/fluoridated, then I would suggest that you avoid drinking the tapwater and, instead, get hold of 5-litre bottles of mineral-water from natural springs, as that's generally much cheaper per litre than buying several 1.5 litre bottles of mineral-water, each time. My own preference is for alkaline mineral-water with a PH value of 7.2 to 8.4, but everyone has different tastes.

It's also a good idea to avoid contact with chemicals other than those in foods. So avoid swimming in chlorinated swimming-pools, if possible, go in for aluminium-free deodorants, non-fluoridated toothpaste, more natural soaps etc.

2) Get hold of  raw organic fruits/vegetables instead of the usual nonorganic varieties, get hold of organic or naturally-reared 100%-grassfed meats instead of intensively-farmed grainfed meats , and so on - if you can get hold of meats from wild animals, that's even better. (You can cook the meats at whatever temperature, at this stage). Make sure to include lots of fatty meats, as opposed to lean meats,  so as to avoid rabbit-starvation  (* this advice is only relevant to those who eat all-animal food diets, though*).  If there's absolutely no way you can get hold of 100%-grassfed- or wild meats, then you should try to get the healthiest grainfed/grain-finished meats that are available and heavily supplement your diet with fermented cod-liver oil or krill oil(as raw and unprocessed as possible). Blue Ice has a raw, fermented cod-liver oil, for example.

*Tip:- Most commercially-raised/non-organic-raised lamb, worldwide, is fed on grass. It's in the US, mainly, where lamb is usually fed on grains.*

Raw palaeo permitted foods include:- raw fruit, raw veg, raw meats, raw organ-meats, raw mushrooms(some varieties), raw nuts(limited), raw honey/honeycomb.

3) Remove Non-Palaeo foods like dairy and grains(even sprouted grains) and legumes from the diet. Many RAFers who eat lots of non-palaeo foods like raw dairy end up with various side-effects such as copper- and magnesium-deficiency and  hormonal issues(due to opioid hormones in raw dairy) - it should also be mentioned that the consumption of dairy and grains has  been repeatedly linked to a number of auto-immune disorders -plus, allergies to non-Palaeo foods are very common.

4)  Gradually reduce the average cooking-temperature of your foods by 1 degree, every so often,  until after days/weeks/months you're eventually able to eat all the meats raw at room-temperature. You can start off with as many processed sauces as you like(Moutarde de Meaux is by far the best mustard for this by the way as it contains no artificial preservatives even though it's processed), but you should gradually replace those with raw sauces. Eventually, you will get used to the raw meat to the point where you can eat it by itself without any sauces  or spices at all. Some RPD newbies like to use Vitamixes/blenders etc. in order to get used to the taste of raw foods, but this is up to the individual.

5) The main reason why people aren't easily accustomed to raw meats, at first,  is due to past social conditioning and lifelong habits. One way to get rid of such conditioning is to go out to local restaurants and eat raw-animal-food dishes like beef carpaccio/steak-tartare/raw-meat kitfo/raw oysters  etc - being able to eat raw-animal-food in a public place helps one get used to the whole idea . My personal favourite was to visit nearby Japanese Sashimi restaurants, and eat the raw-fish avilable there. I was already used to eating some types of raw shellfish, in pre-rawpaleo days, so the latter were easier to get used to than other raw-animal-foods.

6) Add in some raw organ-meats, especially the high-fat ones. These take a bit longer to get used to than the muscle-meats, but they are more nutrient-dense than the latter, so are very useful indeed for greater health - also, raw organ-meats do tend to be much easier to digest than raw muscle-meats, which is an important point to consider for those with digestive systems already wrecked by years of being on cooked-diets. You should start off with the standard organ-meats(ie liver, kidney, heart, tongue). More experienced RAFers/RPDers eventually opt for other organ-meats like raw adrenals, brains, marrow,  suet, thyroid etc. Also, bear in mind that organ-meats are much cheaper than muscle-meats in price. Raw glands like adrenals/thyroid etc. are also often needed as a cooked diet can often lead to deterioration of one's glandular system over time. Farms like NorthStar Bison and Slanker's supply these. If you can't find a relevant farm which can offer such glands, then try websites offering raw glandulars from grassfed cattle such as  .

