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Messages - Paleo Donk

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Journals / Re: Round 2: From addiction to recovery
« on: September 05, 2010, 02:14:44 am »
Hello All,

I just picked up my 30-day chip at my half-way house which is given out for those who achieved 30 consecutive days a row of sobriety. I have been technically(from substances) sober for longer but not anywhere near mentally and I have finally been put in a situation where I can look really get to know myself.

Excluding myself from my computer and from my solitude has miraculously put me in a much better place in life. I did however suffer from perhaps the most depressing thoughts I have ever had the first few days in my new place. I thoroughly convinced part of me (whatever that means) that I was useless and would be so the rest of my life and that my actions as a whole would be a net negative (in terms of expected value) to the world. The clear solution to this is suicide. The whole world would benefit, not to mention some life insurnace money for my parents. Luckily not all of me had come to terms with this but mathematically it made sense. Somehow these feelings left. I realized I loved everybody else but myself. I really hated myself and many of the titles I had carried so tightly. Even my diet was a significant part of who I was. I was better than everyone because of my failing diet...

Going to 12 step meetings everyday and being around people in recovery has been an incredible experience and I no longer think of myself as worthless. I am also no longer following any sort of diet. I eat lots of fast food, lots of sweets, it all tastes so good and I feel pretty good to. I have a job where I tutor 9th graders in math all day. Its a perfect job for me. I enjoy coming to work.

One point I wanted to make was that as much as our food is polluted with toxic elements the society we live in is probably equally or more "polluted" with elements that we have not evolved to deal with accordingly and thus I must continually do what it takes to detox from these mental, emotional and behavioral challenges. I have enormous struggles overcoming the years of mistaken beliefs, enabling and the such that have dominated my life. Like with diet, these continuous stresses have accumulated within me to "toxic" levels and like many here must diet daily to stay in good health I must partake in a number of different cognitive behavioral strategies to stay healthy. The best strategy is simply to be with other people who have empathy for you and to talk about whatever it is that is on our minds. This is exactly what the half-way house has provided me - an environment where I can express myself without fear. My roomates are tremendous and the meetings, though I don't agree completely with all the 12 step program, have set me free of my tumultuous struggle with the definition of God. I am the most spiritual I have ever been and probably the least religious and I feel so content with this.

Life, of course is not all rosy with bloody lamb shanks but the confidence I have to find help is growing. I am attending family therapy and have a few friends that have been talking honestly to about failry regularly, one of whom has helped bunches is a guy who posts here who's name starts with K and ends with D.

I am trying to take things slowly and in moderation. I was going to avoid this board for much longer but realized this practice would have been too strict. I can live with moderation for certain things. Drugs and alcohol not so much. Internet, yes. I was going to do the same with women - avoid them completely but I think this too was too perfectionist. I do have codependt tendencies but not to the point of addiction.

I will not post much at all, but I did want to check in with an update.

One dietary note - I did complete a successful liver flush the day before I went to my place. Lots and lots of small green stones came out. I felt no different the day after but could "feel" my gallbladder for the next couple weeks. I would like to come back to rpd at sometime in the future its just not something I want to think about right now.

Journals / Re: Round 2: From addiction to recovery
« on: August 03, 2010, 04:17:14 am »
Hello Miles,

You are correct that my post had little to do with your statement, I've just had these thoughts about dietary connections for a while and reading through the black swan again has further cemented these thoughts and I just really needed an excuse to get them out.


Hopefully this will be one of my last posts for a long while. I am going to stay at a half-way house type place as I simply cannot get my life in order at my parent's house. I thought I could but there is no real fire under my belly. I have nearly run out of money so its imperative that I get a job and stop talking about getting a job. There are so many days where I feel so close to having everything coming together but at the end of the day I still don't have a job, and am not doing the things that I really would love to do. Volunteer to help others, play sports, do other outdoor activities, rehab my joints, talk to women, do serious practice overcoming my phobias, taking better notes of my dietary progress, and more.

