Author Topic: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment  (Read 50592 times)

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Offline actionhero

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6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« on: May 21, 2010, 04:05:04 am »
I've been thinking about this for a while now and I feel it's time to just do it and see what happens. While my vitality has increased dramatically and my health improved beyond what I ever expected I can't deny the science about the role insulin has on bodily deterioration. The reason that I'm not experiencing any problems from high fruit could be that I just haven't reached a critical mass of insulin resistance so no symptoms are developing. But in about 20 years from now I might have a different story to tell. I can't make a correct observation about reality if I've never experienced full adaption to fat burning and using it as my main source of fuel.

So for 6 months I'm going on a zero carb no matter what experiment. As of now fruit is out. Only raw lean meat, raw fatty meat and some organs. After 6 months if I am not 100% convinced that I am doing better without fruit I will introduce it back but not sooner. I'm mostly interested in how zero carb affects my energy levels, vitality, awareness and attitude. Also trying to discover if some next level of health exists. Very excited to see how this goes.



 
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2010, 06:41:52 am »
look forward to reading your experiences!

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2010, 08:04:19 am »
Quote
So for 6 months I'm going on a zero carb no matter what experiment.

I like your fighting spirit.

But when I did raw vegan, I only lasted 2 months.
I did fruitarian, I only lasted 2 months.
I did all cooked meat optimal diet and only lasted 1 month.

Proceed with caution.  Maybe keep in touch with fellow zero carbers to coach you on the fine details.

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Offline klowcarb

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2010, 10:22:24 am »
I wish you luck. I have been ZC since March 2009, and raw ZC since September 2009, so more than 6 months now.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 04:43:43 pm »
Well, judging from the past accounts, those who do well on raw, zero-carb are the ones who already knew they had some sort of food-intolerance towards most carbs by the time they started RZC. At least , all the long-termers are like that(Lex, paleophil etc. etc.)

The catch is the transitionary period which even successful RZCers find mildly inconvenient re symptoms, and there are many unsuccessful RZC-triers who have been unable to continue, with most of the latter not managing to get past c.3 weeks or so without experiencing difficulties - a few even get issues at a much earlier date.

The other catch(for those who have no issues with carbs at the start) is that as you spend very long periods on a very low RVLC diet or RZC diet, your body changes so that the enzymes/bacteria used to digest carbs are no longer used so that one develops an increasing inability to handle the digestion of any carbs. Once you return to eating a sizeable amount of raw carbs, your body will eventually  readapt and you'll be able to handle the digestion of carbs fully once relevant gut-bacteria etc. levels are restored.
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Offline ForTheHunt

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2010, 07:31:38 pm »
Fruit doesn't cause insulin problems, no matter how sugary they are. It's only processed carbs that give you insulin problems.

I think that this will only cause you problems.. I did RZC for 2 months and felt pretty shitty the whole time. Energy and strength was there, but mental clarity and happiness just vanished. I felt brainfog, super irritation and had problems thinking.

Now I've introduced fruit in sizeable quantities to my diet and my skin looks great, even better then rzc, my hair has stopped being greasy and is now very light, shiny and fluffy. And best of all my bowel movements are just super regular and I just feel like my self again, energetic and happy.

So if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

My tip if you're going to do this is don't overdo it with the fat. The whole "rabbit starvation" thing has been greatly exaggerated. Make sure you eat plenty of lean meats and not too much of the fat.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 07:38:23 pm by ForTheHunt »
Take everyones advice with a grain of salt. Try things out for your self and then make up your mind.

Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2010, 08:20:01 pm »
So if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

You definitely have a point there and I thought about this a lot. But I recently went through most of Lex's journal and Bear's wisdom who to my knowledge are the longest ZCers. Bear claims his body at 70 has the same vitality he had at 30 and while Lex says there is no magic in zero carb it did however stop all his serious symptoms and gave him his normal life back. My experience as of now tells me fruit does indeed not cause any noticeable damage. But if fruit doesn't cause insulin problems long term then why do a lot of people here have their past symptoms returning when they start eating fruit again? I think I'll just have to go through the zero carb experience myself to make an accurate observation. If I can adapt to fat burning then I should have no problems adapting back to mostly fruit+raw meat if it results in a less than positive experience. Anyways thanks for jumping in.

