ok your in or near seacaucus?

I'm in North Arlington. Do you live in the area?

Could be diabetes, certainly. But thirst may also indicate dehydration, which has a tendency to impact those on a sustained ZC diet. The kidneys become highly effective at excreting salts from the body while in very deep ketosis. For some folks, this is not a problem; they simply heighten their sodium intake to compensate for the problems, or add in magnesium supplements to mitigate the mineral losses. I, for one, was never interested in adopting a diet that demanded supplements in order to function effectively. My understanding is that a diet which requires supplementation (be this in the form of iodine pills, Amazonian minerals, magic joojoo pills, etc.) is a rather problematic diet to begin with.

It is proven that adding in some carbohydrates to ones diet does indeed make it easier for one to hold onto sodium (making the need for extra sodium less important than one who isn't in ketosis). In my opinion, if one was able to get their hands on blood and fresh meat these extra requirements of minerals wouldn't be of much importance. One of the keys to my success in eating a Carnivorous diet may very well be the fact that my meat does come with considerable amounts of blood. I also make sure to  supplement 3/4 of a teaspoon of sea salt a long with my meal, a long with a few milligrams of Iodine per day. If I was eating raw thyroid a few times a week , I wouldn't think Iodine supplementation would be necessary.

I've mentioned in previous posts about carbohydrates increasing production of thyroid hormones; which in some cases could be the reason why some people feel better adding in carbohydrates. Possibly adding in extra iodine would replace the need for extra carbohydrates to boost this process as my body will be creating thyroid hormone through what I would consider a more 'natural' process rather than getting the boost of hormones from added carbohydrates in the diet.

On numerous occasions, my heart problems on a ZC diet were attributed to "dehydration." In response to those statements, I thought: complete BS, considering that I was consuming a large amount of water throughout my waking hours. However, one should realize that larger amounts of water don't precisely add up to adequate hydration. In fact, drinking multiple liters a day when the body is in a deep ketogenic state may exacerbate the loss of electrolytes by accelerating excretory processes.

Thyroid hormone is associated with many different metabolic functions. Perhaps it's relation with electrolyte balance could be another reason why I do not seem to suffer with such problems. However, if I do consume too much protein I will notice palpitations if I do not consume enough water. This may be attributed to the toxic effects of too much protein and also the bodies response to eliminating such toxins.

You are foolishly misconstruing my arguments. I am not claiming that short-term stressors are unnecessary for human health; I am writing against the long-term stressors emerging from a chronic ZC diet and its inefficient metabolic pathways. The reason why cortisol sends up a red flag in relation to gluconeogenesis is because while in a deep ketogenic diet, a subject is constantly engaged in gluconeogenesis, and therefore exhibits elevated cortisol levels (Swain et al. 2012). Dichotomizing stress as good/bad is a ridiculous proposition. Stress is neither good nor bad; stress is a physical signifier that directs our attention toward bodily processes that may indicate the absence or presence of particular adaptive mechanisms. I have opted to question which adaptive mechanisms are optimal for both longevity and maximum health.

The only time cortisol is involved during the process of gluconeogenesis is when blood sugar levels go down low enough to induce a hypoglycemic state. Cortisol is called in to act upon in such an emergency to help restore blood sugar levels to a normal level. When adequate protein is consumed on a ketogenic diet, hypoglycemia hasn't been known to be a problem.

(http://www.ketotic.org/2012/07/ketogenic-diets-and-stress-part-i.html)

24sours you should try getting morning and evening sun instead or in addition to midday sun, they are much more gentle on the skin and at those times there is a different penetration of wave lengths from the sun that is more beneficial to the skin, not as harsh and better for promoting vit d production.

I will try and get more morning / evening sun and see how that goes. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to look more into the different waves produced at different times too, sounds interesting.

6 minutes a day and suffering otherwise does not seem to be a happy or healthy tolerance.

Absolutely.. I seem to be extra sensitive. Still trying to figure this out.

I personally think you are taking way too much Vitamin D. When I was taking anymore than 1,200-1,500 IU per day , over time I started developing anxiety. There has been much debate on the upper tolerable intake of Vitamin D through supplements and food sources. What works for me is getting a few minutes of sun when I can with minimal clothing. If you can't lay out in the sun then I don't think you need much more than 1,000 IU per day through food sources/supplements, especially if you are getting enough Vitamin A (as Vitamin D is proven to be ineffective without enough of it). However, I do not recommend taking a supplement unless you have no other choice.

The very fact that gluconeogenesis is associated to cortisol levels should send up some red flags: gluconeogenesis is tough work, and our bodies will avoid activating the metabolic pathway unless absolutely forced to do so

To those of you who think Gluconeogenesis requires high cortisol levels, read this:

http://www.ketotic.org/2012/07/ketogenic-diets-and-stress-part-i.html

How is your salt intake?
Do you get enough Vitamin D?
If you workout a lot you may need more water.
Are you eating enough?
Do you eat thyroid? If not, do you have a dietary source of iodine?