I had a great epiphany this past week in a family therapy session. I have, from what I remember always been extraordinarily angry. I have talked about this many, many times in this journal. My first memories are of me being angry when I lost board games. I never understood why I was so angry and why I cried out in so much pain whenever I lost. Why was I self sabotaging myself?

It appears that I was crying out for someone to be my parent. I needed someone to tell me how to act. I was desperately needing an authority figure. Someone to tell me not to act a certain way. I grew up with a tremendous amount of 'love' with both my parents and grandparents at my side. I was virtually never told that it wasn't ok to act out. Its funny because I do tell people very bluntly how I think they should act in certain situations. But, what I am really doing is trying to myself that. I had this uncontrollable crying session once I was helped to piece together the puzzle leading me to believe the connection is very strong.

I know whats right and wrong, I  need to start listening to myself. I need some structure first and this is the reason for the half-way house. I don't really know how to live. I've done my laundry three times in the past year, which is a record high actually.

On a very positive note, I ended up with the grand slam ball hit by one of the Astros in their game against the Brewers yesterday. It was hit right to me. I finally made it on to sportscenter.

Saw a bit of the first film. Unbelievable stuff. The inuits are just complete bad asses. I fast forwarded it to around the 17 minute mark and there is this dude catching fish with his spear and then biting the head immediately afterward. Then they kill a walrus and have to have three men tug it back to shore and immediately start eating it. This next sentence is for TD. A fantastic example of how modern weightlifting (rowing and deadlifts) would greatly improve their life functioning.

Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: August 02, 2010, 01:19:09 am »
Hello Lex,

I must admit that I love your attitude towards diet and wish I had more simple non-convoluted thoughts you seem to possess and am most happy about your statement about spending your time doing things you love. This is no doubt I believe a key to your health and vitality.

Unfortunately for me, I am obsessed over smaller details and don't really feel settled at all with my decisions with regards to dieting. One of the more troubling issues I have come across while on this diet is at what level protein begins to become toxic (or at least sub-optimal) to the body. There is a great thread on the dirty carnivore forum about health problems found in the Inuit.,304.0.html

Since the Inuit did appear to possibly suffer from some bone health issues, one connection can be made is regards to the protein level in their diet as higher levels of protein intake have, as even studied in some controlled trials have shown to decrease calcium balance.

Mean calcium balance decreased from 8mg to -62mg per day when the protein intake was increased; the difference was highly significant (P <0.001).
The diets differed in protein content from 48g to 142g per day. I have uncovered quite a few more studies like this one that show similar results. It is no doubt that protein becomes acutely toxic at some level - I believe beginning in the 250-300g per day as this is where nitrogen excretion capabilities of the body seem to be maximized.

There is no way to tell the protein intakes of these pre-contact eskimos but it does really make me wonder if some of them were consuming protein well in excess. For me, excess protein(as the case where significant carbohydrate is in the diet) is the level just above where nitrogen balance takes place, which from studies is remarkably low - perhaps in the 30-50g per day range. As Alphagruis likes to point out, humans do not have the enzyme uricase as do other mammals to help reuse nitrogen end products.

Clearly there is much to the story and I will be experimenting with low-protein diets or intermittent protein consumption in the future to test this. Perhaps humankind had to turn to more plant sources and higher protein once the megafauna died out and the earth warmed.

Journals / Re: Round 2: From addiction to recovery
« on: July 31, 2010, 10:34:14 pm »
Hello Miles,

I am going to use your above statement to further dictate to everyone my personal philosophies on the matter of attributing causation to different factors in diet. It seems to me that once a person has an inkling or just the smallest seed of security about a connection between dietary factor and human physical condition that this person will without a doubt try to confirm this belief at every instance possible. And the more information gathered, the more this connection will be confirmed. It is nearly impossible to break away from this type of thinking as we are programmed to make these very connections. What is troubling is that modern society is many magnitudes more complex than what we evolved in and so the connections we have made have run astray and have little to do with reality. Its like looking at a very starry night and picking out the dots that connect with the current image in your mind. Humans are so incredibly good at picking out the dots that align exactly with their current story its scary. Scarier indeed is the ego that possess us so tightly in this modern world that we may almost never admit to even looking to challenge our own so sacred thoughts.