Well, judging from the past accounts, those who do well on raw, zero-carb are the ones who already knew they had some sort of food-intolerance towards most carbs by the time they started RZC.

That's why I think my experiment will be interesting because I do extremely well on fruit.

Proceed with caution.

Yeah lol, if I start rolling on the floor from pain it might indeed be a good idea to not continue the experiment.

Everything else is fair game.

I have been ZC since March 2009, and raw ZC since September 2009, so more than 6 months now.

Thanks, now I will feel super bad if I don't make it to 6 months.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 01:45:27 am by actionhero »
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Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 02:21:50 am »
Went looking for info on what diabetics experience when they go on a fruitarian diet. Here's a quote from Doug Graham who is the top guru of the movement.

Quote
On average, the Type 2 diabetics I work with reduce their insulin use by about 70% in 3 days. Many are totally off insulin before the first week is out.

ForTheHunt is right, the data on processed carbs doesn't apply to fruit because if it did the diabetics would certainly know.

Might still go on with the experiment just to see what happens.
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Offline Inger

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 03:10:26 am »
Hello actionhero,

I do ZC too, but my own version what includes wild edibles;)

I love it, have not had anything negative yet. I started at Christmas last year.
I tried to include some pieces of fruit some weeks ago, but I realized, I like it better without. So far.  :)

This is an experiment for me too, very intresting.
I will go on so long as I feel so good as I do now!  :)

Inger

Offline KD

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 04:09:53 am »
I think you might need to snoop around at other sources other than Doug Graham on this one in regards to insulin. Maybe some conventional paleo/primal gurus like Dr. Harris, and Mark Sisson would have the write ups on even natural sugars as well as allowable amounts of carbs to be within fat burning. At the same time, I'll have to agree with some of the others that no matter what the affects of insulin are on paper, if you are doing well, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to adopt something that for 95% of cases seems to be for people that absolutely cannot tolerate even small amounts of carbs, never mind as a large chunk within a meat/fat based diet. There might be plenty of convincing info that says we are 100% carnivorous and thrive best on such a diet (although I havn't seen any that are truly so) at the same time fruits and other plant sources should be able to be eaten without negative symptoms by a healthy carnivore, not to mention no other supplementation needed.

I believe the crucial thing for Graham, is still the fat %. I don't think he recommends diabetics to add massive amounts of fruit to their already processed or fat heavy diet. Either way, his information has no value in my opinion. Most of the natural hygiene stuff is 100% hypocrisy. they talk about treating causes over symptoms, but 9/10 these types of diets do exactly the opposite. I never had much candida 'symptoms' like fatigue on a high fruit diet for years, yet it was way worse after the diet then before. Those diets just feed fungus and other crap and deprives the body of various nutrients fats and proteins. so you just live on nitro and feel fine and energetic without any healthful detox or repair. oh wait, i'm arguing for fruits...I guess because I know that if I could eat fruits healthfully right now I would, even if that meant some small fraction under perfection of total health.

In a way, it does make sense that because you are doing well and have no health issues, its sort of perfect to have just a strict - no matter what - timeline. To make sure you are pushing through anything temporary and really testing the true effects for yourself. So overall I guess I have no definitive opinion. Just more chatter to consider.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 04:24:33 am »
Inger, you say you eat raw wild edibles - what kind? It's just that most of the RZCers don't seem to focus much on variety or quality of foods. Some don't mind the grassfed issue and eat raw grainfed meats, others just make a point to eat 100% grassfed meats whenever possible, but none, until now, have mentioned eating raw wild game regularly, AFAIK.
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Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 05:15:49 am »
Inger that's interesting. You women seem to have less problems with ZC than men here. I wonder why that is.