*I had a bit of difficulty eating raw organic, grassfed liver in the first couple of weeks or so of trying it. My own solution was to bolt down tiny slivers of it  without chewing(you don't need to chew much on a RAF diet, anyway), and then chase each tiny sliver with a big gulp of mineral-water. I then got used to the taste and started to enjoy raw liver, so it wasn't necessary any more  to gulp the mineral-water afterwards. Funnily enough, after a while, I started getting a gag-reflex to more and more cooked-foods. I guess that is partly because one's dietary habits, to a large extent, dictate what our taste-buds experience.

7) One good reason why I was able to start enjoying the taste of my raw-animal-foods relatively quickly  was that I was always keen on getting as much variety as possible in my diet. So I would visit every nearby farmers' market(or ethnic-oriented market) until I found such exotic things as raw wild boar meat, goat meat, wild hare, mutton(which is far better than lamb and cheaper as well) - inevitably, I would find that a few of the muscle-meats tasted great the first time I tried them(eg:- raw goatmeat) while others(eg:- raw chicken) I couldn't stand the taste of(indeed raw chicken is one of the few raw meats I still don't like the taste of). I would also switch to quite different farms for the same type of meats, if those meats weren't to my liking. Too many RAFers stick to just a few foods like pork or beef from just one food-source/farm, and then, unsurprisingly, complain of the lack of taste, which is really just a lack of variety.

I should add that, according to anecdotal reports, most RAFers get used to(and start enjoying) the taste of raw animal foods, in general, within c.8 to 12 months. This is, of course, complicated by other factors - for example, the more cooked-food you eat, the less likely it is/the longer it is that you develop a taste for Raw Animal Foods(60%+ is recommended, with most RAFers sticking to 85%+ raw).

8 ) While it's very important to experiment with raw foods in a variety of ways so as to ensure your particular needs are met, I should point out that there can be a danger that one becomes too much obsessed with one's diet, to the exclusion of other matters. For example, when I first started, I'd assumed(wrongly) that if raw animal food was good that the more I ate of it each day , the faster my health-recovery would be -but I found, that, actually, the body needs some rest from digestion from time to time in order to concentrate on healing, and that Intermittent Fasting also helped to aid my health-recovery, along with my RVAF diet("RVAF Diet " is short for " Raw Animal and Vegetable Diet"). It should be noted, also, that as raw food contains far more useful nutrients than cooked-food, that it's not necessary or a good idea to eat the same amounts of food as you did on a cooked-diet.

9) Type of diet:- Some people prefer doing a raw diet with only small amounts of raw animal foods and lots of raw plant-foods(eg:- Instincto), while others prefer a raw  diet with lots of raw animal-foods and some raw plant-foods(the majority), and still others prefer raw zero-carb where no one eats any  raw plant-food.

10) Enzymes and bacteria:- Many people, if they continue to eat a little cooked-food find it beneficial to supplement with enzymes before such a cooked dinner, so as to make up for the deficiency of enzymes in such cooked-meals. Others like to take probiotics like EM products("Effective Microorganisms"
 or bacteria-rich  "high-meat" before such a meal, in order to reduce any detox-effects from eating any cooked-food. People whose digestive systems have been heavily wrecked after years of being on cooked-diets might find it beneficial  to add in enzyme-supplements or EM-probiotics in order to speed up the repair of their digestive systems. "High-Meat" is a fermented  food frequently consumed by the Inuit in their traditional diets  and is quite often used by Raw-Animal-Foodists nowadays, though it is generally recommended for people to only try "High-Meat" once they've gotten used to fresh, raw animal foods in general, purely for reasons of taste. A"High-Meat" Recipe-Preparation Section is included in the Recipes forum:-

*Re chewing:- AV says that the ptyalin in your saliva retards the action of protein digesting enzymes so you should expose the least amount of surface area of your food to saliva in your mouth for optimum digestion, which translates to minimal chewing.In other words, unlike with cooked-foods which need to be chewed due to a lack of enzymes in them, raw foods can and should be bolted down with minimal chewing. * I mention this as some newbies claim that some raw meats can be too tough to chew.*

*It should also be noted that some RVAF diet newbies, such as myself when I first started, can be highly sensitive to any kind of processing of raw foods, even raw ground meats. I mention this as most rawpalaeo newbies start off with raw ground meats as they are more used to the idea of eating them(perhaps from eating steak tartare in former cooked-diet days). So those are best advised to stick to non ground meats instead.

Detox:- It's quite common to experience a detox for a certain period if you switch suddenly cold-turkey to raw. This is due to the body finally being able to get rid of toxins from years of being on a toxic cooked-food diet.

