In light of my recent ordeal with food poisoning which I'm almost positive was caused by inorganic chicken liver, I thought I'd open some discussion on your experiences and opinions regarding liver.  Here's what I have so far: 

Pros:
-TONS of A and B vitamins, which is great for energy and muscle building
-High in some of those trace minerals like zinc and copper
-Perhaps one of the most nutrient dense animal foods out there.  Definitely on the top 5 list. 

Cons:
-Filter of the animal, so toxins tend to accumulate there in greater quantities than elsewhere
-So even if organic, there's still some chance of eating some toxic liver (though much reduced if organic)
-(personal) I'm having trouble finding fresh organic liver the last month

So I bought some chicken liver which wasn't organic, and I got food poisoning from it.  Frustrating.  But I'm all better now and I'm still not deterred from liver, but I'm going to make sure to buy only organic from now on.  Except maybe not.  I came across some calf liver today, and though not organic, the calf was slaughtered before ever being weened from milk, and neither it nor the mother were given antibiotics or growth hormone.  So though the diet of the mother cow may not be ideal grass fed, I would think the milk it produces would be filtered from most toxins anyways.  In addition, I think cows are raised in more sanitary conditions that chickens (not sure though, feel free to educate me), and at least cows aren't fed soy like chickens - which can only be fed to chickens if first cooked (again, feel free to educate me if I am incorrect).  Keep in mind, this is all coming from Whole Foods.

One last question, when liver starts to smell strongly after a few days in the fridge, is it still good to eat?  Is it a personal preferrence thing, or is it not a great idea to eat liver that is starting to expire?

Thoughts?   

This would be a total shot in the dark, and honestly doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but couldn't hurt either:  Try eating some bee pollen and a little raw honey every day.  Yeah I know that it seems it should only help with pollen based allergies, but the stuff is pretty amazing, and you never know that maybe it could work. 

Haha, one time I decided I would eat 4-8 ounces of the stuff every day and maybe do that for a week or so.  Yeah, don't do that...  I didn't get past the first 4 ounces.  But a small spoonful a day won't hurt. 

Probably depends alot on your location.  For example, east Texas has alot of streams, and finding water is not all that difficult.  Of course that would change if you were in west Texas.  So if you lived in a location with easy to find and many sources of water, you might drink oftern.  If not, you'd probably have to take what you can get when you can get it.

But I'm with Lex on this one.  The body has a wonderful mechanism to let you know when it's time to drink, it's called thirst.  Also, think about it - yes water will temporarily dilute stomach acid, but, and this is a guess here, won't it just quickly transpire out of your stomach into the blood stream and surrounding organs?  (Just like alcohol passes straight to the blood too)?  So it might delay digestion for a couple minutes, but unless you're chugging inordinate amounts of water, shouldn't be much of a problem.  But I don't understand the bio-chem there, so it's mostly a guess. 

I think you misunderstand the basics of what I was getting at.  To start, again, I eat very few carbs.  I eat 2-3 lbs of meat every day including beef, liver, oysters, chicken, eggs, and fish.  I also eat a mix of berries, coconut water, papaya, tomato, and peppers, depending on taste, but rarely more than 100g carbs in a day - thats like 3 ounces.  It seems that a high fat/protein diet with SOME carbs is ideal; but the idea that humans are not well evolved to eat ANY carbs seems somewhat bunk, once you consider what is available in the wild.  I will reiterate later, but first I would like to address some of your comments: 

I've actually attempted to survive in the wild eating just wild plant based foods.  I assure you that without intensive agriculture there isn't much available and what is available is tough, bitter, sour, and fruits are very small and mostly seed.  Those big juicy apples, plums, peaches, grapes, and pears you see in your local supermarket just don't exist in the wild.  Wild berries and grapes are about the size of a small pea and mostly seed.  Wild plums are about the size of a shelled almond and the flesh is about 1 mm (1/32") thick and covered with a very tough skin.  It would take many dozens of them to equal one small plum from the supermarket - hardly an energy boosting snack.

I hate to disappoint you but the Garden of Eden - chock full of luscious fruits just for the picking - doesn't exist in most of nature

I never mentioned anything resembling a 'garden of eden' as you describe - more like you're putting words in my mouth.  The situtation you described would seem to support the idea that we would have gotten most of our food from animal sources, but there are fruits to supplement in limited quantities depending on climate and season.  By your own admission you survived for at least a time in the wild solely from plant based material.  My parents have a wild grape vine and, though sour, with larger seeds and slightly smaller than store bought grapes, 10-15 minutes of snacking could be very rejeuvinating and rehydrating - and we totally neglect this grape vine.

Are you claiming that humans that happened upon tomatoes, melons, grapes, avocado, papaya, strawberries, oranges, etc, never ate them?
Are you claiming that humans never ate fruit in our evolutionary history? 