I believe the crucial thing for Graham, is still the fat %. I don't think he recommends diabetics to add massive amounts of fruit to their already processed or fat heavy diet. Either way, his information has no value in my opinion.

He puts clients on a two week mono diet, usually bananas. It does seem to work if they are off insulin by the end of first week. I wasn't really promoting a fruitarian way of eating. Just interested about potential insulin resistance because of fruit in my diet. But if fruit is healing diabetics then I see no reason why I should fear them if I am not experiencing health problems. Dr Harris says they are just sugar in an attractive package, candy bars from trees as he likes to call them. But why are the 3000-7000 cal consuming fruitarians not fat if it's just candy? Try eating that same amount in m&m's or even just pasta and see what happens after just few days. I always get lost when I get into the science stuff. They all cite their references and stuff making it look very convincing but then in reality the opposite seems true. That's why I just have to go by my own experience and come to my own conclusions.

 

 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 06:50:00 am by actionhero »
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Offline Inger

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 05:48:09 am »
I eat dandelions(flowers), nettels, linden leaves (these are my ultimate favorit), chickweed.. etc.

I think there are someting in wild edibles, that we don't get from meat etc. But I don't eat a lot.  ;)
Linden leaves I do eat in larger amounts.

I also by grassfed beef only, I do. Wild game if I get it.
Just if I don't get it on occasion, I eat organic beef. But grassfed tastes so much better!

I think I have no problems, because I am Scandinavian (Norwegian). My grandpa was Scottish.. so I think my genes are just used to eat a lot of meat?
No idea!
But I eat marrow too, and liver, and heart, eggyolks, fish.. everything. That helps a lot, I think!  :)

Hier some pics from my food;
This is linden leaves with beefliver(aged) and dried heart mixed with native coconutoil (sorry, but I so love coconutoil!!!).



And this is grassfed beef with grassfed tallow. And a nettle.  ;)



This is nettlewater, well water with fresh nettles.. let it stay over night, and enjoy. Delicious!



Hier my teeths from today morning.. I feel this way of eating helps my teeths heal, I do. (even if it does not help them became stright..hehe.. But strong they are!  ;) )



Inger
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 06:14:32 am by Inger »

Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 03:54:20 pm »
Day 3 without fruit now. Woke up pretty tired. There is weakness in my muscles especially legs. The most obvious thing I'm noticing is the effect on my brain. It is working only 3/10 where before it was 10/10. It really feels like it is not being powered, cut off from energy. My head hurts a bit in the front. Not sure I'll be able to get much work done today.
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Offline Inger

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 04:35:45 pm »
actionhiero,

can you post what you eat each day?  :)
That would be intresting!
How much fat.. etc.

Are you eating organs etc.? Eggyolks? Have you tried wild edibles?
I count them to ZC too, because they have almost no carbs. Just a LOT of vitamins and minerals. True medicine... maybe you could need some now.. to help you in your transition. ;)

It might take some weeks to feel good. Altough I don't remember this myself, I felt quite good from the beginning.. -\

Inger

Offline actionhero

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 04:58:48 pm »
No I don't like greens (lovely pics btw). This is purely a carnivore experiment. Eggs do nothing for me. I can drink 6-8 raw eggs no problem but they are not as nourishing as raw fatty meat. As to what I eat, yesterday I had 600gr of raw ground beef spread over 2 meals. Wasn't even hungry that much and probably could have had just one meal. I'm not really looking for solutions to what is happening. I know what is going on. My body is being deprived of sugar and it hasn't yet adapted to making sufficient energy from fat. A meal of fruit would instantly give me a rush of energy because that is what it has been running on. I'm just reporting what I go through. It might not get better until I get past the 4-6 week barrier. 
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2010, 05:32:41 pm »
Love your pics Inger.
Can you cross post it in the recipes section?
It's just so different when it's a woman, you just have to put some style into it.

