As of today I've decided to go off the 100% ketogenic diet and go for what's called a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD).  Basically you consume about 30g carbs before or after the gym.  It's supposed to help maintain glycogen stores.  I'm consuming after the gym.   

I'm having a little trouble understanding what's been going on with my body the past week.  I use keto strips to test ketones in the urine.  When I first got back to ketosis, my urine ketone levels went up just as I was starting to feel crappy from low blood sugar, but they dropped to almost nill the next morning and for the next 2 weeks, whether morning, noon, night, or after a meal.  Basically telling me that my body went from burning carbs+fat but not ketones (that's why they were excreted in the urine), to burning mostly just fat+ketones (no longer excreted in urine b/c they're burned up).  But lately I've had an upsurge in urine ketones.  I thought maybe I wasn't getting enough fat so last night I ate no carbs, and really upped the fat, but I still had a moderate amount.  Same thing this morning after almost 12 hrs no food and also right before the gym today. 

Does that maybe mean my body is just burning a lot of fat and not using all the ketones?  Why would that be the case?  Seems inefficient.  All I can really think is that my body is converting protein to carbs, which are for glycogen and are also getting used some for energy in the process.  I've also noticed my cold tolerance has dropped slightly, especially when my urine readings are high. 

Not only that, but I've had 3 weeks now to adapt, and my weights are just barely increasing.  I remember going to the gym, lifting those first few plates and thinking, "man this feels light today."  I don't get that feeling since in ketosis.  In fact, I haven't increased my deadlift except by 1 rep on 1 set since I've started VLC.  And on Tuesday, I couldn't complete the 2nd rep of my incline dumbell press on 85 lbs (each arm).  I was doing 2 sets of 8 for 80lbs the last time I lifted that exercise, and I had plenty of time to rest since my last upper body workout (5 days, with 2 in a row being completely off).

Now if my results in the gym had slowed but my urine ketones had remained low, I would just chalk this up to my body taking time to adjust, and give it more time.  But the fact that my body is excreting ketones makes me think that I'm converting a lot of protein to carbs for the purpose of glycogen replenishment, and that my body is inadvertently using some for energy as well.  That would explain the ketone readings, and also my stalling results in the gym. 

So why am I going to use a metabolically inefficient process to convert expensive protein to carbs when the result will be the same if I just eat carbs?  I'm actually hoping the post workout carbs will help me maintain ketosis better, as I can replace glycogen pretty quickly making it unnecessary for my body to convert protein, and thus it will switch back to using ketones soon after the shake.  I'll have to experiment with the right amt, I'm going with 25-35 right now.     

aunaturale,

I've tried zc a couple times before.  The first time was 2-3 weeks.  My breath started to smell really bad, and then for the first time in my life, I developed cavities (purely by chance, I had a checkup a few weeks after my zc trial, but refused to have my cavities drilled/filled).  I also had bowel problems and low energy.  Adding just a few carbs - less than 30g - and my breath and energy immediately recovered; after year now, the dentist has confirmed that I no longer have dental carries, just a couple small indentations where they had gone down in the tooth some.  The other time was after at least 3 months of VLC, and I stopped after a week b/c my breath began to smell bad again.  I figured it wasn't worth it to try again, especially considering other people on the forum have had similar experiences.

Okay so I said I'd post on what I've been up to the last few months. 

So back when I started doing the cyclical ketogenic diet, I would notice an inflated effect to my muscles and liked it.  And I had to travel quite a bit between June and October (sometimes had to eat at a chow hall).  So I pretty much caved and started eating more and more carbs, grains included.  I still made sure to eat raw meat and raw fat, but I liked the effects of insulin on growth, and of course the inflated look.  I didn't consider the grains to be too bad.  My reasoning was that excess carbs (grains) aren't necessarily unhealthy (aka grain=bad), but it is the insulin resistance that develops as a result that is unhealthy, and I was doing plenty of weight lifting which increases insulin sensitivity.  I guess there's still things like gluten intolerance, and yes, I noticed some negative side effects when I really started to add more grains.  But eventually my body adapted, and I was still getting plenty of raw meat. 