*It should be noted that genuine detoxes tend to be relatively mild and short-term in duration(and they should get gradually reduced in terms of frequency, duration and severity until you don't have them any more). At least, in my own case, I would have a mild detox(warm forehead, fatigue and slightly runny nose) lasting from 2 to 7 days, every 2 to 4 months, and these detoxes stopped completely after a couple of years on the diet. (I still experience detox after the very occasional cooked-meal but this is simply the body's efforts to get rid of the toxins from that meal, not anything else).

*It should be noted that if a detox goes on and on ,increasing in severity, and coincides with the consumption of a particular food, then you can be sure that this is due to a food-intolerance or whatever, rather than a genuine detox. In my own case, I consumed raw dairy in the first few months of going raw and I became very ill - it took 6 months before I realised that I wasn't experiencing detox but merely a food-intolerance towards raw dairy.*

Important info:- It's a really good idea to gradually read through all the sticky topics at the top of the general discussions forum as well as the entire archives of the rawpaleodiet Yahoo Group as well, as that should provide answers to many of the questions you haven't even thought of yet(to read the links etc., you'll have to join the rawpaleodiet group):-

Also useful, is this Q&A archive from

French-language speakers may be interested in this site as well:-

*While many  RAFers go all-raw, there are always people who can't, for various lifestyle reasons/work/family etc., leave off unhealthy foods entirely 100% of the time. Here are some suggestions as to how to compromise:-

1) If you're a smoker, get rid of the pipes, cigars and cigarettes, and replace them with snuff(raw tobacco powder).Sniffing snuff means that you still get a nicotine rush, but you don't get the usual smoking problems re smoke-ash in the lungs etc.

2) If you can't bear cutting  out alcohol, then only go in for transparent, non-coloured spirits or real ale. The main things in coloured alcohol that cause hangovers  are the congeners, artificial chemicals which are most present in such alcohols. So that means vodka, clear gin, white rum, non-flavoured grappa and the like. Real Ale is the best option as it's raw, unheated, and is full of live, fermenting bacteria. Real Ale is called "cask-conditioned-ale" or "cask-brewed ale" in the USA. Fewer pubs than ever serve genuine real ale - so it's best to look in on upmarket supermarkets and look for the phrase "bottle-conditioned" or "secondary fermentation" on the labels of beer-bottles - if the beer-bottle is one of the very unusual bottles with a thin metal wire circling round the bottle a few inches from the cap/cork, then it's always genuine real ale.

3) When eating a cooked-food meal with non-RAF-eating friends, it's a good idea to take some enzyme supplements and some "high-meat"  before going out to the meal. That way, you'll experience fewer issues re poor digestion of the cooked-foods, and the hangover-effect that happens when one consumes junk-food and the body then detoxes it out of one's system.

(Oh, and here's a quick resume, off the top of my head re what I, personally, eat - obviously everyone will have widely different sources, depending on their locality:-

(just a quick review, foods listed are eaten raw,  organic/grassfed/wildcaught or free-range/grassfed etc.):-

wild hare carcasses-plus organs/ leg of lamb/mutton plus lamb organs, venison organs, goose-/quail-/duck-/chicken-eggs, sea-urchin-eggs, swordfish, giant tiger prawns, lobster, crab,mussels, kingfish, shark, beef organs, free-range turkey breast-fillets(whole goose and whole turkey at Christmas), wild boar muscle-meats/organs, horse-muscle-meat, heather honeycomb, samphire, blueberries, cherries, raspberries, bananas, wild mallard duck and organs, limpets, goat muscle-meat.

Organs would usually include tongue, liver, kidney, heart, plus, in some of the above cases, brains(rarely), suet and marrow. Some items are only eaten by me  rarely or seasonally(eg:- eggs or sea-urchin-eggs))

*Addendum*:-   It's generally a bad idea to mix cooked and raw foods together. The 2 require different digestive processes(cooked-food requires the stomach to produce much more stomach-acid etc.), so, if one is suffering from digestive problems, it's really best to stick to raw foods. If one is forced to eat partially-raw for social reasons, then the best thing to do is separate the consumption of cooked-food and the consumption of raw foods into separate meals, leaving several hours inbetween.