Can I blog about your presentation pics?

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Offline ForTheHunt

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2010, 06:22:32 pm »
No I don't like greens (lovely pics btw). This is purely a carnivore experiment. Eggs do nothing for me. I can drink 6-8 raw eggs no problem but they are not as nourishing as raw fatty meat. As to what I eat, yesterday I had 600gr of raw ground beef spread over 2 meals. Wasn't even hungry that much and probably could have had just one meal. I'm not really looking for solutions to what is happening. I know what is going on. My body is being deprived of sugar and it hasn't yet adapted to making sufficient energy from fat. A meal of fruit would instantly give me a rush of energy because that is what it has been running on. I'm just reporting what I go through. It might not get better until I get past the 4-6 week barrier. 

That's what I kept thinking. I kept thinking oohh my body just needs to get adapted to keto.

Never happened. Brainfog for 2 and a half months before I realized it just wasn't gonna happen.
Take everyones advice with a grain of salt. Try things out for your self and then make up your mind.

Offline Inger

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2010, 07:14:27 pm »
Love your pics Inger.
Can you cross post it in the recipes section?

I will.

Quote
Can I blog about your presentation pics?



Of course. :)

Nice that you like my pics & my food. I love eating this way. With wild edibles it feels like perfect! (of course, in winter here are no greens, but thats fine. When spring comes, I just start popping them again.. no problems with going some time without)
I feel, they solve all the problems about -potassium -magnesium - vit.C -calcium...
All meat eaters in the past, like Indians, Masai.. etc also included wild edibles, when they was available.
That's something folks tend to forget, when ZC...  :'( That's is against nature. My cat is pure carnivore, and she ets grass too.  ;)
Maybe that is why some ZCers get serious health-problems?  -X


Inger


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 07:16:02 pm »
GS is right, lovely pictures and,yes, the recipes forum(culinary creations) would be an appropriate place.
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Offline KD

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2010, 11:15:48 pm »
That's what I kept thinking. I kept thinking oohh my body just needs to get adapted to keto.

Never happened. Brainfog for 2 and a half months before I realized it just wasn't gonna happen.


I've seen people on other VLC boards that have mentioned up to over 3 months for fat adaptation. I think the other elephant in the room seems to be how much protein is actually being converted into glucose. So those who are not consciously monitoring their fat intake, or have poor protein utilization (like myself possibly? as I am not experiencing any kind of keto super energy yet either) Might not be burning fat for energy at all during periods of all animal foods. Although I can say that my fatigue, brain fog - if I would ever categorize it as that, and other candida symptoms are indeed somewhat better on VLC, just nothing dramatic yet, although I think my body seems to have an extensive laundry list of other crap to do.

Hier some pics from my food;
Inger

Awesome. Is this the most recently profile pic as well? you look like a totally different person than the last.

Offline Inger

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2010, 01:02:04 am »
Hi KD,

Quote
Awesome. Is this the most recently profile pic as well? you look like a totally different person than the last.

Yes, this picture is from yesterday.
The other one was just after I started ZC in January this year.  :)

Inger


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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2010, 05:04:06 am »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36154/?topicseen#new
Well, judging from the past accounts, those who do well on raw, zero-carb are the ones who already knew they had some sort of food-intolerance towards most carbs by the time they started RZC. At least , all the long-termers are like that(Lex, paleophil etc. etc.)
Actually, I knew I had a problem with gluten and I suspected that I had more problems handling carbs than some other people could, but I had no inkling how extensive the problem was--if I did I would have tried ZC much earlier. I was surprised to learn that even raw whole fruits give me problems.