My growth though had somewhat stagnated despite changing up my workout plan and trying a few different things.  Kind of frustrating, b/c now the extra carbs didn't seem to be helping me bulk or get any stronger.  So I went back to the internet, the trusty source for all kinds of knowledge (after you filter through tons of crap), and found this guy Jason Ferruggia.  Basically he says that if you want to get bigger and stronger, you have to lift very heavy, with basic movements, and spend no more than 45 mins per session (b/c of how your horomones respond during lifting).

So at the beginning of December I started doing his program - 3 days a week lifting, 5-8 reps to failure, only only 2 sets per exercise, doing large basic movements (squats, deads, weighted pullups and pushups, plus a few others).  Once you can do 8 reps, it's time to increase the weight.  This was working great, and I mean great.  My back and shoulders quickly filled out, which I had negleted somewhat in the past months.  Perhaps more importantly, I was stronger every time I set foot in the gym, whether in weight or reps.  I did this for about 2-3 weeks, and then took a break between Christmas and the new year.  It was the quickest change I had seen in strength or body composition, although it was only for a couple weeks. 

So then I got to thinking that perhaps my earlier experiment with VLC and weights was hampered not b/c of the diet, but b/c I wasn't doing the right kind of program in the gym.  I was making slow gains with VLC, but definitely not losing anything.  Not only that, the carb metabolism made me put on fat with the mucle, in addition to the added digestive problems b/c of mixing all the carbs and meat.  So I wanted to find out if I can repeat these results on VLC. 

So 1 Jan I started getting back to ketosis, which sucked, but was over in a few days.  Then I went back to the gym on the 5th.  I was definitely weaker in the gym for the first 7 days, but after the 1st week I had recovered an equal amount of strength from when I left off in carb metabolism.  I just finished out my second week, and I have improved a little from when I left off carb metabolism, although the improvements still haven't matched the rapid pace from earlier.  I think part of that is b/c heavy squats and deadlifts were new to me, so you have the neurological effects where your body is first learning to recruit more fibers before growing the existing ones, and I may have been reaching the end of that "newbie" phase just as I was starting ketosis.

I also think a good portion is that I've been out of ketosis for a solid 7 months.  I have read that gene expression is altered when in ketosis, and I've read it can take 22 weeks for a full adaptation (enzyme and bacterial changes in the gut, enzyme expression in the mitochondria, etc).  Even though it may take that long, I've read some studies  ( http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/1950-all-about-fats-print.html ) that claim results in the gym should be showing in a few weeks.  [I know Lex has said up to a couple years, but I think age and recovery from prior conditions may increase that significantly].

So what this means for me is that I'm going to keep this up for at least a month to give my body some adapation time.  As long as I'm making steady gains through February, even if they aren't as dramatic as when I first started, then I'll keep this up for the next 4-6 months or so.  I feel optimistic that I'll be able to replicate the results, perhaps do even better on VLC.  I can tell I'm not fully adapted yet as the sight/smell of pasta, rice, pizza, etc just gets my mouth watering.  I remember not really having these problems when doing VLC for a few months (after having transitioned there from low carb 30-60 grams a day for a good 4-6 months). 

In a lot of ways it's important to me that this works out like I hope it will.  First, my digestion is so much better this way.  And I never really get those strong hunger pangs like I do when eating carbs.  After 3-5 days, I could feel that my eyesight and mind were getting much sharper.  It was kind of crazy how different it was.  And the cold adaptation was amazing.  I set my thermostat a good 5 degrees lower (farenheit), and instead of wearing a sweatshirt, I'll often just go shirtless now and feel just fine.  I mean, every other metric that I can think of shows just how much better ketosis is than carb metabolism, and I really consider it optimum for the body.  I also consider heavy lifting one of the best things you can do as exercise for the body.  If done properly, it improves joint strength, increases insulin sensitivity, and makes every day lifting and movement easier and safer - that is so long as you maintain flexibility and don't roid it up like those guys on the magazines. 