Another source of glucose is Edogenous Glucose Production during fat metabolisation.
Fats are created with a glycerol backbone, and when fats are metabolised the glycerol molecules are released. Two glycerol molecules are easily combined to make a glucose molecule, which is way easier and cleaner than converting protein to glucose.
Typically about 12% of the calories from fat are provided as glucose, so if someone on 'ZC' was burning 2000 cal of fat they would get around 240 calories of this as glucose. I imagine one great thing about this source of glucose is that it will be released only slowly as the fat is used, compared to carb consumption where there is more of an uncontrolled explosion of glucose into the bloodstream.

Regarding a ketogenic diet, we can see already that a significant amount energy can be supplied to the brain by glucose from fat metabolisation. My understanding is that so long as protein consumption is moderated then ketones will be produced from fat to provide for the glucose deficit. Now it seems obvious that if a 'ZCer' can be getting hundreds of glucose calories from fat there will be little impact on their level of ketosis of adding a few tens of calories of carbs.

So while a 'ZC' diet is ketogenic, it does not follow that a ketogenic diet must be zero carb. There is a spectrum of ketosis depth which can be traded off against any benefits from some carb consumption. 

Also if the generation of ketones for improved cognitive function is the goal then consuming short and medium chain fats are most beneficial. These can be found in coconut oil and are produced by gut bacteria when resistant starches are consumed.

So there we go - we have fats that make glucose and starches that make fat (via gut microbes).

 

I've come to the same conclusion based on my research as well;
The body will convert fatty acids to glucose long before it converts protein into glucose as gluconeogenesis is indeed taxing on ones system. What I would like to eventually find out is how taxing the fatty acid conversion cycle would be. I would say it'd be considerably less harmful (if at all) to ones body than blood sugar spikes from excess glucose.

I would have to agree that true RZC, (if such a diet were even possible as I've seen mentioned on this forum that even muscle meat contains some glycogen) being quite dangerous to health as it wouldn't contain much needed vitamins and minerals from organ meat.

Based on the health benefits I've seen from eating a raw Carnivorous ketogenic diet, I would have to disagree with such a diet being less than optimal for human health.

While eating RZC I've noticed it is much easier to over eat muscle meat when one doesn't eat enough fat a long with it. If one over eats protein without enough fat or carbs for long periods of time 'rabbit starvation' has been known to develop. I've witnessed this first hand a few times.

Eating a diet lower in fat and higher in protein and sugar (which seems to be what Instincto is based on - correct me if I am wrong) seems to keep the body continuously hungry due to the insulin spikes, insignificant healthy fats to keep one satiated, as well as the blunting effects fructose has on our bodies' ability to let us know we are full. There are plenty of studies that show fructose can continue to make us hungry if eaten in significant amounts (of course these amounts are different for each of us).

So, keeping the body running off of glucose ( a diet high in protein, sugar, or both) to me would be a huge factor in contributing to the development of tumors , diabetes and cancer. The research is there if you look for it.

That sort of thing did not work for me at all.

Tyler, I'm curious as to how you were measuring your fat and protein intakes when you were ZC. I think you may not have been eating enough fat. You said you've tried the 80% (Calories from Fat) / 20% (Calories from Protein)..

From time to time I've noticed when adding my own raw fat into my diet, I'd measure out say 100g of pure fat. I would count that as an extra 100g of fat to my total intake when really pure fat is only 60-80% fat, the rest being water and connective tissue as Lex mentioned. I've always ran into problems when not taking this into consideration.

This thread is very interesting. Thanks all for the comments. I'd like to emphasize a point that I think has not been given as much importance as it should have: physical activity. I strongly believe that when this parameter is missing in ones life, one cannot actually be instincto. As simple as that. The instinct won't work, at least perfectly, when one does not use his or her body as it should be used. Don't use it = Lose it. A truth that we should all be accepting. Add to this the fact that lots of people spend so many hours sitting down in front of a screen all day, and you have the best recipe for a total health collapse. As a conclusion, if you want to be sure you are picking and eating the right food, and then that you are feeling the stop for it, make sure you have created an energy need before your meals.

Great point. The craving for something sweet can be diminished by exercising due to the similar chemicals released in the body after consumption of carbohydrates and a good workout.

As this shows, whether one considers three to six milligrams of iodine per day to be a megadose or not (the term was used here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879 - but if that's not acceptable, is "high dose" an acceptable term to use?), it's way more than what is ingested by most people. So the question becomes, why do some people believe they need such unusually high intakes to maintain such things as normal FBG that others do not need high intakes of iodine for?