Quote
The catch is the transitionary period which even successful RZCers find mildly inconvenient re symptoms,
I didn't have any of the transition symptoms that others have reported. My early period was actually probably the best. My bowels were the best in decades and I felt euphoric quite often. Improvements have happened each time I've eliminated a food(s) that it turns out I have problems with, then something seems to gradually kick in again--possibly the immune system--and I get some return of some past symptoms, but generally not as bad as before. With ZC and VLC I've had the least relapse of all, so far. My progress seems to have plateaued now, though.

Quote
and there are many unsuccessful RZC-triers who have been unable to continue, with most of the latter not managing to get past c.3 weeks or so without experiencing difficulties - a few even get issues at a much earlier date.
Yes, there are some tricks to ZC that the peoples who ate meat-heavy diets learned over thousands of years but which most of us moderners are not aware of. For example, it's apparently important to include organs in the diet and make sure your iodine and magnesium intakes are sufficient and to drink plenty of water (I didn't realize I was dehydrated until I did a Multistix urinalysis). I think that including some plant foods (like greens and herbs and maybe crucifers and roots), seaweeds and sea salt may reduce the risk of nutrient deficiencies, since some animal foods (like brains and blood) are not readily available today.

Quote
The other catch(for those who have no issues with carbs at the start) is that as you spend very long periods on a very low RVLC diet or RZC diet, your body changes so that the enzymes/bacteria used to digest carbs are no longer used so that one develops an increasing inability to handle the digestion of any carbs.
I have read about that but oddly haven't experienced it. On the contrary, I seem to be handling carbs a little bit better. I haven't seen anyone else report this, though and I wonder whether adding Dr. Ron's iodine foodlements helped because I noticed it after I started doing that. Vitamin K supplements also appear to be helping reduce (but not eliminate) the dental plaque from carbs.

---

Fruit doesn't cause insulin problems, no matter how sugary they are. It's only processed carbs that give you insulin problems.
All plant carbs and honey (including raw honey and even raw comb honey) give me problems like feeling chilled, dry, flaky skin, painful cystic acne, mental fog, fatigue, increased hairloss, etc. Plus, carbohydrate intolerance (www.merck.com/mmpe/sec02/ch017/ch017c.html), fructose malabsorption and hereditary fructose intolerance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption) are known medical conditions. So not everyone does well on fruits.

I think that this will only cause you problems.. I did RZC for 2 months and felt pretty shitty the whole time. Energy and strength was there, but mental clarity and happiness just vanished. I felt brainfog, super irritation and had problems thinking.

Now I've introduced fruit in sizeable quantities to my diet and my skin looks great, even better then rzc, my hair has stopped being greasy and is now very light, shiny and fluffy. And best of all my bowel movements are just super regular and I just feel like my self again, energetic and happy.
My experience was the opposite of yours. I felt better on RZC than any other diet (though adding seaweeds, greens, herbs and a little bit of crucifers didn't noticeably worsen it--it just didn't make it any better other than temporarily raising my urine pH a little, which theoretically might be better). My energy, strength, mental clarity and happiness increased on ZC. My brainfog went away, my thinking and focus improved and my daydreams disappeared. When I reintroduced fruit, I had some return of irritated cystic acne, dry/flaky skin and scalp that is oily at the same time,  felt worse again, more fatigued, slept more poorly and the usual mild euphoria from eating raw meats and fats usually does not occur when I include some raw fruits in a meal.

This is why it's so important that we speak only for ourselves when citing our own experience. Our individual experiences do not necessarily apply to everyone. It's dangerous to assume that they do. Some people who report doing really well on fruit (such as Harley Johnstone aka DurianRider) have implied that everyone does and some people who report doing really well on ZC (such as CW of ZIOH and William) also have appeared to imply that everyone does. I think that both extremes are incorrect. I recommend Lex's approach of just speaking for one's self.

>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hans89

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2010, 05:41:19 am »
@palephil:

How do you eat the seaweed? Do you get it dried or fresh?

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Re: 6 Month Zero Carb Experiment
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2010, 05:57:46 am »
Dried. I've never seen it sold fresh.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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