This is why I like to think that I will continually look for reasons why my thoughts are wrong. It is so easy to see how I can perpetuate my own connections. I do so without trying. It is so natural and comfortable. But to admit that your thinking is wrong or partially distorted is perhaps the key to life. Once you have motivation to change your thoughts and accept that you are not your thoughts, life can become so much easier. Depression is so hard to let go because of my attachment to the 'fact' that I am worthless. Its so easy to find instances where I look worthless and virtually AM worthless or situations where my presence is wholly a negative. My own confirmation bias of myself is so deeply ingrained within me. I am slowly pulling my way out of this enormous hole that I have dug for myself. Luckily I have some excellent tools to get out now. I just need to find myself far away from the edge of this hole because it seems so easy to fall right back in.

Hot Topics / Re: IT'S EVERWHERE.
« on: July 31, 2010, 09:44:08 pm »
We had a small thread on this a while back -

If water could be used as fuel(among many, many other disqualifications), there would be several more videos on youtube with as many hits but for now there is just one. Since I know virtually nothing I tend to never dismiss anything even something as preposterous sounding as water being used for fuel. But a little science and a little reasoning completely disprove this.

Off Topic / Re: PDAs
« on: July 31, 2010, 08:22:30 pm »
I'm going to give you a huge hug TD and kiss both your cheeks sincerely whenever we meet.

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: The Ideal VLC Paleo Fruit?
« on: July 29, 2010, 01:17:04 am »
This will be my last thoughts since I've already wasted too much space and my posts are not really important but my instinct to fight is alive and so my debate goes on. I'm not sure exactly what I'm arguing but I do see some flaws in your argument.

Namely that watermelon is harder to overconsume than berries. Overconsume is not a well defined word to begin with so think of it however way you wish. I find that juice which is just fiberless fruit the easiest to consume and easiest to overconsume as I have in the past been able to drink a couple quarts of mango juice effortlessly. Even fresh squeezed juice is quite easy to overconsume. Watermelon is one of the closest fruits we have to juice. Even the name implies it so at just .4% fiber. Blueberries on the other hand have 6 times as much fiber as watermelon and its this fibrous mass that I believe allows us to consume the fruit at a more 'natural' level. I can haphazardly explain it as so - For the fruit's sake it probably wants us to eat as much as possible as long as its seeds get deposited with adequate human fertilizer and so perhaps its this fiber that is important for ejecting seeds properly.

I also have to question your line about water being satiating and thus making hard to overconsume fruits with lots of water. There is an experiment I read about thanks to Good Calories Bad Calories where they give rats some sucrose water as their only source of calories. The rats will continue to drink the water and sucrose solution all the way until it is diluted up to 98% water. Yes, they would be very bloated but the urge to get the correct caloric content is there and I would assume very similar to humans as there are plenty of fruitarians that eat enormous volumes of fruit every day with loads and loads of water.

Many of us here do use fruits to control hunger. Why else eat them? There is an urge to eat some carbohydrate and fruits seem like a natural raw choice. I would choose a fruit that satisfies my hunger best so in that sense the fruits we eat do control a certain part of our hunger.

Overall this makes it seem that berries are probably more worthwhile to consume. Though, and this is an important distinction - when one is attempting to heal the body, different foods can have a significant advantage over foods that a healthy body can process and is the reason so many vegetarians to the juice fasting bit as this does help temporarily regulate their digestive systems. And so watermelons can be far better than berries for some and like you said self-experimentation is key.

The fact that the Kung eat the melon cooked is not satisfying to me as this implies something not right with its raw state.