So really, if ketosis and lifting don't go together, I'll guess I'll be forced to re-evaluated my viewpoint on at least one of these items.  I wish there was more study done on this subject.  Almost all of the studies done with ketosis are terminated after a week or two, and invariably are done on cooked diets.  Seems like I've read quite a bit of conflicting accounts about ketosis and lifting.  Guess I'll just have to keep at it and see.

For those who are concerned about the legalities of vaccinations:

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/legally_avoid_shots.htm

Apparently the truth is that no workplace or school can require you or your children to be vaccinated.  They will tell you otherwise until they're blue in the face, but the law is on your side.

I just see adding carbohydrates to a ZC diet as kind of tragic. Carbohydrates are not a reward for the body in any sense.  Fatty meat is delicious and nourishing. Why would anyone who is adapted WANT anything else? I feel so sorry for the posters on LCF and ALC who are still on the LC cycle of feeling "deprived" and "hungry." Of course--carbohydrates make you hungry and make you crave, and contribute nothing to health, energy and great body composition (unless you want to be counting calories).

I am happy to eat a lot of meat, lift heavy weights and look and feel my absolute leannest and strongest. I am so glad to not be hungry anymore, eating on my schedule to MY convenience.  Being ZC is a lifesaver.

You said you lift heavy weights on zc.  For the past 8 months I've been eating lots of carbs for insulin/glycogen, but haven't really experienced great results in the gym, although admittedly I've been doing more gymnastics type workouts than heavy lifting, and doing 5 days a week of that (not enough rest time).

But recently I read a book by Jason Ferruggia, basically saying if your goal is size and strength, you should be lifting 5-8 reps to failure, 2 sets per exercise; doing basic compound movements, squats, deads, and large pushing/pulling exercises for the upper body.  I've only been doing this the past couple weeks but it's worked out pretty good, I'm adding weight/reps every time I step in the gym now. 

Is this type of workout what you mean when you say heavy lifting?  I'm curious to see if I can keep adding strength on VLC, so for the first time since June I got back in ketosis.  I've read all kinds of material that talks about how a ketogenic diet will tend to bring your strength down, but I'm not so sure that any of those people have tried for more than a week or two.  Did it take you to adapt before your strength levels returned and began improving?  Do you make sure to eat anything right after your workout or does it not seem to matter much?         

 

I do just that.  For the 1st 24 hours after I workout (mon, wed, fri), I will eat plenty of carbs.  So if it's a Monday workout, I'll eat lots of carbs until Tue evening, and then switch to fatty steak.  Wed afternoon lunch will be steak again, until just before my workout when I'll flood my body with carbs again in preparation. 

I don't seem to have any problems, but again, I can only get away with this b/c weight lifting greatly increases insulin sensitivity.  Otherwise, I couldn't really justify all the carbs, it would lead to insulin resistance. 

Ideally though, I think it's still better for the digestive tract to be 100% in ketosis w/ a couple large meals per day, or completely sugar burning with 4-6 small meals per day.  The better of the two options being ketosis, as you probably have built up insulin resistance from years of carb overload.

I wouldn't say the differences are too huge, but there is a difference. 

I played 1.5 hrs of tennis plus 30 mins of sprints 5 days a week back in high school.  I never really worried about technique and I never really had many problems with injury, but I was 10 years younger, more resilient, and hadn't devloped much dysfunction.  I still do some light sprints about once a week, and also lift legs in the gym.   

I broke at least 7 bones in my left mid foot a few years ago, so I tend to not push too hard.  I'm not really into the different forms of running other than the occasional shoe'd jog or rare barefoot jog through a grass park.  I'm playing a little tennis today.  Should be fun.   

POSE looks intersesting.  I'm not sure if it will do much for injury prevention, but it looks like it has potential for increasing long distance running times.  It looks more like an energy conservation technique, I don't think it will do much to increase sprinting times as the form for greatest speed is quite different. 