I hate to disappoint you but the Garden of Eden - chock full of luscious fruits just for the picking - doesn't exist in most of nature.  If you don't believe me, trade in your designer jeans for a sharp stick and a few rocks like I did, and head out to the wilderness to see for yourself.  It's quite an education.

Okay now your just attacking me for my cool jeans and portraying me as poorly educated.  I'm not here to attack anyone, just to discuss information that we each have to share; and use that to try and surmise the most likely realities in our evolutionary past.

So on that note, insects.  They often contain a significant amount of carbs, and I think even cats eat insects.  Or are you claiming that we never ate these either in our evolutionary history?  Also there is glycogen to consider.  Carbs found in muscle meats, liver, and brains to some extent.  How are these carbs even avoidable?

So to sum up: 
Fruit can offer our a distinct energy and hydration advantage depending on the situation.
Carbs are inescapable when consuming heavy meat, liver, or brains; and widely available in easy to catch insects.
So, when trading in one's pair of cool pants for the wild life, carbs would mostly likely be a part of reality, even if only in small quantities.
Thus, our bodies have evolved to process and benefit from carbs in at least moderate amounts.
This does not mean that you cannot thrive without them either - but I know that I don't. 


 

Haven't really noticed any problems drinking a little water after a meal, but I make sure not to drink too much.  After a meal of heavy meat, I usually am a little thirsty.  If I eat cooked food, I will be so thirsty during and after the meal, but so long as I stick to the diet, I don't really drink that much water despite living in 5-10% humidity most of the time.  I drink about 1 fresh young coconut a day and if I exercise, 1 liter of naturally carbonated mineral water (Gerolsteiner) with lemon/lime during the workout.   

I find airports to be the most impossible place to find decent food.  Fruit is about it, but 6-8hrs of travel leaves me wanting for a bit more.  So one time I picked up some ground beef on the way to the airport, got through security fine.  I didn't want to draw attention so I got a large cup and put it in there, and ate in quick bites when no one was looking.  I've also brought eggs and ate them quickly in the restroom.  I guess a few guys saw, but whatever. 

If I'm having a discussion about diet, I usually try and stress the problems with grains, preservatives, and processed food.  I'll start talking raw when the person seems open minded.  And then I'll usually mention sushi, oysters, eggs, rare steak and tartar to point out that it's really not as crazy as it sounds at first.  But no matter what, I always point out that the biggest culprits are grains, preservatives, and processed food; and make mention of genetics and paleo-diet.  I figure maybe they'll go look it up and move just a step closer to paleo.   

Haha, then sometimes before I've ever mentioned any of this, and it's obvious the person is close minded, I'll recommend something 'crazy' like raw chicken as an antidote to their ailments, but never tell them about my diet. 

I was in Walgreens the other day getting water for my car, got in line, and this lady in front of me looked terrible: overweight, sagging face, confused eyes.  Under her right arm was a 12 pack of soda, and in her left was a basket full of sweet tarts, milk duds, and every type of candy-bar known to man.  So she grabs a packet of cold medicine as a last item before checking out.  I can't contain myself at this point; "Not feeling so good?"  She replies, "I've heard this is great stuff for a cold," I simply said, "Oranges and honey."  She informed me that did not work for her, and I left it at that.  A few minutes later I passed her in the parking lot and said, "If you put life in the body, you will get life back from the body."  She said "yeah I know."  ... she had no idea.   

 

Might be a dumb question, but are you supposed to eat the brown creamy stuff inside of Pacific oysters?  I don't think I've ever seen it in Atlantic or Gulf of Mexico oysters.  The jar (no preservatives, just oysters and water) said something about edible portion in the serving size info, but not much else.  I just ate 1/2 a pound, whole w/o cleaning out that stuff.  Hopefully it's not gonna kill me. 

Has anyone noticed a change in eye color/clarity/brightness as the months go by?  My eyes have slowly turned from a dark brown all my life to now a fairly light brown, almost amber.  I have read this is not uncommon, some people reporting to have changed from green to blue, or even from amber to blue.

Just curious on you guys' take on shrooms.  I think Aajonus says it's a fruit; I know at least that it's the fruiting stage of the organism's life cycle.  I eat portabellas pretty regularly.  Anyone have problems?  Notice particular benefits?  Or even just changes? 

I once purposely spoiled raw chicken to see if it would make me sick.  I was still a little fearful that one day I would come down w/ salmonella, even though I had eaten spoiled raw ground beef and never been sick - I actually like the taste of not so fresh beef) - basically I wanted to prove to myself that salmonella is not a source of disease. 

Made my gf smell b4 eating (just to make sure it was spoiled).  She gagged for the entire time I ate it, swearing up and down I'd be sick as a dog, but I never did get sick.  Felt just fine.  In fact, tho it smelled not so great, I enjoyed the taste much better than normal chicken.  After that day I've been pretty much fear free about this diet, though I tend to eat most everything fresh.     