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: The Ideal VLC Paleo Fruit?
« on: July 28, 2010, 11:42:01 pm »
A higher water to sugar ratio would be better, no?  I don't get what your trying to say

This again shows faulty logic and reasoning. Percentage of water or sugar or calories in a food does not necessarily mean anything. There is no yes or no answer here. If you think so, then again just dilute some sugar with water and drink for your easily digesting post workout carb meal.

So you get to eat more watermelon, get less sugar and more nutrition.  If your eating by hunger watermelon seems like a better option?

Again, poor reasoning and a poor question to pose. If watermelon is easily digested it makes it harder to control hunger for most which will likely cause watermelon to be overeaten in the real world. I don't know one indigenous tribe that eats watermelon but nearly all of them eat berries. This is getting way off topic to the OP and is just a pointless argument over nothing that actually matters.

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: The Ideal VLC Paleo Fruit?
« on: July 28, 2010, 10:34:55 pm »
By the way this comment,
Whenever I consume watermelon it is usually in much, much greater quantity (by weight) than blueberries
has no bearing on the sugar content of watermelon, I don't know why you would have to consume it in much greater quantities?

I am not arguing that watermelon is "low" in sugar. The point is that it does not necessarily matter what percentage of the food is sugar. I would easily wager that most people consume watermelon in much greater quantities than berries by weight and so of course this is going to have an enormous impact. Who eats by weight? Most of us eat by calories and satisfaction of hunger and so in the real world a greater amount of weight of watermelons is needed to satisfy hunger than that of berries. Looking at the glycemic index or load or whatever (you can't just dismiss something all together in fell swoop with a few words) by caloric content is going to be much worse for watermelon than berries.

As for the argument that 6g of water isn't going to make a difference -Look at the ratio of water to sugar its about 6:1 for blueberries and about 12:1 for watermelon, a substantial difference which is going to equate to more easily digested nutrition into the bloodstream for the watermelon which actually could be good for those who have bowel troubles with larger amounts of fiber.

As for being insulted. It is not your decision how I feel and has no bearing on what I believe. Feelings are just that, they exist regardless of whether or not the underlying thoughts that made a person feel that way are correct. I didn't personally feel insulted but I felt that the original wording you chose to attack the argument was intended as an insult or at least to make yourself look superior in some way. Perhaps this is wrong since this is the internet and I cannot readily gather all the pertinent information to make an informed decision but I am leaning towards insult.

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: The Ideal VLC Paleo Fruit?
« on: July 28, 2010, 09:48:16 pm »
Just to give you an idea of how ridiculous your comment is, blueberries contain 14.5g carbs/100g, would you classify blueberries as being high like hell in sugar???

I believe this to be an insult or at least thats how I would take it. As for your reasoning - Whenever I consume watermelon it is usually in much, much greater quantity (by weight) than blueberries and just as an educated guess since watermelon has a much higher percentage of it as water implying that its fibrous content is much lower than that of blueberries and so when eating equal amounts of sugar from both fruits my blood sugar is going to surge higher for watermelon than it is for blueberries. I would guess watermelon's glycemic index to be higher than blueberries and if you assume this to be a bad thing then eating watermelon is going to worse for the majority of the people here. I don't think many people ever eat by weight of fruit and instead eat by how they feel.  I mean with your logic, drinking a cup of water with added sugar less than 7.6% of the total should be better than watermelon. Why not do this and drop a vitamin C tab in it and just never eat fruit to begin with?

General Discussion / Re: Heart
« on: July 28, 2010, 06:08:51 am »
The hearts I get are always 'unraveled' and look like this.