If you're looking to prevent injury, run on grass or the beach, and do tons of ankle rotations.  It will keep away shin splints.  Also, be sure to mix it up.  Some days do sprints, lunges, frog leaps, etc.  Other days run a mile for time, and still other days go for a 5k.  Try not to get locked in to solely long distance running, as it probably isn't all that great for the body.  Mix it up alot, and make sure to take care of the upper body as well: push-ups, pull-ups, body weight exercises.   

I'm in to the Egoscue method.  Great stuff.  I take his books as a starting point, as I have used other methods for realignment and strengthening to great benefit as well.  His books are written for the lowest common denominator (the mostly sedentary), and will put you back to a good state, but b/c it is a book, cannot be tailor made to your individual dysfunction, though it will greatly alleviate most of them. 

For example, he doesn't have much that deals with rotator cuff strenghtening, which was the source of my elbow and wrist problems for years.  When my girlfirend (a phys trainer) had me work on the rotator cuff, my elbow and wrist problems have all but disappeared.  But Egoscue mentions very little of that in his books - I also lift weights and do gymnastics, I'm sure that adds an element of complexity.

I used to be a sprinter, and I will tell you that once you reach certain speeds, tip toe is the fastest and most efficient way of moving.  I'm sure that some long dist runners can sustain these speeds.  But just jogging, yeah, heel-to-toe may be acceptable.  When jogging/running barefoot I tend to land on the front of my foot alot more to better absorb shock.  Also, I think that when Egoscue says we are supposed to land h-t-t, he's prob referring more to walking than running.  I'm not an expert, so that's really just a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess).

My thoughts on taking up different forms of running at 38:  start slowly, take breaks often if you need them, and perhaps most importantly, make an appointment with a sports alignment/rehab specialist.  They will help spot sources of dysfunction that you may never have noticed, and can give you a tailor made program for your pariticular quirks.  Stretch and try to become as flexible as possible in many different planes, and do lots of ankle rotations.

Good luck!

I go the opposite actually.  Raw meat and cooked carbs.  I'd go with Tyler's advice.  Eat a big meal of raw meat and fat a good few hours before bed, and then try to eat some again in the morning.  Snack on carbs throughout the day, avoiding the toxic way overly cooked meat from the cafeteria. 

Pizza and french fries are the worst foods on the planet.

They combine the worst of cooked fats with carb overload.  Too bad pizza is my fav food of all time.

This thread I find to be one of the most interesting we've had in a while, in that I have (for one of the first times), the inclination to believe that cooked egg whites proteins are more easily digested and absorbed than raw.  I didn't think this was possible b/c of enzymes and molecule structure.  I realize that fibers can be more digestible when cooked b/c you turn some in to starch/sugar, but I never thought the same would be true of any cooked protein.

But I have to admit that when eating raw eggs, I digest the yolk just fine, but have noticed some minor stomach issues with the whites.  In fact, when I was eating 8-16 eggs a day, I noticed it was better to eat some berries with it, or I would sometimes have a slightly upset stomach.

So that experience combined with some of the things I've read here lead me to believe that it's likely raw egg white protein assimliates less well than cooked. 

Makes me wonder if this is true for any other type of animal protein source.  At any rate, it makes me happy b/c I LOVE over-easy eggs.  I could put away 4-6 even as a 5 year old.  I think I will start eating eggs again for breakfast.

I've thought of this before, how would you ween a child on to a diet high in raw animal products.  Especially without developed teeth and jaw muscles?  Meat can be pretty tough to chew, especially raw.  Well, I realized the answer one day flipping through the channels watching a mama bird vomit up food to her young'uns. 

In paleo times, a mother would have probably chewed up the food first, and then fed it to her child.  The food would easily go down, and the saliva would already have begun to break down the food.  Not only that, but I'm sure anitbodies would get passed as well.  Good luck convincing the wifey.