*Further addendum*:- While the following article has nothing to do with diet, it may be of interest to some as it involves palaeo-style practices:-

And this palaeo habit may also be of interest:-

*1 other thing:- Raw Vegans often have problems adjusting to raw animal foods because their whole digestive system has been so attuned to eating raw plants(requiring different enzymes and bacteria), that they at first have problems digesting raw animal foods. So, if you're an ex-raw vegan, take things slowly and up the amounts of raw meat a little at a time.

Here's a Youtube video of Bear Grylls, the survivialist, eating raw meat as usual(raw zebra in this case):-


General Discussion / Re: Protein and fat digestion
« on: May 07, 2008, 08:59:19 pm »
Well, there've been claims by some zero-carbers that salt is needed. I am sceptical of this as plenty of natural salts are found in meats and blood. Plus, I've had slight negative reactions to salt-intake when I've used it too frequently. I now only use a touch of (sea-)salt on very rare occasions to spice up some meats but that's all.

Re your quotation about saturated fats:- Out of interest, which guru did you get this quotation from? Was it a vegan one? I'm just curious.

So do I. But what about eating only several hours after a workout ?

Well, if I'm suddenly doing a large amount of exercise(eg:- skiing), I find that my appetite is down for the whole of the rest of the day and can eat only small amounts. Of course, if I'm consistently doing large amounts of exercise every day, then I get my appetite back, and eat some hours afterwards.

Well, if

I agree, I also generally feel better if I exercise on an empty stomach.

Health / Testimonial
« on: May 07, 2008, 05:53:43 am »
Well, here's my testimonial for a raw, palaeolithic diet:-

My Raw Paleo Diet Testimonial

Exercise / Bodybuilding / Different Types of Exercise
« on: May 07, 2008, 05:37:37 am »
Out of curiosity, what kinds of exercise are people here doing? My own preference is for outdoor sports like skiing, swimming, mountain-hiking. I do also use the gym for weight-lifting and a little swimming(but far prefer the unchlorinated outdoor pool in my neighbourhood).  Oh, and in the past I did Judo.

I tend to do low-intensity exercise over long periods - for example, I make sure to use heavy rucksacks when I hike in the mountains.  I've read that the healthiest exercise is doing short, intensive bursts of exercise, but it's not my thing.

General Discussion / Re: Share your cost saving tips regarding FOOD
« on: May 06, 2008, 09:51:10 pm »
There are several different ways to cut costs:-

1)  If one  has any raw-foodists nearby, one can bulk-buy foods like meats sharing the costs between people, thus cutting down on delivery-costs.

2) Practice Intermittent Fasting. When eating raw, one doesn't necessarily need to eat as  much as on a cooked-diet, so eating only one meal a day or doing alternate-day fasting  makes a difference.

3)  Buy only from small farms as they won't charge extra retail-costs like butcher's  etc.  do. Often the "organic" labele doesn't   necessarily mean much. I've  encountered small-time farmers who weren't  necessarily "organic" by category   but who didn't feed their animals with hormones/antibiotics etc.(because they couldn't afford them), and fed their animalson 100% pastured diets,and the meats/eggs etc. of some of those farmers was actually much better in quality(and cheapness of price)than the big organic-status agricombines - the latter often try to loosen the organic-category regulations out of a desire for profit,and get away with all sorts of other dubious practices.

4)   Eat low-carb - I would spend far more on rawfood if I included too much plant-food in the diet.Raw plant-food seems to increase the appetite.

Journals / Links to Raw-Animal-Food-related Journals/Blogs
« on: May 06, 2008, 02:48:36 am »
Here are the links to some of the online Raw-Animal-Food Diet blogs:-

(the above link is more Palaeo-oriented, despite the  Primal-diet reference). 

(the above is definitely a strict Primal-Diet blog).

the above is a blog by a former Wai-dieter-turned-Rawpalaeo-eater)

Here's another blog by a Raw-Animal-foodist who's into bodybuilding:-

Here's another RawPaleo blog:-

Here's a Primal Diet MySpace entry:-

Here's another  rawpalaeo page with info and links:-

And a Primal-Diet-based blog:-

Here's a Facebook RVAF diet group:-

Here's a blog on a raw, zero carb diet:-

A Toronto- raw-oriented website:-

Our French-language sister forum is here:-

Primal Diet Chat Group:-

Primal Diet Blog:-

Description of recovery from retinal issues:-

A youtube video of a rawplaeodieter debunking Durianrider's raw vegan rants:-

! No longer available

A rawpalaeoish blog:-

Raw, anti-plant food website:-  Swedish RPDer.

Blog of RVAFer who recovered from OCD:-

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