Yes, the fat(suet I believe) is attached directly to the muscle meat. I don't know if this fat is technically considered heart or what not. It doesn't matter to me as long as the hearts I get keep coming with it attached. The actual muscle part of the heart is extremely lean and has virtually no fat dispersed inside it. Looking at the USDA nutrient database its marked as 18% protein and 4% fat which is different from normal lean beef muscle meat which is around 23% protein and 3% fat. This means heart has more water in it and I would guess(so easily could be wrong!) this is because the lean part is actually completely lean and free of fat whereas the muscle cuts actually have some intramuscular fat dispersed inside it. The heart is deep red, more monochromatic with no white in it whatsoever. Of course the fat part of the heart is likely to weigh quite a bit more than the 4% reported by the usda but perhaps the heart they used was trimmed up quite a bit from what is sold.

Journals / Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« on: July 26, 2010, 11:54:17 am »
Have your bowel movements improved since the HCL?

General Discussion / Re: Heart
« on: July 26, 2010, 09:10:59 am »
I've eaten several hearts the last 6 months but I would be wary of consuming too much and definitely be paying attention to how I feel. I do like the texture and find it easy to eat though I prefer the muscle cuts a bit more. As for the fat, the actual heart itself is extremely lean but I find that every heart I get has quite a bit of suet attached to it which is at least 4 times as calorie dense as the heart muscle. I happen to think the heart suet tastes fantastic and is also easy to eat.

Off Topic / Re: wheres roony
« on: July 26, 2010, 06:24:14 am »
I actually kept in contact with him and he convinced me to buy one of those water powered engines for my car. It worked. Free transportation for life suckas!

Where have you been?

Journals / Re: Round 2: From addiction to recovery
« on: July 26, 2010, 06:21:24 am »
I seem to gain and lose weight very easily depending on the carbohydrate in my diet. This last week or so I gained around 10 pounds. I'm guessing mostly water but it just seems like an enormous amount as I don't even feel like I am eating all that much. I am definitely overeating when carbs or cooked foods find their way into my diet. I gave my yolk diet a rest and ate quite a bit of cooked food, even some junk like cake and ice cream. I think the scale actually went from 186ish to 199. Just unbelievable really. This all coincides with my parents coming back and refilling the fridge again with their foods.

I have also bought a cheap digital thermometer and measure my temps randomly throughout the day and am averaging in the low 97's. Not horrible but my hands and feet still feel colder than most especially when I shake people's hands. My limbs also fall asleep pretty fast as well.

I have kept up with my liver cleansing protocol making sure I take my chinese tinctures. Castor oil packs are a really nice way to relax and something I would recommend everyone try. Apple cider vinegar in small amounts once a day with some iodine the last few days. I am going to be doing a liver flush very soon and see if this bombardment of liver cleansing things does anything. I am still unsure about what to do on the day of the flush but I think I will stick to fasting after 2 p.m.

I have also been convinced by a family therapist to go to a half-way house of sorts. I really can't get anything together here in my parents house. Its just a black hole for me with the computer in front of me. I am definitely feeling better but I really need some structure in my life. For at least a month.

Journals / Re: GoodSamaritan's Experiments
« on: July 26, 2010, 06:09:00 am »
I know you have done a series of liver flushes where the last ones were stone free. I wonder if you were to do one again now and see if you got anything out. Its been a long time since you have done one iirc.

The yolk has 5x as many carbs as the white 3.5% vs .7%.

I wish Dr. Harris and others would be upfront about their consumption. I feel as though they are purposefully hiding info. At least to me it does not feel genuine.  Perhaps others disagree?

Phil, have you ever monitored calories for any length of time? Have you ever experimented with overeating (while vlc) and monitoring your weight? It does seem at the least somewhat troublesome to me that you are 5'11 135 with some belly flab. Did you gain any weight when eating significant amounts of fruit? It would be likely that you gain a little bit of water weight with some carb consumption. I think you make an interesting case with such a low body-weight and perhaps poor absorption of calories, though otherwise in good health as reported. If you aren't gaining weight with excessive calories then it might be useful to measure the calorie content of your stool to see how much is passing through you. Maybe you have some huge parasites eating all your food?