I would also check out a guy called Pete Egoscue, particularly his book "The Egoscue Method of Health Through Motion."  Alot of the same principles it seems as the Dorn-Method, but no need for a helper to work through the exercises.  He has another book called "Pain Free," which seems to be more of a site specific type of pain alleviation, but I much prefer the first book (shorter in length too), as it seems to offer a regimen of stretches and exercises that bring the whole body in to proper alignment over the course of a few weeks to months. 

My dad used it to kick huge knee braces that he wore for decades when playing sports, I used it to recover from a 25 ft fall where I broke my foot in numerous places and pretty much "jostled" my whole body out of alignment.  I also showed it to my girlfriend to CURE her headaches and back tension.  If you try it, I have no doubt it will do wonders.

Name's Jason, I live in Las Vegas, the driest damn place on the planet.  Just found this forum; glad to have found some people who are of similar mind/determination to have true understanding of the body, and to bounce ideas around.  I've been doing raw food for almost a year now, it's been an enlightening journey.  I owe alot to Aajonus and the ideas in his book, We Want to Live.  If you are new to Raw Paleo, I highly recommend you go read it, today.  I waited a month or so and it cost me fumbling around on alot of stuff I could have avoided.

I've experimented with alot of different types and combo's of raw food, from mostly vegetarian to almost zero carbs.  Here's where I'm at now:  breakfast - berries, honey, 4-7 eggs  :  lunch - 3/4 to 1 pound beef with tomato/peppers/bell peppers  (maybe only 50-100 calories carbs)  :  dinner - same as lunch, usually a full pound  : snacks in between include eggs, berries, papaya, particularly before workout in early evening (tho I haven't mixed papaya and eggs yet).  I also drink raw goats milk as a midnight snack for recovery and better sleep.  Sometimes I'll eat some chicken or rarely fish when I have a taste for them - I generally try to be mindful of the instinctive self.  I also noticed a need for alot of juicy fruit at first, and then slowly seemed to move towards a taste for more meat, less sweet ripe fruit.

I pretty much went cold turkey into this and noticed some immediate benefits (1-8 weeks):
Sleep better at night / have more energy during the day
Face cleared up immediately; have very few if any pimples
Not nearly as thirsty - if only I didn't live in the desert, would probably drink hardly any water at all
Lips hardly ever chapped anymore - I used to need chap stick constantly
Much more resilient to cold (and subsequently heat, as I started this diet 1 Jan 2008)

Of course my 25 yr old self in a city like Las Vegas did lend itself to boozing it up (and of course the drunken munchies afterwards - pizza, burritos, burgers/fries) on a week-endly basis, which held me back for quite awhile.  It was a process of detox from the weekend, feel good again wed/thur/fri, and then start all over.  I know stupid right?  Nonetheless, I still accomplished some detox and health benefits, learned alot from experimentation of food combinations, what works/doesn't work, and finally brought the drinking to almost none (only a couple times in the last few months).  And it's been the last few months that some very profound changes have taken place:    

LONGER TERM BENEFITS (6-11 months)
Tons of energy in the gym - can regularly keep going for 2 hours
Eyes have lightened in color and brightened in clarity
Breath is much better - never brush teeth anymore
Singing voice suddenly got better
I can go for much longer periods w/o eating but still keep energized
Body seems very resilient to injury/sickness/change in environment
Senses feel sharper, more alert
Emotions more balanced; calmer but energized
Mind is calmer and more focused; more perceptive and sharp/quick; more creative

Some of these seemed to happen almost overnight, some of them came on more subtly, but no doubt apparent.  It's been kind of a journey of peaks and valleys.  I've definitely had my share of detox symptoms, though nothing that has been too extreme or too long lived.  I'd say to most new guys, you will probably go through periods of feeling great mixed with periods of not so great, usually marked by diarrhea sometimes lasting up to 2-3 weeks.  Stick it out, maybe experiment some, but believe me, it's worth it.

So I have been meaning to try something that I know will probably bring great increases in health - I'd like to start growing worms, crickets and other bugs for food.  I know we had to have eaten alot of these as hunter-gatherers in times of shortage, or even as just snacks throughout the day or on the hunt.  Anyone out there have any experience with this?  I'd like to hear what you have to say.  

Last thing I'll say is about alignment health.  If you have chronic bone or muscular pain (back pain, tendinitis, a 'hitch' in your knee or whatever), the best thing you could possibly to do is go buy a book called "The Egoscue Method of Health Through Motion," by Pete Egoscue.  Read it, follow it it to the letter.  My dad used his methods to kick gigantic knee braces he wore for decades; I used it to come back from a 25 foot fall off a balcony (which broke my foot in too many places to count and jacked my back for awhile), and showed it to my girlfriend to CURE her headache problems and back tension (I know right, cure your woman's headaches, who would have thought it possible?).  If you do it, and stick with it, it works, results are equally as dramatic as this diet.  

Well I guess that's it.  I could go on, but I'll save it for other posts.  Anyways, glad to have found a place to learn/share ideas, hope I can offer some good information to contribute.

-Jason