Yes, it is way more ingested by most people but has been proven to be one the most deficient minerals in ones' diet.
I've already provided a link of research that shows low carb diets slowing down the production of T3 (thyroid hormone) - which has a large influence on glucose metabolism. Let me break down my hypothesis:

• Carbohydrates Stimulate Thyroid Hormone (including RS as it is a carb)
  
• Low Carbohydrate Diets slow production of T3 (Thyroid Hormone)
  
  • Thyroid Hormone is a huge player in blood glucose regulation
    
  • Iodine Deficiency is extremely common
    
    • Iodine Sufficiency leads to normalization of thyroid hormone production
      
    • TSH Levels can come back 'normal' on those deficient in Iodine in their blood work
  
  
  Quote

  Iodine didn't help with my FBG or post-meal BG, nor with Lex's (I think Lex reported it as averaging over 100 mg/dl, IIRC), AFAIK, whereas RS quickly and easily started working for me. Hasn't Lex been using iodine for some time now? It would be good to get an update on that from him.

  
  Did you or Lex take it in high enough doses long enough to reach sufficiency? Tests results would most likely not improve considerably until sufficiency levels are reached. Doses of 50mg for 3 months can be used to reach sufficiency.
  ------
  
  Of course this is all a hypothesis and I haven't gotten blood work since becoming Iodine sufficient and starting my RZC diet but I think one is in order.
  
  
  

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One thing that rarely gets discussed by either extreme of the macronutrient wars is that there are ways to stay ketogenic while at the same time feeding the gut bacteria. I've been exploring my notes on that a bit in the last few days. It's not necessary to starve the gut bacteria to stay ketogenic, so I don't see the point of starving them.

Absolutely and that would be the middle ground you talk about. A middle ground to me if I were to add some carbs back into my diet would probably include no more than 20-30 grams of carbohydrate. My fat and protein macro would stay the same. Usually anywhere between 20-60 grams of carbohydrates will throw someone out of ketosis.

Thanks, I'm not so much interested in persuading folks like you who seem to be doing well (who knows, maybe you are doing a type of ketogenic diet that works and doesn't starve the gut bugs) as I am in sharing some concerning info with the folks who are noticing problems (like one or more of high and rising FBG and post-prandial BG, basal temp. below 97.8, poor carb tolerance, cold extremities, etc.) and only seeing people tell them to keep doing more of the same, or "just eat more fat," or take megadoses of Mg or iodine, or such.

I suspect that eating raw and eating plenty of organs helps avoid the problems of VLC/ZC, but I don't have strong evidence re: that. It's more of a hunch. It doesn't seem to be entirely protective, however, because even Lex Rooker, a longtimer raw VLCer, and one of the more successful ones, reported high FBG and somewhat high A1C, IIRC.

There is no need to persuade me as I am open minded, believe it or not... haha. Those symptoms to me really do sound like thyroid imbalances and research shows most people are deficient in Iodine. I'm sure these people would benefit from eating seaweed or taking some extra Iodine. Btw, I am not recommending megadoses, three to six milligrams for someone on a RPD should be plenty. Even Lex's high FBG can be improved by including some in his diet. I know he did start supplementing for a while ( I believe in megadoses which I find completely unnecessary for someone on a RPD) but I think that was after he had his A1C/FBG checked. I suggest you look into all the positive results Dr. Brownstein and Dr. Abraham had with Iodine supplementation. Results have gone as far as reversing diabetes in some patients.

And these extinctions occurred much farther back than 10,000 years, and once they were extinct they were no longer available to be eaten and other foods had to be consumed.

I'm sure other animals went extinct because of our hunting. An example would be the American Bison that became nearly extinct and there were probably countless others before. Human biology in a way proves this if you think about how much more adapted we've become through the years to use meats and fats as energy and how we utilize nutrients in meats and fats significantly better than those in plant foods. Ever take a look at the Carotene to Retinol conversion rate? In some people the conversion rate is about 29:1.

Wouldn't the example of Eskimo wild berry eating suggest eating similar foods today (such as cranberries, wild Maine blueberries, or wild black raspberries, for example, which are all available to me), rather than avoiding all berries? How does one get the notion to eat zero carbs from a population that ate some carbs?

It was an experiment that wound up working. I do like berries and I may even eat some on occasion when summer comes but I don't find them necessary really. Either way I'd be sure to stay in ketosis as it is very beneficial in multiple ways (one being muscle building).

If there's little difference, then why not eat those small amounts of carbs? Why bother restricting the diet more severely than even the Eskimos traditionally did just to attain zero carbs without significant additional benefit? Don't you like some carby foods? If a little bit doesn't do harm and you find them tasty, why not eat the amount you say makes "little difference"?

Overall health doesn't involve just the health of the external shell of the human body -  it also involves internal elements, such as the gut microbiome. Have any of the people who are assuming that they're doing great on VLC/ZC gotten their gut microbiome checked, or their IGM or IGG antibody levels? According to this physician, there may be problems that you're not even aware of:

Great point and I will look more into this, thanks. Like I said, I just don't find it necessary as this time.