I don't have any suggestions but have lots of questions so hopefully you can get to the bottom of this.


Yuri, I thought you were eating heaps of blackcurrants?

Instincto / Anopsology / Re: Suddenly reduced appetite for raw fat.
« on: July 26, 2010, 03:12:19 am »
How is your appetite for plant fats - coconut and avocado? And for that matter - all the different types of fats - suet, brains, marrow, back fat, fish fat, yolks? Does your appetite change for either one?

I'm going to guess edumecadedly and say the roe, skin and brains are high in fat, which is exactly what the bears need to store and discard the lean meat.

Alphagruis - Yea thanks, I got sloppy with explaining something I didn't know enough about. I didn't even think about what the energy source would be used for conversion. Now the numbers seem to make more sense.

Hanna, I didn't mean anything by optimal glucose really. I was just lazy with the keyboard and didn't produce enough words to explain what I meant. During starvation the minimum glucose requirement is somewhere around 50g/day. It would seem for the brain to function optimally, even during ZC, a bit more would be used, especially if there is intense activity going on.

What would be an interesting experiment (especially for someone like Lex, hint, hint...  :)) would be to continually lower protein consumption on a zero carb diet while keeping calories and activity level constant until there is a noticeable decline in lean mass. This might take a very long time to see but would give us a decent indication on what both daily protein needed to maintain nitrogen balance and glucose requirement would be for those of us who get almost all our protein from raw meats. Lex does well with just 90-100g of protein per day so almost surely he can go a bit lower. But, how low? I'm not sure I have seen anyone else here report their daily protein intake.

I agree that the focus on trying to "win" an argument is a tremendous driving force for the person delivering the post. Ego is an infectious bitch. I know before I submit a post whether or not I've thought about the perspective from the other person's vantage point. The structure of sentences change dramatically when I do so and are far less aggressive. There have been several occasions where I will go back and correct myself before submitting once I have calmed down. That said, I think alpha's statement from the beginning was implicitly qualified or at least thats how I took it and my initial reaction to your comments was that you were acting emotionally instead of with your normal good reasoning.

I do wish I could be more calm, thoughtful and rational when I post. It simply requires realizing that its ok to act accordingly without ego and then the post follows naturally. We all know how to deliver a thoughtful, insult-free post - its not hard to do. But this is a message board and so the ambiguity of communication with just words is inherently problematic. Message board words have very much scarred me in the past and so I know how much value there is in pleasant communication across these forums. I'll say its quite uplifting to not have any negativity or any purposeful communication that is intended to put someone down while making yourself look superior. I could easily be one of the worst at this because many, many times my initial reaction is to do harm. There is something quite appealing about making someone else look like a retard. Its a quick ego boost. Perhaps its just the usual misfiring of our fight-or-flight sequence that seems to do so poorly in modern society.

Andrew Carangie was right. His book, How to Win Friends and Influence People really makes a good case for making those around you feel special.

But your missing the larger real-world point that if one gets sick eating plant carbs the "energetic biochemical efficiency" is irrelevant. In other words, real world experience generally trumps high theory.

I don't believe he is missing your point or discounting your experience at all(not that you think he is). He did acknowledge the fact that some will benefit from no vegetation in the diet.

And we have no idea whether or not the "energetic biochemical inefficiency" will cause problems many years down the road with loads of excess protein being converted to glucose.  I don't see this as something to worry about in the beginning of the diet, say the first 5-10 years, but in my opinion should be something experimented with down the road. Literally no one has survived long term without some vegetation and even carnivores will consume greens and they are more completely adapted to a carnivorous diet and get the freshest non-domesticated animals with all the organs, blood and bones. So, even if these carnivores with their essentially "perfect" diets which are so much better than ours need greens once in a while it would make sense to me that humans do as well.

Hot Topics / Re: Why Can't We Be Friends?
« on: July 24, 2010, 04:01:02 am »
So you are going to liver flush now, right.   :o

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